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"Maybe they would shoot the bomber dead before they push the button but most bombers have timers and remote detonation anyways so tbh it's useless " That's my point. | |||
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"Not the only way they attack. They drive cars into crowds, Paris was an armed attack etc In those cases armed police help." True but even then you can't tell wot car will try and wot car won't till its almost to late. | |||
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"I think their presence is partly to reassure. I think,like you that of a suicide bomber is going act armed police can't stop them" This is wot I wos saying to my work coleeg. | |||
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"It's as much as a reassurance thing for the public to see as it is a deterrent for the terrorists. The armed police are just the visual front line. There are a thousand detectives working on the case that the public don't see. "Verry true. | |||
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"its for reassurance as much as a deterrent...it's the only part the public can see..obviously we are not going to be privy to actual security services knowledge and actions..and if we all still want to be able to go about our daily business as usual, i dont really see what else they can do at the moment?" I onistley don't have a clue......... | |||
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"the op cunt spell properly  "Yes he can, when it suits.  | |||
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"the op cunt spell properly "That's because he's dyslexic. | |||
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"the op cunt spell properly "He's dyslexic. | |||
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"the op cunt spell properly "Thar is always 1  | |||
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"Yeh like getting shot is going to deter a suicide bomber! It's like giving a Chav an electronic tag ffs." Ezakley... | |||
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"Well , I'd rather have an armed presence, than a bobby with a whistle. The westminster attacker was shot. The Nice lorry attacker was shot. There has to be a defence available that includes deadly force. " Good point. | |||
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"If they prevent even one attempt, however it's executed, then it's a worthwhile thing. " Good point. | |||
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"Yeh like getting shot is going to deter a suicide bomber! It's like giving a Chav an electronic tag ffs." It can stop a suicide bomber getting into a stadium. It can bring down a machete wielding maniac. It can stop a car driving into a crowd. It can stop an armed gunman. . What is your proposal? | |||
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"the op cunt spell properly
Yes he can, when it suits. "oh no he cunt | |||
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"the op cunt spell properly "Showing your true colours I see. | |||
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"the op cunt spell properly
Thar is always 1 "alwaze one,,yea | |||
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"the op cunt spell properly
Showing your true colours I see."and whats that,,lol,,do tell | |||
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"Who knows what this mad lot ruling think. It's largely because they got rid of thousands of police, so didn't have enough to cope with a predictable crisis. Useless politicians without much competence. Armed military were supposed to reassure and deter - if any deterrence, it would just have been away from the spots where soldiers etc were to somewhere else instead. But the current government think we're too stupid to notice that they are largely stupid and unbelievably arrogant to think that of us. They deserve our contempt." | |||
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"the op cunt spell properly
Yes he can, when it suits.
oh no he cunt"Did you read the replies saying he's dyslexic? Maybe look it up if you don't undersatnd what it means. But his contribution to the thread has been more valuable than yours. | |||
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"Yeh like getting shot is going to deter a suicide bomber! It's like giving a Chav an electronic tag ffs. It can stop a suicide bomber getting into a stadium. It can bring down a machete wielding maniac. It can stop a car driving into a crowd. It can stop an armed gunman. . What is your proposal? " Long time ago i walked around Belfast a lot, understanding was that a armed presence would make any terrorist think twice. Good intelligence saves lives, better to be tried by twelve than carried by six still stands. | |||
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"You cant stop someone that is radicalized, but yes, it would make it more safer in some areas, the reason we see more and more of it now is cos the west is killing leaders such as qaddafi, saddam hussain, their secular leadership keeps them more in check." | |||
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"the op cunt spell properly
Yes he can, when it suits.
oh no he cunt
Did you read the replies saying he's dyslexic? Maybe look it up if you don't undersatnd what it means. But his contribution to the thread has been more valuable than yours."ooooooooooooooooooooooooh get you,,lol | |||
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"the op cunt spell properly
Yes he can, when it suits.
oh no he cunt"Why ridicule someone? | |||
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"the op cunt spell properly "I'm sure you've made that observation before, thanks for the info | |||
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"the op cunt spell properly
Yes he can, when it suits.
oh no he cunt
Why ridicule someone? "actually I'm not | |||
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"the op cunt spell properly
Yes he can, when it suits. "I think the OP is genuinely dyslexic and most people can generally understand what he's saying. He seems (to me) to be a top bloke and why people would feel the need to rip the piss out of him is beyond me. | |||
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"What would you suggest OP? Just let them do their worst? " I don't no wot to suggest....but in my vue having armed police to stop terror... I don't think it will work. | |||
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"the op cunt spell properly
Showing your true colours I see.
and whats that,,lol,,do tell"Personally I think you're an absolute bitch and I don't think you have any redeeming qualities. I don't understand the "Oh Mikki is so funny" attitude on here. Your whole persona on here is slagging people off. That's not funny to me. | |||
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"the op cunt spell properly
Yes he can, when it suits.
oh no he cunt
Why ridicule someone?
actually I'm not"Oh right, my bad, sorry | |||
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"the op cunt spell properly
Yes he can, when it suits.
oh no he cunt
Did you read the replies saying he's dyslexic? Maybe look it up if you don't undersatnd what it means. But his contribution to the thread has been more valuable than yours.
ooooooooooooooooooooooooh get you,,lol"You do no thar is a mod on this thread. | |||
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"the op cunt spell properly
Showing your true colours I see.
and whats that,,lol,,do tell
Personally I think you're an absolute bitch and I don't think you have any redeeming qualities.
I don't understand the "Oh Mikki is so funny" attitude on here. Your whole persona on here is slagging people off. That's not funny to me." | |||
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"the op cunt spell properly
Yes he can, when it suits.
oh no he cunt
Did you read the replies saying he's dyslexic? Maybe look it up if you don't undersatnd what it means. But his contribution to the thread has been more valuable than yours.
ooooooooooooooooooooooooh get you,,lol
You do no thar is a mod on this thread."cool,,i hav,nt done anything wrong | |||
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"What would you suggest OP? Just let them do their worst? " The politicians feel better, they have been seen to do SOMETHING, anything it does not matter. The fact is we cannot all be protected all of the time. The terrorists will just move onto other softer targets. We live in a free (??) democratic society with finite resources. Personally I feel really uncomfortable seeing gun toting policemen. Just NOT Britain | |||
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"What would you suggest OP? Just let them do their worst? I don't no wot to suggest....but in my vue having armed police to stop terror... I don't think it will work. " It's a preventive measure, to show unity and a defiant front that we will not ignore terrorism on any level | |||
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"the op cunt spell properly
Yes he can, when it suits.
oh no he cunt
Why ridicule someone?
actually I'm not"what would you call it then. They where having a serious discussion till you started taking the piss | |||
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"Having visible armed police on the streets, I think is likely to cause would be terrorists to act slightly different, and perhaps give cause for someone to question their behaviour and actions. Similar I imagine to a car thief for instance, the sight of a policeman or police car is likely to make them agitated, they know they are breaking the law and will or should fear that they will be caught. But that said, trying to guess what is going through the mind of a terrorist is anyone's guess. Ginger " | |||
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"What would you suggest OP? Just let them do their worst? I don't no wot to suggest....but in my vue having armed police to stop terror... I don't think it will work. It's a preventive measure, to show unity and a defiant front that we will not ignore terrorism on any level " Good point. | |||
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"Personally I don't find people wandering around with weapons particularly reassuring. Yes, someone with a deadly weapon - if they happen to be in exactly the right place at exactly the right time - might make a difference. If all you give a person is a hammer then they start to see every problem as a nail. If the person is given an assault rifle then I worry every problem starts to look like a target." You can rest assured that the armed response units are very highly trained, we are not in America where you get shot for running a red light. | |||
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"Personally I don't find people wandering around with weapons particularly reassuring. Yes, someone with a deadly weapon - if they happen to be in exactly the right place at exactly the right time - might make a difference. If all you give a person is a hammer then they start to see every problem as a nail. If the person is given an assault rifle then I worry every problem starts to look like a target." Food for thought... | |||
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"Personally I don't find people wandering around with weapons particularly reassuring. Yes, someone with a deadly weapon - if they happen to be in exactly the right place at exactly the right time - might make a difference. If all you give a person is a hammer then they start to see every problem as a nail. If the person is given an assault rifle then I worry every problem starts to look like a target." Never thort of it that way. | |||
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"its for reassurance as much as a deterrent...it's the only part the public can see..obviously we are not going to be privy to actual security services knowledge and actions..and if we all still want to be able to go about our daily business as usual, i dont really see what else they can do at the moment? I onistley don't have a clue........." Relax, the scenic railway isn't on the list of high profile targets | |||
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"What would you suggest OP? Just let them do their worst? I don't no wot to suggest....but in my vue having armed police to stop terror... I don't think it will work. It's a preventive measure, to show unity and a defiant front that we will not ignore terrorism on any level " But what exactly does it prevent? Plus the resources aren't there to make it a permanent measure. I grew up in a police state, and I was glad to put that behind me. Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety. | |||
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"you'd just work something else out if you were inclined to blow stuff up wouldn't you? make less obvious stuff and not walk up to a concert or airport or whatever wearing eleventy six sticks of dynamite wired to an alarm clock." Bombs strapped to dogs...bombdogs https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=jGTPqaNP710 | |||
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" It's a preventive measure, to show unity and a defiant front that we will not ignore terrorism on any level But what exactly does it prevent? Plus the resources aren't there to make it a permanent measure. I grew up in a police state, and I was glad to put that behind me. Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." What liberty has been given up? | |||
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"you'd just work something else out if you were inclined to blow stuff up wouldn't you? make less obvious stuff and not walk up to a concert or airport or whatever wearing eleventy six sticks of dynamite wired to an alarm clock. it's a little bit of a deterrent, in that it may mean needing to come up with different plans to cause harm and it helps reassure some (i don't like armed brass knocking about, but that's another conversation) but i don't see it as a solution. i don't think there is a fool proof plan you can impliment to catch all threats...humans are sneaky clever and very inventive..look at the bomb the i.r.a left for maggie thatcher, on a timer for months under a bath in a hotel..an armed man can't prevent that and god knows what other ways folk can think of to cause harm. " | |||
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" It's a preventive measure, to show unity and a defiant front that we will not ignore terrorism on any level But what exactly does it prevent? Plus the resources aren't there to make it a permanent measure. I grew up in a police state, and I was glad to put that behind me. Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety. What liberty has been given up?" It's OK, people like you who have nothing to hide have nothing to fear. | |||
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"What would you suggest OP? Just let them do their worst? I don't no wot to suggest....but in my vue having armed police to stop terror... I don't think it will work. It's a preventive measure, to show unity and a defiant front that we will not ignore terrorism on any level But what exactly does it prevent? Plus the resources aren't there to make it a permanent measure. I grew up in a police state, and I was glad to put that behind me. Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." If that's the attitude why have police at all? Let's just give up and roll over hey what's the point | |||
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"you'd just work something else out if you were inclined to blow stuff up wouldn't you? make less obvious stuff and not walk up to a concert or airport or whatever wearing eleventy six sticks of dynamite wired to an alarm clock. Bombs strapped to dogs...bombdogs https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=jGTPqaNP710 " lol...and crows though! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Le-OMixHbNQ | |||
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" Cool, I haven't done anything wrong. " As spelling and grammar seems to be so important to you I have taken the liberty of correcting yours in the quote above. Your welcome. | |||
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"its for reassurance as much as a deterrent...it's the only part the public can see..obviously we are not going to be privy to actual security services knowledge and actions..and if we all still want to be able to go about our daily business as usual, i dont really see what else they can do at the moment? I onistley don't have a clue......... Relax, the scenic railway isn't on the list of high profile targets" I don't want to go off topick but I'm gessing you have been on the R.H.&.D.R | |||
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" Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety. What liberty has been given up? It's OK, people like you who have nothing to hide have nothing to fear. " Well, I don't but don't get the answer. The discussion is about armed police, not covert surveillance. How does armed police diminish liberty? | |||
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"What would you suggest OP? Just let them do their worst? I don't no wot to suggest....but in my vue having armed police to stop terror... I don't think it will work. It's a preventive measure, to show unity and a defiant front that we will not ignore terrorism on any level But what exactly does it prevent? Plus the resources aren't there to make it a permanent measure. I grew up in a police state, and I was glad to put that behind me. Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety. If that's the attitude why have police at all? Let's just give up and roll over hey what's the point " That's not what I said, but nice straw man argument | |||
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"What would you suggest OP? Just let them do their worst? I don't no wot to suggest....but in my vue having armed police to stop terror... I don't think it will work. It's a preventive measure, to show unity and a defiant front that we will not ignore terrorism on any level But what exactly does it prevent? Plus the resources aren't there to make it a permanent measure. I grew up in a police state, and I was glad to put that behind me. Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." Our forces work behind the scenes and anti terrorism is going on everywhere we strive to keep our country a safe and welcoming place to live and visit. It's only because of these measures we are able to have such a reassurance and United front | |||
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" Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety. What liberty has been given up? It's OK, people like you who have nothing to hide have nothing to fear. Well, I don't but don't get the answer. The discussion is about armed police, not covert surveillance. How does armed police diminish liberty?" Did I mention covert surveillance? | |||
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"Claws away ladies it's only a thread." | |||
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"What would you suggest OP? Just let them do their worst? I don't no wot to suggest....but in my vue having armed police to stop terror... I don't think it will work. It's a preventive measure, to show unity and a defiant front that we will not ignore terrorism on any level But what exactly does it prevent? Plus the resources aren't there to make it a permanent measure. I grew up in a police state, and I was glad to put that behind me. Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety. If that's the attitude why have police at all? Let's just give up and roll over hey what's the point That's not what I said, but nice straw man argument "Man argument?  I haven't a clue what that means. If it was an insult it was wasted, sorry | |||
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"You'll probably find that now is the safest time to do anything as everyone is alert to attack. I suspect once things have died down then the sadists will attack again when it's not expected. Nothing can be done if we are in the wrong place at the wrong time! What I will say Fabbers is live life to the full, enjoy life as you don't know what is around the corner "We'll sed. | |||
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"you'd just work something else out if you were inclined to blow stuff up wouldn't you? make less obvious stuff and not walk up to a concert or airport or whatever wearing eleventy six sticks of dynamite wired to an alarm clock. it's a little bit of a deterrent, in that it may mean needing to come up with different plans to cause harm and it helps reassure some (i don't like armed brass knocking about, but that's another conversation) but i don't see it as a solution. i don't think there is a fool proof plan you can impliment to catch all threats...humans are sneaky clever and very inventive..look at the bomb the i.r.a left for maggie thatcher, on a timer for months under a bath in a hotel..an armed man can't prevent that and god knows what other ways folk can think of to cause harm. " I guess you don't lock your front door as the burglar will just break a window instead? Armed Police isn't being touted as a solution. It is a sticking plaster on a shitty problem, that has to be solved by other means. It is a partial defence while the threat is reduced in other ways. | |||
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" Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety. What liberty has been given up? It's OK, people like you who have nothing to hide have nothing to fear. Well, I don't but don't get the answer. The discussion is about armed police, not covert surveillance. How does armed police diminish liberty? Did I mention covert surveillance? " No you didn't, I'm trying to understand the 'nothing to hide' reason. How does it affect liberty? | |||
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"Had armed police here for years...not changed things much.." | |||
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" Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety. What liberty has been given up? It's OK, people like you who have nothing to hide have nothing to fear. Well, I don't but don't get the answer. The discussion is about armed police, not covert surveillance. How does armed police diminish liberty? Did I mention covert surveillance? No you didn't, I'm trying to understand the 'nothing to hide' reason. How does it affect liberty?" You were being obtuse, I in turn decided to be facetious. See Errol B's argument. He made a point similar to mine but far more effectively. | |||
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"you'd just work something else out if you were inclined to blow stuff up wouldn't you? make less obvious stuff and not walk up to a concert or airport or whatever wearing eleventy six sticks of dynamite wired to an alarm clock. it's a little bit of a deterrent, in that it may mean needing to come up with different plans to cause harm and it helps reassure some (i don't like armed brass knocking about, but that's another conversation) but i don't see it as a solution. i don't think there is a fool proof plan you can impliment to catch all threats...humans are sneaky clever and very inventive..look at the bomb the i.r.a left for maggie thatcher, on a timer for months under a bath in a hotel..an armed man can't prevent that and god knows what other ways folk can think of to cause harm. I guess you don't lock your front door as the burglar will just break a window instead? Armed Police isn't being touted as a solution. It is a sticking plaster on a shitty problem, that has to be solved by other means. It is a partial defence while the threat is reduced in other ways." nah, makes more noise busting a window than just opening a door, though i do often forget to lock the bloody thing. anyhow, you the leader of the gunman fan club? my point was onlythat there's no catch all solution for this stuff. putting armed police on the streets ain't gonna do a hell of a lot. i'm sure our lovely government and security forces do have other irons in the fire too and will prevent certain things i'm sure, but armed men on our streets can be worked around by those of a nefarious enough mind. i'll be reasonably surprised if one of their bullets stops something occurring but i'd be glad to be wrong. | |||
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" my point was onlythat there's no catch all solution for this stuff. putting armed police on the streets ain't gonna do a hell of a lot. i'm sure our lovely government and security forces do have other irons in the fire too and will prevent certain things i'm sure, but armed men on our streets can be worked around by those of a nefarious enough mind. i'll be reasonably surprised if one of their bullets stops something occurring but i'd be glad to be wrong. " I agree, there is no catch-all single solution, and see armed police as one part of it. But they can only try to prevent something that has already gone too far. A bullet stopped the Westminster attacker continuing his rampage. Other uk attrocities not so. | |||
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Lots of intreateding vues to | |||
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" my point was onlythat there's no catch all solution for this stuff. putting armed police on the streets ain't gonna do a hell of a lot. i'm sure our lovely government and security forces do have other irons in the fire too and will prevent certain things i'm sure, but armed men on our streets can be worked around by those of a nefarious enough mind. i'll be reasonably surprised if one of their bullets stops something occurring but i'd be glad to be wrong. I agree, there is no catch-all single solution, and see armed police as one part of it. But they can only try to prevent something that has already gone too far. A bullet stopped the Westminster attacker continuing his rampage. Other uk attrocities not so." Totally agree | |||
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"I think the main aim is for the populace to feel safe though at the same time armed response can and will be faster. as others have said this measure will be accompanying many other measures along with intelligence. " | |||
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"Lots of interesting vues "There's are my friend. The reality is, that the wider public aren't privy to everything going on, and the armed police on the streets are only part of a wider armed group. Intelligence, technology and other resources back them up. But all of those resources mean nothing if you can't act upon them hence their presence. | |||
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"Personally I don't find people wandering around with weapons particularly reassuring. Yes, someone with a deadly weapon - if they happen to be in exactly the right place at exactly the right time - might make a difference. If all you give a person is a hammer then they start to see every problem as a nail. If the person is given an assault rifle then I worry every problem starts to look like a target." Not really. Most AFOs live in dread of actually having to use their weapons and shoot/kill somebody. They will often look for other solutions first before resorting to a gun. The problem is with a suicide bomber or active shooter, that opportunity to consider options usually isn't there. Overt armed policing is all about public reassurance rather than deterrence. Hard to deter someone who is prepared to die. It's a shit sandwich whichever way you look at it. Can't take a joke, shouldn't have joined. Did you know they are all volunteers, they don't have to do it at all? | |||
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"Well, they didn't deter the attack, but thank god armed police stopped it 8 minutes after the 1st 999 call. The horror would have been even worse had they not been there. Maybe time for those who say they don't help to think again...." Correctamundo | |||
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"the op cunt spell properly
Yes he can, when it suits.
oh no he cunt
Did you read the replies saying he's dyslexic? Maybe look it up if you don't undersatnd what it means. But his contribution to the thread has been more valuable than yours.
ooooooooooooooooooooooooh get you,,lol
You do no thar is a mod on this thread.
cool,,i hav,nt done anything wrong "haven't lol | |||
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"Who knows what this mad lot ruling think. It's largely because they got rid of thousands of police, so didn't have enough to cope with a predictable crisis. Useless politicians without much competence. Armed military were supposed to reassure and deter - if any deterrence, it would just have been away from the spots where soldiers etc were to somewhere else instead. But the current government think we're too stupid to notice that they are largely stupid and unbelievably arrogant to think that of us. They deserve our contempt." You're talking complete bollocks. How about trying to think a bit before posting. | |||
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"Armed police are not a deterrence for suicide bombers. They are a tool to stop an active situation. I'm sure people can appreciate that you can't just let people go around shooting or stabbing until they run out of bullets or energy. So it's a bit of a straw man argument a bit like saying Road barriers are useless at stopping d*unken drivers, so let's remove them. Different tool for a different job. Spurious argument. " Precisely! Got it in one. | |||
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"Well, they didn't deter the attack, but thank god armed police stopped it 8 minutes after the 1st 999 call. The horror would have been even worse had they not been there. Maybe time for those who say they don't help to think again...." I agree its good that thay wear near by. And I'm glad thay stopped it quickly. | |||
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"all police should be armed, no matter what. everyone should have shoot to kill order already, anyone who runs from any crime police should shoot them injure or kill depending on crime. " To quote a well known 1980s tennis player "You can't be serious !!!) It is not the way we do things here in Britain.... | |||
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" There are a thousand detectives working on the case that the public don't see. "Oh if only | |||
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"all police should be armed, no matter what. everyone should have shoot to kill order already, anyone who runs from any crime police should shoot them injure or kill depending on crime. " You clearly have no idea how difficult it is to determine exactly how much damage to cause when shooting someone. | |||
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"Maybe they would shoot the bomber dead before they push the button but most bombers have timers and remote detonation anyways so tbh it's useless " Proof of that? I suspect it's pure speculation. | |||
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"Maybe they would shoot the bomber dead before they push the button but most bombers have timers and remote detonation anyways so tbh it's useless Proof of that? I suspect it's pure speculation. " It is. Only one of the recent attacks involved an actual bomber, London was knives and fake bombs. Faced with a suspected committed bomber, shoot them. What have you got to lose as you don't know the nature of the device anyway? | |||
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"Maybe they would shoot the bomber dead before they push the button but most bombers have timers and remote detonation anyways so tbh it's useless Proof of that? I suspect it's pure speculation. It is. Only one of the recent attacks involved an actual bomber, London was knives and fake bombs. Faced with a suspected committed bomber, shoot them. What have you got to lose as you don't know the nature of the device anyway?" The point is that suicide bombers do not use timers or remote detonators. The poster is thinking back to the ira, I suspect. | |||
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"Its more of a deterrent then to stop someone blowing themselves up, The recent attack was only stopped in 8 minutes because it was in London anywhere else it would of taken longer, But I still don't think we should arm all police, Maybe if the courts started putting anyone who is caught with a gun or who hides guns for people away for a long time and not just for a few years there would be less guns on the streets" It might have taken longer but not necessarily there are armed response units in every large town and city in the UK. In addition an additional 5 terrorist plans have been disrupted between the Westminster attack in March and yesterday, the armed police are the last resort. None of the recent terrorist attacks involved the use of guns they have used other weapons, bombs, knives, cars and vans | |||
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"Maybe they would shoot the bomber dead before they push the button but most bombers have timers and remote detonation anyways so tbh it's useless Proof of that? I suspect it's pure speculation. It is. Only one of the recent attacks involved an actual bomber, London was knives and fake bombs. Faced with a suspected committed bomber, shoot them. What have you got to lose as you don't know the nature of the device anyway? The point is that suicide bombers do not use timers or remote detonators. The poster is thinking back to the ira, I suspect. " Sophisticated ones might, in case they get cold feet at the last minute, their buddy can help them out. Or they may have a dead man's switch. | |||
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"Its more of a deterrent then to stop someone blowing themselves up, The recent attack was only stopped in 8 minutes because it was in London anywhere else it would of taken longer, But I still don't think we should arm all police, Maybe if the courts started putting anyone who is caught with a gun or who hides guns for people away for a long time and not just for a few years there would be less guns on the streets" my mate got 25years for dealing arms illegally , it's not a light sentence really. | |||
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