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"Death is the door through which we must walk to the next phase of our existence." Is that made up rhetoric or is there any data to substantiate there is a plausible existence for a mind after it has decayed away ? The concept of heaven hell is a crude human invention to manipulate humans with the add on side effect that it often leads to psychological distress confusion ambivalence and imbalances | |||
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"Death is the door through which we must walk to the next phase of our existence. Is that made up rhetoric or is there any data to substantiate there is a plausible existence for a mind after it has decayed away ? The concept of heaven hell is a crude human invention to manipulate humans with the add on side effect that it often leads to psychological distress confusion ambivalence and imbalances" People like to think they matter, and if heaven (or a heavenlike concept) is something that enables them to face death more easily then I have no problem with it. The problem I DO have is when people in power use those concepts to keep others in line. | |||
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Maybe I'm just a cold bastard... | |||
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"Death is the door through which we must walk to the next phase of our existence. Is that made up rhetoric or is there any data to substantiate there is a plausible existence for a mind after it has decayed away ? The concept of heaven hell is a crude human invention to manipulate humans with the add on side effect that it often leads to psychological distress confusion ambivalence and imbalances People like to think they matter, and if heaven (or a heavenlike concept) is something that enables them to face death more easily then I have no problem with it. The problem I DO have is when people in power use those concepts to keep others in line." Ok ? So two concepts One , I may be judged and suffer Two ,I no longer experience any pain Which is rationally the most comforting | |||
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"It seems to have become trendy to knock people for their religious beliefs. I don't agree with having religion rammed down your throats but I also don't think atheism should be rammed down throats either and a bit of respect would be nice too." Non believers are often more evangelical than believers. My parents are practicing Christians. Its not for me, I have no time for it but I defend their right to live and believe what they want to as long as it harms nobody. | |||
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"It seems to have become trendy to knock people for their religious beliefs. I don't agree with having religion rammed down your throats but I also don't think atheism should be rammed down throats either and a bit of respect would be nice too. Non believers are often more evangelical than believers. My parents are practicing Christians. Its not for me, I have no time for it but I defend their right to live and believe what they want to as long as it harms nobody." Yep, I was brought up as a Catholic and my mum is heavily involved in the church. I don't think there's a single time I've seen her that she doesn't talk about religion  | |||
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"Death is the door through which we must walk to the next phase of our existence. Is that made up rhetoric or is there any data to substantiate there is a plausible existence for a mind after it has decayed away ? The concept of heaven hell is a crude human invention to manipulate humans with the add on side effect that it often leads to psychological distress confusion ambivalence and imbalances" This is belief, not rhetoric. You have to admit that there are many things in life that lie beyond the ability of modern science to explain or the human mind to comprehend. Why not in death also? You say there is no proof of it's existence, i would like to point out that, equally, there is no proof that it does not. I agree that the Christian invention of a heaven/hell afterlife is used to subjugate and manipulate it's followers but i see that only as man's corruption of a belief system, not proof that it is fake. | |||
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"It seems to have become trendy to knock people for their religious beliefs. I don't agree with having religion rammed down your throats but I also don't think atheism should be rammed down throats either and a bit of respect would be nice too." Here is a religious belief A woman should be forced to have a child after being r ped Here is another Gay men should be executed ,see Leviticus All beliefs that advocate inhuman behaviour should indeed be challenged be them Nazi philosophy or religious doctrine I will respect or not a person based upon their specific beliefs I feel it is sad for humanity that non substantiated belief systems are propagated as rational and reasonable coping strategies when far more effective non belief based philosophies can equip a human mind exceptionally well for all of the world's challenges Even the most devout will experience the confusing emotion of ambivalence when a Personal natural tragedy occurs When a really bad thing happens at least as an atheist I don't have to deal with the why question x | |||
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"Even the most devout will experience the confusing emotion of ambivalence when a Personal natural tragedy occurs When a really bad thing happens at least as an atheist I don't have to deal with the why question x" I don't think there is a huge difference between thinking 'god happens' and 'shit happens'. The problems occur when people are forced to feel guilty for it. Anyway, its long been a belief of mine (there's that pesky word again) that CoE followers are less into guilt and indulgences and more into hymns and fund raisers. | |||
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"Even the most devout will experience the confusing emotion of ambivalence when a Personal natural tragedy occurs When a really bad thing happens at least as an atheist I don't have to deal with the why question x I don't think there is a huge difference between thinking 'god happens' and 'shit happens'. The problems occur when people are forced to feel guilty for it. Anyway, its long been a belief of mine (there's that pesky word again) that CoE followers are less into guilt and indulgences and more into hymns and fund raisers." The Church of England's not into guilt because the Catholics have taken it all.  | |||
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"Even the most devout will experience the confusing emotion of ambivalence when a Personal natural tragedy occurs When a really bad thing happens at least as an atheist I don't have to deal with the why question x I don't think there is a huge difference between thinking 'god happens' and 'shit happens'. The problems occur when people are forced to feel guilty for it. Anyway, its long been a belief of mine (there's that pesky word again) that CoE followers are less into guilt and indulgences and more into hymns and fund raisers. The Church of England's not into guilt because the Catholics have taken it all. "You are aware c o e is also called protestant ? And that organisations like the dup a hard protestants some sects me the bronze age cult are indeed still very bronze age in their thinking | |||
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"Even the most devout will experience the confusing emotion of ambivalence when a Personal natural tragedy occurs When a really bad thing happens at least as an atheist I don't have to deal with the why question x I don't think there is a huge difference between thinking 'god happens' and 'shit happens'. The problems occur when people are forced to feel guilty for it. Anyway, its long been a belief of mine (there's that pesky word again) that CoE followers are less into guilt and indulgences and more into hymns and fund raisers. The Church of England's not into guilt because the Catholics have taken it all.
You are aware c o e is also called protestant ? And that organisations like the dup a hard protestants some sects me the bronze age cult are indeed still very bronze age in their thinking "I am aware but i'm not sure what you're getting at.  | |||
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"Even the most devout will experience the confusing emotion of ambivalence when a Personal natural tragedy occurs When a really bad thing happens at least as an atheist I don't have to deal with the why question x I don't think there is a huge difference between thinking 'god happens' and 'shit happens'. The problems occur when people are forced to feel guilty for it. Anyway, its long been a belief of mine (there's that pesky word again) that CoE followers are less into guilt and indulgences and more into hymns and fund raisers. The Church of England's not into guilt because the Catholics have taken it all.
You are aware c o e is also called protestant ? And that organisations like the dup a hard protestants some sects me the bronze age cult are indeed still very bronze age in their thinking
I am aware but i'm not sure what you're getting at. "I'm getting at Catholics do not hold the monopoly upon intolerant thinking ? | |||
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"Even the most devout will experience the confusing emotion of ambivalence when a Personal natural tragedy occurs When a really bad thing happens at least as an atheist I don't have to deal with the why question x I don't think there is a huge difference between thinking 'god happens' and 'shit happens'. The problems occur when people are forced to feel guilty for it. Anyway, its long been a belief of mine (there's that pesky word again) that CoE followers are less into guilt and indulgences and more into hymns and fund raisers. The Church of England's not into guilt because the Catholics have taken it all.
You are aware c o e is also called protestant ? And that organisations like the dup a hard protestants some sects me the bronze age cult are indeed still very bronze age in their thinking
I am aware but i'm not sure what you're getting at.
I'm getting at Catholics do not hold the monopoly upon intolerant thinking ?"I assume you're talking about Jews? | |||
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"Even the most devout will experience the confusing emotion of ambivalence when a Personal natural tragedy occurs When a really bad thing happens at least as an atheist I don't have to deal with the why question x I don't think there is a huge difference between thinking 'god happens' and 'shit happens'. The problems occur when people are forced to feel guilty for it. Anyway, its long been a belief of mine (there's that pesky word again) that CoE followers are less into guilt and indulgences and more into hymns and fund raisers. The Church of England's not into guilt because the Catholics have taken it all.
You are aware c o e is also called protestant ? And that organisations like the dup a hard protestants some sects me the bronze age cult are indeed still very bronze age in their thinking
I am aware but i'm not sure what you're getting at.
I'm getting at Catholics do not hold the monopoly upon intolerant thinking ?
I assume you're talking about Jews?"Erm no you assume most wrongly Are you reading a different thread to me It was suggested above that c of e is more tolerant and that Catholics have stolen the monopoly upon making its followers feel guilty ? I pointed out this is untrue , how the fuck did you twist that to insinuate I was referring to Judaism ? Which of course both the other sects and Islam both have based there bronze age morality on ? | |||
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"It seems to have become trendy to knock people for their religious beliefs. I don't agree with having religion rammed down your throats but I also don't think atheism should be rammed down throats either and a bit of respect would be nice too."  | |||
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"It seems to have become trendy to knock people for their religious beliefs. I don't agree with having religion rammed down your throats but I also don't think atheism should be rammed down throats either and a bit of respect would be nice too. "
However objective critical thinking whilst mutually engaged within a debate sounds quite reasonable xxx | |||
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"Heaven and hell is right here on earth and not some fictional place. We're in it. Living it." Maybe we are. Maybe we all get reincarnated each time. They can't prove or disprove. I'm all for people being happy in their own reality.  | |||
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"Are you going to be going on after death and going to heaven? Would you make a good born again Christian or other religious practitioner?" I think death is the end, there is nothing else.... I would make a terrible member of any organised religion
I do like the Discworld idea of Death though...
I respect other people's beliefs and know that believing you will go to a better place after death, is a great comfort to many.
However, I have problems with any who try to impose their views/beliefs on others and religions that use fear tactics.
Nita | |||
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"I had a very religious upbringing, I could quote you bible inside out & backwards. Do I believe in God? Yes. Not the man on the fluffy clouds, but I do believe there's a force, at work, and an equally opposite power working against it. Am I going to heaven? I don't think they'd have me" I don't believe in a force at work or a equal and opposite force I know they both exist One is gravity and it's opposite number dark energy I make no claim to know how they work but I see zero evidence that either has what humans would define as sentience ? God usually boils down to only one universally agreeable term and attribute most others are disputed and dismissed by other believers The single definable term would be sentient creator ie what we experience was designed Beyond that I as an atheist know there are forces that move matter thus the simple existence of mysterious forces a creator do not make xxx | |||
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"Even the most devout will experience the confusing emotion of ambivalence when a Personal natural tragedy occurs When a really bad thing happens at least as an atheist I don't have to deal with the why question x I don't think there is a huge difference between thinking 'god happens' and 'shit happens'. The problems occur when people are forced to feel guilty for it. Anyway, its long been a belief of mine (there's that pesky word again) that CoE followers are less into guilt and indulgences and more into hymns and fund raisers. The Church of England's not into guilt because the Catholics have taken it all.
You are aware c o e is also called protestant ? And that organisations like the dup a hard protestants some sects me the bronze age cult are indeed still very bronze age in their thinking
I am aware but i'm not sure what you're getting at.
I'm getting at Catholics do not hold the monopoly upon intolerant thinking ?
I assume you're talking about Jews?
Erm no you assume most wrongly
Are you reading a different thread to me
It was suggested above that c of e is more tolerant and that Catholics have stolen the monopoly upon making its followers feel guilty ? I pointed out this is untrue , how the fuck did you twist that to insinuate I was referring to Judaism ? Which of course both the other sects and Islam both have based there bronze age morality on ?"Simply because Judaism was founded in the Bronze Age and at the time was the only religion that adhered to the concept of heaven which is what this thread is about. What on earth were you referring to? | |||
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"Heaven and hell is right here on earth and not some fictional place. We're in it. Living it. Maybe we are. Maybe we all get reincarnated each time. They can't prove or disprove. I'm all for people being happy in their own reality. "Are you ? Really Surely you know that reality for some is all Brown people are sub human ? That r ped girls are sub human that Jews should be gassed ? Do you really think such own realities should be left unchallenged ? | |||
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But hey... people know the truth about EVERYTHING now. | |||
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"Are you going to be going on after death and going to heaven? Would you make a good born again Christian or other religious practitioner?" actually i am a born again Christian.. though definitely not a good one  | |||
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"Heaven and hell is right here on earth and not some fictional place. We're in it. Living it. Maybe we are. Maybe we all get reincarnated each time. They can't prove or disprove. I'm all for people being happy in their own reality.
Are you ? Really
Surely you know that reality for some is all Brown people are sub human ? That r ped girls are sub human that Jews should be gassed ? Do you really think such own realities should be left unchallenged ?"If they just think it in their heads I don't care, no. The second they go further than thinking - imposing their beliefs on other people or hurting them- then it's an issue. | |||
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"300 years ago the thought of people flying in the sky was witch talk. Utterly impossible and crazy.
But hey... people know the truth about EVERYTHING now. "? Truth is often subjective Some humans now understand more than they ever have , and part of that understanding is the understanding of how much more there may be to understand | |||
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"Heaven and hell is right here on earth and not some fictional place. We're in it. Living it. Maybe we are. Maybe we all get reincarnated each time. They can't prove or disprove. I'm all for people being happy in their own reality.
Are you ? Really
Surely you know that reality for some is all Brown people are sub human ? That r ped girls are sub human that Jews should be gassed ? Do you really think such own realities should be left unchallenged ?
If they just think it in their heads I don't care, no.
The second they go further than thinking - imposing their beliefs on other people or hurting them- then it's an issue. "Memes Ok so head thinking is ok 
How about word talking ? So they themselves may not enact such vile concepts but how about their rhetoric influencing the development of children leading then to whole groups of humans thinking and acting upon the meme that some colours of skin are less human than others | |||
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"300 years ago the thought of people flying in the sky was witch talk. Utterly impossible and crazy.
But hey... people know the truth about EVERYTHING now.
?
Truth is often subjective
Some humans now understand more than they ever have , and part of that understanding is the understanding of how much more there may be to understand
"Putting technonology aside i think it's safe to say as a race we have lost more knowledge than we have now. | |||
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"Heaven and hell is right here on earth and not some fictional place. We're in it. Living it. Maybe we are. Maybe we all get reincarnated each time. They can't prove or disprove. I'm all for people being happy in their own reality.
Are you ? Really
Surely you know that reality for some is all Brown people are sub human ? That r ped girls are sub human that Jews should be gassed ? Do you really think such own realities should be left unchallenged ?
If they just think it in their heads I don't care, no.
The second they go further than thinking - imposing their beliefs on other people or hurting them- then it's an issue.
Memes
Ok so head thinking is ok
How about word talking ? So they themselves may not enact such vile concepts but how about their rhetoric influencing the development of children leading then to whole groups of humans thinking and acting upon the meme that some colours of skin are less human than others "In your example that goes beyond just thinking it. They are influencing others. As I said. | |||
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"300 years ago the thought of people flying in the sky was witch talk. Utterly impossible and crazy.
But hey... people know the truth about EVERYTHING now.
?
Truth is often subjective
Some humans now understand more than they ever have , and part of that understanding is the understanding of how much more there may be to understand
Putting technonology aside i think it's safe to say as a race we have lost more knowledge than we have now."Taking that by safe you are suggesting it is fact I don't agree that is is a fact humanity as a whole knows less that it has before In fact I think we could easily illustrate why the statement is wild speculation and a most unsound one at that | |||
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"300 years ago the thought of people flying in the sky was witch talk. Utterly impossible and crazy.
But hey... people know the truth about EVERYTHING now.
?
Truth is often subjective
Some humans now understand more than they ever have , and part of that understanding is the understanding of how much more there may be to understand
Putting technonology aside i think it's safe to say as a race we have lost more knowledge than we have now.
Taking that by safe you are suggesting it is fact
I don't agree that is is a fact humanity as a whole knows less that it has before
In fact I think we could easily illustrate why the statement is wild speculation and a most unsound one at that "Please feel free to illustrate, and while you're at it please be so kind as to inform me to whom you were referring to my the earlier post regarding Judaism. | |||
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"I was expecting a little light hearted nonsense for the weekend. I'm not a believer of any faith, though I don't see the concept of either heaven or hell from the bible, perceiving it as particularly instilled by organized religions. I don't think it exists in the old testament as written nor taught by the Jesus of the new testament of the Christian religions. It seems more of perhaps some pagan belief system that got incorporated for the gains of more modern Christian systems. Perhaps it was about giving people a simple choice of follow and adhere to our way or get the terrible option for infinity (by the way, keep paying your dues). " Sorry about that, i get a bit carried away somtimes.  | |||
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"300 years ago the thought of people flying in the sky was witch talk. Utterly impossible and crazy.
But hey... people know the truth about EVERYTHING now.
?
Truth is often subjective
Some humans now understand more than they ever have , and part of that understanding is the understanding of how much more there may be to understand
Putting technonology aside i think it's safe to say as a race we have lost more knowledge than we have now.
Taking that by safe you are suggesting it is fact
I don't agree that is is a fact humanity as a whole knows less that it has before
In fact I think we could easily illustrate why the statement is wild speculation and a most unsound one at that
Please feel free to illustrate, and while you're at it please be so kind as to inform me to whom you were referring to my the earlier post regarding Judaism."Really , are you trolling ? It was written Anyway, its long been a belief of mine (there's that pesky word again) that CoE followers are less into guilt and indulgences and more into hymns and fund raisers. To which I replied You are aware C of E is also called protestant ? And that organisations like the dup a hard protestants some sects me the bronze age cult are indeed still very bronze age in their thinking If my point was not clear I apologise however I was sure it would be infered and understood to mean I think Catholics and the C of E are both capable of instilling guilt and lifestyle rules we may consider unreasonable or causes of division I also think both are able to sing and raise funds and promote peace Why Jews were mentioned I have zero idea , but as they were my opinion is the same they as a group are capable of love and hate As for Putting technonology aside i think it's safe to say as a race we have lost more knowledge than we have now Ok I'll illustrate why I said your assertion of "it is safe to say" was speculation and NOT safe , it is unknowable to know what has been lost as it's very state of lost means we cannot account (count) or quantify it This by default means any attempt to quantify is speculation However I suggest wild which indeed is speculation from my part and my basis for that is Whatever parameters you may set for the definition of knowledge that which could be quantified as such now would be subject to evolutionary concept thus within a humanity it's knowledge would increase exponentially where as it's loss of data would fall liner that can be evidenced by regarding how much knowledge humanity has gained and lost within the last 500 years In case you doubt I agree data has been lost , just not as much a you speculate x | |||
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"300 years ago the thought of people flying in the sky was witch talk. Utterly impossible and crazy.
But hey... people know the truth about EVERYTHING now.
?
Truth is often subjective
Some humans now understand more than they ever have , and part of that understanding is the understanding of how much more there may be to understand
Putting technonology aside i think it's safe to say as a race we have lost more knowledge than we have now.
Taking that by safe you are suggesting it is fact
I don't agree that is is a fact humanity as a whole knows less that it has before
In fact I think we could easily illustrate why the statement is wild speculation and a most unsound one at that
Please feel free to illustrate, and while you're at it please be so kind as to inform me to whom you were referring to my the earlier post regarding Judaism.
Really , are you trolling ?
It was written
Anyway, its long been a belief of mine (there's that pesky word again) that CoE followers are less into guilt and indulgences and more into hymns and fund raisers.
To which I replied
You are aware C of E is also called protestant ? And that organisations like the dup a hard protestants some sects me the bronze age cult are indeed still very bronze age in their thinking
If my point was not clear I apologise however I was sure it would be infered and understood to mean
I think Catholics and the C of E are both capable of instilling guilt and lifestyle rules we may consider unreasonable or causes of division
I also think both are able to sing and raise funds and promote peace
Why Jews were mentioned I have zero idea , but as they were my opinion is the same they as a group are capable of love and hate
As for
Putting technonology aside i think it's safe to say as a race we have lost more knowledge than we have now
Ok I'll illustrate why I said your assertion of "it is safe to say" was speculation and NOT safe
, it is unknowable to know what has been lost as it's very state of lost means we cannot account (count) or quantify it
This by default means any attempt to quantify is speculation
However I suggest wild which indeed is speculation from my part and my basis for that is
Whatever parameters you may set for the definition of knowledge that which could be quantified as such now would be subject to evolutionary concept thus within a humanity it's knowledge would increase exponentially where as it's loss of data would fall liner that can be evidenced by regarding how much knowledge humanity has gained and lost within the last 500 years
In case you doubt I agree data has been lost , just not as much a you speculate x
"Firstly, my post regarding Catholics and the CofE was intended as a joke. Secondly, my wish to know to whom you were referring was posted because you mentioned the Bronze Age and this is when Judaism was founded. If i made an incorrect assumption i apologise, yet the question remains unanswered. Thirdly, whilst i agree that there is a certain amount of speculation in my post vis-a-vis how much knowledge we have now compared to how much we have lost i think you are failing to take into account the amount of natural, spiritual and cosmic knowledge that has been swept aside since the onset of the Abrahamist religions. The quantity is of course unknowable yet compare the possibility to the spiritual desert we are faced with now. I am not trolling, this is merely a debate. I fail to understand why you have such a problem with it. I simply ask that people keep an open mind. | |||
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