FabSwingers.com forum: No BREXIT ;-)

By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

Say yay if u love the Europeans

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Yay

Hot Polish women

Sexy Lithuanian women

Spanish brunettes

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By *rightonsteveMan
over a year ago

Brighton - even Hove!

I very much like French ladies

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By *anchestercubMan
over a year ago

manchester & NI

Yay to Dutch dicks

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By *nleashedCrakenMan
over a year ago

Widnes

I'm backing Britain, I'm voting IN

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Never Fly East

Fly West

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By *entaur_UKMan
over a year ago

Cannock

"Say yay if u love the Europeans

I love Europeans but Europe and the EU are 2 different things entirely.

Europe is a geographical location.

The EU is a corrupt, undemocratic, bureaucratic, political, wannabe Superstate.

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

"Say yay if u love the Europeans

I love Europeans but Europe and the EU are 2 different things entirely.

Europe is a geographical location.

The EU is a corrupt, undemocratic, bureaucratic, political, wannabe Superstate. "

But isn't immigration the main card of the BREXIT camp? It strikes of a self superiority complex to me...in in the long term these complexes only create problems :-0

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I love Italian food.

I love French wine , bread & cheese.

I adore Croatia.

I'm voting out. None of the above will change.

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By *nleashedCrakenMan
over a year ago

Widnes

"Say yay if u love the Europeans

I love Europeans but Europe and the EU are 2 different things entirely.

Europe is a geographical location.

The EU is a corrupt, undemocratic, bureaucratic, political, wannabe Superstate. "

FFS man! Go start your own Backing BREXIT thread and leave us to have a little fun here on our. LOL

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

The EU is not the whole of Europe. I like the Swiss and Norwegians too. Voting out is not anti European.

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By *entaur_UKMan
over a year ago

Cannock

"Say yay if u love the Europeans

I love Europeans but Europe and the EU are 2 different things entirely.

Europe is a geographical location.

The EU is a corrupt, undemocratic, bureaucratic, political, wannabe Superstate.

FFS man! Go start your own Backing BREXIT thread and leave us to have a little fun here on our. LOL "

I'll post on whichever thread I like, thanks all the same.

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

"The EU is not the whole of Europe. I like the Swiss and Norwegians too. Voting out is not anti European. "

Voting out is a play on differences not sameness I think :-0

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"The EU is not the whole of Europe. I like the Swiss and Norwegians too. Voting out is not anti European.

Voting out is a play on differences not sameness I think :-0"

Voting out is not based on one factor is it? It's a multitude? We will not be out of Europe, we aren't chucked off the continent. And we aren't the only EU country that is pissed off with the EU.

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By *anchestercubMan
over a year ago

manchester & NI

"Say yay if u love the Europeans

I love Europeans but Europe and the EU are 2 different things entirely.

Europe is a geographical location.

The EU is a corrupt, undemocratic, bureaucratic, political, wannabe Superstate. "

But so many Europeans are here because of the EU, do you want them to go home?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

This thread is like fucking your neighbour, it was fun at first, then one person gets serious and it all ends in tears

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Say yay if u love the Europeans

I love Europeans but Europe and the EU are 2 different things entirely.

Europe is a geographical location.

The EU is a corrupt, undemocratic, bureaucratic, political, wannabe Superstate. "

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"This thread is like fucking your neighbour, it was fun at first, then one person gets serious and it all ends in tears

Nah, it's just a discussion. I'm not deciding my vote based on here.

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

"The EU is not the whole of Europe. I like the Swiss and Norwegians too. Voting out is not anti European.

Voting out is a play on differences not sameness I think :-0

Voting out is not based on one factor is it? It's a multitude? We will not be out of Europe, we aren't chucked off the continent. And we aren't the only EU country that is pissed off with the EU. "

What is one good other factor that trumps economic development through an enlarged zone? Worries over control on immigration isn't it?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"The EU is not the whole of Europe. I like the Swiss and Norwegians too. Voting out is not anti European.

Voting out is a play on differences not sameness I think :-0

Voting out is not based on one factor is it? It's a multitude? We will not be out of Europe, we aren't chucked off the continent. And we aren't the only EU country that is pissed off with the EU.

What is one good other factor that trumps economic development through an enlarged zone? Worries over control on immigration isn't it?"

My own view? We seem to end up bailing everyone else out all the time. And immigration isn't what I have an issue with. It's the inability to vet people such as criminals because it would be against their human rights. I'm from a family of immigrants. Aren't we intelligent enough as a Nation to run ourselves ? I'm still undecided anyway.

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By *entaur_UKMan
over a year ago

Cannock

"The EU is not the whole of Europe. I like the Swiss and Norwegians too. Voting out is not anti European.

Voting out is a play on differences not sameness I think :-0

Voting out is not based on one factor is it? It's a multitude? We will not be out of Europe, we aren't chucked off the continent. And we aren't the only EU country that is pissed off with the EU.

What is one good other factor that trumps economic development through an enlarged zone? Worries over control on immigration isn't it?"

Returning democracy and 100% sovereignty to the UK.

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

"The EU is not the whole of Europe. I like the Swiss and Norwegians too. Voting out is not anti European.

Voting out is a play on differences not sameness I think :-0

Voting out is not based on one factor is it? It's a multitude? We will not be out of Europe, we aren't chucked off the continent. And we aren't the only EU country that is pissed off with the EU.

What is one good other factor that trumps economic development through an enlarged zone? Worries over control on immigration isn't it?

Returning democracy and 100% sovereignty to the UK. "

So that we don't have to collude with Europeans? :-0

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By *etter the devil you knowWoman
over a year ago

Lyndhurst

"Say yay if u love the Europeans

I love Europeans but Europe and the EU are 2 different things entirely.

Europe is a geographical location.

The EU is a corrupt, undemocratic, bureaucratic, political, wannabe Superstate. "

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I worked with a French woman who was a right nasty piece of work so I'm not going to say yes,I like all Europeans.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"The EU is not the whole of Europe. I like the Swiss and Norwegians too. Voting out is not anti European.

Voting out is a play on differences not sameness I think :-0

Voting out is not based on one factor is it? It's a multitude? We will not be out of Europe, we aren't chucked off the continent. And we aren't the only EU country that is pissed off with the EU.

What is one good other factor that trumps economic development through an enlarged zone? Worries over control on immigration isn't it?

Returning democracy and 100% sovereignty to the UK. "

Dreamer.

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By *entaur_UKMan
over a year ago

Cannock

"The EU is not the whole of Europe. I like the Swiss and Norwegians too. Voting out is not anti European.

Voting out is a play on differences not sameness I think :-0

Voting out is not based on one factor is it? It's a multitude? We will not be out of Europe, we aren't chucked off the continent. And we aren't the only EU country that is pissed off with the EU.

What is one good other factor that trumps economic development through an enlarged zone? Worries over control on immigration isn't it?

Returning democracy and 100% sovereignty to the UK.

So that we don't have to collude with Europeans? :-0"

We can be good neighbours with Europe, trade with Europe and cooperate with Europe but we don't have to be part of the monstrosity called the EU to do it.

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By *abioMan
over a year ago

Newcastle and Gateshead

FFS man! Go start your own Backing BREXIT thread and leave us to have a little fun here on our. LOL "

my god where does that phrase almost sound familiar....

hmmmmmmmmmm

off to out a few people who have spoken in this thread.....

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

"The EU is not the whole of Europe. I like the Swiss and Norwegians too. Voting out is not anti European.

Voting out is a play on differences not sameness I think :-0

Voting out is not based on one factor is it? It's a multitude? We will not be out of Europe, we aren't chucked off the continent. And we aren't the only EU country that is pissed off with the EU.

What is one good other factor that trumps economic development through an enlarged zone? Worries over control on immigration isn't it?

Returning democracy and 100% sovereignty to the UK.

So that we don't have to collude with Europeans? :-0

We can be good neighbours with Europe, trade with Europe and cooperate with Europe but we don't have to be part of the monstrosity called the EU to do it. "

Monstrous because it's too big? Why is it monstrous...economists are all in favour of a larger freer fluid trading zone

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Yay

I spend half my life in Spain and will retire there to live among my Spanish friends.

EU? nay

OUT

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Say yay if u love the Europeans

I love Europeans but Europe and the EU are 2 different things entirely.

Europe is a geographical location.

The EU is a corrupt, undemocratic, bureaucratic, political, wannabe Superstate. "

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I can't wait for the 23rd!

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By *anchestercubMan
over a year ago

manchester & NI

"Yay

I spend half my life in Spain and will retire there to live among my Spanish friends.

EU? nay

OUT"

Have you worked much in Spain?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Say yay if u love the Europeans

I love Europeans but Europe and the EU are 2 different things entirely.

Europe is a geographical location.

The EU is a corrupt, undemocratic, bureaucratic, political, wannabe Superstate.

But so many Europeans are here because of the EU, do you want them to go home? "

They won't all go home

. Why should they just because we say no? They're not here because of the EU they're here because we (britain) offer more hope and stability...oh and our pound is stronger than the euro too. Little of that will change if we vote out.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Yay

I spend half my life in Spain and will retire there to live among my Spanish friends.

EU? nay

OUT"

Well unless you have a spanish passport or one from another member of the EU if Britain exit you don't know if you'll be allowed to retire to Spain until the legislation is drawn up regarding free movement.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

(m) replying

My family is Scottish, born in Yorkshire with German, Italian, Swiss relatives and family members all over the world.

Ask the man/woman off the street in Italian about the EU and a nasty reply will come your way.

Today the Swiss parliament has ordered the Foreign Minister (Hr Burkhalter) to stop all negotiations with the EU and to revoke the agreements signed in 1980 for the possible application of membership.

My German relatives say that the EU has "smashed" their way of living and that they are poorer now then before the introduction of the Euro.

So what has the EU brought to Europe ?

Nothing much except maybe more cultural exchange but is that enough to cover the working poor in Italy, France and other countries ?

As said I grew up abroad, did 2 years military services in the Alps with every 2 years additional 5 weeks as officer ... I speak fluent German, Italian, French and other languages but does that make me an European ?

The answer is no it makes me a "Human" (Ich bin ein Mensch)...

The EU has forgotten that we are the people and the people wish something else...not more paper, not more government, not more meddling in our affairs.....

But do I hate others the answer no...I respect all and accept everyone's attitude and opinions...Their desires and their wishes... As they as well are "Humans" which we treat with respect and kindness - not with fear, anger and rumors..

All I hear from Cameron and Co. is fear..that is not what we need... But to respect and enjoy...

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By *randMrs Spanish BrunetteCouple
over a year ago

home sweet home

"Yay

Hot Polish women

Sexy Lithuanian women

Spanish brunettes

Thank you Mr Butler

MrsSB

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

"(m) replying

My family is Scottish, born in Yorkshire with German, Italian, Swiss relatives and family members all over the world.

Ask the man/woman off the street in Italian about the EU and a nasty reply will come your way.

My German relatives say that the EU has "smashed" their way of living and that they are poorer now then before the introduction of the Euro.

So what has the EU brought to Europe ?

Nothing much except maybe more cultural exchange but is that enough to cover the working poor in Italy, France and other countries ?

The answer is no it makes me a "Human" (Ich bin ein Mensch)...

The EU has forgotten that we are the people and the people wish something else...not more paper, not more government, not more meddling in our affairs.....

All I hear from Cameron and Co. is fear..that is not what we need... But to respect and enjoy...

Yes some would gain some would lose but the economic argument is that overall there is a massive gain.

So what are we gaining by BREXIT?

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By *nleashedCrakenMan
over a year ago

Widnes

"Say yay if u love the Europeans

I love Europeans but Europe and the EU are 2 different things entirely.

Europe is a geographical location.

The EU is a corrupt, undemocratic, bureaucratic, political, wannabe Superstate.

FFS man! Go start your own Backing BREXIT thread and leave us to have a little fun here on our. LOL

I'll post on whichever thread I like, thanks all the same. "

sense of humour not working today or something.

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By *nleashedCrakenMan
over a year ago

Widnes

"This thread is like fucking your neighbour, it was fun at first, then one person gets serious and it all ends in tears

PMSFL

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Yay

I spend half my life in Spain and will retire there to live among my Spanish friends.

EU? nay

OUT

Have you worked much in Spain? "

worked there for 4 years

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By *ophieslutTV/TS
over a year ago

Central

Vote no and get more of the same but with unstable market conditions. Free movement of people is continuing for years to come. Fuck the £ by voting out, so that you can think your little backyard is home ruled. Turkeys and Christmas.

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By *abioMan
over a year ago

Newcastle and Gateshead

"Say yay if u love the Europeans

I love Europeans but Europe and the EU are 2 different things entirely.

Europe is a geographical location.

The EU is a corrupt, undemocratic, bureaucratic, political, wannabe Superstate.

FFS man! Go start your own Backing BREXIT thread and leave us to have a little fun here on our. LOL

I'll post on whichever thread I like, thanks all the same.

sense of humour not working today or something. "

nah... i just remember him asking the same question when i interrupted one of his threads.......

I hate to throw around the word "hypocrite"..... but if the shoe fits....

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By *ouple in LancashireCouple
over a year ago

in Lancashire

"The EU is not the whole of Europe. I like the Swiss and Norwegians too. Voting out is not anti European.

Voting out is a play on differences not sameness I think :-0

Voting out is not based on one factor is it? It's a multitude? We will not be out of Europe, we aren't chucked off the continent. And we aren't the only EU country that is pissed off with the EU.

What is one good other factor that trumps economic development through an enlarged zone? Worries over control on immigration isn't it?

Returning democracy and 100% sovereignty to the UK. "

oh so we get to abolish the House of Lords at the same time?

because if we dont then guess what..

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By *htcMan
over a year ago

i like europe but do not agree with the rules, i voted leave

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By *nleashedCrakenMan
over a year ago

Widnes

"The EU is not the whole of Europe. I like the Swiss and Norwegians too. Voting out is not anti European.

Voting out is a play on differences not sameness I think :-0

Voting out is not based on one factor is it? It's a multitude? We will not be out of Europe, we aren't chucked off the continent. And we aren't the only EU country that is pissed off with the EU.

What is one good other factor that trumps economic development through an enlarged zone? Worries over control on immigration isn't it?

Returning democracy and 100% sovereignty to the UK. "

You really think that having no say in what happens in Europe, and will affect us, actually increases out sovereignty?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Say yay if u love the Europeans

Does this include the Polish?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Yay

I spend half my life in Spain and will retire there to live among my Spanish friends.

EU? nay

OUT

nonsense, free movement will still be in place as long as you have a job to go to or can support yourself. Do you think they will take my property off me too? No, that is protected by international law. Do you think nobody emigrated or anybody came to the UK before we were in the EU?

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

"Say yay if u love the Europeans

Does this include the Polish?"

'hug a hoodie' yes lol

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Say yay if u love the Europeans

Does this include the Polish?

'hug a hoodie' yes lol"

Then it's a "no".

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

"Say yay if u love the Europeans

Does this include the Polish?

'hug a hoodie' yes lol

Then it's a "no"."

That's exactly what I am saying... should Polebashing be a factor in the referendum? :-0

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By *horehouseCouple
over a year ago

dissatisfied

"The EU is not the whole of Europe. I like the Swiss and Norwegians too. Voting out is not anti European.

Voting out is a play on differences not sameness I think :-0

Voting out is not based on one factor is it? It's a multitude? We will not be out of Europe, we aren't chucked off the continent. And we aren't the only EU country that is pissed off with the EU.

What is one good other factor that trumps economic development through an enlarged zone? Worries over control on immigration isn't it?

Returning democracy and 100% sovereignty to the UK. "
only in YOUR mind as previously said the UK system of government is undemocratic as for sovereignty we are already a sovereign nation ...if you like trump so much go stateside ....oh you cant can you you umbilical cord is still firmly attached to England .....

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Say yay if u love the Europeans

Does this include the Polish?

'hug a hoodie' yes lol

Then it's a "no".

That's exactly what I am saying... should Polebashing be a factor in the referendum? :-0"

Nah.

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

"Say yay if u love the Europeans

Does this include the Polish?

'hug a hoodie' yes lol

Then it's a "no".

That's exactly what I am saying... should Polebashing be a factor in the referendum? :-0

Nah. "

Lol good. Then I feel we have everything to gain by staying in the EU

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By *nleashedCrakenMan
over a year ago

Widnes

"Say yay if u love the Europeans

I love Europeans but Europe and the EU are 2 different things entirely.

Europe is a geographical location.

The EU is a corrupt, undemocratic, bureaucratic, political, wannabe Superstate.

But so many Europeans are here because of the EU, do you want them to go home?

They won't all go home

Actually I would think most of that could change when we leave. The pound won't necessarily remain stronger than the Euro, as trade becomes more difficult between Britain and the rest of Europe we will no longer offer hope or stability but despair and discord but we may solve EU immigration, not because of and new points based policy but because no one will want to come to the bankrupt, backwards looking country BREXIT wants us all to live in.

Turkeys voting for Christmas.

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By *horehouseCouple
over a year ago

dissatisfied

"Yay

I spend half my life in Spain and will retire there to live among my Spanish friends.

EU? nay

OUT"
hopefully not....we will be lobbying the Spanish government to ban anymore UK immigrants here after brexit ..totally bloody disgusting attitude dont want immigrants in the UK but its ok for you to be an immigrant in the EU !!!!!!!!

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Yay

I spend half my life in Spain and will retire there to live among my Spanish friends.

EU? nay

OUThopefully not....we will be lobbying the Spanish government to ban anymore UK immigrants here after brexit ..totally bloody disgusting attitude dont want immigrants in the UK but its ok for you to be an immigrant in the EU !!!!!!!!"

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Yay!

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By *entaur_UKMan
over a year ago

Cannock

"(m) replying

My family is Scottish, born in Yorkshire with German, Italian, Swiss relatives and family members all over the world.

Ask the man/woman off the street in Italian about the EU and a nasty reply will come your way.

My German relatives say that the EU has "smashed" their way of living and that they are poorer now then before the introduction of the Euro.

So what has the EU brought to Europe ?

Nothing much except maybe more cultural exchange but is that enough to cover the working poor in Italy, France and other countries ?

The answer is no it makes me a "Human" (Ich bin ein Mensch)...

The EU has forgotten that we are the people and the people wish something else...not more paper, not more government, not more meddling in our affairs.....

All I hear from Cameron and Co. is fear..that is not what we need... But to respect and enjoy...

Great post and I agree. I think the way the Remain campaign are trying to stereotype all Leave voters as anti European is completely wrong and needs to be opposed.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"(m) replying

My family is Scottish, born in Yorkshire with German, Italian, Swiss relatives and family members all over the world.

Ask the man/woman off the street in Italian about the EU and a nasty reply will come your way.

My German relatives say that the EU has "smashed" their way of living and that they are poorer now then before the introduction of the Euro.

So what has the EU brought to Europe ?

Nothing much except maybe more cultural exchange but is that enough to cover the working poor in Italy, France and other countries ?

The answer is no it makes me a "Human" (Ich bin ein Mensch)...

The EU has forgotten that we are the people and the people wish something else...not more paper, not more government, not more meddling in our affairs.....

All I hear from Cameron and Co. is fear..that is not what we need... But to respect and enjoy...

Great post and I agree. I think the way the Remain campaign are trying to stereotype all Leave voters as anti European is completely wrong and needs to be opposed.

You're priceless.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Yay

I spend half my life in Spain and will retire there to live among my Spanish friends.

EU? nay

OUT

Didn't mention anything about taking property off you. L

Also its hypocritical you want Britain out of the EU but wish to emigrate into a country within the EU.

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By *horehouseCouple
over a year ago

dissatisfied

"(m) replying

My family is Scottish, born in Yorkshire with German, Italian, Swiss relatives and family members all over the world.

Ask the man/woman off the street in Italian about the EU and a nasty reply will come your way.

My German relatives say that the EU has "smashed" their way of living and that they are poorer now then before the introduction of the Euro.

So what has the EU brought to Europe ?

Nothing much except maybe more cultural exchange but is that enough to cover the working poor in Italy, France and other countries ?

The answer is no it makes me a "Human" (Ich bin ein Mensch)...

The EU has forgotten that we are the people and the people wish something else...not more paper, not more government, not more meddling in our affairs.....

All I hear from Cameron and Co. is fear..that is not what we need... But to respect and enjoy...

Great post and I agree. I think the way the Remain campaign are trying to stereotype all Leave voters as anti European is completely wrong and needs to be opposed.

You're priceless."

He's driven by the hatred that emanates from the UKIP a party driven by hatred against the EU hatred against gays hatred against equality for women

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By *nleashedCrakenMan
over a year ago

Widnes

"Yay

I spend half my life in Spain and will retire there to live among my Spanish friends.

EU? nay

OUT

Actually property is not protected by international law. Your property would remain protected by EU law and international conventions. But that assumes the EU survives BREXIT and Spain remains in it. If the EU collapses or Spain leaves then you would have no protection in law.

The reality is that, even if you had no protection in law, it's extremely unlikely that Spain would start confiscating property. However, whether as an older person who many in Spain might think as a drain on their public services, you would be allowed to live there is much more debatable.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Yay

I spend half my life in Spain and will retire there to live among my Spanish friends.

EU? nay

OUT

utter nonsense. When was the last time you spoke to your abogado?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Yay

I spend half my life in Spain and will retire there to live among my Spanish friends.

EU? nay

OUT

I thought a lot of Spain were fed up with all our ex pats taking over anyway. As I understand we can't access their medical services there without paying so how is that a drain on resources?

Brexit isn't saying everyone go home is it? It's saying, you may need a visa to work just as the Australians do. And yes it would be the same for us working in EU countries. The EU countries are a small element of the whole world though aren't they? Or is my geography gone mad.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Yay

I spend half my life in Spain and will retire there to live among my Spanish friends.

EU? nay

you will be lobbying the Spanish government?

you aint even got a Residencia, I've got more say in Spain than you

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Yay

I spend half my life in Spain and will retire there to live among my Spanish friends.

EU? nay

OUT

Didn't mention anything about taking property off you. L

Also its hypocritical you want Britain out of the EU but wish to emigrate into a country within the EU."

Why? I want Spain out of the EU too

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By *horehouseCouple
over a year ago

dissatisfied

"Yay

I spend half my life in Spain and will retire there to live among my Spanish friends.

EU? nay

OUT

Didn't mention anything about taking property off you. L

Also its hypocritical you want Britain out of the EU but wish to emigrate into a country within the EU.

Why? I want Spain out of the EU too"

How do you think Spain out of the EU will help with your retirement there ? I thought they were a net beneficiary of the EU ?

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By *entaur_UKMan
over a year ago

Cannock

"Vote no and get more of the same but with unstable market conditions. Free movement of people is continuing for years to come. Fuck the £ by voting out, so that you can think your little backyard is home ruled. Turkeys and Christmas."

Well a report compiled by strategists at Deutsche Bank released in todays newspapers predict that the UK's top companies will outperform their EU-based rivals by as much as 5% in the wake of a Brexit. They say a vote to leave the EU would cause panic on European stockmarkets, causing them to fall by as much as 10%, but London FTSE 100 index of blue-chip companies will perform better, boosted by a weak Pound (£). That will also be good for exporters as it will make British goods cheaper for European countries to buy. Deutsche Bank's Sebastian Raedler who helped compile the research said, "If this is correct the FTSE 100 should outperform the Stoxx 600 (the wider european markets) by around 5%.

Financier Jeremy Hosking, a successful Investment manager said, "The city of London will experience an unprecedented boom when we are liberated from the EU. The city of London has proven itself time and again to be a flexible and innovative market place with world beating experience. I know that many more City people support Brexit than say so publicly because they are confident in what we have to offer, despite the histrionics"

Shares in UK firms in the FTSE 100 rocketed by a fifth after the UK left the European Exchange Rate Mechanism in 1992.

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By *entaur_UKMan
over a year ago

Cannock

"(m) replying

My family is Scottish, born in Yorkshire with German, Italian, Swiss relatives and family members all over the world.

Ask the man/woman off the street in Italian about the EU and a nasty reply will come your way.

My German relatives say that the EU has "smashed" their way of living and that they are poorer now then before the introduction of the Euro.

So what has the EU brought to Europe ?

Nothing much except maybe more cultural exchange but is that enough to cover the working poor in Italy, France and other countries ?

The answer is no it makes me a "Human" (Ich bin ein Mensch)...

The EU has forgotten that we are the people and the people wish something else...not more paper, not more government, not more meddling in our affairs.....

All I hear from Cameron and Co. is fear..that is not what we need... But to respect and enjoy...

Great post and I agree. I think the way the Remain campaign are trying to stereotype all Leave voters as anti European is completely wrong and needs to be opposed.

You're priceless.

He's driven by the hatred that emanates from the UKIP a party driven by hatred against the EU hatred against gays hatred against equality for women "

Keep up with the personal abuse and the insults you are only making yourself look bad.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Shares in UK firms in the FTSE 100 rocketed by a fifth after the UK left the European Exchange Rate Mechanism in 1992.

Brilliant, so it's the official Brexit position now, is it, that we can fully expect the stock market to fall by 5% as it performs 5% better than a 10% loss on European exchanges? Brexit causes the fall, Brexit damages European economies, Brexit damages the UK economy.

Thanks for that pearl of wisdom.

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By *horehouseCouple
over a year ago

dissatisfied

Shares in UK firms in the FTSE 100 rocketed by a fifth after the UK left the European Exchange Rate Mechanism in 1992.

Ahh a German bank knows better than our economic adviser's and the bank of England ...more unbelievable jackanory stories from your good self

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By *entaur_UKMan
over a year ago

Cannock

"Yay

I spend half my life in Spain and will retire there to live among my Spanish friends.

EU? nay

you will be lobbying the Spanish government?

you aint even got a Residencia, I've got more say in Spain than you

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By *inky-MinxWoman
over a year ago

Grantham

"I'm backing Britain, I'm voting IN"

That's a contradiction in terms you realise

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By *rivate auditionsMan
over a year ago

West Midlands

"Say yay if u love the Europe

But isn't immigration the main card of the BREXIT camp? It strikes of a self superiority complex to me...in in the long term these complexes only create problems :-0"

NO!,it isn't!,it's about jobs but the IN nerds are a one trick pony and it is they who talk immigration at every opportunity because they know that our jobs are slipping madly away from us with the EU funding our industrial demise,EU are funding firms to close in the uk and re locate to other countries,not just in europe but even to south america!,companises like Peugeot cars,Ford trucks,Hoover,Cadburys,Jaguar land rover,Metal Box,and a great long list of other companies have recieved EU aid up to £70-80 millions to re-locate in Slovakia,Poland,Indonesia,Turkey,Brazil at a loss of 100,000s of Britons jobs!,all lost through aid given by our own money all conveniently Glossed over by the IN nerds!.

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By *inky-MinxWoman
over a year ago

Grantham

"I think the way the Remain campaign are trying to stereotype all Leave voters as anti European is completely wrong and needs to be opposed. "

Totally agree. What people don't seem to get is that the EU is NOT Europe. It is a huge governing body full of corruption and craziness.

That's what I want out of, and so do large numbers of European citizens. We don't hate each other, we just want rid of the EU, the institution.

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By *horehouseCouple
over a year ago

dissatisfied

"I think the way the Remain campaign are trying to stereotype all Leave voters as anti European is completely wrong and needs to be opposed.

Totally agree. What people don't seem to get is that the EU is NOT Europe. It is a huge governing body full of corruption and craziness.

That's what I want out of, and so do large numbers of European citizens. We don't hate each other, we just want rid of the EU, the institution."
the UK sticking two fingers up to the EU is the UK sticking two fingers up to 27 European nations .....the EU is how we trade with those 27 Nations ....

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By *entaur_UKMan
over a year ago

Cannock

Shares in UK firms in the FTSE 100 rocketed by a fifth after the UK left the European Exchange Rate Mechanism in 1992.

Thanks for that pearl of wisdom."

Did you actually bother to read what i wrote? I never said it was the "official" Brexit position. It is simply a report compiled by strategists at Deutsche bank. But as per usual you continue to try to mislead and put words in other people's mouths.

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By *inky-MinxWoman
over a year ago

Grantham

Trade agreements are only part of it.

Anyone who wants to turn leaving the EU into a 'race' thing needs to calm down on the Political Correctness pills

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By *horehouseCouple
over a year ago

dissatisfied

"Yay

I spend half my life in Spain and will retire there to live among my Spanish friends.

EU? nay

you will be lobbying the Spanish government?

you aint even got a Residencia, I've got more say in Spain than you

Many British holiday makers who have property here have residencia means jack shit we pay into social security here as long as you do now there's no problem your not cheating the Spanish social security system are you ?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Shares in UK firms in the FTSE 100 rocketed by a fifth after the UK left the European Exchange Rate Mechanism in 1992.

Thanks for that pearl of wisdom.

You are the one who told us that we would be 5% better off than people who would be 10% worse off. That's us being 5% worse off. It was your choice of expert opinion, your words, your mouth, so to speak.

So you were gloating about the loss to the UK because of Brexit being slightly less than the loss to Europeans. If it happens Brexit causes the fall, Brexit damages European economies, Brexit damages the UK economy.

What a gem, please keep your Brexit tax to yourself.

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By *entaur_UKMan
over a year ago

Cannock

Shares in UK firms in the FTSE 100 rocketed by a fifth after the UK left the European Exchange Rate Mechanism in 1992.

Thanks for that pearl of wisdom.

What a gem, please keep your Brexit tax to yourself."

No, you tried to imply it was the "official" Brexit position when i said no such thing. Also it is not my words, it is the words of strategists at Deutsche bank, who i simply quoted.

Misleading and trying to pull a fast one seems to be a habit of yours.

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By *inky-MinxWoman
over a year ago

Grantham

"So you were gloating about the loss to the UK because of Brexit being slightly less than the loss to Europeans. If it happens Brexit causes the fall, Brexit damages European economies, Brexit damages the UK economy.

What a gem, please keep your Brexit tax to yourself."

Nobody knows what Brexit means, no one can tell the future.

Recall how not joining the Euro was going to ruin us. It's ruining Europe instead

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I wonder who came up with the term Brexit?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Shares in UK firms in the FTSE 100 rocketed by a fifth after the UK left the European Exchange Rate Mechanism in 1992.

Thanks for that pearl of wisdom.

What a gem, please keep your Brexit tax to yourself.

No, you tried to imply it was the "official" Brexit position when i said no such thing. Also it is not my words, it is the words of strategists at Deutsche bank, who i simply quoted.

Misleading and trying to pull a fast one seems to be a habit of yours. "

That's it, go for the smoke screen again.

You were quoting it because you thought it meant we'd be better off than Johnny Foreigner. What it actually says is that if it costs some European £10000 it'll cost one of us £5000. Of course it's not the official Brexit position because it is far too near the truth to be official Brexit nonsense.

It's another example of experts saying we'll be worse off under Brexit and that our friends in Europe will be too. Thank you very much for bringing it to light and you can stop trying to weasel out of it now.

Keep your Brexit tax to yourself.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I want my country back.

It used to be a country that, on the whole, would accept and absorb people from different cultures. The national dish became chicken tikka masala. Jamaican music gave rise to a vibrant youth culture in the 60s and 70s. Italians brought us their coffee and ice cream. Every big city has a buzzing Chinatown.

But now with this ?#?Brexit? debate my country has become an intolerant, selfish and brittle place where working class communities have been persuaded that migrants are more to blame for their problems than super rich parasites like Philip Green.

So yes, I do want my country back.

That's why I'm voting Remain

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By *horehouseCouple
over a year ago

dissatisfied

Shares in UK firms in the FTSE 100 rocketed by a fifth after the UK left the European Exchange Rate Mechanism in 1992.

Thanks for that pearl of wisdom.

What a gem, please keep your Brexit tax to yourself.

No, you tried to imply it was the "official" Brexit position when i said no such thing. Also it is not my words, it is the words of strategists at Deutsche bank, who i simply quoted.

Misleading and trying to pull a fast one seems to be a habit of yours. "

So to recap brexit will cause a falling pound .billions wiped of the stock market loss of many jobs ..higher inflation as a result of a falling pound ..and the brexiters dint see that as bad news REALY ......

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

What a gem, please keep your Brexit tax to yourself.

Nobody knows what Brexit means, no one can tell the future.

Recall how not joining the Euro was going to ruin us. It's ruining Europe instead

That would be the 14 EU countries in Europe that have higher growth rates than the UK?

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By *inky-MinxWoman
over a year ago

Grantham

"I want my country back.

So yes, I do want my country back.

That's why I'm voting Remain

Not everyone is that shallow. I want out because I know how the EU works and it's not good for the UK, or any other country in Europe. It's only any good for the people who run it.

Wanting to be out of a corrupt institution does not make people racist by default.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

No its not the main card,, what about the 240 mill a week we give to them, we could use that herein the uk for things we need, then theres our laws being made in europe and enforced here, i wont go on but immigration is a factor yes, but not all of it.yea we love the europeans but not the EU , come the 23rd we will be out, if were still in,, cam-moron will have fixed the vote and there will be uproar..

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By *inky-MinxWoman
over a year ago

Grantham

"brexit will cause a falling pound .billions wiped of the stock market loss of many jobs ..higher inflation as a result of a falling pound ..and the brexiters dint see that as bad news REALY ......"

No one knows, it's all conjecture with a good dose of total bollocks thrown in.

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By *HaRiFMan
over a year ago

Beyond the shadows.

I love you all Europeans or Not

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I want my country back.

So yes, I do want my country back.

That's why I'm voting Remain

Not everyone is that shallow. I want out because I know how the EU works and it's not good for the UK, or any other country in Europe. It's only any good for the people who run it.

Wanting to be out of a corrupt institution does not make people racist by default."

I don't think it does, but the leave campaign has been an incredibly reckless one based almost entirely on anti immigrant feeling.

I'm aware of how the EU works - it's far from perfect and needs reform. I don't believe it is inherently a corrupt institution, and could equally identify your arguments as shallow but have no need

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By *inky-MinxWoman
over a year ago

Grantham

"I love you all Europeans or Not

you too

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By *horehouseCouple
over a year ago

dissatisfied

"No its not the main card,, what about the 240 mill a week we give to them, we could use that herein the uk for things we need, then theres our laws being made in europe and enforced here, i wont go on but immigration is a factor yes, but not all of it.yea we love the europeans but not the EU , come the 23rd we will be out, if were still in,, cam-moron will have fixed the vote and there will be uproar.. "

Too really haven't been paying attention to the whole campaign have you.. The vote is only about British opinion..on the 24 th whatever the vote we will still be an EU member and will be for years to come untill an exit deal is done ..could be a norway/ Switzerland type deal where we pay in accept free movement of people accept EU laws without any say in them .. for free trade within the EU ..

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By *inky-MinxWoman
over a year ago

Grantham

"I'm aware of how the EU works - it's far from perfect and needs reform. I don't believe it is inherently a corrupt institution, and could equally identify your arguments as shallow but have no need

Not sure how but saying everyone who wants to leave has that opinion because of immigration is what I objected to. Not everyone is that shallow - to only want to leave over immigration.

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By *iedcoupleCouple
over a year ago

York

"Say yay if u love the Europeans

I love Europeans but Europe and the EU are 2 different things entirely.

Europe is a geographical location.

The EU is a corrupt, undemocratic, bureaucratic, political, wannabe Superstate. "

Well said that man

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By *inky-MinxWoman
over a year ago

Grantham

"Say yay if u love the Europeans

I love Europeans but Europe and the EU are 2 different things entirely.

Europe is a geographical location.

The EU is a corrupt, undemocratic, bureaucratic, political, wannabe Superstate.

Well said that man

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I'm aware of how the EU works - it's far from perfect and needs reform. I don't believe it is inherently a corrupt institution, and could equally identify your arguments as shallow but have no need

Not sure how but saying everyone who wants to leave has that opinion because of immigration is what I objected to. Not everyone is that shallow - to only want to leave over immigration."

Ms Minx - I do not think that everyone has that opinion at all, and you have never come across that way.

I object to much of the leave campaign's tone, but that does not equate to tarring everyone who votes leave with the same brush

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By *nleashedCrakenMan
over a year ago

Widnes

"Yay

I spend half my life in Spain and will retire there to live among my Spanish friends.

EU? nay

OUT

utter nonsense. When was the last time you spoke to your abogado?"

I don't need to thanks.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

The biggest con job in British history, and everyone has fallen for it.

If we vote in dodgy Dave counts it for a victory for the Conservative government, if we vote out, bojo counts it for a win for the conservative party, ukip, labor and lib dem all fell for it too, its all bollocks, it doesn't matter if we vote in or out, the country is still going to be fubar in a years time

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

United we're stronger.

I'm voting IN.

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By *rightonsteveMan
over a year ago

Brighton - even Hove!

I'm undecided. I see pros and cons for both sides. What I don't like is exaggerated or inaccurate numbers, scare tactics and being patronised from either side.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Listening to the radio this morning and they are saying that cities that receive EU funding for things may fall by the wayside.

Was thinking where does the EU funding come from ? And how much does the UK get in £'s sterling from the EU for this funding ? Anyone have any figure on this ?

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By *arry247Couple
over a year ago

Wakefield

But isn't immigration the main card of the BREXIT camp? It strikes of a self superiority complex to me...in in the long term these complexes only create problems :-0"

No controlled immigration is.

Being able to recruit workers from other conuntries in the world rather than having to accept workers from the 28 EU countries even though they do not have the same skills as those from outside the EU.

Those who are voting leave want to trade with the whole world not restrict the UK to the 28 EU countries.

Remaining in the EU is isolationalist.

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By *horehouseCouple
over a year ago

dissatisfied

But isn't immigration the main card of the BREXIT camp? It strikes of a self superiority complex to me...in in the long term these complexes only create problems :-0

No controlled immigration is.

Those who are voting leave want to trade with the whole world not restrict the UK to the 28 EU countries.

Remaining in the EU is isolationalist."

We already trade with the rest if the world its a brexit myth that we don't here is the china UK trade deal signed in 2014 a 14 billion pound deal ...

http://www.bbc.com/news/business-27882954

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By *enard ArgenteMan
over a year ago

London and France

But isn't immigration the main card of the BREXIT camp? It strikes of a self superiority complex to me...in in the long term these complexes only create problems :-0

No controlled immigration is.

Those who are voting leave want to trade with the whole world not restrict the UK to the 28 EU countries.

Remaining in the EU is isolationalist."

Why do you persist in this myth that you cannot recruit workers from non -EU countries?

It's simply untrue .

You can recruit workers from anywhere.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

But isn't immigration the main card of the BREXIT camp? It strikes of a self superiority complex to me...in in the long term these complexes only create problems :-0

No controlled immigration is.

Those who are voting leave want to trade with the whole world not restrict the UK to the 28 EU countries.

Remaining in the EU is isolationalist.

Why do you persist in this myth that you cannot recruit workers from non -EU countries?

It's simply untrue .

You can recruit workers from anywhere.

ofcourse we can; and we do recruit workers from non EU countries, but immigration still has to be controlled, and due to the huge amount coming in from the EU without control of skills, crime, disease, and most important no proper health insurance it effects the numbers we can let in from outside the EU, the ones we need with required skills, ones who have had medicals to prove they are not bringing in TB and other infectious diseases, ones who have went down the correct route and obtained correct health insurance.

There is only so many we can allow in each year which everyone should agree with

surely if we had a system in place where we can check and ensure the correct skills, age, health, medical insurance, crime checks and correct paperwork is in place then it would benefit us all, rather than a simple free for all from EU

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Yay

I spend half my life in Spain and will retire there to live among my Spanish friends.

EU? nay

OUT

utter nonsense. When was the last time you spoke to your abogado?

I don't need to thanks.

because you know more? Fair enough

drain on public services? Get real, health care costs for those not paying into the Spanish system are covered by the NHS, why would that change when it works both ways? An agreement would be reached. And do you not appreciate that retired expats are a benefit to the Spanish economy? Why would they want to damage that?

And do you not realise that of all foriegn property purchases in Spain it is the Russians who buy the most after the Brits and French and that is rising? Now the last time I looked Russia wasn't in the EU so what are the Spanish doing to deter them from buying and living there? And why would the Russians consider it an attractive proposition even though they are not in the EU?

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By *horehouseCouple
over a year ago

dissatisfied

"Yay

I spend half my life in Spain and will retire there to live among my Spanish friends.

EU? nay

OUT

utter nonsense. When was the last time you spoke to your abogado?

I don't need to thanks.

because you know more? Fair enough

Best check facts only health care covered by the nhs here is for retirees' and the UK government has said after brexit vote that may stop private health care is expensive the older you get and will not cover pre existing conditions ..property in our area is being bought by the Italians who can retire here ..small amount of Russians for holiday homes as there are virtually no full time Russian residents living here why because there not in the EU ..and have to meet entry req for moving ..the system at the moment allows the less fortunate UK residents to move here and build a new life not just the privileged also after a brexit vote the UK government has said inflation linked state pensions may be fixed at one level .. UK immigrants are the same use in Spain as EU immigrants are to the uk ..probably the uk government will put as many stumbling blocks in the way for moving to the EU as the EU will ...

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Yay

I spend half my life in Spain and will retire there to live among my Spanish friends.

EU? nay

OUT

utter nonsense. When was the last time you spoke to your abogado?

I don't need to thanks.

because you know more? Fair enough

I have checked the facts thanks. And you are just talking about there. On the Costas pretty much every estate agent employs a Russian speaker or Russian national. And aren't you defeating your own argument? Why would the UK government want to make it difficult for people to leave the UK to retire if as claimed by yourself and others that they are a drain on resources?

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By *eteinhantsMan
over a year ago

Southsea

"Yay

I spend half my life in Spain and will retire there to live among my Spanish friends.

EU? nay

OUT

utter nonsense. When was the last time you spoke to your abogado?

I don't need to thanks.

because you know more? Fair enough

Russians dont care where they buy property so long as its out of Russia, its a convienent way of getting money out of the country

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Yay

I spend half my life in Spain and will retire there to live among my Spanish friends.

EU? nay

OUT

utter nonsense. When was the last time you spoke to your abogado?

I don't need to thanks.

because you know more? Fair enough

Russians dont care where they buy property so long as its out of Russia, its a convienent way of getting money out of the country

really? How does that work when a lot have taken out loans to buy them? We are not talking about rich Russians here

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By *horehouseCouple
over a year ago

dissatisfied

"Yay

I spend half my life in Spain and will retire there to live among my Spanish friends.

EU? nay

OUT

utter nonsense. When was the last time you spoke to your abogado?

I don't need to thanks.

because you know more? Fair enough

Russians dont care where they buy property so long as its out of Russia, its a convienent way of getting money out of the country

really? How does that work when a lot have taken out loans to buy them? We are not talking about rich Russians here"

You are talking about the rich Russians who also buy property in the UK for residential purposes the UK they buy to reside and get there children educated .spain and France they buy for holiday homes and yes they are wealthy Russians not your average working class person ....

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Yay

I spend half my life in Spain and will retire there to live among my Spanish friends.

EU? nay

OUT

utter nonsense. When was the last time you spoke to your abogado?

I don't need to thanks.

because you know more? Fair enough

Russians dont care where they buy property so long as its out of Russia, its a convienent way of getting money out of the country

really? How does that work when a lot have taken out loans to buy them? We are not talking about rich Russians here

no they are not. Do some research

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By *horehouseCouple
over a year ago

dissatisfied

"Yay

I spend half my life in Spain and will retire there to live among my Spanish friends.

EU? nay

OUT

utter nonsense. When was the last time you spoke to your abogado?

I don't need to thanks.

because you know more? Fair enough

Russians dont care where they buy property so long as its out of Russia, its a convienent way of getting money out of the country

really? How does that work when a lot have taken out loans to buy them? We are not talking about rich Russians here

no they are not. Do some research"

I did and they are..they are not your average Joe soap working person Russians .....

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Yay

I spend half my life in Spain and will retire there to live among my Spanish friends.

EU? nay

OUT

utter nonsense. When was the last time you spoke to your abogado?

I don't need to thanks.

because you know more? Fair enough

Russians dont care where they buy property so long as its out of Russia, its a convienent way of getting money out of the country

really? How does that work when a lot have taken out loans to buy them? We are not talking about rich Russians here

no they are not. Do some research

I did and they are..they are not your average Joe soap working person Russians ....."

so what is the number of Russians who bought property in EU countries in say, the last 5 years?

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By *horehouseCouple
over a year ago

dissatisfied

"Yay

I spend half my life in Spain and will retire there to live among my Spanish friends.

EU? nay

OUT

utter nonsense. When was the last time you spoke to your abogado?

I don't need to thanks.

because you know more? Fair enough

Russians dont care where they buy property so long as its out of Russia, its a convienent way of getting money out of the country

really? How does that work when a lot have taken out loans to buy them? We are not talking about rich Russians here

no they are not. Do some research

I did and they are..they are not your average Joe soap working person Russians .....

so what is the number of Russians who bought property in EU countries in say, the last 5 years?"

Top of the list was the UK..then France and France ..

The reasons they give are UK for living and getting there children educated France and Spain for holiday property's..... And the canaries its the Italians buying more property followed by the british and southern Irish ....

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Yay

I spend half my life in Spain and will retire there to live among my Spanish friends.

EU? nay

OUT

utter nonsense. When was the last time you spoke to your abogado?

I don't need to thanks.

because you know more? Fair enough

Russians dont care where they buy property so long as its out of Russia, its a convienent way of getting money out of the country

really? How does that work when a lot have taken out loans to buy them? We are not talking about rich Russians here

no they are not. Do some research

I did and they are..they are not your average Joe soap working person Russians .....

so what is the number of Russians who bought property in EU countries in say, the last 5 years?

Top of the list was the UK..then France and France ..

thought you wouldn't answer properly

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By *horehouseCouple
over a year ago

dissatisfied

"Yay

I spend half my life in Spain and will retire there to live among my Spanish friends.

EU? nay

OUT

utter nonsense. When was the last time you spoke to your abogado?

I don't need to thanks.

because you know more? Fair enough

Russians dont care where they buy property so long as its out of Russia, its a convienent way of getting money out of the country

really? How does that work when a lot have taken out loans to buy them? We are not talking about rich Russians here

no they are not. Do some research

I did and they are..they are not your average Joe soap working person Russians .....

so what is the number of Russians who bought property in EU countries in say, the last 5 years?

Top of the list was the UK..then France and France ..

thought you wouldn't answer properly

You know full well the lists are given by countries and not by exact numbers for individual countries .

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By *nleashedCrakenMan
over a year ago

Widnes

But isn't immigration the main card of the BREXIT camp? It strikes of a self superiority complex to me...in in the long term these complexes only create problems :-0

No controlled immigration is.

Those who are voting leave want to trade with the whole world not restrict the UK to the 28 EU countries.

Remaining in the EU is isolationalist."

It's 27 countries, unless you're also going to stop British people from returning from living and working in the EU (and that could be as high as 50& of net EU migration); or even 26 unless you're also going to stop Irish nationals who have the right to live and work in the UK under legislation that's been in force since 1922 (that's another 25% of EU migrants) or even 25 then 24 unless you're also going stop Maltese and Cypriot citizens who have additional rights of entry as Commonwealth citizens. That accounts for over 75% of EU migration that leaving or staying in the EU will have absolutely no effect on what so ever. And don't forget that all EU migration makes up less than 50% of total migration. Leaving the EU will give us additional control of about 10% of total migration, and we won't be able to stop all of those in or out. This whole thing about controlling immigration is just another lie from BREXIT which will make little or no difference to the actual number of migrants coming from either the EU or the rest of the world.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I'm still in the undecided category, but as a family member of mine said, they have some their vote via postal entry, and applied for citizenship in the country they live in just in case. I will read the literature and decide. I'm eligble to vote but not all from the UK by nationality (British passport holder though) so am thinking long and hard what to do.

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By *nleashedCrakenMan
over a year ago

Widnes

But isn't immigration the main card of the BREXIT camp? It strikes of a self superiority complex to me...in in the long term these complexes only create problems :-0

No controlled immigration is.

Those who are voting leave want to trade with the whole world not restrict the UK to the 28 EU countries.

Remaining in the EU is isolationalist.

Why do you persist in this myth that you cannot recruit workers from non -EU countries?

It's simply untrue .

You can recruit workers from anywhere.

This is just all completely untrue. Under EU free movement rules we can already turn back people, except British citizens, who have a serious criminal record, who pose a serious threat to our national security, who do not have adequate health provisions to cover any preexisting condition and any likely treatment during their stay here, any one who cannot show they have the means to support themselves for the duration of their stay.

There is only so many we can allow in each year which everyone should agree with

You mean the 10% of migrants who aren't from outside the EU, aren't British, Irish, Maltese or Cypriot citizens who will all still be allowed to enter and leave the UK pretty much as they are now whether we leave the EU or not. That's really going solve the so called immigration problem.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I couldn't care less tbh !

All I care about is in and out, in and out

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By *nleashedCrakenMan
over a year ago

Widnes

"Yay

I spend half my life in Spain and will retire there to live among my Spanish friends.

EU? nay

OUT

utter nonsense. When was the last time you spoke to your abogado?

I don't need to thanks.

because you know more? Fair enough

"
All migrants are usually a benefit to the economy of their host country and EU migrants are statistically more of a benefit to the British economy than most. Unfortunately that doesn't stop people believing that they are a drain on society. I know that British immigrants to Spain are a benefit to the Spanish economy, just as EU migrants to Britain are also a benefit to our economy. Problem is people like you seem to think they are a big problem. Why do you think that there aren't Spanish people who would also believe the same about British immigrants in their country?

As I've already said, it's unlikely that Spain would actually confiscate properly, however Russians do not have the right to live and work in Spain and neither will British people if we leave the EU.

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By *nleashedCrakenMan
over a year ago

Widnes

"Yay

I spend half my life in Spain and will retire there to live among my Spanish friends.

EU? nay

OUT

utter nonsense. When was the last time you spoke to your abogado?

I don't need to thanks.

because you know more? Fair enough

For the same reason that they do for British citizens that live outside the EU now who do not get their treatment paid for by the NHS and who's pensions are frozen at the amount it was when they left the UK.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Yay

I spend half my life in Spain and will retire there to live among my Spanish friends.

EU? nay

OUT

utter nonsense. When was the last time you spoke to your abogado?

I don't need to thanks.

because you know more? Fair enough

All migrants are usually a benefit to the economy of their host country and EU migrants are statistically more of a benefit to the British economy than most. Unfortunately that doesn't stop people believing that they are a drain on society. I know that British immigrants to Spain are a benefit to the Spanish economy, just as EU migrants to Britain are also a benefit to our economy. Problem is people like you seem to think they are a big problem. Why do you think that there aren't Spanish people who would also believe the same about British immigrants in their country?

As I've already said, it's unlikely that Spain would actually confiscate properly, however Russians do not have the right to live and work in Spain and neither will British people if we leave the EU."

doesn't stop them from living and working in Spain though does it

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Free the uk from the dictatorship of the EU and let's rule our selfs pick are own laws, taxes and who and how we wish to trade as a nation with the rest of the world that's what it's about, us standing as a free nation to do what's best for us and the people that live here and want to live here as a fair free society of the EU bull shit.

I'm all for being OUT OUT OUT.

P.s Europeans are sexy good people it's just the EU that's sucks ass.

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By *nleashedCrakenMan
over a year ago

Widnes

"Yay

I spend half my life in Spain and will retire there to live among my Spanish friends.

EU? nay

OUT

utter nonsense. When was the last time you spoke to your abogado?

I don't need to thanks.

because you know more? Fair enough

As I've already said, it's unlikely that Spain would actually confiscate properly, however Russians do not have the right to live and work in Spain and neither will British people if we leave the EU.

doesn't stop them from living and working in Spain though does it

I think you'll find that it does stop most Russians from living or working not only in Spain but most of the rest of the EU and those that do require residency and work permits.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"And do you not realise that of all foriegn property purchases in Spain it is the Russians who buy the most after the Brits and French and that is rising? Now the last time I looked Russia wasn't in the EU so what are the Spanish doing to deter them from buying and living there? And why would the Russians consider it an attractive proposition even though they are not in the EU?

I'm sure you full well know that the Spanish government doesn't deter Russian investors in property, it encourages them. One way they do that is by allowing non-EU citizens including Russians, to invest in property as long as they pay more than 500000 euros without a mortgage.

The Russians consider it an attractive proposition because property in Spain is relatively cheap and the climate is better than Siberia. Also many are not feeling quite as rich as they were before the ruble crashed and can't afford to buy in London any more.

Spain 'deters' people from outside the EU by setting the level of investment needed to high values and keeping all the other restrictions on entry like being able to support themselves, having health insurance etc. Plus of course, the golden visa doesn't allow Russians to work just by buying a house, does it?

What's happening in Spain is a really nice example of a country using its position in the EU to get foreign direct investment plus it does something to try to fix the property slump.

It's also a good example of how easy it is for an economy to be messed up. In the Russian case by a collapsing oil price among other things, leading to the ruble losing value. People pushing Brexit ought to look at that and realise how easy it is to damage the economy and then stop proposing to do just that.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Yay

I spend half my life in Spain and will retire there to live among my Spanish friends.

EU? nay

OUT

utter nonsense. When was the last time you spoke to your abogado?

I don't need to thanks.

because you know more? Fair enough

As I've already said, it's unlikely that Spain would actually confiscate properly, however Russians do not have the right to live and work in Spain and neither will British people if we leave the EU.

doesn't stop them from living and working in Spain though does it

I think you'll find that it does stop most Russians from living or working not only in Spain but most of the rest of the EU and those that do require residency and work permits."

so that's a no then.

what about the quarter of a million Chinese who live, work or study there?

But Brits will have problems because we leave the EU? Just more scare rubbish or ignorance on the matter.

Do you even know the requirements for a UK citizen to live and work there now?

So what is wrong with residency and work permits?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

What's happening in Spain is a really nice example of a country using its position in the EU to get foreign direct investment plus it does something to try to fix the property slump.

and that is complete rubbish

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By *arry247Couple
over a year ago

Wakefield

But isn't immigration the main card of the BREXIT camp? It strikes of a self superiority complex to me...in in the long term these complexes only create problems :-0

No controlled immigration is.

Those who are voting leave want to trade with the whole world not restrict the UK to the 28 EU countries.

Remaining in the EU is isolationalist.

Why do you persist in this myth that you cannot recruit workers from non -EU countries?

It's simply untrue .

You can recruit workers from anywhere.

Have you tried to, we have?

It can take moths to get work visas and costs thousands of pounds.

To all intents and puropses we cannot recuit workers from outside the EU as it is too expensive because EU workers can come here unimpeded.

As for trading with the whole world at present the UK has to wait for the EU to negotiate trade terms with the countries outside the EU the UK is not allowed to negotiate its own terms of trade with other countries.

This restricts trade deals being struck.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

One of the reasons I am voting Leave is to bring back the requirement for correct documents / passports / visa's for travel and work regardless of which country.

Through the years I have worked in Houston, gulf of México, Spain (Cadiz) and Singapore with absolutely no hassle apart from the mundane boring flights to get you there.

The company you work for takes care of the paperwork & does all background checks, If I had a criminal record, I simply would not be there (no if's and buts)

Immigration and free movement of people has simply gone out of control and needs to be tied back and properly controlled.

If we leave the EU we can still travel, we can still work, we just simply need to get off our backsides and ensure all required paperwork is in order.

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By *ophieslutTV/TS
over a year ago

Central

"One of the reasons I am voting Leave is to bring back the requirement for correct documents / passports / visa's for travel and work regardless of which country.

Through the years I have worked in Houston, gulf of México, Spain (Cadiz) and Singapore with absolutely no hassle apart from the mundane boring flights to get you there.

The company you work for takes care of the paperwork & does all background checks, If I had a criminal record, I simply would not be there (no if's and buts)

Immigration and free movement of people has simply gone out of control and needs to be tied back and properly controlled.

If we leave the EU we can still travel, we can still work, we just simply need to get off our backsides and ensure all required paperwork is in order."

There'll bethe same free movement of people through here and Europe for years if that's the vote result and probably continuing if we sign a deal like Norway has done with the EU.

Don't expect much if any change when flying or moving through countries for them or us.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

What's happening in Spain is a really nice example of a country using its position in the EU to get foreign direct investment plus it does something to try to fix the property slump.

and that is complete rubbish"

You haven't added anything to this debate other than insults. Why don't you tell us how the Spanish visa system works? Let's have some substance from you instead of inane comments.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

What's happening in Spain is a really nice example of a country using its position in the EU to get foreign direct investment plus it does something to try to fix the property slump.

and that is complete rubbish"

to expand on that, the golden visa is an option not a requirement and available to EU citizens as well.

So ok, putting the Russians to one side, as of 2015 there were 4.5 million foreign born residents in Spain, 4.1 million of them came from outside of the EU. All rich investors do you think?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Say yay if u love the Europeans

I love Europeans but Europe and the EU are 2 different things entirely.

Europe is a geographical location.

The EU is a corrupt, undemocratic, bureaucratic, political, wannabe Superstate. "

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"One of the reasons I am voting Leave is to bring back the requirement for correct documents / passports / visa's for travel and work regardless of which country.

Through the years I have worked in Houston, gulf of México, Spain (Cadiz) and Singapore with absolutely no hassle apart from the mundane boring flights to get you there.

The company you work for takes care of the paperwork & does all background checks, If I had a criminal record, I simply would not be there (no if's and buts)

Immigration and free movement of people has simply gone out of control and needs to be tied back and properly controlled.

If we leave the EU we can still travel, we can still work, we just simply need to get off our backsides and ensure all required paperwork is in order.

There'll bethe same free movement of people through here and Europe for years if that's the vote result and probably continuing if we sign a deal like Norway has done with the EU.

Don't expect much if any change when flying or moving through countries for them or us. "

I disagree

I do believe that MP's are starting to realise that 40 - 50% of UK citizens possibly more; are up in arms, fuming about immigration and they will have no option but to act

either that or they will be out of a job, things must change for the better and tighter regulation is required

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Do you think it'll get quicker to get visas or get any cheaper if the bureaucrats have to process them from twice as many applicants? The whole Brexit idea of control is about making it more difficult to get people in not less difficult.

There are plenty of uk companies trading around the world without waiting for new trade deals. There are also plenty taking advantage of existing trade deals negotiated by the eu and brexit will lose them that benefit.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Do you think it'll get quicker to get visas or get any cheaper if the bureaucrats have to process them from twice as many applicants? The whole Brexit idea of control is about making it more difficult to get people in not less difficult.

it it takes longer and more expense to process applicants then so be it

there is absolutely no problem flying over to USA and the way they handle visitors is no problem, we should do the same

it should not be about saving money, it should be about security & control ensuring correct paperwork is in order

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Hmmmm, put your left foot in...your right foot out...in,out..in,out...what the fucks it about? You do the oke koke and you turn around...only to find a politician stabbing you in the back!!!

I wish they would stop the political bitching and had a decent discussion on the pro's and con's of both sides... Our MP's should be ashamed on how they behave with their scare tactics!

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

[Removed by poster at 18/06/16 08:37:28]

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Hmmmm, put your left foot in...your right foot out...in,out..in,out...what the fucks it about? You do the oke koke and you turn around...only to find a politician stabbing you in the back!!!

I wish they would stop the political bitching and had a decent discussion on the pro's and con's of both sides... Our MP's should be ashamed on how they behave with their scare tactics!

True. And as the supposed leader of all the British people the Prime Minister should have remained neutral on this. As it is, he has done himself and the Leave side no favours

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

What's happening in Spain is a really nice example of a country using its position in the EU to get foreign direct investment plus it does something to try to fix the property slump.

and that is complete rubbish

to expand on that, the golden visa is an option not a requirement and available to EU citizens as well.

So ok, putting the Russians to one side, as of 2015 there were 4.5 million foreign born residents in Spain, 4.1 million of them came from outside of the EU. All rich investors do you think?"

Anyone who wants to look up the law (2014/13) can find out that: "the Golden Visa is a temporary residence permit that may be granted to individuals who are non-EU/EFTA citizens and who carry out in Spain certain types of investments, business or professional activities...".

Why would you lie about that?

Let's not put the Russians to one side, you're the one who raised them, why don't you explain how many are getting in for each type of visa? Why don't you explain the economic reasons for them going to Spain? You said my view was complete rubbish and came back with an outright lie and nothing of substance.

You've been mocking people about their views on economics why don't you come up with something that makes sense and isn't an outright untruth.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

it it takes longer and more expense to process applicants then so be it

there is absolutely no problem flying over to USA and the way they handle visitors is no problem, we should do the same

it should not be about saving money, it should be about security & control ensuring correct paperwork is in order"

Then tell people that brexit is about more bureaucracy across the piece not less. It's about more faceless bureaucrats not fewer. Tell them that brexit is about restricting trade not making it freer. Above all, the guy who thinks brexit will make it easier to get non Eu workers in that he's wrong.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Jeeeesus!!! In/out....left/right....up/down....what a nice problem to have. I'm sure the poor bastards in the world who get the shit bombed out of them day in day out wouldn't mind this issue...

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Jeeeesus!!! In/out....left/right....up/down....what a nice problem to have. I'm sure the poor bastards in the world who get the shit bombed out of them day in day out wouldn't mind this issue...

God I am good! I'm going to run for world leader!!!

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By *nleashedCrakenMan
over a year ago

Widnes

What's happening in Spain is a really nice example of a country using its position in the EU to get foreign direct investment plus it does something to try to fix the property slump.

and that is complete rubbish

to expand on that, the golden visa is an option not a requirement and available to EU citizens as well.

So ok, putting the Russians to one side, as of 2015 there were 4.5 million foreign born residents in Spain, 4.1 million of them came from outside of the EU. All rich investors do you think?"

We can all google but, if we want to inform, rather than mislead, we give the full information we find, not just what suits us. This is a full quote of the misquoted paragraph from above

As of 2015, there were over 4.5 million foreign-born residents in Spain, corresponding to 10% of the total population. Of these, 4.1 million (8.9% of the total population) were born outside the European Union and 2.3 million (5.1%) were born in another EU Member State.

And, yes, I know 2.3 + 4.1 comes to more than 4.5 but I didn't write it I just quoted it accurately.

The reality is is that while Spain and the UK remain in the EU it is easy for British people to live, work and retire in Spain. If either or both left it wouldn't be.

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By *nleashedCrakenMan
over a year ago

Widnes

"One of the reasons I am voting Leave is to bring back the requirement for correct documents / passports / visa's for travel and work regardless of which country.

Through the years I have worked in Houston, gulf of México, Spain (Cadiz) and Singapore with absolutely no hassle apart from the mundane boring flights to get you there.

The company you work for takes care of the paperwork & does all background checks, If I had a criminal record, I simply would not be there (no if's and buts)

Immigration and free movement of people has simply gone out of control and needs to be tied back and properly controlled.

If we leave the EU we can still travel, we can still work, we just simply need to get off our backsides and ensure all required paperwork is in order.

There'll bethe same free movement of people through here and Europe for years if that's the vote result and probably continuing if we sign a deal like Norway has done with the EU.

Don't expect much if any change when flying or moving through countries for them or us.

I disagree

I do believe that MP's are starting to realise that 40 - 50% of UK citizens possibly more; are up in arms, fuming about immigration and they will have no option but to act

either that or they will be out of a job, things must change for the better and tighter regulation is required"

But how is leaving the EU going to help resolve that when the real number of net migrants from the EU, who aren't either UK nationals returning; or Irish citizens, who will still have free entry as they have since 1922, is about 40,000 or 12% of total net migration into the UK.

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By *ethnmelvCouple
over a year ago

Cardiff

Shares in UK firms in the FTSE 100 rocketed by a fifth after the UK left the European Exchange Rate Mechanism in 1992.

I'm afraid it does not make me happy to see our neighbours and partners worse of by our actions. By this I mean if this scenario occurs we do well and Europe suffers!? Nor do I like the much more likely scenario of us doing badly and Europe suffering as well.

If we do vote BREXIT, which I sincerely hope that we don't, then I would like a general election called to make sure that we can vote in a government with a mandate to negotiate on all our behalves.

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By *otlovefun42Couple
over a year ago

Costa Blanca Spain...

I will leave it to the editorial in the current edition of the Spectator.The oldest continually published magazine in the English language.

Well worth sharing to a larger audience.

"The Spectator has a long record of being isolated, but right. We argued for the decriminalisation of homosexuality a decade before it happened and were denounced as the ‘bugger’s bugle’ for our troubles.

We alone supported Margaret Thatcher when she first stood for the Tory leadership.

And when Britain last held a referendum on Europe, every newspaper in the land advocated a ‘Yes’ vote. Only two national titles backed what is now called Brexit: the Morning Star and The Spectator.

Our concern then was simple: we did not believe that the Common Market was just about trade. We felt it would be followed by an attempted common government, which would have disastrous effects on a continent distinguished by its glorious diversity.

The whole project seemed to be a protectionist scam, an attempt to try to build a wall around the continent rather than embrace world trade.

Such European parochialism, we argued, did not suit a globally minded country such as Britain. On the week of the 1975 referendum, The Spectator’s cover line was: ‘Out — and into the world.’

We repeat that line today.

Since 1975, the EU has mutated in exactly the way we then feared and now resembles nothing so much as the Habsburg Empire in its dying days. A bloated bureaucracy that has outgrown all usefulness. A parliament that represents many nations, but with no democratic legitimacy. Countries on its periphery pitched into poverty, or agitating for secession.

The EU’s hunger for power has been matched only by its incompetence. The European Union is making the people of our continent poorer, and less free.

This goes far beyond frustration at diktats on banana curvature. The EU has started to deform our government.

Michael Gove revealed how, as a Cabinet member, he regularly finds himself having to process edicts, rules and regulations that have been framed at European level. Laws that no one in Britain had asked for, and which no one elected to the House of Commons has the power to change.

What we refer to as British government is increasingly no such thing. It involves the passing of laws written by people whom no one in Britain elected, no one can name and no one can remove.

Steve Hilton, David Cameron’s chief strategist for many years, gave an example of this institutional decay.

A few months into his job in No 10, he was dismayed to find his colleagues making slow progress because they were all bogged down by paperwork that he didn’t recognise. He asked for an audit, and was shocked by the results: only a third of what the Government was doing was related to its agenda. Just over half was processing orders from Brussels.

To him, this was more than just a headache: it was an insidious and accelerating bureaucratic takeover.

With the EU’s fundamental lack of democracy comes complacency on the part of its leaders and the corruption of those around them — which has led us to the present situation. Voters are naturally concerned about the extraordinary rise of immigration, and their governments’ inability to control it.

Free movement of people might have been a laudable goal before the turn of the century, when the current global wave of migration started. But today, with the world on the move, the system strikes a great many Europeans as madness.

The EU’s failure to handle immigration has encouraged the people-trafficking industry, a global evil that has led to almost 3,000 deaths in the Mediterranean so far this year. In theory, the EU is supposed to protect its member states by insisting refugees claim asylum in the first country they enter.

In practice, this law — the Dublin Convention — was torn up by Angela Merkel when she recklessly said that all Syrians could settle in Germany if they somehow managed to get there.

Blame lies not with the tens of thousands who subsequently arrived, but with a system hopelessly unequal to such a complex, intensifying challenge.

The Spectator was, again, alone in the British Press in opposing Britain’s entry to the Exchange Rate Mechanism from the beginning. Why, we asked, should the Bundesbank control another country’s interest rates?

When the single currency came along, the risks became greater: what if a country’s economy crashed, but it was denied the stimulus of a devaluing currency?

The answer can now be seen across Europe. Sado-austerity in Italy. Youth unemployment of around 50 per cent in Greece and Spain. The evisceration of these economies, in the name of a project supposed to bring people together, has been a tragedy. Last week, a Pew poll showed how far dismay about the EU extends across the Continent.

In Greece, 71 per cent now view the EU unfavourably; in France, it’s 61 per cent. In Britain, it was 48 per cent — about the same as Spain, Germany and the Netherlands.

This was why David Cameron had a strong case for renegotiation: the demand for change was widespread, and growing. A recent poll has suggested that Swedes will vote to leave the EU if Britain does. The absence of a deal worth the name was final proof that the EU is structurally incapable of reform.

Jean-Claude Juncker, the unelected president of the European Commission, sees intransigence as a great strength. His priority is the survival of the EU and the single currency: the welfare of Europeans and even the notion of democratic consent seem distant concerns.

When he dismisses the ever-louder voices of protest as the shriek of ‘populism’, he echoes the Bertolt Brecht poem: ‘Would it not be easier . . . to dissolve the people and elect another?’ When Britain asked for reform, he took a gamble: that we were bluffing and would not dare to leave. All this has placed the Prime Minister in an impossible position. Unable to make a positive case for staying in the EU, he instead tells us that Britain is trapped within it and that the penalties for leaving are too severe.

His scare stories, peppered with made-up statistics, have underlined the emptiness of the case for remaining. It also represents a style of politics that many find repugnant.

Warnings from the IMF, OECD and other acronyms have served only to reinforce the caricature of a globalised elite telling the governed what to think.

Talk of anyone being made ‘worse off’ by Brexit is deeply misleading. Of the many economists who have made projections for 2030, none have suggested that we’d be poorer.

The question is whether we’d be, say, 36 per cent better off or 41 per cent better off by then. Not that anyone knows, given the monstrously large margin of error in 15-year predictions.

So these studies offer no real reasons to be fearful. This is perhaps why George Osborne had to resort to concocting figures, such as his now notorious claim that households would be £4,300 worse off. If the economic case against Brexit were so strong, why would the Chancellor have to resort to fabrications?

As the world’s fifth-largest economy, Britain has a reasonable chance (to put it mildly) of being able to cut trade deals with countries keen to access our consumers.

The worst-case scenario is to use World Trade Organisation rules, tariffs of about 4 per cent. That’s a relatively small mark-up, and the effect would be more than offset by a welcome drop in the pound.

And if house prices fall, as the Chancellor predicts, so much the better. A great many would-be homeowners have been praying for just that.

There would certainly be turbulence, which would be the price of our leaving the EU. This would affect City financiers more than the skilled working class (two-thirds of whom support Brexit).

This week, we’re being invited to panic at the prospect of a falling pound. But why? A weaker currency would give our exporters the stimulus they need.

The question at this referendum is not whether Britain should co-operate with our European allies — the question is how.

Sir Richard Dearlove, former head of MI6, has explained how our intelligence alliances are bilateral. Our closest is with the ‘five eyes’ of the U.S., Australia, Canada and New Zealand. The Lancaster House treaties with France over military co-operation are another example.

Alliances work when they are between nations with a shared agenda, with the ability and (crucially) the will to act.

The EU is an alliance of the unwilling, which is why it is useless on security — as we saw with Bosnia and Libya.

Even the migrant crisis has to be handled by Nato, which has been the true guarantor of Western security.

It’s sometimes claimed that Vladimir Putin would want Britain to vote for Brexit. This is unlikely: what could suit the Kremlin more than European security being entrusted to the most dysfunctional organisation in the West?

As David Cameron rightly says, the British way is to fight, rather than quit. Given the EU has proved that it is structurally incapable of reform, we now have a choice.

Do we cave in because we’re too scared to leave? Or do we vote to retrieve our sovereignty, walk away from the whole racket and engage with the world on our own terms?

A vote to leave would represent an extraordinary vote of confidence in the project of the United Kingdom and the principle of national self-determination. It would also show reform-minded Europeans that theirs is not a lost cause. And that we stand willing to help forge a Europe based on freedom, co-operation and sovereignty.

The value of sovereignty cannot be measured by any economist’s formula.

Adam Smith, the father of economics, first observed that the prosperity of a country is decided by whether it keeps its ‘laws and institutions’ healthy. This basic insight explains why nations thrive or fail, and has been the great secret of British success: intellectual, artistic, scientific and industrial.

The principles of the Magna Carta and achievements of the Glorious Revolution led to our emergence as a world power. To pass up the chance to stop our laws being over-ridden by Luxembourg and our democracy eroded by Brussels would be a derogation of duty to this generation and the next.

No one — economist, politician or mystic — knows what tumult we can expect in the next 15 years. But we do know that, whatever happens, Britain will be better able to respond and adapt as a sovereign country living under its own laws.

The history of the past two centuries can be summed up in two words: democracy matters.

Let’s vote to defend it on June 23".

Pretty much sums it up for me.

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By *abioMan
over a year ago

Newcastle and Gateshead

see... thats interesting, because for every "spectator".... there is a "new stateman" which has come out for remain...

for the sun... which has come out for leave, there will be a mirror which will likely come out for remain...

mail, express will come out for leave...

guardian, FT, Times, and probably independent will come out for remain....

so i wouldn't take one source in isolation.....

i have decided in the wake of the murder of jo cox, and how toxic the debate had come... that i am not going to fight a corner anyone...

but what i will do for the next few days is if i see any BS coming from either side... I will call it out...

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By *otlovefun42Couple
over a year ago

Costa Blanca Spain...

"see... thats interesting, because for every "spectator".... there is a "new stateman" which has come out for remain...

for the sun... which has come out for leave, there will be a mirror which will likely come out for remain...

mail, express will come out for leave...

guardian, FT, Times, and probably independent will come out for remain....

so i wouldn't take one source in isolation.....

i have decided in the wake of the murder of jo cox, and how toxic the debate had come... that i am not going to fight a corner anyone...

but what i will do for the next few days is if i see any BS coming from either side... I will call it out..."

No-one is asking for it to be taken in isolation, but it is a fair side of the debate that deserves to be heard.

BTW. Which bit of it do you think is BS?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

In.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Out....

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By *ethnmelvCouple
over a year ago

Cardiff

"see... thats interesting, because for every "spectator".... there is a "new stateman" which has come out for remain...

for the sun... which has come out for leave, there will be a mirror which will likely come out for remain...

mail, express will come out for leave...

guardian, FT, Times, and probably independent will come out for remain....

so i wouldn't take one source in isolation.....

i have decided in the wake of the murder of jo cox, and how toxic the debate had come... that i am not going to fight a corner anyone...

but what i will do for the next few days is if i see any BS coming from either side... I will call it out...

No-one is asking for it to be taken in isolation, but it is a fair side of the debate that deserves to be heard.

BTW. Which bit of it do you think is BS?"

"Britain will be better able to respond and adapt as a sovereign country living under its own laws."

You asked for it to be called - this is not a fact, it is an opinion based upon a feeling. The last time we did it ourselves was from 1945 to 1975 when every British Government failed the country, trashed our industries and reduced living standards. Since 1975 British living standards have risen greatly, unemployment has dropped, more jobs have been created than ever before and we have a dynamic economy that over the next 25 years will continue to grow as our population grows with 'immigrants' helping us to offset the disaster of an ageing population.

Just my opinion, so I'll self call the BS

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"(m) replying

My family is Scottish, born in Yorkshire with German, Italian, Swiss relatives and family members all over the world.

Ask the man/woman off the street in Italian about the EU and a nasty reply will come your way.

My German relatives say that the EU has "smashed" their way of living and that they are poorer now then before the introduction of the Euro.

So what has the EU brought to Europe ?

Nothing much except maybe more cultural exchange but is that enough to cover the working poor in Italy, France and other countries ?

The answer is no it makes me a "Human" (Ich bin ein Mensch)...

The EU has forgotten that we are the people and the people wish something else...not more paper, not more government, not more meddling in our affairs.....

All I hear from Cameron and Co. is fear..that is not what we need... But to respect and enjoy...

Yes some would gain some would lose but the economic argument is that overall there is a massive gain.

I haven't seen any evidence....no one has. The stay campaigners will loose that's why they are promoting a fear campaign with little if any credible evidence that it will be better.

...but not the country or ordinary people.

So what are we gaining by BREXIT?"

Control and Identity....both have been eroded away by the EU control. We have an opportunity to reclaim back and renegotiate for our benefit. There is no free trade with Europe like so many keep saying....they tax us and everyone in it....so its a non argument that it's a free trade agreement

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By *otlovefun42Couple
over a year ago

Costa Blanca Spain...

"see... thats interesting, because for every "spectator".... there is a "new stateman" which has come out for remain...

for the sun... which has come out for leave, there will be a mirror which will likely come out for remain...

mail, express will come out for leave...

guardian, FT, Times, and probably independent will come out for remain....

so i wouldn't take one source in isolation.....

i have decided in the wake of the murder of jo cox, and how toxic the debate had come... that i am not going to fight a corner anyone...

but what i will do for the next few days is if i see any BS coming from either side... I will call it out...

No-one is asking for it to be taken in isolation, but it is a fair side of the debate that deserves to be heard.

BTW. Which bit of it do you think is BS?

"Britain will be better able to respond and adapt as a sovereign country living under its own laws."

Just my opinion, so I'll self call the BS

Of course it is an opinion just as the argument to the contrary is also an opinion.

Also that "every" government from 1945-1975 failed the country, and that unfettered immigration will offset an ageing population are opinions.

Calling out BS is a double edged sword.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I don't quite understand why so many people think a vote to leave means you dislike Europe and/or Europeans.

I very much like both but will be voting out.

I also love my neighbours next door but I still have a nice fence between us and we get on just fine.

I may be over simplifying things but separation and self governance etc doesn't necessarily imply a rejection or dislike of anyone else.

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By *nleashedCrakenMan
over a year ago

Widnes

"see... thats interesting, because for every "spectator".... there is a "new stateman" which has come out for remain...

for the sun... which has come out for leave, there will be a mirror which will likely come out for remain...

mail, express will come out for leave...

guardian, FT, Times, and probably independent will come out for remain....

so i wouldn't take one source in isolation.....

i have decided in the wake of the murder of jo cox, and how toxic the debate had come... that i am not going to fight a corner anyone...

but what i will do for the next few days is if i see any BS coming from either side... I will call it out...

No-one is asking for it to be taken in isolation, but it is a fair side of the debate that deserves to be heard.

BTW. Which bit of it do you think is BS?"

I don't think he was saying it was BS, only that from now on he was only going to try and point out BS.

The article itself is quite good and highlights a reasonable argument for BREXIT on the real issue at stake which is sovereignty. If BREXIT had made that argument, rather than lying about the amount we pay (£350 million a day when it's £250 gross, £150 net), claiming they can solve immigration by placing controls on 180,000 EU migrants when the actual number they could make any difference to is about 40,000 or 12% of total immigration and lying about Turkey joining the EU anytime soon if ever; we might have been able to have a reasonable discussion on the issues.

As for the article itself, whilst the argument is reasonable and well made, I simply don't agree that we would actually gain any more real control by leaving the EU and that decisions and rules will still be made outside the UK that we still have to comply with, whether by the EU or some other body, but we will have much less say in the formation of those rules than we do now. Real sovereignty is about real control of the things that effect our country. Leaving the EU will give us less control and consequently less real sovereignty.

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By *ethnmelvCouple
over a year ago

Cardiff

"see... thats interesting, because for every "spectator".... there is a "new stateman" which has come out for remain...

for the sun... which has come out for leave, there will be a mirror which will likely come out for remain...

mail, express will come out for leave...

guardian, FT, Times, and probably independent will come out for remain....

so i wouldn't take one source in isolation.....

i have decided in the wake of the murder of jo cox, and how toxic the debate had come... that i am not going to fight a corner anyone...

but what i will do for the next few days is if i see any BS coming from either side... I will call it out...

No-one is asking for it to be taken in isolation, but it is a fair side of the debate that deserves to be heard.

BTW. Which bit of it do you think is BS?

"Britain will be better able to respond and adapt as a sovereign country living under its own laws."

Just my opinion, so I'll self call the BS

Of course it is an opinion just as the argument to the contrary is also an opinion.

Also that "every" government from 1945-1975 failed the country, and that unfettered immigration will offset an ageing population are opinions.

Calling out BS is a double edged sword."

I didn't say unfettered migration. We do have controls and they do need to be used more effectively. But it is my opinion that Britain has been a better place with inward migration.

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By *ethnmelvCouple
over a year ago

Cardiff

"see... thats interesting, because for every "spectator".... there is a "new stateman" which has come out for remain...

for the sun... which has come out for leave, there will be a mirror which will likely come out for remain...

mail, express will come out for leave...

guardian, FT, Times, and probably independent will come out for remain....

so i wouldn't take one source in isolation.....

i have decided in the wake of the murder of jo cox, and how toxic the debate had come... that i am not going to fight a corner anyone...

but what i will do for the next few days is if i see any BS coming from either side... I will call it out...

No-one is asking for it to be taken in isolation, but it is a fair side of the debate that deserves to be heard.

BTW. Which bit of it do you think is BS?

"Britain will be better able to respond and adapt as a sovereign country living under its own laws."

Just my opinion, so I'll self call the BS

Of course it is an opinion just as the argument to the contrary is also an opinion.

Also that "every" government from 1945-1975 failed the country, and that unfettered immigration will offset an ageing population are opinions.

Calling out BS is a double edged sword."

& i did call it myself

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Say yay if u love the Europeans

no i don't and if I see ya on the river Thames I'll hose you down

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

" But how is leaving the EU going to help resolve that when the real number of net migrants from the EU, who aren't either UK nationals returning; or Irish citizens, who will still have free entry as they have since 1922, is about 40,000 or 12% of total net migration into the UK. "

As a 'Vote Leave' volunteer I have been respecting instructions to cease all activity especially on social media (like here) until tomorrow following the tragic death of Jo Cox. Hence why I have not been involved in any of these EU Threads. But I simply must correct this figure of 40,000 as I am sure it was a typographical error on your part.

The 'nett' immigration figure produced by the Government takes account of all the movements you described (as best it can). And that figure last year was some 180,000 from the EU.

In that fateful 'Treasury Report' immigration was forecast to be a further nett 3 million in 14 years. An average of about 220,000 per annum.

The real number that worries the British people is the number of National Insurance numbers issued to EU migrants to allow them to a) claim benefits and b) work. That number last year was 630,000. Or two Birminghams.

Irish Nationals are currently counted as EU immigrants along with Polish, German or whatever. After Brexit the previous arrangements that were in place with Ireland since 1923 will (hopefully) be reinstated.

I will now remove myself from the discussion.

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By *nleashedCrakenMan
over a year ago

Widnes

If we're going to talk about immigration then we need to know the real numbers.

Having tried to research this this is the information I have found from various sources.

Total net immigration into the UK is about 360,000 a year.

Of the total figure about 180,000 a year are EU Citizens.

Out of the total number of EU citizens many are UK nationals returning from either living or working in the EU. This number could be as high as 90,000 or 25% of total immigration.

Out of the total number of EU citizens about 40,000 are Irish nationals who, under rules that go back to 1922, would still be allowed to enter freely into the UK whether we or they remain in the EU or not.

There are also special rules of entry for Malta and Cyprus as members of the commonwealth, although now days they don't make a significant differences to the figures.

When all these groups of EU citizens migrating to the UK who would still be allowed to come here regardless of whether we are in the EU or not are taken of the 180,000 net EU migration figure you get a figure of about 40,000 or 11% of total net migration.

Even if we introduce the same or similar controls on the 40,000 EU migrants that we have for the rest of the world (which, incidentally is a British style points based system, so no need to introduce an Australian style points based system) many would still be allowed entry.

So leaving the EU could only possibly reduce net migration into the UK by an amount significantly less than 11%

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By *enard ArgenteMan
over a year ago

London and France

Here's some sense on the subject

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/jun/17/mainstream-politicians-clueless-on-how-to-deal-with-migration-debate-says-jo-coxs-husband

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By *nleashedCrakenMan
over a year ago

Widnes

The 'nett' immigration figure produced by the Government takes account of all the movements you described (as best it can). And that figure last year was some 180,000 from the EU.

In that fateful 'Treasury Report' immigration was forecast to be a further nett 3 million in 14 years. An average of about 220,000 per annum.

I will now remove myself from the discussion.

I respect your decision and so will not post directly against your post. I to reframed from commenting for 24 hours as a mark of respect for Jo Cox; however there are important points to discuss and little time left to discuss them. Maybe, rather than not discussing them we should discuss them but in a more restraint and greater respect for each other.

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By *otlovefun42Couple
over a year ago

Costa Blanca Spain...

"see... thats interesting, because for every "spectator".... there is a "new stateman" which has come out for remain...

for the sun... which has come out for leave, there will be a mirror which will likely come out for remain...

mail, express will come out for leave...

guardian, FT, Times, and probably independent will come out for remain....

so i wouldn't take one source in isolation.....

i have decided in the wake of the murder of jo cox, and how toxic the debate had come... that i am not going to fight a corner anyone...

but what i will do for the next few days is if i see any BS coming from either side... I will call it out..."

oops.

Mail on Sunday.... Remain.

Sunday Times.......Leave.

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By *inky-MinxWoman
over a year ago

Grantham

Ms Minx - I do not think that everyone has that opinion at all, and you have never come across that way. "

Forgive me but when you said "But now with this ?#?Brexit? debate my country has become an intolerant, selfish and brittle place where working class communities have been persuaded that migrants are more to blame for their problems than super rich parasites like Philip Green." As a citizen of this country I wanted to point out that not everyone in this country is intolerant etc.

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By *inky-MinxWoman
over a year ago

Grantham

That's how it came across to me

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By *rishman75Man
over a year ago

Chessington/epsom

Litunanian women are hot and I love the serbian ladies as well then slovakian ladies hmmm

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By *avidnsa69Man
over a year ago

Essex

"Yay

I spend half my life in Spain and will retire there to live among my Spanish friends.

EU? nay

I agree. Oddly, if theyre here theyre immigrants. If we go there we call ourselves expats. Hypocrisy's great isnt it?

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By *entaur_UKMan
over a year ago

Cannock

"see... thats interesting, because for every "spectator".... there is a "new stateman" which has come out for remain...

for the sun... which has come out for leave, there will be a mirror which will likely come out for remain...

mail, express will come out for leave...

guardian, FT, Times, and probably independent will come out for remain....

so i wouldn't take one source in isolation.....

i have decided in the wake of the murder of jo cox, and how toxic the debate had come... that i am not going to fight a corner anyone...

but what i will do for the next few days is if i see any BS coming from either side... I will call it out...

No-one is asking for it to be taken in isolation, but it is a fair side of the debate that deserves to be heard.

BTW. Which bit of it do you think is BS?

"Britain will be better able to respond and adapt as a sovereign country living under its own laws."

Just my opinion, so I'll self call the BS

I'll have to call you out on that one because even the Bank of England have backed up reports saying that people on average wages in the UK have 10% lower living standards and quality of life now than they were in 2008. This is in part due to mass uncontrolled immigration, massive over supply in the labour market which has driven down wages or lead to stagnation in wage levels and England being the most overcrowded, and most densely populated country in the EU.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

well said, another reason to vote Leave

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Yay

I spend half my life in Spain and will retire there to live among my Spanish friends.

EU? nay

I agree. Oddly, if theyre here theyre immigrants. If we go there we call ourselves expats. Hypocrisy's great isnt it?"

Oddly we are called immigrants in other countries and their people who leave are called expats. Odd that isn't it?....not

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By *educedWoman
over a year ago

Birmingham

In the words of E 17 I'm gonna STAY.

https://youtu.be/HlMTPQaS8L4

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Some good comments and its pleasing to read that the vast majority of comments here are intending to Vote Leave on the 23rd

continue to vote leave if you have not already done so via postal vote

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By *entaur_UKMan
over a year ago

Cannock

Yesterday Lord Guthrie who is the last chief of Defence Staff, and former Remain campaigner and supporter switched sides and he is now backing the Leave campaign. He says he will be voting Leave on Thursday because he believes the UK will be stronger, safer and more secure outside of the EU.

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06/17/field-marshal-lord-guthrie-why-i-now-back-the-leave-campaign/

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