FabSwingers.com forum: Illness and the NHS--

By *-and-K OP Couple
over a year ago

Back of Beyond

From the start I'll lay my own feelings on the line-- The NHS is there to provide care, irrespective of race, creed, religion or type of illness.

However sometimes I find that called into doubt. I work in the NHS and I'm responsible for making sure that medication is dispensed to patients at home direct from the supplier.

So today I am ordering and dispensing clotting agents for haemophiliacs, 7 patients and the medication totalled 111 thousand pounds, this for between 2 and 3 weeks supply

In one case a whopping £27,000 for medication for one child of 11 years old for 21 days supply.

Now you have to understand that in these cases this medication is needed until they die of natural causes (hopefully)

The implications if you work out the figures are quite astronomical. That is why the NHS costs so much nowadays.

But the point is, who makes the decisions? Look at the national news and see that the latest cancer drug that may save a life has been turned down, because it costs too much. A couple of treatments at £8000 each may save a life, but is turned down. Yet a patient requiring 20 something grand every couple of weeks can get it.

No rhyme, no reason to it. At the end of the day, I am glad that its not me sat in the ivory towers making such life or death decisions.

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By *iewMan
Forum Mod
over a year ago

Angus & Findhorn

I agree some very tough decisions to make.

I was at the hospital today for my routine eye check up. I have had the very best treatment from the NHS, I do have private health care but this condition was existing before my policy so not covered. I could not ask for better. My appointment was 3pm, I was taken at 2.50pm and back in my car at 3.15pm. I doubt it would be better private.

from me, a huge thumbs up to all involved in the NHS and thank you.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

The problem with a lot of these cancer treatments you mention is that they won't save a life, just give someone a few months extra life.

The decisions are made on clinical evidence, when a cancer drug is proven to work it is more likely to be given. The stuff for the haemophilliacs is known to work.

Another thing to consider is whether a cancer patient is going to get any reasonable quality of life following one of these drug treatments, or just a few extra months of pain and suffering.

As you say, it's not a nice job having to make these decisions, I am just glad that some people choose to do it for us.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

i wonder how much thyroxine is to buy the.. im on that for life

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I'm absolutley certain that the drugs companies need to charge so much for everything they do

After all have you seen the price of corporate events and holidays etc at the moment?

It must be tough at the top

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Both my friend and I were to be diagnosed for similar conditions, she went with BUPA I with the NHS.

I was taken into the clinic and they worked all day with me till 8.30pm and gave me all the results of my tests bar a biopsy there and then, plus a consultation with a surgeon and an appointment made for an op the following week.

She on the other hand had to go for her tests and a consultation over a period of a month. I had confirmation bar the biopsy result the same day and peace of mind, she worried for weeks wondering if she had cancer.

A big thank you to the NHS from me too. xxx

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By *iamondsmiles.Woman
over a year ago

little house on the praire

Ive just done a rough estimation of my medication, basing it on the fact ive just looked up the cost of one type.

It works out at 1.98 per tablet x 4 a day which works out at £2890 per year and im on 15 types of medication which if all the tablets cost around the same price works out to £43362 a year and thats not including the cost of my nurse to look after me and my specialist.

Personally i cant praise the nhs enough

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By *unky monkeyMan
over a year ago

in the night garden

The people on the ground in the NHS are fucking heroes!

I'm not sure about management. I've watched enough episodes of Casualty now to realise those bastards are all about figures!

and while I'm on it, just once I'd like to sit down to an episode of Casualty where they just all caught up on a bit of paper work and nothing much happened, that place is insane for disasters, murder and shit!!!

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By *he_original_poloWoman
over a year ago

a Primark shoebox in Leicester

"i wonder how much thyroxine is to buy the.. im on that for life "

Not a lot. Some online slimming clubs sell it as a weight loss aid.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"i wonder how much thyroxine is to buy the.. im on that for life

Not a lot. Some online slimming clubs sell it as a weight loss aid."

learn something new everyday

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

After seeing that it makes me wonder why people moan at the cost of prescriptions.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

to be totally frank the prople making teh decisions couldnt give a rats ass. They are the bean counters who look at how economically viable it is to provide them with such care. They look at how much and how long they will be able to ocntribute to the economy. But it is not their fault. The real fault lies with the pharmacutical companties who have even less regard for life. Rather than having a pill which is priced so that everyone can afford it, they price it out of the average joe. This means the NHS etc. will need to buy it and have to make the harsh decisions whhile the pharmacitical groups continue to realease record profilts of $1-$5 bn profits. It quite disgusting how much they make but they say its the amount they have spent on research to produce the drugs. I just hope no one in here is reliant on drugs and has to suffer.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

wooooooow.. just seen that for 30 X 100mcg tablets its £28.70 according to Steroid Central dot co dot uk ...

Im on 350mcg daily costing £3.35

over a year thats £1,222.75

A lot of money

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

When I worked at a hospital the drugs reps always had the best cars!

Somebody was making an awful lot of money, I dare say it has not changed a great deal

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By *he_original_poloWoman
over a year ago

a Primark shoebox in Leicester

What pisses me off are the people who don't pay the NHS levy for their prescription and use it to get paracetamol and aspirin.... rather than pay 16p for it over the counter.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I thank the workers of the NHS every day for the lives of my daughter and 2 of my grandchildren. We in the UK are so lucky to have it.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"When I worked at a hospital the drugs reps always had the best cars!

Somebody was making an awful lot of money, I dare say it has not changed a great deal"

i doubt it has. My friends wife is a drugs rep and she had a monthy budget which she had to use on whooing the hospitals and pharmacists. she had a great bmw (which was upgraded every 2 years) and a budget of around £1-2K for dinners for clients.

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By *hite SnakeMan
over a year ago

leeds

Maybe the NHS would have more money if they didnt treat people that come to the UK from abroad just to receive medical treatment instead of paying for it in their own countries.

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By *atisfy janeWoman
over a year ago

Torquay

The pharmaceutical companies make massive profits from drugs they sell to the NHS and the Private sector, but they also spend absolute fortunes on drug research and development.

R&D budgets for companies like Pfizer, GlaxoSmithKline, and Bayer etc. run into the hundreds of millions of pounds each year.....drugs don't invent themselves.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

My brother was a pharmacutical chemist for AstraZeneca and he said the medicines sold to the NHS cost fractions of the sale price to make. The main outlay for them is in the research and development that goes into them, after that it costs buttons to produce them. His bosses got payed fortunes, one of them got £200,000 bonus for working on one drug years after he left the company. Theres even bigger money in patenting drugs, his friends dad does that and he only needs to work 2 days a week, still amkes £150,000 plus.

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By *atisfy janeWoman
over a year ago

Torquay

"When I worked at a hospital the drugs reps always had the best cars!

Somebody was making an awful lot of money, I dare say it has not changed a great deal

Pharmacists don't get wooed by drug companies....decisions on drug purchases are taken far further up the ladder.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Doctors also get kick backs from drug companies for prescribing their brand of 'costaCure' over another company's.

The NHS has some wonderful success stories, as borne out on this thread, but overall it is a creaking institution who's time has passed and has no place in our economic migrant friendly system.

I'd scrap the whole thing entirely and initiate a new system whereby 1% of our National Insurance contributions goes solely to a healthcare system free of cumbersome administrators, and accountable to and run by GPs. I would also make it a criminal offence for doctors to accept payments for prescribing one drug over another.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

The NHS is not a bottomless pit of money, so there have to be decision makers at the top to deal with the costings.

There seems to be money wasted though. You only have to look at some GPs and their prescription process. Some GPs forget to take certain short term medications of patients prescriptions who are also receiving regular meds and these unwanted medications are dispensed unnecessarily.

I have high BP so take regular medication and pick up my script once a month. One month I had a urine infection and was prescribed a course of antibiotics. Sure enough the following month the antibiotics appeared on my script along with my BP meds and had I not pointed this out to them I could still be receiving these drugs along with the ones I need.

This happens a lot with older peoples scripts and lots of old folk pick up unnecessary medication and horde it. Its an incredibly expensive waste and bloody dangerous to boot

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

..and the only beneficiaries of it should be those who contribute to it.

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By *he_original_poloWoman
over a year ago

a Primark shoebox in Leicester

Pharmacists don't get wooed by drug companies....decisions on drug purchases are taken far further up the ladder."

Oh yes they do. So much so that the government cut millions out of the national dispensing budget to try to claw some of it back.

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By *atisfy janeWoman
over a year ago

Torquay

Doctors (GP's) haven't had the power to differentiate between Generic and Branded drugs for years now, not since the advent of Primary Care Trusts (In England and Wales at least).

It's an urban myth to suggest that GP's any longer earn big kick backs from drug prescribing, those decisions are taken by the PCT and have been for an awful long time.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

As you can see ime in nhs hands for a while.having the best treatment, cant fault it.My daughter who has learning difficulties has been diagnosed with overactive thyroid and the treat her like a queen, explaining everything to her.Shes going to have the radioactive iodine to get rid of it for good as shes diabetic.The nhs is there when you need it and is second to none.I think it could cut medication bill by refusing to pay the drug companys the price they charge.Wow thats a rave isnt it? lol.

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By *atisfy janeWoman
over a year ago

Torquay

Pharmacists don't get wooed by drug companies....decisions on drug purchases are taken far further up the ladder.

Oh yes they do. So much so that the government cut millions out of the national dispensing budget to try to claw some of it back."

No....they don't.

Those days are long gone

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By *he_original_poloWoman
over a year ago

a Primark shoebox in Leicester

"Doctors (GP's) haven't had the power to differentiate between Generic and Branded drugs for years now, not since the advent of Primary Care Trusts (In England and Wales at least).

It's an urban myth to suggest that GP's any longer earn big kick backs from drug prescribing, those decisions are taken by the PCT and have been for an awful long time."

Just wait for the GP Consortiums.

Plenty of GP's have their *cough* preferred brands rather than prescribing medication by the generic name.

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By *iamondsmiles.Woman
over a year ago

little house on the praire

Doctors also get kick backs from drug companies for prescribing their brand of 'costaCure' over another company's

Is that true? I thought it was up to the pharmacist, cause they try and fob me off with the generic tablets.

Some of those made me violently sick and the doctor had to sort it out for me to get my "proper" brand back

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Doctors (GP's) haven't had the power to differentiate between Generic and Branded drugs for years now, not since the advent of Primary Care Trusts (In England and Wales at least).

It's an urban myth to suggest that GP's any longer earn big kick backs from drug prescribing, those decisions are taken by the PCT and have been for an awful long time."

..and there is no abuse of that system? Anywhere? Hmmm..

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Doctors also get kick backs from drug companies for prescribing their brand of 'costaCure' over another company's

Is that true? I thought it was up to the pharmacist, cause they try and fob me off with the generic tablets.

Some of those made me violently sick and the doctor had to sort it out for me to get my "proper" brand back"

All you have to say to the chemist is "I'm sure my doctor knows what is best for me so I'll take the meds he has prescribed thank you."

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By *he_original_poloWoman
over a year ago

a Primark shoebox in Leicester

Pharmacists don't get wooed by drug companies....decisions on drug purchases are taken far further up the ladder.

Oh yes they do. So much so that the government cut millions out of the national dispensing budget to try to claw some of it back.

No....they don't.

Those days are long gone"

No... the millions taken out of the money pharmacists claim back for dispensing an item has long gone... and it was taken out because the government knows companies such as Lloyds Pharmacy make a few million in kick backs every year.

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By *atisfy janeWoman
over a year ago

Torquay

"Doctors (GP's) haven't had the power to differentiate between Generic and Branded drugs for years now, not since the advent of Primary Care Trusts (In England and Wales at least).

It's an urban myth to suggest that GP's any longer earn big kick backs from drug prescribing, those decisions are taken by the PCT and have been for an awful long time.

Just wait for the GP Consortiums.

Plenty of GP's have their *cough* preferred brands rather than prescribing medication by the generic name."

When this government abolishes PCT's in the next couple of years, they will indeed hand back almost total control over drug brand prescribing to GP's and Practice Management Committees.

That is when the old practice of drug company 'sweeteners' will start up again...it has been kept relatively under control for the last decade....but the loss of PCT's and SHA's will see it come back again.

Fiddles always follow Tory governments around like a bad smell.....no change there then.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I'm absolutley certain that the drugs companies need to charge so much for everything they do

After all have you seen the price of corporate events and holidays etc at the moment?

It must be tough at the top "

I agree there, its everything thats bought by anything 'civil' though.... from office chairs, to drugs, to copier paper, its all at highly inflated prices.

I know a lot of R&D goes into making the cancer and HIV drugs etc but wouldnt it be better long term if non profit making trusts were set up to develop the drugs?

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By *iamondsmiles.Woman
over a year ago

little house on the praire

"Doctors also get kick backs from drug companies for prescribing their brand of 'costaCure' over another company's

Is that true? I thought it was up to the pharmacist, cause they try and fob me off with the generic tablets.

Some of those made me violently sick and the doctor had to sort it out for me to get my "proper" brand back

All you have to say to the chemist is "I'm sure my doctor knows what is best for me so I'll take the meds he has prescribed thank you.""

I think i worded it wrong, one of my tablet has a generic name, and i always had the branded version, one month i got my script and they had changed it to something else, i had to wait for the doctor to re type my script to name the brand that i needed before they would change it

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By *he_original_poloWoman
over a year ago

a Primark shoebox in Leicester

Is that true? I thought it was up to the pharmacist, cause they try and fob me off with the generic tablets."

The pharmasist can only prescribe what the GP writes, unless the GP agrees to change it. If they use a branded drug name they have to supply that. If they use the generic drug name, they have the choice of which generic version to stock.

Don't panic... if your medication is swapped from branded to generic... it will be exactly the same drug and exactly the same quantity... just costs the NHS less.

It's no different to Nurofen (branded) and Ibuprofen (generic).

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By *iamondsmiles.Woman
over a year ago

little house on the praire

Is that true? I thought it was up to the pharmacist, cause they try and fob me off with the generic tablets.

Don't panic... if your medication is swapped from branded to generic... it will be exactly the same drug and exactly the same quantity... just costs the NHS less.

It's no different to Nurofen (branded) and Ibuprofen (generic)."

The one they changed mine to stunk and made me sick but i got the other one back so it was ok in the end

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By *atisfy janeWoman
over a year ago

Torquay

Allow me to tell you how drug prescribing by private pharmacies (Boots Lloyds) works in England and Wales.

Pharmacies like Lloyds for instance stock the drugs that SHA's and to a lesser extent PCT's place on their approved list.

That means that only those drugs (Brand or Generic) are stocked on the approved P-Med lists released on a monthly basis to pharmacies....these P-Med lists are distributed by Strategic Health Authorities (SHA's)....and to a lesser extent Primary Care Trusts (PCT's).

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By *-and-K OP Couple
over a year ago

Back of Beyond

Pharmacists don't get wooed by drug companies....decisions on drug purchases are taken far further up the ladder."

Eeeerrr yes they do! Not a fortnight goes by without some drug rep putting in an appearance and supplying all the nosh for staff lunches in our pharmacy.

This is done in the hope of influencing the senior pharmacists and technicians (130 staff so not cheap to do) into pushing for their particular product.

Of course should they decide to 'adopt' a product, it then has to go before the clinical governance board of medical directors. It is they who make the final decision on whether our Trust offers a particular drug via its two pharmacies.

But as you say, the days of taking the chief pharmacists out for private dinners did stop 4 years ago. It took national regulation of the nhs and drug companies via corruption laws to stop it though.

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By *he_original_poloWoman
over a year ago

a Primark shoebox in Leicester

If GP's are following the PCT's guidelines, they should not be prescribing branded medication if generic is available.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

would it not be cheaper for the NHS to start producing their own medications if its cheaper than buying it in

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

there's copyright protections on the drugs so it would be almost impossible

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By *atisfy janeWoman
over a year ago

Torquay

I'll leave the arguing to others now, I know that I am right regarding the purchasing of drugs by Independent Pharmacies because I spent long enough at the sharp end of it to know I am right.....so pointless me banging my head against the wall over it.

If a hospital operates within the NHS then drug purchasing is handled by SHA's and has been since 1998.

I'll leave the arguing to those who haven't worked in the area but are poitive they MUST be right.

Not aimed at B&K though.....

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By *atisfy janeWoman
over a year ago

Torquay

"If GP's are following the PCT's guidelines, they should not be prescribing branded medication if generic is available.

Wrong again....sorry but that isn't always so.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Jane you should work in goverment you know everything about everything

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By *he_original_poloWoman
over a year ago

a Primark shoebox in Leicester

"Allow me to tell you how drug prescribing by private pharmacies (Boots Lloyds) works in England and Wales.

Pharmacies like Lloyds for instance stock the drugs that SHA's and to a lesser extent PCT's place on their approved list.

And I am sure you are aware of just how many options for each generic medication there are, how few of those medications a pharmacy will stock and how the wholesalers choose stock and what happens when the suppliers can't supply.... you'll also know what 'NCSA' written on a prescription means.

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By *atisfy janeWoman
over a year ago

Torquay

"Jane you should work in goverment you know everything about everything

Most of my adult working life working in Pharmacy.....turned to Chocolate when I couldn't take any more.

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By *he_original_poloWoman
over a year ago

a Primark shoebox in Leicester

"I'll leave the arguing to others now, I know that I am right regarding the purchasing of drugs by Independent Pharmacies because I spent long enough at the sharp end of it to know I am right.....so pointless me banging my head against the wall over it.

If a hospital operates within the NHS then drug purchasing is handled by SHA's and has been since 1998.

I'll leave the arguing to those who haven't worked in the area but are poitive they MUST be right.

Ermmmm... I do work in the area.

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By *b430Man
over a year ago

Tayside

"Allow me to tell you how drug prescribing by private pharmacies (Boots Lloyds) works in England and Wales.

Pharmacies like Lloyds for instance stock the drugs that SHA's and to a lesser extent PCT's place on their approved list.

I know the answer - But am I allowed to say it before others though?

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By *ugby 123Couple
Forum Mod
over a year ago

O o O oo

oh go on then , seems no one else is

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By *b430Man
over a year ago

Tayside

[Removed by poster at 22/08/11 19:46:32]

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By *b430Man
over a year ago

Tayside

"oh go on then , seems no one else is

ok seeing as you asked so nicely

No Cheaper Stock Available, it can also be NCSO the O meaning Obtainable

* Typed a wrong word in last version and there was me trying to be a smart-ass too *

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

So pharmaceutical reps and researchers have highly paid jobs. At least they're serving the country.

As a comparison do footballers deserve what they're paid? You don't see anyone who coughs up for a season ticket complaining about that but if they have to fork out for the price of a prescription which is a token amount for most drugs then its scandalous.

We get more out of the NHS than we ever pay into it during our lifetime.

Personally I'd like the abusers of the system taken out of the picture just one example is binge drinking revellers and those who turn up in casualty with minor injuries that certainly need no more than a sticking plaster. Hand them a bill for their self inflicted nuisance visits and they will sharp stop behaving in such a shameful manner.

I do not believe anyone with diet or lifestyle illnesses that evolve have the right to be refused treatment in saying this, incase anyone was wondering. I mean non urgent cases that can be seen by a gp or require no medical intervention really. Also those who get a prescription and have no intention of taking the drug - that happens a lot too.

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By *phroditeWoman
over a year ago

(She/ her) in Sensualityland

I had to go to A & E recently and while I was expecting and prepared to be a low priority as my problem was not life threatening, to wait hours before being seen. Both my partner and I could not praise the service enough, I was seen within 5 minutes of my arrival and left the place within about 20 minutes, armed with the appropriate medication and advice. The senior practitioner took a shine to my partner and this cost us another 10 minutes as they were bantering... but overall the service was simply awesome and unrivalled by my private medical cover.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"The NHS is not a bottomless pit of money, so there have to be decision makers at the top to deal with the costings.

This happens a lot with older peoples scripts and lots of old folk pick up unnecessary medication and horde it. Its an incredibly expensive waste and bloody dangerous to boot "

I'm on a cocktail of drugs. Have been since 2002. I send in a repeat prescription, if I don't send it in it isn't sent to the chemist. I can only send in two request the third I have to see my gp.

I had a bout of labyrinthitis and needed medication for that: a one off. No way would I be able to get that again without my gp imaging it!

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By *iamondsmiles.Woman
over a year ago

little house on the praire

"The NHS is not a bottomless pit of money, so there have to be decision makers at the top to deal with the costings.

This happens a lot with older peoples scripts and lots of old folk pick up unnecessary medication and horde it. Its an incredibly expensive waste and bloody dangerous to boot

I'm on a cocktail of drugs. Have been since 2002. I send in a repeat prescription, if I don't send it in it isn't sent to the chemist. I can only send in two request the third I have to see my gp.

I had a bout of labyrinthitis and needed medication for that: a one off. No way would I be able to get that again without my gp imaging it! "

Different areas must do it differently as i never have to see my doctor about my prescriptions, once a year i officially get my medication checked by the gp. If my specialist adds more he just sends a letter to the doctor and its on the next script. Never really see him

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By *he_original_poloWoman
over a year ago

a Primark shoebox in Leicester

"Allow me to tell you how drug prescribing by private pharmacies (Boots Lloyds) works in England and Wales.

Pharmacies like Lloyds for instance stock the drugs that SHA's and to a lesser extent PCT's place on their approved list.

Sorry I had been for something to eat and nipped out for a bit. Now let me explain how it works, as it seems you have been selling chocolate for a while....

It only seems like yesterday we were calling it the New Pharmacy Contract, but it was actually what, six years ago?

Anyway, not for the first time the government said we know the manufacturers list prices don’t actually reflect what you bad boy pharmacist pay for this shit and the more of it you buy the cheaper you get it, so we’re gonna knock another few percent off of what we reimburse you… oh have we done that to you more than once already? Tough! We know you get kickbacks!

And in our new contract we are gonna pay you less for the basic dispensing and some other stuff, but we will give you a chance to make some of this money back if you deliver advanced and enhanced services on top of the essential ones. Well pay you £25 per MUR to a maximum number of 200, for example (it’s now gone up to £28 and a maximum of 400). We are kind like that, we may be screwing you down with the dispensing fees and the Drug Tariff, but I’m sure you’ll find a way to make something from broken bulk, endorsement of smaller pack sizes and so on. And after all, when we list a generic name on the price list, it’s up to you where you buy it from isn’t it…. you can still make a few quid if you shop around and get your guys to stick to ordering slower moving lines directly from your preferred suppliers, you know, the ones where you have a good deal going.

The Secretary of State will determine the prices you lot can claim for category A and B drugs by averaging the prices listed by a number of manufacturers and suppliers …. Oh hold on a minute! Do any of these suppliers also own a lot of community pharmacies? They do! Well we’ll need to weight their price lists then.

Extemporaneously prepared items, well you don’t do so many of those anymore so we’ll leave a few loop holes in that one for you.

As for category M drugs, we are sure you’ll work out dispensing two tubes of aqueous cream instead of one large pot will make you a bit of extra money and again if you shop around and find the right supplier you can make a bit of dosh there too…. after all we don’t say who’s aqueous cream it needs to be; we just average the list prices of less than a dozen manufacturers and suppliers – hey you are probably the supplier as well don’t forget…. you should talk to a few of the manufacturers and sort something out… oh no scrub that… that’s what we are trying to stop isn’t it.

Yeah we know it will be worse for the smaller guys out there, but hey, you bad boys need to stop making six figure net profit just from kickbacks…. unless you are gonna share more of it with us! We know you have started hiding it as ‘sponsorship deals’… like we believe that drug company really just gave you £20k for a two day conference out of the goodness of their heart.

Do you really think these companies just sat back and accepted a six to seven figure hit on their bottom line without working their socks off to find a way around it?

What’s more, who sits on the various advisory committees?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

The common cold.

Anyone else believe the cure exists but the politics of bringing it out versus the millions made on the various "you'll feel ok every 4 hours" medicines prevent it ever happening?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"The common cold.

Anyone else believe the cure exists but the politics of bringing it out versus the millions made on the various "you'll feel ok every 4 hours" medicines prevent it ever happening?

Don't think it's just cold cures either xx

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