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POF Prat

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By (user no longer on site) OP   
over a year ago

My PoF account blew up last week.. for no reason.. getting contacted out the blue. I got a total of five women contact me.. which is abnormal. All I did different was delete the text.. and ended up with a naughty suggestion.

But this happens on rare occasions. Six months go by.. nothing.

I've also sparked up a few conversations on FAB.. and had sex twice in one weekend.. almost with three different people. I'm not bragging.. Admittedly.. I shouldn't shout it out! With such a smile on my face

I got to thinking.. I WAS bragging about pulling women on PoF and onto Fab.. well I wasn't.. because I've not.. not knowingly. But I love sharing that info to someone I'm unsure how they'll react..

I just read a post.. and realised nearly every single female on here.. is likely to be on another dating site of sorts.. IF they're open to love.. maybe.

And think it's possible a lot of the PoF contacts this week may have been teases and probes from FABSTERS.. because the most elusive and alluring disappeared without a trace and without the usual excuses..

Is it possible I've had a little inter-platform mind fuckery made against me? Is this the first wave of attack? Has my arrogance returned to bite? Can I trust PoF now? I was a fool... I'm still learning! Have pity on me

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By (user no longer on site) OP   
over a year ago


"My PoF account blew up last week.. for no reason.. getting contacted out the blue. I got a total of five women contact me.. which is abnormal. All I did different was delete the text.. and ended up with a naughty suggestion.

But this happens on rare occasions. Six months go by.. nothing.

I've also sparked up a few conversations on FAB.. and had sex twice in one weekend.. almost with three different people. I'm not bragging.. Admittedly.. I shouldn't shout it out! With such a smile on my face

I got to thinking.. I WAS bragging about pulling women on PoF and onto Fab.. well I wasn't.. because I've not.. not knowingly. But I love sharing that info to someone I'm unsure how they'll react..

I just read a post.. and realised nearly every single female on here.. is likely to be on another dating site of sorts.. IF they're open to love.. maybe.

And think it's possible a lot of the PoF contacts this week may have been teases and probes from FABSTERS.. because the most elusive and alluring disappeared without a trace and without the usual excuses..

Is it possible I've had a little inter-platform mind fuckery made against me? Is this the first wave of attack? Has my arrogance returned to bite? Can I trust PoF now? I was a fool... I'm still learning! Have pity on me "

Forgot what I wanted to ask!

If You use both sites.. do you take much notice of the others who pop up on both. Has anyone messaged you in that way? Would you accept one not the other?

enlighten me please

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By *orum TrollWoman
over a year ago

•+• Access Denied •+•

yes i get the idiots who don't read my POF profile and presume i will meet them for NSA sex.

it wouldn't bother me if they were on either site, or loads of sites. but if they think i'm up for a fuck when my profile said* otherwise they are fucking dumb as shit.

*said coz i don't have a profile now so it's not says.

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By *orum TrollWoman
over a year ago

•+• Access Denied •+•

oh handy tip. go into profile settings and then mail settings and put a limit on the amount of characters in mails that have to be sent.

that gets rid of most of shit.

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By (user no longer on site) OP   
over a year ago


"oh handy tip. go into profile settings and then mail settings and put a limit on the amount of characters in mails that have to be sent.

that gets rid of most of shit."

I'm happy with the number of messages I get thanks please don't cut them down

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By *orum TrollWoman
over a year ago

•+• Access Denied •+•


"oh handy tip. go into profile settings and then mail settings and put a limit on the amount of characters in mails that have to be sent.

that gets rid of most of shit.

I'm happy with the number of messages I get thanks please don't cut them down "

that was more for anyone wanting to get rid of the shit.

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By (user no longer on site) OP   
over a year ago


"yes i get the idiots who don't read my POF profile and presume i will meet them for NSA sex.

it wouldn't bother me if they were on either site, or loads of sites. but if they think i'm up for a fuck when my profile said* otherwise they are fucking dumb as shit.

*said coz i don't have a profile now so it's not says."

My first meet for sex post marriage was with a pof/fabster. I had messaged her on FAB and been totally ignored. So I didn't bother trying again.. for all the reasons you mentioned.. plus I thought it a bit below the privacy line. I changed my status about on PoF and she messaged me! on PoF!

We spoke for a long time.. she even slipped once and said fab instead of PoF. I daren't tell her I knew. Not yet.. then she video chatted me out the blue no warning.. flirted heavily and came on to me a little. We said goodnight.

she made me laugh so much I felt so guilty I hadn't told her.. I thought the slip up was a test maybe as well. I sent her a message to read in the morning..

She thought it was the funniest thing ever! Much to my relief.. especially when I told her she'd ignored my first and only message. She'd genuinely slipped up when she said Fab.

Since then I always contact through PoF if I think they're on both.. but I think women can be very hard to tell if they are on both or not.

I'm easily recognisable if you were on both.. on purpose.. to show I'm not being sly, or shy, or false. But I suspect not everyone is.. and that could lead to mixed messages.

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By *orum TrollWoman
over a year ago

•+• Access Denied •+•


"yes i get the idiots who don't read my POF profile and presume i will meet them for NSA sex.

it wouldn't bother me if they were on either site, or loads of sites. but if they think i'm up for a fuck when my profile said* otherwise they are fucking dumb as shit.

*said coz i don't have a profile now so it's not says.

My first meet for sex post marriage was with a pof/fabster. I had messaged her on FAB and been totally ignored. So I didn't bother trying again.. for all the reasons you mentioned.. plus I thought it a bit below the privacy line. I changed my status about on PoF and she messaged me! on PoF!

We spoke for a long time.. she even slipped once and said fab instead of PoF. I daren't tell her I knew. Not yet.. then she video chatted me out the blue no warning.. flirted heavily and came on to me a little. We said goodnight.

she made me laugh so much I felt so guilty I hadn't told her.. I thought the slip up was a test maybe as well. I sent her a message to read in the morning..

She thought it was the funniest thing ever! Much to my relief.. especially when I told her she'd ignored my first and only message. She'd genuinely slipped up when she said Fab.

Since then I always contact through PoF if I think they're on both.. but I think women can be very hard to tell if they are on both or not.

I'm easily recognisable if you were on both.. on purpose.. to show I'm not being sly, or shy, or false. But I suspect not everyone is.. and that could lead to mixed messages."

i get some people probably aren't after anything much different on either site, but my profiles both specified what i was looking for. and it was different things.

there's another topic on here about POF and i said i would hide myself on here if i tried dating again, and i would coz pretty much everyone is only open to NSA sex when they seen you're looking for it somewhere else. guys don't get that you might have one type for dating, coz that's deeper than a fuck where you need stimulation on a much more shallow but higher basis for NSA.

i wanna say so much more but know what i say will be highly offensive to some people who can't help what they are. i will leave it at if people would stop being so selfish and started considering what other people actually want then it'd save a lot of angst.

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By *risky_MareWoman
over a year ago

...Up on the Downs


"

If You use both sites.. do you take much notice of the others who pop up on both. Has anyone messaged you in that way? Would you accept one not the other?

"

Doesn't worry me, there's lots of people using fabs 'meanwhile' and of someone is truly open to the possibility of a relationship then I am more interested, wherever they pop up. They're usually pretty up front about having seen me on the other site too.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"yes i get the idiots who don't read my POF profile and presume i will meet them for NSA sex.

it wouldn't bother me if they were on either site, or loads of sites. but if they think i'm up for a fuck when my profile said* otherwise they are fucking dumb as shit.

*said coz i don't have a profile now so it's not says.

My first meet for sex post marriage was with a pof/fabster. I had messaged her on FAB and been totally ignored. So I didn't bother trying again.. for all the reasons you mentioned.. plus I thought it a bit below the privacy line. I changed my status about on PoF and she messaged me! on PoF!

We spoke for a long time.. she even slipped once and said fab instead of PoF. I daren't tell her I knew. Not yet.. then she video chatted me out the blue no warning.. flirted heavily and came on to me a little. We said goodnight.

she made me laugh so much I felt so guilty I hadn't told her.. I thought the slip up was a test maybe as well. I sent her a message to read in the morning..

She thought it was the funniest thing ever! Much to my relief.. especially when I told her she'd ignored my first and only message. She'd genuinely slipped up when she said Fab.

Since then I always contact through PoF if I think they're on both.. but I think women can be very hard to tell if they are on both or not.

I'm easily recognisable if you were on both.. on purpose.. to show I'm not being sly, or shy, or false. But I suspect not everyone is.. and that could lead to mixed messages.

i get some people probably aren't after anything much different on either site, but my profiles both specified what i was looking for. and it was different things.

there's another topic on here about POF and i said i would hide myself on here if i tried dating again, and i would coz pretty much everyone is only open to NSA sex when they seen you're looking for it somewhere else. guys don't get that you might have one type for dating, coz that's deeper than a fuck where you need stimulation on a much more shallow but higher basis for NSA.

i wanna say so much more but know what i say will be highly offensive to some people who can't help what they are. i will leave it at if people would stop being so selfish and started considering what other people actually want then it'd save a lot of angst."

No I think it's interesting keep going. I just joined pof again too but a bit different this time as I know what I want.

It would be great to meet someone like minded on pof, or here for that matter. I think if I did meet someone who was on here too though I would stop fab while we got to know each other and then hopefully start it up together.

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By *orum TrollWoman
over a year ago

•+• Access Denied •+•


"yes i get the idiots who don't read my POF profile and presume i will meet them for NSA sex.

it wouldn't bother me if they were on either site, or loads of sites. but if they think i'm up for a fuck when my profile said* otherwise they are fucking dumb as shit.

*said coz i don't have a profile now so it's not says.

My first meet for sex post marriage was with a pof/fabster. I had messaged her on FAB and been totally ignored. So I didn't bother trying again.. for all the reasons you mentioned.. plus I thought it a bit below the privacy line. I changed my status about on PoF and she messaged me! on PoF!

We spoke for a long time.. she even slipped once and said fab instead of PoF. I daren't tell her I knew. Not yet.. then she video chatted me out the blue no warning.. flirted heavily and came on to me a little. We said goodnight.

she made me laugh so much I felt so guilty I hadn't told her.. I thought the slip up was a test maybe as well. I sent her a message to read in the morning..

She thought it was the funniest thing ever! Much to my relief.. especially when I told her she'd ignored my first and only message. She'd genuinely slipped up when she said Fab.

Since then I always contact through PoF if I think they're on both.. but I think women can be very hard to tell if they are on both or not.

I'm easily recognisable if you were on both.. on purpose.. to show I'm not being sly, or shy, or false. But I suspect not everyone is.. and that could lead to mixed messages.

i get some people probably aren't after anything much different on either site, but my profiles both specified what i was looking for. and it was different things.

there's another topic on here about POF and i said i would hide myself on here if i tried dating again, and i would coz pretty much everyone is only open to NSA sex when they seen you're looking for it somewhere else. guys don't get that you might have one type for dating, coz that's deeper than a fuck where you need stimulation on a much more shallow but higher basis for NSA.

i wanna say so much more but know what i say will be highly offensive to some people who can't help what they are. i will leave it at if people would stop being so selfish and started considering what other people actually want then it'd save a lot of angst.

No I think it's interesting keep going. I just joined pof again too but a bit different this time as I know what I want.

It would be great to meet someone like minded on pof, or here for that matter. I think if I did meet someone who was on here too though I would stop fab while we got to know each other and then hopefully start it up together.

"

i can't keep going, honestly. it'd just be a rant about the shitty kind of guys who expect NSA sex off me on a dating site and it would be highly offensive.

i'm just putting this experience behind me and i have no interest in NSA sex at all now.

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By *orum TrollWoman
over a year ago

•+• Access Denied •+•

and that's a good point about taking a break from fab too, to get to know someone. i'd do the same and totally expect that from a guy who is considering a relationship with me.

wish you well and good luck.

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By *ieman300Man
over a year ago

Best Greggs in Cheshire East


"yes i get the idiots who don't read my POF profile and presume i will meet them for NSA sex.

it wouldn't bother me if they were on either site, or loads of sites. but if they think i'm up for a fuck when my profile said* otherwise they are fucking dumb as shit.

*said coz i don't have a profile now so it's not says.

My first meet for sex post marriage was with a pof/fabster. I had messaged her on FAB and been totally ignored. So I didn't bother trying again.. for all the reasons you mentioned.. plus I thought it a bit below the privacy line. I changed my status about on PoF and she messaged me! on PoF!

We spoke for a long time.. she even slipped once and said fab instead of PoF. I daren't tell her I knew. Not yet.. then she video chatted me out the blue no warning.. flirted heavily and came on to me a little. We said goodnight.

she made me laugh so much I felt so guilty I hadn't told her.. I thought the slip up was a test maybe as well. I sent her a message to read in the morning..

She thought it was the funniest thing ever! Much to my relief.. especially when I told her she'd ignored my first and only message. She'd genuinely slipped up when she said Fab.

Since then I always contact through PoF if I think they're on both.. but I think women can be very hard to tell if they are on both or not.

I'm easily recognisable if you were on both.. on purpose.. to show I'm not being sly, or shy, or false. But I suspect not everyone is.. and that could lead to mixed messages.

i get some people probably aren't after anything much different on either site, but my profiles both specified what i was looking for. and it was different things.

there's another topic on here about POF and i said i would hide myself on here if i tried dating again, and i would coz pretty much everyone is only open to NSA sex when they seen you're looking for it somewhere else. guys don't get that you might have one type for dating, coz that's deeper than a fuck where you need stimulation on a much more shallow but higher basis for NSA.

i wanna say so much more but know what i say will be highly offensive to some people who can't help what they are. i will leave it at if people would stop being so selfish and started considering what other people actually want then it'd save a lot of angst.

No I think it's interesting keep going. I just joined pof again too but a bit different this time as I know what I want.

It would be great to meet someone like minded on pof, or here for that matter. I think if I did meet someone who was on here too though I would stop fab while we got to know each other and then hopefully start it up together.

i can't keep going, honestly. it'd just be a rant about the shitty kind of guys who expect NSA sex off me on a dating site and it would be highly offensive.

i'm just putting this experience behind me and i have no interest in NSA sex at all now."

Offensive to who? If you wanna get your ya yas out go for it.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"and that's a good point about taking a break from fab too, to get to know someone. i'd do the same and totally expect that from a guy who is considering a relationship with me.

wish you well and good luck."

I expect that feeling for nsa comes and goes, it does with me. Online dating certainly has its bad points as well as good ones.

Cool cheers I wish me luck too 0

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By *icoleAndLisaTransTV/TS
over a year ago

Ellesmere Port

So sick of this on POF that my profile now begins: "Come on, guys. There are dozens of gay hook-up apps out there for when you fancy some no strings fun. Can't you leave the dating sites for people who want to date?"

Still had some tit from Birmingham message me this morning to tell me how horny he is. Explained to him that if I just want a fuck, I can get one 5 minutes away.

Badoo is even worse. On there, I lead with: "Welcome to Badoo: just like Grindr, but with the option to pretend that you're straight and looking for women while you cruise for gay sex."

Particularly hacked off with Badoo right now. I bought some credit on there a while back, and it just disappeared. I didn't remove my payment method, and one wrong tap the other day billed me another 15 quid. Non-refundable, of course.

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By *orum TrollWoman
over a year ago

•+• Access Denied •+•


"So sick of this on POF that my profile now begins: "Come on, guys. There are dozens of gay hook-up apps out there for when you fancy some no strings fun. Can't you leave the dating sites for people who want to date?"

Still had some tit from Birmingham message me this morning to tell me how horny he is. Explained to him that if I just want a fuck, I can get one 5 minutes away.

Badoo is even worse. On there, I lead with: "Welcome to Badoo: just like Grindr, but with the option to pretend that you're straight and looking for women while you cruise for gay sex."

Particularly hacked off with Badoo right now. I bought some credit on there a while back, and it just disappeared. I didn't remove my payment method, and one wrong tap the other day billed me another 15 quid. Non-refundable, of course. "

i think just cancel the payment? if they won't refund you coz don't you have 30 days (maybe 14) to claim back money for anything you buy on the internet? no excuse as to why you want it back either.

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By *icoleAndLisaTransTV/TS
over a year ago

Ellesmere Port


"So sick of this on POF that my profile now begins: "Come on, guys. There are dozens of gay hook-up apps out there for when you fancy some no strings fun. Can't you leave the dating sites for people who want to date?"

Still had some tit from Birmingham message me this morning to tell me how horny he is. Explained to him that if I just want a fuck, I can get one 5 minutes away.

Badoo is even worse. On there, I lead with: "Welcome to Badoo: just like Grindr, but with the option to pretend that you're straight and looking for women while you cruise for gay sex."

Particularly hacked off with Badoo right now. I bought some credit on there a while back, and it just disappeared. I didn't remove my payment method, and one wrong tap the other day billed me another 15 quid. Non-refundable, of course.

i think just cancel the payment? if they won't refund you coz don't you have 30 days (maybe 14) to claim back money for anything you buy on the internet? no excuse as to why you want it back either."

I did a bit of Googling. Lots of people complaining how easy it is to spend their virtual currency with one wrong tap, and then inadvertently spend real money on more. Some have pursued Badoo for refunds. Nobody seems to have got very far.

The trouble is that it bills you 15 quid for 1250 credits and then immediately uses 100 of those credits to promote your profile. So you've used the service. No comebacks after that. It's like spending £10 on mobile phone credit, using £1 and then trying to get a refund on the £10 credit. It just isn't going to happen.

So I've chalked it up to experience, and deleted my payment method from the site. If I'm ever stupid enough to deliberately spend money there again, I will have to re-add my PayPal details.

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By *hinypants77Man
over a year ago

Leeds

I rarely get a date or even a message on POF. Very rarely meet or get a message from someone off fab.

Bumble on the other hand is non stop pulling and I've met some really nice women so far.

Their not filthy enough for me with the exception of one who was too filthy!

Im just looking for love. I'll settle for some amazing sex while I'm waiting though.

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By *orum TrollWoman
over a year ago

•+• Access Denied •+•


"So sick of this on POF that my profile now begins: "Come on, guys. There are dozens of gay hook-up apps out there for when you fancy some no strings fun. Can't you leave the dating sites for people who want to date?"

Still had some tit from Birmingham message me this morning to tell me how horny he is. Explained to him that if I just want a fuck, I can get one 5 minutes away.

Badoo is even worse. On there, I lead with: "Welcome to Badoo: just like Grindr, but with the option to pretend that you're straight and looking for women while you cruise for gay sex."

Particularly hacked off with Badoo right now. I bought some credit on there a while back, and it just disappeared. I didn't remove my payment method, and one wrong tap the other day billed me another 15 quid. Non-refundable, of course.

i think just cancel the payment? if they won't refund you coz don't you have 30 days (maybe 14) to claim back money for anything you buy on the internet? no excuse as to why you want it back either.

I did a bit of Googling. Lots of people complaining how easy it is to spend their virtual currency with one wrong tap, and then inadvertently spend real money on more. Some have pursued Badoo for refunds. Nobody seems to have got very far.

The trouble is that it bills you 15 quid for 1250 credits and then immediately uses 100 of those credits to promote your profile. So you've used the service. No comebacks after that. It's like spending £10 on mobile phone credit, using £1 and then trying to get a refund on the £10 credit. It just isn't going to happen.

So I've chalked it up to experience, and deleted my payment method from the site. If I'm ever stupid enough to deliberately spend money there again, I will have to re-add my PayPal details."

ok, at least you've stopped the site from taking anything more.

hate it when sites do that, you know they're not very good sites when they try and extract money and don't refund. it's why laws were made specifically to give consumer rights. sad they can get round those too.

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By *acavityMan
over a year ago

Redditch

Recently had a message on PoF, from a forumite.

Im not sure she recognised me, until I mentioned that we had chatted previously.

Sadly it didn't lead anywhere (relationship wise) but it was nice to meet her.

But weirdly I got two women messaging me on the same day, on another site OKcupid after months of nothing.

All or nothing

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"yes i get the idiots who don't read my POF profile and presume i will meet them for NSA sex.

it wouldn't bother me if they were on either site, or loads of sites. but if they think i'm up for a fuck when my profile said* otherwise they are fucking dumb as shit.

*said coz i don't have a profile now so it's not says.

My first meet for sex post marriage was with a pof/fabster. I had messaged her on FAB and been totally ignored. So I didn't bother trying again.. for all the reasons you mentioned.. plus I thought it a bit below the privacy line. I changed my status about on PoF and she messaged me! on PoF!

We spoke for a long time.. she even slipped once and said fab instead of PoF. I daren't tell her I knew. Not yet.. then she video chatted me out the blue no warning.. flirted heavily and came on to me a little. We said goodnight.

she made me laugh so much I felt so guilty I hadn't told her.. I thought the slip up was a test maybe as well. I sent her a message to read in the morning..

She thought it was the funniest thing ever! Much to my relief.. especially when I told her she'd ignored my first and only message. She'd genuinely slipped up when she said Fab.

Since then I always contact through PoF if I think they're on both.. but I think women can be very hard to tell if they are on both or not.

I'm easily recognisable if you were on both.. on purpose.. to show I'm not being sly, or shy, or false. But I suspect not everyone is.. and that could lead to mixed messages.

i get some people probably aren't after anything much different on either site, but my profiles both specified what i was looking for. and it was different things.

there's another topic on here about POF and i said i would hide myself on here if i tried dating again, and i would coz pretty much everyone is only open to NSA sex when they seen you're looking for it somewhere else. guys don't get that you might have one type for dating, coz that's deeper than a fuck where you need stimulation on a much more shallow but higher basis for NSA.

i wanna say so much more but know what i say will be highly offensive to some people who can't help what they are. i will leave it at if people would stop being so selfish and started considering what other people actually want then it'd save a lot of angst."

Get a room, you two.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"I rarely get a date or even a message on POF. Very rarely meet or get a message from someone off fab.

Bumble on the other hand is non stop pulling and I've met some really nice women so far.

Their not filthy enough for me with the exception of one who was too filthy!

Im just looking for love. I'll settle for some amazing sex while I'm waiting though. "

I'm the same as you....I'm looking for love but settle for sex while i wait lol

I get nothing from pof and gave up on all the other sites

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By *icoleAndLisaTransTV/TS
over a year ago

Ellesmere Port


"I'm looking for love but settle for sex while i wait lol"

Much the same here. Craving that exclusive emotional connection with one person. It could even be a sexually open relationship, just as long as it was emotionally exclusive. That's what I thought I had with my ex when we were swinging together. Then it became all too clear that she was in a much more committed relationship with one of her swinging partners.

Of the dating sites, POF has been by far the slowest, but with the best results. I have dated three guys on there, one via Grindr (seriously) and one via tvChix (that lasted over a year.) Badoo and all of the others have so far drawn a blank. I consider POF the best of a bad bunch.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I'm on both and as far as I'm concerned they are totally separate profiles... yes I'd be open to a relationship with the right person however most who see you on both assume you'll jump in to bed with them.

One particular guy used to bombard both Fab and pof with messages til I blocked him ha ha.

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By *retty womanWoman
over a year ago

Near Bournemouth

[Removed by poster at 08/08/17 18:03:35]

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Plenty of hassle is all that is

Here a shit ton of b.s emails of people wanting to meet you pft

you have a better chance at find wally with his dick in his hand behind some bins

Go for tinder least that way you know your face is the only thing letting you down

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By (user no longer on site) OP   
over a year ago


"Plenty of hassle is all that is

Here a shit ton of b.s emails of people wanting to meet you pft

you have a better chance at find wally with his dick in his hand behind some bins

Go for tinder least that way you know your face is the only thing letting you down "

I hate Tinder.

I like Pof.. I'm on there because I would like to be in a relationship at some point. But only with the right person.

POF and Fab allow me to have casual sex. But they differ for me in regards to sex.

POF and Fab allow me to meet new friends.

POF and Fab help me get closer to women looking for love.

I'm me.. I'm the same on here.. as I am on PoF.. the same on PoF as I am on reality. I will continue to use both sites to help me do all three things.

POF has a lot of fake profiles.. and I get lots of "Hey theres" From places like Manchester or Exeter.. When I'm 3hrs drive from either!

I'd drive miles for sex with someone I've got some chemistry with.. but I don't want to drive miles every week to see my partner.. I want her close by.. so I can spend as much time as possible with her. So I tend to only respond to women near me on PoF. it's about the only thing I do differently.

I want my next partner to be open to the idea of Fab.. because I feel I'm a very sexual person. So to not talk sex on PoF seems counterproductive..

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

What's a tough one as well is that on here you know that person is more like minded in the swinging scene so it's easier to break down that barrier.

On POF though it's not about that so it's hard to approach that subject without sounding like you're just the same as all the other sex mad guys, because that's the umbrella you'll get put under.

Tact and respect is everything. It's a tricky one lol.

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