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"Objection your honour - leading the witness" It does contain a conditional clause.  | |||
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"Objection your honour - leading the witness It does contain a conditional clause. "Why should they if you take into account some of taxes like vat that our government says is set by European community how come ifyou live in Paris but holiday here when you go back you can claim back the vat you paid here if it is in line with Europe why do we pay more for everything so why can't we leave oh yeah like with Scotland it will cost more even though the infra structure already in place and we already pay more in vat | |||
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"Objection your honour - leading the witness It does contain a conditional clause. "I would also challenge the implication that young people aren't already disenfranchised. I think general interest in politics is at an all time low if voter turnout is anything to go by. It won't be the end of the world if we leave. I think we'd be better off in a reformed europe and I remain optimistic that can be achieved. In the most probable scenario; we'll vote to stay this time (4/11 latest odds) but our attempt to reform will fail and the EU will break up before we need another referendum anyway. Then we'll form new union with some other countries and restart the cycle again... | |||
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"Objection your honour - leading the witness It does contain a conditional clause.
I would also challenge the implication that young people aren't already disenfranchised. I think general interest in politics is at an all time low if voter turnout is anything to go by.
It won't be the end of the world if we leave. I think we'd be better off in a reformed europe and I remain optimistic that can be achieved.
In the most probable scenario; we'll vote to stay this time (4/11 latest odds) but our attempt to reform will fail and the EU will break up before we need another referendum anyway. Then we'll form new union with some other countries and restart the cycle again... "Good points - though i think the EU will be forced to reformulate itself quite drastically and will do so. | |||
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"....but in reference to your original point OP, I think many young people (and many educated, urban and liberal people) will be left utterly bewildered by a Leave vote on Friday. I'm not sure we could call it disenfranchised though." This | |||
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"Objection your honour - leading the witness It does contain a conditional clause.
I would also challenge the implication that young people aren't already disenfranchised. I think general interest in politics is at an all time low if voter turnout is anything to go by.
It won't be the end of the world if we leave. I think we'd be better off in a reformed europe and I remain optimistic that can be achieved.
In the most probable scenario; we'll vote to stay this time (4/11 latest odds) but our attempt to reform will fail and the EU will break up before we need another referendum anyway. Then we'll form new union with some other countries and restart the cycle again...
Good points - though i think the EU will be forced to reformulate itself quite drastically and will do so."But did you say that about the Romans Empire, the Ottoman Empire, the WW2 allies, the Latin Monetary Union or every other pan-national collaboration that has risen and fallen? If they are serious about saving the EU they need to scrap the Euro which is, always has been and always will be a clusterfuck. Then they need to boot out Greece which is, hasn't always been but will always be a clusterfuck. | |||
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"Objection your honour - leading the witness It does contain a conditional clause.
I would also challenge the implication that young people aren't already disenfranchised. I think general interest in politics is at an all time low if voter turnout is anything to go by.
It won't be the end of the world if we leave. I think we'd be better off in a reformed europe and I remain optimistic that can be achieved.
In the most probable scenario; we'll vote to stay this time (4/11 latest odds) but our attempt to reform will fail and the EU will break up before we need another referendum anyway. Then we'll form new union with some other countries and restart the cycle again...
Good points - though i think the EU will be forced to reformulate itself quite drastically and will do so.
But did you say that about the Romans Empire, the Ottoman Empire, the WW2 allies, the Latin Monetary Union or every other pan-national collaboration that has risen and fallen?
If they are serious about saving the EU they need to scrap the Euro which is, always has been and always will be a clusterfuck. Then they need to boot out Greece which is, hasn't always been but will always be a clusterfuck. "I think your last point is rather clumsy. | |||
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"Objection your honour - leading the witness It does contain a conditional clause.
I would also challenge the implication that young people aren't already disenfranchised. I think general interest in politics is at an all time low if voter turnout is anything to go by.
It won't be the end of the world if we leave. I think we'd be better off in a reformed europe and I remain optimistic that can be achieved.
In the most probable scenario; we'll vote to stay this time (4/11 latest odds) but our attempt to reform will fail and the EU will break up before we need another referendum anyway. Then we'll form new union with some other countries and restart the cycle again...
Good points - though i think the EU will be forced to reformulate itself quite drastically and will do so.
But did you say that about the Romans Empire, the Ottoman Empire, the WW2 allies, the Latin Monetary Union or every other pan-national collaboration that has risen and fallen?
If they are serious about saving the EU they need to scrap the Euro which is, always has been and always will be a clusterfuck. Then they need to boot out Greece which is, hasn't always been but will always be a clusterfuck.
I think your last point is rather clumsy."Greece or the Euro? | |||
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"Objection your honour - leading the witness It does contain a conditional clause.
I would also challenge the implication that young people aren't already disenfranchised. I think general interest in politics is at an all time low if voter turnout is anything to go by.
It won't be the end of the world if we leave. I think we'd be better off in a reformed europe and I remain optimistic that can be achieved.
In the most probable scenario; we'll vote to stay this time (4/11 latest odds) but our attempt to reform will fail and the EU will break up before we need another referendum anyway. Then we'll form new union with some other countries and restart the cycle again...
Good points - though i think the EU will be forced to reformulate itself quite drastically and will do so.
But did you say that about the Romans Empire, the Ottoman Empire, the WW2 allies, the Latin Monetary Union or every other pan-national collaboration that has risen and fallen?
If they are serious about saving the EU they need to scrap the Euro which is, always has been and always will be a clusterfuck. Then they need to boot out Greece which is, hasn't always been but will always be a clusterfuck.
I think your last point is rather clumsy.
Greece or the Euro? "Greece I disagree with your point on the Euro but I can totally see why you have that opinion. However to write Greece off as a clusterfuck hereafter, even now, is not really taking into consideration the facts of what got Greece where it is (note, what we hear is only a tiny part of the story) where it actually is now and where it is going. I don't have all the facts either but I know enough Greeks to know that this image we have of a country where everyone retires at 35 and no one pays tax is far from the truth. | |||
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"Objection your honour - leading the witness It does contain a conditional clause.
I would also challenge the implication that young people aren't already disenfranchised. I think general interest in politics is at an all time low if voter turnout is anything to go by.
It won't be the end of the world if we leave. I think we'd be better off in a reformed europe and I remain optimistic that can be achieved.
In the most probable scenario; we'll vote to stay this time (4/11 latest odds) but our attempt to reform will fail and the EU will break up before we need another referendum anyway. Then we'll form new union with some other countries and restart the cycle again...
Good points - though i think the EU will be forced to reformulate itself quite drastically and will do so.
But did you say that about the Romans Empire, the Ottoman Empire, the WW2 allies, the Latin Monetary Union or every other pan-national collaboration that has risen and fallen?
If they are serious about saving the EU they need to scrap the Euro which is, always has been and always will be a clusterfuck. Then they need to boot out Greece which is, hasn't always been but will always be a clusterfuck.
I think your last point is rather clumsy.
Greece or the Euro?
Greece
I disagree with your point on the Euro but I can totally see why you have that opinion.
However to write Greece off as a clusterfuck hereafter, even now, is not really taking into consideration the facts of what got Greece where it is (note, what we hear is only a tiny part of the story) where it actually is now and where it is going.
I don't have all the facts either but I know enough Greeks to know that this image we have of a country where everyone retires at 35 and no one pays tax is far from the truth."Well I dont have all the facts on Greece either so it's just an opinion! What I do know is that if they'd presented their finances honestly then they wouldn't have got into the EU in the first place! Personally I have been there since the crisis and just found it beyond redemption. Toxic political system, toxic work culture and no real economy to speak of. It's kinder for everyone involved if they leave, including themselves. | |||
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"In a world where global cooperation and building closer ties is the best way to deal with the not insignificant problems facing us, an isolationist stance will be difficult to explain to the generations who have to pick up the pieces and work with the decisions of an elderly electorate who are both short sighted and selfish. " pretty much this.. | |||
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"Will young voters feel disenfranchised if they see their future prospects go up sh(t creek, following an exit vote by mostly older people? " Most younger people seem to neither know or care whats happening too busy on faceache telling each other what rubbish they had for lunch. | |||
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"Will young voters feel disenfranchised if they see their future prospects go up sh(t creek, following an exit vote by mostly older people? Most younger people seem to neither know or care whats happening too busy on faceache telling each other what rubbish they had for lunch." Most old people either don't know or can't remember what their opinion is because they are too busy playing online bingo or discussing hip replacements. | |||
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"Will young voters feel disenfranchised if they see their future prospects go up sh(t creek, following an exit vote by mostly older people? Most younger people seem to neither know or care whats happening too busy on faceache telling each other what rubbish they had for lunch. totally correct,now whens my new hip booked in Most old people either don't know or can't remember what their opinion is because they are too busy playing online bingo or discussing hip replacements. " | |||
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"Will young voters feel disenfranchised if they see their future prospects go up sh(t creek, following an exit vote by mostly older people? Most younger people seem to neither know or care whats happening too busy on faceache telling each other what rubbish they had for lunch Most old people either don't know or can't remember what their opinion is because they are too busy playing online bingo or discussing hip replacements. " Priceless comeback | |||
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"Will young voters feel disenfranchised if they see their future prospects go up sh(t creek, following an exit vote by mostly older people? Most younger people seem to neither know or care whats happening too busy on faceache telling each other what rubbish they had for lunch." That really helps. Because young people use something you are too old and grumpy to understand then they have no ability to understand anything else. Brilliant. More reasons why the franchise should be removed from anyone over 60. You are all too busy being racist and proclaiming it was better in your day. | |||
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"Will young voters feel disenfranchised if they see their future prospects go up sh(t creek, following an exit vote by mostly older people? " This has been the result of every election I've voted in. | |||
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"Objection your honour - leading the witness It does contain a conditional clause.
I would also challenge the implication that young people aren't already disenfranchised. I think general interest in politics is at an all time low if voter turnout is anything to go by.
It won't be the end of the world if we leave. I think we'd be better off in a reformed europe and I remain optimistic that can be achieved.
In the most probable scenario; we'll vote to stay this time (4/11 latest odds) but our attempt to reform will fail and the EU will break up before we need another referendum anyway. Then we'll form new union with some other countries and restart the cycle again...
Good points - though i think the EU will be forced to reformulate itself quite drastically and will do so.
But did you say that about the Romans Empire, the Ottoman Empire, the WW2 allies, the Latin Monetary Union or every other pan-national collaboration that has risen and fallen?
If they are serious about saving the EU they need to scrap the Euro which is, always has been and always will be a clusterfuck. Then they need to boot out Greece which is, hasn't always been but will always be a clusterfuck.
I think your last point is rather clumsy.
Greece or the Euro?
Greece
I disagree with your point on the Euro but I can totally see why you have that opinion.
However to write Greece off as a clusterfuck hereafter, even now, is not really taking into consideration the facts of what got Greece where it is (note, what we hear is only a tiny part of the story) where it actually is now and where it is going.
I don't have all the facts either but I know enough Greeks to know that this image we have of a country where everyone retires at 35 and no one pays tax is far from the truth.
Well I dont have all the facts on Greece either so it's just an opinion!
What I do know is that if they'd presented their finances honestly then they wouldn't have got into the EU in the first place!
Personally I have been there since the crisis and just found it beyond redemption. Toxic political system, toxic work culture and no real economy to speak of.
It's kinder for everyone involved if they leave, including themselves. "Fair enough but as you said, your opinion is borne of ignorance. Therefore should a responsible person know when they don't know what they are talking about and talk about something else instead? | |||
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"Objection your honour - leading the witness It does contain a conditional clause.
I would also challenge the implication that young people aren't already disenfranchised. I think general interest in politics is at an all time low if voter turnout is anything to go by.
It won't be the end of the world if we leave. I think we'd be better off in a reformed europe and I remain optimistic that can be achieved.
In the most probable scenario; we'll vote to stay this time (4/11 latest odds) but our attempt to reform will fail and the EU will break up before we need another referendum anyway. Then we'll form new union with some other countries and restart the cycle again...
Good points - though i think the EU will be forced to reformulate itself quite drastically and will do so.
But did you say that about the Romans Empire, the Ottoman Empire, the WW2 allies, the Latin Monetary Union or every other pan-national collaboration that has risen and fallen?
If they are serious about saving the EU they need to scrap the Euro which is, always has been and always will be a clusterfuck. Then they need to boot out Greece which is, hasn't always been but will always be a clusterfuck.
I think your last point is rather clumsy.
Greece or the Euro?
Greece
I disagree with your point on the Euro but I can totally see why you have that opinion.
However to write Greece off as a clusterfuck hereafter, even now, is not really taking into consideration the facts of what got Greece where it is (note, what we hear is only a tiny part of the story) where it actually is now and where it is going.
I don't have all the facts either but I know enough Greeks to know that this image we have of a country where everyone retires at 35 and no one pays tax is far from the truth.
Well I dont have all the facts on Greece either so it's just an opinion!
What I do know is that if they'd presented their finances honestly then they wouldn't have got into the EU in the first place!
Personally I have been there since the crisis and just found it beyond redemption. Toxic political system, toxic work culture and no real economy to speak of.
It's kinder for everyone involved if they leave, including themselves.
Fair enough but as you said, your opinion is borne of ignorance. Therefore should a responsible person know when they don't know what they are talking about and talk about something else instead?"Not ignorance, it's based mainly on an anecdotal experience. I'm well travelled and I've honestly never seen an economy worse than theirs that wasn't communist. It's a fact that their government lied their way into membership in the first place. Now if I sneak into the England game later without a valid ticket then I don't expect much sympathy from the crowd if I get ejected from the stadium!! I'm not sure many europeans feel that Greece have helped the EU and currently I doubt many Greeks are glad they adopted that currency either so I didn't think it was too contentious. | |||
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"Objection your honour - leading the witness It does contain a conditional clause.
I would also challenge the implication that young people aren't already disenfranchised. I think general interest in politics is at an all time low if voter turnout is anything to go by.
It won't be the end of the world if we leave. I think we'd be better off in a reformed europe and I remain optimistic that can be achieved.
In the most probable scenario; we'll vote to stay this time (4/11 latest odds) but our attempt to reform will fail and the EU will break up before we need another referendum anyway. Then we'll form new union with some other countries and restart the cycle again...
Good points - though i think the EU will be forced to reformulate itself quite drastically and will do so.
But did you say that about the Romans Empire, the Ottoman Empire, the WW2 allies, the Latin Monetary Union or every other pan-national collaboration that has risen and fallen?
If they are serious about saving the EU they need to scrap the Euro which is, always has been and always will be a clusterfuck. Then they need to boot out Greece which is, hasn't always been but will always be a clusterfuck.
I think your last point is rather clumsy.
Greece or the Euro?
Greece
I disagree with your point on the Euro but I can totally see why you have that opinion.
However to write Greece off as a clusterfuck hereafter, even now, is not really taking into consideration the facts of what got Greece where it is (note, what we hear is only a tiny part of the story) where it actually is now and where it is going.
I don't have all the facts either but I know enough Greeks to know that this image we have of a country where everyone retires at 35 and no one pays tax is far from the truth.
Well I dont have all the facts on Greece either so it's just an opinion!
What I do know is that if they'd presented their finances honestly then they wouldn't have got into the EU in the first place!
Personally I have been there since the crisis and just found it beyond redemption. Toxic political system, toxic work culture and no real economy to speak of.
It's kinder for everyone involved if they leave, including themselves.
Fair enough but as you said, your opinion is borne of ignorance. Therefore should a responsible person know when they don't know what they are talking about and talk about something else instead?
Not ignorance, it's based mainly on an anecdotal experience. I'm well travelled and I've honestly never seen an economy worse than theirs that wasn't communist.
It's a fact that their government lied their way into membership in the first place. Now if I sneak into the England game later without a valid ticket then I don't expect much sympathy from the crowd if I get ejected from the stadium!!
I'm not sure many europeans feel that Greece have helped the EU and currently I doubt many Greeks are glad they adopted that currency either so I didn't think it was too contentious. "I suggest it is rather contentious to say it will always be a clusterfuck. That there is no way out and the country is forever doomed. Also not sure if we are best placed to judge the state of economies. I suggest it probably takes a little more knowledge and expertise that we have here at Fab. | |||
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"Objection your honour - leading the witness It does contain a conditional clause.
I would also challenge the implication that young people aren't already disenfranchised. I think general interest in politics is at an all time low if voter turnout is anything to go by.
It won't be the end of the world if we leave. I think we'd be better off in a reformed europe and I remain optimistic that can be achieved.
In the most probable scenario; we'll vote to stay this time (4/11 latest odds) but our attempt to reform will fail and the EU will break up before we need another referendum anyway. Then we'll form new union with some other countries and restart the cycle again...
Good points - though i think the EU will be forced to reformulate itself quite drastically and will do so.
But did you say that about the Romans Empire, the Ottoman Empire, the WW2 allies, the Latin Monetary Union or every other pan-national collaboration that has risen and fallen?
If they are serious about saving the EU they need to scrap the Euro which is, always has been and always will be a clusterfuck. Then they need to boot out Greece which is, hasn't always been but will always be a clusterfuck.
I think your last point is rather clumsy.
Greece or the Euro?
Greece
I disagree with your point on the Euro but I can totally see why you have that opinion.
However to write Greece off as a clusterfuck hereafter, even now, is not really taking into consideration the facts of what got Greece where it is (note, what we hear is only a tiny part of the story) where it actually is now and where it is going.
I don't have all the facts either but I know enough Greeks to know that this image we have of a country where everyone retires at 35 and no one pays tax is far from the truth.
Well I dont have all the facts on Greece either so it's just an opinion!
What I do know is that if they'd presented their finances honestly then they wouldn't have got into the EU in the first place!
Personally I have been there since the crisis and just found it beyond redemption. Toxic political system, toxic work culture and no real economy to speak of.
It's kinder for everyone involved if they leave, including themselves.
Fair enough but as you said, your opinion is borne of ignorance. Therefore should a responsible person know when they don't know what they are talking about and talk about something else instead?
Not ignorance, it's based mainly on an anecdotal experience. I'm well travelled and I've honestly never seen an economy worse than theirs that wasn't communist.
It's a fact that their government lied their way into membership in the first place. Now if I sneak into the England game later without a valid ticket then I don't expect much sympathy from the crowd if I get ejected from the stadium!!
I'm not sure many europeans feel that Greece have helped the EU and currently I doubt many Greeks are glad they adopted that currency either so I didn't think it was too contentious.
I suggest it is rather contentious to say it will always be a clusterfuck. That there is no way out and the country is forever doomed.
Also not sure if we are best placed to judge the state of economies. I suggest it probably takes a little more knowledge and expertise that we have here at Fab."I'd love to meet the economist who currently judges Greece as a successful economy!! I can't personally see how Greece can get out of this hole with the Euro as their currency, EU membership and their debt burden. I made it clear that's just an opinion and nobody is obligated to agree with me. I'm sure the Greek people would love to hear the counter arguement that contains cake and eating it. But I am not at all ignorant on the subject of economics. | |||
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"Objection your honour - leading the witness It does contain a conditional clause.
I would also challenge the implication that young people aren't already disenfranchised. I think general interest in politics is at an all time low if voter turnout is anything to go by.
It won't be the end of the world if we leave. I think we'd be better off in a reformed europe and I remain optimistic that can be achieved.
In the most probable scenario; we'll vote to stay this time (4/11 latest odds) but our attempt to reform will fail and the EU will break up before we need another referendum anyway. Then we'll form new union with some other countries and restart the cycle again...
Good points - though i think the EU will be forced to reformulate itself quite drastically and will do so.
But did you say that about the Romans Empire, the Ottoman Empire, the WW2 allies, the Latin Monetary Union or every other pan-national collaboration that has risen and fallen?
If they are serious about saving the EU they need to scrap the Euro which is, always has been and always will be a clusterfuck. Then they need to boot out Greece which is, hasn't always been but will always be a clusterfuck.
I think your last point is rather clumsy.
Greece or the Euro?
Greece
I disagree with your point on the Euro but I can totally see why you have that opinion.
However to write Greece off as a clusterfuck hereafter, even now, is not really taking into consideration the facts of what got Greece where it is (note, what we hear is only a tiny part of the story) where it actually is now and where it is going.
I don't have all the facts either but I know enough Greeks to know that this image we have of a country where everyone retires at 35 and no one pays tax is far from the truth.
Well I dont have all the facts on Greece either so it's just an opinion!
What I do know is that if they'd presented their finances honestly then they wouldn't have got into the EU in the first place!
Personally I have been there since the crisis and just found it beyond redemption. Toxic political system, toxic work culture and no real economy to speak of.
It's kinder for everyone involved if they leave, including themselves.
Fair enough but as you said, your opinion is borne of ignorance. Therefore should a responsible person know when they don't know what they are talking about and talk about something else instead?
Not ignorance, it's based mainly on an anecdotal experience. I'm well travelled and I've honestly never seen an economy worse than theirs that wasn't communist.
It's a fact that their government lied their way into membership in the first place. Now if I sneak into the England game later without a valid ticket then I don't expect much sympathy from the crowd if I get ejected from the stadium!!
I'm not sure many europeans feel that Greece have helped the EU and currently I doubt many Greeks are glad they adopted that currency either so I didn't think it was too contentious.
I suggest it is rather contentious to say it will always be a clusterfuck. That there is no way out and the country is forever doomed.
Also not sure if we are best placed to judge the state of economies. I suggest it probably takes a little more knowledge and expertise that we have here at Fab.
I'd love to meet the economist who currently judges Greece as a successful economy!!
I can't personally see how Greece can get out of this hole with the Euro as their currency, EU membership and their debt burden.
I made it clear that's just an opinion and nobody is obligated to agree with me. I'm sure the Greek people would love to hear the counter arguement that contains cake and eating it.
But I am not at all ignorant on the subject of economics."It is not a binary game. The options are more varied than "currently successful" and "fucked forever" Countries have been in worse straits than this and come out the other side. | |||
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"Objection your honour - leading the witness It does contain a conditional clause.
I would also challenge the implication that young people aren't already disenfranchised. I think general interest in politics is at an all time low if voter turnout is anything to go by.
It won't be the end of the world if we leave. I think we'd be better off in a reformed europe and I remain optimistic that can be achieved.
In the most probable scenario; we'll vote to stay this time (4/11 latest odds) but our attempt to reform will fail and the EU will break up before we need another referendum anyway. Then we'll form new union with some other countries and restart the cycle again...
Good points - though i think the EU will be forced to reformulate itself quite drastically and will do so.
But did you say that about the Romans Empire, the Ottoman Empire, the WW2 allies, the Latin Monetary Union or every other pan-national collaboration that has risen and fallen?
If they are serious about saving the EU they need to scrap the Euro which is, always has been and always will be a clusterfuck. Then they need to boot out Greece which is, hasn't always been but will always be a clusterfuck.
I think your last point is rather clumsy.
Greece or the Euro?
Greece
I disagree with your point on the Euro but I can totally see why you have that opinion.
However to write Greece off as a clusterfuck hereafter, even now, is not really taking into consideration the facts of what got Greece where it is (note, what we hear is only a tiny part of the story) where it actually is now and where it is going.
I don't have all the facts either but I know enough Greeks to know that this image we have of a country where everyone retires at 35 and no one pays tax is far from the truth.
Well I dont have all the facts on Greece either so it's just an opinion!
What I do know is that if they'd presented their finances honestly then they wouldn't have got into the EU in the first place!
Personally I have been there since the crisis and just found it beyond redemption. Toxic political system, toxic work culture and no real economy to speak of.
It's kinder for everyone involved if they leave, including themselves.
Fair enough but as you said, your opinion is borne of ignorance. Therefore should a responsible person know when they don't know what they are talking about and talk about something else instead?
Not ignorance, it's based mainly on an anecdotal experience. I'm well travelled and I've honestly never seen an economy worse than theirs that wasn't communist.
It's a fact that their government lied their way into membership in the first place. Now if I sneak into the England game later without a valid ticket then I don't expect much sympathy from the crowd if I get ejected from the stadium!!
I'm not sure many europeans feel that Greece have helped the EU and currently I doubt many Greeks are glad they adopted that currency either so I didn't think it was too contentious.
I suggest it is rather contentious to say it will always be a clusterfuck. That there is no way out and the country is forever doomed.
Also not sure if we are best placed to judge the state of economies. I suggest it probably takes a little more knowledge and expertise that we have here at Fab.
I'd love to meet the economist who currently judges Greece as a successful economy!!
I can't personally see how Greece can get out of this hole with the Euro as their currency, EU membership and their debt burden.
I made it clear that's just an opinion and nobody is obligated to agree with me. I'm sure the Greek people would love to hear the counter arguement that contains cake and eating it.
But I am not at all ignorant on the subject of economics.
It is not a binary game. The options are more varied than "currently successful" and "fucked forever"
Countries have been in worse straits than this and come out the other side. "Yup but I bet they had their own currency!! | |||
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"Objection your honour - leading the witness It does contain a conditional clause.
I would also challenge the implication that young people aren't already disenfranchised. I think general interest in politics is at an all time low if voter turnout is anything to go by.
It won't be the end of the world if we leave. I think we'd be better off in a reformed europe and I remain optimistic that can be achieved.
In the most probable scenario; we'll vote to stay this time (4/11 latest odds) but our attempt to reform will fail and the EU will break up before we need another referendum anyway. Then we'll form new union with some other countries and restart the cycle again...
Good points - though i think the EU will be forced to reformulate itself quite drastically and will do so.
But did you say that about the Romans Empire, the Ottoman Empire, the WW2 allies, the Latin Monetary Union or every other pan-national collaboration that has risen and fallen?
If they are serious about saving the EU they need to scrap the Euro which is, always has been and always will be a clusterfuck. Then they need to boot out Greece which is, hasn't always been but will always be a clusterfuck.
I think your last point is rather clumsy.
Greece or the Euro?
Greece
I disagree with your point on the Euro but I can totally see why you have that opinion.
However to write Greece off as a clusterfuck hereafter, even now, is not really taking into consideration the facts of what got Greece where it is (note, what we hear is only a tiny part of the story) where it actually is now and where it is going.
I don't have all the facts either but I know enough Greeks to know that this image we have of a country where everyone retires at 35 and no one pays tax is far from the truth.
Well I dont have all the facts on Greece either so it's just an opinion!
What I do know is that if they'd presented their finances honestly then they wouldn't have got into the EU in the first place!
Personally I have been there since the crisis and just found it beyond redemption. Toxic political system, toxic work culture and no real economy to speak of.
It's kinder for everyone involved if they leave, including themselves.
Fair enough but as you said, your opinion is borne of ignorance. Therefore should a responsible person know when they don't know what they are talking about and talk about something else instead?
Not ignorance, it's based mainly on an anecdotal experience. I'm well travelled and I've honestly never seen an economy worse than theirs that wasn't communist.
It's a fact that their government lied their way into membership in the first place. Now if I sneak into the England game later without a valid ticket then I don't expect much sympathy from the crowd if I get ejected from the stadium!!
I'm not sure many europeans feel that Greece have helped the EU and currently I doubt many Greeks are glad they adopted that currency either so I didn't think it was too contentious.
I suggest it is rather contentious to say it will always be a clusterfuck. That there is no way out and the country is forever doomed.
Also not sure if we are best placed to judge the state of economies. I suggest it probably takes a little more knowledge and expertise that we have here at Fab.
I'd love to meet the economist who currently judges Greece as a successful economy!!
I can't personally see how Greece can get out of this hole with the Euro as their currency, EU membership and their debt burden.
I made it clear that's just an opinion and nobody is obligated to agree with me. I'm sure the Greek people would love to hear the counter arguement that contains cake and eating it.
But I am not at all ignorant on the subject of economics.
It is not a binary game. The options are more varied than "currently successful" and "fucked forever"
Countries have been in worse straits than this and come out the other side.
Yup but I bet they had their own currency!! "There have been a few times when there were common European currencies. They come and go and countries have survived them so no reason to suggest Greece is eternally doomed. | |||
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"Objection your honour - leading the witness It does contain a conditional clause.
I would also challenge the implication that young people aren't already disenfranchised. I think general interest in politics is at an all time low if voter turnout is anything to go by.
It won't be the end of the world if we leave. I think we'd be better off in a reformed europe and I remain optimistic that can be achieved.
In the most probable scenario; we'll vote to stay this time (4/11 latest odds) but our attempt to reform will fail and the EU will break up before we need another referendum anyway. Then we'll form new union with some other countries and restart the cycle again...
Good points - though i think the EU will be forced to reformulate itself quite drastically and will do so.
But did you say that about the Romans Empire, the Ottoman Empire, the WW2 allies, the Latin Monetary Union or every other pan-national collaboration that has risen and fallen?
If they are serious about saving the EU they need to scrap the Euro which is, always has been and always will be a clusterfuck. Then they need to boot out Greece which is, hasn't always been but will always be a clusterfuck.
I think your last point is rather clumsy.
Greece or the Euro?
Greece
I disagree with your point on the Euro but I can totally see why you have t
Fair enough but as you said, your opinion is borne of ignorance. Therefore should a responsible person know when they don't know what they are talking about and talk about something else instead?
Not ignorance, it's based mainly
It's a fact that their government lied their way into membership in the first place. Now if I sneak into the England game later without a valid ticket then I don't expect much sympathy from the crowd if I get ejected from the stadium!!
I'm not sure many europeans feel that Greece have helped the EU and currently I doubt many Greeks are glad they adopted that currency either so I didn't think it was too contentious.
I suggest it is rather contentious to say it will always be a clusterfuck. That there is no way out and the country is forever doomed.
Also not sure if we are best placed to judge the state of economies. I suggest it probably takes a little more knowledge and expertise that we have here at Fab."Don't shatter too many delusions - it's only Monday   | |||
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