FabSwingers.com forum: Cheating vs Swinging

By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

What are your thoughts on people knowingly cheating on their partners vs swinging where the partner knows?

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By *ighland gentlemanMan
over a year ago

Ardgay

Speaking as a member of the former, I'm absolutely fine with it!

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I think they are two entirely different things

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By *igSuki81Man
over a year ago

Retirement Village

Each to their own really. We're all adults and know what we are doing (i think

) so am aware of the risks we take playing without a partners knowledge

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By *eliWoman
over a year ago

[Removed by poster at 01/06/17 08:08:46]

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By *unforus1965Couple
over a year ago

MIDLANDS

"What are your thoughts on people knowingly cheating on their partners vs swinging where the partner knows?

Good question.

Do people realise there is a difference or do they simply not care?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

the problem arises when the cheater gets caught out and suddenly the innocent swinger/s gets involved with a home break up!

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By *urvymamaWoman
over a year ago

Doncaster

I don't necessarily condone cheating (especially as someone hurt by it in the past) but I realise the worlds not black and white neither.

My biggest issue with cheaters is that most tend to be hypocrites, it's ok for them to do it but not their partner, and they can't accept responsibility for their actions, part of which includes wrong judged by people as wrong for doing it.

Given the choice between a swinger and Cheater, I'd choose the swinging single males mainly because they can do the type of meets I enjoy, one where we make a whole night of it

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"What are your thoughts on people knowingly cheating on their partners vs swinging where the partner knows?

All men don't care

Some women don't care

Some women see it as worse crime ever

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By *eliWoman
over a year ago

Do you mean people cheating without the partner being aware? I'm a bit confused OP.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Call me old fashioned, but in the choice of the two situations, I'd rather be in the situation where honesty, loyalty, trust, transparency and shared pleasure is explored and celebrated, rather than the other situation where it's just not.

Entirely single here.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

It's one of those days

Taking the day off might be a good idea today

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Do you mean people cheating without the partner being aware? I'm a bit confused OP."

That's how I read it. Silly question really isn't it?

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By *eliWoman
over a year ago

"Do you mean people cheating without the partner being aware? I'm a bit confused OP.

That's how I read it. Silly question really isn't it?"

It was just phrased in an odd way.

OP, they aren't really comparable are they?

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

"the problem arises when the cheater gets caught out and suddenly the innocent swinger/s gets involved with a home break up!"

That's what I'm worried about. Knowing my luck it would turn into a car crash.

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

"Do you mean people cheating without the partner being aware? I'm a bit confused OP.

That's how I read it. Silly question really isn't it?

It was just phrased in an odd way.

OP, they aren't really comparable are they? "

Sorry yes the former being with the partner unaware of anything going on

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By *eliWoman
over a year ago

"the problem arises when the cheater gets caught out and suddenly the innocent swinger/s gets involved with a home break up!

That's what I'm worried about. Knowing my luck it would turn into a car crash.

OP, work out what you want to do and when you want to do it if at all. There'll be some who disagree with cheating vehemently, others who think it's akin to eating a bar of chocolate and those who aren't bothered - you probably won't find an answer to your personal dilemma on here.

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

"the problem arises when the cheater gets caught out and suddenly the innocent swinger/s gets involved with a home break up!

That's what I'm worried about. Knowing my luck it would turn into a car crash.

Cheers Meli x

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I don't necessarily condone cheating (especially as someone hurt by it in the past) but I realise the worlds not black and white neither.

Given the choice between a swinger and Cheater, I'd choose the swinging single males mainly because they can do the type of meets I enjoy, one where we make a whole night of it"

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Overnighters rule!

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

And so starts the weekly cheating thread

or the look at me thread

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By *ecretEscapes2Woman
over a year ago

worcester

Erm . .

no comment

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I don't necessarily condone cheating (especially as someone hurt by it in the past) but I realise the worlds not black and white neither.

Given the choice between a swinger and Cheater, I'd choose the swinging single males mainly because they can do the type of meets I enjoy, one where we make a whole night of it

I'd rather someone who can visit me for the weekend and someone who I can text and call, rather than someone who can meet only when wifey's distracted, and who has to sneak around to communicate so they don't get caught out. So ironically I prefer to meet actual single people for selfish reasons.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

And downhill it goes x

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By *eliWoman
over a year ago

"And downhill it goes x

How has it gone downhill? Jesus wept. Nobody has brought out the tar or a cross. They're expressing an opinion. It might be at odds with yours but it doesn't mean a discussion has gone downhill.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Overnighters rule!"

The fear of trumping in my sleep does not, though...

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Nobody owns your body, mind or choices in life. If we meet people for no strings sex with nothing emotionally involved, I don't think it matters personally.

I don't believe in marriage though so obviously a biased opinion, I answer to nobody basically.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Swinging encourages it as there is temptation everywhere.

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By *rincess peachWoman
over a year ago

shits creek

"Overnighters rule!

The fear of trumping in my sleep does not, though..."

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Good question! And one that should be discussed more frequently I think.

Cheating is bad. Grrrrr!

Swinging with consent is good. Yay!

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By *unforus1965Couple
over a year ago

MIDLANDS

"Good question! And one that should be discussed more frequently I think.

Cheating is bad. Grrrrr!

Swinging with consent is good. Yay!

Cheating is bad is real up to people's perceptions, however the fact that cheating is dishonest to a partner, well that really is just black and white.

Or is it not?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Cheating is a complicated matter. There can be numerous reasons for cheating. So I try not to judge the act itself but do hope that when people do look elsewhere for sex that they do so as safely possible as to not put the sexual health of their unsuspecting partner at risk.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Good question! And one that should be discussed more frequently I think.

Cheating is bad. Grrrrr!

Swinging with consent is good. Yay!

Cheating is bad is real up to people's perceptions, however the fact that cheating is dishonest to a partner, well that really is just black and white.

Or is it not?"

Yes, cheating is dishonest to partner. That fact is black and white

The more ambiguous bit is what led different people to be dishonest. Everyone has a different backstory and journey to that point. Without knowing the facts about individual cases I guess I can't decide whether to be incandescent with rage or maybe more understanding even if not approving.

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By *eliWoman
over a year ago

"Good question! And one that should be discussed more frequently I think.

Cheating is bad. Grrrrr!

Swinging with consent is good. Yay!

Cheating is bad is real up to people's perceptions, however the fact that cheating is dishonest to a partner, well that really is just black and white.

Or is it not?

Yes, cheating is dishonest to partner. That fact is black and white

I'm sure someone will be able to come up with a reason as to how it's not dishonest. But it is.

I think there are too many reasons to make a snap judgement personally but others will feel differently.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"the problem arises when the cheater gets caught out and suddenly the innocent swinger/s gets involved with a home break up!

That's what I'm worried about. Knowing my luck it would turn into a car crash.

Previous posts on this subject have asked if anyone has particular experience of a swinger being caught in divorce proceedings. No example was given. It seems like a very low risk.

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By *unforus1965Couple
over a year ago

MIDLANDS

"Good question! And one that should be discussed more frequently I think.

Cheating is bad. Grrrrr!

Swinging with consent is good. Yay!

Cheating is bad is real up to people's perceptions, however the fact that cheating is dishonest to a partner, well that really is just black and white.

Or is it not?

Yes, cheating is dishonest to partner. That fact is black and white

We agree totally that some are more deserving of understanding than others as we do not know the full story.

But in our experience, those with genuine reasons are in the minority.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Swingers cheat too. I never get why really, but they do.

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

Would you say being married makes a difference when one partner is unsuspecting? Or is it the same married or not?

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By *unforus1965Couple
over a year ago

MIDLANDS

"Would you say being married makes a difference when one partner is unsuspecting? Or is it the same married or not?"

Whether married or not there should still be honesty between partners about something as big as having sex with other people.

Just our personal opinion though!

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By *alandNitaCouple
over a year ago

Scunthorpe

"What are your thoughts on people knowingly cheating on their partners vs swinging where the partner knows?

Swinging with your partner, that's our preference.

Cal (Still in sunny Crete)

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Call me old fashioned, but in the choice of the two situations, I'd rather be in the situation where honesty, loyalty, trust, transparency and shared pleasure is explored and celebrated, rather than the other situation where it's just not.

Entirely single here.

"
I'd agree

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By *uckOfTheBayMan
over a year ago

Mold

Where's my barrel of tar and sack of feathers?

In the end, does it really matter?

Who are we to judge others on their circumstances and what goes on in their private lives?

Let us get our own houses in order and worry about how lead our own lives

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By *ackDMissMorganCouple
over a year ago

Halifax

We wouldnt meet anyone playing behind a partners back ,but it goes on here alot and isnt our place to judge why .

Miss

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By *unforus1965Couple
over a year ago

MIDLANDS

In all honesty we think that there is a big difference between passing judgement and stating opinions.

We may have missed it, but we don't think that there are many out and out judgemental people on here, just people giving their opinions on a subject that is all over this site.

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

So for example if you are married and your hubby/wife is happy for you to play around, would you play with someone who's partner was unaware of what they were upto?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Oh! What a refreshing new topic!

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By *rank EinsteinMan
over a year ago

Burton upon stather

"What are your thoughts on people knowingly cheating on their partners vs swinging where the partner knows?

All men don't care

Some women don't care

Some women see it as worse crime ever "

Speak for yourself, not for others.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Entirely single here.

Love this post

I agree and I am the same!

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By *iss.HoneyWoman
over a year ago

...

Oh fuck sake. Let people do what they like

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Good question! And one that should be discussed more frequently I think.

Cheating is bad. Grrrrr!

Swinging with consent is good. Yay!

Cheating is bad is real up to people's perceptions, however the fact that cheating is dishonest to a partner, well that really is just black and white.

Or is it not?

Yes, cheating is dishonest to partner. That fact is black and white

I agree Dan!

Well said

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Anyone can do what they want to just be honest about it from outset

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

"Oh! What a refreshing new topic!

It's all new to me which is why I started the topic, why post if you're not going to help? X

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Oh! What a refreshing new topic!

It's all new to me which is why I started the topic, why post if you're not going to help? X"

Apologies since you are new to the forums. After a while you will see a recurring theme on topics and this is one of them. Have a look using the forum search tool and you will find a veritable plethora of threads devoted to it.

Oh, and welcome to the forum

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Oh! What a refreshing new topic!

lol you would roll your eyes,,, your married

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

"Oh! What a refreshing new topic!

It's all new to me which is why I started the topic, why post if you're not going to help? X

Oh, and welcome to the forum

Cheers. It's bonkers. Fun though and mostly with good advice! X

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I think they are two entirely different things

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By *uckandbunnyCouple
over a year ago

In your bed

"Oh fuck sake. Let people do what they like

Cool.

I'll use that the next time I hear of a con artist taking some old dear for a ride.

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By *iss.HoneyWoman
over a year ago

...

"Oh fuck sake. Let people do what they like

Cool.

I'll use that the next time I hear of a con artist taking some old dear for a ride.

Oh get a grip

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

It is not for me to judge others on what they do in their private lives. I will still happily meet with them. For me, I don't get involved in any of my meets private lives whether they are married or not.

Although I must say I don't agree with what they are doing. I've been the cheat and been cheated on. It hurts both ways and left me heartbroken but what others do isn't my business.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Although I must say I don't agree with what they are doing. I've been the cheat and been cheated on. It hurts both ways and left me heartbroken but what others do isn't my business. "

So if you've been cheated on and were crushed by that,, how did you feel about the other woman knowing that she was causing you hurt?

Im totally fascinated by cheaters and women who will carry on with a man knowing he's being unfaithful

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By *ink Panther.Woman
over a year ago

Preston

OP your situation is something most have come up against but everyone's view is different. No one can predict the outcome, I just rely on my gut with the addition of certain arrangements I won't get involved in. Ultimately you have to find your own way

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

"OP your situation is something most have come up against but everyone's view is different. No one can predict the outcome, I just rely on my gut with the addition of certain arrangements I won't get involved in. Ultimately you have to find your own way

You iz sexy advice lady thankyou

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I see no point in judging others. I know a guy whose wife has a medical condition. So they can't have sex. If she goes away to see her parents. He generally gets an escort in. People's lives are complex. I think people are too quick to damn.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Although I must say I don't agree with what they are doing. I've been the cheat and been cheated on. It hurts both ways and left me heartbroken but what others do isn't my business.

So if you've been cheated on and were crushed by that,, how did you feel about the other woman knowing that she was causing you hurt?

Im totally fascinated by cheaters and women who will carry on with a man knowing he's being unfaithful

It wasn't just one women, it was many. Some didn't know about me and some did.

At the end of the day they weren't my problem, I wasn't in love with them. He however will forever be asking for my forgiveness. I'm no longer with him but constantly getting apology messages still to this day. The funny thing is, I'm over it, but he isn't. I see that as my revenge for what he did to me.

For me I don't get emotional involved in any of my meets. I keep my life private (unless I need to share something with them) and they are entitled to do the same.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

We were always told in School to

"Just say No to drugs"

wait I mean

"Cheaters never win"

There is a Massive difference to us, honesty and trust are extremely important, amongst other things, aspects of a healthy relationship.

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By *uckandbunnyCouple
over a year ago

In your bed

"Oh fuck sake. Let people do what they like

Cool.

I'll use that the next time I hear of a con artist taking some old dear for a ride.

Oh get a grip

I have a fine grip my cock agrees.

Its my knees that are knackered, but it all seems a little off topic.

I'd rather be conned out of a few 100 quid than to be conned in a relationship.

Whether that be friends, family or a long term partner.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

There's lots of people saying people can do what they like it's upto them. The only problem with this is that the whole reason I joined this site was to have fun with no dramas. Meeting a cheater is very likely to lead to drama. Women are very good at finding out if their other half is cheating and then a lot of the time the other woman gets the blame. This is fair enough if the guy has been honest from the start cos then its your choice whether you want to take the risk and if you're comfortable with meeting a cheater . The thing I have a real problem with is if the guy tells me he's single when he's not, he's then bringing potential trouble into my life that I didn't ask for and I think thats very unfair.

I'm writing this from a female perspective but obviously the exact same situation can happen the other way around before you all start calling me sexist.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

It's not cheating unless you get caught

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I don't appreciate cheating, but hey that's their own business, people shouldn't cry when they get caught

But swinging can be a couple activity, and if your partner knows you're here and it's an open relationship, well lucky you you got the butter, the money of the butter and the bum of the lady making the butter (trying to adapt a french saying here, it looks awful in english lmao)

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By *ackDMissMorganCouple
over a year ago

Halifax

I think if people are upfront about it,people can choose to meet attached people or not.

Its the ones that lie and try to hide it ,that i object to,people are then unwittingly pulled into the drama.

Miss

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

If the partner knows and consents, then it is not cheating and we are fine with that

- Mrs. J -

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Cheats should be hung up and pelted with condoms filled with spunk.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Swingi_g couples...meh.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Cheats should be hung up and pelted with condoms filled with spunk."

There will be a thread on this soon, asking if anyone enjoys this.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I don't necessarily condone cheating (especially as someone hurt by it in the past) but I realise the worlds not black and white neither.

Given the choice between a swinger and Cheater, I'd choose the swinging single males mainly because they can do the type of meets I enjoy, one where we make a whole night of it"

Yes and then they all for someone in site and want that person to be exclusive to them. That's hypocrisy if ever I heard it lol

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Cheats should be hung up and pelted with condoms filled with spunk.

There will be a thread on this soon, asking if anyone enjoys this.

Is it wrong I laughed at this?? The throwing condoms bit

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

"Cheats should be hung up and pelted with condoms filled with spunk.

There will be a thread on this soon, asking if anyone enjoys this.

Is it wrong I laughed at this?? The throwing condoms bit

I laughed a bit too

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By *eavenscentitCouple
over a year ago

barnstaple

Its the dishonesty I don't like.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Stupid question in my opinion

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

Do you think it's any different if a wife cheats on her husband?

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By *G CoupleCouple
over a year ago

kent

Don't really bother us, we don't get involved in other people's private lives.

It's just sex, we don't need to or want to know any more or less.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Do you think it's any different if a wife cheats on her husband?"

My initial reaction is the hubby will think 'FUCK YES SHE'S A SWINGER IN THE MAKING' or 'SHE's DONE IT SO CAN I'

but there will be of course a dedicated faithful man who would be crushed by the betrayal

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

"Do you think it's any different if a wife cheats on her husband?

My initial reaction is the hubby will think 'FUCK YES SHE'S A SWINGER IN THE MAKING' or 'SHE's DONE IT SO CAN I'

but there will be of course a dedicated faithful man who would be crushed by the betrayal "

I suppose the only time it becomes a problem is getting inadvertently dragged into drama

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Going about it behind their partners back: disgusting

Doing it where the partner knows: acceptable

Doing it where the partner also joins in: even better

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Walks in, turns around and leaves

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By *ily Con CarneTV/TS
over a year ago

Cornwall

Just makes the cheaters unreliable ...only my experience of course...

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I think if people are upfront about it,people can choose to meet attached people or not.

Its the ones that lie and try to hide it ,that i object to,people are then unwittingly pulled into the drama.

Miss"

Why do people say about drama. The amount of people that cheat and get away with it is phenomenal.

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

"I think if people are upfront about it,people can choose to meet attached people or not.

Its the ones that lie and try to hide it ,that i object to,people are then unwittingly pulled into the drama.

Miss

Why do people say about drama. The amount of people that cheat and get away with it is phenomenal. "

Knowing my luck it would go wrong

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By *he-Dirty-DuoMan
over a year ago

Boston

"What are your thoughts on people knowingly cheating on their partners vs swinging where the partner knows?

Good question.

Do people realise there is a difference or do they simply not care?"

For me there's a big difference between the two with trust being a big part of that.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I think if people are upfront about it,people can choose to meet attached people or not.

Its the ones that lie and try to hide it ,that i object to,people are then unwittingly pulled into the drama.

Miss

Why do people say about drama. The amount of people that cheat and get away with it is phenomenal. "

I know people who have been doing it for years.

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By *unforus1965Couple
over a year ago

MIDLANDS

"I think if people are upfront about it,people can choose to meet attached people or not.

Its the ones that lie and try to hide it ,that i object to,people are then unwittingly pulled into the drama.

Miss

Why do people say about drama. The amount of people that cheat and get away with it is phenomenal.

I know people who have been doing it for years. "

So do we, we even have family who blatantly and constantly do it.

Still doesn't make it right, and it is so unfair to the unsuspecting partner.

But most cheats don't really care do they, or they wouldn't cheat.

Note we said most, we are aware that there is a minority of people who have valid reasons, but that is a minority. Like we see in our family, the majority of cheats simply cheat because they can.

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

"I think if people are upfront about it,people can choose to meet attached people or not.

Its the ones that lie and try to hide it ,that i object to,people are then unwittingly pulled into the drama.

Miss

Why do people say about drama. The amount of people that cheat and get away with it is phenomenal.

I know people who have been doing it for years.

So do we, we even have family who blatantly and constantly do it.

Still doesn't make it right, and it is so unfair to the unsuspecting partner.

But most cheats don't really care do they, or they wouldn't cheat.

Note we said most, we are aware that there is a minority of people who have valid reasons, but that is a minority. Like we see in our family, the majority of cheats simply cheat because they can."

In my ideal fantasy world I would hope the cheater finally opens up and is honest to their partner, so they can comfortably have fun without the risk of hurting someone.

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By *unforus1965Couple
over a year ago

MIDLANDS

"I think if people are upfront about it,people can choose to meet attached people or not.

Its the ones that lie and try to hide it ,that i object to,people are then unwittingly pulled into the drama.

Miss

Why do people say about drama. The amount of people that cheat and get away with it is phenomenal.

I know people who have been doing it for years.

So do we, we even have family who blatantly and constantly do it.

Still doesn't make it right, and it is so unfair to the unsuspecting partner.

But most cheats don't really care do they, or they wouldn't cheat.

Note we said most, we are aware that there is a minority of people who have valid reasons, but that is a minority. Like we see in our family, the majority of cheats simply cheat because they can.

In my ideal fantasy world I would hope the cheater finally opens up and is honest to their partner, so they can comfortably have fun without the risk of hurting someone."

Our opinion of the ideal world is that the cheater tells their unsuspecting partner, then the partner can exercise their freedom of choice which the cheater has obviously taken, and the partner can decide whether they find cheating behaviour acceptable or not.

We all are entitled to make our own choices, aren't we? What we aren't supposed to do is stop others making theirs.

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By *iSTARessWoman
over a year ago

London

Cheaters... Boo hisssss

Swingers... The ideal

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

My thoughts are I won't get involved with someone who is cheating. Hubby and I are both on here and open and honest with each other, we expect the same of anyone else we get involved with.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Cheaters never prosper

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By *aughty_kittyWoman
over a year ago

finger licking good

It annoys me.. Its my own personal view so don't expect others to agree.

But i find it so frustrating that swinging has got lost in the "quick easy sex" as it seems a lot of people now feel it is.

Females cant be here unless they are open to have sex asap with whoever messages them as we are only here as we are desperate lonely females ( what i have been told when turning down meets) i know not everyone feels that way,

but there is a lot of single profiles who are not actually single and without consent from your partner i don't see you as swinging rather a cheater looking for a quick lay..

I don't paint everyone the same i know not all singles are cheaters or loose as hell..

However i do feel that swinging as a swinging site, the life style as lost what it means for a lot of people..

I probably am not making any sense. But my stance is cheating is wrong and If your here without your partner knowing and have to hide it. Your not a swinger.

Simple as...

PS anyone wanna pick apart my spelling and grammar email me with the corrections so i can ignore it privately

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By *urvymamaWoman
over a year ago

Doncaster

"Cheaters never prosper "

Unless your the banker in monopoly

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By *igSuki81Man
over a year ago

Retirement Village

"Cheaters never prosper

Unless your the banker in monopoly

Or any banker out there really

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

Just to clarify this topic isn't about me lol

It is about someone I was arranging to meet. I had second thoughts as it didn't feel right and looked at it from a different perspective. All this advice has been insightful!

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"the problem arises when the cheater gets caught out and suddenly the innocent swinger/s gets involved with a home break up!

That's what I'm worried about. Knowing my luck it would turn into a car crash.

Previous posts on this subject have asked if anyone has particular experience of a swinger being caught in divorce proceedings. No example was given. It seems like a very low risk. "

You don't have to name the 3rd party. Just provide details that there was one...

I'm divorced after finding my ex was cheating here. Do I think less of the people who slept with him? Hell yes. Is it their fault my marriage ended? No, that's on him.

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By *gnitemybodyWoman
over a year ago

Onestepoutofthedoor

One I respect the other I don't.

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