FabSwingers.com forum: is it time to rebuild Hadrians Wall?

By *uckscouple2007 OP Couple
over a year ago

Bucks

now the SNP are angling for independence is it not time to finish what the roman's started?

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By *waymanMan
over a year ago

newcastle

"now the SNP are angling for independence is it not time to finish what the roman's started?

Since there's sixty miles of England to the north of it, including my house, you may have revealed a certain geographical and historical weakness on your part there.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"now the SNP are angling for independence is it not time to finish what the roman's started?

Since there's sixty miles of England to the north of it, including my house, you may have revealed a certain geographical and historical weakness on your part there."

could it be moved then?

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By *ustyWoman
over a year ago

inverclyde

def not..... nowt wrong with us north of the border

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"now the SNP are angling for independence is it not time to finish what the roman's started?

Typical English attitude!!!

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By *abioMan
over a year ago

Newcastle and Gateshead

"now the SNP are angling for independence is it not time to finish what the roman's started?

Since there's sixty miles of England to the north of it, including my house, you may have revealed a certain geographical and historical weakness on your part there."

we are basically scotland anyway.... and have more in common than with them doon sooth

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

its good for the scots to rebel,they dont like our goverment so why carnt they have there own , brill

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By *aucy3Couple
over a year ago

glasgow

it was a right shoddy job to start with.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"now the SNP are angling for independence is it not time to finish what the roman's started?

Typical English attitude!!!

"
my thoughts extley

why vote for folk an they moan about it

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By *ouple in LancashireCouple
over a year ago

in Lancashire

Dont think walls are the answer.

But, if the SNP now push for a referendum and its carried etc lots will change in that lovely part of this country.

Funding from Westminster may well be one major factor if the Scottish Parliament has full tax raising powers.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"now the SNP are angling for independence is it not time to finish what the roman's started?

Tshhhh, if you lot had stood yer ground n` not shit mud huts before running off into the Welsh mountains, the Romans wouldn`t have had the need to build it to protect themselves in the first place.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

the SNP has done a brilliant job keeping Scotland moving

only certain areas we cant get rid of the other party's like were i am its always has been labor hold no matter what vote i out in,

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By *etillanteWoman
over a year ago

Only when FMUMA is north of it

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By *ara_and_MJCouple
over a year ago

rochdale

"now the SNP are angling for independence is it not time to finish what the roman's started?

Since there's sixty miles of England to the north of it, including my house, you may have revealed a certain geographical and historical weakness on your part there."

How about the Antonine Wall then?

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By *ara_and_MJCouple
over a year ago

rochdale

"now the SNP are angling for independence is it not time to finish what the roman's started?

Tshhhh, if you lot had stood yer ground n` not shit mud huts before running off into the Welsh mountains, the Romans wouldn`t have had the need to build it to protect themselves in the first place.

It was nice of the Welsh to run off though, made it easy for the Romans to call on us English in Germany to defend them against invaders!

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By *aucy3Couple
over a year ago

glasgow

"now the SNP are angling for independence is it not time to finish what the roman's started?

Since there's sixty miles of England to the north of it, including my house, you may have revealed a certain geographical and historical weakness on your part there.

How about the Antonine Wall then?

thats not a wall,its only a dyke to keep boys balls,out of the garden.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"now the SNP are angling for independence is it not time to finish what the roman's started?

Since there's sixty miles of England to the north of it, including my house, you may have revealed a certain geographical and historical weakness on your part there.

How about the Antonine Wall then?

Now your really gonna confuse em.

Anyway, I thought the only intellegent folk from your part of the country came from Heywood.

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By *LBishCouple
over a year ago

near bury st edmunds

Deffinatly. Only this time with a 50ft electric fence, a very large minefield to the North of it and MG towers every half mile

But seriously, i don't know about the Scottish and welsh voting for independance, i think the English should have a referendum on ending the Union. We have given up the rest of our Empire, might as well let these two parts go there own way.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"now the SNP are angling for independence is it not time to finish what the roman's started?

Since there's sixty miles of England to the north of it, including my house, you may have revealed a certain geographical and historical weakness on your part there.

How about the Antonine Wall then?

Now your really gonna confuse em.

Anyway, I thought the only intellegent folk from your part of the country came from Heywood.

Did you notice how I spelt intelligent? That was for the benefit of the Gauls.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

its all bollocks which ever way u luk at it x they r all owt 4 their sels x

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By *ara_and_MJCouple
over a year ago

rochdale

"now the SNP are angling for independence is it not time to finish what the roman's started?

Since there's sixty miles of England to the north of it, including my house, you may have revealed a certain geographical and historical weakness on your part there.

How about the Antonine Wall then?

Now your really gonna confuse em.

Anyway, I thought the only intellegent folk from your part of the country came from Heywood.

Now you've got that wrong, Heywood is the only part of the area where the locals have tails....

(local joke content)

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Don't know about rebuilding the wall, but why shouldn't we have the government we voted for at last?....after all we suffered at the hands of Thatcher & co for years because the English voted for her!!!

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By *ara_and_MJCouple
over a year ago

rochdale

"Don't know about rebuilding the wall, but why shouldn't we have the government we voted for at last?....after all we suffered at the hands of Thatcher & co for years because the English voted for her!!!

Did we? What percentage of the English voted for her? I certainly never did.

Independence for the South East!!

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

independance will never happen

if if if if if

we were clever when we found our oil - then way other story - but no we said just take it n walk all over us

alex is an arsehole

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

in fact amusing note about alex

he was in my wee town doing some opening blah blah pish

but on the same day the real radio was in town with its fugitive -

for folks not in the know a guy from the radio walks around town - if ya find him and ask - are you the real radio fugitive - you win a cash prize

alex salmond had loads o folks and wee neds running up to him asking are you the real radio fugitive

cos no one knows who you are ya faaaaannnny

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

As all politicians are or end up as useless, corrupt, lying, twats makes little bloody difference who we are governed by!!

Why not stick all their heads on top of the wall, that would put an end to immigration & emigration

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

ps lovely butt by the way cheekykarma

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Now you've got that wrong, Heywood is the only part of the area where the locals have tails....

(local joke content)"

I know, I`m a MONKEY, and I have my own barstool to prove it.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"now the SNP are angling for independence is it not time to finish what the roman's started?

It might be really good if we do. The amount the south subsidizes Scotland by is scandalous.

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By *aucy3Couple
over a year ago

glasgow

"now the SNP are angling for independence is it not time to finish what the roman's started?

It might be really good if we do. The amount the south subsidizes Scotland by is scandalous.

ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha hahaha hahaha ha ha ha ha.

ha ha ha hahahaha haha ha ha.good yin.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"now the SNP are angling for independence is it not time to finish what the roman's started?

It might be really good if we do. The amount the south subsidizes Scotland by is scandalous.

"
. Don't get your logic here. Scotland actually pays the Westminster government way more than it receives back. Has done for years. It's part of the reason Independence is becoming such a viable idea

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By *uckscouple2007 OP Couple
over a year ago

Bucks

" Don't get your logic here. Scotland actually pays the Westminster government way more than it receives back. Has done for years. "

dont think the supply of an ex PM and other cabinet ministers under the previous government counts as payment to westminster ... so please explain?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Deffinatly. Only this time with a 50ft electric fence, a very large minefield to the North of it and MG towers every half mile

Spot on I would vote yes to that

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

" Don't get your logic here. Scotland actually pays the Westminster government way more than it receives back. Has done for years.

dont think the supply of an ex PM and other cabinet ministers under the previous government counts as payment to westminster ... so please explain?"
. Why would two consecutive PMs and Cabinet Ministers be thought of as of monetary value? Scotland sends more to Westminster via taxes from population and businesses and other revenue than it gets back. It's a long held fallacy that England supports Scotland: a check of monetary payments makes this clear. This inequality is at the base of the movement in Scotland for Independence. Why WOULD a 'non-viable' country seek to separate from its 'mighty benefactor'?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Deffinatly. Only this time with a 50ft electric fence, a very large minefield to the North of it and MG towers every half mile

Spot on I would vote yes to that

"
. Lol think you will find England didn't decide to give up any Empire

. The countries etc decided that for themselves.

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By *drianukMan
over a year ago

Spain, Lancs

It would save us a fortune if they went. Can't think how they'd manage without all the subsidy.

We should tell them that we don't want them to go but that if they do go they are on their own.

We'd give them RBS as a leaving gift!

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By *waymanMan
over a year ago

newcastle

"now the SNP are angling for independence is it not time to finish what the roman's started?

Tshhhh, if you lot had stood yer ground n` not shit mud huts before running off into the Welsh mountains, the Romans wouldn`t have had the need to build it to protect themselves in the first place.

Is this a bid for the historical bollocks of the week prize?

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By *stwoCouple
over a year ago

anywhere

Think its a good idea.would help keep the english out.

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By *waymanMan
over a year ago

newcastle

"Deffinatly. Only this time with a 50ft electric fence, a very large minefield to the North of it and MG towers every half mile

Byker is enough of a minefield as it is without you adding to it...

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By *waymanMan
over a year ago

newcastle

"now the SNP are angling for independence is it not time to finish what the roman's started?

Tshhhh, if you lot had stood yer ground n` not shit mud huts before running off into the Welsh mountains, the Romans wouldn`t have had the need to build it to protect themselves in the first place.

It was nice of the Welsh to run off though, made it easy for the Romans to call on us English in Germany to defend them against invaders!

Yet more ahistorical bollocks - you lot aren't covering yourselves in glory here...

Here's a clue - the word 'Welsh' dodn;t come into use until the 7th or 8th centuries. Place name studies always help as well - if you're in Rochdale you might be intrigued by Eccles having a place name that comes from the Cymraeg for church - how did that happen (since the British church is a fourth century development) if the British had fled? Scots nationalists might like to play similar games with place names Ecclefechan, Dumfries, Dunedin (used as a Latin name for Edinburgh) and numerous others...

Advanced readers might want to tackle Gildas and wonder who the British kings who imported the saxons as mercenaries were, if the British had all fled to what the English now call Wales?

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By *etitesaraTV/TS
over a year ago

rochdale

"now the SNP are angling for independence is it not time to finish what the roman's started?

Tshhhh, if you lot had stood yer ground n` not shit mud huts before running off into the Welsh mountains, the Romans wouldn`t have had the need to build it to protect themselves in the first place.

It was nice of the Welsh to run off though, made it easy for the Romans to call on us English in Germany to defend them against invaders!

Yet more ahistorical bollocks - you lot aren't covering yourselves in glory here...

Advanced readers might want to tackle Gildas and wonder who the British kings who imported the saxons as mercenaries were, if the British had all fled to what the English now call Wales?"

Calm down dear, it was a joke!

Welsh is a corruption of the old English word Walesch (probably pronounced with a Germanic 'V' sound)

Whilst many Britons did reatreat into what is now Wales with the increasing encroachment of the Angles and Saxons many simply were absorbed into the new Anglo-Saxon Kingdoms of Mercia, Northumbria, Wessex, East Anglia, Middle Anglia, Kent, Hwicce, Sussex, Essex etc.

With the retreat of the Empire the existing Romano-Britons (along with their less 'Romanised' subjects) did invite Germanic mercenaries to help defend the land against other Germanic raiders such as the Jutes etc. Even in Britannia Inferior the client rulers had effectively been de-militarised and so needed to import such a dangerous idea.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I normally stay away from political threads, but I find the op's opening post, really offensive. I havent read any of the other posts, really dont want to send my blood pressure soaring at this time of the morning!

This is my _iews, and mine alone, the SNP are a bunch of gobshite f**kwits! Alex Salmond is a smary git and Nicola Sturgeon has a face that I would NEVER tire of punching....again and again and again.

Did the SNP win the SPE on policies?

I dont think think so.

Did they win because people are sick to the back teeth of Labour? Or because after the mess of the coalition goverment the LD may as well give up on politics?

So who was left to vote for? No one, so who did people vote for, yip the SNP. Me personally I spoiled my ballot paper, I believe, that if you are registered to vote, you should vote, or be fined, and since there is no abstain option (which I believe there should be), I chose to vote for no one.

Do I believe in or want Independence? NO! When the referendum is held, I will be putting a big X next to no. Not because I cant stand the SNP, but because I believe in the United Kingdom!

Think ive babbled on enough and I really need another coffee.......

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By *LBishCouple
over a year ago

near bury st edmunds

Pewrsonally, i don't give a damn about who would be better off if we broke up the Union. I just want to go back to being proud of being English. Be allowed to fly our own flag, have our own National Anthem.

We managed for centriues well enough before we defeated the welsh and then Scotts, i am sure we can manage without them again.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Just read all the threads, I knew I shouldnt.

Loving the anti Scottish/Welsh tone of it.

What about those of Northern Ireland or has it been forgetten that they have their own assembly? That way you can stick the boot into everyone.

Me, im proud of my SCOTTISH heritage and history. But always 1st and foremost im proud to be BRITISH.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Pewrsonally, i don't give a damn about who would be better off if we broke up the Union. I just want to go back to being proud of being English. Be allowed to fly our own flag, have our own National Anthem.

We managed for centriues well enough before we defeated the welsh and then Scotts, i am sure we can manage without them again."
. Eh, England didn't 'defeat the Scotts'. The Union was voted for by a 'Pairsel of Rogues' to serve their own skins after bankrupting themselves on Darien and being effectively bribed by England and, if I remember right- did England not run out of kings and queens? Was James sixth not Scottish?

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By *etitesaraTV/TS
over a year ago

rochdale

We managed for centriues well enough before we defeated the welsh and then Scotts, i am sure we can manage without them again.. Eh, England didn't 'defeat the Scotts'. The Union was voted for by a 'Pairsel of Rogues' to serve their own skins after bankrupting themselves on Darien and being effectively bribed by England and, if I remember right- did England not run out of kings and queens? Was James sixth not Scottish?"

In fairness, whilst the Scots Nobility did bankrupt themselves over the Darien Affair, the English Govt did all it could to accentuate the process - the 'Rough Wooing' i believe it was called?

Jimmy VI/I was indeed a Scots Stuart and as soon as he was offered the English Throne he ran South and never went back! From what i have read he didn't like the Scots veery much for some reason, could have been to do with the way they treated his mother though.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

God I love FAB Forums. From 'fancy a shag' to analysis and debate of Anglo/Scottish/Celtic history. Magnificent. Anyone seen a Spanish speaking, Irish mercenary?

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By *etitesaraTV/TS
over a year ago

rochdale

You know what's always puzzled me?

The way the Jacobite Wars have been spun into an Anglo-Scottish conflict. It was really a Scottish Civil War that took in part of England and the English body politic.

3/4 of all the troops at Culloden were Scots...

I know a chap who is a Scottish re-enactor of the C17/C18th period. He often upsets his Scots audiences whe he tells them that the worst enemy the Scots ever had were other Scots!

And don't get him started on the 'Braveheart was a documentary crowd' at Bannockburn etc!

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By *etitesaraTV/TS
over a year ago

rochdale

"God I love FAB Forums. From 'fancy a shag' to analysis and debate of Anglo/Scottish/Celtic history. Magnificent. Anyone seen a Spanish speaking, Irish mercenary?

What, the one who taught a French Highlander to fight?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"God I love FAB Forums. From 'fancy a shag' to analysis and debate of Anglo/Scottish/Celtic history. Magnificent. Anyone seen a Spanish speaking, Irish mercenary?

What, the one who taught a French Highlander to fight?

Hehehe. That could be the very same knave

Anyway, if it wasn't for us Monks.............

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Lol this post has to be the funniest I have read for a while. We are all Jock Tamsons' bairns and should all get on together regardless. It's the pc brigade that drive me nuts more than anything.

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By *waymanMan
over a year ago

newcastle

"now the SNP are angling for independence is it not time to finish what the roman's started?

Tshhhh, if you lot had stood yer ground n` not shit mud huts before running off into the Welsh mountains, the Romans wouldn`t have had the need to build it to protect themselves in the first place.

It was nice of the Welsh to run off though, made it easy for the Romans to call on us English in Germany to defend them against invaders!

Yet more ahistorical bollocks - you lot aren't covering yourselves in glory here...

Advanced readers might want to tackle Gildas and wonder who the British kings who imported the saxons as mercenaries were, if the British had all fled to what the English now call Wales?

Calm down dear, it was a joke!

Welsh is a corruption of the old English word Walesch (probably pronounced with a Germanic 'V' sound)

Not sure where you cut and pasted this parcel of bullshit from but the word you're looking for is wealas - it's the old saxon word for foreigner.

You're right about the persistence of the British in the Germanic kingdoms, and their civilizing influence on the saxons who were little better than thugs, but that's a long way from the dim assertion up thread somewhere that the British fled when the Romans arrived - the joy of the Dream of Macsen Wledig is not that a Roman Emperor was British, but that in fourth century Rome being British was a heritage you'd boast of.

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By *etitesaraTV/TS
over a year ago

rochdale

Not going to link as it's too long but there are many spelling variations of the origins of the modern word Welsh and yours is just one of them - Foreigner/other/outsider are all approximations of the meaning.

As for the English/Germanic peoples being 'thugs' you do realise that there were more than a few Germans (including Angles) who sreved in positions of High Command in the armies of the Later Roman Empire during the C4th? Not really something an un-educated and brutish 'thug' could have done, especially when put against the distaste the Romans had for those they considered Barbarian?

Men like Callistus/Ballista who served as Praetorian Prefect and Prefect of Cavalry in the East against the Sassanids,where he defeated the Persians at Soli.

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By *waymanMan
over a year ago

newcastle

"Not going to link as it's too long but there are many spelling variations of the origins of the modern word Welsh and yours is just one of them - Foreigner/other/outsider are all approximations of the meaning.

Men like Callistus/Ballista who served as Praetorian Prefect and Prefect of Cavalry in the East against the Sassanids,where he defeated the Persians at Soli.

This being the interweb I must of course bow to your assertion as if it has some considerable academic merit. I've been reading and studying this stuff for over twenty years and I've never encountered your spelling of the word, whereas the spelling I use is good enough for Rollason, GA Williams, John Morris, Francis Pryor and the like.

As for your assertion about some Germans being very nice chaps who did sterling work for Rome, yes, that's true. I imagine they weren't the kind of chaps who ended up being hired as mercenaries to fight off pirates on the British coast, or who repaid their employers by breaking their contracts and turning on them...

So calling them little better than thugs is a fair shout, and was good enough for Gildas...

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By *etitesaraTV/TS
over a year ago

rochdale

..And Gildas was not at all somewhat biased in his accounts of the time?

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By *waymanMan
over a year ago

newcastle

We managed for centriues well enough before we defeated the welsh and then Scotts, i am sure we can manage without them again."

What would you like as a national anthem?

Incidentally, the Tudors were Welsh - as ever, we won without you even knowing it.

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By *waymanMan
over a year ago

newcastle

"..And Gildas was not at all somewhat biased in his accounts of the time?"

He's significantly closer to events than you or I, so unless you've invented the retrospectoscope you can only accuse him of bias by filtering his account through your cultural biasses. There is absolutely bog all evidence that the saxons were anything other than a bunch of thugs who got lucky - even the Hengist and Horsa myth is evidence for the proposition that they weren't very good at lying and were too stupid to even make up a good alibi for their crimes.

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By *etitesaraTV/TS
over a year ago

rochdale

Also, the Germanic invitees were often promised land in return for their military service as well you know, just as retiring Legionaries were.

Can you really blame peoples like the Angles/Saxons/Jutes etc who were under pressure from Eastern European tribes for seeing a rich and undefended land ready for the taking?

It was a time whe might meant all, if you couldn't hold your land you lost it - exactly as the Angles and Saxons did against their Danish cousins a couple of centuries later.

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By *etitesaraTV/TS
over a year ago

rochdale

"..And Gildas was not at all somewhat biased in his accounts of the time?

All of the writers had ulterior motives, this you know. To baldly state that ALL the Germanic peoples who came over to be thugs is to over-simplify to a ridiculous level and you know it. It does seem as though you have some cultural bias yourself when it comes to this subject, which as you claim to have studied this for two decades you should be on the lookout for.

The Germanic peoples were a warrior race that's true. That they were little more than ignorant thugs is to deny their art, their culture, their artisanship and their complex religion, they were just as advanced as as complex a people as the native Britons, how could they have taken the land if the Britons had been so superior?

The fact that they held onto their lands in the face of Roman expansionism, and were later Commanders of Roman Imperial Troops shows how they were much more than the simple barbarian thugs you wish to see them as.

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By *etitesaraTV/TS
over a year ago

rochdale

We managed for centriues well enough before we defeated the welsh and then Scotts, i am sure we can manage without them again.

What would you like as a national anthem?

Incidentally, the Tudors were Welsh - as ever, we won without you even knowing it."

Hmm, given that Henry VII was also descended from the House of Beaufort and the marriage of John of Gaunt to Katherine Swynford and that Owen Tudor only rose to prominence through his (possibly illegal) marriage to Catherine De Valois you could equally say he was as much Anglo-Norman as much as Welsh.

His most famous descendents being Henry VIII and Elizabeth I were also the ones who had the Plantagenet gene, red hair and foul temper from their mother. In fact if you look at portraits of Henry VII you can see a stunning resemblance to his grandfather Edward IV.

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By *emima_puddlefuckCouple
over a year ago

hexham

"now the SNP are angling for independence is it not time to finish what the roman's started?

Since there's sixty miles of England to the north of it, including my house, you may have revealed a certain geographical and historical weakness on your part there."

i'd quite like to see you answer the purpose of visit question at border control when you came to tynedale

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Only on FAB could you get a lesson in history that was both entertaining, informative and funny! Thanks peeps. xx

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By *umpkinMan
over a year ago

near the sounds of the wimborne quarter jack!

"......................

Whilst many Britons did reatreat into what is now Wales with the increasing encroachment of the Angles and Saxons many simply were absorbed into the new Anglo-Saxon Kingdoms of Mercia .......etc"

Don`t forget the English people who escaped to Wales, North Wales if my history serves me correctly, to escape the Black Death which entered Britain through the port of Weymouth and spread up the the Cranbourne Chase area of Dorset and Wiltshire. It wasn`t just wars that pushed the populations around.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

My tutor in Scots Medieval History asked the question "Did the Normans invade Scotland?". As the majority of people at the time were the commoners, there was very little change for them. Only in the upper echelons would there have been any noticeable difference and we concluded that far from being taken over by invaders, customs etc were assimilated. Shades of the Borg here! lol

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Don`t you just love this place?

Variety (inculuding a few comedians)is the spice of life.

Some of you guys need to get agents.

PRICELESS.

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By *HAGADELICCouple
over a year ago

south london

One thing few people have noticed is that the Labour Party must be terrified - if Scotland became an independent country it would mean there would never be a Labour government in England ever again.

As I undertand it I think that the decision to have a referendum will be one for the Westminster Parliament - the UK Parliament can abolish the Scots parliament.

David Cameron should call Alex Salmond's bluff and say "OK then we'll have a referendum not when you want it Alex - but now in six month's time the UK doesn't need 4 or 5 years of posturing or posing or uncertainty let's get the issue settled"

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Let's face it. The problems of lawful or righteous accession in Scotland and the strife that resulted from it was not new at the time and is nothing new even now.

For Balliol and Bruce read;

Solomon and Adonijah indirectly leading to the fragmentation and defeat of the Kingdom of Israel.

Diarmait Mac Murchada and Ruaidri mac Tairrdelbach Ua Conchobair indirectly leading to Norman settlement and subsequent English involvement in Ireland.

Virtually anyone from any of the Roman Empires

The Anschluss - different circumstances similar results.

Virtually any dispute in the Balkans including the most recent Serbo-Croat hostilities.

And perhaps even the latest troubles in Bahrain thereby leading to Saudi Arabia being invited in.

The common denominator in all of these examples is human nature. Specifically; personal self interest, greed, megalomania, political and military expediency, ego. Nationalism [the last refuge of the scoundrel?]has rarely been a major factor although it usually the reason [or smokescreen] that all the dubious characters involved have expounded to achieve their aims. Add to the mix murder, matricide, patricide, fratricide, infanticide, incest, nepotism, marriages of convenience, dissolutions of convenience, gunboat [or Longboat] diplomacy, duplicity/diplomacy and there, in a nut shell, I would suggest, you have every nations history.

As the song says 'If you know your history.......'

If you don't use T'Interweb like me

'Tis a wondrous thing.

PS Bruce was a sneaky toadying b'stard who got his come uppance but sacrificed his peoples sovereignty in the process.......in my very humble opinion

[Places shield above head and retires from the field under cover of darkness]

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

[Removed by poster at 07/05/11 15:14:04]

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"His most famous descendents being Henry VIII and Elizabeth I were also the ones who had the Plantagenet gene, red hair and foul temper from their mother. In fact if you look at portraits of Henry VII you can see a stunning resemblance to his grandfather Edward IV."

"Oh, war, war, war (fight, fight, fight!) That's all you ever think of, Dickie Plantagenet!"

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

If war where to ever breakout between Enland and Scotland(and not talking about wembley) ..then I hope it's like a reinactment of Braveheart...although without the yanks !!

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"now the SNP are angling for independence is it not time to finish what the roman's started?

It might be really good if we do. The amount the south subsidizes Scotland by is scandalous.

. Don't get your logic here. Scotland actually pays the Westminster government way more than it receives back. Has done for years. It's part of the reason Independence is becoming such a viable idea "

What a load of crap! England has and still is subsidising Scotland. More unemployment, more health issues, a higher drain on the economy. England would be far far better without Scotland. Also Ireland and Wales. It was a big mistake our ancestors crossing the wall and this is what we get for conquering and fucking all them jock women.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I find that quite offensive. May I suggest you research your economic information a little better before rehashing this rubbish? Just because a handful of English say it's so, quite loudly, doesn't make it so.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I find that quite offensive. May I suggest you research your economic information a little better before rehashing this rubbish? Just because a handful of English say it's so, quite loudly, doesn't make it so.

From the BBC website;

"The dread phrase 'Barnett formula' shall issue forth and ancient argument and enmity shall flow.

The formula is used to calculate how much UK money should be allocated to Scotland - a complex sum that results in Scotland receiving more public cash per head than the English.

However, Mr Salmond claims that the arithmetic is unfair because money for the London Olympics, prison building and police and fire service costs are not included in the computation.

Some creative maths arrives at a total owing of 963 million. Throw in a bit for Auld Lang Syne and you get the justification for the Scottish government's request for a one billion pound reflationary package".

As with most things - shades of grey depending on the statistics you use or believe.

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By *etitesaraTV/TS
over a year ago

rochdale

"Oh, war, war, war (fight, fight, fight!) That's all you ever think of, Dickie Plantagenet!"

Well, i AM a medieval re-enactor specialising in the Wars of the Roses!!

Would be a bit boring if we couldn't wallop each other every other weekend!

P.S. Yes, the Scots were involved in that too!

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

From the BBC website;

"The dread phrase 'Barnett formula' shall issue forth and ancient argument and enmity shall flow.

The formula is used to calculate how much UK money should be allocated to Scotland - a complex sum that results in Scotland receiving more public cash per head than the English.

However, Mr Salmond claims that the arithmetic is unfair because money for the London Olympics, prison building and police and fire service costs are not included in the computation.

As with most things - shades of grey depending on the statistics you use or believe."
. It's truly said there are lies, damned lies and statistics

. However, the point being made was that Scotland gets out more than it pays in. THAT's the bit that's wrong. Remember too, as far s the Barnett stuff goes, Scotland's a. Much more rural country than England, with the expense that entails

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Well hopefully they'll only put the clock back in winter in scotland !

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By *waymanMan
over a year ago

newcastle

"..And Gildas was not at all somewhat biased in his accounts of the time?

Of course, my cultural biasses are completely unknown to me, whereas yours are non existent. Catch yourself on. You've deliberately conflated the small time thugs who destroyed the ruling families of Britain with serious Roman figures from Germany as if they were one and the same. They weren't.

Of course Gildas had a motive; he was literate, a Christian and a product of a society rich enough to employ teachers, poets, scribes and priests. The saxons delivered a wilderness, the cultural equivalent of allowing football hooligans loose in a library. His grief, and his anger at the Britons who allowed this to happen drips from every line of his writing. It doesn't make him an unreliable historian however, and it doesn't make him a liar. In that respect you're almost certainly guilty of anachronism, of assuming Gildas would be as unreliable as modern historians can be when they produce propaganda as history.

As for your question about how the saxons succeeded, it's as obvious as your non existent biasses. The British had enjoyed four centuries as cadet members of the Roman world; they were used to a complex division of labour, a money economy where soldiers, and their loyalty to the Roman system, could be bought. The breakdown of the Roman system left them naked before a deluge. That they lasted as long as they did was a minor miracle.

One final thought; if the saxon pagan religion was so complex and valuable, how were they so easily converted to christianity?

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By *waymanMan
over a year ago

newcastle

"......................

Whilst many Britons did reatreat into what is now Wales with the increasing encroachment of the Angles and Saxons many simply were absorbed into the new Anglo-Saxon Kingdoms of Mercia .......etc

Little England is generally defined as the area around Tenby, although these days you find whiny scouse pensioners all along the Costa Geriatrica in the north, and all sorts of English political reprobates acting as white settlers in mid wales.

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By *waymanMan
over a year ago

newcastle

We managed for centriues well enough before we defeated the welsh and then Scotts, i am sure we can manage without them again.

What would you like as a national anthem?

Incidentally, the Tudors were Welsh - as ever, we won without you even knowing it.

So were the Tudors Welsh or not? Only, Tudor is a Welsh name, and the Tudors clung to it, and their heritage.

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By *etitesaraTV/TS
over a year ago

rochdale

It does seem there is a strong current of anti-English, anti-Saxon venom in your somewhat revisionist historical _iewpoints.

The Foederati were hired to defend a land gone soft and dependent on its Imperial rulers for defence, what use are poets when the world is crashing down around you?

To claim the Germanic peoples brought a cultural wilderness is simply ignorant and betrays your bias. Just because a different culture came, does not make it any less than the one that existed amongst the Britons.

Are you honestly stating that the Angles/Jutes/Saxons had no art, no poetry, no artisanship, no learning and no culture?

These people had a complex system of law, one that still shows in our system today, hardly the mark of barbarians.

I think you are allowing your - quite obvious - distaste for anything culturally not Welsh that you are deliberately closing your eyes to it.

Your post about English political reprobates shows your bigotry quite openly i think.

History is not open to interpretation thats for sure but if you - as you claim - are a student of such you have a duty to approach the subject with an open mind.

As for Christianity, did the 'English' as they became very quickly adopt the faith? Did they adopt it any quicker than the native Britons who also had a rich and intricate belief system?

All we have to do is look at how Christianity is different in different parts of the British Isles and we see that it incorporates certain cultural traits from the original pagan peoples - Easter is a case in point, being the festival of Eostre (sp?) the Saxon goddess of fertility. These signs show us that Christianity was absorbed fairly slowly over a matter of decades, even centuries by both the Anglo -Saxons and the Britons.

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By *etitesaraTV/TS
over a year ago

rochdale

We managed for centriues well enough before we defeated the welsh and then Scotts, i am sure we can manage without them again.

What would you like as a national anthem?

Incidentally, the Tudors were Welsh - as ever, we won without you even knowing it.

So were the Tudors Welsh or not? Only, Tudor is a Welsh name, and the Tudors clung to it, and their heritage."

They did, but the claim to the throne was through the English line was it not?

If the 'Welsh' won as you claimed above, why were the Laws in Wales Acts put through by that scion of Wales Henry VIII?

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By *waymanMan
over a year ago

newcastle

"It does seem there is a strong current of anti-English, anti-Saxon venom in your somewhat revisionist historical _iewpoints.

The Foederati were hired to defend a land gone soft and dependent on its Imperial rulers for defence, what use are poets when the world is crashing down around you?

Are you honestly stating that the Angles/Jutes/Saxons had no art, no poetry, no artisanship, no learning and no culture?

These people had a complex system of law, one that still shows in our system today, hardly the mark of barbarians.

I think you are allowing your - quite obvious - distaste for anything culturally not Welsh that you are deliberately closing your eyes to it.

Your post about English political reprobates shows your bigotry quite openly i think.

History is not open to interpretation thats for sure but if you - as you claim - are a student of such you have a duty to approach the subject with an open mind.

As for Christianity, did the 'English' as they became very quickly adopt the faith? Did they adopt it any quicker than the native Britons who also had a rich and intricate belief system?

You want to defend scum like Nick Griffin acting as white settlers in Wales? Rumour has it he's had a fireproof letterbox fitted in case Meibion come calling...

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By *etitesaraTV/TS
over a year ago

rochdale

Also, if these 'thugs' were so 'small time' as you so obviously wish to believe, how did they defeat these great ruling families of the Britons, with all their wealth and ability to hire fighting men?