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are many referendum voters thick or ill informed

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By *horehouse OP   Couple
over a year ago

dissatisfied

Why do many people voting in the referendum believe that after a vote to leave we will no longer be part of the EU ..on the 24th ..when in fact it could be many years after the referendum before our exit from the EU .whichever way the vote goes on the 24 th we will still be a member of the EU ..until the Tory government has negotiated otherwise .....

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By *rightonsteveMan
over a year ago

Brighton - even Hove!


"Why do many people voting in the referendum believe that after a vote to leave we will no longer be part of the EU ..on the 24th ..when in fact it could be many years after the referendum before our exit from the EU .whichever way the vote goes on the 24 th we will still be a member of the EU ..until the Tory government has negotiated otherwise ....."
.....what if they deliberately go slow on the negotiations and thus creatie a situation where we are still IN to all extents and purposes, even thought the vote was for OUT?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I'm going to be generous and say 'ill-informed', but yeah - a referendum only expresses the feelings of the people. It's up to a government to act on it (if they wish) and pass any laws / enact any processes (if they can pass them in parliament). A 'leave' vote would be just the start of a long, drawn-out process.

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By *horehouse OP   Couple
over a year ago

dissatisfied


"Why do many people voting in the referendum believe that after a vote to leave we will no longer be part of the EU ..on the 24th ..when in fact it could be many years after the referendum before our exit from the EU .whichever way the vote goes on the 24 th we will still be a member of the EU ..until the Tory government has negotiated otherwise ..........what if they deliberately go slow on the negotiations and thus creatie a situation where we are still IN to all extents and purposes, even thought the vote was for OUT? "
even the brexit campaign leader has said it will take between 2 and 8 years ro leave ..also Whitehall who will be dealing with a lot of it simply arnt capable of dealing with it at this time ..

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By *rightonsteveMan
over a year ago

Brighton - even Hove!


"Why do many people voting in the referendum believe that after a vote to leave we will no longer be part of the EU ..on the 24th ..when in fact it could be many years after the referendum before our exit from the EU .whichever way the vote goes on the 24 th we will still be a member of the EU ..until the Tory government has negotiated otherwise ..........what if they deliberately go slow on the negotiations and thus creatie a situation where we are still IN to all extents and purposes, even thought the vote was for OUT? even the brexit campaign leader has said it will take between 2 and 8 years ro leave ..also Whitehall who will be dealing with a lot of it simply arnt capable of dealing with it at this time .."

Then a trade agreement will come to fruition bang on time then! All this scaremongering about trade agreements taking years to agree - they can start it the day after the vote (if out) and be all ready to rock n roll in 2-8 years time.

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By *abioMan
over a year ago

Newcastle and Gateshead


"Why do many people voting in the referendum believe that after a vote to leave we will no longer be part of the EU ..on the 24th ..when in fact it could be many years after the referendum before our exit from the EU .whichever way the vote goes on the 24 th we will still be a member of the EU ..until the Tory government has negotiated otherwise ..........what if they deliberately go slow on the negotiations and thus creatie a situation where we are still IN to all extents and purposes, even thought the vote was for OUT? "

in theory they could.... however the question is not just how long are they going to want to drag out the process, because it wouldn't be in the other 27 countries interest.....

so that why cameron as side he will start the "2 year leave clock" as soon as.... where as leave funny enough want to go at a time that suits them....

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

They will want to draw it out for a year or two should we leave to give others the same vote we will have had.

The more disquiet the better the deal.

France and Holland are talking about a vote.

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By *VBethTV/TS
over a year ago

Chester

Pretty much everyone is ill-informed. Despite a heck of a lot of searching, I can't find a single list of pros and cons that isn't heavily weighted by the author's viewpoint. There is no way to accurately predict what will happen if we leave and equally no real knowledge of what will happen if we stay! Ergo most people are voting with their hearts or their prejudices.

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By *adyboy-DaddyCouple
over a year ago

Andover

Listened to great piece on R4 yesterday where studies showed many people do not find facts to make a decision but instead make an un-informed decision and then look for facts that back it up.

The main way you could tell if this had been the case was when the person could see only pros on one side and only cons on the other.

Someone who had studies the facts first was more likely to be able list pros and cons for both sides of an opinion.

Incredible how many "decision first, facts later" types there are ranting day and night in this forum!

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Hello Beth,

forecast the future, if only we could?

However, if we leave we should then be in a position to tell our M.P.s what we want and, hopefully, get a law passed to prevent our parliamenmt from signing away our sovereignty ever again (and lie about it at the time).

Despite all the cries of remain from some big business leaders to remain, business won't just give in if we leave they will do thier utmost to keep making a profit. That is, in part, what will make a Brexit leave.

If there are still fishermen that want to fish, perhaps we can restore that industry and if we repeal the EU prompted (but over egged by Mr Brown's government) Climate change act we can help our heavy industry in some small measure.

Before the greens start jumping up and down that act is asking the impossible and will have little effect anyway.

Alec

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Hello all,

"That is, in part, what will make a Brexit leave"

That should read:- That is, in part, what will make a Brexit work.

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By *icentiousCouple
over a year ago

Up on them there hills

My old Aunt is voting on the exit, she only knows two countries in Europe other then England, and one of them is Brussels.

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By *entaur_UKMan
over a year ago

Cannock

If it is a Leave vote on 24th June we can activate article 50 of the EU treaties. This will be official declaration that the UK is leaving the EU, and we can start our exit negotiations.

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By *eavenNhellCouple
over a year ago

carrbrook stalybridge


"If it is a Leave vote on 24th June we can activate article 50 of the EU treaties. This will be official declaration that the UK is leaving the EU, and we can start our exit negotiations. "
whois we ? the government are split right down the middle on the EU and with a majority of 22 may find it just alittle awkward to get any legislation to exit through parliament

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By *rightonsteveMan
over a year ago

Brighton - even Hove!


"If it is a Leave vote on 24th June we can activate article 50 of the EU treaties. This will be official declaration that the UK is leaving the EU, and we can start our exit negotiations. "

Whereas on Fab when someone leaves, it's all 'don't hit the door on the way out!'

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

referendum = a general vote by the electorate on a single political question which has been referred to them for a direct decision...

I am sure once the votes have been counted it will be made perfectly clear what the processes are, for one side or the other

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By *horehouse OP   Couple
over a year ago

dissatisfied


"If it is a Leave vote on 24th June we can activate article 50 of the EU treaties. This will be official declaration that the UK is leaving the EU, and we can start our exit negotiations. "
so as I said we will still be an EU member after the 24th and can reasonably expect to be so for the next few years even after invoking article 50,we will still be a member of the EU untill such time as the tory government negotiated otherwise ..unless it goes past 2020 then who knows who will do the negotiations...

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By *omersetfun15Couple
over a year ago

bridgwater


"Why do many people voting in the referendum believe that after a vote to leave we will no longer be part of the EU ..on the 24th ..when in fact it could be many years after the referendum before our exit from the EU .whichever way the vote goes on the 24 th we will still be a member of the EU ..until the Tory government has negotiated otherwise ..........what if they deliberately go slow on the negotiations and thus creatie a situation where we are still IN to all extents and purposes, even thought the vote was for OUT? "

Thats exactly what they will do

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Ill informed no ones thick

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"Why do many people voting in the referendum believe that after a vote to leave we will no longer be part of the EU ..on the 24th ..when in fact it could be many years after the referendum before our exit from the EU .whichever way the vote goes on the 24 th we will still be a member of the EU ..until the Tory government has negotiated otherwise ....."

Everyone has an opinion even you;

whether the opinion is right or wrong is a different matter and again often down to opinion

you just have to do what you feel is right for yourself & country

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"Ill informed no ones thick "
....

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

If im doubt ask Bob Geldof, he appears to be making a song & dance getting in on the act

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

If we vote out though, it'll be the first step? It will happen, in time.

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By *omersetfun15Couple
over a year ago

bridgwater


"If im doubt ask Bob Geldof, he appears to be making a song & dance getting in on the act "

He wants to be the new james bond

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By *icketysplitsWoman
over a year ago

Way over Yonder, that's where I'm bound


"I'm going to be generous and say 'ill-informed', but yeah - a referendum only expresses the feelings of the people. It's up to a government to act on it (if they wish) and pass any laws / enact any processes (if they can pass them in parliament). A 'leave' vote would be just the start of a long, drawn-out process."

The timing and pace is entirely up to the government.

I don't think they'd stretch it out too long because the Blue on Blue action (it sounds pornographic, doesn't it) is already pretty brutal. However, the same Blue on Blue may mean the start date and negotiations may take time as they start the battle for BoJo and Gove to take over from Cameron and Osborne.

IF we vote to leave, that is.

Radio 4's More or Less has been running a little series this week checking the statements made by both sides. It's worth a listen.

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By *icketysplitsWoman
over a year ago

Way over Yonder, that's where I'm bound


"Pretty much everyone is ill-informed. Despite a heck of a lot of searching, I can't find a single list of pros and cons that isn't heavily weighted by the author's viewpoint. There is no way to accurately predict what will happen if we leave and equally no real knowledge of what will happen if we stay! Ergo most people are voting with their hearts or their prejudices. "

It's the impartiality paradox. As soon as anyone uses their expertise to answer any of the queries raised they are seen as being partisan. The question is too binary for it to be otherwise.

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By *an_WoodMan
over a year ago

Stafford

You need to respect voter's choice win or lose on either side.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"You need to respect voter's choice win or lose on either side. "

I really don't think there's much chance of that either way, unfortunately - particularly if it's close.

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By *andomfodCouple
over a year ago

walsall


"Pretty much everyone is ill-informed. Despite a heck of a lot of searching, I can't find a single list of pros and cons that isn't heavily weighted by the author's viewpoint. There is no way to accurately predict what will happen if we leave and equally no real knowledge of what will happen if we stay! Ergo most people are voting with their hearts or their prejudices. "

This exactly. The amount of things that have popped up that I have seen that focus purely on scaremongering and confusion from both sides is ridiculous! Not to mention the name calling. Now it's down to pictures of who is voting what and people are choosing based on which celebrities they like! Oh well....

B

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I too far down life's highway to let any of it bother me ...

I

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By *icketysplitsWoman
over a year ago

Way over Yonder, that's where I'm bound


"I too far down life's highway to let any of it bother me ...

I "

I've asked the children what they think and how they'd like me to vote. It will affect them for longer than it will affect me.

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By *ensualtouch15Man
over a year ago

ashby de la zouch


"Listened to great piece on R4 yesterday where studies showed many people do not find facts to make a decision but instead make an un-informed decision and then look for facts that back it up.

The main way you could tell if this had been the case was when the person could see only pros on one side and only cons on the other.

Someone who had studies the facts first was more likely to be able list pros and cons for both sides of an opinion.

Incredible how many "decision first, facts later" types there are ranting day and night in this forum! "

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"I too far down life's highway to let any of it bother me ...

I

I've asked the children what they think and how they'd like me to vote. It will affect them for longer than it will affect me."

Good-on you

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By *ophieslutTV/TS
over a year ago

Central

I'm inclined to think that the referendum wasn't prepared for and managed that well. It's unrealistic to expect that most of the population can find and assimilate all pertinent facts, in order to make a cogent decision.

As a vitally important referendum the government should have prepared and informed the country first, rather than rushing to get voting done.

If we vote to leave then immigration stays exactly the same for many years. We would be foolish to rush an exit without agreeing the best terms for ourselves. Any fool could sign up to a deal that gives nothing, just to get it done quickly, making a few dummies happy.

I think it will be the better part of 10 years until it could be settled properly.

And the swivel eyed ones will still be frothing for all of that time

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

If we leave we're going to have WW3,pensioners will suffer,taxes will go up 10%,the poor will get poorer because the rich won't let themselves be poorer and we're all going to contract genital herpes...so I've heard.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Where are these facts? And what are they?

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By *ty31Man
over a year ago

NW London

Regardless of the outcome of referendums, protests, riots, demonstrations etc

governments always have a way Of getting their own way or doing what they want despite public opinion.

For many the chance to vote Leave is a protest vote against the gravy train, waste, beuracracy and unaccountablity which is they perceive is rife within EU

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By *entaur_UKMan
over a year ago

Cannock


"If we leave we're going to have WW3,pensioners will suffer,taxes will go up 10%,the poor will get poorer because the rich won't let themselves be poorer and we're all going to contract genital herpes...so I've heard. "

Donald Tusk from the EU said the other day "if Britain leaves the EU it will be the end of Western civilisation".

How he could say that with a straight face I'll never know, scaremongering rubbish of the highest order.

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By *an_WoodMan
over a year ago

Stafford


"If we leave we're going to have WW3,pensioners will suffer,taxes will go up 10%,the poor will get poorer because the rich won't let themselves be poorer and we're all going to contract genital herpes...so I've heard.

Donald Tusk from the EU said the other day "if Britain leaves the EU it will be the end of Western civilisation".

How he could say that with a straight face I'll never know, scaremongering rubbish of the highest order. "

And Nige is proposing riots if remain win

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"I'm inclined to think that the referendum wasn't prepared for and managed that well. It's unrealistic to expect that most of the population can find and assimilate all pertinent facts, in order to make a cogent decision.

As a vitally important referendum the government should have prepared and informed the country first, rather than rushing to get voting done.

If we vote to leave then immigration stays exactly the same for many years. We would be foolish to rush an exit without agreeing the best terms for ourselves. Any fool could sign up to a deal that gives nothing, just to get it done quickly, making a few dummies happy.

I think it will be the better part of 10 years until it could be settled properly.

And the swivel eyed ones will still be frothing for all of that time

"

and this just about sums up what is wrong with a lot of the people on the Remain side. Of course, you are far more intelligent and knowledgable than most of the population aren't you? I imagine you even know what is better for them than they do eh

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By *rightonsteveMan
over a year ago

Brighton - even Hove!

The English Civil War "set brother upon brother and cousin upon cousin"

We should learn from history.

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By *entaur_UKMan
over a year ago

Cannock


"The English Civil War "set brother upon brother and cousin upon cousin"

We should learn from history. "

....and people say the EU promotes peace and stability. All the EU is doing right across Europe is causing anger, division and instability.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Why do many people voting in the referendum believe that after a vote to remain that we will be able to reform the EU from within???

When they refused to give us what Cameron asked for initially when they knew a referendum was on the cards??

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By *horehouse OP   Couple
over a year ago

dissatisfied


"Why do many people voting in the referendum believe that after a vote to remain that we will be able to reform the EU from within???

When they refused to give us what Cameron asked for initially when they knew a referendum was on the cards??

"
why do people in the leave camp think the EU will give us a good upon exit if they believe we didn't get a fair deal in the last round of negotiations...negotiations are just that you give some and you get some ..what will be given for an exit deal ?

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By *horehouse OP   Couple
over a year ago

dissatisfied


"The English Civil War "set brother upon brother and cousin upon cousin"

We should learn from history.

....and people say the EU promotes peace and stability. All the EU is doing right across Europe is causing anger, division and instability. "
brother setting upon brother has been caused by the hatred seeping from the UKIP party since its launch over 10 years ago .its a divisive party picking upon minority's .....gays ....race ......get rid of UKIP and peace will return ....

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"Why do many people voting in the referendum believe that after a vote to remain that we will be able to reform the EU from within???

When they refused to give us what Cameron asked for initially when they knew a referendum was on the cards??

why do people in the leave camp think the EU will give us a good upon exit if they believe we didn't get a fair deal in the last round of negotiations...negotiations are just that you give some and you get some ..what will be given for an exit deal ?"

No answer then??

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By *horehouse OP   Couple
over a year ago

dissatisfied


"Why do many people voting in the referendum believe that after a vote to remain that we will be able to reform the EU from within???

When they refused to give us what Cameron asked for initially when they knew a referendum was on the cards??

why do people in the leave camp think the EU will give us a good upon exit if they believe we didn't get a fair deal in the last round of negotiations...negotiations are just that you give some and you get some ..what will be given for an exit deal ?

No answer then??"
take it you don't understand negotiations..its rate to get exactly what you are seeking as I said it give a little take a little ..you cannot seriously believe. We will get a better out than in to deal with EU member states?

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By *htcMan
over a year ago

MK

alot of them are thick, some people even think if you vote out they cant go on holiday anymore to spain or elsewhere in europe. thats how useless some of these people are.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"Why do many people voting in the referendum believe that after a vote to remain that we will be able to reform the EU from within???

When they refused to give us what Cameron asked for initially when they knew a referendum was on the cards??

why do people in the leave camp think the EU will give us a good upon exit if they believe we didn't get a fair deal in the last round of negotiations...negotiations are just that you give some and you get some ..what will be given for an exit deal ?

No answer then??take it you don't understand negotiations..its rate to get exactly what you are seeking as I said it give a little take a little ..you cannot seriously believe. We will get a better out than in to deal with EU member states?"

Oh I absolutely believe we will get a much better deal when we stand up for our country, don't accept the crumbs offered, vote with our feet and lead the way for other European countries to follow. Dependent on who is negotiating of course...and yes I'm very familiar with that concept.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Yup worries me to. There's people voting on the basis that they don't want to change their plugs, or don't want to drive on the other side of the road,

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"alot of them are thick, some people even think if you vote out they cant go on holiday anymore to spain or elsewhere in europe. thats how useless some of these people are. "

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By *LCCCouple
over a year ago

Cambridge

If it is a vote to leave, it will take years to sort out. It will throw up all sorts of issues that we haven't even considered yet. I don't think it will be a case of people dragging their feet, but its not like we have a "Department of Leaving the EU" so we are either going to have to hire new civil servants, or divert civil servants who are currently working in other government departments and busy running the country.

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By *icketysplitsWoman
over a year ago

Way over Yonder, that's where I'm bound


"If it is a vote to leave, it will take years to sort out. It will throw up all sorts of issues that we haven't even considered yet. I don't think it will be a case of people dragging their feet, but its not like we have a "Department of Leaving the EU" so we are either going to have to hire new civil servants, or divert civil servants who are currently working in other government departments and busy running the country."

On the other side too. This is uncharted waters for everyone.

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By *LCCCouple
over a year ago

Cambridge


"Why do many people voting in the referendum believe that after a vote to remain that we will be able to reform the EU from within???

When they refused to give us what Cameron asked for initially when they knew a referendum was on the cards??

why do people in the leave camp think the EU will give us a good upon exit if they believe we didn't get a fair deal in the last round of negotiations...negotiations are just that you give some and you get some ..what will be given for an exit deal ?

No answer then??take it you don't understand negotiations..its rate to get exactly what you are seeking as I said it give a little take a little ..you cannot seriously believe. We will get a better out than in to deal with EU member states?

Oh I absolutely believe we will get a much better deal when we stand up for our country, don't accept the crumbs offered, vote with our feet and lead the way for other European countries to follow. Dependent on who is negotiating of course...and yes I'm very familiar with that concept.

"

Can you give an example of any other club or membership organisation where you leave, stop paying to be a member, and then get a better deal than when you were a member?

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By *icketysplitsWoman
over a year ago

Way over Yonder, that's where I'm bound


"Why do many people voting in the referendum believe that after a vote to remain that we will be able to reform the EU from within???

When they refused to give us what Cameron asked for initially when they knew a referendum was on the cards??

why do people in the leave camp think the EU will give us a good upon exit if they believe we didn't get a fair deal in the last round of negotiations...negotiations are just that you give some and you get some ..what will be given for an exit deal ?

No answer then??take it you don't understand negotiations..its rate to get exactly what you are seeking as I said it give a little take a little ..you cannot seriously believe. We will get a better out than in to deal with EU member states?

Oh I absolutely believe we will get a much better deal when we stand up for our country, don't accept the crumbs offered, vote with our feet and lead the way for other European countries to follow. Dependent on who is negotiating of course...and yes I'm very familiar with that concept.

Can you give an example of any other club or membership organisation where you leave, stop paying to be a member, and then get a better deal than when you were a member? "

Or where stamping your feet and saying, I'm better than all of you so give me what I want NOW! gets you what you want?

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By *LCCCouple
over a year ago

Cambridge


"If it is a vote to leave, it will take years to sort out. It will throw up all sorts of issues that we haven't even considered yet. I don't think it will be a case of people dragging their feet, but its not like we have a "Department of Leaving the EU" so we are either going to have to hire new civil servants, or divert civil servants who are currently working in other government departments and busy running the country.

On the other side too. This is uncharted waters for everyone.

"

How do you mean on the other hand? Staying in the EU? Surely we just continue as we are?

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By *icketysplitsWoman
over a year ago

Way over Yonder, that's where I'm bound


"If it is a vote to leave, it will take years to sort out. It will throw up all sorts of issues that we haven't even considered yet. I don't think it will be a case of people dragging their feet, but its not like we have a "Department of Leaving the EU" so we are either going to have to hire new civil servants, or divert civil servants who are currently working in other government departments and busy running the country.

On the other side too. This is uncharted waters for everyone.

How do you mean on the other hand? Staying in the EU? Surely we just continue as we are? "

Not on the other hand, on the other side - the EU has the protocols but they haven't been tried and tested.

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By *LCCCouple
over a year ago

Cambridge


"If it is a vote to leave, it will take years to sort out. It will throw up all sorts of issues that we haven't even considered yet. I don't think it will be a case of people dragging their feet, but its not like we have a "Department of Leaving the EU" so we are either going to have to hire new civil servants, or divert civil servants who are currently working in other government departments and busy running the country.

On the other side too. This is uncharted waters for everyone.

How do you mean on the other hand? Staying in the EU? Surely we just continue as we are?

Not on the other hand, on the other side - the EU has the protocols but they haven't been tried and tested."

Oh I get what you mean now, but didn't Greenland leave?

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By *horehouse OP   Couple
over a year ago

dissatisfied


"Why do many people voting in the referendum believe that after a vote to remain that we will be able to reform the EU from within???

When they refused to give us what Cameron asked for initially when they knew a referendum was on the cards??

why do people in the leave camp think the EU will give us a good upon exit if they believe we didn't get a fair deal in the last round of negotiations...negotiations are just that you give some and you get some ..what will be given for an exit deal ?

No answer then??take it you don't understand negotiations..its rate to get exactly what you are seeking as I said it give a little take a little ..you cannot seriously believe. We will get a better out than in to deal with EU member states?

Oh I absolutely believe we will get a much better deal when we stand up for our country, don't accept the crumbs offered, vote with our feet and lead the way for other European countries to follow. Dependent on who is negotiating of course...and yes I'm very familiar with that concept.

Can you give an example of any other club or membership organisation where you leave, stop paying to be a member, and then get a better deal than when you were a member? "
. you got in one

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

The EU isn't a great club. It's difficult to get served, the music is mostly rubbish, the bouncers are idiots and the people who run it don't seem to care much.

But it's raining outside, and there's nobody in at home.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"Why do many people voting in the referendum believe that after a vote to remain that we will be able to reform the EU from within???

When they refused to give us what Cameron asked for initially when they knew a referendum was on the cards??

why do people in the leave camp think the EU will give us a good upon exit if they believe we didn't get a fair deal in the last round of negotiations...negotiations are just that you give some and you get some ..what will be given for an exit deal ?

No answer then??take it you don't understand negotiations..its rate to get exactly what you are seeking as I said it give a little take a little ..you cannot seriously believe. We will get a better out than in to deal with EU member states?

Oh I absolutely believe we will get a much better deal when we stand up for our country, don't accept the crumbs offered, vote with our feet and lead the way for other European countries to follow. Dependent on who is negotiating of course...and yes I'm very familiar with that concept.

Can you give an example of any other club or membership organisation where you leave, stop paying to be a member, and then get a better deal than when you were a member? "

Other countries have gained free trade deals with none of the downsides to membership of the EU.

Depends on how much the EU values our custom.....

The answer to your question is no I can't name one. But this isn't like membership of a gym or the AA so it's not really comparable.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"Why do many people voting in the referendum believe that after a vote to remain that we will be able to reform the EU from within???

When they refused to give us what Cameron asked for initially when they knew a referendum was on the cards??

why do people in the leave camp think the EU will give us a good upon exit if they believe we didn't get a fair deal in the last round of negotiations...negotiations are just that you give some and you get some ..what will be given for an exit deal ?

No answer then??take it you don't understand negotiations..its rate to get exactly what you are seeking as I said it give a little take a little ..you cannot seriously believe. We will get a better out than in to deal with EU member states?

Oh I absolutely believe we will get a much better deal when we stand up for our country, don't accept the crumbs offered, vote with our feet and lead the way for other European countries to follow. Dependent on who is negotiating of course...and yes I'm very familiar with that concept.

Can you give an example of any other club or membership organisation where you leave, stop paying to be a member, and then get a better deal than when you were a member?

Or where stamping your feet and saying, I'm better than all of you so give me what I want NOW! gets you what you want?

"

Who is stamping their feet?

Who is saying I'm better than you?

Those who want to leave are seeking a better deal than we currently have. Absolutely nothing wrong in wanting a better deal.

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By *horehouse OP   Couple
over a year ago

dissatisfied


"Why do many people voting in the referendum believe that after a vote to remain that we will be able to reform the EU from within???

When they refused to give us what Cameron asked for initially when they knew a referendum was on the cards??

why do people in the leave camp think the EU will give us a good upon exit if they believe we didn't get a fair deal in the last round of negotiations...negotiations are just that you give some and you get some ..what will be given for an exit deal ?

No answer then??take it you don't understand negotiations..its rate to get exactly what you are seeking as I said it give a little take a little ..you cannot seriously believe. We will get a better out than in to deal with EU member states?

Oh I absolutely believe we will get a much better deal when we stand up for our country, don't accept the crumbs offered, vote with our feet and lead the way for other European countries to follow. Dependent on who is negotiating of course...and yes I'm very familiar with that concept.

Can you give an example of any other club or membership organisation where you leave, stop paying to be a member, and then get a better deal than when you were a member?

Other countries have gained free trade deals with none of the downsides to membership of the EU.

Depends on how much the EU values our custom.....

The answer to your question is no I can't name one. But this isn't like membership of a gym or the AA so it's not really comparable. "

Who outside of Europe has free trade within the EU? And even the non EU European countries pay the price for free trade

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By *nleashedCrakenMan
over a year ago

Widnes


"Why do many people voting in the referendum believe that after a vote to leave we will no longer be part of the EU ..on the 24th ..when in fact it could be many years after the referendum before our exit from the EU .whichever way the vote goes on the 24 th we will still be a member of the EU ..until the Tory government has negotiated otherwise ..........what if they deliberately go slow on the negotiations and thus creatie a situation where we are still IN to all extents and purposes, even thought the vote was for OUT? even the brexit campaign leader has said it will take between 2 and 8 years ro leave ..also Whitehall who will be dealing with a lot of it simply arnt capable of dealing with it at this time ..

Then a trade agreement will come to fruition bang on time then! All this scaremongering about trade agreements taking years to agree - they can start it the day after the vote (if out) and be all ready to rock n roll in 2-8 years time. "

We have 2 years from the date we invoke article 50. If after 2 years, unless we and all the other EU countries agree, we are out. If a trade deal has not been done by then then it's trade on GATT/WTO terms; which means tariffs on UK/EU trade. That's not much time at all.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Seeking a better deal is okay...but still identifying ur differences to Europeans? If we are all the same who is making a deal with who?

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By *LCCCouple
over a year ago

Cambridge


"Why do many people voting in the referendum believe that after a vote to remain that we will be able to reform the EU from within???

When they refused to give us what Cameron asked for initially when they knew a referendum was on the cards??

why do people in the leave camp think the EU will give us a good upon exit if they believe we didn't get a fair deal in the last round of negotiations...negotiations are just that you give some and you get some ..what will be given for an exit deal ?

No answer then??take it you don't understand negotiations..its rate to get exactly what you are seeking as I said it give a little take a little ..you cannot seriously believe. We will get a better out than in to deal with EU member states?

Oh I absolutely believe we will get a much better deal when we stand up for our country, don't accept the crumbs offered, vote with our feet and lead the way for other European countries to follow. Dependent on who is negotiating of course...and yes I'm very familiar with that concept.

Can you give an example of any other club or membership organisation where you leave, stop paying to be a member, and then get a better deal than when you were a member?

Other countries have gained free trade deals with none of the downsides to membership of the EU.

Depends on how much the EU values our custom.....

The answer to your question is no I can't name one. But this isn't like membership of a gym or the AA so it's not really comparable. "

So why are any countries in the EU if they would be better off out of it?

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By *HaRiFMan
over a year ago

Beyond the shadows.

I think the problem is no one really know anything for sure. There’s disagreement even among the experts. To stay in will probably mean nothing changes for us in the short term but what happens after that? the remain side are too busy scaring us with economic doom and gloom.

We really don’t know what will happen if we leave as the leave side haven’t come up with clearly defined exit strategy. Their busy scaring us with the threat of jonnie foreigner swapping us, banging on about doing away with red tape and bureaucracy (which indecently is stuff like our worker’s rights).

Whatever happens I personally think by having this referendum we have weakened our position in Europe. If we leave we’ll be on the outside looking in and have no say in the major decisions being made in the EU and If we stay we’ve played our trump card what leverage have we left to use now when it comes to bargaining?

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By *entaur_UKMan
over a year ago

Cannock


"Why do many people voting in the referendum believe that after a vote to remain that we will be able to reform the EU from within???

When they refused to give us what Cameron asked for initially when they knew a referendum was on the cards??

why do people in the leave camp think the EU will give us a good upon exit if they believe we didn't get a fair deal in the last round of negotiations...negotiations are just that you give some and you get some ..what will be given for an exit deal ?

No answer then??take it you don't understand negotiations..its rate to get exactly what you are seeking as I said it give a little take a little ..you cannot seriously believe. We will get a better out than in to deal with EU member states?

Oh I absolutely believe we will get a much better deal when we stand up for our country, don't accept the crumbs offered, vote with our feet and lead the way for other European countries to follow. Dependent on who is negotiating of course...and yes I'm very familiar with that concept.

Can you give an example of any other club or membership organisation where you leave, stop paying to be a member, and then get a better deal than when you were a member?

Or where stamping your feet and saying, I'm better than all of you so give me what I want NOW! gets you what you want?

"

Are you talking about George Osborne? Looks like he committed political and career suicide today.

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By *horehouse OP   Couple
over a year ago

dissatisfied


"Why do many people voting in the referendum believe that after a vote to remain that we will be able to reform the EU from within???

When they refused to give us what Cameron asked for initially when they knew a referendum was on the cards??

why do people in the leave camp think the EU will give us a good upon exit if they believe we didn't get a fair deal in the last round of negotiations...negotiations are just that you give some and you get some ..what will be given for an exit deal ?

No answer then??take it you don't understand negotiations..its rate to get exactly what you are seeking as I said it give a little take a little ..you cannot seriously believe. We will get a better out than in to deal with EU member states?

Oh I absolutely believe we will get a much better deal when we stand up for our country, don't accept the crumbs offered, vote with our feet and lead the way for other European countries to follow. Dependent on who is negotiating of course...and yes I'm very familiar with that concept.

Can you give an example of any other club or membership organisation where you leave, stop paying to be a member, and then get a better deal than when you were a member?

Or where stamping your feet and saying, I'm better than all of you so give me what I want NOW! gets you what you want?

Are you talking about George Osborne? Looks like he committed political and career suicide today. "

Why because you don't like his honesty ..i know coming from the brexit camp honesty is hard for you to understand ...

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By *ngel n tedCouple
over a year ago

maidstone


"Why do many people voting in the referendum believe that after a vote to remain that we will be able to reform the EU from within???

When they refused to give us what Cameron asked for initially when they knew a referendum was on the cards??

why do people in the leave camp think the EU will give us a good upon exit if they believe we didn't get a fair deal in the last round of negotiations...negotiations are just that you give some and you get some ..what will be given for an exit deal ?

No answer then??take it you don't understand negotiations..its rate to get exactly what you are seeking as I said it give a little take a little ..you cannot seriously believe. We will get a better out than in to deal with EU member states?

Oh I absolutely believe we will get a much better deal when we stand up for our country, don't accept the crumbs offered, vote with our feet and lead the way for other European countries to follow. Dependent on who is negotiating of course...and yes I'm very familiar with that concept.

Can you give an example of any other club or membership organisation where you leave, stop paying to be a member, and then get a better deal than when you were a member?

Or where stamping your feet and saying, I'm better than all of you so give me what I want NOW! gets you what you want?

Are you talking about George Osborne? Looks like he committed political and career suicide today.

Why because you don't like his honesty ..i know coming from the brexit camp honesty is hard for you to understand ..."

What a laughable statement, so remain hasn't been flashing billy bullshit at anytime, also polititians and honesty in the same breath......fuckin please

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By *inky-MinxWoman
over a year ago

Grantham


"Then a trade agreement will come to fruition bang on time then! All this scaremongering about trade agreements taking years to agree - they can start it the day after the vote (if out) and be all ready to rock n roll in 2-8 years time. "

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By *inky-MinxWoman
over a year ago

Grantham


"I think the problem is no one really know anything for sure. There’s disagreement even among the experts. To stay in will probably mean nothing changes for us in the short term but what happens after that? the remain side are too busy scaring us with economic doom and gloom.

We really don’t know what will happen if we leave as the leave side haven’t come up with clearly defined exit strategy. Their busy scaring us with the threat of jonnie foreigner swapping us, banging on about doing away with red tape and bureaucracy (which indecently is stuff like our worker’s rights).

Whatever happens I personally think by having this referendum we have weakened our position in Europe. If we leave we’ll be on the outside looking in and have no say in the major decisions being made in the EU and If we stay we’ve played our trump card what leverage have we left to use now when it comes to bargaining?

"

If we leave, others will follow.

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By *horehouse OP   Couple
over a year ago

dissatisfied


"I think the problem is no one really know anything for sure. There’s disagreement even among the experts. To stay in will probably mean nothing changes for us in the short term but what happens after that? the remain side are too busy scaring us with economic doom and gloom.

We really don’t know what will happen if we leave as the leave side haven’t come up with clearly defined exit strategy. Their busy scaring us with the threat of jonnie foreigner swapping us, banging on about doing away with red tape and bureaucracy (which indecently is stuff like our worker’s rights).

Whatever happens I personally think by having this referendum we have weakened our position in Europe. If we leave we’ll be on the outside looking in and have no say in the major decisions being made in the EU and If we stay we’ve played our trump card what leverage have we left to use now when it comes to bargaining?

If we leave, others will follow."
no way other nations will se how bad deal we end up with .out of 27 other nations in the EU only a couple are disgruntled and they will wait and see what happens to the UK

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By *horehouse OP   Couple
over a year ago

dissatisfied


"Why do many people voting in the referendum believe that after a vote to remain that we will be able to reform the EU from within???

When they refused to give us what Cameron asked for initially when they knew a referendum was on the cards??

why do people in the leave camp think the EU will give us a good upon exit if they believe we didn't get a fair deal in the last round of negotiations...negotiations are just that you give some and you get some ..what will be given for an exit deal ?

No answer then??take it you don't understand negotiations..its rate to get exactly what you are seeking as I said it give a little take a little ..you cannot seriously believe. We will get a better out than in to deal with EU member states?

Oh I absolutely believe we will get a much better deal when we stand up for our country, don't accept the crumbs offered, vote with our feet and lead the way for other European countries to follow. Dependent on who is negotiating of course...and yes I'm very familiar with that concept.

Can you give an example of any other club or membership organisation where you leave, stop paying to be a member, and then get a better deal than when you were a member?

Or where stamping your feet and saying, I'm better than all of you so give me what I want NOW! gets you what you want?

Are you talking about George Osborne? Looks like he committed political and career suicide today.

Why because you don't like his honesty ..i know coming from the brexit camp honesty is hard for you to understand ...

What a laughable statement, so remain hasn't been flashing billy bullshit at anytime, also polititians and honesty in the same breath......fuckin please "

Ah another gullible one ..the brexit campaign has been built on bullshit if you are that naïve you believe bojo and farage two of the biggest buffoons in British politics today..you sure you will be able to find you way alone to the poling station ..

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By *ngel n tedCouple
over a year ago

maidstone


"Why do many people voting in the referendum believe that after a vote to remain that we will be able to reform the EU from within???

When they refused to give us what Cameron asked for initially when they knew a referendum was on the cards??

why do people in the leave camp think the EU will give us a good upon exit if they believe we didn't get a fair deal in the last round of negotiations...negotiations are just that you give some and you get some ..what will be given for an exit deal ?

No answer then??take it you don't understand negotiations..its rate to get exactly what you are seeking as I said it give a little take a little ..you cannot seriously believe. We will get a better out than in to deal with EU member states?

Oh I absolutely believe we will get a much better deal when we stand up for our country, don't accept the crumbs offered, vote with our feet and lead the way for other European countries to follow. Dependent on who is negotiating of course...and yes I'm very familiar with that concept.

Can you give an example of any other club or membership organisation where you leave, stop paying to be a member, and then get a better deal than when you were a member?

Or where stamping your feet and saying, I'm better than all of you so give me what I want NOW! gets you what you want?

Are you talking about George Osborne? Looks like he committed political and career suicide today.

Why because you don't like his honesty ..i know coming from the brexit camp honesty is hard for you to understand ...

What a laughable statement, so remain hasn't been flashing billy bullshit at anytime, also polititians and honesty in the same breath......fuckin please

Ah another gullible one ..the brexit campaign has been built on bullshit if you are that naïve you believe bojo and farage two of the biggest buffoons in British politics today..you sure you will be able to find you way alone to the poling station .."

Ah so i'm gullible as well as fick and ill imformed, do i also read the daily mail, i'll be sure to take a copy with me when i mull over my decision in the booth

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By *icketysplitsWoman
over a year ago

Way over Yonder, that's where I'm bound

I've just been made aware that many going to Glastonbury will be absent and so won't vote.

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By *horehouse OP   Couple
over a year ago

dissatisfied


"Why do many people voting in the referendum believe that after a vote to remain that we will be able to reform the EU from within???

When they refused to give us what Cameron asked for initially when they knew a referendum was on the cards??

why do people in the leave camp think the EU will give us a good upon exit if they believe we didn't get a fair deal in the last round of negotiations...negotiations are just that you give some and you get some ..what will be given for an exit deal ?

No answer then??take it you don't understand negotiations..its rate to get exactly what you are seeking as I said it give a little take a little ..you cannot seriously believe. We will get a better out than in to deal with EU member states?

Oh I absolutely believe we will get a much better deal when we stand up for our country, don't accept the crumbs offered, vote with our feet and lead the way for other European countries to follow. Dependent on who is negotiating of course...and yes I'm very familiar with that concept.

Can you give an example of any other club or membership organisation where you leave, stop paying to be a member, and then get a better deal than when you were a member?

Or where stamping your feet and saying, I'm better than all of you so give me what I want NOW! gets you what you want?

Are you talking about George Osborne? Looks like he committed political and career suicide today.

Why because you don't like his honesty ..i know coming from the brexit camp honesty is hard for you to understand ...

What a laughable statement, so remain hasn't been flashing billy bullshit at anytime, also polititians and honesty in the same breath......fuckin please

Ah another gullible one ..the brexit campaign has been built on bullshit if you are that naïve you believe bojo and farage two of the biggest buffoons in British politics today..you sure you will be able to find you way alone to the poling station ..

Ah so i'm gullible as well as fick and ill imformed, do i also read the daily mail, i'll be sure to take a copy with me when i mull over my decision in the booth "

Make sure you've got you're twat nav before leaving home ..and take a copy of the beano it will be.moreinformative .

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By *HaRiFMan
over a year ago

Beyond the shadows.


"

Are you talking about George Osborne? Looks like he committed political and career suicide today. "

Listening to the news toady. I was thinking that Boris isn't as stupid as he looks. He's made a good strategic move in backing the leave campaign. Osborne's going to be hated and Boris is going to end up party leader, when the time comes.

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By *horehouse OP   Couple
over a year ago

dissatisfied


"

Are you talking about George Osborne? Looks like he committed political and career suicide today.

Listening to the news toady. I was thinking that Boris isn't as stupid as he looks. He's made a good strategic move in backing the leave campaign. Osborne's going to be hated and Boris is going to end up party leader, when the time comes.

"

No way bojo will be seen as the man who killed the golden boy of the tory party ..think the tories may have learned dont get rid of your party leader mid term..its political suicide only got to look at major and brown to learn it doesn't work ..

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By *HaRiFMan
over a year ago

Beyond the shadows.


"

Are you talking about George Osborne? Looks like he committed political and career suicide today.

Listening to the news toady. I was thinking that Boris isn't as stupid as he looks. He's made a good strategic move in backing the leave campaign. Osborne's going to be hated and Boris is going to end up party leader, when the time comes.

No way bojo will be seen as the man who killed the golden boy of the tory party ..think the tories may have learned dont get rid of your party leader mid term..its political suicide only got to look at major and brown to learn it doesn't work .."

Yes but Cameron's not going for a 3rd term. Leaves the door open for Boris, the leave Tories are not coming across as forgiving as the remain Tories at the moment.

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By *oo hotCouple
over a year ago

North West

Brexit.... "We have the 5th largest economy in the world" followed closely by " The UK is on its knees, we can't afford to be paying £350 million a week to the EU."

So which is it to be?...

The immigration argument. "Fuck off, we are full" ..... But we are not making an immigration vote are we? We are voting whether or not to stay in a European community where somewhere between 2,000,000 and 2,500,000 Brits have made their home and conveniently (and fortunately) labelled themselves as expats rather than immigrants. Lucky really, as many are ageing, infirm and a great liability to the host nations health service. But I digress. Even having said that, we are not voting about free movement of people are we? We are voting whether or not the UK stays in the EU.

The economic argument " We can spend £350,000,000 a week on our NHS instead of sending it to Europe. Putting aside the debate as to how much really is paid to Europe AND how much of the 5th biggest economy in the world is down to us being a part of the EU. The question really is how much of this £350,000,000 is relative to the GDP of the country? The answer is 0.6%.

In other words... If by rejecting free movement of people we, by default also exited the single market, a drop of only 0.6% of GDP would completely wipe out any so called "savings" of the mythical £350,000,000 a week.

Once again, I predict a Brexit vote but a realisation in the coming years of exit negotiations that the consequences are going to be pretty severe. Yesterday, The New York Times called it "a nation sleepwalking into disaster." We won't actually exit. The vote will be seen as a protest, changes will come about and we will Remain a part of the EU.

As for the UK leading the way for a collapse of the EU? Is that what you would have on your conscience? The collapse of the worlds largest trading block would deliver a worldwide recession like nothing that anyone who is alive today has ever seen before.

The United Kingdom is a significant player in the world, a country that should be leading by example, a pathfinding and a driving force for a change in the EU. Quitting should not even be on the agenda.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


" Are you talking about George Osborne? Looks like he committed political and career suicide today. "

Why because you don't like his honesty ..i know coming from the brexit camp honesty is hard for you to understand ... "

I don't think personal comments like that help the discussion. Can we please debate the issues and stop attacking people for holding different views?

george Osborne is playing the 'Project fear' game rather stupidly now. Indeed as one senior 'Remain' Tory said: "Clever bloke but that was stupid". How can he foretell there will be a £30 Billion black hole in our finances 2 days after Brexit? Unless the hole is already there of course.

And as far as leaving is concerned as 'cracken' observed correctly we have two years to conclude a new trade deal with the EU from the date we exercise our rights under Article 50 of the Lisbon Treaty. But lets be very clear. Trade will continue as is with the EU until a new deal is agreed or the two years is up. Likewise trade with the rest of the world will continue under current bilateral trade agreements already in place until we agree better terms (like with India). The sun will rise on the 24th of June as it did on the 23rd and will again on the 25th. People will go to work and they will get paid. Busses will be as late as they were before. Life will go on. BUT the big difference will be that we gradually and peacefully extricate ourselves from the European Court of Justice, new Regulations ad Directives, Euro bailouts and the EU Commission. We keep the money we are currently sending to Brussels and we prioritise how WE wish to spend our money. And our MEPs can hand in their notice any time they like.

And for anyone to start saying how negotiations with the EU will turn out before we even leave is taking a big old punt. What we do know is that the EU will be pissed off. But the EU buys and sells nothing. The Germans will be pissed off as their bills from the EU will be very expensive but we are their biggest car market. France will shrug their shoulders and talk big and then surrender. We run a £61 Bn trade deficit with the EU countries. That alone is 61 Bn reasons to do a good deal with us because whatever tariffs they raise on us will hurt them more. And Frau Merkel will not be allowed to by VW, BMW, MB, Ford and GM.

Personally, after talking with old trade colleagues in Mannheim and Paris, I think we will end up with a deal where we have 2.5% duties on all goods with some exceptions. The same as the USA charges us on our exports to them (although because of the EU we have to charge the USA 10% on their exports to us). We will not have to 'pay in' and we will not have to take 'free movement'.

I hope this helps the discussion....

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"They will want to draw it out for a year or two should we leave to give others the same vote we will have had.

The more disquiet the better the deal.

France and Holland are talking about a vote."

There is a minimum of 2 years notice period.

Like giving 2 months notice before leaving your job

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"

The immigration argument. "Fuck off, we are full" ..... But we are not making an immigration vote are we? We are voting whether or not to stay in a European community where somewhere between 2,000,000 and 2,500,000 Brits have made their home and conveniently (and fortunately) labelled themselves as expats rather than immigrants. Lucky really, as many are ageing, infirm and a great liability to the host nations health service. But I digress.

"

You realise that all those old retired "expats/immigrants" in spains medical bills are charged back to the uk right?

Cause thats a pretty big digression otherwise

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By *aughtyinguMan
over a year ago

swindon

Sadly the remain campaign has been terrible in their choice of information and reasons to put to the public.

Imo we plebs average slightly better if we remain, than if we leave, and the eu has been part of the peacefulness of Europe since ww2, and being a student of history and visited cemeterys and war memorials, eroding the part of what's kept war at bay makes me uneasy.

They've also helped quietly in the background in alot of ways in our lives.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


" As for the UK leading the way for a collapse of the EU? Is that what you would have on your conscience? The collapse of the worlds largest trading block would deliver a worldwide recession like nothing that anyone who is alive today has ever seen before.

The United Kingdom is a significant player in the world, a country that should be leading by example, a pathfinding and a driving force for a change in the EU. Quitting should not even be on the agenda. "

Your piece was a well presented set of thoughts. Forgive me for not copying it all. But can I just pick up on the last two paragraphs? If the UK leaving leads to the collapse of the EU then surely the EU is a good place to leave? A body like that should be stronger than the sum of its parts and one part leaving should not have any effect surely? if it collapses then sorry I really couldn't care less for reasons I will add later. And you really are exaggerating the effect of the collapse of the EU. China and the USA are nearly as big as blocks of trade go and the world recovered from the biggest collapse in 2008. Some of us did better than others who were bogged down by the Euro but hey .... The share of world output accounted for by the 28 current members of the EU has fallen from 30% to 16.5% from 1980 to 2016. The world will manage because underneath all the EU crap will be 27 countries who will find ways to survive. Some better than others.

And the reason I couldn't care less is because sadly you are fundamentally wrong about the EU 'changing'. Yes we are indeed a significant nation (and why Brexit will work for us) but the EU, faced with the loss of that significant player, chose to NOT change, NOT give way and to NOT accommodate reasonable demands. We should not be surprised. It is a politically driven bureaucracy that feeds itself and nothing more. Cameron didn't ask for much and they gave him peanuts. What goes round comes round...

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"Sadly the remain campaign has been terrible in their choice of information and reasons to put to the public.

Imo we plebs average slightly better if we remain, than if we leave, and the eu has been part of the peacefulness of Europe since ww2, and being a student of history and visited cemeterys and war memorials, eroding the part of what's kept war at bay makes me uneasy.

They've also helped quietly in the background in alot of ways in our lives."

I too have visited British Cemeteries in Europe and it shows we paid a high price to keep the flame of freedom burning when they all gave in to Fascism. And that freedom we did so much to return to Europe has been maintained by the USA, primarily, and us in NATO ever since. Not the EU at all which has only existed for some 20 years. And not the EEC before it either even if the Treaty of Rome was set up to avoid German / French conflict.

There is a school of thought that the ever increasing expansion of the EU has actually caused the resurgence of Cold War antipathy, stress and the possibility of war in Eastern Europe. The EU poked its nose into Ukraine and Putin showed just how powerful he is when he annexed Crimea. Open borders allowing millions of illegal migrants to walk wherever they chose has caused mayhem, riots and Right wing Fascist resurgence in Central Europe. God knows how much damage the Euro has done to the Southern European countries ....

So no peace has been maintained by NATO in spite of, not because of, the EU.

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By *avidnsa69Man
over a year ago

Essex & Bridgend


"Why do many people voting in the referendum believe that after a vote to remain that we will be able to reform the EU from within???

When they refused to give us what Cameron asked for initially when they knew a referendum was on the cards??

why do people in the leave camp think the EU will give us a good upon exit if they believe we didn't get a fair deal in the last round of negotiations...negotiations are just that you give some and you get some ..what will be given for an exit deal ?

No answer then??take it you don't understand negotiations..its rate to get exactly what you are seeking as I said it give a little take a little ..you cannot seriously believe. We will get a better out than in to deal with EU member states?

Oh I absolutely believe we will get a much better deal when we stand up for our country, don't accept the crumbs offered, vote with our feet and lead the way for other European countries to follow. Dependent on who is negotiating of course...and yes I'm very familiar with that concept.

Can you give an example of any other club or membership organisation where you leave, stop paying to be a member, and then get a better deal than when you were a member?

Other countries have gained free trade deals with none of the downsides to membership of the EU.

Depends on how much the EU values our custom.....

The answer to your question is no I can't name one. But this isn't like membership of a gym or the AA so it's not really comparable. "

No trade deals with unfettered access to the single market have been agreed without freedom of movement and the payment of massive subs....ask Norway or Switzerland

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"Why do many people voting in the referendum believe that after a vote to remain that we will be able to reform the EU from within???

When they refused to give us what Cameron asked for initially when they knew a referendum was on the cards??

why do people in the leave camp think the EU will give us a good upon exit if they believe we didn't get a fair deal in the last round of negotiations...negotiations are just that you give some and you get some ..what will be given for an exit deal ?

No answer then??take it you don't understand negotiations..its rate to get exactly what you are seeking as I said it give a little take a little ..you cannot seriously believe. We will get a better out than in to deal with EU member states?

Oh I absolutely believe we will get a much better deal when we stand up for our country, don't accept the crumbs offered, vote with our feet and lead the way for other European countries to follow. Dependent on who is negotiating of course...and yes I'm very familiar with that concept.

Can you give an example of any other club or membership organisation where you leave, stop paying to be a member, and then get a better deal than when you were a member?

Other countries have gained free trade deals with none of the downsides to membership of the EU.

Depends on how much the EU values our custom.....

The answer to your question is no I can't name one. But this isn't like membership of a gym or the AA so it's not really comparable.

No trade deals with unfettered access to the single market have been agreed without freedom of movement and the payment of massive subs....ask Norway or Switzerland"

South korea?

Tarrif free trade on aprox 98% of goods excluding soem agricultural product.

No subs or free movment.

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By *avidnsa69Man
over a year ago

Essex & Bridgend


"Why do many people voting in the referendum believe that after a vote to remain that we will be able to reform the EU from within???

When they refused to give us what Cameron asked for initially when they knew a referendum was on the cards??

why do people in the leave camp think the EU will give us a good upon exit if they believe we didn't get a fair deal in the last round of negotiations...negotiations are just that you give some and you get some ..what will be given for an exit deal ?

No answer then??take it you don't understand negotiations..its rate to get exactly what you are seeking as I said it give a little take a little ..you cannot seriously believe. We will get a better out than in to deal with EU member states?

Oh I absolutely believe we will get a much better deal when we stand up for our country, don't accept the crumbs offered, vote with our feet and lead the way for other European countries to follow. Dependent on who is negotiating of course...and yes I'm very familiar with that concept.

Can you give an example of any other club or membership organisation where you leave, stop paying to be a member, and then get a better deal than when you were a member?

Other countries have gained free trade deals with none of the downsides to membership of the EU.

Depends on how much the EU values our custom.....

The answer to your question is no I can't name one. But this isn't like membership of a gym or the AA so it's not really comparable.

No trade deals with unfettered access to the single market have been agreed without freedom of movement and the payment of massive subs....ask Norway or Switzerland

South korea?

Tarrif free trade on aprox 98% of goods excluding soem agricultural product.

No subs or free movment.

"

Not unfettered and covers agricultural and industrial....what aboutservices?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"Why do many people voting in the referendum believe that after a vote to remain that we will be able to reform the EU from within???

When they refused to give us what Cameron asked for initially when they knew a referendum was on the cards??

why do people in the leave camp think the EU will give us a good upon exit if they believe we didn't get a fair deal in the last round of negotiations...negotiations are just that you give some and you get some ..what will be given for an exit deal ?

No answer then??take it you don't understand negotiations..its rate to get exactly what you are seeking as I said it give a little take a little ..you cannot seriously believe. We will get a better out than in to deal with EU member states?

Oh I absolutely believe we will get a much better deal when we stand up for our country, don't accept the crumbs offered, vote with our feet and lead the way for other European countries to follow. Dependent on who is negotiating of course...and yes I'm very familiar with that concept.

Can you give an example of any other club or membership organisation where you leave, stop paying to be a member, and then get a better deal than when you were a member?

Other countries have gained free trade deals with none of the downsides to membership of the EU.

Depends on how much the EU values our custom.....

The answer to your question is no I can't name one. But this isn't like membership of a gym or the AA so it's not really comparable.

No trade deals with unfettered access to the single market have been agreed without freedom of movement and the payment of massive subs....ask Norway or Switzerland

South korea?

Tarrif free trade on aprox 98% of goods excluding soem agricultural product.

No subs or free movment.

Not unfettered and covers agricultural and industrial....what aboutservices?"

http://ec.europa.eu/trade/policy/countries-and-regions/countries/south-korea/index_en.htm

Feel free to read coveres services and is expanding but the EU is the main exporter of services there.

But its a far better seal than most remain are saying is possible

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Heres the actual deal if you want to read it

http://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/PDF/?uri=OJ:L:2011:127:FULL&from=EN

I assume we can link to the official EU site?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


" No trade deals with unfettered access to the single market have been agreed without freedom of movement and the payment of massive subs....ask Norway or Switzerland "

So when did China, Russia and the USA start paying to export to the EU then?

We are not anything like either of those 2 countries mentioned in size, trading profiles or populations. Why do people always mention these two as exemplars when neither country wants anything more than trade with the EU unlike us who are hamstrung with regulations / Directives, pay a nett £13.2 Bn a year average and enjoy a £61 Bn a year trade deficit. Oh and we export £ Millions every year to foreign mothers in Child Benefit. Those two countries never joined this wonderful 'club'.

Two reasons why they agreed the deals they did and we won't:

* Norway is the EU's 5th most important import partner for trade in goods, after China, Russia, USA and Switzerland.

* The EU remains the first major import and export partner for Norway, capturing 74.3% of the latter's trade.

Source:

http://ec.europa.eu/trade/policy/countries-and-regions/countries/norway/

No one knows what Trade Deal will be agreed in the two years after Brexit. But pure self interests say that the EU will be reined in from zealous revenge by their (then) sole PayMaster and PayMistress in France and Germany who will put their exports to the UK before anything else. Whatever trade deal IS agreed it will be the same for both sides. Its up to the EU how much damage they wish to do to themselves. We will be free to lower tariffs with the rest of the world. Like the USA.

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By *an_WoodMan
over a year ago

Stafford

Norway has a sovereign wealth fund from oil. We have a large trade deficit. That means the UK needs constant inward investment from overseas investors. Vote leave and see how that pans out

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"Norway has a sovereign wealth fund from oil. We have a large trade deficit. That means the UK needs constant inward investment from overseas investors. Vote leave and see how that pans out "

so what are you doing if the Leave vote wins?

you bailing out?

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By *abioMan
over a year ago

Newcastle and Gateshead

i think it was more interesting in the polls today that those who vote remain are more likley to looked at all the evidence.. and those who are intending to vote leave don't believe anything anyone is saying......experts and all

which does may me wonder what is the point of anyone saying anything

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By *an_WoodMan
over a year ago

Stafford


"Norway has a sovereign wealth fund from oil. We have a large trade deficit. That means the UK needs constant inward investment from overseas investors. Vote leave and see how that pans out

so what are you doing if the Leave vote wins?

you bailing out?"

Yes in a black helicopter

Or going back to work and watching the Conservative party implode. Every cloud has a silver lining

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

What really worry's me is what are you guys going to argue over when the referendum is over

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By *nleashedCrakenMan
over a year ago

Widnes

[Removed by poster at 16/06/16 12:56:04]

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By *nleashedCrakenMan
over a year ago

Widnes


"Why do many people voting in the referendum believe that after a vote to remain that we will be able to reform the EU from within???

When they refused to give us what Cameron asked for initially when they knew a referendum was on the cards??

why do people in the leave camp think the EU will give us a good upon exit if they believe we didn't get a fair deal in the last round of negotiations...negotiations are just that you give some and you get some ..what will be given for an exit deal ?

No answer then??take it you don't understand negotiations..its rate to get exactly what you are seeking as I said it give a little take a little ..you cannot seriously believe. We will get a better out than in to deal with EU member states?

Oh I absolutely believe we will get a much better deal when we stand up for our country, don't accept the crumbs offered, vote with our feet and lead the way for other European countries to follow. Dependent on who is negotiating of course...and yes I'm very familiar with that concept.

Can you give an example of any other club or membership organisation where you leave, stop paying to be a member, and then get a better deal than when you were a member?

Or where stamping your feet and saying, I'm better than all of you so give me what I want NOW! gets you what you want?

Are you talking about George Osborne? Looks like he committed political and career suicide today.

Why because you don't like his honesty ..i know coming from the brexit camp honesty is hard for you to understand ...

What a laughable statement, so remain hasn't been flashing billy bullshit at anytime, also polititians and honesty in the same breath......fuckin please

Ah another gullible one ..the brexit campaign has been built on bullshit if you are that naïve you believe bojo and farage two of the biggest buffoons in British politics today..you sure you will be able to find you way alone to the poling station ..

Ah so i'm gullible as well as fick and ill imformed, do i also read the daily mail, i'll be sure to take a copy with me when i mull over my decision in the booth "

I've no idea if you're any of those things and, to be frank, I don't care either. As far as I'm concerned you're just wrong. But tell me again why you think the EU is going to give us a better trading deal when we leave than either we have now or that they have given to any other nation; especially as, if they do give the UK a better deal, that would be signing their own death warrant?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"i think it was more interesting in the polls today that those who vote remain are more likley to looked at all the evidence.. and those who are intending to vote leave don't believe anything anyone is saying......experts and all

which does may me wonder what is the point of anyone saying anything"

Got a link for that Poll? Because none of the Polls I have been looking at today (and I declare an interest here: I volunteer for Vote leave) say anything of the sort. Its not the fact you / Remain are saying anything and you are being ignored its the fact that what is being said is actually being understood to be utter rubbish.

In fact the Polls in the all the main papers say the opposite. People ARE now paying great attention to what is being said and they are disbelieving the 'Project Fear' forecasts of doom and destruction. The Polls are showing that Immigration is now more important to voters than the economy and when the economy is looked at they disbelieve Osborne, Cameron, and especially the Treasury and all the so called 'experts'. Only 17% of people believe the Chancellor’s flagship claim that UK households will lose £4,300 and be permanently poorer after a Brexit. A majority believe they will be better off after 5 years out of the EU than in. Leave are ahead overall by between 6% and 10% in every poll.

The Evening Standard has been running a poll online for readers. An hour ago it was 67% for Leave and 33% for Remain when people were asked those two choices only. 51,800 people voted to Leave.

http://www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/brexit-poll-most-brits-do-want-to-leave-one-week-to-go-before-eu-referendum-vote-a3273141.html

I think the British people are not mugs. They do not like being treated as mugs let alone threatened. And to infer (as some have) that people are thick or less capable if they vote 'Leave' sort of says it all to me about the attitudes of the 'Remain' campaign. Smug, arrogant and downright offensive.

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By *nleashedCrakenMan
over a year ago

Widnes


"If we leave we're going to have WW3,pensioners will suffer,taxes will go up 10%,the poor will get poorer because the rich won't let themselves be poorer and we're all going to contract genital herpes...so I've heard.

Donald Tusk from the EU said the other day "if Britain leaves the EU it will be the end of Western civilisation".

How he could say that with a straight face I'll never know, scaremongering rubbish of the highest order. "

Except that he didn't actually say that. What he actually said was "if Britain leaved it could mean not only the death of the EU but also the end of Western Political Civilization"

If you're going to quote someone at least quote them correctly.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I don't think they are thick but many are uninformed definitely. I've spoken to people who have never voted in a general or local election and are shouting like they know all the facts about the EU when in fact they know nothing, this is the same for both sides.

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By *nleashedCrakenMan
over a year ago

Widnes


"I'm inclined to think that the referendum wasn't prepared for and managed that well. It's unrealistic to expect that most of the population can find and assimilate all pertinent facts, in order to make a cogent decision.

As a vitally important referendum the government should have prepared and informed the country first, rather than rushing to get voting done.

If we vote to leave then immigration stays exactly the same for many years. We would be foolish to rush an exit without agreeing the best terms for ourselves. Any fool could sign up to a deal that gives nothing, just to get it done quickly, making a few dummies happy.

I think it will be the better part of 10 years until it could be settled properly.

And the swivel eyed ones will still be frothing for all of that time

and this just about sums up what is wrong with a lot of the people on the Remain side. Of course, you are far more intelligent and knowledgable than most of the population aren't you? I imagine you even know what is better for them than they do eh"

People on BREMAIN are fighting for and doing what they believe to be in the best interests of Britain and its people. Some are more intelligent and knowledgeable than the average, others are not. Whilst I can't see how BREXIT could possibly believe that what they are trying to achieve could ever possibly be in the best interests of Britain and its people I'm willing to accept that most do actually believe that, and I'm pretty sure they have just as many who are above and below average intelligence to.

In my experience those that question the motives and personalities of their rivals are normally saying far more about their own motives and inabilities to accept that other points of view than their own may be valid to.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


" But tell me again why you think the EU is going to give us a better trading deal when we leave than either we have now or that they have given to any other nation; especially as, if they do give the UK a better deal, that would be signing their own death warrant? "

You have no idea if signing such a deal will be the death of the EU so that is a total Red Herring.

The deal we have with the USA is 2.5% on our exports to them and 10% on their exports to us. That is how the EU works. It 'protects' its internal tariff free zone by erecting trade barriers. Like for example Scottish Whisky faces a 117% duty going into India erected because of how the EU has acted against India. We could make a better deal with the Indians and be better off.

So worldwide we can only improive the deals we already have and as they are all UK Bilateral deals and nothing to do with the EU they cannot interfere with those UK negotiated deals. Especially the Commonwealth which has preferential deals for its members including us. The EU cannot interfere there either.

So we are left with the EU itself. A declining trading force now down from 30% to some 16.5% of world trade. It is EU countries that trade with us not the EU. They just play politics. And those EU countries earn an extra £61 Bn a year from us than we earn from them. That alone is 61 Bn reasons why they will cut a deal. It may well not be a Tariff free deal but then we do not have such a deal IN the EU. And it will not be a 10% sort of deal and we will NEVER agree to any Norway / Swiss type of deal. And for 2 years we carry on as now but can unshackle ourselves from the ECJ, more regulations and Directives and immediately stop unfettered immigration. Something that the British people now say is THE most important matter to be resolved.

If the EU want to shoot themselves in the foot then fine. But they won't. Germany won't let them.

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By *horehouse OP   Couple
over a year ago

dissatisfied


" But tell me again why you think the EU is going to give us a better trading deal when we leave than either we have now or that they have given to any other nation; especially as, if they do give the UK a better deal, that would be signing their own death warrant?

You have no idea if signing such a deal will be the death of the EU so that is a total Red Herring.

The deal we have with the USA is 2.5% on our exports to them and 10% on their exports to us. That is how the EU works. It 'protects' its internal tariff free zone by erecting trade barriers. Like for example Scottish Whisky faces a 117% duty going into India erected because of how the EU has acted against India. We could make a better deal with the Indians and be better off.

So worldwide we can only improive the deals we already have and as they are all UK Bilateral deals and nothing to do with the EU they cannot interfere with those UK negotiated deals. Especially the Commonwealth which has preferential deals for its members including us. The EU cannot interfere there either.

So we are left with the EU itself. A declining trading force now down from 30% to some 16.5% of world trade. It is EU countries that trade with us not the EU. They just play politics. And those EU countries earn an extra £61 Bn a year from us than we earn from them. That alone is 61 Bn reasons why they will cut a deal. It may well not be a Tariff free deal but then we do not have such a deal IN the EU. And it will not be a 10% sort of deal and we will NEVER agree to any Norway / Swiss type of deal. And for 2 years we carry on as now but can unshackle ourselves from the ECJ, more regulations and Directives and immediately stop unfettered immigration. Something that the British people now say is THE most important matter to be resolved.

If the EU want to shoot themselves in the foot then fine. But they won't. Germany won't let them."

The conservative led British government will put

Trade first

Freedom of movement second

EU laws and regulations third

Everything else way down the list when negotiating a deal

trade will win over everything else ... so a Norway type deal is what we will receive ..get real british business pays for the tory party .dont be fooled into thinking the version of out will be the dreamy version as depicted by the brexit campaign ...

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By *abioMan
over a year ago

Newcastle and Gateshead


"i think it was more interesting in the polls today that those who vote remain are more likley to looked at all the evidence.. and those who are intending to vote leave don't believe anything anyone is saying......experts and all

which does may me wonder what is the point of anyone saying anything

Got a link for that Poll? Because none of the Polls I have been looking at today (and I declare an interest here: I volunteer for Vote leave) say anything of the sort. Its not the fact you / Remain are saying anything and you are being ignored its the fact that what is being said is actually being understood to be utter rubbish.

In fact the Polls in the all the main papers say the opposite. People ARE now paying great attention to what is being said and they are disbelieving the 'Project Fear' forecasts of doom and destruction. The Polls are showing that Immigration is now more important to voters than the economy and when the economy is looked at they disbelieve Osborne, Cameron, and especially the Treasury and all the so called 'experts'. Only 17% of people believe the Chancellor’s flagship claim that UK households will lose £4,300 and be permanently poorer after a Brexit. A majority believe they will be better off after 5 years out of the EU than in. Leave are ahead overall by between 6% and 10% in every poll.

The Evening Standard has been running a poll online for readers. An hour ago it was 67% for Leave and 33% for Remain when people were asked those two choices only. 51,800 people voted to Leave.

http://www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/brexit-poll-most-brits-do-want-to-leave-one-week-to-go-before-eu-referendum-vote-a3273141.html

I think the British people are not mugs. They do not like being treated as mugs let alone threatened. And to infer (as some have) that people are thick or less capable if they vote 'Leave' sort of says it all to me about the attitudes of the 'Remain' campaign. Smug, arrogant and downright offensive."

sure..... it was yesterday yougov poll.... i know that yougov aren't one of the sites i am allowed to link, but it did make for an interesting read.... it did show a leave lead... but from a statistical point of view it made for a really interesting read...

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By *oxesMan
over a year ago

Southend, Essex


"Why do many people voting in the referendum believe that after a vote to leave we will no longer be part of the EU ..on the 24th ..when in fact it could be many years after the referendum before our exit from the EU .whichever way the vote goes on the 24 th we will still be a member of the EU ..until the Tory government has negotiated otherwise ....."

the eu laws dictate that its has to be a 2year process of leaving the eu at least in order to negotiate a deal.

there are many types of eu memberships and nonmembership trade deals that are really complex. out of all the european trade agreements with european nations all have had to have freedom movmement principle.

canada is looking to upgrade their status currently they have an SPA and are certa members but not full eu members.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"Why do many people voting in the referendum believe that after a vote to leave we will no longer be part of the EU ..on the 24th ..when in fact it could be many years after the referendum before our exit from the EU .whichever way the vote goes on the 24 th we will still be a member of the EU ..until the Tory government has negotiated otherwise .....

the eu laws dictate that its has to be a 2year process of leaving the eu at least in order to negotiate a deal.

there are many types of eu memberships and nonmembership trade deals that are really complex. out of all the european trade agreements with european nations all have had to have freedom movmement principle.

canada is looking to upgrade their status currently they have an SPA and are certa members but not full eu members."

A 2 year minimum on membership.

Everything can be extended temp while things are worked out.

I honestly find it bizzare that people think with the lively hood of hundreds of millions, incalculable amounts of money and the fate of entire nations economies at stake the negotiators are going to resort to what you'd expect from school children.

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By *orseydaveMan
over a year ago

Norwich NR5

well said that man

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By *oxesMan
over a year ago

Southend, Essex


"Listened to great piece on R4 yesterday where studies showed many people do not find facts to make a decision but instead make an un-informed decision and then look for facts that back it up.

The main way you could tell if this had been the case was when the person could see only pros on one side and only cons on the other.

Someone who had studies the facts first was more likely to be able list pros and cons for both sides of an opinion.

Incredible how many "decision first, facts later" types there are ranting day and night in this forum! "

that's really interesting. I think most people have not been well informed as the arguments are mainly business arguments and they on both sides. plus some people dont understand the arguments being said.

I really hope im not one of those peeps who have an ideaoligy and then cone facts to back it up. I was originally out when the referendum idea was orriginally mentioned the day after the general election. but I had a deep think and I realised how much the eu has done for me, I certanly wpuld not ve in the job now if it wernt for eu funded courses. So I have changed aligences

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By *oxesMan
over a year ago

Southend, Essex


"Why do many people voting in the referendum believe that after a vote to leave we will no longer be part of the EU ..on the 24th ..when in fact it could be many years after the referendum before our exit from the EU .whichever way the vote goes on the 24 th we will still be a member of the EU ..until the Tory government has negotiated otherwise .....

the eu laws dictate that its has to be a 2year process of leaving the eu at least in order to negotiate a deal.

there are many types of eu memberships and nonmembership trade deals that are really complex. out of all the european trade agreements with european nations all have had to have freedom movmement principle.

canada is looking to upgrade their status currently they have an SPA and are certa members but not full eu members.

A 2 year minimum on membership.

Everything can be extended temp while things are worked out.

I honestly find it bizzare that people think with the lively hood of hundreds of millions, incalculable amounts of money and the fate of entire nations economies at stake the negotiators are going to resort to what you'd expect from school children.

"

um sir the eu chancalor called me an idiot

no I did not

thats it no freedom of movment for your country

lol

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By *oxesMan
over a year ago

Southend, Essex


"Why do many people voting in the referendum believe that after a vote to leave we will no longer be part of the EU ..on the 24th ..when in fact it could be many years after the referendum before our exit from the EU .whichever way the vote goes on the 24 th we will still be a member of the EU ..until the Tory government has negotiated otherwise .....

the eu laws dictate that its has to be a 2year process of leaving the eu at least in order to negotiate a deal.

there are many types of eu memberships and nonmembership trade deals that are really complex. out of all the european trade agreements with european nations all have had to have freedom movmement principle.

canada is looking to upgrade their status currently they have an SPA and are certa members but not full eu members.

A 2 year minimum on membership.

Everything can be extended temp while things are worked out.

I honestly find it bizzare that people think with the lively hood of hundreds of millions, incalculable amounts of money and the fate of entire nations economies at stake the negotiators are going to resort to what you'd expect from school children.

"

they will work something out there is a lot of money at steak. Plus britan need an eu trade deal. The eu does but less so me thinks.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


" but I had a deep think and I realised how much the eu has done for me, I certanly wpuld not ve in the job now if it wernt for eu funded courses. So I have changed aligences "

I can totally understand your change of heart and you must vote as much with your head as your heart. But do please consider this one fact regarding your change of heart. That wasn't the 'EU' whose money paid for your courses. It was UK Taxpayers money being recycled by the EU. And there is no reason to believe that or similar courses could not be provided post Brexit by the £13.2 Bn every year that will here in the UK rather than sitting in the EU's coffers.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


" The conservative led British government will put

Trade first

Freedom of movement second

EU laws and regulations third

Everything else way down the list when negotiating a deal

trade will win over everything else ... so a Norway type deal is what we will receive ..get real british business pays for the tory party .dont be fooled into thinking the version of out will be the dreamy version as depicted by the brexit campaign ... "

First off it is a Conservative Government. They don't just lead it.

But the proposal from the Vote Leave side is for a cross party group or committee to supervise the negotiations regarding leaving. They will establish priorities not one single political party.

Trade may indeed be the first priority but there is no need for it to be. We have 2 years to negotiate that and I suspect a seasoned negotiator will want any bad feelings to have ebbed away before negotiating. But its really depressing that you make certain statements and then assume that will lead to a Norway type agreement. Where are your justifications? I posted above solid factual reasons it will not be a Norway or Swiss model because those countries seriously rely on the EU for trade. We don't. As you mention Norway you do realise some 74% of their exports go to the EU? No wonder they were happy to pay for entry they make more out of their export earnings. We however do NOT have that dependency while the EU does need our £61 Bn a year surplus. The UK and Norway are vastly different economic models.

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By *horehouse OP   Couple
over a year ago

dissatisfied


" The conservative led British government will put

Trade first

Freedom of movement second

EU laws and regulations third

Everything else way down the list when negotiating a deal

trade will win over everything else ... so a Norway type deal is what we will receive ..get real british business pays for the tory party .dont be fooled into thinking the version of out will be the dreamy version as depicted by the brexit campaign ...

First off it is a Conservative Government. They don't just lead it.

But the proposal from the Vote Leave side is for a cross party group or committee to supervise the negotiations regarding leaving. They will establish priorities not one single political party.

Trade may indeed be the first priority but there is no need for it to be. We have 2 years to negotiate that and I suspect a seasoned negotiator will want any bad feelings to have ebbed away before negotiating. But its really depressing that you make certain statements and then assume that will lead to a Norway type agreement. Where are your justifications? I posted above solid factual reasons it will not be a Norway or Swiss model because those countries seriously rely on the EU for trade. We don't. As you mention Norway you do realise some 74% of their exports go to the EU? No wonder they were happy to pay for entry they make more out of their export earnings. We however do NOT have that dependency while the EU does need our £61 Bn a year surplus. The UK and Norway are vastly different economic models.

"

Point one its a proposal from brexit ..nothin brexit proposes has any validity ..

Point 2 nearly 50% of our exports goes to the EU.

Point 3the tory party are the government it will be there responsibility to negotiate an exit then parliament

ro vote on it ..

Point four Norway or Swiss type deal as it fits the needs of the UK closest

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


" Point one its a proposal from brexit ..nothin brexit proposes has any validity .. "

Oh right. So the British people who are now turning their backs in substantial numbers on Project Fear and the utter bollocks being poured out by the Remain side have no validity?

Do tell us what 'validity' that £4,300 figure Osborne said we would all lose on Brexit now has? Totally discredited just like the 'leaflet' that cost us all £9 Mn. And YOU have the nerve to talk about 'validity'?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


" Point 2 nearly 50% of our exports goes to the EU. "

Percentages are far less important than values when you talk trade Old Son. And the real numbers are that the EU makes £61 Bn a year profit out of the UK. It also takes £13.2 Bn average off us every year. Plus all the Millions we send to Poland and Hungary and wherever keeping young mothers in the style of life to which they have become accustomed on British Child Benefit.

So in real hard cash money the EU costs the UK taxpayer over £74 Bn a year. Oh wait I guess you didn't realise we have to borrow money to fund a trade deficit?

The EU will do a deal or lose a shedload of money. We are NOT Norway that NEEDS the EU export market. Where is our national need in giving £61 Bn away in an unbalanced trade?

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By *horehouse OP   Couple
over a year ago

dissatisfied


" Point 2 nearly 50% of our exports goes to the EU.

Percentages are far less important than values when you talk trade Old Son. And the real numbers are that the EU makes £61 Bn a year profit out of the UK. It also takes £13.2 Bn average off us every year. Plus all the Millions we send to Poland and Hungary and wherever keeping young mothers in the style of life to which they have become accustomed on British Child Benefit.

So in real hard cash money the EU costs the UK taxpayer over £74 Bn a year. Oh wait I guess you didn't realise we have to borrow money to fund a trade deficit?

The EU will do a deal or lose a shedload of money. We are NOT Norway that NEEDS the EU export market. Where is our national need in giving £61 Bn away in an unbalanced trade?"

The Uk exports approx 140 billion pounds worth of exports to the EU not a % so a Norway type deal is needed for the UK

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


" No trade deals with unfettered access to the single market have been agreed without freedom of movement and the payment of massive subs....ask Norway or Switzerland

So when did China, Russia and the USA start paying to export to the EU then?

....

....

....

Its up to the EU how much damage they wish to do to themselves. We will be free to lower tariffs with the rest of the world. Like the USA. "

At the end of that long and winding road you took us along, you answered your own question. China, Russia and the USA started to pay to export to the EU with the very first container of goods that they exported to the EU. It's the tariffs are how they pay to export to the EU.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


" Point 2 nearly 50% of our exports goes to the EU.

Percentages are far less important than values when you talk trade Old Son. And the real numbers are that the EU makes £61 Bn a year profit out of the UK. It also takes £13.2 Bn average off us every year. Plus all the Millions we send to Poland and Hungary and wherever keeping young mothers in the style of life to which they have become accustomed on British Child Benefit.

So in real hard cash money the EU costs the UK taxpayer over £74 Bn a year. Oh wait I guess you didn't realise we have to borrow money to fund a trade deficit?

The EU will do a deal or lose a shedload of money. We are NOT Norway that NEEDS the EU export market. Where is our national need in giving £61 Bn away in an unbalanced trade?"

I guess the £140 bn or so that we sell in goods to the EU each year doesn't matter then to people who deal in net figures. After all it's only people's jobs and livelihoods at stake in the UK while Brexiters play billy big bollocks with your unnecessary trade war threats.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Now about we knock this on the head for the day guys out of respect for Jo Cox MP like someone asked for on the other threads.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"Now about we knock this on the head for the day guys out of respect for Jo Cox MP like someone asked for on the other threads. "

I am out .....

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"Why do many people voting in the referendum believe that after a vote to leave we will no longer be part of the EU ..on the 24th ..when in fact it could be many years after the referendum before our exit from the EU .whichever way the vote goes on the 24 th we will still be a member of the EU ..until the Tory government has negotiated otherwise ..........what if they deliberately go slow on the negotiations and thus creatie a situation where we are still IN to all extents and purposes, even thought the vote was for OUT?

in theory they could.... however the question is not just how long are they going to want to drag out the process, because it wouldn't be in the other 27 countries interest.....

so that why cameron as side he will start the "2 year leave clock" as soon as.... where as leave funny enough want to go at a time that suits them...."

I'm not sure who thinks it'll star as and when we want it to...It actually does technically start from the point we say no if we win....the government always drags it's feet on something they don't want to happen and rush passing something they do. Another reason to say no....It'll bring this government down....a good reason for the yes ers. ..to start that too...may save alot of lobbying later . The very fact as you state clearly that the EU don't want us to leave indicates how much they rely upon us...which strengthens what so many have been saying.....they will try to renegotiate attractive deals with us.... makes it a bit easier for those who are struggling in Government atm... Cameron has promised deals in the past and not got them....wonder why...I'll answer simply...his hands are tied with all the red tape and strings that the EU have on us and it'sother members. Pair of scissors anyone...

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


" Point one its a proposal from brexit ..nothin brexit proposes has any validity ..

Oh right. So the British people who are now turning their backs in substantial numbers on Project Fear and the utter bollocks being poured out by the Remain side have no validity?

Do tell us what 'validity' that £4,300 figure Osborne said we would all lose on Brexit now has? Totally discredited just like the 'leaflet' that cost us all £9 Mn. And YOU have the nerve to talk about 'validity'?"

I personally thought that leaflet was worth every penny of the angst it causes people like you. As for the £4300 per year cost, the criticism from the treasury committee, who reviewed the evidence very thoroughly, was that it should be cited as a range between about £3200 and £5500. While you are being a complete charlatan with your quote of a nett average figure for the UK membership of the EU, you don't really have a right to criticise the numbers that others use.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


" Point 2 nearly 50% of our exports goes to the EU.

Percentages are far less important than values when you talk trade Old Son. And the real numbers are that the EU makes £61 Bn a year profit out of the UK. It also takes £13.2 Bn average off us every year. Plus all the Millions we send to Poland and Hungary and wherever keeping young mothers in the style of life to which they have become accustomed on British Child Benefit.

So in real hard cash money the EU costs the UK taxpayer over £74 Bn a year. Oh wait I guess you didn't realise we have to borrow money to fund a trade deficit?

The EU will do a deal or lose a shedload of money. We are NOT Norway that NEEDS the EU export market. Where is our national need in giving £61 Bn away in an unbalanced trade?

I guess the £140 bn or so that we sell in goods to the EU each year doesn't matter then to people who deal in net figures. After all it's only people's jobs and livelihoods at stake in the UK while Brexiters play billy big bollocks with your unnecessary trade war threats."

That won't change much.... screen save this and come back to me in 2 yrs if you're still on here. We sell far more to China. ..India. ..and America than to Europe. .. they even tax us on what we sell there...now thats a free European market isn't it?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"Now about we knock this on the head for the day guys out of respect for Jo Cox MP like someone asked for on the other threads.

I am out ....."

At lest one person has some kind common decency

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By *rinking-in-laCouple
over a year ago

Bristol


"Now about we knock this on the head for the day guys out of respect for Jo Cox MP like someone asked for on the other threads. "

How does that help her or anyone?

These debates need to happen.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"Now about we knock this on the head for the day guys out of respect for Jo Cox MP like someone asked for on the other threads.

How does that help her or anyone?

These debates need to happen. "

They do. Just not today ...

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By *errygTV/TS
over a year ago

denton

it wont be a overnight job to leave, but if your holidaying in spain and we vote leave, no doubt your tabacco allowance will go next day, no blue gate, 200 cigs and 1 bottle

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"Now about we knock this on the head for the day guys out of respect for Jo Cox MP like someone asked for on the other threads.

How does that help her or anyone?

These debates need to happen. "

You can't go one day with this then I feel very sorry for you, you do what you like mate I was just giving an opinion

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By *entaur_UKMan
over a year ago

Cannock


"If we leave we're going to have WW3,pensioners will suffer,taxes will go up 10%,the poor will get poorer because the rich won't let themselves be poorer and we're all going to contract genital herpes...so I've heard.

Donald Tusk from the EU said the other day "if Britain leaves the EU it will be the end of Western civilisation".

How he could say that with a straight face I'll never know, scaremongering rubbish of the highest order.

Except that he didn't actually say that. What he actually said was "if Britain leaved it could mean not only the death of the EU but also the end of Western Political Civilization"

If you're going to quote someone at least quote them correctly."

As I said then, still scaremongering rubbish of the highest order.

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By *entaur_UKMan
over a year ago

Cannock


"i think it was more interesting in the polls today that those who vote remain are more likley to looked at all the evidence.. and those who are intending to vote leave don't believe anything anyone is saying......experts and all

which does may me wonder what is the point of anyone saying anything

Got a link for that Poll? Because none of the Polls I have been looking at today (and I declare an interest here: I volunteer for Vote leave) say anything of the sort. Its not the fact you / Remain are saying anything and you are being ignored its the fact that what is being said is actually being understood to be utter rubbish.

In fact the Polls in the all the main papers say the opposite. People ARE now paying great attention to what is being said and they are disbelieving the 'Project Fear' forecasts of doom and destruction. The Polls are showing that Immigration is now more important to voters than the economy and when the economy is looked at they disbelieve Osborne, Cameron, and especially the Treasury and all the so called 'experts'. Only 17% of people believe the Chancellor’s flagship claim that UK households will lose £4,300 and be permanently poorer after a Brexit. A majority believe they will be better off after 5 years out of the EU than in. Leave are ahead overall by between 6% and 10% in every poll.

The Evening Standard has been running a poll online for readers. An hour ago it was 67% for Leave and 33% for Remain when people were asked those two choices only. 51,800 people voted to Leave.

http://www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/brexit-poll-most-brits-do-want-to-leave-one-week-to-go-before-eu-referendum-vote-a3273141.html

I think the British people are not mugs. They do not like being treated as mugs let alone threatened. And to infer (as some have) that people are thick or less capable if they vote 'Leave' sort of says it all to me about the attitudes of the 'Remain' campaign. Smug, arrogant and downright offensive."

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By *illwill69uMan
over a year ago

moston

With the amount of contradictory black propaganda pumped out by both sides I think there are very few who are well informed.

Being duped by misinformation is something everyone is vulnerable to.

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By *nleashedCrakenMan
over a year ago

Widnes


" But tell me again why you think the EU is going to give us a better trading deal when we leave than either we have now or that they have given to any other nation; especially as, if they do give the UK a better deal, that would be signing their own death warrant?

You have no idea if signing such a deal will be the death of the EU so that is a total Red Herring.

The deal we have with the USA is 2.5% on our exports to them and 10% on their exports to us. That is how the EU works. It 'protects' its internal tariff free zone by erecting trade barriers. Like for example Scottish Whisky faces a 117% duty going into India erected because of how the EU has acted against India. We could make a better deal with the Indians and be better off.

So worldwide we can only improive the deals we already have and as they are all UK Bilateral deals and nothing to do with the EU they cannot interfere with those UK negotiated deals. Especially the Commonwealth which has preferential deals for its members including us. The EU cannot interfere there either.

So we are left with the EU itself. A declining trading force now down from 30% to some 16.5% of world trade. It is EU countries that trade with us not the EU. They just play politics. And those EU countries earn an extra £61 Bn a year from us than we earn from them. That alone is 61 Bn reasons why they will cut a deal. It may well not be a Tariff free deal but then we do not have such a deal IN the EU. And it will not be a 10% sort of deal and we will NEVER agree to any Norway / Swiss type of deal. And for 2 years we carry on as now but can unshackle ourselves from the ECJ, more regulations and Directives and immediately stop unfettered immigration. Something that the British people now say is THE most important matter to be resolved.

If the EU want to shoot themselves in the foot then fine. But they won't. Germany won't let them."

A lot of what you say here is simply not true. We will still be part of the EU for at least 2 years and will still be bound by treaty to its rules until we have actually left. That means no change for two years, unless you're now saying that Britain should renege on its international treaty obligations (I'm not sure that would do our reputation much good when it came to trying to negotiate trade deals with the rest of the world).

Could you also tell me where I can find information about the UK/US bilateral trade agreement you talk about because I can't find any information on it. In fact I understood from reading the Vote Leave site that one of the perceived problems with being in the EU was that we could not negotiate our own bilateral trade deals with the rest of the world, but you seem to be saying that we obviously can and do. Can you clarify this please.

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By *nleashedCrakenMan
over a year ago

Widnes


" But tell me again why you think the EU is going to give us a better trading deal when we leave than either we have now or that they have given to any other nation; especially as, if they do give the UK a better deal, that would be signing their own death warrant?

You have no idea if signing such a deal will be the death of the EU so that is a total Red Herring.

The deal we have with the USA is 2.5% on our exports to them and 10% on their exports to us. That is how the EU works. It 'protects' its internal tariff free zone by erecting trade barriers. Like for example Scottish Whisky faces a 117% duty going into India erected because of how the EU has acted against India. We could make a better deal with the Indians and be better off.

So worldwide we can only improive the deals we already have and as they are all UK Bilateral deals and nothing to do with the EU they cannot interfere with those UK negotiated deals. Especially the Commonwealth which has preferential deals for its members including us. The EU cannot interfere there either.

So we are left with the EU itself. A declining trading force now down from 30% to some 16.5% of world trade. It is EU countries that trade with us not the EU. They just play politics. And those EU countries earn an extra £61 Bn a year from us than we earn from them. That alone is 61 Bn reasons why they will cut a deal. It may well not be a Tariff free deal but then we do not have such a deal IN the EU. And it will not be a 10% sort of deal and we will NEVER agree to any Norway / Swiss type of deal. And for 2 years we carry on as now but can unshackle ourselves from the ECJ, more regulations and Directives and immediately stop unfettered immigration. Something that the British people now say is THE most important matter to be resolved.

If the EU want to shoot themselves in the foot then fine. But they won't. Germany won't let them.

The conservative led British government will put

Trade first

Freedom of movement second

EU laws and regulations third

Everything else way down the list when negotiating a deal

trade will win over everything else ... so a Norway type deal is what we will receive ..get real british business pays for the tory party .dont be fooled into thinking the version of out will be the dreamy version as depicted by the brexit campaign ..."

I think your conclusion is right. If we leave we will probably end up eventually with a deal something like Norway or Switzerland (which is a lot worse than the deal we currently have). However I doubt it would make much difference whether it was a Conservative, Labour or any other government, including a UKIP one. Once the reality of the true trading strength of the EU (which takes about half our exports) and the UK (which takes about 1 tenth of EU exports) is realised the best deal available will be taken and that will be something like Norway or Switzerland.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


" Point 2 nearly 50% of our exports goes to the EU.

Percentages are far less important than values when you talk trade Old Son. And the real numbers are that the EU makes £61 Bn a year profit out of the UK. It also takes £13.2 Bn average off us every year. Plus all the Millions we send to Poland and Hungary and wherever keeping young mothers in the style of life to which they have become accustomed on British Child Benefit.

So in real hard cash money the EU costs the UK taxpayer over £74 Bn a year. Oh wait I guess you didn't realise we have to borrow money to fund a trade deficit?

The EU will do a deal or lose a shedload of money. We are NOT Norway that NEEDS the EU export market. Where is our national need in giving £61 Bn away in an unbalanced trade?

I guess the £140 bn or so that we sell in goods to the EU each year doesn't matter then to people who deal in net figures. After all it's only people's jobs and livelihoods at stake in the UK while Brexiters play billy big bollocks with your unnecessary trade war threats.

That won't change much.... screen save this and come back to me in 2 yrs if you're still on here. We sell far more to China. ..India. ..and America than to Europe. .. they even tax us on what we sell there...now thats a free European market isn't it?"

It's not clear what you mean by "they even tax us on what we sell there". Are you saying that the EU taxes the UK on its exports to China, the USA and India? That is wrong, isn't it?.

Other than that, if you are right then you'll have to tell the ONS that they've got the UK's export figures wrong . Our goods exports for 2015 to China, India and the USA are about half the value of the UK's goods exports to the EU.

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By *nleashedCrakenMan
over a year ago

Widnes


" Point one its a proposal from brexit ..nothin brexit proposes has any validity ..

Oh right. So the British people who are now turning their backs in substantial numbers on Project Fear and the utter bollocks being poured out by the Remain side have no validity?

Do tell us what 'validity' that £4,300 figure Osborne said we would all lose on Brexit now has? Totally discredited just like the 'leaflet' that cost us all £9 Mn. And YOU have the nerve to talk about 'validity'?"

The £4,300 figure is based on the protected reduction in GDP post BREXIT divided by the number of households. It does have some validity but, if not understood, could also be misleading. The drop in GDP that the £4,3000 is based on is an average, not a best ot worse case; so it could be more or less. It's also per household, not per person. Finally a drop of £4,300 per household in GDP would not necessarily lead a drop in household income of the same amount but more likely a figure between 1/4 to 1/3. So actually about £1,000+ per household. All that information is available and, if you can make the effort, quite easily worked out.

However BREXIT still cling to the lie that we pay and can save £350 million a day to the EU when we actually pay closer to £250 million a day and could only save about £150 million a day because about £100 million a day from the £250 million is already being spent here.

If BREXIT can't tell the truth on that simple fact how can anyone trust anything they say at all.

Then there is the BREXIT lie on immigration. BREXIT claim that by treating EU citizens the same as non EU citizens they will be able to reduce immigration. What they don't tell you is that over 1/2 of immigration into Britain is currently from non EU countries. Of the half that are from EU countries they don't tell you how many are actually British people returning from living or working in the EU; some estimates put that figure at 50% of EU migration. They also don't tell you how many are Irish nationals who have the historic right to live and work in the UK whether we're in the EU or not; that figure is actually about 25% of EU migration. So what they don't tell you is that if we left the EU and stopped completely all immigration into the UK from the EU (which wouldn't really be possible) most immigrants (75%) would probably not be affected and we would still have the same problems we have now.

BREXIT is not misleading the British people, it's simply lying to them and then smears anyone who is brave enough to stand up to then as either un patriotic, an EU stooge or a vested interest. They never, ever actually address the points those people make. This could well be the biggest political con trick ever perpetrated on the British people.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


" Point one its a proposal from brexit ..nothin brexit proposes has any validity ..

Oh right. So the British people who are now turning their backs in substantial numbers on Project Fear and the utter bollocks being poured out by the Remain side have no validity?

Do tell us what 'validity' that £4,300 figure Osborne said we would all lose on Brexit now has? Totally discredited just like the 'leaflet' that cost us all £9 Mn. And YOU have the nerve to talk about 'validity'?

The £4,300 figure is based on the protected reduction in GDP post BREXIT divided by the number of households. It does have some validity but, if not understood, could also be misleading. The drop in GDP that the £4,3000 is based on is an average, not a best ot worse case; so it could be more or less. It's also per household, not per person. Finally a drop of £4,300 per household in GDP would not necessarily lead a drop in household income of the same amount but more likely a figure between 1/4 to 1/3. So actually about £1,000+ per household. All that information is available and, if you can make the effort, quite easily worked out.

However BREXIT still cling to the lie that we pay and can save £350 million a day to the EU when we actually pay closer to £250 million a day and could only save about £150 million a day because about £100 million a day from the £250 million is already being spent here.

If BREXIT can't tell the truth on that simple fact how can anyone trust anything they say at all.

Then there is the BREXIT lie on immigration. BREXIT claim that by treating EU citizens the same as non EU citizens they will be able to reduce immigration. What they don't tell you is that over 1/2 of immigration into Britain is currently from non EU countries. Of the half that are from EU countries they don't tell you how many are actually British people returning from living or working in the EU; some estimates put that figure at 50% of EU migration. They also don't tell you how many are Irish nationals who have the historic right to live and work in the UK whether we're in the EU or not; that figure is actually about 25% of EU migration. So what they don't tell you is that if we left the EU and stopped completely all immigration into the UK from the EU (which wouldn't really be possible) most immigrants (75%) would probably not be affected and we would still have the same problems we have now.

BREXIT is not misleading the British people, it's simply lying to them and then smears anyone who is brave enough to stand up to then as either un patriotic, an EU stooge or a vested interest. They never, ever actually address the points those people make. This could well be the biggest political con trick ever perpetrated on the British people. "

Con trick? Give us one FACT why the UK will be better off financially in the EU. One

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By *horehouse OP   Couple
over a year ago

dissatisfied


" Point one its a proposal from brexit ..nothin brexit proposes has any validity ..

Oh right. So the British people who are now turning their backs in substantial numbers on Project Fear and the utter bollocks being poured out by the Remain side have no validity?

Do tell us what 'validity' that £4,300 figure Osborne said we would all lose on Brexit now has? Totally discredited just like the 'leaflet' that cost us all £9 Mn. And YOU have the nerve to talk about 'validity'?

The £4,300 figure is based on the protected reduction in GDP post BREXIT divided by the number of households. It does have some validity but, if not understood, could also be misleading. The drop in GDP that the £4,3000 is based on is an average, not a best ot worse case; so it could be more or less. It's also per household, not per person. Finally a drop of £4,300 per household in GDP would not necessarily lead a drop in household income of the same amount but more likely a figure between 1/4 to 1/3. So actually about £1,000+ per household. All that information is available and, if you can make the effort, quite easily worked out.

However BREXIT still cling to the lie that we pay and can save £350 million a day to the EU when we actually pay closer to £250 million a day and could only save about £150 million a day because about £100 million a day from the £250 million is already being spent here.

If BREXIT can't tell the truth on that simple fact how can anyone trust anything they say at all.

Then there is the BREXIT lie on immigration. BREXIT claim that by treating EU citizens the same as non EU citizens they will be able to reduce immigration. What they don't tell you is that over 1/2 of immigration into Britain is currently from non EU countries. Of the half that are from EU countries they don't tell you how many are actually British people returning from living or working in the EU; some estimates put that figure at 50% of EU migration. They also don't tell you how many are Irish nationals who have the historic right to live and work in the UK whether we're in the EU or not; that figure is actually about 25% of EU migration. So what they don't tell you is that if we left the EU and stopped completely all immigration into the UK from the EU (which wouldn't really be possible) most immigrants (75%) would probably not be affected and we would still have the same problems we have now.

BREXIT is not misleading the British people, it's simply lying to them and then smears anyone who is brave enough to stand up to then as either un patriotic, an EU stooge or a vested interest. They never, ever actually address the points those people make. This could well be the biggest political con trick ever perpetrated on the British people.

Con trick? Give us one FACT why the UK will be better off financially in the EU. One "

Give it a fucking rest even the out campaign have suspended campaigning for the day in respect of Jo cox

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


" Point one its a proposal from brexit ..nothin brexit proposes has any validity ..

Oh right. So the British people who are now turning their backs in substantial numbers on Project Fear and the utter bollocks being poured out by the Remain side have no validity?

Do tell us what 'validity' that £4,300 figure Osborne said we would all lose on Brexit now has? Totally discredited just like the 'leaflet' that cost us all £9 Mn. And YOU have the nerve to talk about 'validity'?

The £4,300 figure is based on the protected reduction in GDP post BREXIT divided by the number of households. It does have some validity but, if not understood, could also be misleading. The drop in GDP that the £4,3000 is based on is an average, not a best ot worse case; so it could be more or less. It's also per household, not per person. Finally a drop of £4,300 per household in GDP would not necessarily lead a drop in household income of the same amount but more likely a figure between 1/4 to 1/3. So actually about £1,000+ per household. All that information is available and, if you can make the effort, quite easily worked out.

However BREXIT still cling to the lie that we pay and can save £350 million a day to the EU when we actually pay closer to £250 million a day and could only save about £150 million a day because about £100 million a day from the £250 million is already being spent here.

If BREXIT can't tell the truth on that simple fact how can anyone trust anything they say at all.

Then there is the BREXIT lie on immigration. BREXIT claim that by treating EU citizens the same as non EU citizens they will be able to reduce immigration. What they don't tell you is that over 1/2 of immigration into Britain is currently from non EU countries. Of the half that are from EU countries they don't tell you how many are actually British people returning from living or working in the EU; some estimates put that figure at 50% of EU migration. They also don't tell you how many are Irish nationals who have the historic right to live and work in the UK whether we're in the EU or not; that figure is actually about 25% of EU migration. So what they don't tell you is that if we left the EU and stopped completely all immigration into the UK from the EU (which wouldn't really be possible) most immigrants (75%) would probably not be affected and we would still have the same problems we have now.

BREXIT is not misleading the British people, it's simply lying to them and then smears anyone who is brave enough to stand up to then as either un patriotic, an EU stooge or a vested interest. They never, ever actually address the points those people make. This could well be the biggest political con trick ever perpetrated on the British people.

Con trick? Give us one FACT why the UK will be better off financially in the EU. One

Give it a fucking rest even the out campaign have suspended campaigning for the day in respect of Jo cox "

so what did you say that for?

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By *nleashedCrakenMan
over a year ago

Widnes


"

The immigration argument. "Fuck off, we are full" ..... But we are not making an immigration vote are we? We are voting whether or not to stay in a European community where somewhere between 2,000,000 and 2,500,000 Brits have made their home and conveniently (and fortunately) labelled themselves as expats rather than immigrants. Lucky really, as many are ageing, infirm and a great liability to the host nations health service. But I digress.

You realise that all those old retired "expats/immigrants" in spains medical bills are charged back to the uk right?

Cause thats a pretty big digression otherwise

"

And do you realise that exactly the same thing applies to EU citizens using our NHS.

The reality is is that all migrants generally bring more economic benefit to their host country than costs. The other reality is that, especially when times are difficult, people tend to blame migrants and believe that they are a drain on resources. Spain is going through a much tougher time than we here in Britain are and many Spanish people do believe that Northern European elderly migrants, especially Brits, are a drain on their resources. If you don't know this then I would suggest that you stop talking to your Spanish friends and spend time talking to Spanish people who are not your friends.

If we believe migration is bad for Britain when it actually isn't why should the Spanish be any different.

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By *ranny-CrumpetWoman
over a year ago

The Town by The Cross

Uhmmmmmmm I choose thick.

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By *nleashedCrakenMan
over a year ago

Widnes


"i think it was more interesting in the polls today that those who vote remain are more likley to looked at all the evidence.. and those who are intending to vote leave don't believe anything anyone is saying......experts and all

which does may me wonder what is the point of anyone saying anything"

It's the undecideds; they are the only ones that count really. I don't argue and discuss with BREXITers to try and convert them but to counter their arguments and hopefully persuade the undecided towards BREMAIN.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"i think it was more interesting in the polls today that those who vote remain are more likley to looked at all the evidence.. and those who are intending to vote leave don't believe anything anyone is saying......experts and all

which does may me wonder what is the point of anyone saying anything

It's the undecideds; they are the only ones that count really. I don't argue and discuss with BREXITers to try and convert them but to counter their arguments and hopefully persuade the undecided towards BREMAIN."

well like everyone on the Bremain side you should have kept your mouth shut then because all it has done is persuade more to leave. Oops what am I saying

carry on

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By *nleashedCrakenMan
over a year ago

Widnes


"What really worry's me is what are you guys going to argue over when the referendum is over "

If the vote is Remain then we'll probably argue about whether the campaign was fair or not. BREXIT will probably complain about the government having issued a document costing £9 million to let the people know what the government's official policy is. Their already laying the ground work.

If we vote leave then the argument will be about what sort of leave leave actually is. I'm putting my money on us eventually ending up with a Norway type deal.

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By *nleashedCrakenMan
over a year ago

Widnes


" Point one its a proposal from brexit ..nothin brexit proposes has any validity ..

Oh right. So the British people who are now turning their backs in substantial numbers on Project Fear and the utter bollocks being poured out by the Remain side have no validity?

"

I hope they do see through project fear because the real project fear is the BREXIT project fear: Fear that 75 million Turks are going to join the EU and come to Britain. It's not true. Fear that Britain will be sucked in a United States of Europe. It's not true. Fear that EU migrants are swamping the UK. It's not true, Fear that the UK will be forced to join the Euro. It's not true. The real project fear is the from BREXIT not BREMAIN.


"

Do tell us what 'validity' that £4,300 figure Osborne said we would all lose on Brexit now has? Totally discredited just like the 'leaflet' that cost us all £9 Mn. And YOU have the nerve to talk about 'validity'?"

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By *rinking-in-laCouple
over a year ago

Bristol


"Now about we knock this on the head for the day guys out of respect for Jo Cox MP like someone asked for on the other threads.

How does that help her or anyone?

These debates need to happen.

They do. Just not today ..."

Why not? Who is harmed?

If you don't like it, don't take part. But don't tell people what they may or may not do.

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By *nleashedCrakenMan
over a year ago

Widnes


" Point 2 nearly 50% of our exports goes to the EU.

Percentages are far less important than values when you talk trade Old Son.

"

That's total economic rubbish. Trade volumes are way more important than any deficit or surplus amount. About 50% of our exports go to the EU, about 10% of the EU exports come to the UK. Any drop in that volume of trade will have 5 times the effect on us than it will on the EU.


"And the real numbers are that the EU makes £61 Bn a year profit out of the UK. It also takes £13.2 Bn average off us every year. Plus all the Millions we send to Poland and Hungary and wherever keeping young mothers in the style of life to which they have become accustomed on British Child Benefit.

"

It's not EU law that said we had to send child support to EU citizens with children living outside the UK, it's British law. Only one other country in the EU (I think it's Demark) actually does this. If it was EU law they all would.


"

So in real hard cash money the EU costs the UK taxpayer over £74 Bn a year. Oh wait I guess you didn't realise we have to borrow money to fund a trade deficit?

"

Is it just impossible for BREXIT to tell the truth on anything. You cannot add the £13 billion figure to the £61 billion because we get £5 billion back. You could argue that we don't control it but, unless you're willing to say whom who is currently getting it is not going to get it any longer, you can not save it. The real figure is closer to £8 billion a year. That brings your figure down to £69 billion.


"

The EU will do a deal or lose a shedload of money. We are NOT Norway that NEEDS the EU export market. Where is our national need in giving £61 Bn away in an unbalanced trade?"

If BREXIT are willing to risk wrecking the British economy to leave for no real benefit at all what makes you think the Germans and French won't be willing to damage theirs to stop others from doing the same?

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By *LCCCouple
over a year ago

Cambridge

If we vote to leave, the remaining members will punish us to stop any other country thinking about leaving.

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By *horehouse OP   Couple
over a year ago

dissatisfied


"If we vote to leave, the remaining members will punish us to stop any other country thinking about leaving. "

Now that sounds like common sense.....shame the brexiters wont believe it

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By *LCCCouple
over a year ago

Cambridge


"If we vote to leave, the remaining members will punish us to stop any other country thinking about leaving.

Now that sounds like common sense.....shame the brexiters wont believe it "

The idea that we will leave, stop paying into it, get a better trade deal, and stop free movement of labour is just naive in the extreme.

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By *nleashedCrakenMan
over a year ago

Widnes

As a mark of respect to Jo Cox - RIP I'm not making any more contributions to this or other politically controversial threads for the time being.

I suggest we all do the same.

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By *rinking-in-laCouple
over a year ago

Bristol


"As a mark of respect to Jo Cox - RIP I'm not making any more contributions to this or other politically controversial threads for the time being.

I suggest we all do the same."

Fair enough. But there is no reason for people not to have a perfectly reasonable debate.

What happened was very sad, but why should we further defeat the ends of democracy?

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By *icketysplitsWoman
over a year ago

Way over Yonder, that's where I'm bound


"As a mark of respect to Jo Cox - RIP I'm not making any more contributions to this or other politically controversial threads for the time being.

I suggest we all do the same.

Fair enough. But there is no reason for people not to have a perfectly reasonable debate.

What happened was very sad, but why should we further defeat the ends of democracy?"

The debates haven't been reasonable though. That's why.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"Why do many people voting in the referendum believe that after a vote to leave we will no longer be part of the EU ..on the 24th ..when in fact it could be many years after the referendum before our exit from the EU .whichever way the vote goes on the 24 th we will still be a member of the EU ..until the Tory government has negotiated otherwise .....

the eu laws dictate that its has to be a 2year process of leaving the eu at least in order to negotiate a deal.

there are many types of eu memberships and nonmembership trade deals that are really complex. out of all the european trade agreements with european nations all have had to have freedom movmement principle.

canada is looking to upgrade their status currently they have an SPA and are certa members but not full eu members.

A 2 year minimum on membership.

Everything can be extended temp while things are worked out.

I honestly find it bizzare that people think with the lively hood of hundreds of millions, incalculable amounts of money and the fate of entire nations economies at stake the negotiators are going to resort to what you'd expect from school children.

they will work something out there is a lot of money at steak. Plus britan need an eu trade deal. The eu does but less so me thinks."

Eu expoets more to us than we do to them

So tarrifs will hurt them more than us.

Think of it like we're the customer they're the shop.

We both need each other vut its usualy easier to find another shop than it is to find new customers.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"As a mark of respect to Jo Cox - RIP I'm not making any more contributions to this or other politically controversial threads for the time being.

I suggest we all do the same."

Motive still hasn't even been firmly established yet so this seems a strange stance.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"If we vote to leave, the remaining members will punish us to stop any other country thinking about leaving.

Now that sounds like common sense.....shame the brexiters wont believe it "

No that sounds utterly stupid.do you thin business lobbists will happilly lose hundreds of billions becuase you think that countries are run by 6 year olds?

Of course not.

The main delaying factor in negotiations with the EU on trade is the harmonising of regulations, we dont have that issue 100% of our regs are the same and equal.

Punishing the uk would be incredibly dangerous for thr rest of the EU because they make up the eurozone now huge losses to thier industries and tarrifs along with the uncertainty of negotiation could tank the euro and be very bad for the southern states and end in bail outs or even forced withdrawls and defaults to protect the currency.

They arent going to let that happen.

Hundreds to thousands of people will be involved in these negotiations and deals dorectly and indirectly.

You seriously think that they are going to resort to such childishness?

If anything doing so would not scare countries into staying it would make them want to leave, i don't know about you but a political organisation that acted that way is not one i would want my country to be a member of.

One that affected my company or busines or livleyhood over childish spite.

Common sense dictates the least disruptive, most economically safe and stable option will be taken, not cutting thier own nose off.

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By *otlovefun42Couple
over a year ago

Costa Blanca Spain...


"As a mark of respect to Jo Cox - RIP I'm not making any more contributions to this or other politically controversial threads for the time being.

I suggest we all do the same."

Absolutely.

Both vote leave and remain have suspended their campaigns and I think we should take a lead from that.

Nothing more from me for a while.

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By *arry247Couple
over a year ago

Wakefield


"

Who outside of Europe has free trade within the EU? And even the non EU European countries pay the price for free trade "

The EU has free trade agreements with the following countries/states. There are 19 other countries/states where free trade has been provisionally agreed.

Akrotiri and Dhekelia, Albania, Algeria, Andorra, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Chile, Egypt, Faroe Islands, Bailiwick of Guernsey, Iceland, Isle of Man, Israel, Bailiwick of Jersey, Jordan, Kosovo, Lebanon, Liechtenstein, Republic of Macedonia, Mexico, Monaco, Montenegro, Morocco, Norway, Palestinian Authority, San Marino, Serbia, South Africa, South Korea, Switzerland, Tunisia, Turkey

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By *arry247Couple
over a year ago

Wakefield


"If we vote to leave, the remaining members will punish us to stop any other country thinking about leaving. "

Except under World Trade Organisation rules they cannot.

Such claims are simply another part of project fear

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By *LCCCouple
over a year ago

Cambridge


"If we vote to leave, the remaining members will punish us to stop any other country thinking about leaving.

Now that sounds like common sense.....shame the brexiters wont believe it

No that sounds utterly stupid.do you thin business lobbists will happilly lose hundreds of billions becuase you think that countries are run by 6 year olds?

Of course not.

The main delaying factor in negotiations with the EU on trade is the harmonising of regulations, we dont have that issue 100% of our regs are the same and equal.

Punishing the uk would be incredibly dangerous for thr rest of the EU because they make up the eurozone now huge losses to thier industries and tarrifs along with the uncertainty of negotiation could tank the euro and be very bad for the southern states and end in bail outs or even forced withdrawls and defaults to protect the currency.

They arent going to let that happen.

Hundreds to thousands of people will be involved in these negotiations and deals dorectly and indirectly.

You seriously think that they are going to resort to such childishness?

If anything doing so would not scare countries into staying it would make them want to leave, i don't know about you but a political organisation that acted that way is not one i would want my country to be a member of.

One that affected my company or busines or livleyhood over childish spite.

Common sense dictates the least disruptive, most economically safe and stable option will be taken, not cutting thier own nose off."

If Scotland had voted to leave the UK exactly the same thing would have happened.

Also it's not just businesses, but individual consumers across the whole of the EU. I'm sure a sizable amount will turn their backs on buying British if we vote to leave.

Another poster compared it to a shop and a customer. A shop wants in general to keep all of its customers happy, but losing one customer doesn't really effect the shop, where as it could be hugely inconvenient and expensive for the customer, especially if they were previously getting a special rate that they have now turned their nose up at.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"If we vote to leave, the remaining members will punish us to stop any other country thinking about leaving.

Now that sounds like common sense.....shame the brexiters wont believe it

No that sounds utterly stupid.do you thin business lobbists will happilly lose hundreds of billions becuase you think that countries are run by 6 year olds?

Of course not.

The main delaying factor in negotiations with the EU on trade is the harmonising of regulations, we dont have that issue 100% of our regs are the same and equal.

Punishing the uk would be incredibly dangerous for thr rest of the EU because they make up the eurozone now huge losses to thier industries and tarrifs along with the uncertainty of negotiation could tank the euro and be very bad for the southern states and end in bail outs or even forced withdrawls and defaults to protect the currency.

They arent going to let that happen.

Hundreds to thousands of people will be involved in these negotiations and deals dorectly and indirectly.

You seriously think that they are going to resort to such childishness?

If anything doing so would not scare countries into staying it would make them want to leave, i don't know about you but a political organisation that acted that way is not one i would want my country to be a member of.

One that affected my company or busines or livleyhood over childish spite.

Common sense dictates the least disruptive, most economically safe and stable option will be taken, not cutting thier own nose off.

If Scotland had voted to leave the UK exactly the same thing would have happened.

Also it's not just businesses, but individual consumers across the whole of the EU. I'm sure a sizable amount will turn their backs on buying British if we vote to leave.

Another poster compared it to a shop and a customer. A shop wants in general to keep all of its customers happy, but losing one customer doesn't really effect the shop, where as it could be hugely inconvenient and expensive for the customer, especially if they were previously getting a special rate that they have now turned their nose up at."

interesting but many shops & restaurant's rely on word of mouth, if the quality and service they provide drops they vastly lose customers and the business can fail

it works two ways

and today it looks like word of mouth is spreading

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By *rinking-in-laCouple
over a year ago

Bristol


"As a mark of respect to Jo Cox - RIP I'm not making any more contributions to this or other politically controversial threads for the time being.

I suggest we all do the same.

Fair enough. But there is no reason for people not to have a perfectly reasonable debate.

What happened was very sad, but why should we further defeat the ends of democracy?

The debates haven't been reasonable though. That's why."

That's your decision not others.

And why should people only discuss things in one specific way because something totally unconnected but very sad happened?

How does that show respect?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"If we vote to leave, the remaining members will punish us to stop any other country thinking about leaving.

Now that sounds like common sense.....shame the brexiters wont believe it

No that sounds utterly stupid.do you thin business lobbists will happilly lose hundreds of billions becuase you think that countries are run by 6 year olds?

Of course not.

The main delaying factor in negotiations with the EU on trade is the harmonising of regulations, we dont have that issue 100% of our regs are the same and equal.

Punishing the uk would be incredibly dangerous for thr rest of the EU because they make up the eurozone now huge losses to thier industries and tarrifs along with the uncertainty of negotiation could tank the euro and be very bad for the southern states and end in bail outs or even forced withdrawls and defaults to protect the currency.

They arent going to let that happen.

Hundreds to thousands of people will be involved in these negotiations and deals dorectly and indirectly.

You seriously think that they are going to resort to such childishness?

If anything doing so would not scare countries into staying it would make them want to leave, i don't know about you but a political organisation that acted that way is not one i would want my country to be a member of.

One that affected my company or busines or livleyhood over childish spite.

Common sense dictates the least disruptive, most economically safe and stable option will be taken, not cutting thier own nose off.

If Scotland had voted to leave the UK exactly the same thing would have happened.

Also it's not just businesses, but individual consumers across the whole of the EU. I'm sure a sizable amount will turn their backs on buying British if we vote to leave.

Another poster compared it to a shop and a customer. A shop wants in general to keep all of its customers happy, but losing one customer doesn't really effect the shop, where as it could be hugely inconvenient and expensive for the customer, especially if they were previously getting a special rate that they have now turned their nose up at."

Yes that other poster was me.

We buy a huge amount from the EU, we also donate a big chunk of thier running costs.

Now you say loosing one customer doesn't matter but it is hugoey expensive finding a new shop its really not.

There's lots of countries selling things we need. (People complain about us importing Chinese steel, the ampunt of steel we import from germany alone makes our steel trade with china look tiny)

And our services sell very well less and less to the EU though and more and more to the rest of the world.

So we are much more flexible to negotiate good deals on services something that is very difficult in the EU.

Also as the other poster mentioned a punishment tarrif rate would have the WTO come down on the EU like a ton of bricks.

Interestingly thst would be a WTO with Britain having a seat on it.

But yes the notion a huge group of companies will nake a childish deal to strike fear into other countries is silly.

Or if you genuinly belive that why in all holy hell do you want to be a member of such an abhorrent group?

Seriously? Would you sign up for membership of a swingers club that if somone left they would post revealing pictures of them online as punishment to scare the rest of you into not leaving?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"If we vote to leave, the remaining members will punish us to stop any other country thinking about leaving.

"

There are already a good few countries thinking of leaving, do you honestly think if we will leave, no other country will follow

If we Leave, others will follow and the EU will crumble further than it already has

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"If we vote to leave, the remaining members will punish us to stop any other country thinking about leaving.

There are already a good few countries thinking of leaving, do you honestly think if we will leave, no other country will follow

If we Leave, others will follow and the EU will crumble further than it already has"

Whats going to be interesting is the article 7 action against poland thats comming up soon.

They've already warned hungry and look set to remove polands right to vote on EU matters, hungry have said they'd block this and any sanctions

So they may have to try and sanction both countries at once (you arent alowed to vote in your own punishment vote)

Now that will push many leave campaigns forward hugely.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"If we vote to leave, the remaining members will punish us to stop any other country thinking about leaving.

There are already a good few countries thinking of leaving, do you honestly think if we will leave, no other country will follow

If we Leave, others will follow and the EU will crumble further than it already has

Whats going to be interesting is the article 7 action against poland thats comming up soon.

They've already warned hungry and look set to remove polands right to vote on EU matters, hungry have said they'd block this and any sanctions

So they may have to try and sanction both countries at once (you arent alowed to vote in your own punishment vote)

Now that will push many leave campaigns forward hugely.

"

Im just glad im not a young kid in todays world

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Not read any of the thread so dont know if its been said but.

Why is everyone who disagrees with anyone now classed has Thick. I see it all the time on different forums these days.

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By *LCCCouple
over a year ago

Cambridge


"

But yes the notion a huge group of companies will nake a childish deal to strike fear into other countries is silly.

Or if you genuinly belive that why in all holy hell do you want to be a member of such an abhorrent group?

Seriously? Would you sign up for membership of a swingers club that if somone left they would post revealing pictures of them online as punishment to scare the rest of you into not leaving?

"

Try thinking about it like this, my wife loves me a lot, but if I divorced her, she would be pretty pissed off and probably wouldn't want to be that nice to me. The EU wont be any different, the same as the English would have been very resentful if Scotland had voted for independence.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"If we vote to leave, the remaining members will punish us to stop any other country thinking about leaving.

There are already a good few countries thinking of leaving, do you honestly think if we will leave, no other country will follow

If we Leave, others will follow and the EU will crumble further than it already has

Whats going to be interesting is the article 7 action against poland thats comming up soon.

They've already warned hungry and look set to remove polands right to vote on EU matters, hungry have said they'd block this and any sanctions

So they may have to try and sanction both countries at once (you arent alowed to vote in your own punishment vote)

Now that will push many leave campaigns forward hugely.

Im just glad im not a young kid in todays world"

I think mine and the nex generation at least are going to be lost generations.

Tbh im probbaly going to try an hold of having kids as long as possibe at this rate and see if things improve

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"

But yes the notion a huge group of companies will nake a childish deal to strike fear into other countries is silly.

Or if you genuinly belive that why in all holy hell do you want to be a member of such an abhorrent group?

Seriously? Would you sign up for membership of a swingers club that if somone left they would post revealing pictures of them online as punishment to scare the rest of you into not leaving?

Try thinking about it like this, my wife loves me a lot, but if I divorced her, she would be pretty pissed off and probably wouldn't want to be that nice to me. The EU wont be any different, the same as the English would have been very resentful if Scotland had voted for independence."

Yes the EU is not your wife.

The eu is not going to waste a shit ton of money acting like a spoiled child.

Its such an insane view point, also why the hell would you want to be in that group if thats how they treat people?

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By *nleashedCrakenMan
over a year ago

Widnes


"

But yes the notion a huge group of companies will nake a childish deal to strike fear into other countries is silly.

Or if you genuinly belive that why in all holy hell do you want to be a member of such an abhorrent group?

Seriously? Would you sign up for membership of a swingers club that if somone left they would post revealing pictures of them online as punishment to scare the rest of you into not leaving?

Try thinking about it like this, my wife loves me a lot, but if I divorced her, she would be pretty pissed off and probably wouldn't want to be that nice to me. The EU wont be any different, the same as the English would have been very resentful if Scotland had voted for independence.

Yes the EU is not your wife.

The eu is not going to waste a shit ton of money acting like a spoiled child.

Its such an insane view point, also why the hell would you want to be in that group if thats how they treat people?"

All the available evidence suggests that leaving the EU will be at best slightly better for the UK economy and at worst a lot worse. If BREXIT are willing to put the economic future of the UK at risk to destroy the EU why do they think Germany and France won't be willing to take a much smaller hit to their economies in order to save it?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"Also as the other poster mentioned a punishment tarrif rate would have the WTO come down on the EU like a ton of bricks.

"

That overstates the speed and weight of the WTO dispute resolution process by about 999.9 kg. It also leads you into a sacrifice of sovereignty - one of their basic principles is that "Members shall not themselves make determinations of violations or suspend concessions, but shall make use of the dispute settlement rules and procedures of the DSU".

If the UK raises a dispute against the EU and can't resolve it by discussion within 30 days, it can ask the WTO to set up a dispute settlement panel to judge who is right or wrong. That panel will have 3 judges, none of whom will be British or from an EU state.

They can take 6 months to take evidence and think about it (3 months if they believe it's urgent). When they come to a decision it can be appealed, which again can take months. If the appeal came out in favour of the UK the sanctions would be compensation and/or being allowed to take trade sanctions against the EU but only in the same area of tariffs as the original complaint.

To get the full weight of the WTO behind you, you'll be happy to give up control of our trade agreements with the EU to a body of faceless bureaucrats in Geneva that could appoint an Argentinian, a South Korean and an American to judge on the case (substitute any 3 non-UK nationalities you like there). Oh and then you need about a year to spare to take each dispute through the WTO process.

Rather than having control over our trading relationship with the EU because we are at the negotiating table with them, you'd rather envision trade wars and give up control of disputes to an arbitrary collection of foreign governments from outside Europe.

We don't need that extra level of outside intervention, bureaucracy and delay that Brexit would cause unnecessarily.

Sensible people with Britain's interests at heart would rather keep control of the existing EU trading relationship than give it up to the WTO thanks very much.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"

All the available evidence suggests that leaving the EU will be at best slightly better for the UK economy and at worst a lot worse. If BREXIT are willing to put the economic future of the UK at risk to destroy the EU why do they think Germany and France won't be willing to take a much smaller hit to their economies in order to save it?"

And what is to say they will not follow the UK's example and also exit the EU along with many other countries, truth is neither you or I know what will happen, but it is far better to get out now, before Brussels unleashes new rules & guidelines

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Stay

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

LEAVE / EXIT

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By *nleashedCrakenMan
over a year ago

Widnes

BREXIT - hear no truth

BREXIT - see no truth

BREXIT - speak no truth

If BREXIT truly believed their case they wouldn't keep lying to the British people. They have lied about the amount we pay, they have lied about the level of EU migration to the EU, they have lied about Turkey becoming a member of the EU.

I don't know if they're lying about what they believe the French and Germans will do with regard to trade negotiations but it seems to me to be naive in the extreme to imagine that they will give us for nothing what we currently pay for and which no one else in the world gets for nothing. So are they naive or is it just another made up BREXIT lie? Either way, I won't be trusting them with the future of this nation.

VOTE REMAIN.

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