FabSwingers.com forum: EU REMAIN

By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

Would a remain vote in the EU referendum mean carry on as normal?

Same as what we have today, huge 1.7 trillion dept. which continues to rise, UK poverty, disgraceful unmaintained roads & public transport, poor education & schooling, failing NHS, open doors immigration , continuation of unemployment and low pay, shocking welfare support

That’s what we have just now and much worse in various UK locations, why will things change? Or will they just continue to get worse?

I guess we are all in the hands and mercy of what Brussels decides for us

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Yes nothing will change if we remain.the eu make the rules and we have to abide by them.where I live its ridiculous there is mass immigration and where I work its low paid and half the staff are foreign. The owners of these type of businesses will never pay a decent wage cus they know theres a steady influx of immigrants coming into the area who are willing to work for this money, as it is much more than back in their home country.I also had to take my mother upto a and e a while ago and it was ridiculous. Waiting on a stretcher in a corridor for nearly five hours before being seen by a nurse.it will only get worse if we remain.

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By *enard ArgenteMan
over a year ago

London and France

Don't blame immigration or the EU for the collapse of the NHS:

That's entirely due to successive UK governments fucking it up for the last 20+ years

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

"Don't blame immigration or the EU for the collapse of the NHS:

That's entirely due to successive UK governments fucking it up for the last 20+ years"

no blame intended, just wondering if things will stay the same as now which is fairly poor

or will we continue on a downward spiral?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

We have an open door policy on immigration and cant do anything cus of European law.I never thought id agree with boris johnson but the points system on immigration is the most sensible thing any politician as ever come out with

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By *iss_tressWoman
over a year ago

London

"Don't blame immigration or the EU for the collapse of the NHS:

That's entirely due to successive UK governments fucking it up for the last 20+ years"

You're wasting your breath, for some it will always be easier to blame Johnny Foreigner for their life's ills than the government for mismanagement etc in the nhs and other public services.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

The status quo is NOT an option. Things will NOT remain the same if we remain.

The rest of the EU will move towards ever closer union and single government from Brussels. Cameron has "negotiated" an opt out of the future treaties that will bring this about...what he got was an agreement to discuss this.

The Euro will continue to need to be bailed out regularly....we DO pay towards this even tho we are not in it.

At some point Turkey and other, basically third world, countries will join at some point (we are paying additional money to accelerate this) so millions more will be eligible to come here.

Future migrants MAY be stopped from claiming tax credits when they come here through our leaky borders. Again Dave only secured an agreement to discuss this...nothing written in stone.

We will be dragged into the disastrous TTIP arrangements which gives American private companies full licence to asset strip our NHS and many other companies.

I'm sure I , or many others, could go on adding to the list.

The simple fact is things will not remain the same...they will continue to spiral ever further down into the inevitable catastrophe that awaits the EU.

The final outcome is how I see it....but like both sides of the debate I figured...sod it. Just state everything as fact...regardless.

(But it IS fact that plenty change in the EU....a news article the other week in Brussels covered several changes that have been "put on hold" by the commission so as not to affect the referendum vote here....as they would scare people to vote out)

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

To the government, its a nice well paid job for the boys and girls on the euro gravy train, im out, we dont need the eu, the eu is going to collapse eventually

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Don't forget that the auditors haven't signed off the cosy EU Mafia's accounts for fifteen years running!!! And if we stay in we'll be bailing out all the other collapsing EU economies!

And if we do vote leave we get the added bonus of getting rid of serial Oxbridge liars and traitors like Osborne and Cameron.

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By *ophieslutTV/TS
over a year ago

Central

"Don't blame immigration or the EU for the collapse of the NHS:

That's entirely due to successive UK governments fucking it up for the last 20+ years"

Exactly. The current government is deliberately underfunding it.

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By *ophieslutTV/TS
over a year ago

Central

Stating that Turkey will join is nonsense. Any one EU country can stop it. In any event they are not even fit to have the mainland Europe visas issued atm. Total bollocks.

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By *enard ArgenteMan
over a year ago

London and France

As for the TTIP: the UK Government has been trying to do that for years; without safeguards; and the U.K. Introduced TTIP to the EU ( under pressure from the US)

It is the EU that has imposed safeguards that the UK didn't want,

And also inserted clauses that individual countries can exclude various areas from TTIP if they wish; under TTIP as renegotiated by the EU, anything we wish to safeguard or ring fence , we can.

Whereas the UK was going to just allow TTIP to have total control and no oversight.

And if we leave, UK will do its own TTIP deal, and remove all safeguards.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Stating that Turkey will join is nonsense. Any one EU country can stop it. In any event they are not even fit to have the mainland Europe visas issued atm. Total bollocks."

That's exactly what Cameron said. So given that he is a pathological liar you can guarantee it will happen.

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By *arry247Couple
over a year ago

Wakefield

One thing that should be remembered is the EU has plans to take control of a number of taxes.

This should have been debated this week but has been put back until September due to the referendum.

If/when accepted it will mean the EU deciding on how high various taxes are and those taxes going straight to the EU coffers rather than the Government coffers meaning less money for things such as schools and NHS.

It should be said that UK MEPs can vote against such a move but in most cases such moves go as the EU plan.

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

"Don't forget that the auditors haven't signed off the cosy EU Mafia's accounts for fifteen years running!!! And if we stay in we'll be bailing out all the other collapsing EU economies!

And if we do vote leave we get the added bonus of getting rid of serial Oxbridge liars and traitors like Osborne and Cameron. "

That may not be true

Cameron said on the Andrew Marr show last Sunday that if a Leave vote won; he would stay on as PM and honour leave voters intentions

you can watch again on iplayer

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Don't blame immigration or the EU for the collapse of the NHS:

That's entirely due to successive UK governments fucking it up for the last 20+ years

You're wasting your breath, for some it will always be easier to blame Johnny Foreigner for their life's ills than the government for mismanagement etc in the nhs and other public services.

Absolutely right

I've run enough successful businesses over the years to know that one has to project and invest wisely , or collapse is inevitable .

Not one government has done this with the nhs .

It's a no brainer that as the population grows , and people live longer that more staff and resources will be required . So what do governments do ?

Cut taxes , allow the rich to get richer and save money by lowering benefits to those who need them most . Thus creating more illness , more expense for the already underfunded nhs , and now we are blaming eu membership ?

At least with the freedom of movement the Euro membership offers , other European nationalities can help our hospitals and care facilities with affordable labour .

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

"Don't blame immigration or the EU for the collapse of the NHS:

That's entirely due to successive UK governments fucking it up for the last 20+ years

You're wasting your breath, for some it will always be easier to blame Johnny Foreigner for their life's ills than the government for mismanagement etc in the nhs and other public services.

Absolutely right

I've run enough successful businesses over the years to know that one has to project and invest wisely , or collapse is inevitable .

Not one government has done this with the nhs .

It's a no brainer that as the population grows , and people live longer that more staff and resources will be required . So what do governments do ?

so you are crucifying the same government that is advising us to remain in the EU?

is that what you are saying

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By *ophieslutTV/TS
over a year ago

Central

"Stating that Turkey will join is nonsense. Any one EU country can stop it. In any event they are not even fit to have the mainland Europe visas issued atm. Total bollocks.

That's exactly what Cameron said. So given that he is a pathological liar you can guarantee it will happen."

Cameron and Johnson have clear histories of being liars.

But the EU membership rules are 100% clear.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Don't blame immigration or the EU for the collapse of the NHS:

That's entirely due to successive UK governments fucking it up for the last 20+ years

You're wasting your breath, for some it will always be easier to blame Johnny Foreigner for their life's ills than the government for mismanagement etc in the nhs and other public services.

Absolutely right

I've run enough successful businesses over the years to know that one has to project and invest wisely , or collapse is inevitable .

Not one government has done this with the nhs .

It's a no brainer that as the population grows , and people live longer that more staff and resources will be required . So what do governments do ?

so you are crucifying the same government that is advising us to remain in the EU?

is that what you are saying"

No , I'm crucifying every government over the past 25 years .

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

"Don't blame immigration or the EU for the collapse of the NHS:

That's entirely due to successive UK governments fucking it up for the last 20+ years

You're wasting your breath, for some it will always be easier to blame Johnny Foreigner for their life's ills than the government for mismanagement etc in the nhs and other public services.

Absolutely right

I've run enough successful businesses over the years to know that one has to project and invest wisely , or collapse is inevitable .

Not one government has done this with the nhs .

It's a no brainer that as the population grows , and people live longer that more staff and resources will be required . So what do governments do ?

so you are crucifying the same government that is advising us to remain in the EU?

is that what you are saying

No , I'm crucifying every government over the past 25 years .

and each of these parties have members that have been MP's for 25 years or more, all of whom are advising us to stay in EU

is that good trusted advice?

do you believe

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By *enard ArgenteMan
over a year ago

London and France

"Don't blame immigration or the EU for the collapse of the NHS:

That's entirely due to successive UK governments fucking it up for the last 20+ years

You're wasting your breath, for some it will always be easier to blame Johnny Foreigner for their life's ills than the government for mismanagement etc in the nhs and other public services.

Absolutely right

I've run enough successful businesses over the years to know that one has to project and invest wisely , or collapse is inevitable .

Not one government has done this with the nhs .

It's a no brainer that as the population grows , and people live longer that more staff and resources will be required . So what do governments do ?

so you are crucifying the same government that is advising us to remain in the EU?

is that what you are saying"

That's two different arguments. And a non sequitur.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Don't blame immigration or the EU for the collapse of the NHS:

That's entirely due to successive UK governments fucking it up for the last 20+ years

You're wasting your breath, for some it will always be easier to blame Johnny Foreigner for their life's ills than the government for mismanagement etc in the nhs and other public services.

Absolutely right

I've run enough successful businesses over the years to know that one has to project and invest wisely , or collapse is inevitable .

Not one government has done this with the nhs .

It's a no brainer that as the population grows , and people live longer that more staff and resources will be required . So what do governments do ?

so you are crucifying the same government that is advising us to remain in the EU?

is that what you are saying

No , I'm crucifying every government over the past 25 years .

and each of these parties have members that have been MP's for 25 years or more, all of whom are advising us to stay in EU

is that good trusted advice?

do you believe "

Not one bit , no .

What I do believe is this - I wouldn't trust any politician who claims he has the best interests of us all in mind , and ignores the plight of the nhs , while finding money to wage war across the world .

Ironically I will be voting out on Thursday , but not for this reason .

I actually think we may see a future government who may look at the nhs and other vital services in a new light if we leave . The private health care sector is continually growing , so some amalgamation would be a good thing . If we stay in the eu I don't think this will happen .

Same with private security firms .

While we have saved billions on cutting our own civil service paperwork etc.... We've spent billions more on eu paperwork , and unelected mep's .

So I think we will hopefully do more for those who need it most out of the eu than it .

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By *isty286Couple
over a year ago

Dorset

At least reading through this thread, I can now see that others have noticed the coming collapse of the union, its had its day, I believe we should be unhitching ourselves from this unhealthy bunch of self serving wealth plundering vampires, and throw Cameron too them as we leave, that man can't open his mouth without a torrent of lies pouring out ... (And breathe !!! ) rant over ..lol

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By *ethnmelvCouple
over a year ago

Cardiff

Already voted! But just to cver the OPs point - if the EU spiral of doom is indeed one, then it will be spinning a lot slower than the Brexit one. At least we will have time to fix it

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Don't blame immigration or the EU for the collapse of the NHS:

That's entirely due to successive UK governments fucking it up for the last 20+ years

You're wasting your breath, for some it will always be easier to blame Johnny Foreigner for their life's ills than the government for mismanagement etc in the nhs and other public services.

Absolutely right

I've run enough successful businesses over the years to know that one has to project and invest wisely , or collapse is inevitable .

Not one government has done this with the nhs .

It's a no brainer that as the population grows , and people live longer that more staff and resources will be required . So what do governments do ?

At least with the freedom of movement the Euro membership offers , other European nationalities can help our hospitals and care facilities with affordable labour .

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Would a remain vote in the EU referendum mean carry on as normal?

That’s what we have just now and much worse in various UK locations, why will things change? Or will they just continue to get worse?

I guess we are all in the hands and mercy of what Brussels decides for us

I hear exactly what you're saying. People are scared of change though I suppose. I always am surprised with that when it comes to living.

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By *ethnmelvCouple
over a year ago

Cardiff

Happy with change. Some people say the grass is always greener, however in this case we are being told by complete charlatans and rogues that the grass exists and we just need to leap over the fence and it will be there to break our fall!

Sorry guys, absolutely nothing compelling in this change. I mean, I wouldn't buy a used car from them, let alone our countries future. So yes, I voted IN as the alternative is simply not tenable.

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

"Don't blame immigration or the EU for the collapse of the NHS:

That's entirely due to successive UK governments fucking it up for the last 20+ years

You're wasting your breath, for some it will always be easier to blame Johnny Foreigner for their life's ills than the government for mismanagement etc in the nhs and other public services.

Absolutely right

I've run enough successful businesses over the years to know that one has to project and invest wisely , or collapse is inevitable .

Not one government has done this with the nhs .

It's a no brainer that as the population grows , and people live longer that more staff and resources will be required . So what do governments do ?

so you are crucifying the same government that is advising us to remain in the EU?

is that what you are saying

No , I'm crucifying every government over the past 25 years .

and each of these parties have members that have been MP's for 25 years or more, all of whom are advising us to stay in EU

is that good trusted advice?

do you believe

Not one bit , no .

Ironically I will be voting out on Thursday , but not for this reason .

Same with private security firms .

While we have saved billions on cutting our own civil service paperwork etc.... We've spent billions more on eu paperwork , and unelected mep's .

So I think we will hopefully do more for those who need it most out of the eu than it ."

fair points, thank you for your comments

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By *ax777Man
over a year ago

Not here

"Don't forget that the auditors haven't signed off the cosy EU Mafia's accounts for fifteen years running!!! And if we stay in we'll be bailing out all the other collapsing EU economies!

And if we do vote leave we get the added bonus of getting rid of serial Oxbridge liars and traitors like Osborne and Cameron. "

Sorry but this is oft pedalled nonsense. The EU accounts have been signed off every year.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"At least reading through this thread, I can now see that others have noticed the coming collapse of the union, its had its day, I believe we should be unhitching ourselves from this unhealthy bunch of self serving wealth plundering vampires, and throw Cameron too them as we leave, that man can't open his mouth without a torrent of lies pouring out ... (And breathe !!! ) rant over ..lol

"
....

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Don't forget that the auditors haven't signed off the cosy EU Mafia's accounts for fifteen years running!!! And if we stay in we'll be bailing out all the other collapsing EU economies!

And if we do vote leave we get the added bonus of getting rid of serial Oxbridge liars and traitors like Osborne and Cameron.

Sorry but this is oft pedalled nonsense. The EU accounts have been signed off every year."

By their OWN auditors. Independent , trusted auditors were dropped because they refused to do so.... So the EU commission simply set up its own.

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By *andemanMan
over a year ago

bedforshire

Ok a couple of things.

1. If this Toryrendum has served any useful porpose at all it is to indicate that more change is neccesary to how we have our say about the issues of concern. Vote Remain and that message is clear.

2. The social cohesion of our own country has been damaged by this, as Swingers we are broad minded people and by definition more excepting and tollorent than many. Yet we still get caught up in this madness about imigrents? Why? Most of the stats given are nonsence and the facts are being ignored they pay more in than they take out,and several industires in Britian will go to the wall without them making the nation poorer. I for one say if you dont want the Hot Raven Haired Romanian chick or the hunky Dane send them to me, all of them sounds like a dam good party to me.

Public services in this country are decided by the Goverment of this country. If you cant get an appointment at the Docs, if you cant get your kid in the school that they want, if there is no Social housing left in your area its becouse the goverment have CUT THE BUDGET. We get what we pay for. Passing the buck to others and blameing them is the lowest form of liying politicians ever do!

Oh and by the way regardless of the fact that the £350 mil figure is wrong what ever we currently pay in, if the economy tanks that money will not be there to invest in any services anyway!

Next if we believe that this country is a strong country rich in history culture and economy than the idea that we are held back dominated or down trodden by the EU is IMPOSSIBLE. Either we are a strong country, in which case the EU CANT hold us back, or we are a Weak country ( i dont believe that by the way) in which case we would collapes outside.

Finally we are NOT in the Euro and never should be so any issue with that currency is NOT our problem. If it collapsed they might just have to ask to join the pound delivering the UK over night leadership of ALL of Europe. Sweet!

The obvious conclusion is Remain. The EU has its faults and needs to change but you cant win a game of footy from the Locker room you have to be on the pitch!

Simples!

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Don't forget that the auditors haven't signed off the cosy EU Mafia's accounts for fifteen years running!!! And if we stay in we'll be bailing out all the other collapsing EU economies!

And if we do vote leave we get the added bonus of getting rid of serial Oxbridge liars and traitors like Osborne and Cameron.

Sorry but this is oft pedalled nonsense. The EU accounts have been signed off every year.

By their OWN auditors. Independent , trusted auditors were dropped because they refused to do so.... So the EU commission simply set up its own."

The European court of auditors has been doing the job since 1977, so if anyone was dropped it was quite a while ago. The Santander commission tried to interfere with the work of the auditors and were chucked out because of that in 1999. That doesnt sound like they're either afraid to demonstrate their independence or challenge the commission, does it?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Santer commission not Santander.

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By *ethnmelvCouple
over a year ago

Cardiff

"Ok a couple of things.

1. If this Toryrendum has served any useful porpose at all it is to indicate that more change is neccesary to how we have our say about the issues of concern. Vote Remain and that message is clear.

Oh and by the way regardless of the fact that the £350 mil figure is wrong what ever we currently pay in, if the economy tanks that money will not be there to invest in any services anyway!

The obvious conclusion is Remain. The EU has its faults and needs to change but you cant win a game of footy from the Locker room you have to be on the pitch!

Simples!"

totally agree with you

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By *abioMan
over a year ago

Newcastle and Gateshead

"Stating that Turkey will join is nonsense. Any one EU country can stop it. In any event they are not even fit to have the mainland Europe visas issued atm. Total bollocks.

That's exactly what Cameron said. So given that he is a pathological liar you can guarantee it will happen."

i said in my last few posts then i would not again campaign again because i think the atmosphere before jo cox's death got way too toxic..... but i would call out BS as and when i saw it...

so..... point of clarification....

re turkey and visa free travel deal....

Turkey missed its own deadline on this... so unless it is renegoiated.. thats off the table

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By *abioMan
over a year ago

Newcastle and Gateshead

"Don't forget that the auditors haven't signed off the cosy EU Mafia's accounts for fifteen years running!!! And if we stay in we'll be bailing out all the other collapsing EU economies!"

BS....... they have been signed off every year

"And if we do vote leave we get the added bonus of getting rid of serial Oxbridge liars and traitors like Osborne and Cameron. "

and replace them oxbridge people like johnson and gove..... gotcha!!!!

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By *abioMan
over a year ago

Newcastle and Gateshead

"One thing that should be remembered is the EU has plans to take control of a number of taxes.

This should have been debated this week but has been put back until September due to the referendum.

It should be said that UK MEPs can vote against such a move but in most cases such moves go as the EU plan."

BS... the uk has a veto over anything monetary (that would come under the monetary and national security veto's)

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By *avidnsa69Man
over a year ago

Essex

"Don't forget that the auditors haven't signed off the cosy EU Mafia's accounts for fifteen years running!!! And if we stay in we'll be bailing out all the other collapsing EU economies!

And if we do vote leave we get the added bonus of getting rid of serial Oxbridge liars and traitors like Osborne and Cameron. "

Check your facts. The EU accounts have been signed off every year!

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Don't forget that the auditors haven't signed off the cosy EU Mafia's accounts for fifteen years running!!! And if we stay in we'll be bailing out all the other collapsing EU economies!

And if we do vote leave we get the added bonus of getting rid of serial Oxbridge liars and traitors like Osborne and Cameron.

Sorry but this is oft pedalled nonsense. The EU accounts have been signed off every year.

By their OWN auditors. Independent , trusted auditors were dropped because they refused to do so.... So the EU commission simply set up its own.

European Court of Auditors....signing themselves off.....imagine a company being allowed to get away with that....its a joke!

Just been watching Sunday Politics......Caroline Lucas....REMAIN campaigner and ex MEP has just stated (at 11.35am) that "we know the EU accounts haven't bern signed off for many years"....her excuse....? "the EU doesn't have a monopoly on corruption! So that's an excuse?

So as far as accounts go.... I rest my case

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By *ax777Man
over a year ago

Not here

"Don't forget that the auditors haven't signed off the cosy EU Mafia's accounts for fifteen years running!!! And if we stay in we'll be bailing out all the other collapsing EU economies!

And if we do vote leave we get the added bonus of getting rid of serial Oxbridge liars and traitors like Osborne and Cameron.

Sorry but this is oft pedalled nonsense. The EU accounts have been signed off every year.

By their OWN auditors. Independent , trusted auditors were dropped because they refused to do so.... So the EU commission simply set up its own."

Who were the trusted auditors that were dropped and when?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Don't forget that the auditors haven't signed off the cosy EU Mafia's accounts for fifteen years running!!! And if we stay in we'll be bailing out all the other collapsing EU economies!

And if we do vote leave we get the added bonus of getting rid of serial Oxbridge liars and traitors like Osborne and Cameron.

Sorry but this is oft pedalled nonsense. The EU accounts have been signed off every year.

By their OWN auditors. Independent , trusted auditors were dropped because they refused to do so.... So the EU commission simply set up its own.

European Court of Auditors....signing themselves off.....imagine a company being allowed to get away with that....its a joke!

So as far as accounts go.... I rest my case"
....

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By *hetalkingstoveMan
over a year ago

London

"And if we do vote leave we get the added bonus of getting rid of serial Oxbridge liars and traitors like Osborne and Cameron. "

And replace them with Boris, who would do anything for his own career.

Vote leave, get Boris as PM. No thanks.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Mass Immigration is why the Remain camp have lost pure and simply. It has pushed wages down, it has created divided towns and cities up and down the country. Towns like Spalding and Shirebrook were not designed for a mass influx. People will vote on what they see as affecting them directly and if you feel unsafe or uncomfortable in your own town centre because of gangs of migrant working men hanging about there then you will vote OUT. I am fed up with the anti-racist argument on this - what IS racist is having an invading foreign 'army' taking over your town and changing your way of life. This is the REALITY people are seeing in small towns but I guess most of you just don't get out and about enough.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Don't forget that the auditors haven't signed off the cosy EU Mafia's accounts for fifteen years running!!! And if we stay in we'll be bailing out all the other collapsing EU economies!

And if we do vote leave we get the added bonus of getting rid of serial Oxbridge liars and traitors like Osborne and Cameron.

Sorry but this is oft pedalled nonsense. The EU accounts have been signed off every year.

By their OWN auditors. Independent , trusted auditors were dropped because they refused to do so.... So the EU commission simply set up its own.

European Court of Auditors....signing themselves off.....imagine a company being allowed to get away with that....its a joke!

So as far as accounts go.... I rest my case"

Before you raised the Lucas smoke screen what you said was "Independent , trusted auditors were dropped because they refused to do so.... So the EU commission simply set up its own."

That's untrue. It doesn't suddenly become true if you add more untruths to it. Just as the tale about the accounts not being signed off was untrue and doesn't suddenly become true by adding more untruths to it.

The auditors haven't been replaced in 40 years and it was an attempt to mislead people by saying they had been replaced.

The auditors are independent and it's a fact that that they caused the end of the Santer commission and quite rightly so.

That you feel they aren't independent is your problem - although it's a pretty good bet that you would be quite willing to misquote their conclusions if you think it fits your case.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

How are "the European Court of Auditors" independent.....? They were set up in 1977 by the EU commissioners because no independent auditors would touch the accounts.

A leading remain campaigner and ex MEP has just stated on TV that they have not been passed independently......go check on iPlayer if you like. Caroline Lucas is not a smoke screen....she is a leader of the remain campaign, not just someone posting on here and has just stated this as fact.

As I said...I rest my case. it isn't my, or anyone else's opinion.

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

a 20% cut in home fuel bills will be a good start

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

If we vote to leave the EU every major expert indicates that we will have economic uncertainty and potentially a recession. The last recession resulted in pretty much a doubling of UK national debt, with trillions of pounds of debt created to bail out banks. So one of the benefits of remaining in will be avaoiding that self imposed uncertainty and recession. The Brexit tax will be the price we all pay for a few nice jongoistic sound bites.

I know the OP agrees that this uncertainty and potential recession will happen because he's preparing for it - he was telling us all on another thread how he'll make money out of speculating on shares and had an exciting discussion about making money out of buying gold and rolexes. Forgive me if, given that, I suspect that those fears about the economy are crocodile tears.

As for unemployment, it's at its lowest levels for years, something I'll be quite happy to see continuing. I know that must be true because I've seen plenty of pro-Brexit posts boasting about it when comparing UK and EU unemployment.

Not only is unemployment at low levels, employment is at its highest levels and there are 700000 plus vacancies available at any one time. Most people looking at UK employment describe it as close to full employment and much of British industry and the service sector tell you that they need migrants to continue growing. The OP would have British firms filling in forms to justify getting much needed workers rather than focus on contributing to the economy - he'd promise us more bureaucracy and bureaucrats and can't be reformed on that.

As far as pay is concerned, real pay has increased by 17% since 2000 - even allowing for the real falls caused by the 2008 recession. That includes all those sectors where people say immigrants are pulling wages down - if they are taking all the low paid jobs and pushing those wages down, the rest of you are doing alright out of it

Finally OP, thanks for throwing in the comment on 'shocking welfare support'. After all it was supposed to be welfare that was the big magnet pulling immigrants in. But if it's shocking, and now even more shocking for immigrants given Cameron's negotiated changes, I guess we'll stop hearing that lie from you.

Here we are in the country with the 5th largest GDP in the world with growing employment and growing wages. Let's keep that and let's hope that we avoid Brexit, its uncertainty and recession that will blow away employment and wages. Except of course for those who are speculating on shares and gold and rolexes and don't give a damn about poor people other than as political pawns.

[For those who want to quibble about numbers you can check mine in the most recent ONS labour force survey]

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"How are "the European Court of Auditors" independent.....? They were set up in 1977 by the EU commissioners because no independent auditors would touch the accounts.

As I said...I rest my case. it isn't my, or anyone else's opinion."

As I said, you can look up the facts but won't bother. I'll stick with the other people here who know what they are talking about and have bothered to find out the truth. Just repeating the same old Brexit lies may work for you all in this vote, but it'll be to the cost of this country.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Stating that Turkey will join is nonsense. Any one EU country can stop it. In any event they are not even fit to have the mainland Europe visas issued atm. Total bollocks.

That's exactly what Cameron said. So given that he is a pathological liar you can guarantee it will happen.

i said in my last few posts then i would not again campaign again because i think the atmosphere before jo cox's death got way too toxic..... but i would call out BS as and when i saw it...

Turkey has been relentlessly bombing its Kurdish population for several months now...hundreds if not thousands have been killed and injured in a war zone but it doesn't seem to be reported on in the EU!? Erdogan also gives safety and succour to members of the Islamic State on Turkish territory!

Erdogan has now repealed the laws preventing criticism of himself so he can prosecute MPs he doesn't like and there are hundreds of journalists in prisons awaiting trial for criticising him.

So given the level of human rights obsession by EU politicians and in the media you would expect the EU to have nothing to do with this islamo-fascist state but my argument is that not only has the EU given Turkey over 6 billion Euros to pocket, Merkel and other EU leaders and politicians have grovelled before the would-be Ottoman Emperor, stifled news reporting of his country's war crimes against the Kurds and assistance to Islamic State and has trumped human rights breaches with its PC obsession with islam and its (hidden) agenda to have a muslim country as a member state... and continue to flood Europe with cheap labour to keep the bankers and the politicians in their pockets happy.

But if you say the EU accounts have been signed off by fully paid up employees... of the EU, then of course I believe you. In fact it reminds me of the time when Goldman Sachs cleared the Greek economy for EU membership!?

Anyway, I did enjoy your BS, keep it up!

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

Some good comments and its pleasing to read that the vast majority of comments here are intending to Vote Leave on the 23rd

continue to vote leave if you have not already done so via postal vote

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"How are "the European Court of Auditors" independent.....? They were set up in 1977 by the EU commissioners because no independent auditors would touch the accounts.

As I said...I rest my case. it isn't my, or anyone else's opinion.

They are not "brexit" lies.....they were directly from the mouth of a leading remain campaigner.... Now who is ignoring the truth??

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"How are "the European Court of Auditors" independent.....? They were set up in 1977 by the EU commissioners because no independent auditors would touch the accounts.

As I said...I rest my case. it isn't my, or anyone else's opinion.

They are not "brexit" lies.....they were directly from the mouth of a leading remain campaigner.... Now who is ignoring the truth??"

What you wrote was "By their OWN auditors. Independent , trusted auditors were dropped because they refused to do so.... So the EU commission simply set up its own."

That's a lie. I'm not concerned with the rest of your smoke screen.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

hundreds if not thousands have been killed and injured in a war zone but it doesn't seem to be reported on in the EU!

You should try the Guardian, the Independent, the BBC and Reuters as a starter for ten. They've all reported on it.

Fabio needs to emerge with his BS detector again.

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By *inky-MinxWoman
over a year ago

Grantham

"Don't blame immigration or the EU for the collapse of the NHS:

That's entirely due to successive UK governments fucking it up for the last 20+ years

You're wasting your breath, for some it will always be easier to blame Johnny Foreigner for their life's ills than the government for mismanagement etc in the nhs and other public services.

I realise it's off topic but I believe the NHS has been badly managed internally over the years. Funding has been squandered in the wrong places.

It's certainly not any immigrant's fault.

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By *inky-MinxWoman
over a year ago

Grantham

This gives a nice summary of what the EU itself is.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gILTIDr4Ra8

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By *anchestercubMan
over a year ago

manchester & NI

OMG!

The Mail on Sunday is backing Remain.

I'm gobsmacked at the irony.

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By *B9 QueenWoman
over a year ago

Over the rainbow, under the bridge

Remain:

Former British Prime Ministers Gordon Brown, Tony Blair and John Major (1 – see Sources below)

The Labour party (2)

Every other major UK political party leader including Nicola Sturgeon (3)

Barack Obama (4)

Hillary Clinton (5)

Angela Merkel (6)

Stephen Hawking and 83% of scientists (7)

Sir Richard Branson (8)

40 religious leaders (9)

300 leading historians (10)

The Trades Union Congress and our six largest trades unions (11)

88% of economists (12)

The National Farmers Union (13)

The Bank of England (14)

The Chief Executive of NHS England (15)

The Royal College of Midwives (16)

Multiple businesses including Ford Motor Company (17) and Rolls Royce (18)

Leave:

The Sun Newspaper

The BNP

The UKIP Party

Nigel Farage

Boris Johnson

Michael Gove

Donald Trump

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

DB9; you missed out Bob Geldof to your remain campaign

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By *B9 QueenWoman
over a year ago

Over the rainbow, under the bridge

"DB9; you missed out Bob Geldof to your remain campaign

I didn't think he was particularly important.

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By *anchestercubMan
over a year ago

manchester & NI

"DB9; you missed out Bob Geldof to your remain campaign

I didn't think he was particularly important. "

He can play guitar in the background

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

"DB9; you missed out Bob Geldof to your remain campaign

I didn't think he was particularly important. "

similar to your post

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By *anchestercubMan
over a year ago

manchester & NI

"DB9; you missed out Bob Geldof to your remain campaign

I didn't think he was particularly important.

similar to your post

And yours are spun gold?

What arrogance.

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By *lorious hole bs16Man
over a year ago

Bristol

You missed out the Sunday times in the leave side....

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By *B9 QueenWoman
over a year ago

Over the rainbow, under the bridge

"DB9; you missed out Bob Geldof to your remain campaign

I didn't think he was particularly important.

similar to your post

Your opinion which is meaningless to me.

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By *LCCCouple
over a year ago

Cambridge

"Would a remain vote in the EU referendum mean carry on as normal?

That’s what we have just now and much worse in various UK locations, why will things change? Or will they just continue to get worse?

I guess we are all in the hands and mercy of what Brussels decides for us

I think the UK is a great country, you obviously see it as a horrible, failing country. As the 5th largest economy in the world, i think we are doing pretty well.

If yiu don't like the UK, why dont you tell us which country is better and then go and live there?

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By *inky-MinxWoman
over a year ago

Grantham

And the Spectator.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Don't blame immigration or the EU for the collapse of the NHS:

That's entirely due to successive UK governments fucking it up for the last 20+ years"

Absolutely this.

The only reason the NHS is in a state is over 30 years of continuous underfunding from Thatchers govt, Blairs Red Tory govt, and Cammos bunch of thugs

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Leave:

The Sun Newspaper

The BNP

The UKIP Party

Nigel Farage

Boris Johnson

Michael Gove

Donald Trump"

Says it all.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Reckon remain will be free light for eurocrats to go for broke,free movement of transport will mean even more was euros living in trucks in laybys over week ends,removing cabotage rules will ruin what's left of uk transport industry,just one example imho

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By *entaur_UKMan
over a year ago

Cannock

Yesterday Lord Guthrie, who was the last chief of Defence Staff, and former Remain campaigner and supporter, switched sides and now backs the Leave campaign. He says he will be voting Leave on Thursday because he believes Britain will be stronger, safer and more secure outside of the EU.

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06/17/field-marshal-lord-guthrie-why-i-now-back-the-leave-campaign/

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By *LCCCouple
over a year ago

Cambridge

"Yesterday Lord Guthrie, who was the last chief of Defence Staff, and former Remain campaigner and supporter, switched sides and now backs the Leave campaign. He says he will be voting Leave on Thursday because he believes Britain will be stronger, safer and more secure outside of the EU.

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06/17/field-marshal-lord-guthrie-why-i-now-back-the-leave-campaign/"

Actually he retired in 2001 so wasn't the last chief of defence staff.

I think most if to all other chiefs of the defense staff all back remain.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

As Johnson said, there is no economic security without democracy.

If a government makes a mistake it can either put things right or be replaced.

The EU have made loads of mistakes, especially the Euro and what happens? What can we do? Nothing, they just carry on.

Doesn't a democracy need at least 2 sides? Who is the opposition to the EU commission?

Most of us will be worse off if we remain

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By *LCCCouple
over a year ago

Cambridge

Also OP, if we are such a crappy country with a rubbish NHS, high unemployment, low wages, poor schools etc. Then why do we have immigration and people wanting to come here?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06/17/field-marshal-lord-guthrie-why-i-now-back-the-leave-campaign/"

As have some of the previous M15/6 Chiefs. Not the current ones tho...they know which side their bread is buttered on!

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Leave:

The Sun Newspaper

The BNP

The UKIP Party

Nigel Farage

Boris Johnson

Michael Gove

Donald Trump

Says it all.

Remain

Tony Blair (the nation's favourite war criminal)

Says it all.

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

"DB9; you missed out Bob Geldof to your remain campaign

I didn't think he was particularly important.

similar to your post

And yours are spun gold?

What arrogance. "

yes possibly

unpleasantly proud and behaving as if you are more important than, or know more than, other people

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Don't blame immigration or the EU for the collapse of the NHS:

That's entirely due to successive UK governments fucking it up for the last 20+ years

Exactly. The current government is deliberately underfunding it. "

I agree

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By *inky-MinxWoman
over a year ago

Grantham

" Who is the opposition to the EU commission?"

There is no opposition, they are unelected and no one can remove them.

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By *LCCCouple
over a year ago

Cambridge

Remain:

Steven Hawking

IMF

NATO

WTO

Bank of England

The Royal Society

Multiple Nobel Prize winning economists

MI5 & MI6

CIA

NSA

The all the heads of the CIA, NSA, Federal Reserve and US Secretaries of State since the 1970s.

Head of NHS England

Unite, Unison and GMB

But what would they know huh?

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By *B9 QueenWoman
over a year ago

Over the rainbow, under the bridge

Leave:

The Sun Newspaper

The BNP

The UKIP Party

Nigel Farage

Boris Johnson

Michael Gove

Donald Trump

Says it all.

Remain

Tony Blair (the nation's favourite war criminal)

Says it all. "

That's one. What about the others?

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By *entaur_UKMan
over a year ago

Cannock

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06/17/field-marshal-lord-guthrie-why-i-now-back-the-leave-campaign/

Actually he retired in 2001 so wasn't the last chief of defence staff.

I think most if to all other chiefs of the defense staff all back remain. "

General Michael Rose, Major General Julian Thompson, Back Leave along with the veterans for Brexit group.

www.itv.com/news/2016-05-25/senior-military-officers-encourage-army-to-back-brexit/

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By *icecouple561Couple
Forum Mod
over a year ago

East Sussex

I'm not really interested in "who" is backing either side but I am interested in the reasons "why" they hold the opinions they do. It surely makes no sense to base your vote on a personality

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

"I'm not really interested in "who" is backing either side but I am interested in the reasons "why" they hold the opinions they do. It surely makes no sense to base your vote on a personality

believe in yourself, not other people or their spin

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By *entaur_UKMan
over a year ago

Cannock

"Remain:

Steven Hawking

IMF

NATO

WTO

Bank of England

The Royal Society

Multiple Nobel Prize winning economists

MI5 & MI6

CIA

NSA

The all the heads of the CIA, NSA, Federal Reserve and US Secretaries of State since the 1970s.

Head of NHS England

Unite, Unison and GMB

But what would they know huh? "

A few of those get funding from the government and the EU. Is it a case of not wanting to bite the hand that feeds them? However people no longer on the payroll, like former Governor of the bank of England Sir Mervyn King has said the Euro is doomed to failure, the former director general of the CBI Digby Jones backs the Leave campaign, and the former director general of the British chambers of commerce John Longworth back the Leave campaign, they can speak more freely because they are no longer on the payroll of those institutions.

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By *ayd2pinkTV/TS
over a year ago

TENTERDEN

"Don't forget that the auditors haven't signed off the cosy EU Mafia's accounts for fifteen years running!!! And if we stay in we'll be bailing out all the other collapsing EU economies!

And if we do vote leave we get the added bonus of getting rid of serial Oxbridge liars and traitors like Osborne and Cameron.

That may not be true

Cameron said on the Andrew Marr show last Sunday that if a Leave vote won; he would stay on as PM and honour leave voters intentions

you can watch again on iplayer "

I saw that, Cameron was pathetic. How dare he say he will stay if the country tells him they don't like his view. no backbone. We need a strong leader but where are they.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06/17/field-marshal-lord-guthrie-why-i-now-back-the-leave-campaign/

As have some of the previous M15/6 Chiefs. Not the current ones tho...they know which side their bread is buttered on!"

The most recent leaders of MI5 and MI6 came out in favour of remaining:

Sir John Scarlett MI6 2004-2009: head of spy service MI6 recently wrote in The Times that “British agencies…collaborate intimately with their European partners and benefit greatly from their capabilities.”

Lord Evans 2007-2013 head of MI5, Former MI6 boss 2009-2014 Sir John Sawers that the UK would be shut out of decisions on the "crucial" issue of data sharing. We would be less safe if the UK voted to leave, because we would be unable to take part in the decisions that frame the sharing of data, which is a crucial part of counter-terrorism and counter-cyber work that we do these days, and we would lose the abilities of thing like the European Arrest Warrant." He said the UK leaving would also threaten wider European stability, saying: "We are only secure because the wider Europe is secure, pulling out will make it more dangerous."

According to recent heads of MI6 and MI5, people who know: "We are only secure because the wider Europe is secure, pulling out will make it more dangerous." They should know.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-36239741

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By *LCCCouple
over a year ago

Cambridge

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06/17/field-marshal-lord-guthrie-why-i-now-back-the-leave-campaign/

Actually he retired in 2001 so wasn't the last chief of defence staff.

I think most if to all other chiefs of the defense staff all back remain.

General Michael Rose, Major General Julian Thompson, Back Leave along with the veterans for Brexit group.

www.itv.com/news/2016-05-25/senior-military-officers-encourage-army-to-back-brexit/"

General Michael Rose was not a Chief of the Defence (head of all three services)staff, or even Chief of the General Staff (head of the Army) and retired in 1997.

Major-General Julian Thomas also was not a Chief of Defence Staff, or head of the Royal Marines and retired in 1986. Major-General is only a 2 star rank, and all CDS are 4 star ranks.

The current CDS Nick Houghton supports remain, so does of former CDS in reverse chronological order Sir David Richards, Sir Jock Stirrup and Sir Michael Boyce.

Other former CDS are either deceased or haven’t given an opinion on it. There are plenty of other Generals and other senior ranks such as General Sir Mike Jackson, who also support Remain, but there are too many to name.

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By *inky-MinxWoman
over a year ago

Grantham

"I'm not really interested in "who" is backing either side but I am interested in the reasons "why" they hold the opinions they do. It surely makes no sense to base your vote on a personality

believe in yourself, not other people or their spin"

I agree, it's probably about which way these people's bread is buttered

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By *inky-MinxWoman
over a year ago

Grantham

"Other former CDS are either deceased or haven’t given an opinion on it. There are plenty of other Generals and other senior ranks such as General Sir Mike Jackson, who also support Remain, but there are too many to name."

Am I correct in thinking you are saying that we should stay because some military guys say so?

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By *LCCCouple
over a year ago

Cambridge

"Remain:

Steven Hawking

IMF

NATO

WTO

Bank of England

The Royal Society

Multiple Nobel Prize winning economists

MI5 & MI6

CIA

NSA

The all the heads of the CIA, NSA, Federal Reserve and US Secretaries of State since the 1970s.

Head of NHS England

Unite, Unison and GMB

But what would they know huh?

These are independent institutions, if they don’t usually get involved in political debates, but on this issue they have felt strongly enough to come out and stay that it is better to Remain. To say that they are funding by the government and so don’t want to bite the hand that feed them is a bit daft considering that Gove and Boris are IN the Government and are campaigning to leave.

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By *icecouple561Couple
Forum Mod
over a year ago

East Sussex

"I'm not really interested in "who" is backing either side but I am interested in the reasons "why" they hold the opinions they do. It surely makes no sense to base your vote on a personality

believe in yourself, not other people or their spin"

I do. Which is why I avoid these threads usually.

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By *anchestercubMan
over a year ago

manchester & NI

Am I correct in thinking you are saying that we should stay because some military guys say so?"

Some people think we should leave because some military guy called Lord Guthrie says so.

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

"I'm not really interested in "who" is backing either side but I am interested in the reasons "why" they hold the opinions they do. It surely makes no sense to base your vote on a personality

believe in yourself, not other people or their spin

I do. Which is why I avoid these threads usually. "

I think I will stay quiet too

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By *LCCCouple
over a year ago

Cambridge

Am I correct in thinking you are saying that we should stay because some military guys say so?"

No, if all the experts in their respective fields say we should leave, and it was just the military saying we should stay then its probably a good idea to leave.

BUT, if the military are saying militarily its better to stay, the head of NHS England is saying its better for the NHS to stay, The Royal Society are saying its better for research to stay, Unite & Unison & GMB are saying its better for workers rights to stay, Nobel Prize winning economists are saying its better for the economy to stay, MI5 & MI6 & CIA & NSA are saying its better for security to stay, WTO & IMF & Bank of England are saying its better for the economy to stay, RSPB & WWF & Friends of the Earth say its better for the environment that we stay..... then its probably better that we stay.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Our government want to take away our human rights. If we stay in Europe, that becomes much harder.

If we leave we will make closer ties with countries that have atrocious human rights records.

Europe needs big changes. But I trust them more than I trust our own government. Economically, in the long term, it won't make much difference. In the short term, we will be in the shit.

As far as immigration is concerned, most people who come to live in the UK are from outside of Europe. Besides that, I really don't see the problem. We gain economically and culturally from them.

But whatever the result of this referendum, we will all just have to make the best of it.

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By *ouple in LancashireCouple
over a year ago

in Lancashire

"Don't blame immigration or the EU for the collapse of the NHS:

That's entirely due to successive UK governments fucking it up for the last 20+ years

You're wasting your breath, for some it will always be easier to blame Johnny Foreigner for their life's ills than the government for mismanagement etc in the nhs and other public services.

one may almost think that the whole EU referendum has been debated by some with that as their intent so that even if they lose the seed's of division grow..

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By *LCCCouple
over a year ago

Cambridge

"I'm not really interested in "who" is backing either side but I am interested in the reasons "why" they hold the opinions they do. It surely makes no sense to base your vote on a personality

Its not about basing it on their personality, its about respecting that they are experts in their field, and trusting their professional opinions.

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By *entaur_UKMan
over a year ago

Cannock

Am I correct in thinking you are saying that we should stay because some military guys say so?

Some people think we should leave because some military guy called Lord Guthrie says so. "

Well i'm sure some on the Remain side would be shouting about it if it had been the other way around and he had switched from the Leave side to the Remain side.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Remain:

Former British Prime Ministers Gordon Brown, Tony Blair and John Major (1 – see Sources below)

The Labour party (2)

Every other major UK political party leader including Nicola Sturgeon (3)

Barack Obama (4)

Hillary Clinton (5)

Angela Merkel (6)

Stephen Hawking and 83% of scientists (7)

Sir Richard Branson (8)

40 religious leaders (9)

300 leading historians (10)

The Trades Union Congress and our six largest trades unions (11)

88% of economists (12)

The National Farmers Union (13)

The Bank of England (14)

The Chief Executive of NHS England (15)

The Royal College of Midwives (16)

Multiple businesses including Ford Motor Company (17) and Rolls Royce (18)

Leave:

The Sun Newspaper

The BNP

The UKIP Party

Nigel Farage

Boris Johnson

Michael Gove

Donald Trump"

Just goes to show how completely out of touch the mainstream political parties and media are with ordinary people.

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By *anchestercubMan
over a year ago

manchester & NI

Am I correct in thinking you are saying that we should stay because some military guys say so?

Some people think we should leave because some military guy called Lord Guthrie says so.

Well i'm sure some on the Remain side would be shouting about it if it had been the other way around and he had switched from the Leave side to the Remain side. "

He was for Remain and no one was singling out his name then.

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By *entaur_UKMan
over a year ago

Cannock

Am I correct in thinking you are saying that we should stay because some military guys say so?

Some people think we should leave because some military guy called Lord Guthrie says so.

Well i'm sure some on the Remain side would be shouting about it if it had been the other way around and he had switched from the Leave side to the Remain side.

He was for Remain and no one was singling out his name then. "

MP Sarah Wollaston was for Leave, but as soon as she switched sides the other week plenty on the Remain side were singling out her name on here.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Don't forget that the auditors haven't signed off the cosy EU Mafia's accounts for fifteen years running!!! And if we stay in we'll be bailing out all the other collapsing EU economies!

And if we do vote leave we get the added bonus of getting rid of serial Oxbridge liars and traitors like Osborne and Cameron. "

you do know that is just one of the outers lies don't you?

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By *entaur_UKMan
over a year ago

Cannock

"Don't forget that the auditors haven't signed off the cosy EU Mafia's accounts for fifteen years running!!! And if we stay in we'll be bailing out all the other collapsing EU economies!

And if we do vote leave we get the added bonus of getting rid of serial Oxbridge liars and traitors like Osborne and Cameron.

you do know that is just one of the outers lies don't you? "

Read the whole of the thread, MP Caroline Lucas, a Remain campaigner also said it today on the sunday politics programme.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

" Who is the opposition to the EU commission?

There is no opposition, they are unelected and no one can remove them."

they are replaced on a regular basis. the lack of understanding on here reminds me of Churchill s quote. my faith in democracy never lasts more than a five minute conversation with the average voter.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"We have an open door policy on immigration and cant do anything cus of European law.I never thought id agree with boris johnson but the points system on immigration is the most sensible thing any politician as ever come out with"

no we don't. you do known that half of all imigration is from outside the eu and could be stopped today if the government saw fit?

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By *anchestercubMan
over a year ago

manchester & NI

And if we do vote leave we get the added bonus of getting rid of serial Oxbridge liars and traitors like Osborne and Cameron. "

Traitors?

My posts will testify that I'm no fan of Cameron or Osborne but that's the sort of hyperbolic rhetoric that's wrong with the debate.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Don't forget that the auditors haven't signed off the cosy EU Mafia's accounts for fifteen years running!!! And if we stay in we'll be bailing out all the other collapsing EU economies!

And if we do vote leave we get the added bonus of getting rid of serial Oxbridge liars and traitors like Osborne and Cameron.

you do know that is just one of the outers lies don't you?

Read the whole of the thread, MP Caroline Lucas, a Remain campaigner also said it today on the sunday politics programme. "

That was one mistake that she made in the 10 minute debate, which can easily be checked against facts. You of course don't bother with facts. Don't forget to mention that in the rest of the debate she wiped the floor with Dominic Raab. In this instance she made a mistake but should be roundly congratulated on winning the debate.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P_i3mWhPZcc

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

" Who is the opposition to the EU commission?

There is no opposition, they are unelected and no one can remove them.

they are replaced on a regular basis. the lack of understanding on here reminds me of Churchill s quote. my faith in democracy never lasts more than a five minute conversation with the average voter."

we bow to your wisdom oh wise one.

what does replaced mean?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Don't forget that the auditors haven't signed off the cosy EU Mafia's accounts for fifteen years running!!! And if we stay in we'll be bailing out all the other collapsing EU economies!

And if we do vote leave we get the added bonus of getting rid of serial Oxbridge liars and traitors like Osborne and Cameron.

you do know that is just one of the outers lies don't you?

Read the whole of the thread, MP Caroline Lucas, a Remain campaigner also said it today on the sunday politics programme. "

Well she was incorrect as you could have discovered if you had checked.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

" Who is the opposition to the EU commission?

There is no opposition, they are unelected and no one can remove them.

they are replaced on a regular basis. the lack of understanding on here reminds me of Churchill s quote. my faith in democracy never lasts more than a five minute conversation with the average voter.

we bow to your wisdom oh wise one.

what does replaced mean?"

Google is your friend.

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By *ensualtouch15Man
over a year ago

ashby de la zouch

If there is a remain vote hopefully things will continue as they are and the UK and most of it citizens will enjoy an exceptionally high standard of living

I am rather concerned that beyond my control racists and bigots are going to control the vote and the UK will stumble into a making a huge mistake

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

" Who is the opposition to the EU commission?

There is no opposition, they are unelected and no one can remove them.

they are replaced on a regular basis. the lack of understanding on here reminds me of Churchill s quote. my faith in democracy never lasts more than a five minute conversation with the average voter.

we bow to your wisdom oh wise one.

what does replaced mean?

Google is your friend. "

so how can we replace the commission and what can we replace it with?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"If there is a remain vote hopefully things will continue as they are and the UK and most of it citizens will enjoy an exceptionally high standard of living

I am rather concerned that beyond my control racists and bigots are going to control the vote and the UK will stumble into a making a huge mistake

the EU does not want things to continue as they are though.

And most citizens enjoy an exceptionally high standard of living???

You need to get out more

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"If there is a remain vote hopefully things will continue as they are and the UK and most of it citizens will enjoy an exceptionally high standard of living

I am rather concerned that beyond my control racists and bigots are going to control the vote and the UK will stumble into a making a huge mistake

That's a very real fear, as was raised by the pro-Brexit Daily Mail quite recently:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3625503/The-neo-Nazi-swastika-breast-Vote-Leave-badge-vest-Holocaust-deniers-EDL-fascists-posing-Kray-twins-grave-violent-thugs-racists-hijacking-Brexit-campaign.html

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By *entaur_UKMan
over a year ago

Cannock

"If there is a remain vote hopefully things will continue as they are and the UK and most of it citizens will enjoy an exceptionally high standard of living

High standard of living? What about the Bank of England backing up reports which have said people on average wages in the UK now have 10% lower standards of living then they were in 2008.

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By *entaur_UKMan
over a year ago

Cannock

I am rather concerned that beyond my control racists and bigots are going to control the vote and the UK will stumble into a making a huge mistake

Thats the sort of hyperbolic rhetoric thats wrong with the debate.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"If there is a remain vote hopefully things will continue as they are and the UK and most of it citizens will enjoy an exceptionally high standard of living

High standard of living? What about the Bank of England backing up reports which have said people on average wages in the UK now have 10% lower standards of living then they were in 2008. "

What about the most recent labour force survey that tells us that average wages are up 17% in real terms since 2000 across all industry sectors and more so in construction and finance? That includes a dip since 2008 caused by the last recession.

How about telling us what the cost to real wages of a recession driven by Brexit would be? Perhaps big enough to wipe out the entire 16 years gain?

We need to make sure we don't all end up suffering a Brexit tax for your jingoistic fantasy land. Oh except of course your Brexit mates who expect to make a killing speculating on it.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I am rather concerned that beyond my control racists and bigots are going to control the vote and the UK will stumble into a making a huge mistake

Thats the sort of hyperbolic rhetoric thats wrong with the debate. "

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By *G LanaTV/TS
over a year ago

Gosport

Leaving the EU could save the UK its net contribution of £9.9 billion which could be spent on poverty reduction.

A devaluation of the pound following a leave vote could increase the cost of imported goods and services which would impact people who already live in poverty.

The North East, Northern Ireland and the East Midlands would be hardest hit by any increased barriers to trade with the EU.

Some of the most deprived parts of the UK such as Wales and Cornwall receive £2.1 billion of funding from the EU to support development.

Out of interest I thought I would look to see what the Jospeh Rowntree Foundation had to say on the referendum. The above statements are directly copied from their summary on the issues. Their full assessment is available as a pdf from their website.

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By *entaur_UKMan
over a year ago

Cannock

"If there is a remain vote hopefully things will continue as they are and the UK and most of it citizens will enjoy an exceptionally high standard of living

High standard of living? What about the Bank of England backing up reports which have said people on average wages in the UK now have 10% lower standards of living then they were in 2008.

How about telling us what the cost to real wages of a recession driven by Brexit would be? Perhaps big enough to wipe out the entire 16 years gain?

We need to make sure we don't all end up suffering a Brexit tax for your jingoistic fantasy land. Oh except of course your Brexit mates who expect to make a killing speculating on it."

There is no Brexit tax, that is just one of your ridiculous sound bites that you keep spitting out on here over and over like a parrot, hoping someone will believe you. Even under the worst case scenario of WTO rules with tariffs, the costs would work out the same we now currently pay in annual EU membership fees, so the costs are neutral. The EU won't want WTO rules with tariffs with us though because we buy more from them than they buy from us. Why would they cut off their nose to spite their face? It will be in their own interests to do a free trade deal with us if the country votes Leave.

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By *enard ArgenteMan
over a year ago

London and France

"If there is a remain vote hopefully things will continue as they are and the UK and most of it citizens will enjoy an exceptionally high standard of living

High standard of living? What about the Bank of England backing up reports which have said people on average wages in the UK now have 10% lower standards of living then they were in 2008.

How about telling us what the cost to real wages of a recession driven by Brexit would be? Perhaps big enough to wipe out the entire 16 years gain?

We need to make sure we don't all end up suffering a Brexit tax for your jingoistic fantasy land. Oh except of course your Brexit mates who expect to make a killing speculating on it.

Unfortunately; the countries that the EU currently trades with ( via UK) are not dependent on the UK. Except as a gateway to the EU. So the EU will cut out the " middle man" and deal direct .

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By *nleashedCrakenMan
over a year ago

Widnes

" Who is the opposition to the EU commission?

There is no opposition, they are unelected and no one can remove them.

they are replaced on a regular basis. the lack of understanding on here reminds me of Churchill s quote. my faith in democracy never lasts more than a five minute conversation with the average voter.

we bow to your wisdom oh wise one.

what does replaced mean?"

It means they are changed, it's really not difficult.

It's true there is no official opposition to the EU commission but that's because the EU commission is not a government, it has no legislative power. It is effectively the Civil Service of the EU. Legislative powers rest with the European Council, the Council of Minister (both of which are answerable to the elected, sovereign governments of the member states) and the European Parliament (which is directly and democratically elected)

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By *nleashedCrakenMan
over a year ago

Widnes

" Who is the opposition to the EU commission?

There is no opposition, they are unelected and no one can remove them.

they are replaced on a regular basis. the lack of understanding on here reminds me of Churchill s quote. my faith in democracy never lasts more than a five minute conversation with the average voter.

we bow to your wisdom oh wise one.

what does replaced mean?

Google is your friend.

so how can we replace the commission and what can we replace it with?

What do you mean by 'replace the commission'?

The commissioners can and are replaced regularly. They are nominated by the elected, sovereign governments of the member states. The commission itself does not get replaced any more than the Civil Service gets replaced here. Why would you want to replace the civil service?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"If there is a remain vote hopefully things will continue as they are and the UK and most of it citizens will enjoy an exceptionally high standard of living

High standard of living? What about the Bank of England backing up reports which have said people on average wages in the UK now have 10% lower standards of living then they were in 2008.

How about telling us what the cost to real wages of a recession driven by Brexit would be? Perhaps big enough to wipe out the entire 16 years gain?

We need to make sure we don't all end up suffering a Brexit tax for your jingoistic fantasy land. Oh except of course your Brexit mates who expect to make a killing speculating on it.

A 5.3% tariff (which is the WTO figure for the current UK/EU average external tariff would cost the tax payers of the UK £11.6 billion plus VAT (about £14 billion in total). Our current net payment to the EU is what? £8.5 billion, so excuse me if I do call that extra bill of between £2.5 billion and £4.5 billion a Brexit tax. If we use the 10% tariff your Brexit colleagues seem to want to quote we'll be about £16 billion a year worse off.

That's tax that everyone who buys foreign good would pay. If you shift buying those goods from Germany to Australia or Timbuktu, the same tariff applies.

If you're going to tell us that a measure is tax neutral, do let us know how you work that out. To me it looks like another whopping great Brexit tax. And with that Brexit tax we get ALL of the cost and NONE of the benfits.

Bye bye cheap international roaming, cheap flights etc. etc

Hello Brexit tax.

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By *arethingMan
over a year ago

Shropshire

But the fact that it is catering for more people than it was designed for don't help, if your not a British national then pay like we do in other European countries

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

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By *entaur_UKMan
over a year ago

Cannock

"If there is a remain vote hopefully things will continue as they are and the UK and most of it citizens will enjoy an exceptionally high standard of living

High standard of living? What about the Bank of England backing up reports which have said people on average wages in the UK now have 10% lower standards of living then they were in 2008.

How about telling us what the cost to real wages of a recession driven by Brexit would be? Perhaps big enough to wipe out the entire 16 years gain?

We need to make sure we don't all end up suffering a Brexit tax for your jingoistic fantasy land. Oh except of course your Brexit mates who expect to make a killing speculating on it.

Unfortunately; the countries that the EU currently trades with ( via UK) are not dependent on the UK. Except as a gateway to the EU. So the EU will cut out the " middle man" and deal direct ."

That works both ways though, countries outside of the EU, and who trade through the EU to get trade with the UK, will be able to cut out the EU "middle man" if we leave, and they will be able to do direct trade deals with the UK.

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By *illbillMan
over a year ago

dublin

"Would a remain vote in the EU referendum mean carry on as normal?

That’s what we have just now and much worse in various UK locations, why will things change? Or will they just continue to get worse?

I guess we are all in the hands and mercy of what Brussels decides for us

"
stop complaining about lack of representation in Brussels you choose who you send to Brussels in European elections but when people send ukip candidates to Europe it's hardly a surprise you don't get the representation you deserve

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By *ngel n tedCouple
over a year ago

maidstone

But will snickers go back to being called marathons if we leave, they tasted nicer when they were marathons

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By *entaur_UKMan
over a year ago

Cannock

" Who is the opposition to the EU commission?

There is no opposition, they are unelected and no one can remove them.

they are replaced on a regular basis. the lack of understanding on here reminds me of Churchill s quote. my faith in democracy never lasts more than a five minute conversation with the average voter.

we bow to your wisdom oh wise one.

what does replaced mean?

Google is your friend.

so how can we replace the commission and what can we replace it with?

What do you mean by 'replace the commission'?

What you are saying then is that the EU commissioners are appointed, and NOT elected. When they are replaced it is with another set of appointed and unelected commissioners, invariably failed politicians from the various countries in the EU who no one has heard of and no one knows the names of.

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By *entaur_UKMan
over a year ago

Cannock

"If there is a remain vote hopefully things will continue as they are and the UK and most of it citizens will enjoy an exceptionally high standard of living

High standard of living? What about the Bank of England backing up reports which have said people on average wages in the UK now have 10% lower standards of living then they were in 2008.

How about telling us what the cost to real wages of a recession driven by Brexit would be? Perhaps big enough to wipe out the entire 16 years gain?

We need to make sure we don't all end up suffering a Brexit tax for your jingoistic fantasy land. Oh except of course your Brexit mates who expect to make a killing speculating on it.

That's tax that everyone who buys foreign good would pay. If you shift buying those goods from Germany to Australia or Timbuktu, the same tariff applies.

Bye bye cheap international roaming, cheap flights etc. etc

Hello Brexit tax.

You are making various assumptions there about the size of the tariff, a bit like the various worse case assumptions George Osbourne made to come to the £4300 worse off in the year 2030 figure. The history and trend of trade in the world has been to keep lowering tariffs globally, or at least keep them the same as the current level. No one wants to increase tariffs, (except in extreme cases such as Chinese steel dumping).

On your last point a very large chunk of the British public think democracy and sovereignty is much more important than cheap mobile phone roaming charges and cheap flights, if you think you can just buy people off with those little trinkets you are completely wrong about what British peoples true values are.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

You would run the most boring pub quizzes ever.

Do you know the names or qualifications of anyone on the Civil Service Board (CSB)- that's their most senior people? What about the name of the Cabinet Secretary and Head of the Civil Service or any of the senior permanent secretaries in government ministers? Do you know the names of any of the members of the UK supreme court? Do you know who the head of the national audit office is?

No cheating with google now.

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By *iss_Samantha_LovecockTV/TS
over a year ago

bmth /poole sometimes blandford

the truth is we dont really know what will happen as u cant get a straight answer to anything or proper facts and figures..its all predictions and guess work and bullshit

but all i know is that we need to take a chance .. britain was a great country and we just need to have it back..we shouldnt be worried it'll all work out in the end

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By *entaur_UKMan
over a year ago

Cannock

You would run the most boring pub quizzes ever.

No cheating with google now."

Most people know the name of their local MP, and the name of the Prime Minister. Its called democratic accountability. In order to hold someone to account, it does help if you at least know their name. This is a huge problem with the EU and there is huge democratic deficit in the EU.

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By *nleashedCrakenMan
over a year ago

Widnes

"If there is a remain vote hopefully things will continue as they are and the UK and most of it citizens will enjoy an exceptionally high standard of living

High standard of living? What about the Bank of England backing up reports which have said people on average wages in the UK now have 10% lower standards of living then they were in 2008. "

But that's not what the Bank of England, or any one else who has checked the facts, has actually said.

The report this mis-information is based on is Gavin Thompson’s and Daniel Harari’s “The economic impact of EU membership on the UK” (Ref SN/EP/6370 – 2013)

This is what it actually says:

The effect of immigration on employment and wages depends on whether the particular skills and qualities possessed by migrants substitute for (i.e. compete with) those possessed by the ‘native’ workforce, or complement them. The more migrant workers can be considered a direct substitute for existing workers, the more downward pressure there is likely to be on wages for those jobs. Research generally finds that that immigration does not displace native workers, nor does it lead to lower average wages for native workers.

There is, however, some evidence that migration can affect pay at different points across the wage distribution. Dustmann et al found that each 1% increase in the share of migrants in the UK-born working-age population led to a 0.6% decline in the wages of the 5% lowest paid workers, a 0.4% decline for the 10% lowest paid, and to an increase in the wages of all higher paid workers. Similarly, another study focusing on wage effects at the occupational level , found that in the unskilled and semi-skilled service sector, a 1 percentage point rise in the share of migrants reduced average wages in that occupation by 0.5%.

End of Direct quote

As the official figure for non-British EU nationals in the workforce is 5% that would mean a drop in average wages for the bottom 10% of 2.5% and an increase in the average wage overall and an even bigger increase in the average wage for 90% of the workforce.

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By *iss_tressWoman
over a year ago

London

I can't get myself worked up about this as a referendum is only a fancy name for consultation.

The government will "consult" with us, smile and nod, say hmmm, I've heard what you've said, but we have decided to remain.

Or am I an old cynic?

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By *abioMan
over a year ago

Newcastle and Gateshead

"a 20% cut in home fuel bills will be a good start"

well there would not have had to say they would cut vat off fuel bills in the first place if the tories under leave campaigner lord lawson had not have put it on in the first place....

and then the next tory govt had not tried to then raise that duty for 8% to 15%....

so do you really believe they are now going to take it off......

really???

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By *nleashedCrakenMan
over a year ago

Widnes

"If there is a remain vote hopefully things will continue as they are and the UK and most of it citizens will enjoy an exceptionally high standard of living

High standard of living? What about the Bank of England backing up reports which have said people on average wages in the UK now have 10% lower standards of living then they were in 2008.

How about telling us what the cost to real wages of a recession driven by Brexit would be? Perhaps big enough to wipe out the entire 16 years gain?

We need to make sure we don't all end up suffering a Brexit tax for your jingoistic fantasy land. Oh except of course your Brexit mates who expect to make a killing speculating on it.

I think the bigger question is 'Why would we?' but, with nearly 50% of the population in the UK considering voting for, at best, economic uncertainty and at worst a full blown economic recession, just to stick two fingers up to the EU, why would you believe that the French and Germans won't risk much less in order to save the EU and stop other counties following the same route?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"If there is a remain vote hopefully things will continue as they are and the UK and most of it citizens will enjoy an exceptionally high standard of living

High standard of living? What about the Bank of England backing up reports which have said people on average wages in the UK now have 10% lower standards of living then they were in 2008.

How about telling us what the cost to real wages of a recession driven by Brexit would be? Perhaps big enough to wipe out the entire 16 years gain?

We need to make sure we don't all end up suffering a Brexit tax for your jingoistic fantasy land. Oh except of course your Brexit mates who expect to make a killing speculating on it.

That's tax that everyone who buys foreign good would pay. If you shift buying those goods from Germany to Australia or Timbuktu, the same tariff applies.

Bye bye cheap international roaming, cheap flights etc. etc

Hello Brexit tax.

I've told you my assumption - a 5.3% average tariff or a 10% tariff if I believe all the Brexiters who chart about it. 5.3% is the average rate the EU would be compelled to apply to imports from the UK if we were to go down the WTO route: that's the most favoured nation average rate that you've been happy to refer to in the past.

If the UK unilaterally drops its tariffs to the EU to zero, that's fine, but the EU have to obey WTO rules and stick 5.3% on our goods(those are the rules) unless we do a trade deal with them to get zero tariffs both ways. If we drop our tariffs to zero, the EU is as competitive (or not) as it was before and we are less competitive in EU countries (who have to add the tariff on top).

The question I asked you was what tax rates you were assuming but your answer was just rhetoric, yet again, because you have no idea what tax level is tax neutral.

I would never try to buy off the British people with trinkets, but Brexit campaigners are quite happy to lie about the loss each and everyone of us will make from such a poor ill thought out deal. You won't tell us what we'll lose in terms of our own personal freedoms, freedom of movement, protection of workers, human rights and so on and on and on.

As for the £4300 a year GDP loss it will cost each and everyone of us, I'm quite happy to go with the range of figures that the treasury committee said was acceptable. That was a loss of between about £3200 and £5400 each year, with the median loss to income for each family of £1600 per year.

There's another Brexit tax for you: a loss of £1600 per year for every family in the country. Obviously you can spare that. Most can't.

Now how did you work out that tax neutral stuff again to avoid tariffs turning into another Brexit tax on everyone?

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By *enard ArgenteMan
over a year ago

London and France

You would run the most boring pub quizzes ever.

No cheating with google now.

That's not the problem with the EU; it's a UK problem .

In EU countries; everyone know who their MEP is; and vote for them accordingly. They have importance.

The fact that in UK no one knows or cares, who the their MEP is, and that also- rans and half wits become MEPs is the UK's problem.

We ( the population and successive governments) have let this happen .

And our European partners cannot understand how we send our worst, and most useless, to be MEPs.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

[Removed by poster at 19/06/16 18:00:25]

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By *entaur_UKMan
over a year ago

Cannock

"a 20% cut in home fuel bills will be a good start

well there would not have had to say they would cut vat off fuel bills in the first place if the tories under leave campaigner lord lawson had not have put it on in the first place....

and then the next tory govt had not tried to then raise that duty for 8% to 15%....

so do you really believe they are now going to take it off......

really???"

It is a suggestion put forward by the vote Leave campaign to cut VAT on fuel bills to below 5%, in the event that the country votes to leave the EU, which the government cannot currently do as EU rules on VAT prevent them from doing so.

If vote Leave wins the referendum then it will be upto the government of the day to implement the proposals put forward by the vote Leave campaign, if as David Cameron says he is a democrat, then it will be upto him to push those proposals through parliament based on the democratic wish of the people.

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By *enard ArgenteMan
over a year ago

London and France

Yet another untruth from " leave" . The UK ( as for any other EU country) can choose what rate of VAT to impose on any commodity.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

You would run the most boring pub quizzes ever.

No cheating with google now.

Is that the huge democratic deficit that allowed a third of our MEPs to be from UKIP when all they can manage in the UK democratic system is one MP?

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By *entaur_UKMan
over a year ago

Cannock

You would run the most boring pub quizzes ever.

No cheating with google now.

That's not the problem with the EU; it's a UK problem .

In EU countries; everyone know who their MEP is; and vote for them accordingly. They have importance.

The fact that in UK no one knows or cares, who the their MEP is, and that also- rans and half wits become MEPs is the UK's problem.

We ( the population and successive governments) have let this happen .

And our European partners cannot understand how we send our worst, and most useless, to be MEPs. "

The British public have sent the MEP's to the European Parliament who best represent their views. Considering the majority of British MEP's in the European Parliament are Eurosceptic MEP's should'nt that tell you, and the EU elite in Brussels that something is deeply wrong with the EU, that many people are not happy with the EU and that many people want out of the EU.

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By *entaur_UKMan
over a year ago

Cannock

You would run the most boring pub quizzes ever.

No cheating with google now.

Is that the huge democratic deficit that allowed a third of our MEPs to be from UKIP when all they can manage in the UK democratic system is one MP? "

Nice smoke screen but i was actually talking about the EU commission.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

" Who is the opposition to the EU commission?

There is no opposition, they are unelected and no one can remove them.

they are replaced on a regular basis. the lack of understanding on here reminds me of Churchill s quote. my faith in democracy never lasts more than a five minute conversation with the average voter.

we bow to your wisdom oh wise one.

what does replaced mean?

Google is your friend.

so how can we replace the commission and what can we replace it with?

What do you mean by 'replace the commission'?

you mean who you have not heard of.

name me all the mps in the house of commons.

name me every member of the government and their roles.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"In the Ipsos Mori survey, more than 50 per cent of French and Italian citizens are wanting a vote on the union and half of those asked believed that if Britain left the EU, there would be a domino effect with other countries following its exit.

A third of those asked said they would vote to leave the union if a referendum was held now with 48 and 41 per cent of Italian and French respondents saying they would vote to leave.

The Polish were the least likely to vote to leave the EU if there was a vote suggesting the relatively new member was keener to hold on to membership despite more than a third wanting their own referendum."

Says it all...

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

You would run the most boring pub quizzes ever.

No cheating with google now.

Is that the huge democratic deficit that allowed a third of our MEPs to be from UKIP when all they can manage in the UK democratic system is one MP?

Nice smoke screen but i was actually talking about the EU commission. "

So when you wrote "Most people know the name of their local MP" we were supposed to realise that you meant the EU commission and weren't opening up the discussion to include people who were actually voted for? Instead you wanted to discuss civil servants because you can then go on to ignore the fact that we don't vote for any civil servants in the UK?

The democratic deficit is caused by the low quality of MEPs. We all should take some blame for that - hardly anyone bothered to turn out to vote for them. Still with that so called deficit you still got far more UKIP MEPs than in the democratic UK elections.

What a waste of a vote was for those who voted for them.

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By *ngel n tedCouple
over a year ago

maidstone

"But will snickers go back to being called marathons if we leave, they tasted nicer when they were marathons"

I think you're all ducking the question, quoting facts and figures and discussing other issues, while the fundamental question still remains...will snickers return to marathons

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

""In the Ipsos Mori survey, more than 50 per cent of French and Italian citizens are wanting a vote on the union and half of those asked believed that if Britain left the EU, there would be a domino effect with other countries following its exit.

A third of those asked said they would vote to leave the union if a referendum was held now with 48 and 41 per cent of Italian and French respondents saying they would vote to leave.

Says it all..."

That's the poll that says:

In Great Britain itself the number of people who believe that the Brexit vote will prevail is in a minority – 35% of Britons think that Britain will vote to leave the EU.

That says it all about polls.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"But will snickers go back to being called marathons if we leave, they tasted nicer when they were marathons

I think you're all ducking the question, quoting facts and figures and discussing other issues, while the fundamental question still remains...will snickers return to marathons

That's the one question that both campaigns have dreaded.

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By *verysmileMan
over a year ago

Canterbury

Bring back spangles and opal fruits.

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By *entaur_UKMan
over a year ago

Cannock

You would run the most boring pub quizzes ever.

No cheating with google now.

Is that the huge democratic deficit that allowed a third of our MEPs to be from UKIP when all they can manage in the UK democratic system is one MP?

Nice smoke screen but i was actually talking about the EU commission.

What a waste of a vote was for those who voted for them."

Sounds like you've had some sour grapes for your sunday dinner.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

You would run the most boring pub quizzes ever.

No cheating with google now.

Is that the huge democratic deficit that allowed a third of our MEPs to be from UKIP when all they can manage in the UK democratic system is one MP?

Nice smoke screen but i was actually talking about the EU commission.

What a waste of a vote was for those who voted for them.

Sounds like you've had some sour grapes for your sunday dinner. "

Nope, it sounds like you didn't have a sensible reply to offer.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

When those of us in the Brexit side of the debate are called 'charlatans' (twice), liars, racists and bigots I am inclined to stay out of it all as I have been doing post the tragic murder of Jo Cox. However I will just make this comment on a certain individuals post:

" I've told you my assumption -"

So an assumption is taken as fact on the 'Bremain' side. OK we get that.

" a 5.3% average tariff or a 10% tariff if I believe all the Brexiters who chart about it."

I haven't seen anyone on the Brexit side mention any tariff rates at all apart from the wish for universal zero Tariffs which would be the biggest boost to world trade. And in passing I haven't seen anyone on the 'Leave' side make any mention of a 'Trade War' or 'Brexit Tax'. Apart from this certain individual. So I guess these must by 'opinions dressed up as facts'. OK we get that as well..

" 5.3% is the average rate the EU would be compelled to apply to imports from the UK if we were to go down the WTO route: that's the most favoured nation average rate that you've been happy to refer to in the past."

In trade negotiations no party is 'compelled' to do anything. It would be a Bilateral Agreement between the UK and the EU on terms that would be mutually agreed at some point within 2 years. After that if there is no agreement we would be free to have any import rate we chose but if the EU wants to have 5.3% then fine we will have 5.3% and maybe our £61 Bn a year Trade Deficit with the EU will be reduced.

" If the UK unilaterally drops its tariffs to the EU to zero, that's fine, but the EU have to obey WTO rules and stick 5.3% on our goods(those are the rules) unless we do a trade deal with them to get zero tariffs both ways."

Well again the statement about 5.3% Tariffs as 'Rules' is repeated when it is about agreement. As you then stated and contradicted yourself. OK we get that thanks.

" If we drop our tariffs to zero, the EU is as competitive (or not) as it was before and we are less competitive in EU countries (who have to add the tariff on top)."

Well not quite. Whatever Tariffs are agree are applied by both sides. So if we both agree zero% then that is applied all over the Eu for UK goods.

" Brexit campaigners are quite happy to lie about the loss each and everyone of us will make from such a poor ill thought out deal."

With respect its not Brexit that are making any statements about rates / Tariffs. You are. It seems odd you fabricate a figure that is just your opinion and then shout 'Liar' at us in the Brexit camp for any losses of such a deal. Your deal!

"You won't tell us what we'll lose in terms of our own personal freedoms, freedom of movement, protection of workers, human rights and so on and on and on."

OK I will:

* Personal freedoms will be unchanged although we will have the added personal freedom to vote out ALL the people who make our Laws, Regulations and Directives and not just the ones who make 20% of them in Westminster. * Freedom of movement will be as now and was before we joined the EEC. What changes is 'Free Movement of Labour' Two different thing entirely but nice try to confuse the two.

* Protection of workers will remain as they are now. And were in many ways before we joined the EEC. For example we have had paid holidays since the before WWII. Any change in worker's rights would have to be passed by the UK Parliament.

* You do know Human Rights is nothing to do with the EU right? Its overseen by the Council of Europe of which we are a member and signatory so Human Rights will not be affected unless changed by the UK Parliament. But hey its good to throw in the odd Red Herring to make a list nice and long eh?

" As for the £4300 a year GDP loss it will cost each and everyone of us, I'm quite happy to go with the range of figures that the treasury committee said was acceptable. That was a loss of between about £3200 and £5400 each year, with the median loss to income for each family of £1600 per year.

There's another Brexit tax for you: a loss of £1600 per year for every family in the country. Obviously you can spare that. Most can't."

Oh dear. The quoted figure of £4300 was a forecast by the Treasury on loss of GDP. A Treasury that was so bad at forecasting Osborne handed the job over to the OBR. But I digress. Average annual GDP per household is about £66,000. Average wage per household is about £44,000 So the 'Bremainers' were sort of 50% out on the effects of this supposed loss of GDP on each household. And no substantive data on how that figure was calculated in the first place of course. There is no Brexit Tax. Its just a rather simplistic Soundbite. A Soundbite based on some vague opinion which produced a figure no one recognises in their daily lives and was 50% out....

And here is a thought for you to justify: If that Treasury report was accurate and our taxes would have to go up by 6p in the £ (because of a supposed loss of £4,300 GDP) why didn't that same Treasury reduce taxes by some 11p in the £ given our GDP has increased by nearly double that supposed loss since 2010?

So no more of this 'Brexit Tax' or we will have to start referring to the Nett £13.2 Bn we paid in to the EU in CASH between 2010 and 2014 as the 'EU Tax'... Seem fair to you? In fairness 'Fabio' says the figure was £12.9 Bn in 2015. I will take that for the sake of discussion.

And can we please bin this nonsense about how much the EU spends here? Its crap simple as. The EU RETURNS our money to the UK as it sees fit on projects that suit the EU or under CAP and CFP which it controls. The UK has no control over that £13.2 (or £12.9) Bn once its paid to the EU. Post Brexit it will be a UK Government that decides how ALL of that cash will be spent. Not the EU Commissioners. And simply because the EU funds a project here doesn't mean we will choose to fund it after we leave. It may have NO priority for the greater good of the UK at all. Conversely we may choose to increase spending on some projects that benefit the UK directly. Like giving properly structured subsidies to British Farmers, who are the most efficient in the EU, so we can unleash all of that potential currently being wasted in 'set aside' etc. So the sum is £13.2 (or £12.9) Bn. Nothing less.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Remain:

Steven Hawking

IMF

NATO

WTO

Bank of England

The Royal Society

Multiple Nobel Prize winning economists

MI5 & MI6

CIA

NSA

The all the heads of the CIA, NSA, Federal Reserve and US Secretaries of State since the 1970s.

Head of NHS England

Unite, Unison and GMB

But what would they know huh?

Just been read out on the question time debate with David Cameron:

Sir Michael Rose, Chaurman of M&S, the appointed leader of the remain campaign.

"If the UK votes to leave the EU then wages for low paid workers are bound to improve. This is not necessarily a good thing"

Clearly not for the fat cat leaders of industry...who want more and more immigration from EU countries who have much lower wage levels than here. They can target recruitment in these countries and keep wages low!

Cameron ducked and dived on that and rapidly changed the subject. Didn't like to face TGE truth from the LEADER OF HIS IWN CAMPAIGN!

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By *rinking-in-laCouple
over a year ago

Bristol

"Would a remain vote in the EU referendum mean carry on as normal?

That’s what we have just now and much worse in various UK locations, why will things change? Or will they just continue to get worse?

I guess we are all in the hands and mercy of what Brussels decides for us

The EU is not the reason many immigrants come to the Uk.

The rest of your complaints are due to having a shit government. Nothing to do with the EU.

The EU is more democratic than the Uk govt. We have an unelected head of state and 50% of our legislating politicians are unelected.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

The head of state (Queen) is a constitutional monarch. She has no place in the government of the country (so do many other European States too)

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

True the House of Lords are unelected....rather like the EU commissioners?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

" The democratic deficit is caused by the low quality of MEPs. We all should take some blame for that - hardly anyone bothered to turn out to vote for them. Still with that so called deficit you still got far more UKIP MEPs than in the democratic UK elections.

What a waste of a vote was for those who voted for them "

I guess you feel good about insulting a few million British people who expressed their views in a ballot box. Some may think otherwise. The fact remains under the system of voting for EU Elections (a version of PR) UKIP won that election in the UK. Period. End of. They were the most popular. Accept it.

Just like UKIP voters (I voted Tory) have to accept the 'democratic deficit'about the fact that UKIP got more votes than the SNP (3.9 Million vs 1.5 Million and 12.6% of the popular vote vs 4.7%) and ended up with 1 MP while the SNP got 56 MPs? UKIP were third behind the Tories and Labour in 2015. I can guarantee you that will be 3.9 Million 'Leave' votes right there ...

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By *nleashedCrakenMan
over a year ago

Widnes

" Who is the opposition to the EU commission?

There is no opposition, they are unelected and no one can remove them.

they are replaced on a regular basis. the lack of understanding on here reminds me of Churchill s quote. my faith in democracy never lasts more than a five minute conversation with the average voter.

we bow to your wisdom oh wise one.

what does replaced mean?

Google is your friend.

so how can we replace the commission and what can we replace it with?

What do you mean by 'replace the commission'?

As are the heads of department of the Civil Service here. We don't elect the department heads of the British Civil service, why would we want to elect the heads of departments in the European civil service, because that's what the European Commission is. It's no more or less democratic than any other Civil Service anywhere in the world.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

The difference being civil servants are just that...servants. They don't make laws. The commission does. How come no-one hasn't replaced the Kinnock dickwad? If ever anyone should be replaced.....!

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

" As are the heads of department of the Civil Service here. We don't elect the department heads of the British Civil service, why would we want to elect the heads of departments in the European civil service, because that's what the European Commission is. It's no more or less democratic than any other Civil Service anywhere in the world."

Well there is one very small (sic) difference. The UK Civil Service does not make Laws, Regulations or Directives. They simply carry out the will of the elected Government of the day by drafting legislation for example. When was the last time the EU Commission was answerable to the UK Government and drafted laws instructed by the UK Government?

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By *rinking-in-laCouple
over a year ago

Bristol

"True the House of Lords are unelected....rather like the EU commissioners?"

Only the european parliament make laws.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Remain:

Steven Hawking

IMF

NATO

WTO

Bank of England

The Royal Society

Multiple Nobel Prize winning economists

MI5 & MI6 totally agree mate

CIA

NSA

The all the heads of the CIA, NSA, Federal Reserve and US Secretaries of State since the 1970s.

Head of NHS England

Unite, Unison and GMB

But what would they know huh?

Just been read out on the question time debate with David Cameron:

Sir Michael Rose, Chaurman of M&S, the appointed leader of the remain campaign.

"If the UK votes to leave the EU then wages for low paid workers are bound to improve. This is not necessarily a good thing"

Cameron ducked and dived on that and rapidly changed the subject. Didn't like to face TGE truth from the LEADER OF HIS IWN CAMPAIGN!"

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By *rinking-in-laCouple
over a year ago

Bristol

One of the two legislating houses in the UK is entirely unelected and unaccountable.

The only legislating house in thr EU is elected and accountable.

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By *nleashedCrakenMan
over a year ago

Widnes

"the truth is we dont really know what will happen as u cant get a straight answer to anything or proper facts and figures..its all predictions and guess work and bullshit

but all i know is that we need to take a chance .. britain was a great country and we just need to have it back..we shouldnt be worried it'll all work out in the end

I believe that not only was Britain Great but that it is still Great and it will remain Great, whether we leave the EU or not. The question is will it be even Greater if we cooperate with our European neighbours and work together to great a more prosperous Europe with Great Britain in it or if we turn our backs on our friends when they need us the most, leave them to their fate and paddle our own little canoe into uncharted waters. I believe we're better of working with our friends and neighbours.

I'm backing Great Britain; I'm vote Remain.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Its ridiculous to say all leave voters are ukip voters or racist thugs.I find those comments offensive and small minded

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"True the House of Lords are unelected....rather like the EU commissioners?

Only the european parliament make laws."

And the House of Lords can "suggest amendments" to bills drafted in the House of Commons....who can accept or ignore them. The lords do not make laws! The various commissions make directives...which become laws.

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By *rinking-in-laCouple
over a year ago

Bristol

"Its ridiculous to say all leave voters are ukip voters or racist thugs.I find those comments offensive and small minded"

Not all out voters are racist thugs. But all racist thugs are out voters.

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By *rinking-in-laCouple
over a year ago

Bristol

"True the House of Lords are unelected....rather like the EU commissioners?

Only the european parliament make laws.

The Lords do make laws. One recently was passed which started in the Lords. They can also veto laws and stop laws passed by the elected representatives of the country. They do this a lot at the moment.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Its ridiculous to say all leave voters are ukip voters or racist thugs.I find those comments offensive and small minded

Not all out voters are racist thugs. But all racist thugs are out voters. "

Got to love reverse logic.....

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By *nleashedCrakenMan
over a year ago

Widnes

You would run the most boring pub quizzes ever.

No cheating with google now.

Whether there is a democratic deficit in the EU or not (and I don't believe there is) it's not in the European Commission any more than any democratic deficit in Britain or any country could be said to lie in it's Civil Service. The European Commission is a civil service, not a government.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"True the House of Lords are unelected....rather like the EU commissioners?

Only the european parliament make laws.

Not since the parliament act of 1911. A conservative dominated House of Lords blocked legislation by the Liberal government of the day. This was reinforced in 1949. Since then the Kords have been unable to block legislation brought by the House of Commons.....feel free to go and read the parliament act.....

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By *nleashedCrakenMan
over a year ago

Widnes

"I can't get myself worked up about this as a referendum is only a fancy name for consultation.

The government will "consult" with us, smile and nod, say hmmm, I've heard what you've said, but we have decided to remain.

Or am I an old cynic?"

I think you're being over cynical and under realistic. If the vote is to leave we will leave, if you want that vote for it, if you don't vote remain.

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By *ullbackbuttMan
over a year ago

Purton

"Ok a couple of things.

1. If this Toryrendum has served any useful porpose at all it is to indicate that more change is neccesary to how we have our say about the issues of concern. Vote Remain and that message is clear.

Oh and by the way regardless of the fact that the £350 mil figure is wrong what ever we currently pay in, if the economy tanks that money will not be there to invest in any services anyway!

The obvious conclusion is Remain. The EU has its faults and needs to change but you cant win a game of footy from the Locker room you have to be on the pitch!

Simples!

totally agree with you

I agree also.

What I want to know is the genuine figure that tax avoidance is costing us. I believe it might be more than the claimed £34 billion. Some sources report it at £119.4 billion.

Either way we know who benefits and who suffers.

If we got our house in order we would be better off. Also if everyone was to vote in general elections then the government might look different.

I am stepping off my soapbox.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"When those of us in the Brexit side of the debate are called 'charlatans' (twice), liars, racists and bigots I am inclined to stay out of it all as I have been doing post the tragic murder of Jo Cox. However I will just make this comment on a certain individuals post:

Why thank you so much for your reply - it's good to see the charlatans back on the board after a little rest and ready to fiddle their figures while the UK burns.

I've told you my assumption -

So an assumption is taken as fact on the 'Bremain' side. OK we get that.

You need to pay attention. That was in response to Centaurs statement about assumptions. An assumption is taken as an assumption. We don't need you making up words and putting them in people's mouths

a 5.3% average tariff or a 10% tariff if I believe all the Brexiters who chart about it.

You need to read through what's been said in these threads more carefully. You'll find plenty of Brexit posters referring to 10% rates and to trade wars. In fact you even asked me for the source of one of my figures in one of those threads. As the certain individual is me, of course you won't have heard anyone on the Brexit side admitting to the BREXIT TAX. That doesn't mean it doesn't exist, it does mean they and you are uncomfortable with the truth of it.

5.3% is the average rate the EU would be compelled to apply to imports from the UK if we were to go down the WTO route: that's the most favoured nation average rate that you've been happy to refer to in the past.

If we end up with a WTO arrangement the EU would be compelled to apply most favoured nation staus to the UK. That's the same tariffs as they apply to everyone else. That's 5.3% on average. Just pop along to the WTO web site and find it. The UK can apply any import rate it likes. The EU can't. The whole question I was asking was what percentage rate Centaur had assumed to say the situation would be to be tax neutral. You, in your incandescence, seemed to ignore the thread - ready to put out smoke but not a jot of sense.

Well again the statement about 5.3% Tariffs as 'Rules' is repeated when it is about agreement. As you then stated and contradicted yourself. OK we get that thanks.

Again, that's what the thread was discussing. If you don't understand the conditions of dropping into a WTO agrreed set of most favoured nation tariffs then you shopuld stay out of the discussion until you do. All you've shown here is that if you do understand anything you can't put it across very well. Perhaps take a deep breath and count to ten next time.

If we drop our tariffs to zero, the EU is as competitive (or not) as it was before and we are less competitive in EU countries (who have to add the tariff on top).

Well not quite. Whatever Tariffs are agree are applied by both sides. So if we both agree zero% then that is applied all over the Eu for UK goods.

Again if we drop into a WTO agreement then the EU has no choice - it must apply the MFN tariffs. Thank you for reiterating my point that if we both agree 0% no tariffs will be charged - just like the situation as it is right now.

Brexit campaigners are quite happy to lie about the loss each and everyone of us will make from such a poor ill thought out deal.

With respect you are wrong and clearly have not read the threads. I calculated or fabricated if you like a figure and gave the basis for that calculation and offered the opportuunity for some wise Brexiter to challenge it with a calculated figure. So far I haven't received an intelligent answer - and that includes yours.

What we have had, for example, is you misrepresenting the net payment to the EU by telling partial truths, but I'll leave you to whinge on about that separately - as you do further down in your response.

You won't tell us what we'll lose in terms of our own personal freedoms, freedom of movement, protection of workers, human rights and so on and on and on.

OK I will:

* Personal freedoms and workers rights to do with working hours, health and safety and employment rights have all been attacked by Brexit campaigners in this debate - read Minfords manifesto for the economy. I think I'll believe his threats as he's central to your campaign rather than you, some minion on a swingers web site. We have no reason whatsoever to believe any of you who form a break away Brexit group to claim that they will be preserved. After all they're the hated laws and regulations that you rant on about.

* You do know that human rights are fundamental to the EU treaties don't you? Oh no you don't - time for you to do some homework. That's why one of your Brexit pals was going on earlier in this thread about Turkey.

There's another Brexit tax for you: a loss of £1600 per year for every family in the country. Obviously you can spare that. Most can't.

The figures I quoted were from the treasury committee who did a very thorough review of the costs of EU membership. I'm using the form of words that they believed was acceptable about the treasury's forecast and the broad consensus of forecasts.

The Brexit tax is a lovely soundbite isn't it. And I'll note that by telling us it's 50% out, you accept that it exists.

I've no idea where you got those numbers from but I'm sure you can explain them at very great length and then I can go through them line by line for you. As it is they are totally irrelevant to the points we were discussing before your interruption

You go on and say whatever you like. You're already making up any old numbers you see fit, so go ahead and make up a name for them if it makes you happy. There are plenty of other people on here now happy to chgallenge your use of the wrong values for the net figures' . That you think that your threat to make up a number at random (whether or not it comes from _abio) which you know is wrong and that's supposed to carry any weight all speaks volumes about your contribution. Do carry on making up numbers, it makes this more fun.

I'll stick with the Brexit tax as the cost to the economy of Brexit. That you don't like it makes me think it's too close to the truth for you.

And it's been the case that every time the Brexit crew don't like an opinion they try to silence the person. Let me say now, if that's your aim you'd better be ready to wait for hell to freeze over.

The UK has a seat at the table that decides how the money allocated to the EU is spent. That is control. You use the word control as if you are losing it all the time. Control is much more subtle than you thinking that by asking 'can we please bin' that it's going to have any effect at all except to make you look like someone desparate to suppress debate - a sure sign of someone losing the argument as well as control.

Post Brexit it will be a UK Government that decides how ALL of that cash will be spent. Not the EU Commissioners. And simply because the EU funds a project here doesn't mean we will choose to fund it after we leave. It may have NO priority for the greater good of the UK at all. Conversely we may choose to increase spending on some projects that benefit the UK directly. Like giving properly structured subsidies to British Farmers, who are the most efficient in the EU, so we can unleash all of that potential currently being wasted in 'set aside' etc. So the sum is £13.2 (or £12.9) Bn. Nothing less.

The EU commissioners don't decide how the money is spent. The nation states decide on the budget and how it is allocated.

My understanding is that the Brexit crew are telling us that post Brexit we'll have two years to sort things out. Are you not supporting that line? Not that it's important if you are or not - you have no say over what happens post a Brexit vote. No control over it whatsoever and for those two years you''d be hoping and praying for the spending plans to work out and for there not to be a recession. That's the Brexit tax for you.

Thank you for adding to Brexit uncertainty by telling us that existing funding may be removed from existing projects. That puts the lie to all those Brexit promises that funding would be maintained.

Mind you, you're just another guy ranting away on the internet so in fact you have no ability to tell us what will happen, you merely have an opinion, which you put forward forcefully but without substance. Unless of coursse you are Farage's incarnation on earth.

So, getting back to the point, as I said it looks like the Brexit tax would be anything between £2.5 billion and £16 billion base don the assumptions I gave. Now if any of you bold Brexiteers can tell me how you get to be tax neutral, I'll be pleased to hear from you.

Previous applicants need not reapply unless they can talk some sense.

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