FabSwingers.com forum: It's about the EU not Europe

By *inky-Minx OP Woman
over a year ago

Grantham

As the polling day draws close, and as someone with a serious interest in Politics, I wanted to make it clear that voting to leave the EU is not about leaving Europe, it's not about turning our backs on our fellow Europeans or even stopping immigration.

It is about this country choosing to remove itself from an organisation, the EU as a governing body, that does not operate with the best interests of this country at heart.

I love Europe, the countries, the people, I've lived there, have friends there and I even speak French. Plus a teeny bit of Italian, German and Polish.

This vote is about restoring democracy as much as is possible to this country. It's not about all the scary 'facts & figures' spouted by all & sundry. No one knows what will happen afterwards. Just like no one knew what would happen about not joining the Euro. We cannot foresee the future. As a country the UK is very strong all by itself and we will come through whatever happens.

This vote is about democracy and restoring the ability to make our own laws. This video explains it very nicely, and includes information on the structure of the EU, something I think many people are not aware of.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gILTIDr4Ra8

I hope you will consider democracy and not 'political correctness' in your choice

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

My head is spinning with all the so called facts about leaving or staying,

I was in then out back in again,

I was even thinking about flicking a coin to decide

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

If voting could change anything, they wouldn't let us do it.

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By *teveeb46Man
over a year ago

Blackpool

I have been trying to get a few answers but no one seems to know. 1)If we leave the E.U who would fund the lack of funding Britain would no longer be making? 2)Could the E.U survive without Britain? Anyone got any idea's ?

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By *lik and PaulCouple
over a year ago

Flagrante

"I have been trying to get a few answers but no one seems to know. 1)If we leave the E.U who would fund the lack of funding Britain would no longer be making? 2)Could the E.U survive without Britain? Anyone got any idea's ?"

That's a lot of the problem..no one seems to know. My view is that the EU isn't going to survive anyway...with or with Britain...so the question is do we stick around or bail out now....not for me, but for my children and grand children.

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By *riskynriskyCouple
over a year ago

Essex.

Or as someone else put it...

If this was a vote to join the EU now, in its current state, would you want to join???

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By *olgateMan
over a year ago

on the road to nowhere in particular

Just been talking to a Dutch business man, he says they are watching the referendum very closely, if we vote to leave, they will want to follow us.

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By *obbytupperMan
over a year ago

Menston near Ilkley

In the previous referendum we the people voted to join a common market. Our elected politicians have without reference to our wishes ceded various rights to the European Union, which has been undemocratic from the outset, to say nothing of the corruption.

When Great Britain leaves it will begin to collapse thankfully. Several

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By *obbytupperMan
over a year ago

Menston near Ilkley

.... other member states are already chomping the bit to leave.

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By *avidnsa69Man
over a year ago

Essex & Bridgend

"As the polling day draws close, and as someone with a serious interest in Politics, I wanted to make it clear that voting to leave the EU is not about leaving Europe, it's not about turning our backs on our fellow Europeans or even stopping immigration.

It is about this country choosing to remove itself from an organisation, the EU as a governing body, that does not operate with the best interests of this country at heart.

I love Europe, the countries, the people, I've lived there, have friends there and I even speak French. Plus a teeny bit of Italian, German and Polish.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gILTIDr4Ra8

I hope you will consider democracy and not 'political correctness' in your choice

Tbh, I would rather chew my own arm off than take advice from Toby Young.....biased tosh imho

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

If I have opted to vote by post but haven't received my voting form how do I vote ?

I'm working away from home next week and won't get back until Friday

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I'm voting to leave..Britain is a powerful country..it's people sometimes forget that

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By *ficouldMan
over a year ago

a quandary, could you change my mind?

OP..

I Believe that is the best argument I have actually read..

Well put.

All the different 'so called' facts are a complete nightmare. If they are facts then both sides should be agreeing on them.

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By *dam and slutCouple
over a year ago

Manchester

Hmmm just a thought but as we are nearly part of the e.u. superstate, the uk state of Europe, our parliment reduced to a provincial council ect..l have an idea...the e.u. prison system, well they want an e.u. army, an e.u. police force patrolling the pot holed streets of Manchester.

Anyway, back to my e.u. prison system idea...as our prison system is over flowing, how about sending some of ours to spend time in france Germany Bulgaria etc etc..no need to visit..cctv..that will be 50k please..no cheques please..

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

[Removed by poster at 19/06/16 12:07:35]

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

By leaving, many maibe have to go home, so how would UK cope with less nhs staff, care workers, those who are pickers in the fields such as potatoes, strawberries and cleaners too, after 4 month the system would fall part as no english workers takes such jobs.

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By *hetalkingstoveMan
over a year ago

London

If it's all about democracy, why aren't people so worked up about other abuses of democracy in this country?

- The House of Lords

- Our voting system that means we can have a government that only a minority of people voted for.

- The power of the media

The answer is that we don't mind undemocractic systems so much when it's our own people running them, I guess...

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"By leaving, many maibe have to go home, so how would UK cope with less nhs staff, care workers, those who are pickers in the fields such as potatoes, strawberries and cleaners too, after 4 month the system would fall part as no english workers takes such jobs."

Someone else will probably have the facts but I don't think people in work will be asked to leave if we end up voting to leave the EU, As for filling the void left by anyone who does leave we will have a few years before it takes affect

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

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By *entaur_UKMan
over a year ago

Cannock

I would say it's better to get out now. The former governor of the bank of England Sir Mervyn King said the Eurozone is doomed to failure. If we stay in then the EU will drag us down with it.

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By *entaur_UKMan
over a year ago

Cannock

"Or as someone else put it...

If this was a vote to join the EU now, in its current state, would you want to join???"

No I wouldn't want to join it if that was the question.

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By *inky-Minx OP Woman
over a year ago

Grantham

"If voting could change anything, they wouldn't let us do it."

This is true, but to renege on a 'promise' would surely see them out at the next general election?

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By *inky-Minx OP Woman
over a year ago

Grantham

The true answer is no one knows. In theory, though not fact right now, the money we save by not being in the EU would fund the projects that currently benefit from EU funding. We are a net contributor to the EU, we give them more than we get back.

In my opinion, it would be up to the UK electorate to get a UK government that would spend that money wisely.

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By *inky-Minx OP Woman
over a year ago

Grantham

"My view is that the EU isn't going to survive anyway...with or with Britain...so the question is do we stick around or bail out now....not for me, but for my children and grand children."

I agree with that, the people of the EU tend not to want the EU itself and leave or not, cracks are starting to show.

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By *inky-Minx OP Woman
over a year ago

Grantham

"If I have opted to vote by post but haven't received my voting form how do I vote ?

I'm working away from home next week and won't get back until Friday "

I'd contact your local council electoral registration office asap

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By *entaur_UKMan
over a year ago

Cannock

"In the previous referendum we the people voted to join a common market. Our elected politicians have without reference to our wishes ceded various rights to the European Union, which has been undemocratic from the outset, to say nothing of the corruption.

When Great Britain leaves it will begin to collapse thankfully. Several "

Ted Heath who took us into what is now called the EU in the 1970's sold us the idea that it was a simple trade agreement and nothing more. It was all a lie. Ted Heath admitted in interviews after he retired that he knew it was about more than just trade and he knew about the then future plans for the EU to become a political union with all that goes with it. Ted Heath said he did not let the whole truth be known at the time because he knew the British public would reject it. The British public were sold a lie and those people who voted in the 1970's referendum were deceived.

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By *inky-Minx OP Woman
over a year ago

Grantham

"Or as someone else put it...

If this was a vote to join the EU now, in its current state, would you want to join???"

I'd not heard that but it's a good way to look at it

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"If I have opted to vote by post but haven't received my voting form how do I vote ?

I'm working away from home next week and won't get back until Friday

I'd contact your local council electoral registration office asap

I have, Looks like I'm unable to vote unless I drive back home on Thursday and vote at the local polling station,

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By *inky-Minx OP Woman
over a year ago

Grantham

"Tbh, I would rather chew my own arm off than take advice from Toby Young.....biased tosh imho"

I don't know the man, all I know is what is said makes sense, to me, from a democracy point of view.

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By *inky-Minx OP Woman
over a year ago

Grantham

"Just been talking to a Dutch business man, he says they are watching the referendum very closely, if we vote to leave, they will want to follow us. "

Same with other EU countries, large numbers of the people do not want it any more.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

It is about this country choosing to remove itself from an organisation, the EU as a governing body, that does not operate with the best interests of this country at heart.

I love Europe, the countries, the people, I've lived there, have friends there and I even speak French. Plus a teeny bit of Italian, German and Polish.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gILTIDr4Ra8

I hope you will consider democracy and not 'political correctness' in your choice

Well said, I have already voted Leave

remember with a Leave vote you can still travel and holiday in Europe, you can still work in Europe and we as the UK can still trade with Europe

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By *inky-Minx OP Woman
over a year ago

Grantham

When Great Britain leaves it will begin to collapse thankfully. Several "

Personally I agree.

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By *inky-Minx OP Woman
over a year ago

Grantham

"I'm voting to leave..Britain is a powerful country..it's people sometimes forget that "

So true

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Just been talking to a Dutch business man, he says they are watching the referendum very closely, if we vote to leave, they will want to follow us. "

Many EU countries are watching with same intention to follow and leave

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By *inky-Minx OP Woman
over a year ago

Grantham

"OP..

I Believe that is the best argument I have actually read..

Well put.

All the different 'so called' facts are a complete nightmare. If they are facts then both sides should be agreeing on them. "

Thank you, and you are very right

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

[Removed by poster at 19/06/16 12:46:52]

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By *inky-Minx OP Woman
over a year ago

Grantham

"Hmmm just a thought but as we are nearly part of the e.u. superstate, the uk state of Europe, our parliment reduced to a provincial council ect..l have an idea...the e.u. prison system, well they want an e.u. army, an e.u. police force patrolling the pot holed streets of Manchester.

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By *inky-Minx OP Woman
over a year ago

Grantham

Leaving won't mean people who live and work here legitimately will have to leave.

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By *inky-Minx OP Woman
over a year ago

Grantham

"If it's all about democracy, why aren't people so worked up about other abuses of democracy in this country?

- The House of Lords

- Our voting system that means we can have a government that only a minority of people voted for.

- The power of the media

The answer is that we don't mind undemocractic systems so much when it's our own people running them, I guess...

You are so right, we need to bring back democracy here too. My opinion is that by removing the EU from the equation we, the electorate, will be in a stronger position to put our own house in order.

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By *inky-Minx OP Woman
over a year ago

Grantham

There won't be a void, people from other countries who work and contribute to our society will always be welcome.

All that should change is that anyone new who wants to come here will have to show they are coming for work and can pay their way.

Just like anyone has to do if they want to emigrate to the US, Canada, Australia, New Zealand etc.

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By *inky-Minx OP Woman
over a year ago

Grantham

"Well said, I have already voted Leave

remember with a Leave vote you can still travel and holiday in Europe, you can still work in Europe and we as the UK can still trade with Europe."

Exactly

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

There won't be a void, people from other countries who work and contribute to our society will always be welcome.

All that should change is that anyone new who wants to come here will have to show they are coming for work and can pay their way.

Just like anyone has to do if they want to emigrate to the US, Canada, Australia, New Zealand etc."

indeed, it will open the gates for proper immigration for people with correct trades & skills, medical health and they will ensure they have correct paperwork & health insurance on arrival

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By *inky-Minx OP Woman
over a year ago

Grantham

"indeed, it will open the gates for proper immigration for people with correct trades & skills, medical health and they will ensure they have correct paperwork & health insurance on arrival

This exists already, it will only close the gates to anyone who was intending to come here to 'milk' our benefit, housing and health systems.

Personally I don't think that number is very high, which means that the freedom of movement would still exist in reality.

I think a lot of people forget that people come here because the UK is a land of opportunity for them. The UK is a great place to live and work compared to many other places.

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By *entaur_UKMan
over a year ago

Cannock

Yesterday Lord Guthrie who was the last chief of Defence Staff, and a former Remain campaigner and supporter, switched sides and now backs the Leave campaign. He says he will be voting Leave on Thursday because he believes Britain will be stronger, safer and more secure outside of the EU.

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06/17/field-marshal-lord-guthrie-why-i-now-back-the-leave-campaign/

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By *inky-Minx OP Woman
over a year ago

Grantham

"Yesterday Lord Guthrie who was the last chief of Defence Staff, and a former Remain campaigner and supporter, switched sides and now backs the Leave campaign. He says he will be voting Leave on Thursday because he believes Britain will be stronger, safer and more secure outside of the EU.

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06/17/field-marshal-lord-guthrie-why-i-now-back-the-leave-campaign/"

Very interesting

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By *inky-Minx OP Woman
over a year ago

Grantham

Bu then again, these people are making up their own minds based on their own thoughts etc.

Just like all voters should.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Britain is a strong country I agree but a lot of you and the op seems to have shorts memories Britain is the 5t largest economy now but how did it get there? ....in 1976 Britain got a financial Bail out from the imf yes the same imf the brexit say don't have a clue what they are doing ...then it flourished into the 5th largest so how could people still say the EU is not good for the UK?

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By *mmabluTV/TS
over a year ago

upton wirral

It is about this country choosing to remove itself from an organisation, the EU as a governing body, that does not operate with the best interests of this country at heart.

I love Europe, the countries, the people, I've lived there, have friends there and I even speak French. Plus a teeny bit of Italian, German and Polish.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gILTIDr4Ra8

I hope you will consider democracy and not 'political correctness' in your choice

"
I agree with you,my beef is I object to there human rights act and the European courts etc.The decisions of our courts should be final in our country,our decisions on legal matters have nothing to do with the EU as far as I am concerned.

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By *ildt123Man
over a year ago

Huddersfield

Well said, I have already voted Leave

remember with a Leave vote you can still travel and holiday in Europe, you can still work in Europe and we as the UK can still trade with Europe

You sure about that? We absolutely cannot have access to the free market without free movement of workers. That can't happen under EU law and they cannot change it. Import export tariffs are gauranteed if we opt out of free movement, that is a huge blow to any UK based business that is here because of access to the free market. How many will up sticks and leave?

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By *anchestercubMan
over a year ago

manchester & NI

It is about this country choosing to remove itself from an organisation, the EU as a governing body, that does not operate with the best interests of this country at heart.

I love Europe, the countries, the people, I've lived there, have friends there and I even speak French. Plus a teeny bit of Italian, German and Polish.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gILTIDr4Ra8

I hope you will consider democracy and not 'political correctness' in your choice

I agree with you,my beef is I object to there human rights act and the European courts etc.The decisions of our courts should be final in our country,our decisions on legal matters have nothing to do with the EU as far as I am concerned."

The vast majority of cases are dealt with in the British courts within the framework of our own Human Rights Act.

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By *ildt123Man
over a year ago

Huddersfield

Out of UK laws and statutory directions 13% have EU influence.

Oh and leaving the EU won't mean we lose the European human rights act either that's different altogether.

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By *inCity BluesMan
over a year ago

London

"You sure about that? We absolutely cannot have access to the free market without free movement of workers. That can't happen under EU law and they cannot change it.

You can have access to the market without free movement. Ever heard of the Euro Med Agreement? It covers the future membership of the EU for 13 non-European countries on the borders of Europe: Morocco, Algeria, Libya, Tunisia, Egypt, Israel, Syria, Jordan among them.

These countries will be offered full access to the single market for goods and services but not freedom of movement, as the EU rightly fears tens of millions of unskilled uneducated and mainly Muslim immigrants from those countries.

If they can be offered access to the single market without freedom of movement, then why should we accept anything less?

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By *artytwoCouple
over a year ago

Wolverhampton

Cameron on the TV trying to answer intelligent questions and failing miserably. " If we vote to remain and IF my proposals are accepted......."

He is speculating and trying to scaremonger just like all the bremainers.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Each eu country currently implement their own rules so free trade etc is a bit of a misnomer. Leaving will make it better, it can't get any worse... Lol

Simple example would be to ever try to import a car from Northern Ireland to Southern Ireland.. They are some very expensive hoops you need to jump through... That's one of the easy ones... As someone once said...

Free Trade... My Arse

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By *artytwoCouple
over a year ago

Wolverhampton

All these cnuts appearing on broadcast debates should be wired up to Kyle's lie detector.

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By *ildt123Man
over a year ago

Huddersfield

The EU-med agreement is an agreement between the EU and countries on the Med with the aim of free trade.

There is now way on earth all of the EU countries will agree to the EU trading with us for free if we withdraw from the EU and refuse free movement. Only takes one to veto it and they will be pissed off. If they did other countries would be off so there is no way they could allow it. They have already told the Swiss they can't have immigration quotas and keep trade agreement despite the Swiss having had a referendum so there is no chance

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"The EU-med agreement is an agreement between the EU and countries on the Med with the aim of free trade.

... And the Swiss have the strongest economy

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By *ildt123Man
over a year ago

Huddersfield

They do have a strong economy yes, they are part of the Shengen area and accept free movement of workers.

I also fear they will get stronger if we leave as a fair few of our financial sector will be off there

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By *entaur_UKMan
over a year ago

Cannock

"Cameron on the TV trying to answer intelligent questions and failing miserably. " If we vote to remain and IF my proposals are accepted......."

He is speculating and trying to scaremonger just like all the bremainers.

I thought the best part was when a member of the audience called Cameron the Neville Chamberlain of the 21st century holding up a white piece of paper.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I've gone from one side to the other on this, to even considering not voting at all.

I'm actually quite politically aware, but I can't tell what the truth is anymore so all I can go on is my own feelings.

I don't think the democracy argument holds up to be honest. Not when, for an awful lot of the country, their votes means nothing. In a lot of constituencies they are died in the wool one party or the other. For instance somewhere like Henley on Thames if a monkey stood with a blue rosette on he would be voted in. Much the same for a labour candidate in Bootle. So if you want to vote differently, your voice doesn't get heard.

We are closer to France than we are London. It doesn't make sense for me to vote to make travel harder.

People above mention that if we vote to leave other countries will follow. If there is that much zeal, then decent reform of the EU follows.

These are just a few of my thoughts but weighing it up, I think we're better off in.

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By *inky-Minx OP Woman
over a year ago

Grantham

"Britain is a strong country I agree but a lot of you and the op seems to have shorts memories Britain is the 5t largest economy now but how did it get there? ....in 1976 Britain got a financial Bail out from the imf yes the same imf the brexit say don't have a clue what they are doing ...then it flourished into the 5th largest so how could people still say the EU is not good for the UK?"

There is another reason but that would spark a massive debate of a different kind.

I've forgotten noting btw

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By *inky-Minx OP Woman
over a year ago

Grantham

I understand people might worry about free trade but the reality is we buy from Europe and they don't buy much from us.

Will the French stop selling us apples & cheese? The German stop selling us cars? I think not.

What we do export to the EU does not all stay in the EU. A lot of our exports pass through their ports en route to the rest of the world.

It's in the 'Rotterdam Effect' report.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I have very little doubt that at some point in the future the EU will become a country in its own right. I believe that one unified country along the same lines as the usa is the ultimate goal. And I believe that this isn't to many years away....

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By *oachman 9CoolMan
over a year ago

derby

"Just been talking to a Dutch business man, he says they are watching the referendum very closely, if we vote to leave, they will want to follow us.

Same with other EU countries, large numbers of the people do not want it any more."
This quote amongst many others backed my decision on the matter to give this country its own Independence away from brussels shackles the only brussels I want are the ones you eat in small quantitys..

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By *dwalu2Couple
over a year ago

Bristol

"Cameron on the TV trying to answer intelligent questions and failing miserably. " If we vote to remain and IF my proposals are accepted......."

He is speculating and trying to scaremonger just like all the bremainers.

I thought the best part was when a member of the audience called Cameron the Neville Chamberlain of the 21st century holding up a white piece of paper.

Yes, that sort of thing is very popular with Leave types. They like 'arguments' that have nothing to do with any facts or relevance, but make them laugh.

Did someone say easily pleased?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I understand people might worry about free trade but the reality is we buy from Europe and they don't buy much from us.

Will the French stop selling us apples & cheese? The German stop selling us cars? I think not.

What we do export to the EU does not all stay in the EU. A lot of our exports pass through their ports en route to the rest of the world.

It's in the 'Rotterdam Effect' report."

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By *inky-Minx OP Woman
over a year ago

Grantham

"Yes, that sort of thing is very popular with Leave types. They like 'arguments' that have nothing to do with any facts or relevance, but make them laugh.

Did someone say easily pleased?

I like facts

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By *mmabluTV/TS
over a year ago

upton wirral

"Out of UK laws and statutory directions 13% have EU influence.

Oh and leaving the EU won't mean we lose the European human rights act either that's different altogether.

"
That is 13%to much

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Out of UK laws and statutory directions 13% have EU influence.

Oh and leaving the EU won't mean we lose the European human rights act either that's different altogether.

That is 13%to much"

Another

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I am truly baffled by this whole thing, a girl I work with is choosing to stay because she likes to travel round Europe, by being part of the eu, does this make it easier? I'm totally clueless!!

Will we still have the health card thingys that we can use in Europe? Again totally clueless.

A lot of people have 'something' that is swaying their vote but I don't know what mine is, I guess employment rights etc that the eu brought in are a big thing for me, if we leave does that mean our government will make all the decisions? Does it mean we are endangered of loosing or slightly adapted versions we have now? I really should read up on all this.

G x

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By *dwalu2Couple
over a year ago

Bristol

"Yes, that sort of thing is very popular with Leave types. They like 'arguments' that have nothing to do with any facts or relevance, but make them laugh.

Did someone say easily pleased?

I like facts

Did you post them in another thread?

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By *anchestercubMan
over a year ago

manchester & NI

"I am truly baffled by this whole thing, a girl I work with is choosing to stay because she likes to travel round Europe, by being part of the eu, does this make it easier? I'm totally clueless!!"

Yes

Will we still have the health card thingys that we can use in Europe? Again totally clueless."

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

The EU has had its run there are other countries in the wings waiting to see how we vote before they decide if they stay or go. Looks like the start of a downward spiral for the EU. the problem we have is we are an island that only has so much capacity for people and only so many resorsis to house and look after us all. A glass jar will only hold so many things before its full and with many more people living longer and more people coming here than leaving the resorsis can't cope anymore

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By *anchestercubMan
over a year ago

manchester & NI

"Yes, that sort of thing is very popular with Leave types. They like 'arguments' that have nothing to do with any facts or relevance, but make them laugh.

Did someone say easily pleased?

I like facts

Did you post them in another thread?"

I actually laughed out loud.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I am truly baffled by this whole thing, a girl I work with is choosing to stay because she likes to travel round Europe, by being part of the eu, does this make it easier? I'm totally clueless!!

Yes

Will we still have the health card thingys that we can use in Europe? Again totally clueless.

Thank you!! Well that's answered two of my questions and made it a little clearer for me

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I am truly baffled by this whole thing, a girl I work with is choosing to stay because she likes to travel round Europe, by being part of the eu, does this make it easier? I'm totally clueless!!

Yes

Will we still have the health card thingys that we can use in Europe? Again totally clueless.

Again the answers are incorrect but so many peddle fear around this. If anything it's a No and then a yes as reciprocal agreements are in place... How does anyone get into a non eu country at present? Easy x

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By *inky-Minx OP Woman
over a year ago

Grantham

"Yes, that sort of thing is very popular with Leave types. They like 'arguments' that have nothing to do with any facts or relevance, but make them laugh.

Did someone say easily pleased?

I like facts

Did you post them in another thread?"

I've posted in a few threads on this topic. All as factual as I can be.

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By *entaur_UKMan
over a year ago

Cannock

[Removed by poster at 21/06/16 23:42:21]

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By *anchestercubMan
over a year ago

manchester & NI

"I am truly baffled by this whole thing, a girl I work with is choosing to stay because she likes to travel round Europe, by being part of the eu, does this make it easier? I'm totally clueless!!

Yes

Will we still have the health card thingys that we can use in Europe? Again totally clueless.

European Health Insurance Cards are for EU or EFTA nationals. If we Brexit we will not be an EU member nor an EFTA member.

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By *entaur_UKMan
over a year ago

Cannock

"Cameron on the TV trying to answer intelligent questions and failing miserably. " If we vote to remain and IF my proposals are accepted......."

He is speculating and trying to scaremonger just like all the bremainers.

I thought the best part was when a member of the audience called Cameron the Neville Chamberlain of the 21st century holding up a white piece of paper.

Yes, that sort of thing is very popular with Leave types. They like 'arguments' that have nothing to do with any facts or relevance, but make them laugh.

Did someone say easily pleased?

Jeremy Corbyn's number one fan on here now jumping to the defence of David Cameron. This thread just gets better and better.

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By *LCCCouple
over a year ago

Cambridge

As the EU's democracy is essentially a scaled up version of the democracy we have here in Britain, what is it that people don't like about it?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I am truly baffled by this whole thing, a girl I work with is choosing to stay because she likes to travel round Europe, by being part of the eu, does this make it easier? I'm totally clueless!!

Yes

Will we still have the health card thingys that we can use in Europe? Again totally clueless.

European Health Insurance Cards are for EU or EFTA nationals. If we Brexit we will not be an EU member nor an EFTA member. "

Ok- you must be right - just forgotten all about all those health tourists from outside the EU - all on freebies

- silly me

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By *dwalu2Couple
over a year ago

Bristol

"Cameron on the TV trying to answer intelligent questions and failing miserably. " If we vote to remain and IF my proposals are accepted......."

He is speculating and trying to scaremonger just like all the bremainers.

I thought the best part was when a member of the audience called Cameron the Neville Chamberlain of the 21st century holding up a white piece of paper.

Yes, that sort of thing is very popular with Leave types. They like 'arguments' that have nothing to do with any facts or relevance, but make them laugh.

Did someone say easily pleased?

Jeremy Corbyn's number one fan on here now jumping to the defence of David Cameron. This thread just gets better and better.

Have you been playing the 'take a drink each time Leave lie' tonight? You seem to think I'm defending David Cameron there, rather than pointing out the sort of fact-free debates enjoyed by Leave supporters.

*hic*!

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By *dwalu2Couple
over a year ago

Bristol

"As the EU's democracy is essentially a scaled up version of the democracy we have here in Britain, what is it that people don't like about it? "

It's done by foreigners, innit.

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By *anchestercubMan
over a year ago

manchester & NI

"I am truly baffled by this whole thing, a girl I work with is choosing to stay because she likes to travel round Europe, by being part of the eu, does this make it easier? I'm totally clueless!!

Yes

Will we still have the health card thingys that we can use in Europe? Again totally clueless.

European Health Insurance Cards are for EU or EFTA nationals. If we Brexit we will not be an EU member nor an EFTA member.

Ok- you must be right - just forgotten all about all those health tourists from outside the EU - all on freebies

- silly me

The poster was asking about the EHIC.

"all those health tourists from outside the EU"

Whatever you're claiming there has nothing to do with the EHIC.

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By *dwalu2Couple
over a year ago

Bristol

"I am truly baffled by this whole thing, a girl I work with is choosing to stay because she likes to travel round Europe, by being part of the eu, does this make it easier? I'm totally clueless!!

Yes

Will we still have the health card thingys that we can use in Europe? Again totally clueless.

European Health Insurance Cards are for EU or EFTA nationals. If we Brexit we will not be an EU member nor an EFTA member.

Ok- you must be right - just forgotten all about all those health tourists from outside the EU - all on freebies

- silly me

You probably forgot about it because it doesn't exist.

Health tourism is a story that UKIP supporters tell their children to bore them to sleep at night.

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By *inky-Minx OP Woman
over a year ago

Grantham

"As the EU's democracy is essentially a scaled up version of the democracy we have here in Britain, what is it that people don't like about it? "

Did you watch the video I posted, the decision makers in the EU are NOT elected. That makes it undemocratic in many people's eyes. Including mine.

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By *inky-Minx OP Woman
over a year ago

Grantham

I worked for the Employment Service for a while and took claims from people from the EU who's come here to have their babies because it was better and 'free'.

Not saying many do it but it has happened. Though personally immigration is not the issue with the EU for me.

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By *ady LickWoman
over a year ago

Northampton Somewhere

Well I've found it quite helpful. Thanks KM

I resorted to doing an online quiz type thing and my result was Out

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By *inky-Minx OP Woman
over a year ago

Grantham

"Well I've found it quite helpful. Thanks KM

I resorted to doing an online quiz type thing and my result was Out

Thank you for the thank you

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By *anchestercubMan
over a year ago

manchester & NI

"I worked for the Employment Service for a while and took claims from people from the EU who's come here to have their babies because it was better and 'free'.

Not saying many do it but it has happened. Though personally immigration is not the issue with the EU for me."

I wonder why the NHS paid then, EHIC can be refused if the intent of travel was for health care treatment.

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By *dwalu2Couple
over a year ago

Bristol

"As the EU's democracy is essentially a scaled up version of the democracy we have here in Britain, what is it that people don't like about it?

Did you watch the video I posted, the decision makers in the EU are NOT elected. That makes it undemocratic in many people's eyes. Including mine."

You just said you liked facts! Here's a clue for you - there aren't many in that video, and the decision makers in the EU ARE elected.

This is the factual process, if you are really interested:

How EU decisions are made

The EU’s standard decision-making procedure is known as 'Ordinary Legislative Procedure’ (ex "codecision"). This means that the directly elected European Parliament has to approve EU legislation together with the Council (the governments of the 28 EU countries).

Drafting EU law

Before the Commission proposes new initiatives it assesses the potential economic, social and environmental consequences that they may have. It does this by preparing 'Impact assessments' which set out the advantages and disadvantages of possible policy options.

The Commission also consults interested parties such as non-governmental organisations, local authorities and representatives of industry and civil society. Groups of experts give advice on technical issues. In this way, the Commission ensures that legislative proposals correspond to the needs of those most concerned and avoids unnecessary red tape.

Citizens, businesses and organisations can participate in the consultation procedure via the website Public consultations.

National parliaments can formally express their reservations if they feel that it would be better to deal with an issue at national rather than EU level.

Review and adoption

The European Parliament and the Council review proposals by the Commission and propose amendments. If the Council and the Parliament cannot agree upon amendments, a second reading takes place.

In the second reading, the Parliament and Council can again propose amendments. Parliament has the power to block the proposed legislation if it cannot agree with the Council.

If the two institutions agree on amendments, the proposed legislation can be adopted. If they cannot agree, a conciliation committee tries to find a solution. Both the Council and the Parliament can block the legislative proposal at this final reading.

All the facts you could ever want!

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By *razedcatMan
over a year ago

London / Herts

The "Making our own laws" argument wielded by Brexiters is possibly the weakest one in their arsenal.

Firstly, over 80% of all laws passed in this country done so without any EU intervention or influence.

Secondly, a Brexit would hardly lead to a divergence in our laws. This is because

a) Not only does the collective intellectual wealth of the Union mean laws passed make a good deal of sense, but in order to maintain trade links we will almost certainly mould our laws in the EU's image, and

b) If we were to depart from EU standards, the products produced or services rendered in the UK would no longer be EU compatible.

I also note that a lot of Brexiters seem to think that leaving the EU will have some effect on human rights law. that is WRONG. The European Convention on Human Rights is a legal document brought into effect by the Council of Europe. That is an institution entirely separate to the EU, and leaving the EU will have no effect on this treaty. The criminal justice system and the immigration system will still be bound by its provisions.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Cameron on the TV trying to answer intelligent questions and failing miserably. " If we vote to remain and IF my proposals are accepted......."

He is speculating and trying to scaremonger just like all the bremainers.

I thought the best part was when a member of the audience called Cameron the Neville Chamberlain of the 21st century holding up a white piece of paper.

Yes, that sort of thing is very popular with Leave types. They like 'arguments' that have nothing to do with any facts or relevance, but make them laugh.

Did someone say easily pleased?

Jeremy Corbyn's number one fan on here now jumping to the defence of David Cameron. This thread just gets better and better.

*hic*!"

Well played... Great informative reply

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By *inky-Minx OP Woman
over a year ago

Grantham

"I worked for the Employment Service for a while and took claims from people from the EU who's come here to have their babies because it was better and 'free'.

Not saying many do it but it has happened. Though personally immigration is not the issue with the EU for me.

I wonder why the NHS paid then, EHIC can be refused if the intent of travel was for health care treatment. "

It was a few years back, things may have changed. They pretended to be students looking for work.

But I really don't think that's the problem with the EU.

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By *inky-Minx OP Woman
over a year ago

Grantham

"As the EU's democracy is essentially a scaled up version of the democracy we have here in Britain, what is it that people don't like about it?

Did you watch the video I posted, the decision makers in the EU are NOT elected. That makes it undemocratic in many people's eyes. Including mine.

You just said you liked facts! Here's a clue for you - there aren't many in that video, and the decision makers in the EU ARE elected.

This is the factual process, if you are really interested:

How EU decisions are made

Drafting EU law

Citizens, businesses and organisations can participate in the consultation procedure via the website Public consultations.

National parliaments can formally express their reservations if they feel that it would be better to deal with an issue at national rather than EU level.

Review and adoption

The European Parliament and the Council review proposals by the Commission and propose amendments. If the Council and the Parliament cannot agree upon amendments, a second reading takes place.

In the second reading, the Parliament and Council can again propose amendments. Parliament has the power to block the proposed legislation if it cannot agree with the Council.

All the facts you could ever want!

Funny how this turns into a personal attack because I don't agree with you.

Having a go at me won't change my mind how I vote

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By *LCCCouple
over a year ago

Cambridge

"As the EU's democracy is essentially a scaled up version of the democracy we have here in Britain, what is it that people don't like about it?

Did you watch the video I posted, the decision makers in the EU are NOT elected. That makes it undemocratic in many people's eyes. Including mine."

Who do you mean by decision makers? MEPs? They are elected.

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By *inky-Minx OP Woman
over a year ago

Grantham

"Firstly, over 80% of all laws passed in this country done so without any EU intervention or influence."

Don't think so. Have you a source?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

So if we vote to leave, does anyone think it will encourage governmental reform here? Because our system of governance is actually more bureaucratic than Brussels. But if proportional representation had been brought in it would actually mean some MPs who are voting to leave, would be out of a job, so I am thinking they would be happy with the status quo here.

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By *inky-Minx OP Woman
over a year ago

Grantham

"Who do you mean by decision makers? MEPs? They are elected."

New laws are proposed by the Commission, which is not elected.

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By *dwalu2Couple
over a year ago

Bristol

"As the EU's democracy is essentially a scaled up version of the democracy we have here in Britain, what is it that people don't like about it?

Did you watch the video I posted, the decision makers in the EU are NOT elected. That makes it undemocratic in many people's eyes. Including mine.

You just said you liked facts! Here's a clue for you - there aren't many in that video, and the decision makers in the EU ARE elected.

This is the factual process, if you are really interested:

How EU decisions are made

Drafting EU law

Citizens, businesses and organisations can participate in the consultation procedure via the website Public consultations.

National parliaments can formally express their reservations if they feel that it would be better to deal with an issue at national rather than EU level.

Review and adoption

The European Parliament and the Council review proposals by the Commission and propose amendments. If the Council and the Parliament cannot agree upon amendments, a second reading takes place.

In the second reading, the Parliament and Council can again propose amendments. Parliament has the power to block the proposed legislation if it cannot agree with the Council.

All the facts you could ever want!

Funny how this turns into a personal attack because I don't agree with you.

Having a go at me won't change my mind how I vote

Actually, it's funny how you are pretending it's a personal attack, when clearly it is not.

In your own words you said : I like facts!

Then you posted a link to a video which was free from facts, but full of mistruths. When informed of that, and given some actual, confirmable facts, you decide to pretend someone is having a go at you, instead of absorbing the facts you say you like.

I have no problem at all with how you vote, it's yours to use however you wish, but don't pretend to yourself you are basing your decision on facts.

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By *razedcatMan
over a year ago

London / Herts

"New laws are proposed by the Commission, which is not elected. "

But isn't the Commission made up of the leaders of each EU state?

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By *dwalu2Couple
over a year ago

Bristol

"Who do you mean by decision makers? MEPs? They are elected.

New laws are proposed by the Commission, which is not elected. "

And they aren't the decision makers either.

FACT!

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By *inky-Minx OP Woman
over a year ago

Grantham

"So if we vote to leave, does anyone think it will encourage governmental reform here? Because our system of governance is actually more bureaucratic than Brussels. But if proportional representation had been brought in it would actually mean some MPs who are voting to leave, would be out of a job, so I am thinking they would be happy with the status quo here. "

No one knows what will happen but it would be good to think the government, and future ones, would pull there socks up.

Though getting larger turnouts at general elections would help. Sadly too many people do not vote , which I believe let's governments get away with being lazy.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

People will vote .. Answer Friday... Threads like this are a waste of time.

U can't discuss or debate reasonably with unreasonable people xx

Be happy, sleep well x

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By *inky-Minx OP Woman
over a year ago

Grantham

"As the EU's democracy is essentially a scaled up version of the democracy we have here in Britain, what is it that people don't like about it?

Did you watch the video I posted, the decision makers in the EU are NOT elected. That makes it undemocratic in many people's eyes. Including mine.

You just said you liked facts! Here's a clue for you - there aren't many in that video, and the decision makers in the EU ARE elected.

This is the factual process, if you are really interested:

How EU decisions are made

Drafting EU law

Citizens, businesses and organisations can participate in the consultation procedure via the website Public consultations.

National parliaments can formally express their reservations if they feel that it would be better to deal with an issue at national rather than EU level.

Review and adoption

The European Parliament and the Council review proposals by the Commission and propose amendments. If the Council and the Parliament cannot agree upon amendments, a second reading takes place.

In the second reading, the Parliament and Council can again propose amendments. Parliament has the power to block the proposed legislation if it cannot agree with the Council.

All the facts you could ever want!

Funny how this turns into a personal attack because I don't agree with you.

Having a go at me won't change my mind how I vote

Actually, it's funny how you are pretending it's a personal attack, when clearly it is not.

In your own words you said : I like facts!

I have no problem at all with how you vote, it's yours to use however you wish, but don't pretend to yourself you are basing your decision on facts."

The link was posted in my first post. I shall think and vote as I please

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By *entaur_UKMan
over a year ago

Cannock

"As the EU's democracy is essentially a scaled up version of the democracy we have here in Britain, what is it that people don't like about it? "

It's not a scaled up version of our democracy at all. It is completely the opposite version of our British parliamentary democracy.

British democracy works by the public voting for MP's and it is those elected MP's who make the laws and legislation, it gets referred to the house of Lords for possible amendments but it is the elected house of commons that holds all the real power and has the final say. Then if we don't like our MP's we can hold them to account and vote them out at the next general election.

The EU is completely the opposite. It is the unelected EU commission who write EU law and legislation, they then pass it over to the European parliament where elected MEP's can suggest possible ammendments, but it is the unelected commission who hold all the real power and they have the final say. Then because the commission is not elected the people of Europe also have no mechanism to remove them through the ballot box if they don't like how they behave.

So the EU parliament with its MEP'S is like our house of Lords, making suggestions for ammendments to law but with very little power.

The EU commission is like our house of commons, they make the laws and they hold all the real power.

In the EU, MEP's with little power are elected, EU commissioners with all the power are unelected and they cannot be removed.

In Westminster, house of Lords with little power are unelected. MP's with all the power are elected and they can be removed through the ballot box.

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By *dwalu2Couple
over a year ago

Bristol

"People will vote .. Answer Friday... Threads like this are a waste of time.

U can't discuss or debate reasonably with unreasonable people xx

Be happy, sleep well x"

Agreed. Brexiters just want to have their prejudices confirmed, they dislike it when the truth is inconvenient, which happens a lot.

Night night!

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By *inky-Minx OP Woman
over a year ago

Grantham

"New laws are proposed by the Commission, which is not elected.

But isn't the Commission made up of the leaders of each EU state?"

No, there is 1 from each EU country but they are not elected or even chosen by us. They are not the leaders of the countries either.

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By *entaur_UKMan
over a year ago

Cannock

"I am truly baffled by this whole thing, a girl I work with is choosing to stay because she likes to travel round Europe, by being part of the eu, does this make it easier? I'm totally clueless!!

Yes

Will we still have the health card thingys that we can use in Europe? Again totally clueless.

European Health Insurance Cards are for EU or EFTA nationals. If we Brexit we will not be an EU member nor an EFTA member.

Ok- you must be right - just forgotten all about all those health tourists from outside the EU - all on freebies

- silly me

You probably forgot about it because it doesn't exist.

Health tourism is a story that UKIP supporters tell their children to bore them to sleep at night.

A bit like your posts on here then.....Zzzzzzzzzzzz

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By *inky-Minx OP Woman
over a year ago

Grantham

"People will vote .. Answer Friday... Threads like this are a waste of time.

U can't discuss or debate reasonably with unreasonable people xx

Be happy, sleep well x"

I enjoyed the thread

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By *dwalu2Couple
over a year ago

Bristol

"As the EU's democracy is essentially a scaled up version of the democracy we have here in Britain, what is it that people don't like about it?

Did you watch the video I posted, the decision makers in the EU are NOT elected. That makes it undemocratic in many people's eyes. Including mine.

You just said you liked facts! Here's a clue for you - there aren't many in that video, and the decision makers in the EU ARE elected.

This is the factual process, if you are really interested:

How EU decisions are made

Drafting EU law

Citizens, businesses and organisations can participate in the consultation procedure via the website Public consultations.

National parliaments can formally express their reservations if they feel that it would be better to deal with an issue at national rather than EU level.

Review and adoption

The European Parliament and the Council review proposals by the Commission and propose amendments. If the Council and the Parliament cannot agree upon amendments, a second reading takes place.

In the second reading, the Parliament and Council can again propose amendments. Parliament has the power to block the proposed legislation if it cannot agree with the Council.

All the facts you could ever want!

Funny how this turns into a personal attack because I don't agree with you.

Having a go at me won't change my mind how I vote

Actually, it's funny how you are pretending it's a personal attack, when clearly it is not.

In your own words you said : I like facts!

I have no problem at all with how you vote, it's yours to use however you wish, but don't pretend to yourself you are basing your decision on facts.

The link was posted in my first post. I shall think and vote as I please

Maybe you linked to a different video by mistake? The one you posted has Toby Young misrepresenting the truth about European democracy.

Which one with facts in did you think you posted?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"People will vote .. Answer Friday... Threads like this are a waste of time.

U can't discuss or debate reasonably with unreasonable people xx

Be happy, sleep well x

Agreed. Brexiters just want to have their prejudices confirmed, they dislike it when the truth is inconvenient, which happens a lot.

Night night!

U just got 3 thumbs lol x

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By *inky-Minx OP Woman
over a year ago

Grantham

"Maybe you linked to a different video by mistake? The one you posted has Toby Young misrepresenting the truth about European democracy.

Which one with facts in did you think you posted?"

Like I said, whatever digs you have at me won't change my mind

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"People will vote .. Answer Friday... Threads like this are a waste of time.

U can't discuss or debate reasonably with unreasonable people xx

Be happy, sleep well x

I enjoyed the thread

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By *entaur_UKMan
over a year ago

Cannock

"As the EU's democracy is essentially a scaled up version of the democracy we have here in Britain, what is it that people don't like about it?

Did you watch the video I posted, the decision makers in the EU are NOT elected. That makes it undemocratic in many people's eyes. Including mine.

You just said you liked facts! Here's a clue for you - there aren't many in that video, and the decision makers in the EU ARE elected.

This is the factual process, if you are really interested:

How EU decisions are made

Drafting EU law

Citizens, businesses and organisations can participate in the consultation procedure via the website Public consultations.

National parliaments can formally express their reservations if they feel that it would be better to deal with an issue at national rather than EU level.

Review and adoption

The European Parliament and the Council review proposals by the Commission and propose amendments. If the Council and the Parliament cannot agree upon amendments, a second reading takes place.

In the second reading, the Parliament and Council can again propose amendments. Parliament has the power to block the proposed legislation if it cannot agree with the Council.

All the facts you could ever want!

Really, why is it your personal hero and Savior Jeremy Corbyn still insists the EU is undemocratic and needs reform then?

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By *LCCCouple
over a year ago

Cambridge

"I worked for the Employment Service for a while and took claims from people from the EU who's come here to have their babies because it was better and 'free'.

Not saying many do it but it has happened. Though personally immigration is not the issue with the EU for me."

Well although it may have been "free" for them, it wasn't free for the country they came from. Through the EHIC system if someone from say Italy comes to the UK and has £1,000 of treatment using their EHIC card, the NHS provides it free to the patient, and then bills the Italian government. So it doesn't cost the NHS anything. Was that something that you were aware of?

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By *inky-Minx OP Woman
over a year ago

Grantham

"I worked for the Employment Service for a while and took claims from people from the EU who's come here to have their babies because it was better and 'free'.

Not saying many do it but it has happened. Though personally immigration is not the issue with the EU for me.

It wasn't like that at the time. Things have changed. And, as I keep saying, immigration/health tourism is not the issue for me.

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By *entaur_UKMan
over a year ago

Cannock

"As the EU's democracy is essentially a scaled up version of the democracy we have here in Britain, what is it that people don't like about it?

Did you watch the video I posted, the decision makers in the EU are NOT elected. That makes it undemocratic in many people's eyes. Including mine.

You just said you liked facts! Here's a clue for you - there aren't many in that video, and the decision makers in the EU ARE elected.

This is the factual process, if you are really interested:

How EU decisions are made

Drafting EU law

Citizens, businesses and organisations can participate in the consultation procedure via the website Public consultations.

National parliaments can formally express their reservations if they feel that it would be better to deal with an issue at national rather than EU level.

Review and adoption

The European Parliament and the Council review proposals by the Commission and propose amendments. If the Council and the Parliament cannot agree upon amendments, a second reading takes place.

In the second reading, the Parliament and Council can again propose amendments. Parliament has the power to block the proposed legislation if it cannot agree with the Council.

All the facts you could ever want!

Funny how this turns into a personal attack because I don't agree with you.

Having a go at me won't change my mind how I vote

Actually, it's funny how you are pretending it's a personal attack, when clearly it is not.

In your own words you said : I like facts!

I have no problem at all with how you vote, it's yours to use however you wish, but don't pretend to yourself you are basing your decision on facts."

Everything you said in your posts boils down to the following......Unelected commissioners make the laws and they are then referred to elected MEP's in the European parliament to make suggestions for ammendments. The commission decide whether to accept the ammendments or not so the commission have the final say.

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By *inky-Minx OP Woman
over a year ago

Grantham

"Unelected commissioners make the laws and they are then referred to elected MEP's in the European parliament to make suggestions for ammendments. The commission decide whether to accept the ammendments or not so the commission have the final say. "

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By *entaur_UKMan
over a year ago

Cannock

"New laws are proposed by the Commission, which is not elected.

But isn't the Commission made up of the leaders of each EU state?

No, there is 1 from each EU country but they are not elected or even chosen by us. They are not the leaders of the countries either."

Usually failed politicians from their home countries like Neil Kinnock and Peter Mandelson.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I worked for the Employment Service for a while and took claims from people from the EU who's come here to have their babies because it was better and 'free'.

Not saying many do it but it has happened. Though personally immigration is not the issue with the EU for me.

Correct but in gathering all the info for the invoice detail, surgeons notes etc, admin, more admin, chasing payment etc etc etc you £1k shoots up quicker than a Russian football supporter with a flare up his arse

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By *LCCCouple
over a year ago

Cambridge

"As the EU's democracy is essentially a scaled up version of the democracy we have here in Britain, what is it that people don't like about it?

It's not a scaled up version of our democracy at all. It is completely the opposite version of our British parliamentary democracy.

So the EU parliament with its MEP'S is like our house of Lords, making suggestions for ammendments to law but with very little power.

The EU commission is like our house of commons, they make the laws and they hold all the real power.

In the EU, MEP's with little power are elected, EU commissioners with all the power are unelected and they cannot be removed.

In Westminster, house of Lords with little power are unelected. MP's with all the power are elected and they can be removed through the ballot box. "

Ordinary MPs from both sides of the aisle don't make laws though do they? It's the ministers and members of the cabinet that create the bills which are then passed, usually, by the party with the most seats and opposed by the other parties. I didn't vote for any members of the cabinet. I didn't select them. No one votes for the cabinet, or for who should be prime minister. The voters of his constituency voted for Cameron to be an MP, but they weren't asked who they want to be PM were they?

The PM selects a member of the EU commission in the same way he selects who will be Secretary of State for Education for example. So how can that same mechanism be democratic for British politics, but not democratic for EU politics?

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By *LCCCouple
over a year ago

Cambridge

"I worked for the Employment Service for a while and took claims from people from the EU who's come here to have their babies because it was better and 'free'.

Not saying many do it but it has happened. Though personally immigration is not the issue with the EU for me.

That admin cost can be claimed for too.

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By *LCCCouple
over a year ago

Cambridge

"I worked for the Employment Service for a while and took claims from people from the EU who's come here to have their babies because it was better and 'free'.

Not saying many do it but it has happened. Though personally immigration is not the issue with the EU for me.

It wasn't like that at the time. Things have changed. And, as I keep saying, immigration/health tourism is not the issue for me."

As far as I am aware that has always been the system, the same as with the old E111 system. But obviously that is back-office paperwork for the NHS, so there is no reason why the general public would be aware.

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By *inky-Minx OP Woman
over a year ago

Grantham

"The voters of his constituency voted for Cameron to be an MP, but they weren't asked who they want to be PM were they?"

Exactly, he was voted in.

His party chose him as leader. But he wouldn't be there if he had not been elected in the first place.

The commissioners are never elected to any post by anyone. They just are commissioners.

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By *dwalu2Couple
over a year ago

Bristol

"As the EU's democracy is essentially a scaled up version of the democracy we have here in Britain, what is it that people don't like about it?

Did you watch the video I posted, the decision makers in the EU are NOT elected. That makes it undemocratic in many people's eyes. Including mine.

You just said you liked facts! Here's a clue for you - there aren't many in that video, and the decision makers in the EU ARE elected.

This is the factual process, if you are really interested:

How EU decisions are made

Drafting EU law

Citizens, businesses and organisations can participate in the consultation procedure via the website Public consultations.

National parliaments can formally express their reservations if they feel that it would be better to deal with an issue at national rather than EU level.

Review and adoption

The European Parliament and the Council review proposals by the Commission and propose amendments. If the Council and the Parliament cannot agree upon amendments, a second reading takes place.

In the second reading, the Parliament and Council can again propose amendments. Parliament has the power to block the proposed legislation if it cannot agree with the Council.

All the facts you could ever want!

Funny how this turns into a personal attack because I don't agree with you.

Having a go at me won't change my mind how I vote

Actually, it's funny how you are pretending it's a personal attack, when clearly it is not.

In your own words you said : I like facts!

I have no problem at all with how you vote, it's yours to use however you wish, but don't pretend to yourself you are basing your decision on facts.

You need to read it again!

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By *anchestercubMan
over a year ago

manchester & NI

"New laws are proposed by the Commission, which is not elected.

But isn't the Commission made up of the leaders of each EU state?

No, there is 1 from each EU country but they are not elected or even chosen by us. They are not the leaders of the countries either.

Usually failed politicians from their home countries like Neil Kinnock and Peter Mandelson. "

I thought failed politicians ran as UKIP candidates.

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By *inky-Minx OP Woman
over a year ago

Grantham

"Usually failed politicians from their home countries like Neil Kinnock and Peter Mandelson.

I thought failed politicians ran as UKIP candidates. "

Some do, some become Police & Crime Commissioners

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By *iamondjoeMan
over a year ago

Glastonbury

Beautifully put, OP, but nonsense.

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By *inky-Minx OP Woman
over a year ago

Grantham

"You need to read it again!

No one needs to do anything you say

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By *inky-Minx OP Woman
over a year ago

Grantham

"Beautifully put, OP, but nonsense.

I may not love you any more

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By *iamondjoeMan
over a year ago

Glastonbury

"Beautifully put, OP, but nonsense.

I may not love you any more

But seriously, what have we 'lost'?

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By *horehouseCouple
over a year ago

dissatisfied

"New laws are proposed by the Commission, which is not elected.

But isn't the Commission made up of the leaders of each EU state?

No, there is 1 from each EU country but they are not elected or even chosen by us. They are not the leaders of the countries either.

Usually failed politicians from their home countries like Neil Kinnock and Peter Mandelson.

I thought failed politicians ran as UKIP candidates. "
there changed every five years ..unlike the house of lords it isn't a job for life ..so a little more democratic than our system ....

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By *dwalu2Couple
over a year ago

Bristol

"You need to read it again!

No one needs to do anything you say

Too true! I can't order anyone to be enlightened. At best, I can offer them a candle and a match.

But the dark is so comforting!

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I worked for the Employment Service for a while and took claims from people from the EU who's come here to have their babies because it was better and 'free'.

Not saying many do it but it has happened. Though personally immigration is not the issue with the EU for me.

That admin cost can be claimed for too."

Yes correct, and as far as I'm aware not one invoice has ever been paid correctly or on time.. Maybe all the chat about 'a burden on the NHS' has been another untruth by the very career politicians now saying don't worry about that...

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By *inky-Minx OP Woman
over a year ago

Grantham

"You need to read it again!

No one needs to do anything you say

Too true! I can't order anyone to be enlightened. At best, I can offer them a candle and a match.

But the dark is so comforting!

I feel quite enlightened anyway.

Isn't it past your bedtime now?

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By *inky-Minx OP Woman
over a year ago

Grantham

"Beautifully put, OP, but nonsense.

I may not love you any more

But seriously, what have we 'lost'?"

In my mind, our sovereignty.

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By *LCCCouple
over a year ago

Cambridge

"The voters of his constituency voted for Cameron to be an MP, but they weren't asked who they want to be PM were they?

Exactly, he was voted in.

His party chose him as leader. But he wouldn't be there if he had not been elected in the first place.

The commissioners are never elected to any post by anyone. They just are commissioners."

But I am saying that its the cabinet that make the laws in the UK (which are voted on by parliament) and that you dont need to be voted in to be in the cabinet, you can be a member of the house of lords for example, ie Baroness Warsi, Lord Adonis, Baroness Amos, Lord Falconer etc. None of those were elected.

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By *dwalu2Couple
over a year ago

Bristol

"You need to read it again!

No one needs to do anything you say

Too true! I can't order anyone to be enlightened. At best, I can offer them a candle and a match.

But the dark is so comforting!

I feel quite enlightened anyway.

Isn't it past your bedtime now?

Then you've learned not to trust your feelings, at least!

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By *iamondjoeMan
over a year ago

Glastonbury

"Beautifully put, OP, but nonsense.

I may not love you any more

But seriously, what have we 'lost'?

In my mind, our sovereignty."

'Our sovereignty'

Like how? Define the loss...

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By *anchestercubMan
over a year ago

manchester & NI

"Beautifully put, OP, but nonsense.

I may not love you any more

But seriously, what have we 'lost'?

In my mind, our sovereignty."

Queenie must be squatting at the palace.

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By *inky-Minx OP Woman
over a year ago

Grantham

"But I am saying that its the cabinet that make the laws in the UK (which are voted on by parliament) and that you dont need to be voted in to be in the cabinet, you can be a member of the house of lords for example, ie Baroness Warsi, Lord Adonis, Baroness Amos, Lord Falconer etc. None of those were elected."

The cabinet do not make the laws. There is a process http://www.parliament.uk/education/about-your-parliament/how-laws-are-made/

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By *inky-Minx OP Woman
over a year ago

Grantham

"Beautifully put, OP, but nonsense.

I may not love you any more

But seriously, what have we 'lost'?

In my mind, our sovereignty.

Queenie must be squatting at the palace. "

She has special toilets dotted around the country

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By *inky-Minx OP Woman
over a year ago

Grantham

"Beautifully put, OP, but nonsense.

I may not love you any more

But seriously, what have we 'lost'?

In my mind, our sovereignty.

'Our sovereignty'

Like how? Define the loss..."

Not at this time of night

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By *entaur_UKMan
over a year ago

Cannock

"You need to read it again!

No one needs to do anything you say

Too true! I can't order anyone to be enlightened. At best, I can offer them a candle and a match.

But the dark is so comforting!

Are you enlightened about the anti semitism in the Labour party yet? You went very quiet on here when all that was going on.

Maybe you like being in the dark about that though?

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By *LCCCouple
over a year ago

Cambridge

"I worked for the Employment Service for a while and took claims from people from the EU who's come here to have their babies because it was better and 'free'.

Not saying many do it but it has happened. Though personally immigration is not the issue with the EU for me.

That admin cost can be claimed for too.

Do you have any proof to back up your claim that not one invoice has ever been paid correctly or on time?

As it is a reciprocal agreement (we charge them and they charge us for treatment Brits have had abroad) if they aren't paying properly, surely we could justly withhold payment from them? Surely it makes sense for both parties to efficiently manage the claims?

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By *iamondjoeMan
over a year ago

Glastonbury

"Beautifully put, OP, but nonsense.

I may not love you any more

But seriously, what have we 'lost'?

In my mind, our sovereignty.

'Our sovereignty'

Like how? Define the loss...

Not at this time of night

This is the time of night

Classic BBC Radio Theme ~ Shipping Forecast (Sailing By)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dFdas-kMF74

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By *dwalu2Couple
over a year ago

Bristol

"You need to read it again!

No one needs to do anything you say

Too true! I can't order anyone to be enlightened. At best, I can offer them a candle and a match.

But the dark is so comforting!

Are you enlightened about the anti semitism in the Labour party yet? You went very quiet on here when all that was going on.

Maybe you like being in the dark about that though? "

So, as I've proved you completely wrong on this topic, you now want to return to another topic I proved you completely wrong on to try to obscure the point?

Centaur, you never change!

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By *entaur_UKMan
over a year ago

Cannock

[Removed by poster at 22/06/16 00:50:38]

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By *LCCCouple
over a year ago

Cambridge

The cabinet do not make the laws. There is a process http://www.parliament.uk/education/about-your-parliament/how-laws-are-made/"

Thanks for the link, here is a quote from it:

"Cabinet ministers must agree which proposals to take forward

Having consulted on a proposal, government ministers then aim to persuade colleagues to support the idea. The merits of various policies are debated in cabinet committees, made up of ministers from across government and chaired by a senior member of the cabinet. Even with approval from a cabinet committee, a proposal must still be selected by the committee responsible for drawing up the government's legislative programme. The Legislation Committee makes the final decision as to whether a proposal will be presented to Parliament for scrutiny by MPs and peers."

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By *entaur_UKMan
over a year ago

Cannock

"You need to read it again!

No one needs to do anything you say

Too true! I can't order anyone to be enlightened. At best, I can offer them a candle and a match.

But the dark is so comforting!

Are you enlightened about the anti semitism in the Labour party yet? You went very quiet on here when all that was going on.

Maybe you like being in the dark about that though?

So, as I've proved you completely wrong on this topic, you now want to return to another topic I proved you completely wrong on to try to obscure the point?

Centaur, you never change!

You've not proved shit on this thread apart from confirm to everyone how undemocratic the EU is.

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By *iamondjoeMan
over a year ago

Glastonbury

"If you look closely, black is in fact white."

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By *dwalu2Couple
over a year ago

Bristol

"You need to read it again!

No one needs to do anything you say

Too true! I can't order anyone to be enlightened. At best, I can offer them a candle and a match.

But the dark is so comforting!

Are you enlightened about the anti semitism in the Labour party yet? You went very quiet on here when all that was going on.

Maybe you like being in the dark about that though?

So, as I've proved you completely wrong on this topic, you now want to return to another topic I proved you completely wrong on to try to obscure the point?

Centaur, you never change!

You've not proved shit on this thread apart from confirm to everyone how undemocratic the EU is.

And now you lose your temper in frustration...a tale as old as time!

Night night Centaur!

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By *dwalu2Couple
over a year ago

Bristol

""If you look closely, black is in fact white."

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By *entaur_UKMan
over a year ago

Cannock

"You need to read it again!

No one needs to do anything you say

Too true! I can't order anyone to be enlightened. At best, I can offer them a candle and a match.

But the dark is so comforting!

Are you enlightened about the anti semitism in the Labour party yet? You went very quiet on here when all that was going on.

Maybe you like being in the dark about that though?

So, as I've proved you completely wrong on this topic, you now want to return to another topic I proved you completely wrong on to try to obscure the point?

Centaur, you never change!

You've not proved shit on this thread apart from confirm to everyone how undemocratic the EU is.

And now you lose your temper in frustration...a tale as old as time!

Night night Centaur!

Who is losing their temper?

Certainly not me, calm as calm can be here.

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By *entaur_UKMan
over a year ago

Cannock

""If you look closely, black is in fact white."

Yes your profile photo is black and white.

Next.

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By *oncupiscentTonyMan
over a year ago

Kent

Jesus the barrack room lawyers are out, most of it is beyond parody to the point it feels like I've slipped into an Armando Ianucci satire...and at least one person is impossible to read without hearing Partridge

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"New laws are proposed by the Commission, which is not elected.

But isn't the Commission made up of the leaders of each EU state?

No, there is 1 from each EU country but they are not elected or even chosen by us. They are not the leaders of the countries either.

Usually failed politicians from their home countries like Neil Kinnock and Peter Mandelson.

I thought failed politicians ran as UKIP candidates. there changed every five years ..unlike the house of lords it isn't a job for life ..so a little more democratic than our system ...."

So is Trigger's brush handle

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

It is about this country choosing to remove itself from an organisation, the EU as a governing body, that does not operate with the best interests of this country at heart.

I love Europe, the countries, the people, I've lived there, have friends there and I even speak French. Plus a teeny bit of Italian, German and Polish.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gILTIDr4Ra8

I hope you will consider democracy and not 'political correctness' in your choice

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By *ost SockMan
over a year ago

West Wales and Cardiff

Thank you for this information and enlightening others.

I understand the structure and workings of the EU, having studied it closely at university and worked in jobs that have dealt with the behemoth on a daily basis.

I've seen the good and the bad at close quarters.

I hope with all my being we vote to stay in tomorrow.

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By *otlovefun42Couple
over a year ago

Costa Blanca Spain...

Must admit I liked this one.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vTCIwo3cEvU

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By *arry247Couple
over a year ago

Wakefield

let’s get the facts straight this free market which people talk about is not free.

The cost of us being in the EU (after taking account of the rebate etc.) is equivalent of having a trade tariff of 7% on all trade we do with the EU.

If we come out of the EU the worse case scenario would be WTO tariffs which are currently averaging between 6.3% and 3.8%.

This means that even if we cannot negotiate a better deal we will be trading at an advantage to the costs of trading today

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Jesus the barrack room lawyers are out, most of it is beyond parody to the point it feels like I've slipped into an Armando Ianucci satire...and at least one person is impossible to read without hearing Partridge "

Just one?

I think we've slipped into a netherworld. I can only hope that we wake up on Friday to find the effects of whatever they've put in the water supplies of half the population has worn off, and we have stepped away from the brink of utter madness.

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By *an_WoodMan
over a year ago

Stafford

I would say it's better to get out now. The former governor of the bank of England Sir Mervyn King said the Eurozone is doomed to failure. If we stay in then the EU will drag us down with it. "

That's dumb logic. In or out if the eurozone fails we are screwed by the need to export. And as you know we are not in the Euro !

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By *iamondjoeMan
over a year ago

Glastonbury

Yep, odds still drifting on Brexit...

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By *iamondjoeMan
over a year ago

Glastonbury

Remain: Latest EU referendum odds

3-10 (0.3) Betfair Exchange, Betdaq and Matchbook are most sceptical about a win for Remain

1-4 (0.25) Bet365, SkyBet, BoyleSports, Betfred, Sportingbet, Paddy Power, Stan James, Ladbrokes, Coral

2-9 (0.22) BetVictor, 888sport, SportsWinner, William Hill, Betfair, Unibet, 32Red

3-14 (0.21) Marathon are most convinced the UK will Remain in Europe

Leave: Latest EU referendum odds

11-4 (2.75) Skybet, SportingBet, Coral,

14-5 (2.8) 32Red Matchbook

37-13 (2.85) 888sport, Betfair Exchange, Betdaq, Unibet,

3-1 (3) Bet365, Boyle Sports, Betfred, BetVictor, Paddy Power, Stan James, Ladbrokes, William Hill, SportsWinner, Betfair,

Odds from oddschecker at 8.45am on Tuesday 21 June.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

What do you mean were STAYING in Europe...wtf!.... Can I retract my postal vote

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By *abioMan
over a year ago

Newcastle and Gateshead

ladies and gentleman... i give my the much anticapated john oliver piece he does on brexit for his "last week tonight" programme.....

it would normally have been shown here on monday... but... because of the impartiality rules, it can't be shown here at the moment.... so the cheeky scamps at skay atlantic have scheduled it for 10 minutes after the voting closes on thursday....

any.... here is the take....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iAgKHSNqxa8

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By *LCCCouple
over a year ago

Cambridge

Well when one side says not to listen to the experts, what else is left?

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By *educedWoman
over a year ago

Birmingham

Sorry to break the news but you cannot vote ‘England’ tomorrow.

You can vote for what we have, what we can already feel and touch.

Or you can choose Scottish independence, the destruction of supply chains, the loss of jobs, a decade of uncertainty, a downgrading of the pound, and to send a message to the 3 million European immigrants already settled in the United Kingdom that we blame them for austerity Britain.

You cannot vote ‘England’ tomorrow, but only one of the options above is genuinely synonymous with patriotism.

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By *arker66Man
over a year ago

Manchester

It is about this country choosing to remove itself from an organisation, the EU as a governing body, that does not operate with the best interests of this country at heart.

I love Europe, the countries, the people, I've lived there, have friends there and I even speak French. Plus a teeny bit of Italian, German and Polish.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gILTIDr4Ra8

I hope you will consider democracy and not 'political correctness' in your choice

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Sorry to break the news but you cannot vote ‘England’ tomorrow.

You can vote for what we have, what we can already feel and touch.

You cannot vote ‘England’ tomorrow, but only one of the options above is genuinely synonymous with patriotism."

yo can not vote for what we have. Change will come either way

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By *entaur_UKMan
over a year ago

Cannock

"What do you mean were STAYING in Europe...wtf!.... Can I retract my postal vote"

We are leaving this corrupt, undemocratic, bureaucratic, political and social experiment gone horribly wrong, wannabe superstate, called the EU.

We are staying in Europe though.

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By *an_WoodMan
over a year ago

Stafford

"What do you mean were STAYING in Europe...wtf!.... Can I retract my postal vote

We are leaving this corrupt, undemocratic, bureaucratic, political and social experiment gone horribly wrong, wannabe superstate, called the EU.

We are staying in Europe though. "

Sounds like the UKIP party machine. Vote remain

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"As the EU's democracy is essentially a scaled up version of the democracy we have here in Britain, what is it that people don't like about it? "

Did you get a chance to vote for leader of the EU? Because I sure as hell didn't! So where is this democracy you're talking about?

-Ads

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