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Vegans

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By *ushandkitty OP   Couple
over a year ago

Gloucester

A thought popped into my (slightly twisted) mind the other day. Do vegans breast feed their children?

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By *andVBCouple
over a year ago

Wrexham


"A thought popped into my (slightly twisted) mind the other day. Do vegans breast feed their children? "

Yes, why wouldn't they?

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By *ushandkitty OP   Couple
over a year ago

Gloucester

[Removed by poster at 03/04/17 01:59:23]

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By *ushandkitty OP   Couple
over a year ago

Gloucester


"A thought popped into my (slightly twisted) mind the other day. Do vegans breast feed their children?

Yes, why wouldn't they?"

because human milk is a product from a living animal?

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By *andVBCouple
over a year ago

Wrexham


"A thought popped into my (slightly twisted) mind the other day. Do vegans breast feed their children?

Yes, why wouldn't they?

because human milk is a product from a living animal?"

And is freely given with informed consent.

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By *ushandkitty OP   Couple
over a year ago

Gloucester


"A thought popped into my (slightly twisted) mind the other day. Do vegans breast feed their children?

Yes, why wouldn't they?

because human milk is a product from a living animal?

And is freely given with informed consent."
is veganism to do with consent?? and i'm thinking the dairy cows are quiet pleased to have the milk taken from them from seeing how they swell when they are ready to produce milk.

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By *andVBCouple
over a year ago

Wrexham


"A thought popped into my (slightly twisted) mind the other day. Do vegans breast feed their children?

Yes, why wouldn't they?

because human milk is a product from a living animal?

And is freely given with informed consent.is veganism to do with consent?? and i'm thinking the dairy cows are quiet pleased to have the milk taken from them from seeing how they swell when they are ready to produce milk."

Veganism is about avoiding the exploitation of or causing intentional harm to human and non-human animals.

Forcibly impregnating something so you can later harvest the milk would fall under exploitation. This isn't really comparable to breastfeeding your own child.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

more importantly, do they swallow?

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By *xyzptlk088Man
over a year ago

Galway

I have yet to meet a vegan who hasn't informed me they are vegan but sometimes I can't hear them because......................BACON!!!!!

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I'm often surprised at the number of vegetarians who have no idea about the origins of the word vegetarian.

It's actually from the old languages, it's Sanskrit for "bad hunter".

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"I'm often surprised at the number of vegetarians who have no idea about the origins of the word vegetarian.

It's actually from the old languages, it's Sanskrit for "bad hunter"."

Brilliant

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By *ushandkitty OP   Couple
over a year ago

Gloucester


"

Veganism is about avoiding the exploitation of or causing intentional harm to human and non-human animals.

"

So is it acceptable if an animal lives a long and happy life and dies of old age, to eat it then?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

They'd breastfeed because it's natural, freely available on tap & no animal was hurt or used in the production of it...

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"I'm often surprised at the number of vegetarians who have no idea about the origins of the word vegetarian.

It's actually from the old languages, it's Sanskrit for "bad hunter".

Brilliant "

I thank you. I'm here all week......

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By *andVBCouple
over a year ago

Wrexham


"

Veganism is about avoiding the exploitation of or causing intentional harm to human and non-human animals.

So is it acceptable if an animal lives a long and happy life and dies of old age, to eat it then? "

I don't think there is a single answer to that. Some would be ok with it, some would not. The question of whether the animal was bought/bred for that eventual outcome may be raised.

If this is a topic that actively interests you then there is a wealth of information available online. The Vegan Society would be a good place to start.

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By *xyzptlk088Man
over a year ago

Galway

If our ancestors had embraced veganism at the beginning of our path through existence then chances are we would not exist as a race today,while some tree huggers may be alright with that most normal thinking people would not.We at this moment in time are the apex predator and the dominant life form so until that changes I for one will stay as an omnivore.

P.S. If we aren't supposed to eat meat then why are burgers so frickin tasty?

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By *damandeve4funCouple
over a year ago

Glasgow


"I have yet to meet a vegan who hasn't informed me they are vegan but sometimes I can't hear them because......................BACON!!!!! "

And I've rarely met a meathead who hasn't come up with the "bacon" response. Maybe vegans are more vocal because they are a minority who can feel discriminated against and also because they are proud that they avoid contributing to meat, dairy and other industries that cause pain, suffering, enslavement and early death of animals for the sake of humans' selfish pleasure.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"I have yet to meet a vegan who hasn't informed me they are vegan but sometimes I can't hear them because......................BACON!!!!!

And I've rarely met a meathead who hasn't come up with the "bacon" response. Maybe vegans are more vocal because they are a minority who can feel discriminated against and also because they are proud that they avoid contributing to meat, dairy and other industries that cause pain, suffering, enslavement and early death of animals for the sake of humans' selfish pleasure."

The enslavement of animals?? Fuckin heard it all now

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By *damandeve4funCouple
over a year ago

Glasgow


"I'm often surprised at the number of vegetarians who have no idea about the origins of the word vegetarian.

It's actually from the old languages, it's Sanskrit for "bad hunter"."

I'm never surprised by the number of meatheads who don't know the difference between vegan and vegetarian.

And by how many come up with the "bad hunter" myth. Of course, I do believe that Sanskrit for omnivore is "bad farmer"!

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"I have yet to meet a vegan who hasn't informed me they are vegan but sometimes I can't hear them because......................BACON!!!!!

And I've rarely met a meathead who hasn't come up with the "bacon" response. Maybe vegans are more vocal because they are a minority who can feel discriminated against and also because they are proud that they avoid contributing to meat, dairy and other industries that cause pain, suffering, enslavement and early death of animals for the sake of humans' selfish pleasure."

L.o.l

Enslavement of animals.... while i agree that zoos are not only wrong but quite strange, the majority of animals that are penned and fed on wouldn't exist if we didn't breed or engineer them. They have no use other than the uses we create for them and if we simply let them go it would be an ecological disaster.

Also why do people who claim to care so much about animals barely show the same concern for humans?

Our own species suffers far more than any animal.

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By *damandeve4funCouple
over a year ago

Glasgow


"If our ancestors had embraced veganism at the beginning of our path through existence then chances are we would not exist as a race today,while some tree huggers may be alright with that most normal thinking people would not.We at this moment in time are the apex predator and the dominant life form so until that changes I for one will stay as an omnivore.

P.S. If we aren't supposed to eat meat then why are burgers so frickin tasty?"

Science shows that early man had a mainly plant-based diet and that humans turned to eating more meat as they expanded to areas of the world where there was less edible vegetation. So, yes, eating meat allowed man to expand in terms of population more quickly.

However, for the majority of the developed world now, there is no longer the need to kill animals in the name of survival. Most now can choose either to eat with or without causing pain, suffering, maiming, enslaving and killing animals because, in the main, the only excuse left is for pleasure - whether that be to satisfy taste, fashion or entertainment.

Just because our more developed brain gives us the power to cause harm and exploit others doesn't mean we should do so. Men still have the strength to r*p* their wives/partners, but fortunately we have left that ancestral trait behind, just like keeping fellow humans as slaves and breeding with our own closest relatives.

Above all, non-human animals want to live and should have the right to do so.

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By *unandbuckCouple
over a year ago

Sheffield


"

Veganism is about avoiding the exploitation of or causing intentional harm to human and non-human animals.

So is it acceptable if an animal lives a long and happy life and dies of old age, to eat it then? "

Are you just wanting to discuss veganism in general? That's completely different to the breastfeeding question.

I'm a meat eater. But if someone wants to be a vegan why not just leave them to it, rather than picking at it?

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By *damandeve4funCouple
over a year ago

Glasgow


"I have yet to meet a vegan who hasn't informed me they are vegan but sometimes I can't hear them because......................BACON!!!!!

And I've rarely met a meathead who hasn't come up with the "bacon" response. Maybe vegans are more vocal because they are a minority who can feel discriminated against and also because they are proud that they avoid contributing to meat, dairy and other industries that cause pain, suffering, enslavement and early death of animals for the sake of humans' selfish pleasure.

The enslavement of animals?? Fuckin heard it all now "

How else would you describe keeping billions of living, thinking, feeling beings against their will, making them work for us, using them for our entertainment and killing them long before the end of their natural lifespan?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"I'm often surprised at the number of vegetarians who have no idea about the origins of the word vegetarian.

It's actually from the old languages, it's Sanskrit for "bad hunter".

Brilliant

I thank you. I'm here all week...... "

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"I'm often surprised at the number of vegetarians who have no idea about the origins of the word vegetarian.

It's actually from the old languages, it's Sanskrit for "bad hunter"."

Haha, that makes sense.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"I'm often surprised at the number of vegetarians who have no idea about the origins of the word vegetarian.

It's actually from the old languages, it's Sanskrit for "bad hunter".

I'm never surprised by the number of meatheads who don't know the difference between vegan and vegetarian.

And by how many come up with the "bad hunter" myth. Of course, I do believe that Sanskrit for omnivore is "bad farmer"! "

That awkward moment when an obvious joke is taken oh so seriously........

It's funny how the meat eaters refer to vegetarians as vegetarians, and yet the vegetarians frequently resort to name calling to the meat eaters.

Remember, MY DINNER SHITS ON YOUR DINNER!!!!!!!!

*I don't eat meat by the way.

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By *damandeve4funCouple
over a year ago

Glasgow


"I have yet to meet a vegan who hasn't informed me they are vegan but sometimes I can't hear them because......................BACON!!!!!

And I've rarely met a meathead who hasn't come up with the "bacon" response. Maybe vegans are more vocal because they are a minority who can feel discriminated against and also because they are proud that they avoid contributing to meat, dairy and other industries that cause pain, suffering, enslavement and early death of animals for the sake of humans' selfish pleasure.

L.o.l

Enslavement of animals.... while i agree that zoos are not only wrong but quite strange, the majority of animals that are penned and fed on wouldn't exist if we didn't breed or engineer them. They have no use other than the uses we create for them and if we simply let them go it would be an ecological disaster.

Also why do people who claim to care so much about animals barely show the same concern for humans?

Our own species suffers far more than any animal."

You are quite right to say that most animals that we breed to eat would not exist if we didn't have the meat, dairy, leather or wool industries. However, would you thank humans for your existence if your destiny were to be killed after a few months of life stuck in a tiny cage, pen, warehouse, or, if you are lucky, a field?

Vegans are realistic. We realise that the world will not give up meat and dairy overnight. However, demand is already decreasing in the west (China is a problem as meat eating is growing as the country gets richer) and, as it does so, so will the number of animals who are bred. Supply and demand.

So there will be no need for a mass release of animals into the wild. Those who are saved from the butchers' knife can be neutered, like cats and dogs, so they do not breed and live out the rest of their lives in peace.

The ecological disaster you mention is more likely to come if we don't turn away from meat and dairy.

Emissions as a result of animal exploitation is one of the biggest contributors to climate change. Hence why agencies like the World Health Organisation and the United Nations have for several years now been urging the world to turn to a plant-based diet.

So, rather than vegans being anti-human, we are actually in the vanguard of saving the planet for future generations - both human and other animals.

Indeed, you will usually find that there are an unusually high proportion of vegans in progressive movements who are pressing for better human rights, the feminist movement, LGBT campaigns, trade unions, workers cooperatives, peace campaigns, etc, as well as the environmental movement. That is because vegans, on the whole (there are always exceptions), care about all living beings.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"I have yet to meet a vegan who hasn't informed me they are vegan but sometimes I can't hear them because......................BACON!!!!!

And I've rarely met a meathead who hasn't come up with the "bacon" response. Maybe vegans are more vocal because they are a minority who can feel discriminated against and also because they are proud that they avoid contributing to meat, dairy and other industries that cause pain, suffering, enslavement and early death of animals for the sake of humans' selfish pleasure.

The enslavement of animals?? Fuckin heard it all now

How else would you describe keeping billions of living, thinking, feeling beings against their will, making them work for us, using them for our entertainment and killing them long before the end of their natural lifespan?"

On the subject of exploitation.

There is a marked evolutionary benefit in animals allowing themselves to be domesticated. Dogs for hunting, horses for transport, livestock for a whole host of produce. Free from disease, predation and being provided with food and shelter allows them to exist in far greater numbers than they would otherwise do in the wild.

This is not exploitation but mutualistic symbiosis.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Could someone say "meat is murder" please, it's the only one left on my bingo card....

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"I have yet to meet a vegan who hasn't informed me they are vegan but sometimes I can't hear them because......................BACON!!!!!

And I've rarely met a meathead who hasn't come up with the "bacon" response. Maybe vegans are more vocal because they are a minority who can feel discriminated against and also because they are proud that they avoid contributing to meat, dairy and other industries that cause pain, suffering, enslavement and early death of animals for the sake of humans' selfish pleasure.

The enslavement of animals?? Fuckin heard it all now

How else would you describe keeping billions of living, thinking, feeling beings against their will, making them work for us, using them for our entertainment and killing them long before the end of their natural lifespan?

On the subject of exploitation.

There is a marked evolutionary benefit in animals allowing themselves to be domesticated. Dogs for hunting, horses for transport, livestock for a whole host of produce. Free from disease, predation and being provided with food and shelter allows them to exist in far greater numbers than they would otherwise do in the wild.

This is not exploitation but mutualistic symbiosis."

This.....

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"Could someone say "meat is murder" please, it's the only one left on my bingo card....

"

Meat is Murder!!!!!

But it tastes soooooooo damn good

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"Could someone say "meat is murder" please, it's the only one left on my bingo card....

Meat is Murder!!!!!

But it tastes soooooooo damn good "

HOUSE!!!!!!!!

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"Could someone say "meat is murder" please, it's the only one left on my bingo card....

Meat is Murder!!!!!

But it tastes soooooooo damn good

HOUSE!!!!!!!! "

Congratulations you win todays to Fab prize, a FAF message from your choosen person on fab along with numerous genitalia pictures

*disclaimer, I cannot enforce anyone to send a message of pictures this prize is bogus

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"Could someone say "meat is murder" please, it's the only one left on my bingo card....

Meat is Murder!!!!!

But it tastes soooooooo damn good

HOUSE!!!!!!!!

Congratulations you win todays to Fab prize, a FAF message from your choosen person on fab along with numerous genitalia pictures

*disclaimer, I cannot enforce anyone to send a message of pictures this prize is bogus "

Damn the small print to hell!!!!!!!

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I'm a vegan, not because I love animals, because I hate plants

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By *lem-H-FandangoMan
over a year ago

salisbury

The big question really, is who is worse to get stuck in a lift with, a vegan or a Jehovah witness?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"The big question really, is who is worse to get stuck in a lift with, a vegan or a Jehovah witness? "

Or a vegan jehovah witness that works for a high street charity company

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"I have yet to meet a vegan who hasn't informed me they are vegan but sometimes I can't hear them because......................BACON!!!!!

And I've rarely met a meathead who hasn't come up with the "bacon" response. Maybe vegans are more vocal because they are a minority who can feel discriminated against and also because they are proud that they avoid contributing to meat, dairy and other industries that cause pain, suffering, enslavement and early death of animals for the sake of humans' selfish pleasure.

The enslavement of animals?? Fuckin heard it all now

How else would you describe keeping billions of living, thinking, feeling beings against their will, making them work for us, using them for our entertainment and killing them long before the end of their natural lifespan?"

Farming

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"I have yet to meet a vegan who hasn't informed me they are vegan but sometimes I can't hear them because......................BACON!!!!!

And I've rarely met a meathead who hasn't come up with the "bacon" response. Maybe vegans are more vocal because they are a minority who can feel discriminated against and also because they are proud that they avoid contributing to meat, dairy and other industries that cause pain, suffering, enslavement and early death of animals for the sake of humans' selfish pleasure.

The enslavement of animals?? Fuckin heard it all now

How else would you describe keeping billions of living, thinking, feeling beings against their will, making them work for us, using them for our entertainment and killing them long before the end of their natural lifespan?

Farming "

Winner winner, chicken dinner.

*corrected to "winner winner lettuce leaf....."

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I like meat. I like veggies and fruit.

I do not discriminate anyone who is any different from me be it vegetarian vegan or the very extreme vegans.

I work with vegans and vegetarians. I am the only meat water amongst them.

I have cut out alot of meat, dairy, and concentrated on plant based food.

I have to say I am very happy with how my body responded. I have lost weight. I feel more energetic. Great results with just minor changes to my diet.

Do I still eat meat ? Yes. Once a week.

Do I think I am murdering animals? No. Animals in the wild eat other animals. Should they become vegans?? Most animals are. But even chimps eat meat from time to time.

Each to their own I say.

Don't throw stones from a glass house.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"I'm a vegan, not because I love animals, because I hate plants"

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"I have yet to meet a vegan who hasn't informed me they are vegan but sometimes I can't hear them because......................BACON!!!!!

And I've rarely met a meathead who hasn't come up with the "bacon" response. Maybe vegans are more vocal because they are a minority who can feel discriminated against and also because they are proud that they avoid contributing to meat, dairy and other industries that cause pain, suffering, enslavement and early death of animals for the sake of humans' selfish pleasure.

The enslavement of animals?? Fuckin heard it all now

How else would you describe keeping billions of living, thinking, feeling beings against their will, making them work for us, using them for our entertainment and killing them long before the end of their natural lifespan?

Farming

Winner winner, chicken dinner.

*corrected to "winner winner lettuce leaf.....""

What about the poor lettuce feelings

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"Above all, non-human animals want to live and should have the right to do so."

How on earth can you claim to know what animals "want"?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Or what "rights" they "should have"?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"Above all, non-human animals want to live and should have the right to do so.

How on earth can you claim to know what animals "want"?

"

Have you not heard about the cow mooovement?

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By *inkyLondonpairCouple
over a year ago

London


"Above all, non-human animals want to live and should have the right to do so.

How on earth can you claim to know what animals "want"?

"

I think the fact that all animals struggle quite violently if you try to kill them is a pretty good indication that they want to live.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"Above all, non-human animals want to live and should have the right to do so.

How on earth can you claim to know what animals "want"?

I think the fact that all animals struggle quite violently if you try to kill them is a pretty good indication that they want to live.

"

Instinctive responses are not proof of thoughts.

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By *damandeve4funCouple
over a year ago

Glasgow


"I have yet to meet a vegan who hasn't informed me they are vegan but sometimes I can't hear them because......................BACON!!!!!

And I've rarely met a meathead who hasn't come up with the "bacon" response. Maybe vegans are more vocal because they are a minority who can feel discriminated against and also because they are proud that they avoid contributing to meat, dairy and other industries that cause pain, suffering, enslavement and early death of animals for the sake of humans' selfish pleasure.

The enslavement of animals?? Fuckin heard it all now

How else would you describe keeping billions of living, thinking, feeling beings against their will, making them work for us, using them for our entertainment and killing them long before the end of their natural lifespan?

On the subject of exploitation.

There is a marked evolutionary benefit in animals allowing themselves to be domesticated. Dogs for hunting, horses for transport, livestock for a whole host of produce. Free from disease, predation and being provided with food and shelter allows them to exist in far greater numbers than they would otherwise do in the wild.

This is not exploitation but mutualistic symbiosis."

Mutualism supposes a two-way process. In the main we are not talking domestic animals here, which is another argument, we are talking farmed animals. Billions of animals do not give themselves over willingly to be slaughtered every day after spending time in cages, pens and warehouses just so there can be more of them.

Mutualism also supposes respect and the way we treat farmed animals rarely constitutes respect.

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By *damandeve4funCouple
over a year ago

Glasgow


"Above all, non-human animals want to live and should have the right to do so.

How on earth can you claim to know what animals "want"?

I think the fact that all animals struggle quite violently if you try to kill them is a pretty good indication that they want to live.

"

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By *inkyLondonpairCouple
over a year ago

London


"Above all, non-human animals want to live and should have the right to do so.

How on earth can you claim to know what animals "want"?

I think the fact that all animals struggle quite violently if you try to kill them is a pretty good indication that they want to live.

Instinctive responses are not proof of thoughts."

Who said anything about thoughts? Animals clearly have wants and desires. When my cat starts nosing around the food packet when I am opening it, I think I am on safe ground in believing she wants to eat.

There are many good arguments against animal rights. An assertion that we can't know if animals want to live is not one of them.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I'd be fascinated to know how many dog-owning vegans have their dog's consent for the relationship.

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By *damandeve4funCouple
over a year ago

Glasgow


"Above all, non-human animals want to live and should have the right to do so.

How on earth can you claim to know what animals "want"?

I think the fact that all animals struggle quite violently if you try to kill them is a pretty good indication that they want to live.

Instinctive responses are not proof of thoughts."

Science has shown that animals, even fish, show far more than simple instinctive responses. They have been shown to have feelings of love, compassion and the ability for creative thought and problem solving.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"Above all, non-human animals want to live and should have the right to do so.

How on earth can you claim to know what animals "want"?

I think the fact that all animals struggle quite violently if you try to kill them is a pretty good indication that they want to live.

Instinctive responses are not proof of thoughts.

Science has shown that animals, even fish, show far more than simple instinctive responses. They have been shown to have feelings of love, compassion and the ability for creative thought and problem solving."

This still doesn't give us any grounds for claiming we know what they "want"

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By *unandbuckCouple
over a year ago

Sheffield

Why do some people on vegan threads react with such animosity against vegans? Why does it matter to a meat eater what a vegan believes?

MrB (meat eater)

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"I have yet to meet a vegan who hasn't informed me they are vegan but sometimes I can't hear them because......................BACON!!!!!

And I've rarely met a meathead who hasn't come up with the "bacon" response. Maybe vegans are more vocal because they are a minority who can feel discriminated against and also because they are proud that they avoid contributing to meat, dairy and other industries that cause pain, suffering, enslavement and early death of animals for the sake of humans' selfish pleasure.

The enslavement of animals?? Fuckin heard it all now

How else would you describe keeping billions of living, thinking, feeling beings against their will, making them work for us, using them for our entertainment and killing them long before the end of their natural lifespan?

On the subject of exploitation.

There is a marked evolutionary benefit in animals allowing themselves to be domesticated. Dogs for hunting, horses for transport, livestock for a whole host of produce. Free from disease, predation and being provided with food and shelter allows them to exist in far greater numbers than they would otherwise do in the wild.

This is not exploitation but mutualistic symbiosis.

Mutualism supposes a two-way process. In the main we are not talking domestic animals here, which is another argument, we are talking farmed animals. Billions of animals do not give themselves over willingly to be slaughtered every day after spending time in cages, pens and warehouses just so there can be more of them.

Mutualism also supposes respect and the way we treat farmed animals rarely constitutes respect."

I agree with you vis-a-vis respect, however all farm animals are domesticated, in this you are clearly mistaken.

The evolutionary benefit does indeed work both ways simply fo the reasons i have previously stated.

Having worked in the agricultural industry i find there are many misconceptions regarding how animals are treated. Perhaps you should also base your opinions on said experience.

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By *inkyLondonpairCouple
over a year ago

London


"Above all, non-human animals want to live and should have the right to do so.

How on earth can you claim to know what animals "want"?

I think the fact that all animals struggle quite violently if you try to kill them is a pretty good indication that they want to live.

Instinctive responses are not proof of thoughts.

Science has shown that animals, even fish, show far more than simple instinctive responses. They have been shown to have feelings of love, compassion and the ability for creative thought and problem solving.

This still doesn't give us any grounds for claiming we know what they "want""

Give it up. Its bleeding obvious what animals want. We can tell from their behaviour. On a basic level they want food and warmth and they don't want pain or death. . The fact that they can't articulate these wants in the same way that humans can does not make them any less real.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"Why do some people on vegan threads react with such animosity against vegans? Why does it matter to a meat eater what a vegan believes?

MrB (meat eater)"

The same could be said of any thread on the forum.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"Above all, non-human animals want to live and should have the right to do so.

How on earth can you claim to know what animals "want"?

I think the fact that all animals struggle quite violently if you try to kill them is a pretty good indication that they want to live.

Instinctive responses are not proof of thoughts.

Science has shown that animals, even fish, show far more than simple instinctive responses. They have been shown to have feelings of love, compassion and the ability for creative thought and problem solving.

This still doesn't give us any grounds for claiming we know what they "want"

Give it up. Its bleeding obvious what animals want. We can tell from their behaviour. On a basic level they want food and warmth and they don't want pain or death. . The fact that they can't articulate these wants in the same way that humans can does not make them any less real. "

So animals which are bred and slaughtered humanely will be perfectly happy then (death comes to all whether we like it or not btw)

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By *inkyLondonpairCouple
over a year ago

London


"Above all, non-human animals want to live and should have the right to do so.

How on earth can you claim to know what animals "want"?

I think the fact that all animals struggle quite violently if you try to kill them is a pretty good indication that they want to live.

Instinctive responses are not proof of thoughts.

Science has shown that animals, even fish, show far more than simple instinctive responses. They have been shown to have feelings of love, compassion and the ability for creative thought and problem solving.

This still doesn't give us any grounds for claiming we know what they "want"

Give it up. Its bleeding obvious what animals want. We can tell from their behaviour. On a basic level they want food and warmth and they don't want pain or death. . The fact that they can't articulate these wants in the same way that humans can does not make them any less real.

So animals which are bred and slaughtered humanely will be perfectly happy then (death comes to all whether we like it or not btw)"

Death does indeed come to us all but it's very rare to actually want it. It's even rarer to want a death before ones natural lifespan is up.

Are you suggesting animals are happy to be slaughtered? That they want death?

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By *unandbuckCouple
over a year ago

Sheffield


"Why do some people on vegan threads react with such animosity against vegans? Why does it matter to a meat eater what a vegan believes?

MrB (meat eater)

The same could be said of any thread on the forum."

It sometimes happens on some threads, when someone behaves in a way that adversely affects someone else.

Why does it matter what vegans choose to eat?

I choose to eat meat and am happy for them to eat what they want. Good luck to them following that difficult choice.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"Above all, non-human animals want to live and should have the right to do so.

How on earth can you claim to know what animals "want"?

I think the fact that all animals struggle quite violently if you try to kill them is a pretty good indication that they want to live.

Instinctive responses are not proof of thoughts.

Science has shown that animals, even fish, show far more than simple instinctive responses. They have been shown to have feelings of love, compassion and the ability for creative thought and problem solving.

This still doesn't give us any grounds for claiming we know what they "want"

Give it up. Its bleeding obvious what animals want. We can tell from their behaviour. On a basic level they want food and warmth and they don't want pain or death. . The fact that they can't articulate these wants in the same way that humans can does not make them any less real.

So animals which are bred and slaughtered humanely will be perfectly happy then (death comes to all whether we like it or not btw)

Death does indeed come to us all but it's very rare to actually want it. It's even rarer to want a death before ones natural lifespan is up.

Are you suggesting animals are happy to be slaughtered? That they want death? "

I'd never be so presumptuous as to think I knew what animals wanted.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"Why do some people on vegan threads react with such animosity against vegans? Why does it matter to a meat eater what a vegan believes?

MrB (meat eater)

The same could be said of any thread on the forum.

It sometimes happens on some threads, when someone behaves in a way that adversely affects someone else.

Why does it matter what vegans choose to eat?

I choose to eat meat and am happy for them to eat what they want. Good luck to them following that difficult choice."

It doesn't matter in the slightest, it's simply a thread for amusement -aren't they all?

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By *inkyLondonpairCouple
over a year ago

London


"Above all, non-human animals want to live and should have the right to do so.

How on earth can you claim to know what animals "want"?

I think the fact that all animals struggle quite violently if you try to kill them is a pretty good indication that they want to live.

Instinctive responses are not proof of thoughts.

Science has shown that animals, even fish, show far more than simple instinctive responses. They have been shown to have feelings of love, compassion and the ability for creative thought and problem solving.

This still doesn't give us any grounds for claiming we know what they "want"

Give it up. Its bleeding obvious what animals want. We can tell from their behaviour. On a basic level they want food and warmth and they don't want pain or death. . The fact that they can't articulate these wants in the same way that humans can does not make them any less real.

So animals which are bred and slaughtered humanely will be perfectly happy then (death comes to all whether we like it or not btw)

Death does indeed come to us all but it's very rare to actually want it. It's even rarer to want a death before ones natural lifespan is up.

Are you suggesting animals are happy to be slaughtered? That they want death?

I'd never be so presumptuous as to think I knew what animals wanted."

Really? So going back to my cat example you think I am presumptuous in believing that her behaviour means she wants to eat? It's funny because my presumption has always proved correct. Whenever she behaves like that she then proceeds to eat once the food is out.

I don't know why you are flogging this dead horse. Animals obviously do have wants and we can deduce what their wants are from their behaviour.

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By *teveanddebsCouple
over a year ago

Norwich

Debs was frying bacon earlier, the smell made my mouth water.

Does this happen to vegans when they mow the lawn?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"Above all, non-human animals want to live and should have the right to do so.

How on earth can you claim to know what animals "want"?

I think the fact that all animals struggle quite violently if you try to kill them is a pretty good indication that they want to live.

Instinctive responses are not proof of thoughts.

Science has shown that animals, even fish, show far more than simple instinctive responses. They have been shown to have feelings of love, compassion and the ability for creative thought and problem solving.

This still doesn't give us any grounds for claiming we know what they "want"

Give it up. Its bleeding obvious what animals want. We can tell from their behaviour. On a basic level they want food and warmth and they don't want pain or death. . The fact that they can't articulate these wants in the same way that humans can does not make them any less real.

So animals which are bred and slaughtered humanely will be perfectly happy then (death comes to all whether we like it or not btw)

Death does indeed come to us all but it's very rare to actually want it. It's even rarer to want a death before ones natural lifespan is up.

Are you suggesting animals are happy to be slaughtered? That they want death?

I'd never be so presumptuous as to think I knew what animals wanted.

Really? So going back to my cat example you think I am presumptuous in believing that her behaviour means she wants to eat? It's funny because my presumption has always proved correct. Whenever she behaves like that she then proceeds to eat once the food is out.

I don't know why you are flogging this dead horse. Animals obviously do have wants and we can deduce what their wants are from their behaviour. "

Wanting to eat is another instinct, I'm afraid. So you're the one flogging the dead horse - which surely go against your principles?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Didn't the vegans make first contact with zephraim cochrane after the first warp one flight?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"Above all, non-human animals want to live and should have the right to do so.

How on earth can you claim to know what animals "want"?

I think the fact that all animals struggle quite violently if you try to kill them is a pretty good indication that they want to live.

Instinctive responses are not proof of thoughts.

Science has shown that animals, even fish, show far more than simple instinctive responses. They have been shown to have feelings of love, compassion and the ability for creative thought and problem solving.

This still doesn't give us any grounds for claiming we know what they "want"

Give it up. Its bleeding obvious what animals want. We can tell from their behaviour. On a basic level they want food and warmth and they don't want pain or death. . The fact that they can't articulate these wants in the same way that humans can does not make them any less real.

So animals which are bred and slaughtered humanely will be perfectly happy then (death comes to all whether we like it or not btw)

Death does indeed come to us all but it's very rare to actually want it. It's even rarer to want a death before ones natural lifespan is up.

Are you suggesting animals are happy to be slaughtered? That they want death?

I'd never be so presumptuous as to think I knew what animals wanted."

I know when my dogs hungry?

He throws his food dish around!!

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Is it ok to eat lemmings then ?

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By *inkyLondonpairCouple
over a year ago

London


"Above all, non-human animals want to live and should have the right to do so.

How on earth can you claim to know what animals "want"?

I think the fact that all animals struggle quite violently if you try to kill them is a pretty good indication that they want to live.

Instinctive responses are not proof of thoughts.

Science has shown that animals, even fish, show far more than simple instinctive responses. They have been shown to have feelings of love, compassion and the ability for creative thought and problem solving.

This still doesn't give us any grounds for claiming we know what they "want"

Give it up. Its bleeding obvious what animals want. We can tell from their behaviour. On a basic level they want food and warmth and they don't want pain or death. . The fact that they can't articulate these wants in the same way that humans can does not make them any less real.

So animals which are bred and slaughtered humanely will be perfectly happy then (death comes to all whether we like it or not btw)

Death does indeed come to us all but it's very rare to actually want it. It's even rarer to want a death before ones natural lifespan is up.

Are you suggesting animals are happy to be slaughtered? That they want death?

I'd never be so presumptuous as to think I knew what animals wanted.

Really? So going back to my cat example you think I am presumptuous in believing that her behaviour means she wants to eat? It's funny because my presumption has always proved correct. Whenever she behaves like that she then proceeds to eat once the food is out.

I don't know why you are flogging this dead horse. Animals obviously do have wants and we can deduce what their wants are from their behaviour.

Wanting to eat is another instinct, I'm afraid. So you're the one flogging the dead horse - which surely go against your principles?"

As I said above wanting something does not mean a want cannot be instinctual. You seem to be arguing that if a desire is based on instinct rather than conscious thought, one cannot be said to " want" it. A moments thought will show that is nonsense.

Someone might ask if you want something to eat . I highly doubt you reply. "I don't want anything as the desire for food is instinctual so your question makes no sense" Sex is an instinctual drive. Are you saying that because the drive is instinctual no one actually wants sex?

In other words no one uses the word "want" in the way you suggest it should be used. To want something merely means to desire it. It does not imply conscious thought. Hence we can have a pretty good idea what animals want based on their behaviour.

As it happens I am a meat eater. I just don't like crap arguments oh and even the greatest animal lover wouldn't object to flogging a dead horse. It being already dead and that.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"Above all, non-human animals want to live and should have the right to do so.

How on earth can you claim to know what animals "want"?

I think the fact that all animals struggle quite violently if you try to kill them is a pretty good indication that they want to live.

Instinctive responses are not proof of thoughts.

Science has shown that animals, even fish, show far more than simple instinctive responses. They have been shown to have feelings of love, compassion and the ability for creative thought and problem solving.

This still doesn't give us any grounds for claiming we know what they "want"

Give it up. Its bleeding obvious what animals want. We can tell from their behaviour. On a basic level they want food and warmth and they don't want pain or death. . The fact that they can't articulate these wants in the same way that humans can does not make them any less real.

So animals which are bred and slaughtered humanely will be perfectly happy then (death comes to all whether we like it or not btw)

Death does indeed come to us all but it's very rare to actually want it. It's even rarer to want a death before ones natural lifespan is up.

Are you suggesting animals are happy to be slaughtered? That they want death?

I'd never be so presumptuous as to think I knew what animals wanted.

Really? So going back to my cat example you think I am presumptuous in believing that her behaviour means she wants to eat? It's funny because my presumption has always proved correct. Whenever she behaves like that she then proceeds to eat once the food is out.

I don't know why you are flogging this dead horse. Animals obviously do have wants and we can deduce what their wants are from their behaviour.

Wanting to eat is another instinct, I'm afraid. So you're the one flogging the dead horse - which surely go against your principles?

As I said above wanting something does not mean a want cannot be instinctual. You seem to be arguing that if a desire is based on instinct rather than conscious thought, one cannot be said to " want" it. A moments thought will show that is nonsense.

Someone might ask if you want something to eat . I highly doubt you reply. "I don't want anything as the desire for food is instinctual so your question makes no sense" Sex is an instinctual drive. Are you saying that because the drive is instinctual no one actually wants sex?

In other words no one uses the word "want" in the way you suggest it should be used. To want something merely means to desire it. It does not imply conscious thought. Hence we can have a pretty good idea what animals want based on their behaviour.

As it happens I am a meat eater. I just don't like crap arguments oh and even the greatest animal lover wouldn't object to flogging a dead horse. It being already dead and that. "

And as I said already, accepting this merely confirms that it is nonsense to suggest that it is "wrong" to eat meat,provided the animals are treated humanely and have their "wants" -such as we choose to interpret them - met.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"Why do some people on vegan threads react with such animosity against vegans? Why does it matter to a meat eater what a vegan believes?

MrB (meat eater)

The same could be said of any thread on the forum.

It sometimes happens on some threads, when someone behaves in a way that adversely affects someone else.

Why does it matter what vegans choose to eat?

I choose to eat meat and am happy for them to eat what they want. Good luck to them following that difficult choice."

I agree.

What someone elses beliefs and lifestyles are doesn't affect me. Agree or disagree with those choices is of no consequence to me.

I really don't care about how vegetarians and vegans live their lives.

I just wish they'd stop telling me how to live mine.

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By *hrisANtifCouple
over a year ago

Napoli, Italy


"Why do some people on vegan threads react with such animosity against vegans? Why does it matter to a meat eater what a vegan believes?

MrB (meat eater)"

I don't think meat-eaters have a problem with vegans, I think society as a whole has a problem with one sub-set of society believing it is morally superior to another, which is - not always but certainly frequently - what comes across in most interactions between vegans and meat-eaters when discussing the subject of eating meat.

In our daily lives, I would suggest we meat far more vegans than we actually realise, the subject never comes up, and no one is any the wiser. Unfortunately however, I would suggest that the vast majority of interaction between vegans and non-vegans regarding the subject of eating meat, are approached from the morally superior standpoint I mention above, and many vegans can be exceptionally militant in their opinions. This is what I would suggest most people in society are opposed to, the inability of one group (or even a very small group within a group) to simply live and let live.

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By *unandbuckCouple
over a year ago

Sheffield


"Why do some people on vegan threads react with such animosity against vegans? Why does it matter to a meat eater what a vegan believes?

MrB (meat eater)

I don't think meat-eaters have a problem with vegans, I think society as a whole has a problem with one sub-set of society believing it is morally superior to another, which is - not always but certainly frequently - what comes across in most interactions between vegans and meat-eaters when discussing the subject of eating meat.

In our daily lives, I would suggest we meat far more vegans than we actually realise, the subject never comes up, and no one is any the wiser. Unfortunately however, I would suggest that the vast majority of interaction between vegans and non-vegans regarding the subject of eating meat, are approached from the morally superior standpoint I mention above, and many vegans can be exceptionally militant in their opinions. This is what I would suggest most people in society are opposed to, the inability of one group (or even a very small group within a group) to simply live and let live."

Yes, it has to cut both ways. If you scan down this thread though, it doesn't look great on the meat eaters, we drew first blood this time

Yes, live and let live (not the juicy pigs though )

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"A thought popped into my (slightly twisted) mind the other day. Do vegans breast feed their children? "

This has to be a joke?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"Why do some people on vegan threads react with such animosity against vegans? Why does it matter to a meat eater what a vegan believes?

MrB (meat eater)"

Those who get annoyed at vegans for avoiding meat, eggs, dairy etc are actually just battling with their conscience.

H x

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By *inkyLondonpairCouple
over a year ago

London


"Why do some people on vegan threads react with such animosity against vegans? Why does it matter to a meat eater what a vegan believes?

MrB (meat eater)

Those who get annoyed at vegans for avoiding meat, eggs, dairy etc are actually just battling with their conscience.

H x"

Indeed. I am a meat eater but I recognise its very difficult to justify eating meat ethically. The reality is that meat eaters place their pleasure in eating above suffering to animals. Far better to be open about that than come up with spurious rationalisations.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"Why do some people on vegan threads react with such animosity against vegans? Why does it matter to a meat eater what a vegan believes?

MrB (meat eater)

Those who get annoyed at vegans for avoiding meat, eggs, dairy etc are actually just battling with their conscience.

H x

Indeed. I am a meat eater but I recognise its very difficult to justify eating meat ethically. The reality is that meat eaters place their pleasure in eating above suffering to animals. Far better to be open about that than come up with spurious rationalisations. "

Why assume that others feel the need to "justify" meat-eating, simply because you do? The assignation of rights - which are a human creation, not to mention something which even humans constantly redefine - to animals is ludicrous, particularly when animals are not capable of respecting the same rights in humans.

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By *unandbuckCouple
over a year ago

Sheffield


"Why do some people on vegan threads react with such animosity against vegans? Why does it matter to a meat eater what a vegan believes?

MrB (meat eater)

Those who get annoyed at vegans for avoiding meat, eggs, dairy etc are actually just battling with their conscience.

H x

Indeed. I am a meat eater but I recognise its very difficult to justify eating meat ethically. The reality is that meat eaters place their pleasure in eating above suffering to animals. Far better to be open about that than come up with spurious rationalisations.

Why assume that others feel the need to "justify" meat-eating, simply because you do? The assignation of rights - which are a human creation, not to mention something which even humans constantly redefine - to animals is ludicrous, particularly when animals are not capable of respecting the same rights in humans."

That poster didn't assume others feel the need to justify meat-eating.

Does your statement mean you are happy to treat animals in any way whatsoever, because they aren't capable of showing respect back?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"Why do some people on vegan threads react with such animosity against vegans? Why does it matter to a meat eater what a vegan believes?

MrB (meat eater)

Those who get annoyed at vegans for avoiding meat, eggs, dairy etc are actually just battling with their conscience.

H x

Indeed. I am a meat eater but I recognise its very difficult to justify eating meat ethically. The reality is that meat eaters place their pleasure in eating above suffering to animals. Far better to be open about that than come up with spurious rationalisations.

Why assume that others feel the need to "justify" meat-eating, simply because you do? The assignation of rights - which are a human creation, not to mention something which even humans constantly redefine - to animals is ludicrous, particularly when animals are not capable of respecting the same rights in humans.

That poster didn't assume others feel the need to justify meat-eating.

Does your statement mean you are happy to treat animals in any way whatsoever, because they aren't capable of showing respect back?"

No, simply that I see the assignation of human-style "rights" to non-humans as a ridiculous argument against meat-eating.

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By *inkyLondonpairCouple
over a year ago

London


"Why do some people on vegan threads react with such animosity against vegans? Why does it matter to a meat eater what a vegan believes?

MrB (meat eater)

Those who get annoyed at vegans for avoiding meat, eggs, dairy etc are actually just battling with their conscience.

H x

Indeed. I am a meat eater but I recognise its very difficult to justify eating meat ethically. The reality is that meat eaters place their pleasure in eating above suffering to animals. Far better to be open about that than come up with spurious rationalisations.

Why assume that others feel the need to "justify" meat-eating, simply because you do? The assignation of rights - which are a human creation, not to mention something which even humans constantly redefine - to animals is ludicrous, particularly when animals are not capable of respecting the same rights in humans."

Again you are raising a straw man. I said nothing about animals having rights. Most people would agree with the ethical proposition that you should not kill living creatures merely for your own pleasure. That's a proposition about human conduct. . Eating meat clearly violates that proposition. If it's OK to kill cows because I like eating beef it's difficult to see why I can't go round killing kittens (humanely of course) because I get a thrill out of it.

And you have been trying to justify eating meat. The rather strange argument that we can't know what animals want so we can't know that they don't want to be killed and eaten.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"Why do some people on vegan threads react with such animosity against vegans? Why does it matter to a meat eater what a vegan believes?

MrB (meat eater)

Those who get annoyed at vegans for avoiding meat, eggs, dairy etc are actually just battling with their conscience.

H x

Indeed. I am a meat eater but I recognise its very difficult to justify eating meat ethically. The reality is that meat eaters place their pleasure in eating above suffering to animals. Far better to be open about that than come up with spurious rationalisations.

Why assume that others feel the need to "justify" meat-eating, simply because you do? The assignation of rights - which are a human creation, not to mention something which even humans constantly redefine - to animals is ludicrous, particularly when animals are not capable of respecting the same rights in humans.

That poster didn't assume others feel the need to justify meat-eating.

Does your statement mean you are happy to treat animals in any way whatsoever, because they aren't capable of showing respect back?"

The poster states that it's "difficult" to justify eating meat ethically, they didn't qualify it as something they find personally.

I don't even see a "need to justify" it.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"Why do some people on vegan threads react with such animosity against vegans? Why does it matter to a meat eater what a vegan believes?

MrB (meat eater)

Those who get annoyed at vegans for avoiding meat, eggs, dairy etc are actually just battling with their conscience.

H x

Indeed. I am a meat eater but I recognise its very difficult to justify eating meat ethically. The reality is that meat eaters place their pleasure in eating above suffering to animals. Far better to be open about that than come up with spurious rationalisations.

Why assume that others feel the need to "justify" meat-eating, simply because you do? The assignation of rights - which are a human creation, not to mention something which even humans constantly redefine - to animals is ludicrous, particularly when animals are not capable of respecting the same rights in humans.

Again you are raising a straw man. I said nothing about animals having rights. Most people would agree with the ethical proposition that you should not kill living creatures merely for your own pleasure. That's a proposition about human conduct. . Eating meat clearly violates that proposition. If it's OK to kill cows because I like eating beef it's difficult to see why I can't go round killing kittens (humanely of course) because I get a thrill out of it.

And you have been trying to justify eating meat. The rather strange argument that we can't know what animals want so we can't know that they don't want to be killed and eaten.

"

When you have evidence of their thinking on the subject, I'll be all ears. Humane farming of animals has absolutely no relationship with killing for pleasure - are you suggesting that it's done for sadistic purposes?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

And again, I will state that, in my opinion, purporting animals to have rights that they cannot extend to others in return is simply a nonsense.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

If we were still hunter gatherers we would not be having this conversation because we would be too busy hunting and gathering yes veggies but also animals infact anything that was edible.

Ask a dog what he would preffer to eat meat or veg I'm pretty sure of the answer.

But people have a choice, so why not just let each other get on with it

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By *inkyLondonpairCouple
over a year ago

London


"And again, I will state that, in my opinion, purporting animals to have rights that they cannot extend to others in return is simply a nonsense."

Could you point out where I have said animals have rights.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"And again, I will state that, in my opinion, purporting animals to have rights that they cannot extend to others in return is simply a nonsense.

Could you point out where I have said animals have rights. "

It was a reference to arguments from others earlier.

Btw, if you fancy some roast kitten, have at it, just make the killing as swift and painless as possible.

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By *inkyLondonpairCouple
over a year ago

London


"Why do some people on vegan threads react with such animosity against vegans? Why does it matter to a meat eater what a vegan believes?

MrB (meat eater)

Those who get annoyed at vegans for avoiding meat, eggs, dairy etc are actually just battling with their conscience.

H x

Indeed. I am a meat eater but I recognise its very difficult to justify eating meat ethically. The reality is that meat eaters place their pleasure in eating above suffering to animals. Far better to be open about that than come up with spurious rationalisations.

Why assume that others feel the need to "justify" meat-eating, simply because you do? The assignation of rights - which are a human creation, not to mention something which even humans constantly redefine - to animals is ludicrous, particularly when animals are not capable of respecting the same rights in humans.

Again you are raising a straw man. I said nothing about animals having rights. Most people would agree with the ethical proposition that you should not kill living creatures merely for your own pleasure. That's a proposition about human conduct. . Eating meat clearly violates that proposition. If it's OK to kill cows because I like eating beef it's difficult to see why I can't go round killing kittens (humanely of course) because I get a thrill out of it.

And you have been trying to justify eating meat. The rather strange argument that we can't know what animals want so we can't know that they don't want to be killed and eaten.

When you have evidence of their thinking on the subject, I'll be all ears. Humane farming of animals has absolutely no relationship with killing for pleasure - are you suggesting that it's done for sadistic purposes? "

We can survive without eating meat. Hence it is not a necessity and hence we do it for pleasure. Hence even humane farming involves killing animals for the pleasure of human beings. Killing animals because you get a thrill out of the killing is also killing animals for human pleasure. Albeit a different type of pleasure.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"A thought popped into my (slightly twisted) mind the other day. Do vegans breast feed their children? "

The child isn't vegan. The parent is...

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"Why do some people on vegan threads react with such animosity against vegans? Why does it matter to a meat eater what a vegan believes?

MrB (meat eater)

Those who get annoyed at vegans for avoiding meat, eggs, dairy etc are actually just battling with their conscience.

H x

Indeed. I am a meat eater but I recognise its very difficult to justify eating meat ethically. The reality is that meat eaters place their pleasure in eating above suffering to animals. Far better to be open about that than come up with spurious rationalisations.

Why assume that others feel the need to "justify" meat-eating, simply because you do? The assignation of rights - which are a human creation, not to mention something which even humans constantly redefine - to animals is ludicrous, particularly when animals are not capable of respecting the same rights in humans.

Again you are raising a straw man. I said nothing about animals having rights. Most people would agree with the ethical proposition that you should not kill living creatures merely for your own pleasure. That's a proposition about human conduct. . Eating meat clearly violates that proposition. If it's OK to kill cows because I like eating beef it's difficult to see why I can't go round killing kittens (humanely of course) because I get a thrill out of it.

And you have been trying to justify eating meat. The rather strange argument that we can't know what animals want so we can't know that they don't want to be killed and eaten.

When you have evidence of their thinking on the subject, I'll be all ears. Humane farming of animals has absolutely no relationship with killing for pleasure - are you suggesting that it's done for sadistic purposes?

We can survive without eating meat. Hence it is not a necessity and hence we do it for pleasure. Hence even humane farming involves killing animals for the pleasure of human beings. Killing animals because you get a thrill out of the killing is also killing animals for human pleasure. Albeit a different type of pleasure.

"

We can survive without eating meat, however, we simply don't have to. If you wish to believe that it is wrong to kill something humanely for food, that's your choice, I think differently. The animal world doesn't deal in ethics and we are fundamentally adults.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"Why do some people on vegan threads react with such animosity against vegans? Why does it matter to a meat eater what a vegan believes?

MrB (meat eater)

Those who get annoyed at vegans for avoiding meat, eggs, dairy etc are actually just battling with their conscience.

H x

Indeed. I am a meat eater but I recognise its very difficult to justify eating meat ethically. The reality is that meat eaters place their pleasure in eating above suffering to animals. Far better to be open about that than come up with spurious rationalisations.

Why assume that others feel the need to "justify" meat-eating, simply because you do? The assignation of rights - which are a human creation, not to mention something which even humans constantly redefine - to animals is ludicrous, particularly when animals are not capable of respecting the same rights in humans.

Again you are raising a straw man. I said nothing about animals having rights. Most people would agree with the ethical proposition that you should not kill living creatures merely for your own pleasure. That's a proposition about human conduct. . Eating meat clearly violates that proposition. If it's OK to kill cows because I like eating beef it's difficult to see why I can't go round killing kittens (humanely of course) because I get a thrill out of it.

And you have been trying to justify eating meat. The rather strange argument that we can't know what animals want so we can't know that they don't want to be killed and eaten.

When you have evidence of their thinking on the subject, I'll be all ears. Humane farming of animals has absolutely no relationship with killing for pleasure - are you suggesting that it's done for sadistic purposes?

We can survive without eating meat. Hence it is not a necessity and hence we do it for pleasure. Hence even humane farming involves killing animals for the pleasure of human beings. Killing animals because you get a thrill out of the killing is also killing animals for human pleasure. Albeit a different type of pleasure.

We can survive without eating meat, however, we simply don't have to. If you wish to believe that it is wrong to kill something humanely for food, that's your choice, I think differently. The animal world doesn't deal in ethics and we are fundamentally adults.

"

*animals lol,

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By *unandbuckCouple
over a year ago

Sheffield


"And again, I will state that, in my opinion, purporting animals to have rights that they cannot extend to others in return is simply a nonsense."

They have the 'right' to be kept without cruelty, and to be afforded the best life possible, given their situation.

'Rights' aren't based on the ability to extend them back.

I expect animals to be treated in a humane way, based on our intelligence and knowledge, not on those of the receiver.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"And again, I will state that, in my opinion, purporting animals to have rights that they cannot extend to others in return is simply a nonsense.

They have the 'right' to be kept without cruelty, and to be afforded the best life possible, given their situation.

'Rights' aren't based on the ability to extend them back.

I expect animals to be treated in a humane way, based on our intelligence and knowledge, not on those of the receiver."

Animal rights aren't objectively based on anything, which is why people have different views on them.

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By *inkyLondonpairCouple
over a year ago

London


"Why do some people on vegan threads react with such animosity against vegans? Why does it matter to a meat eater what a vegan believes?

MrB (meat eater)

Those who get annoyed at vegans for avoiding meat, eggs, dairy etc are actually just battling with their conscience.

H x

Indeed. I am a meat eater but I recognise its very difficult to justify eating meat ethically. The reality is that meat eaters place their pleasure in eating above suffering to animals. Far better to be open about that than come up with spurious rationalisations.

Why assume that others feel the need to "justify" meat-eating, simply because you do? The assignation of rights - which are a human creation, not to mention something which even humans constantly redefine - to animals is ludicrous, particularly when animals are not capable of respecting the same rights in humans.

Again you are raising a straw man. I said nothing about animals having rights. Most people would agree with the ethical proposition that you should not kill living creatures merely for your own pleasure. That's a proposition about human conduct. . Eating meat clearly violates that proposition. If it's OK to kill cows because I like eating beef it's difficult to see why I can't go round killing kittens (humanely of course) because I get a thrill out of it.

And you have been trying to justify eating meat. The rather strange argument that we can't know what animals want so we can't know that they don't want to be killed and eaten.

When you have evidence of their thinking on the subject, I'll be all ears. Humane farming of animals has absolutely no relationship with killing for pleasure - are you suggesting that it's done for sadistic purposes?

We can survive without eating meat. Hence it is not a necessity and hence we do it for pleasure. Hence even humane farming involves killing animals for the pleasure of human beings. Killing animals because you get a thrill out of the killing is also killing animals for human pleasure. Albeit a different type of pleasure.

We can survive without eating meat, however, we simply don't have to. If you wish to believe that it is wrong to kill something humanely for food, that's your choice, I think differently. The animal world doesn't deal in ethics and we are fundamentally adults.

"

So then you agree its fine to use animals for our pleasure and the animals needs and desires dont come into it. That's the honesty I was asking for.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"Why do some people on vegan threads react with such animosity against vegans? Why does it matter to a meat eater what a vegan believes?

MrB (meat eater)

Those who get annoyed at vegans for avoiding meat, eggs, dairy etc are actually just battling with their conscience.

H x

Indeed. I am a meat eater but I recognise its very difficult to justify eating meat ethically. The reality is that meat eaters place their pleasure in eating above suffering to animals. Far better to be open about that than come up with spurious rationalisations.

Why assume that others feel the need to "justify" meat-eating, simply because you do? The assignation of rights - which are a human creation, not to mention something which even humans constantly redefine - to animals is ludicrous, particularly when animals are not capable of respecting the same rights in humans.

Again you are raising a straw man. I said nothing about animals having rights. Most people would agree with the ethical proposition that you should not kill living creatures merely for your own pleasure. That's a proposition about human conduct. . Eating meat clearly violates that proposition. If it's OK to kill cows because I like eating beef it's difficult to see why I can't go round killing kittens (humanely of course) because I get a thrill out of it.

And you have been trying to justify eating meat. The rather strange argument that we can't know what animals want so we can't know that they don't want to be killed and eaten.

When you have evidence of their thinking on the subject, I'll be all ears. Humane farming of animals has absolutely no relationship with killing for pleasure - are you suggesting that it's done for sadistic purposes?

We can survive without eating meat. Hence it is not a necessity and hence we do it for pleasure. Hence even humane farming involves killing animals for the pleasure of human beings. Killing animals because you get a thrill out of the killing is also killing animals for human pleasure. Albeit a different type of pleasure.

We can survive without eating meat, however, we simply don't have to. If you wish to believe that it is wrong to kill something humanely for food, that's your choice, I think differently. The animal world doesn't deal in ethics and we are fundamentally adults.

So then you agree its fine to use animals for our pleasure and the animals needs and desires dont come into it. That's the honesty I was asking for.

"

And you're twisting the concept to suit your own agenda, which is exactly what I expected.

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By *unandbuckCouple
over a year ago

Sheffield


"And again, I will state that, in my opinion, purporting animals to have rights that they cannot extend to others in return is simply a nonsense.

They have the 'right' to be kept without cruelty, and to be afforded the best life possible, given their situation.

'Rights' aren't based on the ability to extend them back.

I expect animals to be treated in a humane way, based on our intelligence and knowledge, not on those of the receiver.

Animal rights aren't objectively based on anything, which is why people have different views on them. "

But, when you make a comment along the lines of them not having rights, the implication is that they can be treated in any way.

Are you saying they should be kept in and killed in the most humane way possible?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"And again, I will state that, in my opinion, purporting animals to have rights that they cannot extend to others in return is simply a nonsense.

They have the 'right' to be kept without cruelty, and to be afforded the best life possible, given their situation.

'Rights' aren't based on the ability to extend them back.

I expect animals to be treated in a humane way, based on our intelligence and knowledge, not on those of the receiver.

Animal rights aren't objectively based on anything, which is why people have different views on them.

But, when you make a comment along the lines of them not having rights, the implication is that they can be treated in any way.

Are you saying they should be kept in and killed in the most humane way possible?"

I am, but does that really have anything to do with "rights" or simply our own desire to pat ourselves on the back and say how great we are?

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By *unandbuckCouple
over a year ago

Sheffield


"

Are you saying they should be kept in and killed in the most humane way possible?

I am, but does that really have anything to do with "rights" or simply our own desire to pat ourselves on the back and say how great we are?"

Good. For me, it's about the wellbeing of the animal. I'm not really interested in digging for further points of disagreement though.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"

Are you saying they should be kept in and killed in the most humane way possible?

I am, but does that really have anything to do with "rights" or simply our own desire to pat ourselves on the back and say how great we are?

Good. For me, it's about the wellbeing of the animal. I'm not really interested in digging for further points of disagreement though."
.

Of course it is

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"Why do some people on vegan threads react with such animosity against vegans? Why does it matter to a meat eater what a vegan believes?

MrB (meat eater)

Those who get annoyed at vegans for avoiding meat, eggs, dairy etc are actually just battling with their conscience.

H x

Indeed. I am a meat eater but I recognise its very difficult to justify eating meat ethically. The reality is that meat eaters place their pleasure in eating above suffering to animals. Far better to be open about that than come up with spurious rationalisations.

Why assume that others feel the need to "justify" meat-eating, simply because you do? The assignation of rights - which are a human creation, not to mention something which even humans constantly redefine - to animals is ludicrous, particularly when animals are not capable of respecting the same rights in humans.

Again you are raising a straw man. I said nothing about animals having rights. Most people would agree with the ethical proposition that you should not kill living creatures merely for your own pleasure. That's a proposition about human conduct. . Eating meat clearly violates that proposition. If it's OK to kill cows because I like eating beef it's difficult to see why I can't go round killing kittens (humanely of course) because I get a thrill out of it.

And you have been trying to justify eating meat. The rather strange argument that we can't know what animals want so we can't know that they don't want to be killed and eaten.

When you have evidence of their thinking on the subject, I'll be all ears. Humane farming of animals has absolutely no relationship with killing for pleasure - are you suggesting that it's done for sadistic purposes?

We can survive without eating meat. Hence it is not a necessity and hence we do it for pleasure. Hence even humane farming involves killing animals for the pleasure of human beings. Killing animals because you get a thrill out of the killing is also killing animals for human pleasure. Albeit a different type of pleasure.

"

Your posts on this are very good. Thank you for saying what I want to, but am unable to articulate so well.

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By *inkyLondonpairCouple
over a year ago

London


"Why do some people on vegan threads react with such animosity against vegans? Why does it matter to a meat eater what a vegan believes?

MrB (meat eater)

Those who get annoyed at vegans for avoiding meat, eggs, dairy etc are actually just battling with their conscience.

H x

Indeed. I am a meat eater but I recognise its very difficult to justify eating meat ethically. The reality is that meat eaters place their pleasure in eating above suffering to animals. Far better to be open about that than come up with spurious rationalisations.

Why assume that others feel the need to "justify" meat-eating, simply because you do? The assignation of rights - which are a human creation, not to mention something which even humans constantly redefine - to animals is ludicrous, particularly when animals are not capable of respecting the same rights in humans.

Again you are raising a straw man. I said nothing about animals having rights. Most people would agree with the ethical proposition that you should not kill living creatures merely for your own pleasure. That's a proposition about human conduct. . Eating meat clearly violates that proposition. If it's OK to kill cows because I like eating beef it's difficult to see why I can't go round killing kittens (humanely of course) because I get a thrill out of it.

And you have been trying to justify eating meat. The rather strange argument that we can't know what animals want so we can't know that they don't want to be killed and eaten.

When you have evidence of their thinking on the subject, I'll be all ears. Humane farming of animals has absolutely no relationship with killing for pleasure - are you suggesting that it's done for sadistic purposes?

We can survive without eating meat. Hence it is not a necessity and hence we do it for pleasure. Hence even humane farming involves killing animals for the pleasure of human beings. Killing animals because you get a thrill out of the killing is also killing animals for human pleasure. Albeit a different type of pleasure.

We can survive without eating meat, however, we simply don't have to. If you wish to believe that it is wrong to kill something humanely for food, that's your choice, I think differently. The animal world doesn't deal in ethics and we are fundamentally adults.

So then you agree its fine to use animals for our pleasure and the animals needs and desires dont come into it. That's the honesty I was asking for.

And you're twisting the concept to suit your own agenda, which is exactly what I expected."

How so? You agreed that we don't need to eat meat but as we can and we like it, we should do it. You have also asserted that animals don't have any wants and we can't know how they feel about being killed. Hence it seems fair enough to say that your view is that human pleasure is paramount and that animal needs and desires don't enter into it (because in your view we can never know what those needs and desires are).

Incidentally if we can never know what animals want why should we bother killing them humanely. For all we know they might prefer to be killed inhumanely. Or do you believe animals have a right not to be caused more than the minimum suffering necessary to what humans have in store for them?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"Why do some people on vegan threads react with such animosity against vegans? Why does it matter to a meat eater what a vegan believes?

MrB (meat eater)

Those who get annoyed at vegans for avoiding meat, eggs, dairy etc are actually just battling with their conscience.

H x

Indeed. I am a meat eater but I recognise its very difficult to justify eating meat ethically. The reality is that meat eaters place their pleasure in eating above suffering to animals. Far better to be open about that than come up with spurious rationalisations.

Why assume that others feel the need to "justify" meat-eating, simply because you do? The assignation of rights - which are a human creation, not to mention something which even humans constantly redefine - to animals is ludicrous, particularly when animals are not capable of respecting the same rights in humans.

Again you are raising a straw man. I said nothing about animals having rights. Most people would agree with the ethical proposition that you should not kill living creatures merely for your own pleasure. That's a proposition about human conduct. . Eating meat clearly violates that proposition. If it's OK to kill cows because I like eating beef it's difficult to see why I can't go round killing kittens (humanely of course) because I get a thrill out of it.

And you have been trying to justify eating meat. The rather strange argument that we can't know what animals want so we can't know that they don't want to be killed and eaten.

When you have evidence of their thinking on the subject, I'll be all ears. Humane farming of animals has absolutely no relationship with killing for pleasure - are you suggesting that it's done for sadistic purposes?

We can survive without eating meat. Hence it is not a necessity and hence we do it for pleasure. Hence even humane farming involves killing animals for the pleasure of human beings. Killing animals because you get a thrill out of the killing is also killing animals for human pleasure. Albeit a different type of pleasure.

We can survive without eating meat, however, we simply don't have to. If you wish to believe that it is wrong to kill something humanely for food, that's your choice, I think differently. The animal world doesn't deal in ethics and we are fundamentally adults.

So then you agree its fine to use animals for our pleasure and the animals needs and desires dont come into it. That's the honesty I was asking for.

And you're twisting the concept to suit your own agenda, which is exactly what I expected.

How so? You agreed that we don't need to eat meat but as we can and we like it, we should do it. You have also asserted that animals don't have any wants and we can't know how they feel about being killed. Hence it seems fair enough to say that your view is that human pleasure is paramount and that animal needs and desires don't enter into it (because in your view we can never know what those needs and desires are).

Incidentally if we can never know what animals want why should we bother killing them humanely. For all we know they might prefer to be killed inhumanely. Or do you believe animals have a right not to be caused more than the minimum suffering necessary to what humans have in store for them?

"

All of what we do is essentially for our own benefit, so we can feel ethically justified based on our particular moral code.

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By *rinking-in-laCouple
over a year ago

Bristol


"A thought popped into my (slightly twisted) mind the other day. Do vegans breast feed their children?

Yes, why wouldn't they?"

Not all.

Some complete morons want their babies to be totally vegan and as such use plant based alternatives.

These are very rare as it is clearly a ridiculous idea but they do exist.

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By *inkyLondonpairCouple
over a year ago

London


"Why do some people on vegan threads react with such animosity against vegans? Why does it matter to a meat eater what a vegan believes?

MrB (meat eater)

Those who get annoyed at vegans for avoiding meat, eggs, dairy etc are actually just battling with their conscience.

H x

Indeed. I am a meat eater but I recognise its very difficult to justify eating meat ethically. The reality is that meat eaters place their pleasure in eating above suffering to animals. Far better to be open about that than come up with spurious rationalisations.

Why assume that others feel the need to "justify" meat-eating, simply because you do? The assignation of rights - which are a human creation, not to mention something which even humans constantly redefine - to animals is ludicrous, particularly when animals are not capable of respecting the same rights in humans.

Again you are raising a straw man. I said nothing about animals having rights. Most people would agree with the ethical proposition that you should not kill living creatures merely for your own pleasure. That's a proposition about human conduct. . Eating meat clearly violates that proposition. If it's OK to kill cows because I like eating beef it's difficult to see why I can't go round killing kittens (humanely of course) because I get a thrill out of it.

And you have been trying to justify eating meat. The rather strange argument that we can't know what animals want so we can't know that they don't want to be killed and eaten.

When you have evidence of their thinking on the subject, I'll be all ears. Humane farming of animals has absolutely no relationship with killing for pleasure - are you suggesting that it's done for sadistic purposes?

We can survive without eating meat. Hence it is not a necessity and hence we do it for pleasure. Hence even humane farming involves killing animals for the pleasure of human beings. Killing animals because you get a thrill out of the killing is also killing animals for human pleasure. Albeit a different type of pleasure.

Your posts on this are very good. Thank you for saying what I want to, but am unable to articulate so well. "

Thanks as I say I am a meat eater but I recognise that it is pretty much ethically indefensible. It does my head in when meat eaters try to assert some moral high ground.

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By *inkyLondonpairCouple
over a year ago

London


"Why do some people on vegan threads react with such animosity against vegans? Why does it matter to a meat eater what a vegan believes?

MrB (meat eater)

Those who get annoyed at vegans for avoiding meat, eggs, dairy etc are actually just battling with their conscience.

H x

Indeed. I am a meat eater but I recognise its very difficult to justify eating meat ethically. The reality is that meat eaters place their pleasure in eating above suffering to animals. Far better to be open about that than come up with spurious rationalisations.

Why assume that others feel the need to "justify" meat-eating, simply because you do? The assignation of rights - which are a human creation, not to mention something which even humans constantly redefine - to animals is ludicrous, particularly when animals are not capable of respecting the same rights in humans.

Again you are raising a straw man. I said nothing about animals having rights. Most people would agree with the ethical proposition that you should not kill living creatures merely for your own pleasure. That's a proposition about human conduct. . Eating meat clearly violates that proposition. If it's OK to kill cows because I like eating beef it's difficult to see why I can't go round killing kittens (humanely of course) because I get a thrill out of it.

And you have been trying to justify eating meat. The rather strange argument that we can't know what animals want so we can't know that they don't want to be killed and eaten.

When you have evidence of their thinking on the subject, I'll be all ears. Humane farming of animals has absolutely no relationship with killing for pleasure - are you suggesting that it's done for sadistic purposes?

We can survive without eating meat. Hence it is not a necessity and hence we do it for pleasure. Hence even humane farming involves killing animals for the pleasure of human beings. Killing animals because you get a thrill out of the killing is also killing animals for human pleasure. Albeit a different type of pleasure.

We can survive without eating meat, however, we simply don't have to. If you wish to believe that it is wrong to kill something humanely for food, that's your choice, I think differently. The animal world doesn't deal in ethics and we are fundamentally adults.

So then you agree its fine to use animals for our pleasure and the animals needs and desires dont come into it. That's the honesty I was asking for.

And you're twisting the concept to suit your own agenda, which is exactly what I expected.

How so? You agreed that we don't need to eat meat but as we can and we like it, we should do it. You have also asserted that animals don't have any wants and we can't know how they feel about being killed. Hence it seems fair enough to say that your view is that human pleasure is paramount and that animal needs and desires don't enter into it (because in your view we can never know what those needs and desires are).

Incidentally if we can never know what animals want why should we bother killing them humanely. For all we know they might prefer to be killed inhumanely. Or do you believe animals have a right not to be caused more than the minimum suffering necessary to what humans have in store for them?

All of what we do is essentially for our own benefit, so we can feel ethically justified based on

our particular moral code."

So you think everyone should act on their own individual moral code and shouldn't be criticised for it?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"Why do some people on vegan threads react with such animosity against vegans? Why does it matter to a meat eater what a vegan believes?

MrB (meat eater)

Those who get annoyed at vegans for avoiding meat, eggs, dairy etc are actually just battling with their conscience.

H x

Indeed. I am a meat eater but I recognise its very difficult to justify eating meat ethically. The reality is that meat eaters place their pleasure in eating above suffering to animals. Far better to be open about that than come up with spurious rationalisations.

Why assume that others feel the need to "justify" meat-eating, simply because you do? The assignation of rights - which are a human creation, not to mention something which even humans constantly redefine - to animals is ludicrous, particularly when animals are not capable of respecting the same rights in humans.

Again you are raising a straw man. I said nothing about animals having rights. Most people would agree with the ethical proposition that you should not kill living creatures merely for your own pleasure. That's a proposition about human conduct. . Eating meat clearly violates that proposition. If it's OK to kill cows because I like eating beef it's difficult to see why I can't go round killing kittens (humanely of course) because I get a thrill out of it.

And you have been trying to justify eating meat. The rather strange argument that we can't know what animals want so we can't know that they don't want to be killed and eaten.

When you have evidence of their thinking on the subject, I'll be all ears. Humane farming of animals has absolutely no relationship with killing for pleasure - are you suggesting that it's done for sadistic purposes?

We can survive without eating meat. Hence it is not a necessity and hence we do it for pleasure. Hence even humane farming involves killing animals for the pleasure of human beings. Killing animals because you get a thrill out of the killing is also killing animals for human pleasure. Albeit a different type of pleasure.

Your posts on this are very good. Thank you for saying what I want to, but am unable to articulate so well.

Thanks as I say I am a meat eater but I recognise that it is pretty much ethically indefensible. It does my head in when meat eaters try to assert some moral high ground. "

Me too, on all counts.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"Why do some people on vegan threads react with such animosity against vegans? Why does it matter to a meat eater what a vegan believes?

MrB (meat eater)

Those who get annoyed at vegans for avoiding meat, eggs, dairy etc are actually just battling with their conscience.

H x

Indeed. I am a meat eater but I recognise its very difficult to justify eating meat ethically. The reality is that meat eaters place their pleasure in eating above suffering to animals. Far better to be open about that than come up with spurious rationalisations.

Why assume that others feel the need to "justify" meat-eating, simply because you do? The assignation of rights - which are a human creation, not to mention something which even humans constantly redefine - to animals is ludicrous, particularly when animals are not capable of respecting the same rights in humans.

Again you are raising a straw man. I said nothing about animals having rights. Most people would agree with the ethical proposition that you should not kill living creatures merely for your own pleasure. That's a proposition about human conduct. . Eating meat clearly violates that proposition. If it's OK to kill cows because I like eating beef it's difficult to see why I can't go round killing kittens (humanely of course) because I get a thrill out of it.

And you have been trying to justify eating meat. The rather strange argument that we can't know what animals want so we can't know that they don't want to be killed and eaten.

When you have evidence of their thinking on the subject, I'll be all ears. Humane farming of animals has absolutely no relationship with killing for pleasure - are you suggesting that it's done for sadistic purposes?

We can survive without eating meat. Hence it is not a necessity and hence we do it for pleasure. Hence even humane farming involves killing animals for the pleasure of human beings. Killing animals because you get a thrill out of the killing is also killing animals for human pleasure. Albeit a different type of pleasure.

We can survive without eating meat, however, we simply don't have to. If you wish to believe that it is wrong to kill something humanely for food, that's your choice, I think differently. The animal world doesn't deal in ethics and we are fundamentally adults.

So then you agree its fine to use animals for our pleasure and the animals needs and desires dont come into it. That's the honesty I was asking for.

And you're twisting the concept to suit your own agenda, which is exactly what I expected.

How so? You agreed that we don't need to eat meat but as we can and we like it, we should do it. You have also asserted that animals don't have any wants and we can't know how they feel about being killed. Hence it seems fair enough to say that your view is that human pleasure is paramount and that animal needs and desires don't enter into it (because in your view we can never know what those needs and desires are).

Incidentally if we can never know what animals want why should we bother killing them humanely. For all we know they might prefer to be killed inhumanely. Or do you believe animals have a right not to be caused more than the minimum suffering necessary to what humans have in store for them?

All of what we do is essentially for our own benefit, so we can feel ethically justified based on

our particular moral code.

So you think everyone should act on their own individual moral code and shouldn't be criticised for it? "

Isn't that precisely what swingers are suggesting when they demand non-judgement?

 (closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately
 

By *inkyLondonpairCouple
over a year ago

London


"Why do some people on vegan threads react with such animosity against vegans? Why does it matter to a meat eater what a vegan believes?

MrB (meat eater)

Those who get annoyed at vegans for avoiding meat, eggs, dairy etc are actually just battling with their conscience.

H x

Indeed. I am a meat eater but I recognise its very difficult to justify eating meat ethically. The reality is that meat eaters place their pleasure in eating above suffering to animals. Far better to be open about that than come up with spurious rationalisations.

Why assume that others feel the need to "justify" meat-eating, simply because you do? The assignation of rights - which are a human creation, not to mention something which even humans constantly redefine - to animals is ludicrous, particularly when animals are not capable of respecting the same rights in humans.

Again you are raising a straw man. I said nothing about animals having rights. Most people would agree with the ethical proposition that you should not kill living creatures merely for your own pleasure. That's a proposition about human conduct. . Eating meat clearly violates that proposition. If it's OK to kill cows because I like eating beef it's difficult to see why I can't go round killing kittens (humanely of course) because I get a thrill out of it.

And you have been trying to justify eating meat. The rather strange argument that we can't know what animals want so we can't know that they don't want to be killed and eaten.

When you have evidence of their thinking on the subject, I'll be all ears. Humane farming of animals has absolutely no relationship with killing for pleasure - are you suggesting that it's done for sadistic purposes?

We can survive without eating meat. Hence it is not a necessity and hence we do it for pleasure. Hence even humane farming involves killing animals for the pleasure of human beings. Killing animals because you get a thrill out of the killing is also killing animals for human pleasure. Albeit a different type of pleasure.

We can survive without eating meat, however, we simply don't have to. If you wish to believe that it is wrong to kill something humanely for food, that's your choice, I think differently. The animal world doesn't deal in ethics and we are fundamentally adults.

So then you agree its fine to use animals for our pleasure and the animals needs and desires dont come into it. That's the honesty I was asking for.

And you're twisting the concept to suit your own agenda, which is exactly what I expected.

How so? You agreed that we don't need to eat meat but as we can and we like it, we should do it. You have also asserted that animals don't have any wants and we can't know how they feel about being killed. Hence it seems fair enough to say that your view is that human pleasure is paramount and that animal needs and desires don't enter into it (because in your view we can never know what those needs and desires are).

Incidentally if we can never know what animals want why should we bother killing them humanely. For all we know they might prefer to be killed inhumanely. Or do you believe animals have a right not to be caused more than the minimum suffering necessary to what humans have in store for them?

All of what we do is essentially for our own benefit, so we can feel ethically justified based on

our particular moral code.

So you think everyone should act on their own individual moral code and shouldn't be criticised for it?

Isn't that precisely what swingers are suggesting when they demand non-judgement?"

What about the paedophile who sincerely believes children have a right to their sexuality. Should we respect his moral code?

 (closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately
 

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"Why do some people on vegan threads react with such animosity against vegans? Why does it matter to a meat eater what a vegan believes?

MrB (meat eater)

Those who get annoyed at vegans for avoiding meat, eggs, dairy etc are actually just battling with their conscience.

H x

Indeed. I am a meat eater but I recognise its very difficult to justify eating meat ethically. The reality is that meat eaters place their pleasure in eating above suffering to animals. Far better to be open about that than come up with spurious rationalisations.

Why assume that others feel the need to "justify" meat-eating, simply because you do? The assignation of rights - which are a human creation, not to mention something which even humans constantly redefine - to animals is ludicrous, particularly when animals are not capable of respecting the same rights in humans.

Again you are raising a straw man. I said nothing about animals having rights. Most people would agree with the ethical proposition that you should not kill living creatures merely for your own pleasure. That's a proposition about human conduct. . Eating meat clearly violates that proposition. If it's OK to kill cows because I like eating beef it's difficult to see why I can't go round killing kittens (humanely of course) because I get a thrill out of it.

And you have been trying to justify eating meat. The rather strange argument that we can't know what animals want so we can't know that they don't want to be killed and eaten.

When you have evidence of their thinking on the subject, I'll be all ears. Humane farming of animals has absolutely no relationship with killing for pleasure - are you suggesting that it's done for sadistic purposes?

We can survive without eating meat. Hence it is not a necessity and hence we do it for pleasure. Hence even humane farming involves killing animals for the pleasure of human beings. Killing animals because you get a thrill out of the killing is also killing animals for human pleasure. Albeit a different type of pleasure.

We can survive without eating meat, however, we simply don't have to. If you wish to believe that it is wrong to kill something humanely for food, that's your choice, I think differently. The animal world doesn't deal in ethics and we are fundamentally adults.

So then you agree its fine to use animals for our pleasure and the animals needs and desires dont come into it. That's the honesty I was asking for.

And you're twisting the concept to suit your own agenda, which is exactly what I expected.

How so? You agreed that we don't need to eat meat but as we can and we like it, we should do it. You have also asserted that animals don't have any wants and we can't know how they feel about being killed. Hence it seems fair enough to say that your view is that human pleasure is paramount and that animal needs and desires don't enter into it (because in your view we can never know what those needs and desires are).

Incidentally if we can never know what animals want why should we bother killing them humanely. For all we know they might prefer to be killed inhumanely. Or do you believe animals have a right not to be caused more than the minimum suffering necessary to what humans have in store for them?

All of what we do is essentially for our own benefit, so we can feel ethically justified based on

our particular moral code.

So you think everyone should act on their own individual moral code and shouldn't be criticised for it?

Isn't that precisely what swingers are suggesting when they demand non-judgement?

What about the paedophile who sincerely believes children have a right to their sexuality. Should we respect his moral code? "

Ah, are we now talking legal vs illegal (since the age of consent differs between countries)? I think you will find that animal cruelty is also punishable by law in the UK.

 (closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately
 

By *inkyLondonpairCouple
over a year ago

London


"Why do some people on vegan threads react with such animosity against vegans? Why does it matter to a meat eater what a vegan believes?

MrB (meat eater)

Those who get annoyed at vegans for avoiding meat, eggs, dairy etc are actually just battling with their conscience.

H x

Indeed. I am a meat eater but I recognise its very difficult to justify eating meat ethically. The reality is that meat eaters place their pleasure in eating above suffering to animals. Far better to be open about that than come up with spurious rationalisations.

Why assume that others feel the need to "justify" meat-eating, simply because you do? The assignation of rights - which are a human creation, not to mention something which even humans constantly redefine - to animals is ludicrous, particularly when animals are not capable of respecting the same rights in humans.

Again you are raising a straw man. I said nothing about animals having rights. Most people would agree with the ethical proposition that you should not kill living creatures merely for your own pleasure. That's a proposition about human conduct. . Eating meat clearly violates that proposition. If it's OK to kill cows because I like eating beef it's difficult to see why I can't go round killing kittens (humanely of course) because I get a thrill out of it.

And you have been trying to justify eating meat. The rather strange argument that we can't know what animals want so we can't know that they don't want to be killed and eaten.

When you have evidence of their thinking on the subject, I'll be all ears. Humane farming of animals has absolutely no relationship with killing for pleasure - are you suggesting that it's done for sadistic purposes?

We can survive without eating meat. Hence it is not a necessity and hence we do it for pleasure. Hence even humane farming involves killing animals for the pleasure of human beings. Killing animals because you get a thrill out of the killing is also killing animals for human pleasure. Albeit a different type of pleasure.

We can survive without eating meat, however, we simply don't have to. If you wish to believe that it is wrong to kill something humanely for food, that's your choice, I think differently. The animal world doesn't deal in ethics and we are fundamentally adults.

So then you agree its fine to use animals for our pleasure and the animals needs and desires dont come into it. That's the honesty I was asking for.

And you're twisting the concept to suit your own agenda, which is exactly what I expected.

How so? You agreed that we don't need to eat meat but as we can and we like it, we should do it. You have also asserted that animals don't have any wants and we can't know how they feel about being killed. Hence it seems fair enough to say that your view is that human pleasure is paramount and that animal needs and desires don't enter into it (because in your view we can never know what those needs and desires are).

Incidentally if we can never know what animals want why should we bother killing them humanely. For all we know they might prefer to be killed inhumanely. Or do you believe animals have a right not to be caused more than the minimum suffering necessary to what humans have in store for them?

All of what we do is essentially for our own benefit, so we can feel ethically justified based on

our particular moral code.

So you think everyone should act on their own individual moral code and shouldn't be criticised for it?

Isn't that precisely what swingers are suggesting when they demand non-judgement?

What about the paedophile who sincerely believes children have a right to their sexuality. Should we respect his moral code?

Ah, are we now talking legal vs illegal (since the age of consent differs between countries)? I think you will find that animal cruelty is also punishable by law in the UK.

"

OK. Should we change the law to respect the paedophiles moral code.

 (closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately
 

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"Why do some people on vegan threads react with such animosity against vegans? Why does it matter to a meat eater what a vegan believes?

MrB (meat eater)

Those who get annoyed at vegans for avoiding meat, eggs, dairy etc are actually just battling with their conscience.

H x

Indeed. I am a meat eater but I recognise its very difficult to justify eating meat ethically. The reality is that meat eaters place their pleasure in eating above suffering to animals. Far better to be open about that than come up with spurious rationalisations.

Why assume that others feel the need to "justify" meat-eating, simply because you do? The assignation of rights - which are a human creation, not to mention something which even humans constantly redefine - to animals is ludicrous, particularly when animals are not capable of respecting the same rights in humans.

Again you are raising a straw man. I said nothing about animals having rights. Most people would agree with the ethical proposition that you should not kill living creatures merely for your own pleasure. That's a proposition about human conduct. . Eating meat clearly violates that proposition. If it's OK to kill cows because I like eating beef it's difficult to see why I can't go round killing kittens (humanely of course) because I get a thrill out of it.

And you have been trying to justify eating meat. The rather strange argument that we can't know what animals want so we can't know that they don't want to be killed and eaten.

When you have evidence of their thinking on the subject, I'll be all ears. Humane farming of animals has absolutely no relationship with killing for pleasure - are you suggesting that it's done for sadistic purposes?

We can survive without eating meat. Hence it is not a necessity and hence we do it for pleasure. Hence even humane farming involves killing animals for the pleasure of human beings. Killing animals because you get a thrill out of the killing is also killing animals for human pleasure. Albeit a different type of pleasure.

We can survive without eating meat, however, we simply don't have to. If you wish to believe that it is wrong to kill something humanely for food, that's your choice, I think differently. The animal world doesn't deal in ethics and we are fundamentally adults.

So then you agree its fine to use animals for our pleasure and the animals needs and desires dont come into it. That's the honesty I was asking for.

And you're twisting the concept to suit your own agenda, which is exactly what I expected.

How so? You agreed that we don't need to eat meat but as we can and we like it, we should do it. You have also asserted that animals don't have any wants and we can't know how they feel about being killed. Hence it seems fair enough to say that your view is that human pleasure is paramount and that animal needs and desires don't enter into it (because in your view we can never know what those needs and desires are).

Incidentally if we can never know what animals want why should we bother killing them humanely. For all we know they might prefer to be killed inhumanely. Or do you believe animals have a right not to be caused more than the minimum suffering necessary to what humans have in store for them?

All of what we do is essentially for our own benefit, so we can feel ethically justified based on

our particular moral code.

So you think everyone should act on their own individual moral code and shouldn't be criticised for it?

Isn't that precisely what swingers are suggesting when they demand non-judgement?

What about the paedophile who sincerely believes children have a right to their sexuality. Should we respect his moral code?

Ah, are we now talking legal vs illegal (since the age of consent differs between countries)? I think you will find that animal cruelty is also punishable by law in the UK.

OK. Should we change the law to respect the paedophiles moral code. "

It reflects the predominant values of the society, as do laws prohibiting animal cruelty. I don't see any need to change either. Do you?

 (closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately
 

By *inkyLondonpairCouple
over a year ago

London


"Why do some people on vegan threads react with such animosity against vegans? Why does it matter to a meat eater what a vegan believes?

MrB (meat eater)

Those who get annoyed at vegans for avoiding meat, eggs, dairy etc are actually just battling with their conscience.

H x

Indeed. I am a meat eater but I recognise its very difficult to justify eating meat ethically. The reality is that meat eaters place their pleasure in eating above suffering to animals. Far better to be open about that than come up with spurious rationalisations.

Why assume that others feel the need to "justify" meat-eating, simply because you do? The assignation of rights - which are a human creation, not to mention something which even humans constantly redefine - to animals is ludicrous, particularly when animals are not capable of respecting the same rights in humans.

Again you are raising a straw man. I said nothing about animals having rights. Most people would agree with the ethical proposition that you should not kill living creatures merely for your own pleasure. That's a proposition about human conduct. . Eating meat clearly violates that proposition. If it's OK to kill cows because I like eating beef it's difficult to see why I can't go round killing kittens (humanely of course) because I get a thrill out of it.

And you have been trying to justify eating meat. The rather strange argument that we can't know what animals want so we can't know that they don't want to be killed and eaten.

When you have evidence of their thinking on the subject, I'll be all ears. Humane farming of animals has absolutely no relationship with killing for pleasure - are you suggesting that it's done for sadistic purposes?

We can survive without eating meat. Hence it is not a necessity and hence we do it for pleasure. Hence even humane farming involves killing animals for the pleasure of human beings. Killing animals because you get a thrill out of the killing is also killing animals for human pleasure. Albeit a different type of pleasure.

We can survive without eating meat, however, we simply don't have to. If you wish to believe that it is wrong to kill something humanely for food, that's your choice, I think differently. The animal world doesn't deal in ethics and we are fundamentally adults.

So then you agree its fine to use animals for our pleasure and the animals needs and desires dont come into it. That's the honesty I was asking for.

And you're twisting the concept to suit your own agenda, which is exactly what I expected.

How so? You agreed that we don't need to eat meat but as we can and we like it, we should do it. You have also asserted that animals don't have any wants and we can't know how they feel about being killed. Hence it seems fair enough to say that your view is that human pleasure is paramount and that animal needs and desires don't enter into it (because in your view we can never know what those needs and desires are).

Incidentally if we can never know what animals want why should we bother killing them humanely. For all we know they might prefer to be killed inhumanely. Or do you believe animals have a right not to be caused more than the minimum suffering necessary to what humans have in store for them?

All of what we do is essentially for our own benefit, so we can feel ethically justified based on

our particular moral code.

So you think everyone should act on their own individual moral code and shouldn't be criticised for it?

Isn't that precisely what swingers are suggesting when they demand non-judgement?

What about the paedophile who sincerely believes children have a right to their sexuality. Should we respect his moral code?

Ah, are we now talking legal vs illegal (since the age of consent differs between countries)? I think you will find that animal cruelty is also punishable by law in the UK.

OK. Should we change the law to respect the paedophiles moral code.

It reflects the predominant values of the society, as do laws prohibiting animal cruelty. I don't see any need to change either. Do you?

"

I don't personally but I would have thought that as someone who believes everyones moral code should be respected you would be in favour of abolishing all laws that prevent people acting in accordance with their moral code.

In any event what about the paedophile who doesn't do anything illegal but just argues his point. . Would you respect his moral code?

 (closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately
 

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"Why do some people on vegan threads react with such animosity against vegans? Why does it matter to a meat eater what a vegan believes?

MrB (meat eater)

Those who get annoyed at vegans for avoiding meat, eggs, dairy etc are actually just battling with their conscience.

H x

Indeed. I am a meat eater but I recognise its very difficult to justify eating meat ethically. The reality is that meat eaters place their pleasure in eating above suffering to animals. Far better to be open about that than come up with spurious rationalisations.

Why assume that others feel the need to "justify" meat-eating, simply because you do? The assignation of rights - which are a human creation, not to mention something which even humans constantly redefine - to animals is ludicrous, particularly when animals are not capable of respecting the same rights in humans.

Again you are raising a straw man. I said nothing about animals having rights. Most people would agree with the ethical proposition that you should not kill living creatures merely for your own pleasure. That's a proposition about human conduct. . Eating meat clearly violates that proposition. If it's OK to kill cows because I like eating beef it's difficult to see why I can't go round killing kittens (humanely of course) because I get a thrill out of it.

And you have been trying to justify eating meat. The rather strange argument that we can't know what animals want so we can't know that they don't want to be killed and eaten.

When you have evidence of their thinking on the subject, I'll be all ears. Humane farming of animals has absolutely no relationship with killing for pleasure - are you suggesting that it's done for sadistic purposes?

We can survive without eating meat. Hence it is not a necessity and hence we do it for pleasure. Hence even humane farming involves killing animals for the pleasure of human beings. Killing animals because you get a thrill out of the killing is also killing animals for human pleasure. Albeit a different type of pleasure.

We can survive without eating meat, however, we simply don't have to. If you wish to believe that it is wrong to kill something humanely for food, that's your choice, I think differently. The animal world doesn't deal in ethics and we are fundamentally adults.

So then you agree its fine to use animals for our pleasure and the animals needs and desires dont come into it. That's the honesty I was asking for.

And you're twisting the concept to suit your own agenda, which is exactly what I expected.

How so? You agreed that we don't need to eat meat but as we can and we like it, we should do it. You have also asserted that animals don't have any wants and we can't know how they feel about being killed. Hence it seems fair enough to say that your view is that human pleasure is paramount and that animal needs and desires don't enter into it (because in your view we can never know what those needs and desires are).

Incidentally if we can never know what animals want why should we bother killing them humanely. For all we know they might prefer to be killed inhumanely. Or do you believe animals have a right not to be caused more than the minimum suffering necessary to what humans have in store for them?

All of what we do is essentially for our own benefit, so we can feel ethically justified based on

our particular moral code.

So you think everyone should act on their own individual moral code and shouldn't be criticised for it?

Isn't that precisely what swingers are suggesting when they demand non-judgement?

What about the paedophile who sincerely believes children have a right to their sexuality. Should we respect his moral code?

Ah, are we now talking legal vs illegal (since the age of consent differs between countries)? I think you will find that animal cruelty is also punishable by law in the UK.

OK. Should we change the law to respect the paedophiles moral code.

It reflects the predominant values of the society, as do laws prohibiting animal cruelty. I don't see any need to change either. Do you?

I don't personally but I would have thought that as someone who believes everyones moral code should be respected you would be in favour of abolishing all laws that prevent people acting in accordance with their moral code.

In any event what about the paedophile who doesn't do anything illegal but just argues his point. . Would you respect his moral code? "

I never said everyone's moral code should be respected regardless of it's legality or not, that was not what I was referring to.

I was making the point that people act as they do ultimately so they can feel good about themselves, they are motivated by their own needs and wants, not those of others.

 (closed, thread got too big)

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"And again, I will state that, in my opinion, purporting animals to have rights that they cannot extend to others in return is simply a nonsense.

Could you point out where I have said animals have rights.

It was a reference to arguments from others earlier.

Btw, if you fancy some roast kitten, have at it, just make the killing as swift and painless as possible."

Ooooooh,that was I'll chosen!

Thinks you might have pissed on your chips there!

 (closed, thread got too big)

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By *inkyLondonpairCouple
over a year ago

London


"Why do some people on vegan threads react with such animosity against vegans? Why does it matter to a meat eater what a vegan believes?

MrB (meat eater)

Those who get annoyed at vegans for avoiding meat, eggs, dairy etc are actually just battling with their conscience.

H x

Indeed. I am a meat eater but I recognise its very difficult to justify eating meat ethically. The reality is that meat eaters place their pleasure in eating above suffering to animals. Far better to be open about that than come up with spurious rationalisations.

Why assume that others feel the need to "justify" meat-eating, simply because you do? The assignation of rights - which are a human creation, not to mention something which even humans constantly redefine - to animals is ludicrous, particularly when animals are not capable of respecting the same rights in humans.

Again you are raising a straw man. I said nothing about animals having rights. Most people would agree with the ethical proposition that you should not kill living creatures merely for your own pleasure. That's a proposition about human conduct. . Eating meat clearly violates that proposition. If it's OK to kill cows because I like eating beef it's difficult to see why I can't go round killing kittens (humanely of course) because I get a thrill out of it.

And you have been trying to justify eating meat. The rather strange argument that we can't know what animals want so we can't know that they don't want to be killed and eaten.

When you have evidence of their thinking on the subject, I'll be all ears. Humane farming of animals has absolutely no relationship with killing for pleasure - are you suggesting that it's done for sadistic purposes?

We can survive without eating meat. Hence it is not a necessity and hence we do it for pleasure. Hence even humane farming involves killing animals for the pleasure of human beings. Killing animals because you get a thrill out of the killing is also killing animals for human pleasure. Albeit a different type of pleasure.

We can survive without eating meat, however, we simply don't have to. If you wish to believe that it is wrong to kill something humanely for food, that's your choice, I think differently. The animal world doesn't deal in ethics and we are fundamentally adults.

So then you agree its fine to use animals for our pleasure and the animals needs and desires dont come into it. That's the honesty I was asking for.

And you're twisting the concept to suit your own agenda, which is exactly what I expected.

How so? You agreed that we don't need to eat meat but as we can and we like it, we should do it. You have also asserted that animals don't have any wants and we can't know how they feel about being killed. Hence it seems fair enough to say that your view is that human pleasure is paramount and that animal needs and desires don't enter into it (because in your view we can never know what those needs and desires are).

Incidentally if we can never know what animals want why should we bother killing them humanely. For all we know they might prefer to be killed inhumanely. Or do you believe animals have a right not to be caused more than the minimum suffering necessary to what humans have in store for them?

All of what we do is essentially for our own benefit, so we can feel ethically justified based on

our particular moral code.

So you think everyone should act on their own individual moral code and shouldn't be criticised for it?

Isn't that precisely what swingers are suggesting when they demand non-judgement?

What about the paedophile who sincerely believes children have a right to their sexuality. Should we respect his moral code?

Ah, are we now talking legal vs illegal (since the age of consent differs between countries)? I think you will find that animal cruelty is also punishable by law in the UK.

OK. Should we change the law to respect the paedophiles moral code.

It reflects the predominant values of the society, as do laws prohibiting animal cruelty. I don't see any need to change either. Do you?

I don't personally but I would have thought that as someone who believes everyones moral code should be respected you would be in favour of abolishing all laws that prevent people acting in accordance with their moral code.

In any event what about the paedophile who doesn't do anything illegal but just argues his point. . Would you respect his moral code?

I never said everyone's moral code should be respected regardless of it's legality or not, that was not what I was referring to.

I was making the point that people act as they do ultimately so they can feel good about themselves, they are motivated by their own needs and wants, not those of others."

It's not illegal to argue that sex with children should be legal. If someone argued that on the basis of their moral code would you respect that moral code.

 (closed, thread got too big)

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

And I proposed that swinging vegans would hopefully be in favour of tolerance of the viewpoints of others - in the context of actions which are entirely legal - but hey, I was wrong.

 (closed, thread got too big)

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"Why do some people on vegan threads react with such animosity against vegans? Why does it matter to a meat eater what a vegan believes?

MrB (meat eater)

Those who get annoyed at vegans for avoiding meat, eggs, dairy etc are actually just battling with their conscience.

H x

Indeed. I am a meat eater but I recognise its very difficult to justify eating meat ethically. The reality is that meat eaters place their pleasure in eating above suffering to animals. Far better to be open about that than come up with spurious rationalisations.

Why assume that others feel the need to "justify" meat-eating, simply because you do? The assignation of rights - which are a human creation, not to mention something which even humans constantly redefine - to animals is ludicrous, particularly when animals are not capable of respecting the same rights in humans.

Again you are raising a straw man. I said nothing about animals having rights. Most people would agree with the ethical proposition that you should not kill living creatures merely for your own pleasure. That's a proposition about human conduct. . Eating meat clearly violates that proposition. If it's OK to kill cows because I like eating beef it's difficult to see why I can't go round killing kittens (humanely of course) because I get a thrill out of it.

And you have been trying to justify eating meat. The rather strange argument that we can't know what animals want so we can't know that they don't want to be killed and eaten.

When you have evidence of their thinking on the subject, I'll be all ears. Humane farming of animals has absolutely no relationship with killing for pleasure - are you suggesting that it's done for sadistic purposes?

We can survive without eating meat. Hence it is not a necessity and hence we do it for pleasure. Hence even humane farming involves killing animals for the pleasure of human beings. Killing animals because you get a thrill out of the killing is also killing animals for human pleasure. Albeit a different type of pleasure.

We can survive without eating meat, however, we simply don't have to. If you wish to believe that it is wrong to kill something humanely for food, that's your choice, I think differently. The animal world doesn't deal in ethics and we are fundamentally adults.

So then you agree its fine to use animals for our pleasure and the animals needs and desires dont come into it. That's the honesty I was asking for.

And you're twisting the concept to suit your own agenda, which is exactly what I expected.

How so? You agreed that we don't need to eat meat but as we can and we like it, we should do it. You have also asserted that animals don't have any wants and we can't know how they feel about being killed. Hence it seems fair enough to say that your view is that human pleasure is paramount and that animal needs and desires don't enter into it (because in your view we can never know what those needs and desires are).

Incidentally if we can never know what animals want why should we bother killing them humanely. For all we know they might prefer to be killed inhumanely. Or do you believe animals have a right not to be caused more than the minimum suffering necessary to what humans have in store for them?

All of what we do is essentially for our own benefit, so we can feel ethically justified based on

our particular moral code.

So you think everyone should act on their own individual moral code and shouldn't be criticised for it?

Isn't that precisely what swingers are suggesting when they demand non-judgement?

What about the paedophile who sincerely believes children have a right to their sexuality. Should we respect his moral code?

Ah, are we now talking legal vs illegal (since the age of consent differs between countries)? I think you will find that animal cruelty is also punishable by law in the UK.

OK. Should we change the law to respect the paedophiles moral code.

It reflects the predominant values of the society, as do laws prohibiting animal cruelty. I don't see any need to change either. Do you?

I don't personally but I would have thought that as someone who believes everyones moral code should be respected you would be in favour of abolishing all laws that prevent people acting in accordance with their moral code.

In any event what about the paedophile who doesn't do anything illegal but just argues his point. . Would you respect his moral code?

I never said everyone's moral code should be respected regardless of it's legality or not, that was not what I was referring to.

I was making the point that people act as they do ultimately so they can feel good about themselves, they are motivated by their own needs and wants, not those of others.

It's not illegal to argue that sex with children should be legal. If someone argued that on the basis of their moral code would you respect that moral code. "

Respect? You mean subscribe to it? No, why would you imagine that would be synonymous with not understanding that paedophiles can have different viewpoints?

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By *unandbuckCouple
over a year ago

Sheffield


"And I proposed that swinging vegans would hopefully be in favour of tolerance of the viewpoints of others - in the context of actions which are entirely legal - but hey, I was wrong. "

I don't think any vegans have been on the thread. I didn't see any intolerant posts by them anyway.

MrB (meateater)

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

You have the viewpoint that eating animals is immoral, I don't agree with you. As both views are entirely legal, it's a shame you can't accept mine.

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By *unandbuckCouple
over a year ago

Sheffield


"You have the viewpoint that eating animals is immoral, I don't agree with you. As both views are entirely legal, it's a shame you can't accept mine."

Who?

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By *inkyLondonpairCouple
over a year ago

London


"And I proposed that swinging vegans would hopefully be in favour of tolerance of the viewpoints of others - in the context of actions which are entirely legal - but hey, I was wrong. "

How are they not being tolerant? They are putting their arguments and you are putting yours. They are asserting that eating meat is ethically unsound and you are disagreeing with them. They firmly believe eating meat is wrong. What do you expect? A pat on the back?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"And I proposed that swinging vegans would hopefully be in favour of tolerance of the viewpoints of others - in the context of actions which are entirely legal - but hey, I was wrong.

How are they not being tolerant? They are putting their arguments and you are putting yours. They are asserting that eating meat is ethically unsound and you are disagreeing with them. They firmly believe eating meat is wrong. What do you expect? A pat on the back? "

A tolerance of the viewpoints, not a blanket "I believe eating meat is wrong, therefore it is wrong for all"

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I'm almost 26 and I've never ever eaten meat.....

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"Why do some people on vegan threads react with such animosity against vegans? Why does it matter to a meat eater what a vegan believes?

MrB (meat eater)

Those who get annoyed at vegans for avoiding meat, eggs, dairy etc are actually just battling with their conscience.

H x

Indeed. I am a meat eater but I recognise its very difficult to justify eating meat ethically. The reality is that meat eaters place their pleasure in eating above suffering to animals. Far better to be open about that than come up with spurious rationalisations.

Why assume that others feel the need to "justify" meat-eating, simply because you do? The assignation of rights - which are a human creation, not to mention something which even humans constantly redefine - to animals is ludicrous, particularly when animals are not capable of respecting the same rights in humans.

Again you are raising a straw man. I said nothing about animals having rights. Most people would agree with the ethical proposition that you should not kill living creatures merely for your own pleasure. That's a proposition about human conduct. . Eating meat clearly violates that proposition. If it's OK to kill cows because I like eating beef it's difficult to see why I can't go round killing kittens (humanely of course) because I get a thrill out of it.

And you have been trying to justify eating meat. The rather strange argument that we can't know what animals want so we can't know that they don't want to be killed and eaten.

When you have evidence of their thinking on the subject, I'll be all ears. Humane farming of animals has absolutely no relationship with killing for pleasure - are you suggesting that it's done for sadistic purposes? "

There is absolutely no way to slaughter or farm humanely! Would you like to die by being dropped into a blender alive like they do to male chicks at a day old as they're useless to the egg industry? Would you like to go through the pain of labour and have your calf stolen from you at a day old because some cunt fancies the taste of your breast milk? Would you like to die by being electrocuted and be strung upside down whilst your throat is slit and you die a slow, painful death whilst you bleed you way out? No? That's not humane!

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By *xyzptlk088Man
over a year ago

Galway

I would murder a quarter pounder with cheese and bacon and some taco fries right now

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By *xyzptlk088Man
over a year ago

Galway


"Why do some people on vegan threads react with such animosity against vegans? Why does it matter to a meat eater what a vegan believes?

MrB (meat eater)

Those who get annoyed at vegans for avoiding meat, eggs, dairy etc are actually just battling with their conscience.

H x

Indeed. I am a meat eater but I recognise its very difficult to justify eating meat ethically. The reality is that meat eaters place their pleasure in eating above suffering to animals. Far better to be open about that than come up with spurious rationalisations.

Why assume that others feel the need to "justify" meat-eating, simply because you do? The assignation of rights - which are a human creation, not to mention something which even humans constantly redefine - to animals is ludicrous, particularly when animals are not capable of respecting the same rights in humans.

Again you are raising a straw man. I said nothing about animals having rights. Most people would agree with the ethical proposition that you should not kill living creatures merely for your own pleasure. That's a proposition about human conduct. . Eating meat clearly violates that proposition. If it's OK to kill cows because I like eating beef it's difficult to see why I can't go round killing kittens (humanely of course) because I get a thrill out of it.

And you have been trying to justify eating meat. The rather strange argument that we can't know what animals want so we can't know that they don't want to be killed and eaten.

When you have evidence of their thinking on the subject, I'll be all ears. Humane farming of animals has absolutely no relationship with killing for pleasure - are you suggesting that it's done for sadistic purposes?

There is absolutely no way to slaughter or farm humanely! Would you like to die by being dropped into a blender alive like they do to male chicks at a day old as they're useless to the egg industry? Would you like to go through the pain of labour and have your calf stolen from you at a day old because some cunt fancies the taste of your breast milk? Would you like to die by being electrocuted and be strung upside down whilst your throat is slit and you die a slow, painful death whilst you bleed you way out? No? That's not humane!

"

Dunno it might be fun

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

If you don't agree with eating animals or killing animals for food then you don't agree with feeding pets like dogs and cats or other animals that depend on humans for survival because they eat meat.

Don't bring up the "we shouldn't have pets" because cats were not domesticated by us. They made alliances with us just like some fish follow bigger fish to eat what they leave behind. This is the cycle of life.

I agree that the meat industry needs to change many of its practices and that we eat too much meat. But there is no logical grounds to claim that we must never eat meat. Nonsense! There are experiments which prove that plants feel pain. Look up the experiment done on a plant using anesthesia. It's on YouTube. You cannot survive unless you eat something that is alive. Treat the animals well and minimise the pain during slaughter. Remember that in the wild, they are eaten ALIVE!

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By *yrdwomanWoman
over a year ago

Putting the 'cum' in Eboracum


"not.We at this moment in time are the apex predator and the dominant life form so until that changes I for one will stay as an omnivore."

I think Mr Shark, Mr Bear, and Mr Big Cat might want a word with you about that.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"If you don't agree with eating animals or killing animals for food then you don't agree with feeding pets like dogs and cats or other animals that depend on humans for survival because they eat meat.

Don't bring up the "we shouldn't have pets" because cats were not domesticated by us. They made alliances with us just like some fish follow bigger fish to eat what they leave behind. This is the cycle of life.

I agree that the meat industry needs to change many of its practices and that we eat too much meat. But there is no logical grounds to claim that we must never eat meat. Nonsense! There are experiments which prove that plants feel pain. Look up the experiment done on a plant using anesthesia. It's on YouTube. You cannot survive unless you eat something that is alive. Treat the animals well and minimise the pain during slaughter. Remember that in the wild, they are eaten ALIVE! "

Okay plants feel pain? Tell me, if you were given the choice between killing a and killing a puppy, which would you choose? Plants have no brain, emotions or central nervous system so justifying carnivorous choices with that argument is bullshit.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Formula milk isn't vegetarian... if this has any relevance

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"

Okay plants feel pain? Tell me, if you were given the choice between killing a and killing a puppy, which would you choose? Plants have no brain, emotions or central nervous system so justifying carnivorous choices with that argument is bullshit. "

It depends on which is more advatageous. Are you saying I absolutely MUST choose one ignoring circumstances?

Okay then I choose to kill the . I'm closer to mammals than plants.

Now it's your turn... Tell me, if you had to kill a puppy or a human baby, which one would YOU choose?

Don't be a hypocrite now, just answer like I did.

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By *eliciousladyWoman
over a year ago

Sometimes U.K


"And I proposed that swinging vegans would hopefully be in favour of tolerance of the viewpoints of others - in the context of actions which are entirely legal - but hey, I was wrong.

I don't think any vegans have been on the thread. I didn't see any intolerant posts by them anyway.

MrB (meateater)"

We've usually heard most of the arguments many times over..

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I'm always confused why some people seem to give so many fucks about some people choosing not to eat meat or wear/use animal products.

Just... get on with your life. Live how you feel is ethical.

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By *lem-H-FandangoMan
over a year ago

salisbury

Can vegans eat chicken eggs?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"Formula milk isn't vegetarian... if this has any relevance "

You can by lactose free formula which is veggie, the mainstream ones aren't.

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By *candiumWoman
over a year ago

oban

I'm a meat eater. Don't think it needs justification and i don't think farming is unethical.

Each to their own, I don't understand the vegan POV at all but they are entitled to be different if they choose.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"Can vegans eat chicken eggs?"

Vegans don't eat anything connected with a living creature, including dairy & eggs.

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By *rs Mia WallaceWoman
over a year ago

Bathwyche

U tube....

Dairy is fucking scary

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By *rs Mia WallaceWoman
over a year ago

Bathwyche

Im Vegan

also been vegetarian for 26 years

questions, abuse or any other POV welcome here.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"A thought popped into my (slightly twisted) mind the other day. Do vegans breast feed their children?

Yes, why wouldn't they?

because human milk is a product from a living animal?

And is freely given with informed consent.is veganism to do with consent?? and i'm thinking the dairy cows are quiet pleased to have the milk taken from them from seeing how they swell when they are ready to produce milk.

Veganism is about avoiding the exploitation of or causing intentional harm to human and non-human animals.

Forcibly impregnating something so you can later harvest the milk would fall under exploitation. This isn't really comparable to breastfeeding your own child."
.

Last time i let the bull in the field i can assure you the cows were up for it as much as he was

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By *lem-H-FandangoMan
over a year ago

salisbury


"Can vegans eat chicken eggs?

Vegans don't eat anything connected with a living creature, including dairy & eggs."

Ah ok. I dont understand why not. But like all religions i just dont think that way.

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By *rs Mia WallaceWoman
over a year ago

Bathwyche


"A thought popped into my (slightly twisted) mind the other day. Do vegans breast feed their children?

Yes, why wouldn't they?

because human milk is a product from a living animal?

And is freely given with informed consent.is veganism to do with consent?? and i'm thinking the dairy cows are quiet pleased to have the milk taken from them from seeing how they swell when they are ready to produce milk.

Veganism is about avoiding the exploitation of or causing intentional harm to human and non-human animals.

Forcibly impregnating something so you can later harvest the milk would fall under exploitation. This isn't really comparable to breastfeeding your own child..

Last time i let the bull in the field i can assure you the cows were up for it as much as he was "

yes, but then the calves are ripped away with days or weeks which is highly traumatic for mother and baby. the calf either goes for slaughter if male or fattened up to go through the same forcible ARTIFICIAL insemination so that more milk is produced/calf stolen/forcibley inseminated/milked/calf stolen/milked and it goes on and on.

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By *lem-H-FandangoMan
over a year ago

salisbury


"A thought popped into my (slightly twisted) mind the other day. Do vegans breast feed their children?

Yes, why wouldn't they?

because human milk is a product from a living animal?

And is freely given with informed consent.is veganism to do with consent?? and i'm thinking the dairy cows are quiet pleased to have the milk taken from them from seeing how they swell when they are ready to produce milk.

Veganism is about avoiding the exploitation of or causing intentional harm to human and non-human animals.

Forcibly impregnating something so you can later harvest the milk would fall under exploitation. This isn't really comparable to breastfeeding your own child..

Last time i let the bull in the field i can assure you the cows were up for it as much as he was

yes, but then the calves are ripped away with days or weeks which is highly traumatic for mother and baby. the calf either goes for slaughter if male or fattened up to go through the same forcible ARTIFICIAL insemination so that more milk is produced/calf stolen/forcibley inseminated/milked/calf stolen/milked and it goes on and on.

"

And then we get milk right?

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By *rs Mia WallaceWoman
over a year ago

Bathwyche

Just a thought to all to ponder...

it is not the over prescribing of anti-biotics by Drs that are making antibiotic resistence and issue.

It is the food chain. 80% of use is within the pork industry. That is not vegan propaganda. that is fact. the one the media won't readily say..but the evidence is rife.

So next time you fancy bacon, please consider that your grandkids could likely die due to the fact there are not medicines to kill the viruses... cheers for the superbugs!

Just saying....

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"A thought popped into my (slightly twisted) mind the other day. Do vegans breast feed their children? "
I think when its your own milk yes .

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By *rs Mia WallaceWoman
over a year ago

Bathwyche


"Can vegans eat chicken eggs?

Vegans don't eat anything connected with a living creature, including dairy & eggs.

Ah ok. I dont understand why not. But like all religions i just dont think that way. "

The reason many people probably continue to eat meat is that you prefer to not think about it?

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By *lem-H-FandangoMan
over a year ago

salisbury


"Can vegans eat chicken eggs?

Vegans don't eat anything connected with a living creature, including dairy & eggs.

Ah ok. I dont understand why not. But like all religions i just dont think that way.

The reason many people probably continue to eat meat is that you prefer to not think about it?"

Ah well. I get why you don't want anything to do with cows. But if you had a pet chicken why couldn't you eat it's eggs?

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By *rs Mia WallaceWoman
over a year ago

Bathwyche


"Can vegans eat chicken eggs?

Vegans don't eat anything connected with a living creature, including dairy & eggs.

Ah ok. I dont understand why not. But like all religions i just dont think that way.

The reason many people probably continue to eat meat is that you prefer to not think about it?

Ah well. I get why you don't want anything to do with cows. But if you had a pet chicken why couldn't you eat it's eggs? "

id have no problem with eating its eggs.

but pet chickens are nothing like commercially farmed egg supplies.

You know that right?!

and no, I won't be goaded into any further drivvle!

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"Just a thought to all to ponder...

it is not the over prescribing of anti-biotics by Drs that are making antibiotic resistence and issue.

It is the food chain. 80% of use is within the pork industry. That is not vegan propaganda. that is fact. the one the media won't readily say..but the evidence is rife.

So next time you fancy bacon, please consider that your grandkids could likely die due to the fact there are not medicines to kill the viruses... cheers for the superbugs!

Just saying...."
.

Animal antibiotics are not the same as human ones and yes were still under orders not to overuse them anyhow.

Secondly antibiotics dont kill viruses

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"A thought popped into my (slightly twisted) mind the other day. Do vegans breast feed their children?

Yes, why wouldn't they?

because human milk is a product from a living animal?

And is freely given with informed consent.is veganism to do with consent?? and i'm thinking the dairy cows are quiet pleased to have the milk taken from them from seeing how they swell when they are ready to produce milk.

Veganism is about avoiding the exploitation of or causing intentional harm to human and non-human animals.

Forcibly impregnating something so you can later harvest the milk would fall under exploitation. This isn't really comparable to breastfeeding your own child..

Last time i let the bull in the field i can assure you the cows were up for it as much as he was

yes, but then the calves are ripped away with days or weeks which is highly traumatic for mother and baby. the calf either goes for slaughter if male or fattened up to go through the same forcible ARTIFICIAL insemination so that more milk is produced/calf stolen/forcibley inseminated/milked/calf stolen/milked and it goes on and on.

"
.

Thats coz dairy cattle make shit food, they aint bread for eating but milking.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"Can vegans eat chicken eggs?

Vegans don't eat anything connected with a living creature, including dairy & eggs.

Ah ok. I dont understand why not. But like all religions i just dont think that way.

The reason many people probably continue to eat meat is that you prefer to not think about it?"

We can condemn practices of the vegetable farming industry too like using GMO's, pesticides, etc. No one says that's a reason to stop eating vegetables.

All I say is let's be consistent with the reasons we choose to be vegan or vegetarian.

If we're criticising the meat INDUSTRY then that's a different subject to taking a moral stance by claiming its morally wrong to take an animal's life for food period.

I'm not a vegan but I support the dismantling of mass production and mass farming where animals are not treated kindly and happily during their life. I only eat meat of animals in local farms where they are not mass farmed.

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By *lem-H-FandangoMan
over a year ago

salisbury


"Can vegans eat chicken eggs?

Vegans don't eat anything connected with a living creature, including dairy & eggs.

Ah ok. I dont understand why not. But like all religions i just dont think that way.

The reason many people probably continue to eat meat is that you prefer to not think about it?

Ah well. I get why you don't want anything to do with cows. But if you had a pet chicken why couldn't you eat it's eggs?

id have no problem with eating its eggs.

but pet chickens are nothing like commercially farmed egg supplies.

You know that right?!

and no, I won't be goaded into any further drivvle! "

I've kept my own poultry for years. Of course i know.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"Can vegans eat chicken eggs?

Vegans don't eat anything connected with a living creature, including dairy & eggs.

Ah ok. I dont understand why not. But like all religions i just dont think that way.

The reason many people probably continue to eat meat is that you prefer to not think about it?

We can condemn practices of the vegetable farming industry too like using GMO's, pesticides, etc. No one says that's a reason to stop eating vegetables.

All I say is let's be consistent with the reasons we choose to be vegan or vegetarian.

If we're criticising the meat INDUSTRY then that's a different subject to taking a moral stance by claiming its morally wrong to take an animal's life for food period.

I'm not a vegan but I support the dismantling of mass production and mass farming where animals are not treated kindly and happily during their life. I only eat meat of animals in local farms where they are not mass farmed. "
.

Were trying to feed 7.2 billon people as cheaply as possible and failing massively.

The solution is clearly to produce less at more cost

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"Can vegans eat chicken eggs?

Vegans don't eat anything connected with a living creature, including dairy & eggs.

Ah ok. I dont understand why not. But like all religions i just dont think that way. "

It's a belief / lifestyle choice, we can't all think the same way.

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By *lem-H-FandangoMan
over a year ago

salisbury


"Can vegans eat chicken eggs?

Vegans don't eat anything connected with a living creature, including dairy & eggs.

Ah ok. I dont understand why not. But like all religions i just dont think that way.

It's a belief / lifestyle choice, we can't all think the same way."

Its a religion. I think free thinking for vegans isn't a choice. They can't pick and choose, they have to believe all of it. The parts that make sense and the bollocks.

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By *imiUKMan
over a year ago

Hereford

Omnivore, Vegetarian, Vegan, whatever - animals had to die for all those diets anyway.

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By *lem-H-FandangoMan
over a year ago

salisbury


"Omnivore, Vegetarian, Vegan, whatever - animals had to die for all those diets anyway. "

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By *xyzptlk088Man
over a year ago

Galway


"not.We at this moment in time are the apex predator and the dominant life form so until that changes I for one will stay as an omnivore.

I think Mr Shark, Mr Bear, and Mr Big Cat might want a word with you about that."
#when mister shark bear and big cat kill as many humans as we kill them then they can have a word with me

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By *yrdwomanWoman
over a year ago

Putting the 'cum' in Eboracum


"not.We at this moment in time are the apex predator and the dominant life form so until that changes I for one will stay as an omnivore.

I think Mr Shark, Mr Bear, and Mr Big Cat might want a word with you about that.#when mister shark bear and big cat kill as many humans as we kill them then they can have a word with me"

An apex predator is a predator at the top of a food chain upon which no other creatures prey. Lots of creatures prey on us, including snakes, scorpions, and spiders. We're not even close to being apex predators.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

If you're a vegan and you have a pet cat or dog, you're a hypocrite!

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"not.We at this moment in time are the apex predator and the dominant life form so until that changes I for one will stay as an omnivore.

I think Mr Shark, Mr Bear, and Mr Big Cat might want a word with you about that.#when mister shark bear and big cat kill as many humans as we kill them then they can have a word with me

An apex predator is a predator at the top of a food chain upon which no other creatures prey. Lots of creatures prey on us, including snakes, scorpions, and spiders. We're not even close to being apex predators."

We are the ultimate apex predator. None of the animals you mention actually prey on us and if we follow you logic they'd be the same to lions, tigers etc.

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By *andVBCouple
over a year ago

Wrexham


"If you're a vegan and you have a pet cat or dog, you're a hypocrite! "

Why?

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By *imiUKMan
over a year ago

Hereford


"If you're a vegan and you have a pet cat or dog, you're a hypocrite!

Why?"

Because they are obligate carnivores and not feeding them meat is fucking barbaric.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"If you're a vegan and you have a pet cat or dog, you're a hypocrite! "

You can feed a dog a vegetarian diet. Maybe vegans don't own cats ~ who knows & who cares?!

I never get why some people have to disprove others life choices.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"If you're a vegan and you have a pet cat or dog, you're a hypocrite!

Why?

Because they are obligate carnivores and not feeding them meat is fucking barbaric. "

Dogs are actually omnivores.

Cats can't be veggies.

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By *andVBCouple
over a year ago

Wrexham


"If you're a vegan and you have a pet cat or dog, you're a hypocrite!

Why?

Because they are obligate carnivores and not feeding them meat is fucking barbaric. "

Ok. So the suggestion was that vegans with dogs or cats don't feed them meat? Or that by having a meat-eating pet and feeding them meat the vegan is a hypocrite?

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By *imiUKMan
over a year ago

Hereford


"If you're a vegan and you have a pet cat or dog, you're a hypocrite!

Why?

Because they are obligate carnivores and not feeding them meat is fucking barbaric.

Dogs are actually omnivores.

Cats can't be veggies."

Not really - look at their teeth, look at all wild dogs. They are carnivorous.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"If you're a vegan and you have a pet cat or dog, you're a hypocrite!

Why?

Because they are obligate carnivores and not feeding them meat is fucking barbaric. "

That's right! Especially cats! They cannot survive without meat so if you're vegan then you should not feed a cat as cat food is animal meat.

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By *imiUKMan
over a year ago

Hereford


"If you're a vegan and you have a pet cat or dog, you're a hypocrite!

Why?

Because they are obligate carnivores and not feeding them meat is fucking barbaric.

Ok. So the suggestion was that vegans with dogs or cats don't feed them meat? Or that by having a meat-eating pet and feeding them meat the vegan is a hypocrite?"

Well, you have to feed a carnovore meat, and if you own one, you are either abusing it by not feeding it meat or you are breaking your code of ethics by buyingt into the meat industry.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"If you're a vegan and you have a pet cat or dog, you're a hypocrite!

Why?

Because they are obligate carnivores and not feeding them meat is fucking barbaric.

Dogs are actually omnivores.

Cats can't be veggies.

Not really - look at their teeth, look at all wild dogs. They are carnivorous. "

They're still omnivores.

I have canines too.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Vegans are cruel to animals, no wildlife lives on lentil and carrot farms

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"If you're a vegan and you have a pet cat or dog, you're a hypocrite!

Why?

Because they are obligate carnivores and not feeding them meat is fucking barbaric.

Ok. So the suggestion was that vegans with dogs or cats don't feed them meat? Or that by having a meat-eating pet and feeding them meat the vegan is a hypocrite?

Well, you have to feed a carnovore meat, and if you own one, you are either abusing it by not feeding it meat or you are breaking your code of ethics by buyingt into the meat industry. "

There's no evidence that feeding a dog a vegetarian diet is abusing it, no matter how many times you say it.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"If you're a vegan and you have a pet cat or dog, you're a hypocrite!

Why?

Because they are obligate carnivores and not feeding them meat is fucking barbaric.

Dogs are actually omnivores.

Cats can't be veggies.

Not really - look at their teeth, look at all wild dogs. They are carnivorous.

They're still omnivores.

I have canines too."

For the sake of simplicity let's zero in on cats.

If you are a vegan and you own a cat and feed it then you are a hypocrite! No cats for vegans!

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By *imiUKMan
over a year ago

Hereford


"If you're a vegan and you have a pet cat or dog, you're a hypocrite!

Why?

Because they are obligate carnivores and not feeding them meat is fucking barbaric.

Dogs are actually omnivores.

Cats can't be veggies.

Not really - look at their teeth, look at all wild dogs. They are carnivorous.

They're still omnivores.

I have canines too."

No, they are not.

We have one set of canines, and molars and incisors, we are omnivores. Dogs do not have teeth for processing plant matter. Their teeth are all for slicing flesh, back and front - compare a human molar to a dogs back teeth and you'll see what I mean, They also have a shorter digestive tract, as do all carnivores (as meat is easier to digest).

Dogs can survive eating a diet with plant matter in it, this is not the same thing - ruminants can also survive eating a diet with animal proteins in it..... but then again, didn't that lead to BSE?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"If you're a vegan and you have a pet cat or dog, you're a hypocrite!

Why?

Because they are obligate carnivores and not feeding them meat is fucking barbaric.

Dogs are actually omnivores.

Cats can't be veggies.

Not really - look at their teeth, look at all wild dogs. They are carnivorous.

They're still omnivores.

I have canines too.

For the sake of simplicity let's zero in on cats.

If you are a vegan and you own a cat and feed it then you are a hypocrite! No cats for vegans! "

I've just looked and according to vegan cats website they can be. Specially formulated food pouches.....

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By *andVBCouple
over a year ago

Wrexham


"If you're a vegan and you have a pet cat or dog, you're a hypocrite!

Why?

Because they are obligate carnivores and not feeding them meat is fucking barbaric.

Ok. So the suggestion was that vegans with dogs or cats don't feed them meat? Or that by having a meat-eating pet and feeding them meat the vegan is a hypocrite?

Well, you have to feed a carnovore meat, and if you own one, you are either abusing it by not feeding it meat or you are breaking your code of ethics by buyingt into the meat industry. "

We have dogs, we feed them meat. We don't eat meat ourselves. We're happy with this scenario. Feel free to consider us hypocrites should you want to.

Fab lacks for a shrug emoticon.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"If you're a vegan and you have a pet cat or dog, you're a hypocrite!

Why?

Because they are obligate carnivores and not feeding them meat is fucking barbaric.

Dogs are actually omnivores.

Cats can't be veggies.

Not really - look at their teeth, look at all wild dogs. They are carnivorous.

They're still omnivores.

I have canines too.

No, they are not.

We have one set of canines, and molars and incisors, we are omnivores. Dogs do not have teeth for processing plant matter. Their teeth are all for slicing flesh, back and front - compare a human molar to a dogs back teeth and you'll see what I mean, They also have a shorter digestive tract, as do all carnivores (as meat is easier to digest).

Dogs can survive eating a diet with plant matter in it, this is not the same thing - ruminants can also survive eating a diet with animal proteins in it..... but then again, didn't that lead to BSE?"

The food is derived from other protein sources such as chick peas for example mixed in with kibble.

Not all dogs eat 'wet' food. Rescue centres will use & recommend well known dry food brands. A lot of working dogs are bought up that way too.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"ruminants can also survive eating a diet with animal proteins in it..... but then again, didn't that lead to BSE?"

I think you will find that shamefull form of farming cheap meat is a good argument for being vegan.

I would embrace it if I had any faith in the human race, but I know if we turned on mass to a vegan diet there would be no animals apart from insects and humans

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