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"What does everyone think? Personally I agree that no action be taken over it From what I make of it it was thug mentality An out of control free for all The point the miners were making got completely lost If I was a policeman and a thug came running at me I'd defend myself In the same vein If a policeman came running at me I'd defend myself " It was a tragedy. I do tend to side with the government's decision not to hold an enquiry though. It was a long time ago and policing methods have changed considerably. I am not sure what would be gained by an enquiry now. | |||
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"So because it happened a long time ago it's ok then? Hillsborough was a long time ago but the determination of the families of the victims finally saw justice achieved. Orgreave was a disgraceful abuse of working people who were just trying to defend their jobs. That government was determined to crush them, whatever the cost. We still have millions of tons of coal under our feet but there's no way British miners will ever reach it again. Coal is brought from the corners of the globe instead..." No, it is not OK, but I am uncertain as to what an enquiry would achieve. What do you think would be gained? | |||
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"My Dad was there. He was no thug, in fact, a kinder, more gentle man you'd never have met. He was, he believed, making a stand for his right to employment. He came back with a story of thuggery meted out by the police officers AND soldiers*. One story he told was of a horse mounted officer who swung a baton at picketers heads "like he was playing polo." There is a case to answer, not just about Orgreave but by many unscrupulous methods used by the police during the 70s, 80s and 90s. *My Dad always contended that the truth would never come out, due to the government using troops as well as rank and file police officers. I lived through the Miners strike and have immense pride in my Dad who was Vice Chairman of our local NUM Lodge and my Mam who was Chairwoman of the local Miners Wives Group. My parents, now both sadly deceased, never recovered the respect that they had once had for the police, nor the wider 'establishment'. " Not to mention the police argent provocateur there that day | |||
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"I lived 600yds from Orgreave at the time and I saw first hand what was happening I also had to drive past orgreave everyday to get to work. Firstly the fact that miners were picketing orgreave was secondary picketing as it was a British Steel business not a British Coal business, secondary picketing was and still is illegal. Everyday leading up to the day everyone remembers, miners were bussed in on coaches and mini busses, they were dropped off on the main Retford road where I lived, they sat on the grass,garden walls,Kerbs etc waiting for certain times where they were signaled by union reps to march on Orgreave coking plant's front gates, theses marches were timed for when the fleet of lorries were to arrive bringing coal from Nottinghamshite pits that was turned into for use in Sheffield steelworks, I know this for fact as I could see it all from my front window, they used to visit the local Asda to buy their refreshments and everyday thousands of empty beer cans were left thrown on the grass verges. They did not cause any problems with local residents and did not block the roads they just "massed" ready for the time to match onto Orgreave, as the numbers of miners increased so did the number of police waiting for them who were "stationed" across the road from Orgreave front gates, I drove past both sets of people miners and police daily for a week or so and for most of the time it was all quiet until the time the lorries were due which of course both sets of people know when they were due. That's when it all kicked off each day as the lorries approached full of coal and then left an hour later full of . Outside of these times it was all very quiet and at these times it was all orchestrated. The miners came looking for a fight, maybe not individually to fight but a collective mass it was pretty sure thing it was going to happen with all the pushing and shoving as they tried to stop the lorries and Thatcher made sure there were enough police there to ensure the lorries could get in and out, the police also used to wind up the miners with taunts about them being on overtime or waving payslips etc at them, then on the main day everyone recalls all the top brass from the miners were there,Scargill etc and it was pretty much guaranteed he was going to ensure he got arrested and the police were pretty much sure they were going to arrest the key players, Scargill was trying to bring down the Thatcher government and Thatcher was adamant she would not let the miners do that, I also lived through the steel strike a year or so earlier which around Sheffield and South Yorkshire was dreadful for families, mine included. Thatcher crushed the steelworkers strike and Scargill wanted to show he could get the miners to do what the steel workers couldn't do, my dad was a steelworker and to this day he blames the miners for not supporting the steelworkers while they were out on strike which he is sure led the steelworkers to lose their fight. On that fateful day the miners came looking for a fight and the police were there to defend the Lorry drivers and Steel workers in Orgreave and if needed be give the miners what they wanted. In my opinion it should be put to bed, both miners and police were looking for it and they both found it, again in my opinion the miners won't let it rest as they lost the strike and they want "justice", justice for being arrested for fighting against the police who were in the main ordered to be there to uphold the law and allow lorry drivers and steelworkers to do their jobs, I'm not saying the police were angels and I fully believe some of them thought it was a great bit of action to beat up miners who were not armed with truncheon or shields as they were. It was all a political situation engineered between the Thatcher government and the mine workers union, the strike was dreadful for the families involved but I think the world has moved on and there isn't no justice to be had as the pawns in the battle were both intrinsically doing the same thing. " Informative post,,,,  | |||
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"the witch Margaret thatcher used the military to brake the miners union and payed the person who hit arther scargil on the head the sum of £500 " Who paid the 2 striking miners who killed the taxi driver who was just going about his work... There was so much wrong doing on all sides..... Nothing will change the past.... | |||
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"the witch Margaret thatcher used the military to brake the miners union and payed the person who hit arther scargil on the head the sum of £500 " Whole communities just wiped out. Many of the miners never worked again. | |||
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"My Dad was there. He was no thug, in fact, a kinder, more gentle man you'd never have met. He was, he believed, making a stand for his right to employment. He came back with a story of thuggery meted out by the police officers AND soldiers*. One story he told was of a horse mounted officer who swung a baton at picketers heads "like he was playing polo." There is a case to answer, not just about Orgreave but by many unscrupulous methods used by the police during the 70s, 80s and 90s. *My Dad always contended that the truth would never come out, due to the government using troops as well as rank and file police officers. I lived through the Miners strike and have immense pride in my Dad who was Vice Chairman of our local NUM Lodge and my Mam who was Chairwoman of the local Miners Wives Group. My parents, now both sadly deceased, never recovered the respect that they had once had for the police, nor the wider 'establishment'. Not to mention the police argent provocateur there that day " And in every mining community too. A family friends son was a Met Police Officer and he was actually assigned back to our village. He was allegedly on sick leave, but was going to the local club, ingratiating himself, buying pints etc. Rabble rousing with the younger strikers, encouraging them on how he thought they ought to behave on picket lines etc His Dad sussed out what was happening and sent him packing. None of the family have spoken to him since. In fact, his Dad passed away recently and he never attended the funeral, wasn't mentioned with the other children in the eulogy etc Feelings still run high, for those involved in the strike, don't they? | |||
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"the witch Margaret thatcher used the military to brake the miners union and payed the person who hit arther scargil on the head the sum of £500 Whole communities just wiped out. Many of the miners never worked again. " I was amazed how many pits had closed, and how many mining jobs had been lost long before the 1980s. I also remember the mid 80s recession, when for every miner who lost his job, 10 people in the Construction Industry lost theirs. And no-one even noticed. Many miners never worked again, but most of those in Construction did what was right for their families and found work. Ironically I ended up specialising in clearing up the mess the pits left behind. So the jobs were there... Mr ddc | |||
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"I lived 600yds from Orgreave at the time and I saw first hand what was happening I also had to drive past orgreave everyday to get to work. Firstly the fact that miners were picketing orgreave was secondary picketing as it was a British Steel business not a British Coal business, secondary picketing was and still is illegal. Everyday leading up to the day everyone remembers, miners were bussed in on coaches and mini busses, they were dropped off on the main Retford road where I lived, they sat on the grass,garden walls,Kerbs etc waiting for certain times where they were signaled by union reps to march on Orgreave coking plant's front gates, theses marches were timed for when the fleet of lorries were to arrive bringing coal from Nottinghamshite pits that was turned into for use in Sheffield steelworks, I know this for fact as I could see it all from my front window, they used to visit the local Asda to buy their refreshments and everyday thousands of empty beer cans were left thrown on the grass verges. They did not cause any problems with local residents and did not block the roads they just "massed" ready for the time to match onto Orgreave, as the numbers of miners increased so did the number of police waiting for them who were "stationed" across the road from Orgreave front gates, I drove past both sets of people miners and police daily for a week or so and for most of the time it was all quiet until the time the lorries were due which of course both sets of people know when they were due. That's when it all kicked off each day as the lorries approached full of coal and then left an hour later full of . Outside of these times it was all very quiet and at these times it was all orchestrated. The miners came looking for a fight, maybe not individually to fight but a collective mass it was pretty sure thing it was going to happen with all the pushing and shoving as they tried to stop the lorries and Thatcher made sure there were enough police there to ensure the lorries could get in and out, the police also used to wind up the miners with taunts about them being on overtime or waving payslips etc at them, then on the main day everyone recalls all the top brass from the miners were there,Scargill etc and it was pretty much guaranteed he was going to ensure he got arrested and the police were pretty much sure they were going to arrest the key players, Scargill was trying to bring down the Thatcher government and Thatcher was adamant she would not let the miners do that, I also lived through the steel strike a year or so earlier which around Sheffield and South Yorkshire was dreadful for families, mine included. Thatcher crushed the steelworkers strike and Scargill wanted to show he could get the miners to do what the steel workers couldn't do, my dad was a steelworker and to this day he blames the miners for not supporting the steelworkers while they were out on strike which he is sure led the steelworkers to lose their fight. On that fateful day the miners came looking for a fight and the police were there to defend the Lorry drivers and Steel workers in Orgreave and if needed be give the miners what they wanted. In my opinion it should be put to bed, both miners and police were looking for it and they both found it, again in my opinion the miners won't let it rest as they lost the strike and they want "justice", justice for being arrested for fighting against the police who were in the main ordered to be there to uphold the law and allow lorry drivers and steelworkers to do their jobs, I'm not saying the police were angels and I fully believe some of them thought it was a great bit of action to beat up miners who were not armed with truncheon or shields as they were. It was all a political situation engineered between the Thatcher government and the mine workers union, the strike was dreadful for the families involved but I think the world has moved on and there isn't no justice to be had as the pawns in the battle were both intrinsically doing the same thing. " Thanks for writing that, that is a great first hand account. I don't doubt your veracity and what you have written sounds very level headed. As for police officers waving their payslips, they used to enact a blockade every day outside my Primary School and used to do the same as we we on our dinner break. Wave their payslips at us and tell us to encourage our Dads to stay on strike. I remember one also pouring a whole bottle of Corona pop out in front of a group of about six of us saying "bet you wish you could afford this." Our Head Master (Mr. Pembrey, a wonderful man, who spent his whole career in our school and had taught three generations) saw this and spat at his feet. "Scum you are sir, scum. To treat children like this, marks you for what you are." I'll never forget the anger of his words and the sadness in his eyes. | |||
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"the witch Margaret thatcher used the military to brake the miners union and payed the person who hit arther scargil on the head the sum of £500 Who paid the 2 striking miners who killed the taxi driver who was just going about his work... There was so much wrong doing on all sides..... Nothing will change the past...." I was expecting someone to post that. My family knew one of the two who did that, no one paid them. They were very young men who acted on their own. The tears that were shed in our home alone would fill buckets. That was a terrible, terrible episode, that no one could have anticipated. Tragic. | |||
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"the witch Margaret thatcher used the military to brake the miners union and payed the person who hit arther scargil on the head the sum of £500 Who paid the 2 striking miners who killed the taxi driver who was just going about his work... There was so much wrong doing on all sides..... Nothing will change the past.... I was expecting someone to post that. My family knew one of the two who did that, no one paid them. They were very young men who acted on their own. The tears that were shed in our home alone would fill buckets. That was a terrible, terrible episode, that no one could have anticipated. Tragic. " Exactly no-one paid them ... but their actions were motivated by hate even though I'm sure they never intended the outcome no-one can defend what they did as justifiable The whole miners strike was a tragedy,,,, I grew up amongst divided families .... there was so much wrong doing on all sides..... | |||
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"the witch Margaret thatcher used the military to brake the miners union and payed the person who hit arther scargil on the head the sum of £500 Whole communities just wiped out. Many of the miners never worked again. I was amazed how many pits had closed, and how many mining jobs had been lost long before the 1980s. I also remember the mid 80s recession, when for every miner who lost his job, 10 people in the Construction Industry lost theirs. And no-one even noticed. Many miners never worked again, but most of those in Construction did what was right for their families and found work. Ironically I ended up specialising in clearing up the mess the pits left behind. So the jobs were there... Mr ddc" Many never worked due to ill health. Mental ill-health quadrupled locally. My Dad couldn't bare the thought of not working. He left his job at the pit on the last day of production in June 1986 and took a job as a school caretaker in the September of the same year. He worked continuously until he took a fall down 48 stone steps in November 2002, from which he sustained terrible injuries and sadly passed away in April 2003. Just before his 60th birthday. Never lived to claim a penny of his pensions or to enjoy his retirement. Started work the day after his 15th birthday. I have immense pride in my father and his memory. God Rest His Soul. | |||
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"the witch Margaret thatcher used the military to brake the miners union and payed the person who hit arther scargil on the head the sum of £500 Who paid the 2 striking miners who killed the taxi driver who was just going about his work... There was so much wrong doing on all sides..... Nothing will change the past.... I was expecting someone to post that. My family knew one of the two who did that, no one paid them. They were very young men who acted on their own. The tears that were shed in our home alone would fill buckets. That was a terrible, terrible episode, that no one could have anticipated. Tragic. Exactly no-one paid them ... but their actions were motivated by hate even though I'm sure they never intended the outcome no-one can defend what they did as justifiable The whole miners strike was a tragedy,,,, I grew up amongst divided families .... there was so much wrong doing on all sides..... " I was fortunate as I grew up amongst united families. Markham Colliery had 13 scabs total and only one scab lived in the village. Well he did until the women of the village paid him a visit  . His wife left him and later divorced him and his children disowned him*
*befire anyone steps in and says "poor him" he was motivated to return to work by greed. He was a colliery safety man and was permitted to work 2.5 days a week. He was offered 10 days pay for ever 2.5 days additional work he did. That was the motivator for a lot of scabs. Getting one up on their frienda and neighbours. | |||
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"I have immense pride in my father and his memory. God Rest His Soul. " And rightly so. | |||
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"the witch Margaret thatcher used the military to brake the miners union and payed the person who hit arther scargil on the head the sum of £500 Who paid the 2 striking miners who killed the taxi driver who was just going about his work... There was so much wrong doing on all sides..... Nothing will change the past.... I was expecting someone to post that. My family knew one of the two who did that, no one paid them. They were very young men who acted on their own. The tears that were shed in our home alone would fill buckets. That was a terrible, terrible episode, that no one could have anticipated. Tragic. Exactly no-one paid them ... but their actions were motivated by hate even though I'm sure they never intended the outcome no-one can defend what they did as justifiable The whole miners strike was a tragedy,,,, I grew up amongst divided families .... there was so much wrong doing on all sides..... I was fortunate as I grew up amongst united families. Markham Colliery had 13 scabs total and only one scab lived in the village. Well he did until the women of the village paid him a visit . His wife left him and later divorced him and his children disowned him*
*befire anyone steps in and says "poor him" he was motivated to return to work by greed. He was a colliery safety man and was permitted to work 2.5 days a week. He was offered 10 days pay for ever 2.5 days additional work he did. That was the motivator for a lot of scabs. Getting one up on their frienda and neighbours. "Vile people. If they had all stuck together they would have won. We might still have a coal industry today. | |||
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" Vile people. If they had all stuck together they would have won. We might still have a coal industry today. " | |||
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"the witch Margaret thatcher used the military to brake the miners union and payed the person who hit arther scargil on the head the sum of £500 Who paid the 2 striking miners who killed the taxi driver who was just going about his work... There was so much wrong doing on all sides..... Nothing will change the past.... I was expecting someone to post that. My family knew one of the two who did that, no one paid them. They were very young men who acted on their own. The tears that were shed in our home alone would fill buckets. That was a terrible, terrible episode, that no one could have anticipated. Tragic. Exactly no-one paid them ... but their actions were motivated by hate even though I'm sure they never intended the outcome no-one can defend what they did as justifiable The whole miners strike was a tragedy,,,, I grew up amongst divided families .... there was so much wrong doing on all sides..... I was fortunate as I grew up amongst united families. Markham Colliery had 13 scabs total and only one scab lived in the village. Well he did until the women of the village paid him a visit . His wife left him and later divorced him and his children disowned him*
*befire anyone steps in and says "poor him" he was motivated to return to work by greed. He was a colliery safety man and was permitted to work 2.5 days a week. He was offered 10 days pay for ever 2.5 days additional work he did. That was the motivator for a lot of scabs. Getting one up on their frienda and neighbours. "You see I'm not comfortable with the continued use of the term scabs.... Those people did what they did with no malice ..... | |||
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"the witch Margaret thatcher used the military to brake the miners union and payed the person who hit arther scargil on the head the sum of £500 Who paid the 2 striking miners who killed the taxi driver who was just going about his work... There was so much wrong doing on all sides..... Nothing will change the past.... I was expecting someone to post that. My family knew one of the two who did that, no one paid them. They were very young men who acted on their own. The tears that were shed in our home alone would fill buckets. That was a terrible, terrible episode, that no one could have anticipated. Tragic. Exactly no-one paid them ... but their actions were motivated by hate even though I'm sure they never intended the outcome no-one can defend what they did as justifiable The whole miners strike was a tragedy,,,, I grew up amongst divided families .... there was so much wrong doing on all sides..... I was fortunate as I grew up amongst united families. Markham Colliery had 13 scabs total and only one scab lived in the village. Well he did until the women of the village paid him a visit . His wife left him and later divorced him and his children disowned him*
*befire anyone steps in and says "poor him" he was motivated to return to work by greed. He was a colliery safety man and was permitted to work 2.5 days a week. He was offered 10 days pay for ever 2.5 days additional work he did. That was the motivator for a lot of scabs. Getting one up on their frienda and neighbours.
You see I'm not comfortable with the continued use of the term scabs....
Those people did what they did with no malice ....."I use the term scabs as that is more politically correct to me than 'black leg'. As for no malice, that's bullshit! We know that scabs were paid more once they broke the strike and after the strike ended. Scabs also had higher redundancy payments. I use the term scab, because to me, that is what they are and always will be. I could say 'cunts' but I hate to use a derogatory term for such a beautiful piece of anatomy. I know stories where scabs entire families disowned them. In many cases not even allowing their names to be spoken again. Scabs they were, are and forever will be. Scabs. | |||
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"the witch Margaret thatcher used the military to brake the miners union and payed the person who hit arther scargil on the head the sum of £500 Who paid the 2 striking miners who killed the taxi driver who was just going about his work... There was so much wrong doing on all sides..... Nothing will change the past.... I was expecting someone to post that. My family knew one of the two who did that, no one paid them. They were very young men who acted on their own. The tears that were shed in our home alone would fill buckets. That was a terrible, terrible episode, that no one could have anticipated. Tragic. Exactly no-one paid them ... but their actions were motivated by hate even though I'm sure they never intended the outcome no-one can defend what they did as justifiable The whole miners strike was a tragedy,,,, I grew up amongst divided families .... there was so much wrong doing on all sides..... I was fortunate as I grew up amongst united families. Markham Colliery had 13 scabs total and only one scab lived in the village. Well he did until the women of the village paid him a visit . His wife left him and later divorced him and his children disowned him*
*befire anyone steps in and says "poor him" he was motivated to return to work by greed. He was a colliery safety man and was permitted to work 2.5 days a week. He was offered 10 days pay for ever 2.5 days additional work he did. That was the motivator for a lot of scabs. Getting one up on their frienda and neighbours.
You see I'm not comfortable with the continued use of the term scabs....
Those people did what they did with no malice .....
I use the term scabs as that is more politically correct to me than 'black leg'.
As for no malice, that's bullshit! We know that scabs were paid more once they broke the strike and after the strike ended. Scabs also had higher redundancy payments. I use the term scab, because to me, that is what they are and always will be. I could say 'cunts' but I hate to use a derogatory term for such a beautiful piece of anatomy.
I know stories where scabs entire families disowned them. In many cases not even allowing their names to be spoken again. Scabs they were, are and forever will be. Scabs.
"Oh well you obviously entitled to your opinion... As were they.... | |||
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"the witch Margaret thatcher used the military to brake the miners union and payed the person who hit arther scargil on the head the sum of £500 Who paid the 2 striking miners who killed the taxi driver who was just going about his work... There was so much wrong doing on all sides..... Nothing will change the past.... I was expecting someone to post that. My family knew one of the two who did that, no one paid them. They were very young men who acted on their own. The tears that were shed in our home alone would fill buckets. That was a terrible, terrible episode, that no one could have anticipated. Tragic. Exactly no-one paid them ... but their actions were motivated by hate even though I'm sure they never intended the outcome no-one can defend what they did as justifiable The whole miners strike was a tragedy,,,, I grew up amongst divided families .... there was so much wrong doing on all sides..... I was fortunate as I grew up amongst united families. Markham Colliery had 13 scabs total and only one scab lived in the village. Well he did until the women of the village paid him a visit . His wife left him and later divorced him and his children disowned him*
*befire anyone steps in and says "poor him" he was motivated to return to work by greed. He was a colliery safety man and was permitted to work 2.5 days a week. He was offered 10 days pay for ever 2.5 days additional work he did. That was the motivator for a lot of scabs. Getting one up on their frienda and neighbours.
You see I'm not comfortable with the continued use of the term scabs....
Those people did what they did with no malice .....
I use the term scabs as that is more politically correct to me than 'black leg'.
As for no malice, that's bullshit! We know that scabs were paid more once they broke the strike and after the strike ended. Scabs also had higher redundancy payments. I use the term scab, because to me, that is what they are and always will be. I could say 'cunts' but I hate to use a derogatory term for such a beautiful piece of anatomy.
I know stories where scabs entire families disowned them. In many cases not even allowing their names to be spoken again. Scabs they were, are and forever will be. Scabs.
Oh well you obviously entitled to your opinion...
As were they....
"Actions speak louder than any words. You said you grew up in a divided community? I'm assuming a child of a sc, erm, someone who choose to break the strike, cross picket lines, embrace division and opt for money over values? Or am I wrong? | |||
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"the witch Margaret thatcher used the military to brake the miners union and payed the person who hit arther scargil on the head the sum of £500 Who paid the 2 striking miners who killed the taxi driver who was just going about his work... There was so much wrong doing on all sides..... Nothing will change the past.... I was expecting someone to post that. My family knew one of the two who did that, no one paid them. They were very young men who acted on their own. The tears that were shed in our home alone would fill buckets. That was a terrible, terrible episode, that no one could have anticipated. Tragic. Exactly no-one paid them ... but their actions were motivated by hate even though I'm sure they never intended the outcome no-one can defend what they did as justifiable The whole miners strike was a tragedy,,,, I grew up amongst divided families .... there was so much wrong doing on all sides..... I was fortunate as I grew up amongst united families. Markham Colliery had 13 scabs total and only one scab lived in the village. Well he did until the women of the village paid him a visit . His wife left him and later divorced him and his children disowned him*
*befire anyone steps in and says "poor him" he was motivated to return to work by greed. He was a colliery safety man and was permitted to work 2.5 days a week. He was offered 10 days pay for ever 2.5 days additional work he did. That was the motivator for a lot of scabs. Getting one up on their frienda and neighbours.
You see I'm not comfortable with the continued use of the term scabs....
Those people did what they did with no malice .....
I use the term scabs as that is more politically correct to me than 'black leg'.
As for no malice, that's bullshit! We know that scabs were paid more once they broke the strike and after the strike ended. Scabs also had higher redundancy payments. I use the term scab, because to me, that is what they are and always will be. I could say 'cunts' but I hate to use a derogatory term for such a beautiful piece of anatomy.
I know stories where scabs entire families disowned them. In many cases not even allowing their names to be spoken again. Scabs they were, are and forever will be. Scabs.
Oh well you obviously entitled to your opinion...
As were they....
Actions speak louder than any words.
You said you grew up in a divided community? I'm assuming a child of a sc, erm, someone who choose to break the strike, cross picket lines, embrace division and opt for money over values? Or am I wrong? "Quite wrong in every regards apart from the location brief which didn't require an assumption ..... | |||
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"the witch Margaret thatcher used the military to brake the miners union and payed the person who hit arther scargil on the head the sum of £500 Who paid the 2 striking miners who killed the taxi driver who was just going about his work... There was so much wrong doing on all sides..... Nothing will change the past.... I was expecting someone to post that. My family knew one of the two who did that, no one paid them. They were very young men who acted on their own. The tears that were shed in our home alone would fill buckets. That was a terrible, terrible episode, that no one could have anticipated. Tragic. Exactly no-one paid them ... but their actions were motivated by hate even though I'm sure they never intended the outcome no-one can defend what they did as justifiable The whole miners strike was a tragedy,,,, I grew up amongst divided families .... there was so much wrong doing on all sides..... I was fortunate as I grew up amongst united families. Markham Colliery had 13 scabs total and only one scab lived in the village. Well he did until the women of the village paid him a visit . His wife left him and later divorced him and his children disowned him*
*befire anyone steps in and says "poor him" he was motivated to return to work by greed. He was a colliery safety man and was permitted to work 2.5 days a week. He was offered 10 days pay for ever 2.5 days additional work he did. That was the motivator for a lot of scabs. Getting one up on their frienda and neighbours.
You see I'm not comfortable with the continued use of the term scabs....
Those people did what they did with no malice .....
I use the term scabs as that is more politically correct to me than 'black leg'.
As for no malice, that's bullshit! We know that scabs were paid more once they broke the strike and after the strike ended. Scabs also had higher redundancy payments. I use the term scab, because to me, that is what they are and always will be. I could say 'cunts' but I hate to use a derogatory term for such a beautiful piece of anatomy.
I know stories where scabs entire families disowned them. In many cases not even allowing their names to be spoken again. Scabs they were, are and forever will be. Scabs.
Oh well you obviously entitled to your opinion...
As were they....
Actions speak louder than any words.
You said you grew up in a divided community? I'm assuming a child of a sc, erm, someone who choose to break the strike, cross picket lines, embrace division and opt for money over values? Or am I wrong?
Quite wrong in everoy regards apart from the location brief which didn't require an assumption ....."I stand corrected and of course apologise for being presumptuous. I would say though that the divided families amongst whom you grew up, were divided by the motivations of greed of some. Or, potentially an ideology of not uniting together in a common cause. It was Thatcher who said there was no such thing as society, she actively did all she could to bring that about. I believe that many of the government records of the time are sealed under the 100 Hundred Year Rule? We will never truly know what motivated the breakaway UDM, nor if it's leaders were in the pay of the government. As I am sure you are aware, growing up where you did, the whole Miners Strike is still very raw and emotive. For me, it always will be. | |||
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"the witch Margaret thatcher used the military to brake the miners union and payed the person who hit arther scargil on the head the sum of £500 Who paid the 2 striking miners who killed the taxi driver who was just going about his work... There was so much wrong doing on all sides..... Nothing will change the past.... I was expecting someone to post that. My family knew one of the two who did that, no one paid them. They were very young men who acted on their own. The tears that were shed in our home alone would fill buckets. That was a terrible, terrible episode, that no one could have anticipated. Tragic. Exactly no-one paid them ... but their actions were motivated by hate even though I'm sure they never intended the outcome no-one can defend what they did as justifiable The whole miners strike was a tragedy,,,, I grew up amongst divided families .... there was so much wrong doing on all sides..... I was fortunate as I grew up amongst united families. Markham Colliery had 13 scabs total and only one scab lived in the village. Well he did until the women of the village paid him a visit . His wife left him and later divorced him and his children disowned him*
*befire anyone steps in and says "poor him" he was motivated to return to work by greed. He was a colliery safety man and was permitted to work 2.5 days a week. He was offered 10 days pay for ever 2.5 days additional work he did. That was the motivator for a lot of scabs. Getting one up on their frienda and neighbours.
You see I'm not comfortable with the continued use of the term scabs....
Those people did what they did with no malice .....
I use the term scabs as that is more politically correct to me than 'black leg'.
As for no malice, that's bullshit! We know that scabs were paid more once they broke the strike and after the strike ended. Scabs also had higher redundancy payments. I use the term scab, because to me, that is what they are and always will be. I could say 'cunts' but I hate to use a derogatory term for such a beautiful piece of anatomy.
I know stories where scabs entire families disowned them. In many cases not even allowing their names to be spoken again. Scabs they were, are and forever will be. Scabs.
Oh well you obviously entitled to your opinion...
As were they....
Actions speak louder than any words.
You said you grew up in a divided community? I'm assuming a child of a sc, erm, someone who choose to break the strike, cross picket lines, embrace division and opt for money over values? Or am I wrong?
Quite wrong in everoy regards apart from the location brief which didn't require an assumption .....
I stand corrected and of course apologise for being presumptuous.
I would say though that the divided families amongst whom you grew up, were divided by the motivations of greed of some. Or, potentially an ideology of not uniting together in a common cause. It was Thatcher who said there was no such thing as society, she actively did all she could to bring that about.
I believe that many of the government records of the time are sealed under the 100 Hundred Year Rule? We will never truly know what motivated the breakaway UDM, nor if it's leaders were in the pay of the government.
As I am sure you are aware, growing up where you did, the whole Miners Strike is still very raw and emotive. For me, it always will be. "It was a tragedy but it wasn't so one sided ....... Much in the same way the motivation that drove miners who chose to work are not able to be demonised with such sweeping disregard for anyone opinion other than those of the striking miners and their supporters.... | |||
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"It was Thatcher who said there was no such thing as society, she actively did all she could to bring that about." What she actually said was: "And, you know, there is no such thing as society. There are individual men and women, and there are families. And no government can do anything except through people, and people must look to themselves first. It's our duty to look after ourselves and then, also to look after our neighbour." Technically abstract nouns do not actually exist, people do. And it is people, working hard and paying their taxes, that provides the Welfare State that we have today. Not "society" or "government". That was the point. Mr ddc | |||
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" It was a tragedy but it wasn't so one sided ....... Much in the same way the motivation that drove miners who chose to work are not able to be demonised with such sweeping disregard for anyone opinion other than those of the striking miners and their supporters... " I am not sweepingly disregarding your opinion, I am attempting to engage in meaningful dialogue. I have laid out my stall in my contention that it was greed that motivated strike breakers. See, I've even taken on board your dislike of the 's' word. However, I cannot see an alternative premises proposed by yourself. As I stated, the whole history of the strike, prior and post, is emotive. Whilst loathe to want to sympathise with strike breakers and *their supporters, I do want to understand them. As I've stated, in my part of the world, I have never had the chance to speak with any of these people, because all were ostracised. | |||
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"It was Thatcher who said there was no such thing as society, she actively did all she could to bring that about. What she actually said was: "And, you know, there is no such thing as society. There are individual men and women, and there are families. And no government can do anything except through people, and people must look to themselves first. It's our duty to look after ourselves and then, also to look after our neighbour." Technically abstract nouns do not actually exist, people do. And it is people, working hard and paying their taxes, that provides the Welfare State that we have today. Not "society" or "government". That was the point. Mr ddc" Thanks for that, I was vaguely aware of the whole quote and the context, from the speech she made at the time. I used part of it in my dissertation. | |||
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"It was Thatcher who said there was no such thing as society, she actively did all she could to bring that about. What she actually said was: "And, you know, there is no such thing as society. There are individual men and women, and there are families. And no government can do anything except through people, and people must look to themselves first. It's our duty to look after ourselves and then, also to look after our neighbour." Technically abstract nouns do not actually exist, people do. And it is people, working hard and paying their taxes, that provides the Welfare State that we have today. Not "society" or "government". That was the point. Mr ddc Thanks for that, I was vaguely aware of the whole quote and the context, from the speech she made at the time. I used part of it in my dissertation." Just Googled it and it's from a Woman's Own interview! | |||
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"It was Thatcher who said there was no such thing as society, she actively did all she could to bring that about. What she actually said was: "And, you know, there is no such thing as society. There are individual men and women, and there are families. And no government can do anything except through people, and people must look to themselves first. It's our duty to look after ourselves and then, also to look after our neighbour." Technically abstract nouns do not actually exist, people do. And it is people, working hard and paying their taxes, that provides the Welfare State that we have today. Not "society" or "government". That was the point. Mr ddc Thanks for that, I was vaguely aware of the whole quote and the context, from the speech she made at the time. I used part of it in my dissertation. Just Googled it and it's from a Woman's Own interview! " Hence the stress on "family" and "helping one's neighbour". But the context didn't suit the socialists who just wanted to vilify. We walked the Cleveland Way a few weeks ago, reading about the mines, steelworks and alum works that closed over the centuries as they became unprofitable puts it all into perspective. They closed, and the families moved to find jobs elsewhere. There was never any logical reason why the taxpayer should subsidise an industry decimated by Natural Gas, central heating and the greed of union barons. | |||
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" It was a tragedy but it wasn't so one sided ....... Much in the same way the motivation that drove miners who chose to work are not able to be demonised with such sweeping disregard for anyone opinion other than those of the striking miners and their supporters... I am not sweepingly disregarding your opinion, I am attempting to engage in meaningful dialogue. I have laid out my stall in my contention that it was greed that motivated strike breakers. See, I've even taken on board your dislike of the 's' word. However, I cannot see an alternative premises proposed by yourself. As I stated, the whole history of the strike, prior and post, is emotive. Whilst loathe to want to sympathise with strike breakers and *their supporters, I do want to understand them. As I've stated, in my part of the world, I have never had the chance to speak with any of these people, because all were ostracised. " OK just the brief outline of one example of what motivated one strike breaker local to me... A fine man ... respected by everyone who knew him..... popular beyond compare by all his workmates.... Also happens to be the father of a severely disabled child,, a child with a very short life expectancy,,, So good was this man he wanted to make sure that child had everything he could provide to help minimise its suffering during that short life.. To do that he chose to work-on...his only motive was to provide for that child.. House with the child inside daubed in paint scum screamed at him and his family...ostracised... spat on in the street and much-much worse..... all done by the very same people who worked alongside that fine-fine respected man for years... Whose the scum....? Every strike breaker had their own motivation... It just suites the purpose of those with a narrow-mind view too only see thing from one perspective and that is too demonise anyone with an overriding motivations and whose choice didn't fit their gang mentality Every strike breaker had their own reason.. Everyone on both sides lost more than they should .... The whole event was a catastrophic failure......the blame is something all sides should bare ..... | |||
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" House with the child inside daubed in paint scum screamed at him and his family...ostracised... spat on in the street and much-much worse..... all done by the very same people who worked alongside that fine-fine respected man for years... Whose the scum....?" It's those sort of stories that make me question the "community spirit" and "society" that we're led to believe existed in these communities... | |||
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" House with the child inside daubed in paint scum screamed at him and his family...ostracised... spat on in the street and much-much worse..... all done by the very same people who worked alongside that fine-fine respected man for years... Whose the scum....? It's those sort of stories that make me question the "community spirit" and "society" that we're led to believe existed in these communities..." I totally get what you mean, but my instinct and recollection is prior to those dreadful times there was at least some degree of community spirit and of common decency in those areas.... The victims are many on all sides ... | |||
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" House with the child inside daubed in paint scum screamed at him and his family...ostracised... spat on in the street and much-much worse..... all done by the very same people who worked alongside that fine-fine respected man for years... Whose the scum....? It's those sort of stories that make me question the "community spirit" and "society" that we're led to believe existed in these communities... I totally get what you mean, but my instinct and recollection is prior to those dreadful times there was at least some degree of community spirit and of common decency in those areas.... The victims are many on all sides ... " True, I worked closely with two communities at the turn of the millennium. They still had their club, brass band, pantomimes and shows: everything our rural villages had when I was growing up, but lost as they became commuter towns. But at times of hardship, to turn inward and fight so bitterly amongst yourselves, doesn't seem right somehow. The enemy was globalisation and the death of coal as a major fuel source. Not even Canute could have stopped it, though after 1974, Thatcher certainly wasn't going to even try. | |||
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" House with the child inside daubed in paint scum screamed at him and his family...ostracised... spat on in the street and much-much worse..... all done by the very same people who worked alongside that fine-fine respected man for years... Whose the scum....? It's those sort of stories that make me question the "community spirit" and "society" that we're led to believe existed in these communities... I totally get what you mean, but my instinct and recollection is prior to those dreadful times there was at least some degree of community spirit and of common decency in those areas.... The victims are many on all sides ... True, I worked closely with two communities at the turn of the millennium. They still had their club, brass band, pantomimes and shows: everything our rural villages had when I was growing up, but lost as they became commuter towns. But at times of hardship, to turn inward and fight so bitterly amongst yourselves, doesn't seem right somehow. The enemy was globalisation and the death of coal as a major fuel source. Not even Canute could have stopped it, though after 1974, Thatcher certainly wasn't going to even try. " I couldn't agree more... | |||
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" It was a tragedy but it wasn't so one sided ....... Much in the same way the motivation that drove miners who chose to work are not able to be demonised with such sweeping disregard for anyone opinion other than those of the striking miners and their supporters... I am not sweepingly disregarding your opinion, I am attempting to engage in meaningful dialogue. I have laid out my stall in my contention that it was greed that motivated strike breakers. See, I've even taken on board your dislike of the 's' word. However, I cannot see an alternative premises proposed by yourself. As I stated, the whole history of the strike, prior and post, is emotive. Whilst loathe to want to sympathise with strike breakers and *their supporters, I do want to understand them. As I've stated, in my part of the world, I have never had the chance to speak with any of these people, because all were ostracised. OK just the brief outline of one example of what motivated one strike breaker local to me... A fine man ... respected by everyone who knew him..... popular beyond compare by all his workmates.... Also happens to be the father of a severely disabled child,, a child with a very short life expectancy,,, So good was this man he wanted to make sure that child had everything he could provide to help minimise its suffering during that short life.. To do that he chose to work-on...his only motive was to provide for that child.. House with the child inside daubed in paint scum screamed at him and his family...ostracised... spat on in the street and much-much worse..... all done by the very same people who worked alongside that fine-fine respected man for years... Whose the scum....? Every strike breaker had their own motivation... It just suites the purpose of those with a narrow-mind view too only see thing from one perspective and that is too demonise anyone with an overriding motivations and whose choice didn't fit their gang mentality Every strike breaker had their own reason.. Everyone on both sides lost more than they should .... The whole event was a catastrophic failure......the blame is something all sides should bare ..... " Thank you for that clarification and, thankfully, that particular example isn't one I am familiar with. The only scab (using the term correctly, as I see it) in my village was the man I mentioned previously. I am not aware of circumstances such as that you have mentioned locally and all of the villages here within a 20 mile radius were pit villages. We still have a community here, albeit becoming more fragmented as time moves on. As I stated earlier, I have the utmost respect for my own father. He stood by his own convictions and did so with an air of dignity and, was himself an upstanding member of our local community. He Chair of the local Miners Welfare Society when he died, did a lot for charity etc. I know that he would never have allowed damage to property etc as you have exampled. I would never, ever condone that either. I still stand by the adage that 'united we stand, divided we fall' though. The conflicting ideologies of the government of the day, the union leadership left rank and file workers somewhere in between a rock and a hard place. It was fascinating living during that time and equally as fascinating reliving experiences and hearing other people's opinions via this thread. | |||
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" It was a tragedy but it wasn't so one sided ....... Much in the same way the motivation that drove miners who chose to work are not able to be demonised with such sweeping disregard for anyone opinion other than those of the striking miners and their supporters... I am not sweepingly disregarding your opinion, I am attempting to engage in meaningful dialogue. I have laid out my stall in my contention that it was greed that motivated strike breakers. See, I've even taken on board your dislike of the 's' word. However, I cannot see an alternative premises proposed by yourself. As I stated, the whole history of the strike, prior and post, is emotive. Whilst loathe to want to sympathise with strike breakers and *their supporters, I do want to understand them. As I've stated, in my part of the world, I have never had the chance to speak with any of these people, because all were ostracised. OK just the brief outline of one example of what motivated one strike breaker local to me... A fine man ... respected by everyone who knew him..... popular beyond compare by all his workmates.... Also happens to be the father of a severely disabled child,, a child with a very short life expectancy,,, So good was this man he wanted to make sure that child had everything he could provide to help minimise its suffering during that short life.. To do that he chose to work-on...his only motive was to provide for that child.. House with the child inside daubed in paint scum screamed at him and his family...ostracised... spat on in the street and much-much worse..... all done by the very same people who worked alongside that fine-fine respected man for years... Whose the scum....? Every strike breaker had their own motivation... It just suites the purpose of those with a narrow-mind view too only see thing from one perspective and that is too demonise anyone with an overriding motivations and whose choice didn't fit their gang mentality Every strike breaker had their own reason.. Everyone on both sides lost more than they should .... The whole event was a catastrophic failure......the blame is something all sides should bare ..... Thank you for that clarification and, thankfully, that particular example isn't one I am familiar with. The only scab (using the term correctly, as I see it) in my village was the man I mentioned previously. I am not aware of circumstances such as that you have mentioned locally and all of the villages here within a 20 mile radius were pit villages. We still have a community here, albeit becoming more fragmented as time moves on. As I stated earlier, I have the utmost respect for my own father. He stood by his own convictions and did so with an air of dignity and, was himself an upstanding member of our local community. He Chair of the local Miners Welfare Society when he died, did a lot for charity etc. I know that he would never have allowed damage to property etc as you have exampled. I would never, ever condone that either. I still stand by the adage that 'united we stand, divided we fall' though. The conflicting ideologies of the government of the day, the union leadership left rank and file workers somewhere in between a rock and a hard place. It was fascinating living during that time and equally as fascinating reliving experiences and hearing other people's opinions via this thread. " No-one should ever feel forced to follow the mantra of a collective mind-set 
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"While I think remembrance and cultural heritage is incredibly important, the insularity and inward-looking resentment and defeatism still festering and being propogated in some former mining communities does the younger generation in those communities a huge disservice. They're onto a second generation since most of the pits closed, and still blaming Thatcher for all their woes. Remembering and celebrating the pit communities shouldn't be at the expense of fostering ambition, opportunity and futures in those communities now. " | |||
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"There should be no continued cover-up, in a democracy that respects its citizens. The current government stance teats us with contempt. Official inquiry with full public disclosure is the essential approach now." Totally agree as did the majority of the QT (Watford) audience! | |||
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" For me it became more about one mans aim to bring down the government and one woman's aim to destroy the unions which had brought the county to its knees in the late 70's. With hard working families suffering the consequences. " Markham (South Wales) Club is still going, not strongly, but still holding on. Just came from the quiz there, which my team won! Totally agree with that last paragraph. As the song goes: It's the same the whole world over, It's the poor what gets the blame, It's the rich what gets the pleasure, Aint it all a blooming shame?* *Which I'm aware is about the exploitation of vulnerable women by men with money, but I still think it fits! | |||
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" For me it became more about one mans aim to bring down the government and one woman's aim to destroy the unions which had brought the county to its knees in the late 70's. With hard working families suffering the consequences. Markham (South Wales) Club is still going, not strongly, but still holding on. Just came from the quiz there, which my team won! Totally agree with that last paragraph. As the song goes: It's the same the whole world over, It's the poor what gets the blame, It's the rich what gets the pleasure, Aint it all a blooming shame?* *Which I'm aware is about the exploitation of vulnerable women by men with money, but I still think it fits! " Congratulations on your victory. As my location suggests Markham Main Doncaster for me. | |||
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" For me it became more about one mans aim to bring down the government and one woman's aim to destroy the unions which had brought the county to its knees in the late 70's. With hard working families suffering the consequences. Markham (South Wales) Club is still going, not strongly, but still holding on. Just came from the quiz there, which my team won! Totally agree with that last paragraph. As the song goes: It's the same the whole world over, It's the poor what gets the blame, It's the rich what gets the pleasure, Aint it all a blooming shame?* *Which I'm aware is about the exploitation of vulnerable women by men with money, but I still think it fits! Congratulations on your victory. As my location suggests Markham Main Doncaster for me. " Thanks. I've just Googled 'Markham' and can't believe how many places are named thus! I think they may be named after Lord Arthur Markham? | |||
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