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"Depends...
Ahhh ever the philosopher Mr DJ"...in short. | |||
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"Depends...
Ahhh ever the philosopher Mr DJ
...in short.
"Plato has nothing on you | |||
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"Depends...
Ahhh ever the philosopher Mr DJ
...in short.
Plato has nothing on you "I think there should be a 'right to die' but the legal and social safeguards necessary to police that are beyond my scope. (Plato was a miserable git. Gimme Socrates) | |||
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"Depends...
Ahhh ever the philosopher Mr DJ
...in short.
Plato has nothing on you
I think there should be a 'right to die' but the legal and social safeguards necessary to police that are beyond my scope.
(Plato was a miserable git. Gimme Socrates)"Yes but here in the UK how can we safeguard and police such policies | |||
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"there have to be very good safeguarding procedures. however, I have worked with so many clients where I think i would have comitted suicide a long time ago if I was in their position. I do think that you have the right to decide if your quality of life is not worth living for any longer. ps being mentally unwell does not mean you automatically lack capacity. check mental capacity act. " I'm actually a CPN  | |||
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"Depends...
Ahhh ever the philosopher Mr DJ
...in short.
Plato has nothing on you
I think there should be a 'right to die' but the legal and social safeguards necessary to police that are beyond my scope.
(Plato was a miserable git. Gimme Socrates)
Yes but here in the UK how can we safeguard and police such policies"Is the question | |||
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"there have to be very good safeguarding procedures. however, I have worked with so many clients where I think i would have comitted suicide a long time ago if I was in their position. I do think that you have the right to decide if your quality of life is not worth living for any longer. ps being mentally unwell does not mean you automatically lack capacity. check mental capacity act. I'm actually a CPN "lol, have been care co in the past and now amhp | |||
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"I think it's a terribly sticky subject. I understand how desperate people can be to end their lives but I think said cases should go through court. But should people who help their loved ones die, genuinely believing they're helping, be prosecuted for it? I'm not sure." I agree but unfortunately how can we distinguish between a person whom is or has a degenerative condition. How can we police it, who would decide, would it be up to the DR? Very slippery slope in my eyes and open to a court case | |||
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"Depends...
Ahhh ever the philosopher Mr DJ
...in short.
Plato has nothing on you
I think there should be a 'right to die' but the legal and social safeguards necessary to police that are beyond my scope.
(Plato was a miserable git. Gimme Socrates)
Yes but here in the UK how can we safeguard and police such policies
Is the question "For instance, how can such a law distinguish between someone who wants to die because living is physically unbearable vs someone who may be in severe pain or with a new diagnosis and who feels suicidal? | |||
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"there have to be very good safeguarding procedures. however, I have worked with so many clients where I think i would have comitted suicide a long time ago if I was in their position. I do think that you have the right to decide if your quality of life is not worth living for any longer. ps being mentally unwell does not mean you automatically lack capacity. check mental capacity act. I'm actually a CPN
lol, have been care co in the past and now amhp "Community psychiatric nurse, CPN  | |||
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"I think it's a terribly sticky subject. I understand how desperate people can be to end their lives but I think said cases should go through court. But should people who help their loved ones die, genuinely believing they're helping, be prosecuted for it? I'm not sure. I agree but unfortunately how can we distinguish between a person whom is or has a degenerative condition. How can we police it, who would decide, would it be up to the DR? Very slippery slope in my eyes and open to a court case" lots of cases have gone in front of the CoP already I think, especially if an advanced decision has been made and it comes under best interest decision | |||
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"Depends...
Ahhh ever the philosopher Mr DJ
...in short.
Plato has nothing on you
I think there should be a 'right to die' but the legal and social safeguards necessary to police that are beyond my scope.
(Plato was a miserable git. Gimme Socrates)
Yes but here in the UK how can we safeguard and police such policies
Is the question
For instance, how can such a law distinguish between someone who wants to die because living is physically unbearable vs someone who may be in severe pain or with a new diagnosis and who feels suicidal?"Yes but who's to say with treatment that said person won't go on into society and with correct treatment feel different? | |||
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"We call ourselves a civilised society. Yet we allow people to struggle on with irreversible conditions in awful pain. I'm totally in favour, although there would need to be strict procedures to follow. E.g supporting medical evidence and even a psychological assessment to determine if someone is in sound frame of mind to make such a decision. I also think a buffer period between the initial signing of the contract shall we call it. Say two weeks which will give someone time to evaluate the decision and come to terms with what is to happen. Putting myself in that situation id much rather pass away peacefully, comfortable and with family around me. And that concludes one of the only sensible forums posts I've ever made "Everyone always thinks of themselves in these cases, and rightly - who would want to live a life that you wouldn't let a loved pet suffer? But you also have to consider the dangers that an open door on euthanasia poses in terms of bumping off unwanted people. Sad, sick but very valid. | |||
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"Depends...
Ahhh ever the philosopher Mr DJ
...in short.
Plato has nothing on you
I think there should be a 'right to die' but the legal and social safeguards necessary to police that are beyond my scope.
(Plato was a miserable git. Gimme Socrates)
Yes but here in the UK how can we safeguard and police such policies
Is the question
For instance, how can such a law distinguish between someone who wants to die because living is physically unbearable vs someone who may be in severe pain or with a new diagnosis and who feels suicidal?
Yes but who's to say with treatment that said person won't go on into society and with correct treatment feel different? "But where do you draw the line for someone in crisis who wants to die? If our law says that person has a right to die, how can we prevent it? | |||
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"You can argue that we all have the right to choose, very tough to say we don't but impossible to police mistakes in dignitas. Would the condition have actually worsened? Can't tell after the fact. Would they have changed their mind? Can't tell after the fact. Choice is good but euthanasia has too many potential problems for me to ever see it working properly" Totally agree, | |||
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"We call ourselves a civilised society. Yet we allow people to struggle on with irreversible conditions in awful pain. I'm totally in favour, although there would need to be strict procedures to follow. E.g supporting medical evidence and even a psychological assessment to determine if someone is in sound frame of mind to make such a decision. I also think a buffer period between the initial signing of the contract shall we call it. Say two weeks which will give someone time to evaluate the decision and come to terms with what is to happen. Putting myself in that situation id much rather pass away peacefully, comfortable and with family around me. And that concludes one of the only sensible forums posts I've ever made
Everyone always thinks of themselves in these cases, and rightly - who would want to live a life that you wouldn't let a loved pet suffer?
But you also have to consider the dangers that an open door on euthanasia poses in terms of bumping off unwanted people.
Sad, sick but very valid.
"Bang on correct. It's a tough one, but regardless I'm in favour. But like I said...the rules need to be strict with no sway....I'm not qualified to say what those rules should be. I think if parts of the world can be ok with execution where the person probably really doesn't want to die. Vs euthanasia, where they do want to. Then a scheme could be worked out that would work. | |||
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"Depends...
Ahhh ever the philosopher Mr DJ
...in short.
Plato has nothing on you
I think there should be a 'right to die' but the legal and social safeguards necessary to police that are beyond my scope.
(Plato was a miserable git. Gimme Socrates)
Yes but here in the UK how can we safeguard and police such policies
Is the question
For instance, how can such a law distinguish between someone who wants to die because living is physically unbearable vs someone who may be in severe pain or with a new diagnosis and who feels suicidal?
Yes but who's to say with treatment that said person won't go on into society and with correct treatment feel different?
But where do you draw the line for someone in crisis who wants to die?
If our law says that person has a right to die, how can we prevent it?"We can't. They would commit suicide usually failed, I think from my perspective I'm talking people with mental health issues which is a different ball game to people with brain injury or degenerative conditions. But with the advance of medicine and science on the whole it's a huge subject to decide on whom has the right to assist a suicide | |||
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"Safeguards would always be necessary but every law written has been broken, there may be some who would wish to end their own lives but opening up a way for potential killings to be deemed legal is too risky, one mistake in euthanasia would be one too many. You can have a DNR in place in hospitals, not perfect but it is a partial solition" Exactly | |||
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"Depends...
Ahhh ever the philosopher Mr DJ
...in short.
Plato has nothing on you
I think there should be a 'right to die' but the legal and social safeguards necessary to police that are beyond my scope.
(Plato was a miserable git. Gimme Socrates)
Yes but here in the UK how can we safeguard and police such policies
Is the question
For instance, how can such a law distinguish between someone who wants to die because living is physically unbearable vs someone who may be in severe pain or with a new diagnosis and who feels suicidal?
Yes but who's to say with treatment that said person won't go on into society and with correct treatment feel different?
But where do you draw the line for someone in crisis who wants to die?
If our law says that person has a right to die, how can we prevent it?
We can't. They would commit suicide usually failed, I think from my perspective I'm talking people with mental health issues which is a different ball game to people with brain injury or degenerative conditions. But with the advance of medicine and science on the whole it's a huge subject to decide on whom has the right to assist a suicide "Bingo. So it's a minefield for practitioners and an often subjective judgement about someone else's suffering... judged on a case by-case basis? The law is possibly too blunt an instrument to draw such lines. It would need to afford protection for people who assist, protection against 'unnecessary' cases... I ain't no lawyer | |||
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"Depends...
Ahhh ever the philosopher Mr DJ
...in short.
Plato has nothing on you
I think there should be a 'right to die' but the legal and social safeguards necessary to police that are beyond my scope.
(Plato was a miserable git. Gimme Socrates)
Yes but here in the UK how can we safeguard and police such policies
Is the question
For instance, how can such a law distinguish between someone who wants to die because living is physically unbearable vs someone who may be in severe pain or with a new diagnosis and who feels suicidal?
Yes but who's to say with treatment that said person won't go on into society and with correct treatment feel different?
But where do you draw the line for someone in crisis who wants to die?
If our law says that person has a right to die, how can we prevent it?
We can't. They would commit suicide usually failed, I think from my perspective I'm talking people with mental health issues which is a different ball game to people with brain injury or degenerative conditions. But with the advance of medicine and science on the whole it's a huge subject to decide on whom has the right to assist a suicide
Bingo.
So it's a minefield for practitioners and an often subjective judgement about someone else's suffering... judged on a case by-case basis?
The law is possibly too blunt an instrument to draw such lines.
It would need to afford protection for people who assist, protection against 'unnecessary' cases...
I ain't no lawyer"But on the whole it comes down to the law and ethics, ethical relativisim from one society group to another is very diverse and on the whole it opens the door to law suits whether morally wrong or not | |||
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"Depends...
Ahhh ever the philosopher Mr DJ
...in short.
Plato has nothing on you
I think there should be a 'right to die' but the legal and social safeguards necessary to police that are beyond my scope.
(Plato was a miserable git. Gimme Socrates)
Yes but here in the UK how can we safeguard and police such policies
Is the question
For instance, how can such a law distinguish between someone who wants to die because living is physically unbearable vs someone who may be in severe pain or with a new diagnosis and who feels suicidal?
Yes but who's to say with treatment that said person won't go on into society and with correct treatment feel different?
But where do you draw the line for someone in crisis who wants to die?
If our law says that person has a right to die, how can we prevent it?
We can't. They would commit suicide usually failed, I think from my perspective I'm talking people with mental health issues which is a different ball game to people with brain injury or degenerative conditions. But with the advance of medicine and science on the whole it's a huge subject to decide on whom has the right to assist a suicide
Bingo.
So it's a minefield for practitioners and an often subjective judgement about someone else's suffering... judged on a case by-case basis?
The law is possibly too blunt an instrument to draw such lines.
It would need to afford protection for people who assist, protection against 'unnecessary' cases...
I ain't no lawyer
But on the whole it comes down to the law and ethics, ethical relativisim from one society group to another is very diverse and on the whole it opens the door to law suits whether morally wrong or not "*CODrShipmanFFS* Completely | |||
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"Depends...
Ahhh ever the philosopher Mr DJ
...in short.
Plato has nothing on you
I think there should be a 'right to die' but the legal and social safeguards necessary to police that are beyond my scope.
(Plato was a miserable git. Gimme Socrates)
Yes but here in the UK how can we safeguard and police such policies
Is the question
For instance, how can such a law distinguish between someone who wants to die because living is physically unbearable vs someone who may be in severe pain or with a new diagnosis and who feels suicidal?
Yes but who's to say with treatment that said person won't go on into society and with correct treatment feel different?
But where do you draw the line for someone in crisis who wants to die?
If our law says that person has a right to die, how can we prevent it?
We can't. They would commit suicide usually failed, I think from my perspective I'm talking people with mental health issues which is a different ball game to people with brain injury or degenerative conditions. But with the advance of medicine and science on the whole it's a huge subject to decide on whom has the right to assist a suicide
Bingo.
So it's a minefield for practitioners and an often subjective judgement about someone else's suffering... judged on a case by-case basis?
The law is possibly too blunt an instrument to draw such lines.
It would need to afford protection for people who assist, protection against 'unnecessary' cases...
I ain't no lawyer
But on the whole it comes down to the law and ethics, ethical relativisim from one society group to another is very diverse and on the whole it opens the door to law suits whether morally wrong or not
*CODrShipmanFFS*
Completely
"Oh my days I'm not even going there with that case study  | |||
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"Not sure dr Shipman is a good example and helps either argument, there will always be those who are plain evil. The problem for me is I fill in a form today that says I wish to die if I reach a certain stage of mental deterioration, when I reach that point pull the plug but st that point I change my mind, no longer considered to have capacity so I am ignored and plug gets pulled anyway!" Capacity is key... but let's take it the other way and use the example of someone who has an accident and ends us tetraplegic. Really can't deal with it an wants to die. * Is that permitted? * Might their mental state change? * How is it carried out? | |||
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"Tricky, innit?" Just a little. After the week I've had. One mum of 4 with postpartum and her partner in denial plus unbelievable work load yes it's tricky!! Gfff | |||
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"The people who choose to go to the Dignitas clinic are either terminally ill or have a severely life limiting illness such as motor neurone disease or multiple sclerosis. Generally they are in full control of their faculties, its just their body that doesn't work. It's not a decision that is taken lightly and takes quite a lot of soul searching to come to. I'm a full time carer for my mum who has primary progressive MS. There is no cure and no effective treatment to ease the symptoms at all. For the last 10 years or so I have watched he condition deteriorate week on week. It will most likely come to a point where she is unable to even feed herself should she live long enough. Assisted dying is something we have discussed many times (usually when there has been something on TV about it) and she is of the opinion that should she become trapped in a knackered body unable to do anything for herself anymore and unable to have a good quality of life then she would consider a trip to dignitas. If it did come to that then I would assist her. In my mind it is my duty to be there for her no matter what the desicion or the consequences for me." I totally empathize with you and agree. Yet you can't have one rule for one and one for another. It's a very grey area and hence why I mentioned mental health. I do agree with conditions such as your mother's yet it opens flood gates to abuse as there has to be consent | |||
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"It would be almost impossible to police any law around euthanasia, whatever the circumstances, hard to see in an increasingly litigious society how you could ever have enough safeguards in place" Hence why it's not legal here or any other country aside from Switzerland, USA!! Maybe but I'm not aware of non euro legalization, (tongue in cheek) completely different debate | |||
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"No way do I want to end up in a home... But I don't want to go before 100 neither. "Mr Oliver your missing the point | |||
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"No way do I want to end up in a home... But I don't want to go before 100 neither.
Mr Oliver your missing the point "Am I? I'm expressing my personal opinion on how I'd like to go. I'm saying I'd like to be given the choice, but wouldn't definitely use it | |||
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"To see people in a vegetative state with 0 quality of life should be allowed especially when there is no chance of recovering. If an animal was in the same state you would be prosecuted with cruelty. However I do believe people should have the choice to sign a disclaimer following interviews otherwise its a grey area and open to abuse " So how should we police this? Say for instance I was grade 3 and terminally ill and wanted to end my life, had support from my family? Or,, I was exactly the same scenario but had no family and my long lost son/daughter (relative) came on the scene and suddenly I want end of life or say I was of mental health and wanted to give up my family supports me, I have 1 million in the bank and I want to die and my mum dad said person supports me?? | |||
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"No way do I want to end up in a home... But I don't want to go before 100 neither.
Mr Oliver your missing the point
Am I? I'm expressing my personal opinion on how I'd like to go. I'm saying I'd like to be given the choice, but wouldn't definitely use it "The point is, what if you haven't got the choice ,, assisted suicide is what this thread is about | |||
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"No way do I want to end up in a home... But I don't want to go before 100 neither.
Mr Oliver your missing the point
Am I? I'm expressing my personal opinion on how I'd like to go. I'm saying I'd like to be given the choice, but wouldn't definitely use it
The point is, what if you haven't got the choice ,, assisted suicide is what this thread is about "Well if you haven't got the choice then you've just got plain old suicide. Keep up. | |||
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"To see people in a vegetative state with 0 quality of life should be allowed especially when there is no chance of recovering. If an animal was in the same state you would be prosecuted with cruelty. However I do believe people should have the choice to sign a disclaimer following interviews otherwise its a grey area and open to abuse So how should we police this? Say for instance I was grade 3 and terminally ill and wanted to end my life, had support from my family? Or,, I was exactly the same scenario but had no family and my long lost son/daughter (relative) came on the scene and suddenly I want end of life or say I was of mental health and wanted to give up my family supports me, I have 1 million in the bank and I want to die and my mum dad said person supports me?? " * if my mental health was questionable | |||
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"No way do I want to end up in a home... But I don't want to go before 100 neither.
Mr Oliver your missing the point
Am I? I'm expressing my personal opinion on how I'd like to go. I'm saying I'd like to be given the choice, but wouldn't definitely use it
The point is, what if you haven't got the choice ,, assisted suicide is what this thread is about
Well if you haven't got the choice then you've just got plain old suicide. Keep up. "Really! If you haven't got fine motor skills how would YOU commit suicide?? | |||
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"I totally support the right to die. People should not have to go abroad to die. I think forcing someone to go on 'long after the thrill of living is gone' is selfish. " | |||
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"To die with dignity or is it morally wrong? It was one of my subjects on my degree I had to debate about. I got given to defend the FOR but me personally I think it's wrong after lots of research it leads so many open doors to abuse and ultimately if a person was mentally ill and of wrong mind I personally think dignitary and there protocol are pretty sketchy,, views opinions? Please let's debate and not argue and get personal x" I think it's wrong that we have more control over an animals suffering than we do our own. | |||
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"To die with dignity or is it morally wrong? It was one of my subjects on my degree I had to debate about. I got given to defend the FOR but me personally I think it's wrong after lots of research it leads so many open doors to abuse and ultimately if a person was mentally ill and of wrong mind I personally think dignitary and there protocol are pretty sketchy,, views opinions? Please let's debate and not argue and get personal x" What part of Dignitas' protocols are sketchy? | |||
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"To die with dignity or is it morally wrong? It was one of my subjects on my degree I had to debate about. I got given to defend the FOR but me personally I think it's wrong after lots of research it leads so many open doors to abuse and ultimately if a person was mentally ill and of wrong mind I personally think dignitary and there protocol are pretty sketchy,, views opinions? Please let's debate and not argue and get personal x" But Penny; We already have Euthanasia, its called "NILL BY MOUTH" . stage 4 cancers come to the point where they are put on a morphine pump and "Nil by Mouth" basically starving to death whilst the morphine attacks organs - shutting them down This does take around 4 days or more, of horrendous pain and I just recently watched a family member die this way, its horrific & cruel. . I will always support the fight for Euthanasia | |||
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" As human beings we have options, e.g. alcohol and bath tubs/plastic bags, as well as more violent or painful options. The hard bit is when someone is unable to do it themselves. " But suicide is nor an easy option. There is a stigma to it and even your examples are actually pretty unpleasant (there is research into models of death and how likely they are to work,the time and 'agony' factor, explosives are the best choice FYI) and there is little dignity in it unless you involve others. And if you involve others they will be arrested and potentially charged for assisting and/or failing to prevent it. No one should die alone puking their guts up with alcohol poisoning or fighting for breath with a bag over their head but many choose to do so rather than continue to battle a life limiting condition. And that's not right | |||
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"Just all my opinion. I noticed the pro euthanasia groups in the news often use words such 'Dignity', 'Compassion' etc.. to try and put some guilt feeling behind it. Doesn't wash with me, we came into the word with nothing and we leave with nothing. We'll all die one day, some peacefully some in pain, I don't believe in playing God. Secondly, we suffer from the trickle effect. As soon as you allow euthanasia, for say vegetative state people, terminally ill people will campaign, then those with mental illenesses, then someone who can't go on because their cat ran over. You are asking physicians to, in effect, murder you. An example of the trickle effect (please don't hurl comments, it's just an example) are gays. In the 70's, it was removed from the mental health register, it's morphed over the years to marriage and now it's back in the news for churches to accept gay ministers. If there was a referendum, I would vote 'No' and I never debate hypotheticals, what if your son was ill, bla bla. Fingers crossed, I'll go out with a heart attack in my sleep, lol." I think your going off the track quite a bit there even though I understand with what you are trying to say. But I was talking about the right to choose to die by a person who is of sound state of mind but suffering from a terminal and probably very painful illness. This I agree with . The person should be allowed to end their suffering in that situation. | |||
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"Just all my opinion. I noticed the pro euthanasia groups in the news often use words such 'Dignity', 'Compassion' etc.. to try and put some guilt feeling behind it. Doesn't wash with me, we came into the word with nothing and we leave with nothing. We'll all die one day, some peacefully some in pain, I don't believe in playing God. Secondly, we suffer from the trickle effect. As soon as you allow euthanasia, for say vegetative state people, terminally ill people will campaign, then those with mental illenesses, then someone who can't go on because their cat ran over. You are asking physicians to, in effect, murder you. An example of the trickle effect (please don't hurl comments, it's just an example) are gays. In the 70's, it was removed from the mental health register, it's morphed over the years to marriage and now it's back in the news for churches to accept gay ministers. If there was a referendum, I would vote 'No' and I never debate hypotheticals, what if your son was ill, bla bla. Fingers crossed, I'll go out with a heart attack in my sleep, lol." Do you actually have any idea of the criteria to be admitted to Dignitas? | |||
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"Just all my opinion. I think your going off the track quite a bit there even though I understand with what you are trying to say. But I was talking about the right to choose to die by a person who is of sound state of mind but suffering from a terminal and probably very painful illness. This I agree with . The person should be allowed to end their suffering in that situation." I believe it all links in and it covers your question from various angles. | |||
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" Do you actually have any idea of the criteria to be admitted to Dignitas? " Do you mean the current criteria, no. | |||
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" As human beings we have options, e.g. alcohol and bath tubs/plastic bags, as well as more violent or painful options. The hard bit is when someone is unable to do it themselves. But suicide is nor an easy option. There is a stigma to it and even your examples are actually pretty unpleasant " You raise a good point there, if there is a stigma to suicide, does that change for assisted suicide? Also I am well aware that drowning or suffocation are not pain free or instant, but it is fairly quick and in relation to the other UK option of starving to death while refusing medical treatment, pretty easy exit really. Yes you must do it alone, putting someone else's mental health and potentially liberty in jeapardy while escaping all punishment yourself is not fair. I have said myself I would rather die than live with dementia, IF I mean that I must make my exit myself early enough to be able to carry it through. Timing is the key and also the problem. | |||
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" Do you actually have any idea of the criteria to be admitted to Dignitas? Do you mean the current criteria, no." If you did, you'd realise how almost every point you make is a moot one. I fully understand and totally accept that euphanasia is a massively emotive subject,and I'd never tell anyone they were wrong fir being opposed to it (there is no right and wrong on this sibject) but your fears about the trickle down effect simply don't stand up to scrutiny | |||
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"yes they should be allowed to end their life as they see fit and it should be allowed in the uk. We do it for dogs and cats but not people? just weird" No we do it TO dogs and cats, usually because it is cheaper than treating the illness. should we really apply that model to Aunt Gladis? | |||
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"The people who choose to go to the Dignitas clinic are either terminally ill or have a severely life limiting illness such as motor neurone disease or multiple sclerosis. Generally they are in full control of their faculties, its just their body that doesn't work. It's not a decision that is taken lightly and takes quite a lot of soul searching to come to. I'm a full time carer for my mum who has primary progressive MS. There is no cure and no effective treatment to ease the symptoms at all. For the last 10 years or so I have watched he condition deteriorate week on week. It will most likely come to a point where she is unable to even feed herself should she live long enough. Assisted dying is something we have discussed many times (usually when there has been something on TV about it) and she is of the opinion that should she become trapped in a knackered body unable to do anything for herself anymore and unable to have a good quality of life then she would consider a trip to dignitas. If it did come to that then I would assist her. In my mind it is my duty to be there for her no matter what the desicion or the consequences for me." actually not all of them are. there were 2 recent cases that have made me very uncomfortable where dignitas is concerned. A young Belgian woman with severe depression was enabled to end her life after a court case and a Dutch man with alcohol dependence who appears to have bowed to pressure from his brother to end his life. there have also been other cases there where severe mental illness was considered a good enough reason to be enabled to die. There are different attitudes in different countries and dignitas is a business after all. | |||
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"yes they should be allowed to end their life as they see fit and it should be allowed in the uk. We do it for dogs and cats but not people? just weird No we do it TO dogs and cats, usually because it is cheaper than treating the illness. should we really apply that model to Aunt Gladis? " If that's what Aunt wants then yes why not, her right to choose not yrs | |||
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" If you did, you'd realise how almost every point you make is a moot one. I fully understand and totally accept that euphanasia is a massively emotive subject,and I'd never tell anyone they were wrong fir being opposed to it (there is no right and wrong on this sibject) but your fears about the trickle down effect simply don't stand up to scrutiny " But if you realise that criterias change, then you'll understand what I wrote. Off Wikipedia, "who suffer from terminal illness and/or severe physical and/or mental illnesses, supported by (of the organization independent) qualified Swiss doctors." Is that the current criteria that you refer to? So if you made it law in the UK using that criteria, I can guarantee over the years that we'll just have endless groups coming forward wanting to be included. That's all I'm saying. It's great you have an opinion and I have mine and that's where it should be left. | |||
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"yes they should be allowed to end their life as they see fit and it should be allowed in the uk. We do it for dogs and cats but not people? just weird No we do it TO dogs and cats, usually because it is cheaper than treating the illness. should we really apply that model to Aunt Gladis? If that's what Aunt wants then yes why not, her right to choose not yrs" But it's not a choice for the dog, if the doctor says treatment for Aunt Gladis is going to be £5000 and she will still be old and suffer joint pain etc. Do you say, no, give her the injection instead? What I am saying is there is no comparison to animals, and Aunt Gladis has no right to put that decision on you or the doctor. Suicide is a big responsibility if you can't do it yourself, perhaps you don't deserve to have it. | |||
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"Not a life id want and fully support people that wish to be out of suffering. " But would you administer the drug? | |||
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"Not a life id want and fully support people that wish to be out of suffering. But would you administer the drug?" Having watched my Mum pass away at home from cancer and the last couple of weeks when you're just waiting. It has gone to her brain so she could no longer communicate. Then yes I would. | |||
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"Euthanasia will be common place in the future in my opinion. As the worlds population grows out of control and people living longer etc. There wont be enough resources to feed and water and support the continued growth of mankind. As sure as eggs are eggs there will come a time when this planet cannot sustain the human population. What then ??" Assuming mankind hasn't exterminated itself by then!! | |||
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"Euthanasia will be common place in the future in my opinion. As the worlds population grows out of control and people living longer etc. There wont be enough resources to feed and water and support the continued growth of mankind. As sure as eggs are eggs there will come a time when this planet cannot sustain the human population. What then ?? Assuming mankind hasn't exterminated itself by then!!" Yes by war or unwittingly unleashing a plague from genetic engineering upon mankind with no cure. Cheery stuff for a Sunday Morning isnt it  | |||
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"To die with dignity or is it morally wrong? It was one of my subjects on my degree I had to debate about. I got given to defend the FOR but me personally I think it's wrong after lots of research it leads so many open doors to abuse and ultimately if a person was mentally ill and of wrong mind I personally think dignitary and there protocol are pretty sketchy,, views opinions? Please let's debate and not argue and get personal x" You think it's wrong ? How can making decisions about your own life and death be 'wrong'. Do you mean morally wrong ? Legally wrong ? What does 'wrong' mean ? I think you may be confusing the issue with murder. | |||
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"Euthanasia will be common place in the future in my opinion. As the worlds population grows out of control and people living longer etc. There wont be enough resources to feed and water and support the continued growth of mankind. As sure as eggs are eggs there will come a time when this planet cannot sustain the human population. What then ??" The blessed distopian utopia but Logan still ran.
You are abdicating a lot of responsibility there, and also moving the debate from easy death by individual choice to mass population cull for the benefit of the living class.
The problem is deep seated, instinct is to fight for survival at all costs, even if that survival is painful or pointless. There is the issue of hope, hope will whisper there may be a cure next week, the greed of love, to spend one more day with xxx, and the fear of death and what may or may not happen after.
Then there are those gits who chew their own leg off and crawl 10,000 miles over jagged rocks losing both arms and their other leg in the process, who then get married and have a wonderful family life. and make us all feel bad about wanting out because we got old and pissed our pants without knowing it...
It's an impossible question OP not because it shouldn't exist, but because it needs to be a decision of the week, no matter what the cause of the vulnerability, and the guilt of the survivors.
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"Not a life id want and fully support people that wish to be out of suffering. But would you administer the drug? Having watched my Mum pass away at home from cancer and the last couple of weeks when you're just waiting. It has gone to her brain so she could no longer communicate. Then yes I would. " When? it's a big question, at what point did hope die? do you wait until the last moment? or do it when diagnosis is confirmed? | |||
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" Yes by war or unwittingly unleashing a plague from genetic engineering upon mankind with no cure. Cheery stuff for a Sunday Morning isnt it "Yes, we're going to go and have a cheerful day today as the opinion bangers are in full swing. Suffice to say, we have laws to control opinions and a democracy to go with the majority. Some have the energy to campaign, protest, march and debate for years. We want to spend our energy on our backs with like minded people and fuck each other senseless, lol. | |||
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" Yes by war or unwittingly unleashing a plague from genetic engineering upon mankind with no cure. Cheery stuff for a Sunday Morning isnt it
Yes, we're going to go and have a cheerful day today as the opinion bangers are in full swing.
Suffice to say, we have laws to control opinions and a democracy to go with the majority.
Some have the energy to campaign, protest, march and debate for years. We want to spend our energy on our backs with like minded people and fuck each other senseless, lol. "Lol God bless you my children | |||
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"Not a life id want and fully support people that wish to be out of suffering. But would you administer the drug? Having watched my Mum pass away at home from cancer and the last couple of weeks when you're just waiting. It has gone to her brain so she could no longer communicate. Then yes I would. When? it's a big question, at what point did hope die? do you wait until the last moment? or do it when diagnosis is confirmed? " You don't decide, the sufferer does. When they decide they can't/don't want to continue anymore then that's when; when there's no further treatment to ease the suffering and the only thing doctors and nurses can do is leave the person to suffer and be in pain, that's when the sufferer should have the right to decide. | |||
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"To die with dignity or is it morally wrong? It was one of my subjects on my degree I had to debate about. I got given to defend the FOR but me personally I think it's wrong after lots of research it leads so many open doors to abuse and ultimately if a person was mentally ill and of wrong mind I personally think dignitary and there protocol are pretty sketchy,, views opinions? Please let's debate and not argue and get personal x" I think the same as you. I worked for a hospice for a while. I asked what their thoughts were about euthanasia, and they had a great response; they feel their job is to make people's lives worth living, so they don't want to die. And I think that's the point thats missed. | |||
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"I honestly don't know what I think, but I'm absolutely certain that if ever I do know, it will be a conclusion based on individually relevant circumstance .... " | |||
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"Some have the energy to campaign, protest, march and debate for years. We want to spend our energy on our backs with like minded people and fuck each other senseless, lol. " What! fornication on a Sunday! you should be kneeling on a cold stone floor in a church, no! not doing anal while tied to the altar... (that is for Saturdays)  | |||
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"Not a life id want and fully support people that wish to be out of suffering. But would you administer the drug? Having watched my Mum pass away at home from cancer and the last couple of weeks when you're just waiting. It has gone to her brain so she could no longer communicate. Then yes I would. When? it's a big question, at what point did hope die? do you wait until the last moment? or do it when diagnosis is confirmed? You don't decide, the sufferer does. When they decide they can't/don't want to continue anymore then that's when; when there's no further treatment to ease the suffering and the only thing doctors and nurses can do is leave the person to suffer and be in pain, that's when the sufferer should have the right to decide. " I totally agree with you, and when my time comes I want to choose how. but that is personal, and often gets fucked up by the desire to have one more hour to say goodbye. I don't know what my ènd will be, but my current torment is to watch someones decent into dementia, no longer caring about living or dying to the previously stated aspirations, as the mind is a cruel beast that takes away the desire to live and die hard and fast, and accepts the joy of a comfy chair and a bib to catch the dribbles. It's a cruel master that survival instinct. | |||
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"Not a life id want and fully support people that wish to be out of suffering. But would you administer the drug? Having watched my Mum pass away at home from cancer and the last couple of weeks when you're just waiting. It has gone to her brain so she could no longer communicate. Then yes I would. When? it's a big question, at what point did hope die? do you wait until the last moment? or do it when diagnosis is confirmed? You don't decide, the sufferer does. When they decide they can't/don't want to continue anymore then that's when; when there's no further treatment to ease the suffering and the only thing doctors and nurses can do is leave the person to suffer and be in pain, that's when the sufferer should have the right to decide. I totally agree with you, and when my time comes I want to choose how. but that is personal, and often gets fucked up by the desire to have one more hour to say goodbye. I don't know what my ènd will be, but my current torment is to watch someones decent into dementia, no longer caring about living or dying to the previously stated aspirations, as the mind is a cruel beast that takes away the desire to live and die hard and fast, and accepts the joy of a comfy chair and a bib to catch the dribbles. It's a cruel master that survival instinct. " The will to survive. Exists in every living thing. Strongest human emotion in the world nxt to love . | |||
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"Not a life id want and fully support people that wish to be out of suffering. But would you administer the drug? Having watched my Mum pass away at home from cancer and the last couple of weeks when you're just waiting. It has gone to her brain so she could no longer communicate. Then yes I would. When? it's a big question, at what point did hope die? do you wait until the last moment? or do it when diagnosis is confirmed? " Well it's up to the sufferer isn't it? I'd have respected her decision but then life is never straightforward. As it was in her brain , would they have said her capacity was compromised? I'm just glad she got her wish to die at home. Now I need to leave this thread as it's too morbid for a Sunday. | |||
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"To die with dignity or is it morally wrong? It was one of my subjects on my degree I had to debate about. I got given to defend the FOR but me personally I think it's wrong after lots of research it leads so many open doors to abuse and ultimately if a person was mentally ill and of wrong mind I personally think dignitary and there protocol are pretty sketchy,, views opinions? Please let's debate and not argue and get personal x I think the same as you. I worked for a hospice for a while. I asked what their thoughts were about euthanasia, and they had a great response; they feel their job is to make people's lives worth living, so they don't want to die. And I think that's the point thats missed. " You have to realise that there comes a point where no amount of caring and help can make any difference. If people want to end their lives, for whatever reason, they should be allowed to do so. We're continually dictated to about how we should live, sould we allow that to extend to how we should die also? I don't think so. | |||
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"To die with dignity or is it morally wrong? It was one of my subjects on my degree I had to debate about. I got given to defend the FOR but me personally I think it's wrong after lots of research it leads so many open doors to abuse and ultimately if a person was mentally ill and of wrong mind I personally think dignitary and there protocol are pretty sketchy,, views opinions? Please let's debate and not argue and get personal x I think the same as you. I worked for a hospice for a while. I asked what their thoughts were about euthanasia, and they had a great response; they feel their job is to make people's lives worth living, so they don't want to die. And I think that's the point thats missed. You have to realise that there comes a point where no amount of caring and help can make any difference. If people want to end their lives, for whatever reason, they should be allowed to do so. We're continually dictated to about how we should live, sould we allow that to extend to how we should die also? I don't think so. " | |||
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"Fancy a fuck "Yes, though not with you... Nothing personal, I am sure you are a very nice man... but you are a man, and I only FAF with a woman, cos I is picky init
I am also bowing out of this thread, it's too heavy a subject for any day, though a wothy topic, thank you for raising it OP. | |||
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"What is it about this society that makes life at any cost acceptable. Euthenasia should be made available on the NHS, better to die in bed by a simple injection surrounded by your loved ones who will have the chance to say goodbye and actually have closure than the disgusting public display of self loathing of throwing yourself off a motorway bridge or stepping out in front of a train, impacting the lives of innocent people."
Society is sick. And selfish.
Keep the relative alive for selfish reasons. Watch them suffer in pain and anguish.. because letting them go peacefully would be so 'wrong'. | |||
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"To die with dignity or is it morally wrong? It was one of my subjects on my degree I had to debate about. I got given to defend the FOR but me personally I think it's wrong after lots of research it leads so many open doors to abuse and ultimately if a person was mentally ill and of wrong mind I personally think dignitary and there protocol are pretty sketchy,, views opinions? Please let's debate and not argue and get personal x I think the same as you. I worked for a hospice for a while. I asked what their thoughts were about euthanasia, and they had a great response; they feel their job is to make people's lives worth living, so they don't want to die. And I think that's the point thats missed. You have to realise that there comes a point where no amount of caring and help can make any difference. If people want to end their lives, for whatever reason, they should be allowed to do so. We're continually dictated to about how we should live, sould we allow that to extend to how we should die also? I don't think so. " I don't have to realise anything. However, I seem to be more knowledgeable about palliative care than you. | |||
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"To die with dignity or is it morally wrong? It was one of my subjects on my degree I had to debate about. I got given to defend the FOR but me personally I think it's wrong after lots of research it leads so many open doors to abuse and ultimately if a person was mentally ill and of wrong mind I personally think dignitary and there protocol are pretty sketchy,, views opinions? Please let's debate and not argue and get personal x I think the same as you. I worked for a hospice for a while. I asked what their thoughts were about euthanasia, and they had a great response; they feel their job is to make people's lives worth living, so they don't want to die. And I think that's the point thats missed. You have to realise that there comes a point where no amount of caring and help can make any difference. If people want to end their lives, for whatever reason, they should be allowed to do so. We're continually dictated to about how we should live, sould we allow that to extend to how we should die also? I don't think so. I don't have to realise anything. However, I seem to be more knowledgeable about palliative care than you. " You might be surprised. | |||
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"To die with dignity or is it morally wrong? It was one of my subjects on my degree I had to debate about. I got given to defend the FOR but me personally I think it's wrong after lots of research it leads so many open doors to abuse and ultimately if a person was mentally ill and of wrong mind I personally think dignitary and there protocol are pretty sketchy,, views opinions? Please let's debate and not argue and get personal x" ill choose it one way or another, when i'm ready to go...my life, my death..its not about you, its about me.so everyone can do what they want, without implying they know whats best, for anyone else. | |||
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"For me, when all hope if gone and there is no point of return people should be allowed to die Once your at the end of life I see no point in allowing people to suffer" I agree | |||
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It is slowly getting better, but I now know the shape of things to come..
I have already decided that if it keeps progressing like this, I am out. I have already looked into Dignitas and will be ending my life there and when I choose. Don't get me wrong, I would rather be at home, in my own bed, with the people I love with me. But sadly, I won't have that unless the law changes  | |||
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"For me, when all hope if gone and there is no point of return people should be allowed to die Once your at the end of life I see no point in allowing people to suffer" You're so right sweetie | |||
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"I have MS, never really understood what a bastard of a disease it was until I was hit with a significant relapse 3 months ago. I lost the use of my body from chest to toes, couldn't walk or use my arms. It was so painful....really painful It is slowly getting better, but I now know the shape of things to come..
I have already decided that if it keeps progressing like this, I am out. I have already looked into Dignitas and will be ending my life there and when I choose. Don't get me wrong, I would rather be at home, in my own bed, with the people I love with me. But sadly, I won't have that unless the law changes "This is why we need the law to change, to show more compassion. People should have the right to choose. My heart goes out to you. | |||
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"This is why we need the law to change, to show more compassion. People should have the right to choose. My heart goes out to you." Why change the law? there are already options for those that choose to take them. It needs to be a little difficult, so that it is not over used. | |||
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"For me, when all hope if gone and there is no point of return people should be allowed to die Once your at the end of life I see no point in allowing people to suffer You're so right sweetie " What I dot get is people have the right to say DNR and have it on their records, they don't have to be suffering to enable this. | |||
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"This is why we need the law to change, to show more compassion. People should have the right to choose. My heart goes out to you. Why change the law? there are already options for those that choose to take them. It needs to be a little difficult, so that it is not over used. " There are options if you can afford them... But the point may also be about terminally ill people who physically cannot carry out the act themselves. The family member or practitioner who does it can be prosecuted. | |||
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"This is why we need the law to change, to show more compassion. People should have the right to choose. My heart goes out to you. Why change the law? there are already options for those that choose to take them. It needs to be a little difficult, so that it is not over used. There are options if you can afford them... But the point may also be about terminally ill people who physically cannot carry out the act themselves. The family member or practitioner who does it can be prosecuted. " Not many who have lived a life cant afford a one way ticket, it's the only all in option, if all else fails then WONGA can pay for it. I feel strongly that if you have to rely on others to do it to you, then you left it too late, put dnr on your records and wait a while longer. It is wrong to expect someone else to do it for you. | |||
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"To die with dignity or is it morally wrong? It was one of my subjects on my degree I had to debate about. I got given to defend the FOR but me personally I think it's wrong after lots of research it leads so many open doors to abuse and ultimately if a person was mentally ill and of wrong mind I personally think dignitary and there protocol are pretty sketchy,, views opinions? Please let's debate and not argue and get personal x I think the same as you. I worked for a hospice for a while. I asked what their thoughts were about euthanasia, and they had a great response; they feel their job is to make people's lives worth living, so they don't want to die. And I think that's the point thats missed. You have to realise that there comes a point where no amount of caring and help can make any difference. If people want to end their lives, for whatever reason, they should be allowed to do so. We're continually dictated to about how we should live, sould we allow that to extend to how we should die also? I don't think so. I don't have to realise anything. However, I seem to be more knowledgeable about palliative care than you. You might be surprised." As you haven't shown much knowledge, yes I would be surprised | |||
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"To die with dignity or is it morally wrong? It was one of my subjects on my degree I had to debate about. I got given to defend the FOR but me personally I think it's wrong after lots of research it leads so many open doors to abuse and ultimately if a person was mentally ill and of wrong mind I personally think dignitary and there protocol are pretty sketchy,, views opinions? Please let's debate and not argue and get personal x I think the same as you. I worked for a hospice for a while. I asked what their thoughts were about euthanasia, and they had a great response; they feel their job is to make people's lives worth living, so they don't want to die. And I think that's the point thats missed. You have to realise that there comes a point where no amount of caring and help can make any difference. If people want to end their lives, for whatever reason, they should be allowed to do so. We're continually dictated to about how we should live, sould we allow that to extend to how we should die also? I don't think so. I don't have to realise anything. However, I seem to be more knowledgeable about palliative care than you. You might be surprised. As you haven't shown much knowledge, yes I would be surprised " Knowledge of what exactly? The op was whether we should have the right to choose when we die, not about what we think of palliative care. | |||
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"I'm sure most of us have had to witness once vital friends an family members fade away to nothing in a 'care' home. I am not suggesting that they would choose euthenasia necessarily but that the option should at least be made available to them. As far as palliative care goes in this country it seems to be lacking in both quality and quantity. " Old age, care home type senario is one where it should not be available. If they have been willing to go into a care home, then they are either pro life, or to mentally screwed up to give actual consent. My mother is one of them, discussed many times when she was younger how she would prefer death to dementia, now she is a batty old lady who can't remember anything much past the 1950's including who I am. She had a window of opportunity to get out, she ignored it, too late now. There are many ways of leaving this planet with minimal impact on others you don't need a law change, nobody has gone to prison for suicide, in many years, though plenty for murder. If you are rational enough to kill yourself be that through booze in a nice warm bath tub, or a one way ticket to Switzerland there are options. No need to promote killing over x year olds, or changing laws so you can bump off medically expensive relatives. | |||
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"I'm sure most of us have had to witness once vital friends an family members fade away to nothing in a 'care' home. I am not suggesting that they would choose euthenasia necessarily but that the option should at least be made available to them. As far as palliative care goes in this country it seems to be lacking in both quality and quantity. Old age, care home type senario is one where it should not be available. If they have been willing to go into a care home, then they are either pro life, or to mentally screwed up to give actual consent. My mother is one of them, discussed many times when she was younger how she would prefer death to dementia, now she is a batty old lady who can't remember anything much past the 1950's including who I am. She had a window of opportunity to get out, she ignored it, too late now. There are many ways of leaving this planet with minimal impact on others you don't need a law change, nobody has gone to prison for suicide, in many years, though plenty for murder. If you are rational enough to kill yourself be that through booze in a nice warm bath tub, or a one way ticket to Switzerland there are options. No need to promote killing over x year olds, or changing laws so you can bump off medically expensive relatives. " Dignitas charges €4000 for preparation and suicide assistance. People who would like to end their lives are often put off by the thought of pain, mess and not being successful and the huge impact it would have on their family. You suggest ending it in a d*unken stupor in a bath, what impact do you think that would have on the person who discovers the body? There is no such thing as minimal impact where suicide is concerned. Euthenasia at least offers people a chance to do it right, with dignity. | |||
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"To die with dignity or is it morally wrong? It was one of my subjects on my degree I had to debate about. I got given to defend the FOR but me personally I think it's wrong after lots of research it leads so many open doors to abuse and ultimately if a person was mentally ill and of wrong mind I personally think dignitary and there protocol are pretty sketchy,, views opinions? Please let's debate and not argue and get personal x I think the same as you. I worked for a hospice for a while. I asked what their thoughts were about euthanasia, and they had a great response; they feel their job is to make people's lives worth living, so they don't want to die. And I think that's the point thats missed. You have to realise that there comes a point where no amount of caring and help can make any difference. If people want to end their lives, for whatever reason, they should be allowed to do so. We're continually dictated to about how we should live, sould we allow that to extend to how we should die also? I don't think so. I don't have to realise anything. However, I seem to be more knowledgeable about palliative care than you. You might be surprised. As you haven't shown much knowledge, yes I would be surprised Knowledge of what exactly? The op was whether we should have the right to choose when we die, not about what we think of palliative care." As I previously stated, to which you replied 'I seem to have more knowledge about palliative care than you'. To which you replied I might be surprised. And yes, yes I would be surprised. Strawman much? But apart from replying to your own off topic comment. I think palliative care is very much part of the choice of when to die. You mention care homes, but nothing about hospices. Again, you aren't showing a knowledge of palliative care, so no, not surprising me | |||
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"To die with dignity or is it morally wrong? It was one of my subjects on my degree I had to debate about. I got given to defend the FOR but me personally I think it's wrong after lots of research it leads so many open doors to abuse and ultimately if a person was mentally ill and of wrong mind I personally think dignitary and there protocol are pretty sketchy,, views opinions? Please let's debate and not argue and get personal x I think the same as you. I worked for a hospice for a while. I asked what their thoughts were about euthanasia, and they had a great response; they feel their job is to make people's lives worth living, so they don't want to die. And I think that's the point thats missed. You have to realise that there comes a point where no amount of caring and help can make any difference. If people want to end their lives, for whatever reason, they should be allowed to do so. We're continually dictated to about how we should live, sould we allow that to extend to how we should die also? I don't think so. I don't have to realise anything. However, I seem to be more knowledgeable about palliative care than you. You might be surprised. As you haven't shown much knowledge, yes I would be surprised Knowledge of what exactly? The op was whether we should have the right to choose when we die, not about what we think of palliative care. As I previously stated, to which you replied 'I seem to have more knowledge about palliative care than you'. To which you replied I might be surprised. And yes, yes I would be surprised. Strawman much? But apart from replying to your own off topic comment. I think palliative care is very much part of the choice of when to die. You mention care homes, but nothing about hospices. Again, you aren't showing a knowledge of palliative care, so no, not surprising me " Are you suggesting then that hospices offer euthenasia? If not then i don't see where the choice of WHEN to die is provided as an option, regardless of whatever institution the terminally ill finds themselves in. | |||
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"To die with dignity or is it morally wrong? It was one of my subjects on my degree I had to debate about. I got given to defend the FOR but me personally I think it's wrong after lots of research it leads so many open doors to abuse and ultimately if a person was mentally ill and of wrong mind I personally think dignitary and there protocol are pretty sketchy,, views opinions? Please let's debate and not argue and get personal x I think the same as you. I worked for a hospice for a while. I asked what their thoughts were about euthanasia, and they had a great response; they feel their job is to make people's lives worth living, so they don't want to die. And I think that's the point thats missed. You have to realise that there comes a point where no amount of caring and help can make any difference. If people want to end their lives, for whatever reason, they should be allowed to do so. We're continually dictated to about how we should live, sould we allow that to extend to how we should die also? I don't think so. I don't have to realise anything. However, I seem to be more knowledgeable about palliative care than you. You might be surprised. As you haven't shown much knowledge, yes I would be surprised Knowledge of what exactly? The op was whether we should have the right to choose when we die, not about what we think of palliative care. As I previously stated, to which you replied 'I seem to have more knowledge about palliative care than you'. To which you replied I might be surprised. And yes, yes I would be surprised. Strawman much? But apart from replying to your own off topic comment. I think palliative care is very much part of the choice of when to die. You mention care homes, but nothing about hospices. Again, you aren't showing a knowledge of palliative care, so no, not surprising me Are you suggesting then that hospices offer euthenasia? If not then i don't see where the choice of WHEN to die is provided as an option, regardless of whatever institution the terminally ill finds themselves in." I have no idea how you dug that up. I didn't say that at all. You seem to be deliberately either misreading my posts to argue... I wonder why | |||
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"Dignitas charges €4000 for preparation and suicide assistance. People who would like to end their lives are often put off by the thought of pain, mess and not being successful and the huge impact it would have on their family. You suggest ending it in a d*unken stupor in a bath, what impact do you think that would have on the person who discovers the body? There is no such thing as minimal impact where suicide is concerned. Euthenasia at least offers people a chance to do it right, with dignity. " €4000 euros is pretty cheep, add another €2000 for a first class flight to Switzerland, comes to about 1 months fees for a non nursing care home, or 1 night in a private hospital. Most adults can afford that, they won't need to cover the groceries next week after all. Euthenasia is either suicide, or murder. no dignity is gained or lost through someone wearing a white coat. As for DIY options post a door key and a letter to a funeral diector before climbing in the bath, absolutely no grey area suicide, done on the cheep with as much dignity as death can ever bring. | |||
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"Dignitas charges €4000 for preparation and suicide assistance. People who would like to end their lives are often put off by the thought of pain, mess and not being successful and the huge impact it would have on their family. You suggest ending it in a d*unken stupor in a bath, what impact do you think that would have on the person who discovers the body? There is no such thing as minimal impact where suicide is concerned. Euthenasia at least offers people a chance to do it right, with dignity. " I get this. I have only been in pain like this for 31/2 months, and honestly, there are moments where I want to swallow every crappy neurological painkiller in the house washed down with a bottle of vodka. It is absolutely soul destroying and the thought of living with this pain and more is out of the question. The thing that stops me at this time is the chance to try the big guns in disease modifying drugs, which come with a risk of 1/1000 chance of death. I am taking my chances with it, if it stops the progression for a few years and I have the chance of a semi-normal life, that will be amazing. But if it doesn't work, I will be looking at Dignitas for when that time comes. Shame I can't decide here, in the uk, with a sound mind to be allowed to slip off peacefully. Hopefully that time is a long way off | |||
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"To die with dignity or is it morally wrong? It was one of my subjects on my degree I had to debate about. I got given to defend the FOR but me personally I think it's wrong after lots of research it leads so many open doors to abuse and ultimately if a person was mentally ill and of wrong mind I personally think dignitary and there protocol are pretty sketchy,, views opinions? Please let's debate and not argue and get personal x I think the same as you. I worked for a hospice for a while. I asked what their thoughts were about euthanasia, and they had a great response; they feel their job is to make people's lives worth living, so they don't want to die. And I think that's the point thats missed. You have to realise that there comes a point where no amount of caring and help can make any difference. If people want to end their lives, for whatever reason, they should be allowed to do so. We're continually dictated to about how we should live, sould we allow that to extend to how we should die also? I don't think so. I don't have to realise anything. However, I seem to be more knowledgeable about palliative care than you. You might be surprised. As you haven't shown much knowledge, yes I would be surprised Knowledge of what exactly? The op was whether we should have the right to choose when we die, not about what we think of palliative care. As I previously stated, to which you replied 'I seem to have more knowledge about palliative care than you'. To which you replied I might be surprised. And yes, yes I would be surprised. Strawman much? But apart from replying to your own off topic comment. I think palliative care is very much part of the choice of when to die. You mention care homes, but nothing about hospices. Again, you aren't showing a knowledge of palliative care, so no, not surprising me Are you suggesting then that hospices offer euthenasia? If not then i don't see where the choice of WHEN to die is provided as an option, regardless of whatever institution the terminally ill finds themselves in. I have no idea how you dug that up. I didn't say that at all. You seem to be deliberately either misreading my posts to argue... I wonder why "To quote you 'I think palliative care is very much part of the choice of when to die'. When implies choice, choice implies euthenasia. | |||
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"Dignitas charges €4000 for preparation and suicide assistance. People who would like to end their lives are often put off by the thought of pain, mess and not being successful and the huge impact it would have on their family. You suggest ending it in a d*unken stupor in a bath, what impact do you think that would have on the person who discovers the body? There is no such thing as minimal impact where suicide is concerned. Euthenasia at least offers people a chance to do it right, with dignity. I get this. I have only been in pain like this for 31/2 months, and honestly, there are moments where I want to swallow every crappy neurological painkiller in the house washed down with a bottle of vodka. It is absolutely soul destroying and the thought of living with this pain and more is out of the question. The thing that stops me at this time is the chance to try the big guns in disease modifying drugs, which come with a risk of 1/1000 chance of death. I am taking my chances with it, if it stops the progression for a few years and I have the chance of a semi-normal life, that will be amazing. But if it doesn't work, I will be looking at Dignitas for when that time comes. Shame I can't decide here, in the uk, with a sound mind to be allowed to slip off peacefully. Hopefully that time is a long way off "Hope it is a long and good experience way off. hopefully one of the test cures will improve things for you. | |||
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"To die with dignity or is it morally wrong? It was one of my subjects on my degree I had to debate about. I got given to defend the FOR but me personally I think it's wrong after lots of research it leads so many open doors to abuse and ultimately if a person was mentally ill and of wrong mind I personally think dignitary and there protocol are pretty sketchy,, views opinions? Please let's debate and not argue and get personal x I think the same as you. I worked for a hospice for a while. I asked what their thoughts were about euthanasia, and they had a great response; they feel their job is to make people's lives worth living, so they don't want to die. And I think that's the point thats missed. You have to realise that there comes a point where no amount of caring and help can make any difference. If people want to end their lives, for whatever reason, they should be allowed to do so. We're continually dictated to about how we should live, sould we allow that to extend to how we should die also? I don't think so. I don't have to realise anything. However, I seem to be more knowledgeable about palliative care than you. You might be surprised. As you haven't shown much knowledge, yes I would be surprised Knowledge of what exactly? The op was whether we should have the right to choose when we die, not about what we think of palliative care. As I previously stated, to which you replied 'I seem to have more knowledge about palliative care than you'. To which you replied I might be surprised. And yes, yes I would be surprised. Strawman much? But apart from replying to your own off topic comment. I think palliative care is very much part of the choice of when to die. You mention care homes, but nothing about hospices. Again, you aren't showing a knowledge of palliative care, so no, not surprising me Are you suggesting then that hospices offer euthenasia? If not then i don't see where the choice of WHEN to die is provided as an option, regardless of whatever institution the terminally ill finds themselves in. I have no idea how you dug that up. I didn't say that at all. You seem to be deliberately either misreading my posts to argue... I wonder why
To quote you 'I think palliative care is very much part of the choice of when to die'. When implies choice, choice implies euthenasia."And as I said before hospices are about helping people to not want to die. Palliative care is very much a part of that, thus are a part of the choice of wanting to die. To spell it out, the choice can also be to NOT want to die. | |||
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"To die with dignity or is it morally wrong? It was one of my subjects on my degree I had to debate about. I got given to defend the FOR but me personally I think it's wrong after lots of research it leads so many open doors to abuse and ultimately if a person was mentally ill and of wrong mind I personally think dignitary and there protocol are pretty sketchy,, views opinions? Please let's debate and not argue and get personal x I think the same as you. I worked for a hospice for a while. I asked what their thoughts were about euthanasia, and they had a great response; they feel their job is to make people's lives worth living, so they don't want to die. And I think that's the point thats missed. You have to realise that there comes a point where no amount of caring and help can make any difference. If people want to end their lives, for whatever reason, they should be allowed to do so. We're continually dictated to about how we should live, sould we allow that to extend to how we should die also? I don't think so. I don't have to realise anything. However, I seem to be more knowledgeable about palliative care than you. You might be surprised. As you haven't shown much knowledge, yes I would be surprised Knowledge of what exactly? The op was whether we should have the right to choose when we die, not about what we think of palliative care. As I previously stated, to which you replied 'I seem to have more knowledge about palliative care than you'. To which you replied I might be surprised. And yes, yes I would be surprised. Strawman much? But apart from replying to your own off topic comment. I think palliative care is very much part of the choice of when to die. You mention care homes, but nothing about hospices. Again, you aren't showing a knowledge of palliative care, so no, not surprising me Are you suggesting then that hospices offer euthenasia? If not then i don't see where the choice of WHEN to die is provided as an option, regardless of whatever institution the terminally ill finds themselves in. I have no idea how you dug that up. I didn't say that at all. You seem to be deliberately either misreading my posts to argue... I wonder why
To quote you 'I think palliative care is very much part of the choice of when to die'. When implies choice, choice implies euthenasia.
And as I said before hospices are about helping people to not want to die. Palliative care is very much a part of that, thus are a part of the choice of wanting to die. To spell it out, the choice can also be to NOT want to die. "I understand that, but the whole point of this thread is whether people should be offered the choice of when to die in the first place. | |||
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"To die with dignity or is it morally wrong? It was one of my subjects on my degree I had to debate about. I got given to defend the FOR but me personally I think it's wrong after lots of research it leads so many open doors to abuse and ultimately if a person was mentally ill and of wrong mind I personally think dignitary and there protocol are pretty sketchy,, views opinions? Please let's debate and not argue and get personal x I think the same as you. I worked for a hospice for a while. I asked what their thoughts were about euthanasia, and they had a great response; they feel their job is to make people's lives worth living, so they don't want to die. And I think that's the point thats missed. You have to realise that there comes a point where no amount of caring and help can make any difference. If people want to end their lives, for whatever reason, they should be allowed to do so. We're continually dictated to about how we should live, sould we allow that to extend to how we should die also? I don't think so. I don't have to realise anything. However, I seem to be more knowledgeable about palliative care than you. You might be surprised. As you haven't shown much knowledge, yes I would be surprised Knowledge of what exactly? The op was whether we should have the right to choose when we die, not about what we think of palliative care. As I previously stated, to which you replied 'I seem to have more knowledge about palliative care than you'. To which you replied I might be surprised. And yes, yes I would be surprised. Strawman much? But apart from replying to your own off topic comment. I think palliative care is very much part of the choice of when to die. You mention care homes, but nothing about hospices. Again, you aren't showing a knowledge of palliative care, so no, not surprising me Are you suggesting then that hospices offer euthenasia? If not then i don't see where the choice of WHEN to die is provided as an option, regardless of whatever institution the terminally ill finds themselves in. I have no idea how you dug that up. I didn't say that at all. You seem to be deliberately either misreading my posts to argue... I wonder why
To quote you 'I think palliative care is very much part of the choice of when to die'. When implies choice, choice implies euthenasia.
And as I said before hospices are about helping people to not want to die. Palliative care is very much a part of that, thus are a part of the choice of wanting to die. To spell it out, the choice can also be to NOT want to die.
I understand that, but the whole point of this thread is whether people should be offered the choice of when to die in the first place. "Oh geez. Ok, whatever. Threads never take on a wider view... | |||
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"Dignitas charges €4000 for preparation and suicide assistance. People who would like to end their lives are often put off by the thought of pain, mess and not being successful and the huge impact it would have on their family. You suggest ending it in a d*unken stupor in a bath, what impact do you think that would have on the person who discovers the body? There is no such thing as minimal impact where suicide is concerned. Euthenasia at least offers people a chance to do it right, with dignity. " * if you have the money | |||
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"Dignitas charges €4000 for preparation and suicide assistance. People who would like to end their lives are often put off by the thought of pain, mess and not being successful and the huge impact it would have on their family. You suggest ending it in a d*unken stupor in a bath, what impact do you think that would have on the person who discovers the body? There is no such thing as minimal impact where suicide is concerned. Euthenasia at least offers people a chance to do it right, with dignity. * if you have the money" Quite, which is why i believe it should be available in this country for free. | |||
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"* if you have the money Quite, which is why i believe it should be available in this country for free." Why free? you are about to either spend or land your family with a bill of that plus quite a lot more, on a funeral, why not pay the wages and costs of the people you want to contract to kill you? It should not be yet another NHS cost, as it is after all elective not required. | |||
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"* if you have the money Quite, which is why i believe it should be available in this country for free. Why free? you are about to either spend or land your family with a bill of that plus quite a lot more, on a funeral, why not pay the wages and costs of the people you want to contract to kill you? It should not be yet another NHS cost, as it is after all elective not required. " Why free? Because the teminally ill and their families have enough heart ache to deal with without having to foot the bill for it. Funeral costs are inevitable and therefore irrelevant and euthenasia is not about people wanting to kill other people. It's about people who are at the end of their lives, who've lived their lives making choices, wanting to be able to choose how and when they die. I don't understand why you would want to deny them that choice. On a side note, there is already elective surgery carried on the NHS of a far more trivial nature. | |||
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"I never said I object to euthanasia, but your version of it is contracting a person to carry out a killing, the fact you are contracting them to kill you is irrelevant. I feel it's unfair to expect all doctors and nurses to be OK with this. As for who pays, a lemonade stall and a fun run could raise the €4000 plus I guarantee you can get it done for less if it's not in Swiss francs. have you seen the price of a cup of tea over there? Putting your own life savings towards it in my view reenforces the consent, and stops the decision becoming the NHS trust budgeting department who could save a lot on treatment costs for a double dose of heroine " So you're ok with doctors in Switzerland doing it but not British doctors? Interesting. | |||
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"I never said I object to euthanasia, but your version of it is contracting a person to carry out a killing, the fact you are contracting them to kill you is irrelevant. I feel it's unfair to expect all doctors and nurses to be OK with this. As for who pays, a lemonade stall and a fun run could raise the €4000 plus I guarantee you can get it done for less if it's not in Swiss francs. have you seen the price of a cup of tea over there? Putting your own life savings towards it in my view reenforces the consent, and stops the decision becoming the NHS trust budgeting department who could save a lot on treatment costs for a double dose of heroine So you're ok with doctors in Switzerland doing it but not British doctors? Interesting." Not all doctors in Switzerland work for Digital. Only those who choose to kill should be made to kill. | |||
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"I never said I object to euthanasia, but your version of it is contracting a person to carry out a killing, the fact you are contracting them to kill you is irrelevant. I feel it's unfair to expect all doctors and nurses to be OK with this. As for who pays, a lemonade stall and a fun run could raise the €4000 plus I guarantee you can get it done for less if it's not in Swiss francs. have you seen the price of a cup of tea over there? Putting your own life savings towards it in my view reenforces the consent, and stops the decision becoming the NHS trust budgeting department who could save a lot on treatment costs for a double dose of heroine So you're ok with doctors in Switzerland doing it but not British doctors? Interesting. Not all doctors in Switzerland work for Digital. Only those who choose to kill should be made to kill. " And i wouldn't expect all doctors here to do it either. To correct your turn of phrase - no doctor chooses to kill and certainly none are made to kill. They simply provide the means for the patient to do it themselves, a marked difference. | |||
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"And i wouldn't expect all doctors here to do it either. To correct your turn of phrase - no doctor chooses to kill and certainly none are made to kill. They simply provide the means for the patient to do it themselves, a marked difference." In an NHS where doctors can't choose to work or not work weekends, you think J Hunt will allow them to opt in to lethal dosing? If all Dignitas is providing is a bed and the drugs, and you get to inject yourself then you can do that at home, if they are putting a line in and setting up a pump they are involved. | |||
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"And i wouldn't expect all doctors here to do it either. To correct your turn of phrase - no doctor chooses to kill and certainly none are made to kill. They simply provide the means for the patient to do it themselves, a marked difference. In an NHS where doctors can't choose to work or not work weekends, you think J Hunt will allow them to opt in to lethal dosing? If all Dignitas is providing is a bed and the drugs, and you get to inject yourself then you can do that at home, if they are putting a line in and setting up a pump they are involved." That they volunteer is an obvious proviso. I think you'll find the dose is more commonly a drink, of course you could do that at home but as i'm sure you're aware overdosing is often messy and prone to failure. There is no getting away from a doctor being involved, be it through a drink or setting up a drip for the patient to turn on. Either way it is still assisted suicide and not murder as you state. | |||
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"Sorry not ignoring you just got hijacked by life... suicide, assisted suicide, unlawful killing, murder etc are labels and will vary country to country. In the UK I don't think there is an actual legal status to assisted suicide. So taking someone's life in a planned though not necessarily targeted action is murder. Obviously judges then consider mitigating circumstances before sentencing and I think that is where the term assisted suicide comes in. If the drug is taken orally I would not choose that as an exit strategy. the time between ingestion and action would be excruciatingly long, and the failure rate massive. That would be a cruel possible exit. " I think you're too hooked up on terminology. Dignitas uses an orally administered drug, the patient falls asleep and then dies, all very calm and dignified. The success rate is 100%. Because of the laws of this country the only option to overdose is with pain killers, messy and not guaranteed to be successful often leaving the patient with organ damage. | |||
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"Ive uhmmed and ahhed over this thread all day, thinking about it I would support dignitas in this country, I had a loved one who committed suicide, it was a horrible time as we couldnt find her as she hid herself so no-one would be able to stop her, she had suffered with MDD for over 50years and I just wish she would have had the opportunity to do it somewhere in a calm and loving environment with her family around her and in a way that wasnt so horrid and painful. If someone truly wants out of this world and is of sound mind to make that decision then they should be given the choice to do so and the family not be arrested for it. " My thoughts exactly. | |||
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