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"it is very, very sad for her family.. god bless her and may she sleep in peace. May her family meet her again one day and they all be at peace TOGETHER." Well said fella watching the documentry now nealy in tears | |||
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"Makes me sick how anyone can do it kill a beautiful 13 year old kid. They ban fox hunting witch i disagree with but i think the should send out rapist murders and pedos out and let the hunt chase and kill them " I agree wholeheartedly about the killing of Milly Dowler.. (but not the fox hunting!) Just a note about the word beautiful.. I can remember about 20 years ago, a Downs girl was kidnapped in Southampton (or near I think!) For the first two or three days the nationals covered the story and then decided they had done enough. Only one paper kept up the reporting of progress, right up until they found her body! The Daily Star!! Funny how the dailys normally cover stories for weeks, but I suppose a Downs childs life is worth less! 
So I would say "It makes me sick how anyone can kill any 13 year old kid"
(Not a dig matey and I am sure that is what you meant, just wanted to high light my point!) | |||
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"Makes me sick how anyone can do it kill a beautiful 13 year old kid. They ban fox hunting witch i disagree with but i think the should send out rapist murders and pedos out and let the hunt chase and kill them I agree wholeheartedly about the killing of Milly Dowler.. (but not the fox hunting!) Just a note about the word beautiful.. I can remember about 20 years ago, a Downs girl was kidnapped in Southampton (or near I think!) For the first two or three days the nationals covered the story and then decided they had done enough. Only one paper kept up the reporting of progress, right up until they found her body! The Daily Star!! Funny how the dailys normally cover stories for weeks, but I suppose a Downs childs life is worth less!
So I would say "It makes me sick how anyone can kill any 13 year old kid"
(Not a dig matey and I am sure that is what you meant, just wanted to high light my point!)"Fair point on the milly case but as of fox hunting well dont get me started lol i come from a family of sheep farmers of witch i will take over the farm later in my life i have seen first hand what they do i have seen them kill sheep and not even eat them! We go out shooting them 3 days a week but since hunting with dogs was banned there numbers have more than doubled and lots of people have lost there jobs as they used to work with the hunt plus thousends of hounds have been put down beacuse they cant afford to keep them when they dont use them to hunt and the hounds are not sutible for house pets so i think it is the worse law to ever be passed and mite i add i know of a hunt that still do it i have been part of it so that is a middle finger to the labour party idiots | |||
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"I am beginning to question which interpretation of the word 'justice' does the English legal system currently utilise !" God knows make its so confuseing | |||
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"I am beginning to question which interpretation of the word 'justice' does the English legal system currently utilise !" The Justice system in English Law operates in line and under guidance with/of current laws of the land, as passed into law by parliament....the killer of Milly Dowler was tried and sentenced in accordance with English Law. That is the interpretation of the word 'Justice'..... | |||
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"I am beginning to question which interpretation of the word 'justice' does the English legal system currently utilise ! The Justice system in English Law operates in line and under guidance with/of current laws of the land, as passed into law by parliament....the killer of Milly Dowler was tried and sentenced in accordance with English Law. That is the interpretation of the word 'Justice'..... " for whom ? | |||
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"I am beginning to question which interpretation of the word 'justice' does the English legal system currently utilise ! The Justice system in English Law operates in line and under guidance with/of current laws of the land, as passed into law by parliament....the killer of Milly Dowler was tried and sentenced in accordance with English Law. That is the interpretation of the word 'Justice'..... for whom ?" For us all....we pass laws through our Parliament and not through the front pages of our tabloid press. | |||
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"I am beginning to question which interpretation of the word 'justice' does the English legal system currently utilise ! The Justice system in English Law operates in line and under guidance with/of current laws of the land, as passed into law by parliament....the killer of Milly Dowler was tried and sentenced in accordance with English Law. That is the interpretation of the word 'Justice'..... for whom ? For us all....we pass laws through our Parliament and not through the front pages of our tabloid press." we need to pass some new ones then (and btw i don't read tabloids) | |||
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"I am beginning to question which interpretation of the word 'justice' does the English legal system currently utilise !" Gravy train for those on it might be a start. | |||
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"I am beginning to question which interpretation of the word 'justice' does the English legal system currently utilise ! The Justice system in English Law operates in line and under guidance with/of current laws of the land, as passed into law by parliament....the killer of Milly Dowler was tried and sentenced in accordance with English Law. That is the interpretation of the word 'Justice'..... " Very narrow and restricted _iew there Jane, and what of Precedent? | |||
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"Makes me sick how anyone can do it kill a beautiful 13 year old kid. They ban fox hunting witch i disagree with but i think the should send out rapist murders and pedos out and let the hunt chase and kill them " You seriously believe that that interpretation of "justice" is good for society? | |||
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"I am beginning to question which interpretation of the word 'justice' does the English legal system currently utilise !" A pretty good one. He had a fair trial by jury and they convicted him. Better to be sure than him being able to appeal and get away with it hmm? Of course most people think that if something happens that they don't agree with, it must be wrong. Only on here is the conviction of a murderer still wrong. What more do you want? | |||
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"I am beginning to question which interpretation of the word 'justice' does the English legal system currently utilise ! The Justice system in English Law operates in line and under guidance with/of current laws of the land, as passed into law by parliament....the killer of Milly Dowler was tried and sentenced in accordance with English Law. That is the interpretation of the word 'Justice'..... Very narrow and restricted _iew there Jane, and what of Precedent?" Lee Bellfield murdered Milly Dowler, he was tried for that murder under English Law and found guilty....how is that a narrow and restricted _iew? Or are you advocating the death penalty by public vote on individual cases? | |||
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"Knee jerk reactions on the basis of individual cases of murder.....what difference the murder of Milly Dowler to that of a 15 year old Somalian refugee stabbed to death in a Peckham street last year? The answer is NONE....except the photos of this sweet girl in all the papers and all the TV news programmes gets peoples blood boiling when they think of her being abducted and murdered.....for a few weeks at least then she will be forgotten by the masses. Murder is murder, the system brought her killer to justice, in accordance with English Law." Murder cases are treated diffently. I remember that 7 year old girl that was shot dead with her father a few years ago you did not hear about that for more than a few weeks. Some things I suppose are touched on and some stay in the press... However murders happen everyday we just don't hear about them as they are either posted on a yellow board on a street corner or a few sentence in the local paper.. | |||
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"I am beginning to question which interpretation of the word 'justice' does the English legal system currently utilise ! The Justice system in English Law operates in line and under guidance with/of current laws of the land, as passed into law by parliament....the killer of Milly Dowler was tried and sentenced in accordance with English Law. That is the interpretation of the word 'Justice'..... Very narrow and restricted _iew there Jane, and what of Precedent? Lee Bellfield murdered Milly Dowler, he was tried for that murder under English Law and found guilty....how is that a narrow and restricted _iew? Or are you advocating the death penalty by public vote on individual cases?" Not at all advocating the death penalty. Just saying that Justice covers far more than Statutory Law. My quick best effort would be " a fair, equitable application of all law, whether Statutory or by precedent." But to say that the UK's legal system applies Justice fairly is a joke. | |||
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"Knee jerk reactions on the basis of individual cases of murder.....what difference the murder of Milly Dowler to that of a 15 year old Somalian refugee stabbed to death in a Peckham street last year? The answer is NONE....except the photos of this sweet girl in all the papers and all the TV news programmes gets peoples blood boiling when they think of her being abducted and murdered.....for a few weeks at least then she will be forgotten by the masses. Murder is murder, the system brought her killer to justice, in accordance with English Law." I don't think anyone is denying that he was sentenced in accordance with current guidelines. The wider questions that have arisen as a result of the publicity surrounding this case are however worthy of some consideration both by the public at large and by the legislators. | |||
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"Fair point on the milly case but as of fox hunting well dont get me started lol i come from a family of sheep farmers of witch i will take over the farm later in my life i have seen first hand what they do i have seen them kill sheep and not even eat them! We go out shooting them 3 days a week but since hunting with dogs was banned there numbers have more than doubled and lots of people have lost there jobs as they used to work with the hunt plus thousends of hounds have been put down beacuse they cant afford to keep them when they dont use them to hunt and the hounds are not sutible for house pets so i think it is the worse law to ever be passed and mite i add i know of a hunt that still do it i have been part of it so that is a middle finger to the labour party idiots" Ok, first off I am not suggesting that fxes aren't a pest and they donlt need controlling on that I can accept any farmers point of _iew. But how many foxes did the average hunt bag? My understanding never more than a few so how has the ban led to a doubling in numbers? I suspect it hasn't and this claim is just one of many by pro-hunters that is unsubstantiable. Though if there is a fox census anywhere prooving headcount has increased rather than anecdotal evidence I'll happily accept that I'm wrong. As for unemployment, there is a recession on, people in all sectors are losing jobs for all manner of reasons but again I wonder about the numbers. And dogs been put down - the fault of the ban or the fault of hunters who bred them as killing machines and therein lays the real reason they can't be domesticated. There are plenty of illegal hunts, it doesn;t surprise me that they carry on. Despite the image portrayed by hunters of being upper class and better than us city dwellers, the crime figures for the countryside alliance march in london before the ban shows that mindless crime and contempt for the law is found in all areas of our society. | |||
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"We know that some sentences received are a joke... death by dangerous driving maybe 4 years but is that not murder? " Only in the exceptional case where it is premeditated, eg running your ex over intentionally may be , likely to be traded down in the process. It's not simply the sentencing, the whole process is far from perfect. Oh, to be on a jury. | |||
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"I don't think anyone is denying that he was sentenced in accordance with current guidelines. The wider questions that have arisen as a result of the publicity surrounding this case are however worthy of some consideration both by the public at large and by the legislators. " If we start letting the public decide if someone is guilty (and I don't mean via jury) then we're all in trouble. Or have we forgiotten all the paediatricians who got their houses trashed because some people thought they must be the same as paedophiles.  | |||
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" Oh, to be on a jury." I did jury service last year. It is seriously, SERIOUSLY boring. | |||
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" If we start letting the public decide if someone is guilty (and I don't mean via jury) then we're all in trouble. Or have we forgiotten all the paediatricians who got their houses trashed because some people thought they must be the same as paedophiles. "And didn't Harriet Harman's Court of Public Opinion runa nd run, until it suited her not. | |||
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"Fair point on the milly case but as of fox hunting well dont get me started lol i come from a family of sheep farmers of witch i will take over the farm later in my life i have seen first hand what they do i have seen them kill sheep and not even eat them! We go out shooting them 3 days a week but since hunting with dogs was banned there numbers have more than doubled and lots of people have lost there jobs as they used to work with the hunt plus thousends of hounds have been put down beacuse they cant afford to keep them when they dont use them to hunt and the hounds are not sutible for house pets so i think it is the worse law to ever be passed and mite i add i know of a hunt that still do it i have been part of it so that is a middle finger to the labour party idiots Ok, first off I am not suggesting that fxes aren't a pest and they donlt need controlling on that I can accept any farmers point of _iew. But how many foxes did the average hunt bag? My understanding never more than a few so how has the ban led to a doubling in numbers? I suspect it hasn't and this claim is just one of many by pro-hunters that is unsubstantiable. Though if there is a fox census anywhere prooving headcount has increased rather than anecdotal evidence I'll happily accept that I'm wrong. As for unemployment, there is a recession on, people in all sectors are losing jobs for all manner of reasons but again I wonder about the numbers. And dogs been put down - the fault of the ban or the fault of hunters who bred them as killing machines and therein lays the real reason they can't be domesticated. There are plenty of illegal hunts, it doesn;t surprise me that they carry on. Despite the image portrayed by hunters of being upper class and better than us city dwellers, the crime figures for the countryside alliance march in london before the ban shows that mindless crime and contempt for the law is found in all areas of our society." The killing of foxes at present is far less humane than when hunting was in force. I am going to have a biased _iew on this as been brought up in an extremely horsey background where fox hunting was a way of life for me when younger. Yes hounds are being put down as hunt kennels are closing. foxes are pests they cost farmers thounds of pounds in lost stock. Farming is a dying trade which is a shame. | |||
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" Oh, to be on a jury. I did jury service last year. It is seriously, SERIOUSLY boring." Did you get a man that stole a mars bar??  | |||
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"I don't think anyone is denying that he was sentenced in accordance with current guidelines. The wider questions that have arisen as a result of the publicity surrounding this case are however worthy of some consideration both by the public at large and by the legislators. If we start letting the public decide if someone is guilty (and I don't mean via jury) then we're all in trouble. Or have we forgiotten all the paediatricians who got their houses trashed because some people thought they must be the same as paedophiles. "i never said that the public should be allowed to decide whether someone is guilty or not the point i was making is that as a result of the issues this individual case has thrown up, some public debate and a potential re-evaluation of the legal methodologies currently emploted is maybe necessary there is also a difference between consideration and decision. in any public debate you will always have people at the extremes in a democracy i understand that even extremists are allowed an opinion ? | |||
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" Oh, to be on a jury. I did jury service last year. It is seriously, SERIOUSLY boring. Did you get a man that stole a mars bar?? "Nope. One dangerous driving (he got off) and one racially motivated attack which was declared a mistrial. Zzzzzzzzzz..... | |||
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" Oh, to be on a jury. I did jury service last year. It is seriously, SERIOUSLY boring. Did you get a man that stole a mars bar??
Nope. One dangerous driving (he got off) and one racially motivated attack which was declared a mistrial. Zzzzzzzzzz....."snoringhell | |||
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" Oh, to be on a jury. I did jury service last year. It is seriously, SERIOUSLY boring. Did you get a man that stole a mars bar??
Nope. One dangerous driving (he got off) and one racially motivated attack which was declared a mistrial. Zzzzzzzzzz....."Now if he only HAD nicked a Mars bar | |||
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"I don't think anyone is denying that he was sentenced in accordance with current guidelines. The wider questions that have arisen as a result of the publicity surrounding this case are however worthy of some consideration both by the public at large and by the legislators. If we start letting the public decide if someone is guilty (and I don't mean via jury) then we're all in trouble. Or have we forgiotten all the paediatricians who got their houses trashed because some people thought they must be the same as paedophiles.
i never said that the public should be allowed to decide whether someone is guilty or not
the point i was making is that as a result of the issues this individual case has thrown up, some public debate and a potential re-evaluation of the legal methodologies currently emploted is maybe necessary
there is also a difference between consideration and decision.
in any public debate you will always have people at the extremes
in a democracy i understand that even extremists are allowed an opinion ? "Feel free to have an opinion, but when the extremists start making the law then its time to get good and scared. We have a good and fair(ish) legal system, much more so than in most other countries. I just do not understand why the murder of one girl has got this forum foaming at the mouth when they go missing every day. The guy was caught, tried, convicted and sentenced. What more do you want? | |||
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" Oh, to be on a jury. I did jury service last year. It is seriously, SERIOUSLY boring. Did you get a man that stole a mars bar??
Nope. One dangerous driving (he got off) and one racially motivated attack which was declared a mistrial. Zzzzzzzzzz....."so after that woman was banged up last week for discussing details of the trial she covered on facebook, could wyrdy be the first person jailed for discussing cases on fab ?  | |||
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" Oh, to be on a jury. I did jury service last year. It is seriously, SERIOUSLY boring. Did you get a man that stole a mars bar??
Nope. One dangerous driving (he got off) and one racially motivated attack which was declared a mistrial. Zzzzzzzzzz.....
Now if he only HAD nicked a Mars bar "or twix? | |||
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" Oh, to be on a jury. I did jury service last year. It is seriously, SERIOUSLY boring. Did you get a man that stole a mars bar??
Nope. One dangerous driving (he got off) and one racially motivated attack which was declared a mistrial. Zzzzzzzzzz.....
so after that woman was banged up last week for discussing details of the trial she covered on facebook, could wyrdy be the first person jailed for discussing cases on fab ? "Poor cow I know the feeling with opening your gob on facebook | |||
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" Oh, to be on a jury. I did jury service last year. It is seriously, SERIOUSLY boring. Did you get a man that stole a mars bar??
Nope. One dangerous driving (he got off) and one racially motivated attack which was declared a mistrial. Zzzzzzzzzz.....
so after that woman was banged up last week for discussing details of the trial she covered on facebook, could wyrdy be the first person jailed for discussing cases on fab ? "Slightly different, as both case sare closed. We were told about that. The woman in charge was very cross that it had happened. | |||
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"I don't get what confuses you about this case.....he (Lee Bellfield) was convicted of the murder of Amanda Dowler under English Law in an English court. Why the need of a re-evaluation? Re-evaluate what exactly? So the laws passed hundreds of years ago should remain in place and never changed ? " | |||
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"Levi (Lee) Bellfield has been sentenced to Life imprisonment with a Judges recommendation that he should never be released.....Our maximum sentence for murder unless I am wrong. The same sentence for ALL three murders he committed." That is the highest sentence for murder as we don't have the death sentence so the judge did what was in his power and gave him life and that is within the justice system... | |||
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" Oh, to be on a jury. I did jury service last year. It is seriously, SERIOUSLY boring. Did you get a man that stole a mars bar??
Nope. One dangerous driving (he got off) and one racially motivated attack which was declared a mistrial. Zzzzzzzzzz.....
so after that woman was banged up last week for discussing details of the trial she covered on facebook, could wyrdy be the first person jailed for discussing cases on fab ?
Slightly different, as both case sare closed.
We were told about that. The woman in charge was very cross that it had happened."I'm pullin ur leg hence the and the
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"Levi (Lee) Bellfield has been sentenced to Life imprisonment with a Judges recommendation that he should never be released.....Our maximum sentence for murder unless I am wrong. The same sentence for ALL three murders he committed." Sound fair to me, my comment was aimed at lots of other crimes people do. just seems unless it's high profile the sentance rarely fits what the crime should carry time wise. | |||
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"Changed to what exactly? " In specific reference to this case to something that affords additional 'protection' to the secondary victims of a crime. In terms of law in general, do you believe that once set, laws should never be altered ? | |||
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"However the law has failed in some cases i.e Stephen Lawernce they knew who killed him but could not do a re trial due to double jepodary or something like that.. " It has taken a longtime but I think you will find that 2 of the suspects are on remand for this offence now. | |||
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"However the law has failed in some cases i.e Stephen Lawernce they knew who killed him but could not do a re trial due to double jepodary or something like that.. It has taken a longtime but I think you will find that 2 of the suspects are on remand for this offence now." Yes but about 20 years too late... that was not a dig at your comment by the way.. | |||
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"Changed to what exactly? In specific reference to this case to something that affords additional 'protection' to the secondary victims of a crime. " The cross examination was shocking but it is nit unusual, maybe just unusual in such a high reported case. It is wrong, but unless we abandon innocent till proven guilty an undeniable right of the accused. | |||
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"Changed to what exactly? In specific reference to this case to something that affords additional 'protection' to the secondary victims of a crime. In terms of law in general, do you believe that once set, laws should never be altered ?" I think you are confusing laws with sentencing guidelines....the maximum sentence for murder 'has' changed on more than one occasion.....and is not hundreds of years old. | |||
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"Changed to what exactly? In specific reference to this case to something that affords additional 'protection' to the secondary victims of a crime. The cross examination was shocking but it is nit unusual, maybe just unusual in such a high reported case. It is wrong, but unless we abandon innocent till proven guilty an undeniable right of the accused." the fact that it is not unusual does not make it right maybe we needed a high profile case like this to highlight the fact that it isn't unusual when it maybe should be ? | |||
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" The cross examination was shocking but it is nit unusual, maybe just unusual in such a high reported case. " yet the Government were roundly pilloried for suggesting a discount on the tariff for some crimes ( obviously not serious crime sincluding murder ) But would that not have saved other "shocking cross-examinations" by an early guilty plea. | |||
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" the fact that it is not unusual does not make it right " It's not right. But it's sadly unavoidable. Or do you believe the accused doesnt have the right to cross examin the prosecution as part of their defence? | |||
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"I think you are confusing laws with sentencing guidelines....the maximum sentence for murder 'has' changed on more than one occasion.....and is not hundreds of years old." ok then, let me include pose both as seperate questions : do you think that once set, laws should never be changed ? and do you think that once set, sentencing guidelines should never be changed ? | |||
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" the fact that it is not unusual does not make it right It's not right. But it's sadly unavoidable. Or do you believe the accused doesnt have the right to cross examin the prosecution as part of their defence?" not at all but were the family in this case the prosecution or just secondary victims of the crime ? | |||
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" Or do you believe the accused doesnt have the right to cross examin the prosecution as part of their defence?" But aren't "they" removing that right in cases of the alleged crime of rape? | |||
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"I think you are confusing laws with sentencing guidelines....the maximum sentence for murder 'has' changed on more than one occasion.....and is not hundreds of years old. ok then, let me include pose both as seperate questions : do you think that once set, laws should never be changed ? and do you think that once set, sentencing guidelines should never be changed ?" They are both changed or altered throughout the history of English Law... Do you think they have stood still for hundreds of years? | |||
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"Do you think they have stood still for hundreds of years?" no | |||
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" Jane, the day that British Courts stop convicting innocent people of crimes they did not commit, i will personally buy you as much of Ickyx's production as you can eat, and i can afford. You'll be sick first. The system is flawed by design. " Did I say innocent people aren't convicted of crimes they never committed?.... I said that atrong Cross examination has helped find people innocent...and guilty. | |||
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" the fact that it is not unusual does not make it right It's not right. But it's sadly unavoidable. Or do you believe the accused doesnt have the right to cross examin the prosecution as part of their defence? not at all but were the family in this case the prosecution or just secondary victims of the crime ?" They were undoubtedly victims of the crime. But they were in court as witnesses for the prosecution. So I think both is the answer. | |||
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" the fact that it is not unusual does not make it right It's not right. But it's sadly unavoidable. Or do you believe the accused doesnt have the right to cross examin the prosecution as part of their defence? not at all but were the family in this case the prosecution or just secondary victims of the crime ? They were undoubtedly victims of the crime. But they were in court as witnesses for the prosecution. So I think both is the answer." but wasn't mr belfield allowed some privileges that they weren't ? | |||
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"Counsel for the accused is obliged to follow his client's solicitor's instructions. If the accused says 'xxxxx happened and that's my defence' his advocate has to follow that line - much like a cabbie is obliged to take a hire to a place he'd much rather not go. If the advocate doesn't follow his client's instructions any conviction is likely to be appealed with the obvious consequent trauma for the friends and family of the victim." Not entirely true. Counsel may well withdraw from instructions in specified circumstances. | |||
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"Counsel for the accused is obliged to follow his client's solicitor's instructions. If the accused says 'xxxxx happened and that's my defence' his advocate has to follow that line - much like a cabbie is obliged to take a hire to a place he'd much rather not go. If the advocate doesn't follow his client's instructions any conviction is likely to be appealed with the obvious consequent trauma for the friends and family of the victim. Not entirely true. Counsel may well withdraw from instructions in specified circumstances." Of course. Nonetheless, if you've agreed to stand on behalf of the accused (and taken the SLAB money), you take their instructions as gospel. | |||
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"i assume from the content and wording in some of the posts in this forum that we have some legal professionals amongst us ?" I refer you to the most famous quote from Francis Urquhart. | |||
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"i assume from the content and wording in some of the posts in this forum that we have some legal professionals amongst us ? I refer you to the most famous quote from Francis Urquhart." Is this bus going Clapham way guv? | |||
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" the fact that it is not unusual does not make it right It's not right. But it's sadly unavoidable. Or do you believe the accused doesnt have the right to cross examin the prosecution as part of their defence? not at all but were the family in this case the prosecution or just secondary victims of the crime ? They were undoubtedly victims of the crime. But they were in court as witnesses for the prosecution. So I think both is the answer. but wasn't mr belfield allowed some privileges that they weren't ?" That's the nature of 'innocent till proven guilty'. It can be inconvenient (and I hope no Fabsters ever find themselves in need of such protection) but it provides excellent safeguards for everyone. | |||
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"i assume from the content and wording in some of the posts in this forum that we have some legal professionals amongst us ? I refer you to the most famous quote from Francis Urquhart." firstly who is he ? and secondly, go on let me in on the quote it's too late to google | |||
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"i assume from the content and wording in some of the posts in this forum that we have some legal professionals amongst us ? I refer you to the most famous quote from Francis Urquhart. Is this bus going Clapham way guv?" You deserve a round of applause. | |||
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"i assume from the content and wording in some of the posts in this forum that we have some legal professionals amongst us ? I refer you to the most famous quote from Francis Urquhart. firstly who is he ? and secondly, go on let me in on the quote it's too late to google "It's never too late to Google ......... or be a coalman. | |||
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" That's the nature of 'innocent till proven guilty'. It can be inconvenient (and I hope no Fabsters ever find themselves in need of such protection) but it provides excellent safeguards for everyone." Only in theory, there is too much abuse of process in the system. | |||
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" That's the nature of 'innocent till proven guilty'. It can be inconvenient (and I hope no Fabsters ever find themselves in need of such protection) but it provides excellent safeguards for everyone. Only in theory, there is too much abuse of process in the system. " That's a complete non sequitur. | |||
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"" think the should send out rapist murders and pedos out and let the hunt chase and kill them" But what if for instance,it turns out they are innocent which i know doesn't happen a lot but innocent people soemtimes are convicted of things. I think people like that should get life and it should be life not out in 15 years and they shouldn't have playstations,tv's ect ect prison should be hard for them not a holiday camp " Assuming you're in employment - are you prepared to pay the additional taxes keeping 'lifers' in jail for the duration of their natural life? | |||
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"Law and justice do not go hand in hand in this country. The punishment for any crime isnt fitting. There is killers and peado's, (in fact nearly any crime committed) that get the minimum sentence that can be handed out. Only once released, go onto to comment more crime. Maybe if judges where a little harsher when sentencing these people, and stop giving them slaps on the wrist, it might be more of a deterent. " If we just look at killers, by which I suppose you mean those convicted of murder, the default tariff for murder is life. The judge may recommend a minimum period before consideration of released under licence can be entertained. The bit about under licence is important. Someone 'out on licence' can be re-incarcerted to the original life sentence for just about any offence. That happens quite often. The challenge remains. Are people prepared to pay the money that'd be needed to build and run the number of additional prison places that'd be needed to house all 'lifers' for the remainder of their natural lives? | |||
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"Law and justice do not go hand in hand in this country. The punishment for any crime isnt fitting. There is killers and peado's, (in fact nearly any crime committed) that get the minimum sentence that can be handed out. Only once released, go onto to comment more crime. Maybe if judges where a little harsher when sentencing these people, and stop giving them slaps on the wrist, it might be more of a deterent. If we just look at killers, by which I suppose you mean those convicted of murder, the default tariff for murder is life. The judge may recommend a minimum period before consideration of released under licence can be entertained. The bit about under licence is important. Someone 'out on licence' can be re-incarcerted to the original life sentence for just about any offence. That happens quite often. The challenge remains. Are people prepared to pay the money that'd be needed to build and run the number of additional prison places that'd be needed to house all 'lifers' for the remainder of their natural lives? " Maybe and this is a maybe, if harsher sentences where handed out in the 1st place it might deter more people from committing crime in the 1st place. Personally i have been to few youth justice meetings and these people invovled have a list of crime the lengh of your arm, with each crime getting more and more bolder. There is no deterent there, the parents have no control, the police can only do so much, and the courts are no better. A few years ago I had the awful experience of having to go to court for sexual assault charges against a minor, the person was denying the charges and was gonna make the victims give statements, that was until his previous was read out in court. He had prior charges for the same offence and had also been charged with beastiality before hand as well. What was his sentence .... a 2yr suspended sentence. Now where is the justice in that, i see none. | |||
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"Sentences don't seem to be a deterrent because criminals don't believe they're going to get caught. ." But thats half the problem, they are getting off to many times and think, ack sure another i might as well take the easy option go mug an old lady, steal what i want etc etc i will only get slap on the wrist. They dont care if they are caught. Killing and murder is a more serious crime and not sure if harsher sentences would work in the same way, as they think as you said they can get away with it and not get caught. If petty crime (and dont mean disrespect to anyone using this term) where given harsher sentences on 1st offence, i think it would be a deterent and would there fore free up the jails for the more serious crime. Hope this makes sence as i know what im tryin to say, just not sure its coming across. x | |||
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"When you say "they are getting off to many times and think, " - do you mean they're being caught but not convicted or not being caught in the first place? It's two different problems and they shouldn't be conflated." mean getting caught and let off so think they can get away with it again and again | |||
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" A few years ago I had the awful experience of having to go to court for sexual assault charges against a minor, the person was denying the charges and was gonna make the victims give statements, that was until his previous was read out in court. He had prior charges for the same offence and had also been charged with beastiality before hand as well. What was his sentence .... a 2yr suspended sentence. Now where is the justice in that, i see none. " Am I reading this right....are you saying that during the trial, and before he was found guilty, details of previous convictions were read out in an open court? | |||
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"When you say "they are getting off to many times and think, " - do you mean they're being caught but not convicted or not being caught in the first place? It's two different problems and they shouldn't be conflated. mean getting caught and let off so think they can get away with it again and again " That doesn't make it much clearer. Where do you think the problem lies? Are you saying juries are ignoring the evidence and acquitting or are you saying that, even on conviction, Sheriffs and Judges aren't handing down sentences of the severity you'd like. I find it hard to comment on the appropriateness of a sentence without having sat through the entire case and read all the background reports. | |||
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" A few years ago I had the awful experience of having to go to court for sexual assault charges against a minor, the person was denying the charges and was gonna make the victims give statements, that was until his previous was read out in court. He had prior charges for the same offence and had also been charged with beastiality before hand as well. What was his sentence .... a 2yr suspended sentence. Now where is the justice in that, i see none. Am I reading this right....are you saying that during the trial, and before he was found guilty, details of previous convictions were read out in an open court?" it was in a closed court these were disussed, jury and members of public where sent out. | |||
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"When you say "they are getting off to many times and think, " - do you mean they're being caught but not convicted or not being caught in the first place? It's two different problems and they shouldn't be conflated. mean getting caught and let off so think they can get away with it again and again That doesn't make it much clearer. Where do you think the problem lies? Are you saying juries are ignoring the evidence and acquitting or are you saying that, even on conviction, Sheriffs and Judges aren't handing down sentences of the severity you'd like. I find it hard to comment on the appropriateness of a sentence without having sat through the entire case and read all the background reports." most cases dont even get to court in the 1st place | |||
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"Most cases don't get to court in the first place for good reason.....that being that evidence presented by the CPS is not sufficient to likely secure a conviction." I dunno about England but in Scotland the Crown Office/ Procurator Fiscal Service can only lead the evidence they're given by the cops. | |||
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"Knee jerk reactions on the basis of individual cases of murder.....what difference the murder of Milly Dowler to that of a 15 year old Somalian refugee stabbed to death in a Peckham street last year? The answer is NONE....except the photos of this sweet girl in all the papers and all the TV news programmes gets peoples blood boiling when they think of her being abducted and murdered.....for a few weeks at least then she will be forgotten by the masses. Murder is murder, the system brought her killer to justice, in accordance with English Law." Well said. For evidence of how skillfully the media manipulates the masses look no further than this forum where everything discussed is either an item of 'news' on the goggle-box, or in a newspaper. And when something is no longer thus, it will cease to be discussed,or remembered. As an aside, I heard someone recently describe Levi Bellefield as a 'sick horrible fat cunt'. Personally I feel that someone who uses a word to describe the female genitalia as an insult is precisely the kind of man who would sexually abuse a girl or woman and keep my daughter away from him. | |||
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