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"In an open letter in The Sun newspaper today Labour MP John Mann comes out to support Brexit. He wants Britain to leave the EU and urges Labour voters to vote Leave on June 23rd. " that is good news, the politician said too few Labour MPs were in favour of Brexit - and warned the party is "going to get a big shock across the country" when referendum votes are counted. the ITV debate last night was also good news for the leave campaign ITV/STV Debate watched it last night and its one of the first more controlled without constant shouting and squabbling over each other It did however convince me to tear up my SNP membership as I can no longer support Nicola Sturgeon, Andrea Leadsom was the overall star of the show, she was calm, collective and spot on with her arguments . Gisela Stuart; agreeably the most knowledgeable on the show with a vast of EU Knowledge . Boris; as much as people dislike him, he done well and got his points across without attacking the remain campaign in retaliation for constant attacks from them. . Angela Eagle; she was the worst on the show, far too nervous, bundling her words and taking far too long to construct a sentence, she gave a very poor show . Nicola Sturgeon: bla bla Scotland, bla bla Independence, think she is still reliving the last referendum . Amber Rudd; constant attack on Borris which did not come done well as others tried to produce an agreement rather than attack On a whole the Leave side came across far better on this debate and this was simply down to Gisela Stuart and the star of the show Andrea Leadsom | |||
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"JOHN MANN!!??" Yes if you remember he was the Labour MP who had a blazing public row confronting Ken Livingston live on telly about the anti semitic comments Ken Livingston made a few weeks ago. | |||
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"JOHN MANN!!?? Yes if you remember he was the Labour MP who had a blazing public row confronting Ken Livingston live on telly about the anti semitic comments Ken Livingston made a few weeks ago. " Yes, a somewhat self-promoting individual, who resorts to insults and shouting, rather than using reason to debate. He may have been right about Ken, but losing the plot in a public rant was not too clever. | |||
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"Dennis skinner has apparentley let it be known that he will be voting to leave " I think there could be more Labour people waiting in the wings to come out in favour of Brexit. Micheal Gove wrote a piece in The Sun newspaper a few weeks ago saying "we've got some surprise players waiting on the Leave campaign subs bench who we will reveal at the right time". Maybe John Mann was one of them so I'm wondering who else may throw up some surprises? | |||
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"JOHN MANN!!?? Yes if you remember he was the Labour MP who had a blazing public row confronting Ken Livingston live on telly about the anti semitic comments Ken Livingston made a few weeks ago. " But JOHN MANN!!! | |||
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"Dennis skinner has apparentley let it be known that he will be voting to leave " I only knew about John Mann backing Brexit but just did a Google search and it's official Labour MP Dennis Skinner is also joining John Mann today in saying he will vote leave on June 23rd. | |||
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"JOHN MANN!!?? Yes if you remember he was the Labour MP who had a blazing public row confronting Ken Livingston live on telly about the anti semitic comments Ken Livingston made a few weeks ago. Yes, a somewhat self-promoting individual, who resorts to insults and shouting, rather than using reason to debate. He may have been right about Ken, but losing the plot in a public rant was not too clever." I think it was Ken who lost the plot in a public rant!!! | |||
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"In an open letter in The Sun newspaper today Labour MP John Mann comes out to support Brexit. He wants Britain to leave the EU and urges Labour voters to vote Leave on June 23rd. " Now, I'm not one to say the papers may be slightly biased in this debate, but it's interesting how Mann and Skinner seem to have had more coverage than 'the whole of the Labour party' coming out for the other side...
Mr ddc | |||
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"In an open letter in The Sun newspaper today Labour MP John Mann comes out to support Brexit. He wants Britain to leave the EU and urges Labour voters to vote Leave on June 23rd. Now, I'm not one to say the papers may be slightly biased in this debate, but it's interesting how Mann and Skinner seem to have had more coverage than 'the whole of the Labour party' coming out for the other side...
Mr ddc"Karma anyone? Maybe it will go some way to counter the deeply unfair £9 million taxpayer funded pro EU propaganda leaflet Cameron and the government sent out to every house in the land. | |||
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"JOHN MANN!!?? Yes if you remember he was the Labour MP who had a blazing public row confronting Ken Livingston live on telly about the anti semitic comments Ken Livingston made a few weeks ago. " Perhaps more famous for his work, prior to the last election, of trying to falsely accuse most of the Tory party of either being paedophiles, or protecting paedophiles. | |||
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"JOHN MANN!!?? Yes if you remember he was the Labour MP who had a blazing public row confronting Ken Livingston live on telly about the anti semitic comments Ken Livingston made a few weeks ago. Perhaps more famous for his work, prior to the last election, of trying to falsely accuse most of the Tory party of either being paedophiles, or protecting paedophiles. " Or maybe for his work as a Trade union representative? | |||
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"JOHN MANN!!?? Yes if you remember he was the Labour MP who had a blazing public row confronting Ken Livingston live on telly about the anti semitic comments Ken Livingston made a few weeks ago. Perhaps more famous for his work, prior to the last election, of trying to falsely accuse most of the Tory party of either being paedophiles, or protecting paedophiles. Or maybe for his work as a Trade union representative? " Nah, that's hardly mentioned 
He has consistently been on the right side of the expenses scandals though, so he's not all bad. | |||
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"But John Mann!!!" ......you forgot Dennis Skinner!!!!  | |||
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"If we can leave Europe and have full control of our immigration AND still be able to trade within the EU without being penalised then I'm all for it, but i cant ever see that happening or being allowed to happen." Of course it will happen. We buy more of their stuff than thy buy of ours. They won't not take our money. | |||
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"I don't care about his motives, I want out and the more that vote that way the better "The more Labour voters Mann and Skinner bring with them the better too.  | |||
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"I don't care about his motives, I want out and the more that vote that way the better
The more Labour voters Mann and Skinner bring with them the better too. "Yes | |||
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"Another nobody on a brexit sinking ship" It's the EU that's a sinking ship that's why we need to leave on June 23rd. | |||
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"If we can leave Europe and have full control of our immigration AND still be able to trade within the EU without being penalised then I'm all for it, but i cant ever see that happening or being allowed to happen." Hasn't that always been the problem with this referendum though? It has been engineered as a pig-in-a-poke in order to increase the chance of a Remain vote. Even I concede that. | |||
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"Another nobody on a brexit sinking ship It's the EU that's a sinking ship that's why we need to leave on June 23rd. " I'm sure the last figures I saw was that EU growth was picking up. In fact if you strip out the effect of immigration from our GDP figures, I think you'll find the underlying trend for our own economy is far from rosy | |||
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"Another nobody on a brexit sinking ship It's the EU that's a sinking ship that's why we need to leave on June 23rd. I'm sure the last figures I saw was that EU growth was picking up. In fact if you strip out the effect of immigration from our GDP figures, I think you'll find the underlying trend for our own economy is far from rosy" The only continent with worse economic growth than the EU over the last 10 years is Antarctica. Also sky high unemployment in Greece, Spain, Italy and Portugal. Greece look likely to need yet another bailout soon. The EU is failing. | |||
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"Another nobody on a brexit sinking ship It's the EU that's a sinking ship that's why we need to leave on June 23rd. I'm sure the last figures I saw was that EU growth was picking up. In fact if you strip out the effect of immigration from our GDP figures, I think you'll find the underlying trend for our own economy is far from rosy The only continent with worse economic growth than the EU over the last 10 years is Antarctica. Also sky high unemployment in Greece, Spain, Italy and Portugal. Greece look likely to need yet another bailout soon. The EU is failing. " Past performance isn't necessarily indicative of future results. We are voting for the future, not the past. Greece had their next bailout a couple of weeks ago, Germany even agreed debt relief if it proves necessary. Unemployment in Spain is terrible, but so is it in parts of the UK. That's why we all pull together, for the common good. (even if that does sound a bit Socialist for me  ) | |||
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"If we can leave Europe and have full control of our immigration AND still be able to trade within the EU without being penalised then I'm all for it, but i cant ever see that happening or being allowed to happen. Of course it will happen. We buy more of their stuff than thy buy of ours. They won't not take our money." Do you really think so ? The main underlying prerequisite for any none EU member to have free trade within the EU is to allow free movement of people in their country from the EU I just dont see the UK being given special treatment | |||
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"Do you really think so ? The main underlying prerequisite for any none EU member to have free trade within the EU is to allow free movement of people in their country from the EU I just dont see the UK being given special treatment " Yes I do. The French will still want us to buyt their apples & cheese, the Germans their cars and so on. They may not want to buy from us but it is a little known fact that they don't buy much from us anyway. The 40 odd % of our exports that go to the EU do not all remain in the EU. It's called the 'Rotterdam Effect.' An unknown quantity then get sent on further afield. Norway and Switzerland have trade agreements with the EU but none of the political stuff we have to put up with. | |||
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"Do you really think so ? The main underlying prerequisite for any none EU member to have free trade within the EU is to allow free movement of people in their country from the EU I just dont see the UK being given special treatment Yes I do. The French will still want us to buyt their apples & cheese, the Germans their cars and so on. They may not want to buy from us but it is a little known fact that they don't buy much from us anyway. The 40 odd % of our exports that go to the EU do not all remain in the EU. It's called the 'Rotterdam Effect.' An unknown quantity then get sent on further afield. Norway and Switzerland have trade agreements with the EU but none of the political stuff we have to put up with." I hope you're right.... Norway and Switzerland still have to allow uncontrolled immigration though to trade with the EU, something that dosent affect them as much due to the much lower benefit system they have ehich reduces the appeal for EU migration there | |||
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"If we can leave Europe and have full control of our immigration AND still be able to trade within the EU without being penalised then I'm all for it, but i cant ever see that happening or being allowed to happen. Of course it will happen. We buy more of their stuff than thy buy of ours. They won't not take our money. Do you really think so ? The main underlying prerequisite for any none EU member to have free trade within the EU is to allow free movement of people in their country from the EU I just dont see the UK being given special treatment " We don't currently get free trade with the EU because we are paying billions every year to access the single market. You could call our EU membership fee a tariff. | |||
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"Do you really think so ? The main underlying prerequisite for any none EU member to have free trade within the EU is to allow free movement of people in their country from the EU I just dont see the UK being given special treatment Yes I do. The French will still want us to buyt their apples & cheese, the Germans their cars and so on. They may not want to buy from us but it is a little known fact that they don't buy much from us anyway. The 40 odd % of our exports that go to the EU do not all remain in the EU. It's called the 'Rotterdam Effect.' An unknown quantity then get sent on further afield. Norway and Switzerland have trade agreements with the EU but none of the political stuff we have to put up with." What political stuff do we have to put up with that is such an affront to UK principles? The U.K. is very good at making up the most ridiculous legislation in the world. Take our tax laws as an example, no EU interference and amongst the most complex on the world. Not forgetting the recent psychoactive substances bill. All the talk of eu politics and legislation that supposedly takes away British democracy is a bit daft really when more people didn't vote for the current government than did and even then the current government can't pass laws without it passing through an unelected House of Lords. | |||
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"If we can leave Europe and have full control of our immigration AND still be able to trade within the EU without being penalised then I'm all for it, but i cant ever see that happening or being allowed to happen. Of course it will happen. We buy more of their stuff than thy buy of ours. They won't not take our money." Trade deals work relative to market size. Our market is 65 million the EU would be 435 million. A perfect example is the Swiss trade deal with China. China has free trade with Switzerland for 15 years before Switzerland can export tariff free into China. It won't happen like that with the EU and UK but anyone thinking that a market of 65 million is going to get a parity deal with a market of 435 million is extremely naive, | |||
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"If we can leave Europe and have full control of our immigration AND still be able to trade within the EU without being penalised then I'm all for it, but i cant ever see that happening or being allowed to happen. Of course it will happen. We buy more of their stuff than thy buy of ours. They won't not take our money. Do you really think so ? The main underlying prerequisite for any none EU member to have free trade within the EU is to allow free movement of people in their country from the EU I just dont see the UK being given special treatment We don't currently get free trade with the EU because we are paying billions every year to access the single market. You could call our EU membership fee a tariff. " The worse case scenario under WTO rules with tariffs would work out to about the same amount we currently pay in EU Membership fees to access the single market, so the costs are neutral. Only outside the single market we can opt out of the free movement of people and regain control of our borders and immigration policy again. We can also remove ourselves from the rouge European Court of Justice (ECJ) and make British courts supreme again, take back control of our laws our courts and the ability to govern ourselves. We can also be governed by elected MP's in Westminster who we can remove at each general election if we don't like them (as opossed to being governed by unelected commissioners in Brussels who we cannot remove). The EU is a crumbling and failing project falling apart at the seams, the ex governor of the bank of England Sir Mervyn King said the Eurozone is doomed to failure, the safer option for Britain is to vote leave on June 23rd. | |||
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"If we can leave Europe and have full control of our immigration AND still be able to trade within the EU without being penalised then I'm all for it, but i cant ever see that happening or being allowed to happen. Of course it will happen. We buy more of their stuff than thy buy of ours. They won't not take our money. Do you really think so ? The main underlying prerequisite for any none EU member to have free trade within the EU is to allow free movement of people in their country from the EU I just dont see the UK being given special treatment We don't currently get free trade with the EU because we are paying billions every year to access the single market. You could call our EU membership fee a tariff. The worse case scenario under WTO rules with tariffs would work out to about the same amount we currently pay in EU Membership fees to access the single market, so the costs are neutral. Only outside the single market we can opt out of the free movement of people and regain control of our borders and immigration policy again. We can also remove ourselves from the rouge European Court of Justice (ECJ) and make British courts supreme again, take back control of our laws our courts and the ability to govern ourselves. We can also be governed by elected MP's in Westminster who we can remove at each general election if we don't like them (as opossed to being governed by unelected commissioners in Brussels who we cannot remove). The EU is a crumbling and failing project falling apart at the seams, the ex governor of the bank of England Sir Mervyn King said the Eurozone is doomed to failure, the safer option for Britain is to vote leave on June 23rd. " Ah yes and we can have our economy collapse as advised by the current governor of the bank of England and so many other experts that to pile them all in a lift with you would be suffocating. Then we'd have to add in the TUC and just about every trade union except 3 little ones , and the leader of one of those says that Brexit's scaremongering on immigration is a complete con - if not such a nice man he'd have said a load of bollocks. Then we'd have to add in the CBI, FSB, IMF, NFU, MMTF, various past head of MI5, MI6, multiple past presidents of the USA, prime ministers of countries from Australia to Albania, via China, Singapore and god knows where else. As for democracy in the EU, the lovely members for UKIP can thank the extremely democratic process for their MEPs, which they'd never get anywhere near the same number in a first past the post UK election. Of course we should expect them to do a job for us while they are there, but they have amongst the worst voting records of any MEPs in all 28 countries, plus they don't bother to turn up to the committees that they are on which are responsible (AND NOT the commission) for legislation. That includes Farage who turned up for one meeting out of 30 when on the fisheries committee and left to go to the pub before a vital vote on discarding catches, then he resigned, the absolutely useless gobshite that he is - and then he has the nerve to misrepresent the case for sea bass preservation and blame the EU for a UK decision - just like you did. Meanwhile over in the European parliament 12 MEPs out of the whole lot of them voted against banning trading in ivory. Six of them were from UKIP and of course, one of them was your glorious leader. What the hell has he got against elephants and rhinoceroses? Incidentally if there was a need to get rid of the commission, the people who have the democratic power to do that are the MEPs. They can vote them out. That is if Farago and co can be bothered to haul themselves out of the pub and participate in the democratic process rather than hauling in £75k a year for doing fuck all. | |||
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"PS did you mention that Sarah Woollaston (Tory MP) and Khalid Mahmood (labour MP) say Remain is their favoured option now - one because of Brexit lies about the economy and the other because of concerns about Brexit racism? EIEIO" Is this the same Khalid Mahmood who claimed £1,350 in expenses for a nine nights in a top Kensington hotel for himself and his then girlfriend in 2004? The hotel is described as a "riot of gold, marble and silk with staff who are more like servants". | |||
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"One of the major failing projects in the EU is UKIP. Failing to vote in the parliament. Failing to turn up to meetings that decide on legislation. Failing to provide a service for their constituents. Failing to do anything except collect a big fat pay check, expenses and accrue benefits for pensions that would be the envy of 99% of the people in this country." Absolute rubbish. UKIP MEPs are very vocal in Brussels. (Tory party member here but I have to call you out on that ludicrous claim) | |||
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"I kind of the jist that people are set to lose a fortune of we leave. Those women who all wanted to stay are only interested in one thing and one thing only, their pockets. And who they really are the spoke-woman for. But keep in mind, we're are talking about four countries. You should break it down country by country, not as the uk as a whole " Huh?  | |||
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"Are you confused/ The U.K is made up of four countries, three of which are playing in Euro 216" I suspect we will get a breakdown of how each home nation votes wich will be interesting and probably regions aswell . | |||
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"Dennis skinner has apparentley let it be known that he will be voting to leave I only knew about John Mann backing Brexit but just did a Google search and it's official Labour MP Dennis Skinner is also joining John Mann today in saying he will vote leave on June 23rd. " Don't forget Jeremy Corbyn is only backing remain as he feels it is his duty as party leader to do so. His record shows he is really anti EU | |||
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"Whatever happens , I'm hoping Priti Patel takes over as P M , she's mint "Sexy as hell too! | |||
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"Dennis skinner has apparentley let it be known that he will be voting to leave I only knew about John Mann backing Brexit but just did a Google search and it's official Labour MP Dennis Skinner is also joining John Mann today in saying he will vote leave on June 23rd. Don't forget Jeremy Corbyn is only backing remain as he feels it is his duty as party leader to do so. His record shows he is really anti EU" Saw a repeat of the Daily politics programme last night from yesterday and Andrew Neil interviewed Labour leave group member Kate Hoey MP. She said there are other Labour members who are biding their time and who will come out to back Brexit before June 23rd. She said some of them are quite high up in the Labour party and will surprise a few people , could she be talking about Jeremy Corbyn? We will have to wait and see? | |||
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"The one and only JOHN MANN!!??" Yes he's on the Sunday politics programme today on the BBC. | |||
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"One of the major failing projects in the EU is UKIP. Failing to vote in the parliament. Failing to turn up to meetings that decide on legislation. Failing to provide a service for their constituents. Failing to do anything except collect a big fat pay check, expenses and accrue benefits for pensions that would be the envy of 99% of the people in this country. Absolute rubbish. UKIP MEPs are very vocal in Brussels. (Tory party member here but I have to call you out on that ludicrous claim)" The ukip website ukipmeps quotes from vote watch Europes report 'Would brexit matter? The UK's voting recored in the Council and European Parliament' to bolster some of its claims so I'm happy that UKIP accepts that as a source on their voting record: Page 7: "the UKIP MEPs’ capacity to exert influence in the European Parliament is diminished by their very low participation rate in the EP votes: in the first year of the current EP term, UKIP’s delegation has had a record low participation rate of just 62.3 per cent in EP plenary votes, which places it at the very bottom among all national party delegations in the EU. " If you can't find that report you can always read this: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/ukip-meps-attend-the-fewest-european-parliament-votes-of-any-party-in-the-eus-28-countries-10316962.html Or you can try this: https://www.theguardian.com/world/datablog/2015/jun/11/ukip-europe-laziest-party-parliament Let's take Farage on fisheries, one of the issues that he has raised, since January 2015 there have been 38 votes in the European parliament, he couldn't be bothered to turn up or vote in 28 of them. That's the sound of silence and failing to carry out his responsibilities, not the voice of democracy. When he was on the fisheries committte he turned up for 1 meeting out of 30 and missed the most important vote - then obviously exhausted by all that effort he resigned after missing the opportunity to vote on a policy (discards) thathe had previously described as shameful . That's the way to support our fishing industry, NOT. http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/85563e82-8f44-11e3-be85-00144feab7de.html#ixzz4BMDEVnvo The committees are where MEPs form, revise and review proposed EU laws before they go to the parliament. Lack of attendance at those committees has jeopardised the UK position many times (read the FT article above). Have a look at the record of a couple of our star UKIP representatives: Or you can try Nuttall, a member of the environment committee, who attended only 4 per cent of its meetings, and admitted: “My attendance record is flaky to say the least.” Stuart Agnew attended 27 per cent of the constitutional affairs committee meetings, Gerard Batten 7 per cent of the civil liberties group. http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/85563e82-8f44-11e3-be85-00144feab7de.html#axzz4BMCaAxjP When they do turn up their contrarian voting approach weakens the UK's position and is often just bizarre. The ivory trade vote is an excellent example: In January 2014 six UKIP MEPs, including party leader Nigel Farage, voted against an EU motion to clamp down on the illegal ivory trade. Aside from Farage, the other five UKIP MEPs to vote against this motion were Paul Nuttall (the deputy leader), Gerrard Batten, Stuart Agnew, William Dartmouth and Derek Roland. In the end the motion passed by 671 votes to 14, but it's a source of national shame that half of the votes against this motion were cast by British MEPs elected for UKIP (a seventh was elected for UKIP and then swapped sides) Let's take another tory voice on this, with the benefit of being a former UKIP leading light and a current Brexiter: David Campbell Bannerman (who quit through the revolving door between UKIP and the Tory party) criticised UKIP for their ideological stance and their lack of participation saying "I believe in leaving the European Union, but it is important to engage as much as possible?.?.?.?Not engaging is not helpful" You carry on calling me out - what I've just quoted is the tip of the iceberg as far as UKIP laziness and lack of respect for its electorate is concerned. | |||
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"PS did you mention that Sarah Woollaston (Tory MP) and Khalid Mahmood (labour MP) say Remain is their favoured option now - one because of Brexit lies about the economy and the other because of concerns about Brexit racism? EIEIO Is this the same Khalid Mahmood who claimed £1,350 in expenses for a nine nights in a top Kensington hotel for himself and his then girlfriend in 2004? The hotel is described as a "riot of gold, marble and silk with staff who are more like servants"." That would be the one. Are you saying that he hasn't left the Brexit campaign while pointing out racist influences in it? | |||
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" Ah yes and we can have our economy collapse as advised by the current governor of the bank of England and so many other experts that to pile them all in a lift with you would be suffocating. Then we'd have to add in the TUC and just about every trade union except 3 little ones , and the leader of one of those says that Brexit's scaremongering on immigration is a complete con - if not such a nice man he'd have said a load of bollocks. Then we'd have to add in the CBI, FSB, IMF, NFU, MMTF, various past head of MI5, MI6, multiple past presidents of the USA, prime ministers of countries from Australia to Albania, via China, Singapore and god knows where else. " Past heads of MI5/6? You mean like Sir Richard Dearlove who backs Brexit. Funny thing is that the head of this, governor of that, and director of the other (all drawing fat public sector salaries) back Remain. Former heads of this, that, and the other (no longer drawing public sector salaries) seem to back Brexit. Hmm, I wonder why? | |||
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" Ah yes and we can have our economy collapse as advised by the current governor of the bank of England and so many other experts that to pile them all in a lift with you would be suffocating. Then we'd have to add in the TUC and just about every trade union except 3 little ones , and the leader of one of those says that Brexit's scaremongering on immigration is a complete con - if not such a nice man he'd have said a load of bollocks. Then we'd have to add in the CBI, FSB, IMF, NFU, MMTF, various past head of MI5, MI6, multiple past presidents of the USA, prime ministers of countries from Australia to Albania, via China, Singapore and god knows where else. Past heads of MI5/6? You mean like Sir Richard Dearlove who backs Brexit. Funny thing is that the head of this, governor of that, and director of the other (all drawing fat public sector salaries) back Remain. Former heads of this, that, and the other (no longer drawing public sector salaries) seem to back Brexit. Hmm, I wonder why?" They can carry on collecting fat inflation proofed final salary civil service pensions that protect them in the way that ordinary people won't be protected from the economic failure they invite | |||
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" Ah yes and we can have our economy collapse as advised by the current governor of the bank of England and so many other experts that to pile them all in a lift with you would be suffocating. Then we'd have to add in the TUC and just about every trade union except 3 little ones , and the leader of one of those says that Brexit's scaremongering on immigration is a complete con - if not such a nice man he'd have said a load of bollocks. Then we'd have to add in the CBI, FSB, IMF, NFU, MMTF, various past head of MI5, MI6, multiple past presidents of the USA, prime ministers of countries from Australia to Albania, via China, Singapore and god knows where else. Past heads of MI5/6? You mean like Sir Richard Dearlove who backs Brexit. Funny thing is that the head of this, governor of that, and director of the other (all drawing fat public sector salaries) back Remain. Former heads of this, that, and the other (no longer drawing public sector salaries) seem to back Brexit. Hmm, I wonder why? They can carry on collecting fat inflation proofed final salary civil service pensions that protect them in the way that ordinary people won't be protected from the economic failure they invite" Good answer, but flawed. I would argue that the ones with pensions will keep them anyway. If anything, if we believe the remainers doom prophesy's, they are actually taking a risk. The ones currently in their positions are just covering their own arse. | |||
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"One of the major failing projects in the EU is UKIP. Failing to vote in the parliament. Failing to turn up to meetings that decide on legislation. Failing to provide a service for their constituents. Failing to do anything except collect a big fat pay check, expenses and accrue benefits for pensions that would be the envy of 99% of the people in this country. Absolute rubbish. UKIP MEPs are very vocal in Brussels. (Tory party member here but I have to call you out on that ludicrous claim) The ukip website ukipmeps quotes from vote watch Europes report 'Would brexit matter? The UK's voting recored in the Council and European Parliament' to bolster some of its claims so I'm happy that UKIP accepts that as a source on their voting record: Page 7: "the UKIP MEPs’ capacity to exert influence in the European Parliament is diminished by their very low participation rate in the EP votes: in the first year of the current EP term, UKIP’s delegation has had a record low participation rate of just 62.3 per cent in EP plenary votes, which places it at the very bottom among all national party delegations in the EU. " If you can't find that report you can always read this: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/ukip-meps-attend-the-fewest-european-parliament-votes-of-any-party-in-the-eus-28-countries-10316962.html Or you can try this: https://www.theguardian.com/world/datablog/2015/jun/11/ukip-europe-laziest-party-parliament Let's take Farage on fisheries, one of the issues that he has raised, since January 2015 there have been 38 votes in the European parliament, he couldn't be bothered to turn up or vote in 28 of them. That's the sound of silence and failing to carry out his responsibilities, not the voice of democracy. When he was on the fisheries committte he turned up for 1 meeting out of 30 and missed the most important vote - then obviously exhausted by all that effort he resigned after missing the opportunity to vote on a policy (discards) thathe had previously described as shameful . That's the way to support our fishing industry, NOT. http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/85563e82-8f44-11e3-be85-00144feab7de.html#ixzz4BMDEVnvo The committees are where MEPs form, revise and review proposed EU laws before they go to the parliament. Lack of attendance at those committees has jeopardised the UK position many times (read the FT article above). Have a look at the record of a couple of our star UKIP representatives: Or you can try Nuttall, a member of the environment committee, who attended only 4 per cent of its meetings, and admitted: “My attendance record is flaky to say the least.” Stuart Agnew attended 27 per cent of the constitutional affairs committee meetings, Gerard Batten 7 per cent of the civil liberties group. http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/85563e82-8f44-11e3-be85-00144feab7de.html#axzz4BMCaAxjP When they do turn up their contrarian voting approach weakens the UK's position and is often just bizarre. The ivory trade vote is an excellent example: In January 2014 six UKIP MEPs, including party leader Nigel Farage, voted against an EU motion to clamp down on the illegal ivory trade. Aside from Farage, the other five UKIP MEPs to vote against this motion were Paul Nuttall (the deputy leader), Gerrard Batten, Stuart Agnew, William Dartmouth and Derek Roland. In the end the motion passed by 671 votes to 14, but it's a source of national shame that half of the votes against this motion were cast by British MEPs elected for UKIP (a seventh was elected for UKIP and then swapped sides) Let's take another tory voice on this, with the benefit of being a former UKIP leading light and a current Brexiter: David Campbell Bannerman (who quit through the revolving door between UKIP and the Tory party) criticised UKIP for their ideological stance and their lack of participation saying "I believe in leaving the European Union, but it is important to engage as much as possible?.?.?.?Not engaging is not helpful" You carry on calling me out - what I've just quoted is the tip of the iceberg as far as UKIP laziness and lack of respect for its electorate is concerned. " one would think that some of the most vocal on here in favour of Brexit and how well Farage is doing in the campaign, especially UKIP supporters would know such things about their party and the types of behaviour displayed.. | |||
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" Ah yes and we can have our economy collapse as advised by the current governor of the bank of England and so many other experts that to pile them all in a lift with you would be suffocating. Then we'd have to add in the TUC and just about every trade union except 3 little ones , and the leader of one of those says that Brexit's scaremongering on immigration is a complete con - if not such a nice man he'd have said a load of bollocks. Then we'd have to add in the CBI, FSB, IMF, NFU, MMTF, various past head of MI5, MI6, multiple past presidents of the USA, prime ministers of countries from Australia to Albania, via China, Singapore and god knows where else. Past heads of MI5/6? You mean like Sir Richard Dearlove who backs Brexit. Funny thing is that the head of this, governor of that, and director of the other (all drawing fat public sector salaries) back Remain. Former heads of this, that, and the other (no longer drawing public sector salaries) seem to back Brexit. Hmm, I wonder why? They can carry on collecting fat inflation proofed final salary civil service pensions that protect them in the way that ordinary people won't be protected from the economic failure they invite Good answer, but flawed. I would argue that the ones with pensions will keep them anyway. If anything, if we believe the remainers doom prophesy's, they are actually taking a risk. The ones currently in their positions are just covering their own arse. " Well if you're going to look for the pensioners to give their viewpoints, try the following. They've retired in the last fewf years and know what they are talking about when it comes to the current situation. Dearlove retired 12 years ago: Sir John Scarlett MI6 2004-2009: head of spy service MI6 recently wrote in The Times that “British agencies…collaborate intimately with their European partners and benefit greatly from their capabilities.” Lord Evans 2007-2013 head of MI5, Former MI6 boss 2009-2014 Sir John Sawers announced a few days ago (May 8) that the UK would be shut out of decisions on the "crucial" issue of data sharing. We would be less safe if the UK voted to leave, because we would be unable to take part in the decisions that frame the sharing of data, which is a crucial part of counter-terrorism and counter-cyber work that we do these days, and we would lose the abilities of thing like the European Arrest Warrant." He said the UK leaving would also threaten wider European stability, saying: "We are only secure because the wider Europe is secure, pulling out will make it more dangerous." According to recent heads of MI6 and MI5, people who know: "We are only secure because the wider Europe is secure, pulling out will make it more dangerous." http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-36239741 They've got recent knowledge of the security situation and how it's handled and their words are telling us not to believe the cloud cuckooland views coming from the Brexit propaganda team | |||
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"If we can leave Europe and have full control of our immigration AND still be able to trade within the EU without being penalised then I'm all for it, but i cant ever see that happening or being allowed to happen." Given the Editorial pro EU bias of the BBC its Economics Editor Kamal Ahmed did a piece couple of days ago that describes that situation very well. Just remember we run a £60+ Bn a year trade deficit with EU countries like Germany. The EU itself buys nothing but tells others how to do it. So this makes interesting reading. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-36500747 What is even MORE interesting are the contributions in the 'View Comments' section at the end of the article. You can go straight to them here: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-36500747/comments View by 'Latest First' or my favourite: 'Highest Rated'. However the Remainers threaten and try to scare us if you watch 'Question Time' or other audience involved debates it is the Brexit arguments that are getting the applause. I am going to the BBC EU Debate at Wembley on the 21st and I have won a ballot to ask a question.... | |||
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" Ah yes and we can have our economy collapse as advised by the current governor of the bank of England and so many other experts that to pile them all in a lift with you would be suffocating. Then we'd have to add in the TUC and just about every trade union except 3 little ones , and the leader of one of those says that Brexit's scaremongering on immigration is a complete con - if not such a nice man he'd have said a load of bollocks. Then we'd have to add in the CBI, FSB, IMF, NFU, MMTF, various past head of MI5, MI6, multiple past presidents of the USA, prime ministers of countries from Australia to Albania, via China, Singapore and god knows where else. Past heads of MI5/6? You mean like Sir Richard Dearlove who backs Brexit. Funny thing is that the head of this, governor of that, and director of the other (all drawing fat public sector salaries) back Remain. Former heads of this, that, and the other (no longer drawing public sector salaries) seem to back Brexit. Hmm, I wonder why? They can carry on collecting fat inflation proofed final salary civil service pensions that protect them in the way that ordinary people won't be protected from the economic failure they invite Good answer, but flawed. I would argue that the ones with pensions will keep them anyway. If anything, if we believe the remainers doom prophesy's, they are actually taking a risk. The ones currently in their positions are just covering their own arse. Well if you're going to look for the pensioners to give their viewpoints, try the following. They've retired in the last fewf years and know what they are talking about when it comes to the current situation. Dearlove retired 12 years ago: Sir John Scarlett MI6 2004-2009: head of spy service MI6 recently wrote in The Times that “British agencies…collaborate intimately with their European partners and benefit greatly from their capabilities.” Lord Evans 2007-2013 head of MI5, Former MI6 boss 2009-2014 Sir John Sawers announced a few days ago (May 8) that the UK would be shut out of decisions on the "crucial" issue of data sharing. We would be less safe if the UK voted to leave, because we would be unable to take part in the decisions that frame the sharing of data, which is a crucial part of counter-terrorism and counter-cyber work that we do these days, and we would lose the abilities of thing like the European Arrest Warrant." He said the UK leaving would also threaten wider European stability, saying: "We are only secure because the wider Europe is secure, pulling out will make it more dangerous." According to recent heads of MI6 and MI5, people who know: "We are only secure because the wider Europe is secure, pulling out will make it more dangerous." http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-36239741 They've got recent knowledge of the security situation and how it's handled and their words are telling us not to believe the cloud cuckooland views coming from the Brexit propaganda team" I'll see your John Scarlet and raise you Mervin King. | |||
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"In an open letter in The Sun newspaper today Labour MP John Mann comes out to support Brexit. He wants Britain to leave the EU and urges Labour voters to vote Leave on June 23rd. " and for every john mann.... there is dr sarah wolleston, who went from leave to remain siting the untruths that were being told....especially in the nhs where she was a practicing gp till she became an mp we know we tend not to a;ways trust politicians... but i would be more inclined to trust a gp from within the nhs who is likely to know what is happening at the "tap end" so to speak... but yes... one side lords over decision.. and one side in threads on here rubbished hers and claimed there were alterior motives.... goes both ways.... cheer the bosses of jcb and weatherspoons.... boo the bossed of jp morgan and citibank cheer john dyson.... rubbish richard branson.... | |||
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" I'll see your John Scarlet and raise you Mervin King." would the current bank of england governor trump the last one....
just because i am pretty sure that Carney has said on numourous occasion that brexit.... would be determental (not going to use the word bad) to the uk enconomy....
oooh....since we are playing trumps....
does the governor of the ECB trump the Governor of the BoE
or the Governor of the world bank or the IMF.....
and where does janet yellen, chair of the us financial reserve stand on the totum pole....
just curious...... | |||
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"In an open letter in The Sun newspaper today Labour MP John Mann comes out to support Brexit. He wants Britain to leave the EU and urges Labour voters to vote Leave on June 23rd. and for every john mann.... there is dr sarah wolleston, who went from leave to remain siting the untruths that were being told....especially in the nhs where she was a practicing gp till she became an mp we know we tend not to a;ways trust politicians... but i would be more inclined to trust a gp from within the nhs who is likely to know what is happening at the "tap end" so to speak... but yes... one side lords over decision.. and one side in threads on here rubbished hers and claimed there were alterior motives.... goes both ways.... cheer the bosses of jcb and weatherspoons.... boo the bossed of jp morgan and citibank cheer john dyson.... rubbish richard branson...." As hand in hand said on the Dyson thread why on earth don't don't you start your own threads then Fabio? See what kind of response you get? | |||
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" I'll see your John Scarlet and raise you Mervin King. would the current bank of england governor trump the last one....
just because i am pretty sure that Carney has said on numourous occasion that brexit.... would be determental (not going to use the word bad) to the uk enconomy....
oooh....since we are playing trumps....
does the governor of the ECB trump the Governor of the BoE
or the Governor of the world bank or the IMF.....
and where does janet yellen, chair of the us financial reserve stand on the totum pole....
just curious......"I would say they all have vested interests. Mervin King would trump Carney because Carney (although supposedly independent) is still on the government payroll. There is a big difference between a salary and a pension. Same applies to Dragi, he has no choice other than to follow the Brussels line. Any comments coming from the US are (as always) based on what is good for the US. Not necessarily what is best for Britain or even Europe. | |||
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"If we can leave Europe and have full control of our immigration AND still be able to trade within the EU without being penalised then I'm all for it, but i cant ever see that happening or being allowed to happen. Given the Editorial pro EU bias of the BBC its Economics Editor Kamal Ahmed did a piece couple of days ago that describes that situation very well. Just remember we run a £60+ Bn a year trade deficit with EU countries like Germany. The EU itself buys nothing but tells others how to do it. So this makes interesting reading. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-36500747 What is even MORE interesting are the contributions in the 'View Comments' section at the end of the article. You can go straight to them here: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-36500747/comments View by 'Latest First' or my favourite: 'Highest Rated'. However the Remainers threaten and try to scare us if you watch 'Question Time' or other audience involved debates it is the Brexit arguments that are getting the applause. I am going to the BBC EU Debate at Wembley on the 21st and I have won a ballot to ask a question.... "
Any idea yet who will be the participants in the Wembley debate? | |||
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" They've got recent knowledge of the security situation and how it's handled and their words are telling us not to believe the cloud cuckooland views coming from the Brexit propaganda team " Ignoring the childish 'cloud cuckooland' and 'propaganda' nonsense lets cut to the chase on security shall we? The UK has the most effective Intelligence and counter espionage outfits in the world. We are very highly regarded by the USA for the quality and accuracy of our Intell. GCHQ provides many times more Intell. to the other countries in the EU than we ever get from them. That will continue post-Brexit. In the last 16 years we have had 3 terrorist acts here in the UK: May 2013 when Lee Rigby was murdered; June 2007 at Glasgow Airport and of course July 2007 with the London bombings. They were all home grown terrorists. we have had NO attacks from outside the UK since the last IRA bombing in Birmingham in 2001. And it is BECAUSE we have had years of the IRA that we are the best. That will continue post-Brexit. We also have the best trained, equipped and capable military forces in the EU. Its why France wants to join with us in expanding their military and fast reaction capability independently of the EU. That will continue post-Brexit. We are rated as No. 1 in 'Soft Power' in the world. Other countries listen and respect us more than any other. That will continue and quite possibly improve post-Brexit. We also happen to be the largest contributor to NATO in hard cash and GDP terms (2%) in the EU. And it is NATO not the EU that has kept peace in Europe since WWII. To believe otherwise really is in some land of the cuckoos. That will continue post-Brexit. The EU as a body contributes nothing to security. It is the combined efforts of individual nation states that achieve whatever is achieved. It just happens the UK is the best connected and capable Nation State at this particular game. And one can certainly argue that the EU has seriously damaged the security of Europe because of its politically dominated dogma of 'free movement of people' and the creation of the Schengen Agreement on open borders. So a terrorist enters Greece on a dinghy with a fake passport, can travel all the way to Paris and then shoot dozens of people. THAT isn't cloud cuckooland. THAT isn't propaganda. THAT is a historical fact. And THAT is not a security arrangement I wish to continue with thank you very much. | |||
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"In an open letter in The Sun newspaper today Labour MP John Mann comes out to support Brexit. He wants Britain to leave the EU and urges Labour voters to vote Leave on June 23rd. and for every john mann.... there is dr sarah wolleston, who went from leave to remain siting the untruths that were being told....especially in the nhs where she was a practicing gp till she became an mp we know we tend not to a;ways trust politicians... but i would be more inclined to trust a gp from within the nhs who is likely to know what is happening at the "tap end" so to speak... but yes... one side lords over decision.. and one side in threads on here rubbished hers and claimed there were alterior motives.... goes both ways.... cheer the bosses of jcb and weatherspoons.... boo the bossed of jp morgan and citibank cheer john dyson.... rubbish richard branson.... As hand in hand said on the Dyson thread why on earth don't don't you start your own threads then Fabio? See what kind of response you get? " What's that old saying about people in glass houses? | |||
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"In an open letter in The Sun newspaper today Labour MP John Mann comes out to support Brexit. He wants Britain to leave the EU and urges Labour voters to vote Leave on June 23rd. and for every john mann.... there is dr sarah wolleston, who went from leave to remain siting the untruths that were being told....especially in the nhs where she was a practicing gp till she became an mp we know we tend not to a;ways trust politicians... but i would be more inclined to trust a gp from within the nhs who is likely to know what is happening at the "tap end" so to speak... but yes... one side lords over decision.. and one side in threads on here rubbished hers and claimed there were alterior motives.... goes both ways.... cheer the bosses of jcb and weatherspoons.... boo the bossed of jp morgan and citibank cheer john dyson.... rubbish richard branson.... As hand in hand said on the Dyson thread why on earth don't don't you start your own threads then Fabio? See what kind of response you get? " when you start a thread... you lose control over who may or may not contribute to it.... so as long as i remain within the rules.... i'll contribute to any thread i deem fit to... point... counterpoint... you don't like the counterpoint.... thats not on me!!!! | |||
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" I'll see your John Scarlet and raise you Mervin King. would the current bank of england governor trump the last one....
just because i am pretty sure that Carney has said on numourous occasion that brexit.... would be determental (not going to use the word bad) to the uk enconomy....
oooh....since we are playing trumps....
does the governor of the ECB trump the Governor of the BoE
or the Governor of the world bank or the IMF.....
and where does janet yellen, chair of the us financial reserve stand on the totum pole....
just curious......
I would say they all have vested interests.
Mervin King would trump Carney because Carney (although supposedly independent) is still on the government payroll. There is a big difference between a salary and a pension.
Same applies to Dragi, he has no choice other than to follow the Brussels line.
Any comments coming from the US are (as always) based on what is good for the US. Not necessarily what is best for Britain or even Europe."Avon cosmetics from the USA have said they intend to invest in Britain and move their headquarters from New York to Britain even if we leave the EU. It is a huge vote of confidence in the UK and completely rubbishes the line coming from the Remain campaign that no one will invest in Britain if we leave the EU. | |||
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"In an open letter in The Sun newspaper today Labour MP John Mann comes out to support Brexit. He wants Britain to leave the EU and urges Labour voters to vote Leave on June 23rd. and for every john mann.... there is dr sarah wolleston, who went from leave to remain siting the untruths that were being told....especially in the nhs where she was a practicing gp till she became an mp we know we tend not to a;ways trust politicians... but i would be more inclined to trust a gp from within the nhs who is likely to know what is happening at the "tap end" so to speak... but yes... one side lords over decision.. and one side in threads on here rubbished hers and claimed there were alterior motives.... goes both ways.... cheer the bosses of jcb and weatherspoons.... boo the bossed of jp morgan and citibank cheer john dyson.... rubbish richard branson.... As hand in hand said on the Dyson thread why on earth don't don't you start your own threads then Fabio? See what kind of response you get? " how many threads would one wish to see on the salient points of the day..? and as you well know the mods will rightly close down multiple threads on the same subject.. repeating something that is being used by others to try and rubbish another's opinions on a subject instead of engaging in the debate by answering said opinions is the debating tactics of the 'shout down bully'.. bit of a surprise that you adhere to that view.. | |||
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" Any idea yet who will be the participants in the Wembley debate? " None have been advertised but it will be the main protagonists from each side. And I would think a major TV debate 2 days before the Referendum will attract the best each side can offer. Interesting if Cameron shows up. | |||
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"In an open letter in The Sun newspaper today Labour MP John Mann comes out to support Brexit. He wants Britain to leave the EU and urges Labour voters to vote Leave on June 23rd. and for every john mann.... there is dr sarah wolleston, who went from leave to remain siting the untruths that were being told....especially in the nhs where she was a practicing gp till she became an mp we know we tend not to a;ways trust politicians... but i would be more inclined to trust a gp from within the nhs who is likely to know what is happening at the "tap end" so to speak... but yes... one side lords over decision.. and one side in threads on here rubbished hers and claimed there were alterior motives.... goes both ways.... cheer the bosses of jcb and weatherspoons.... boo the bossed of jp morgan and citibank cheer john dyson.... rubbish richard branson.... As hand in hand said on the Dyson thread why on earth don't don't you start your own threads then Fabio? See what kind of response you get? when you start a thread... you lose control over who may or may not contribute to it.... so as long as i remain within the rules.... i'll contribute to any thread i deem fit to... point... counterpoint... you don't like the counterpoint.... thats not on me!!!!" You don't seem to like the way Brexiters are starting threads about influential people that back leaving the EU. Yet I've yet to see you start any threads about anyone who backs Remain? Surely the responsibility is on you if that is the message you want to put across. | |||
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" Any idea yet who will be the participants in the Wembley debate? None have been advertised but it will be the main protagonists from each side. And I would think a major TV debate 2 days before the Referendum will attract the best each side can offer. Interesting if Cameron shows up." Frankly I don't think Cameron has got the bottle. He already chickened out of going head to head with Micheal Gove on sky news and Nigel Farage on itv. He insisted on appearing separately. What is he afraid of? Besides I thought Cameron had already ruled himself out of the Wembley debate. | |||
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" They've got recent knowledge of the security situation and how it's handled and their words are telling us not to believe the cloud cuckooland views coming from the Brexit propaganda team Ignoring the childish 'cloud cuckooland' and 'propaganda' nonsense lets cut to the chase on security shall we? The UK has the most effective Intelligence and counter espionage outfits in the world. We are very highly regarded by the USA for the quality and accuracy of our Intell. GCHQ provides many times more Intell. to the other countries in the EU than we ever get from them. That will continue post-Brexit. In the last 16 years we have had 3 terrorist acts here in the UK: May 2013 when Lee Rigby was murdered; June 2007 at Glasgow Airport and of course July 2007 with the London bombings. They were all home grown terrorists. we have had NO attacks from outside the UK since the last IRA bombing in Birmingham in 2001. And it is BECAUSE we have had years of the IRA that we are the best. That will continue post-Brexit. We also have the best trained, equipped and capable military forces in the EU. Its why France wants to join with us in expanding their military and fast reaction capability independently of the EU. That will continue post-Brexit. We are rated as No. 1 in 'Soft Power' in the world. Other countries listen and respect us more than any other. That will continue and quite possibly improve post-Brexit. We also happen to be the largest contributor to NATO in hard cash and GDP terms (2%) in the EU. And it is NATO not the EU that has kept peace in Europe since WWII. To believe otherwise really is in some land of the cuckoos. That will continue post-Brexit. The EU as a body contributes nothing to security. It is the combined efforts of individual nation states that achieve whatever is achieved. It just happens the UK is the best connected and capable Nation State at this particular game. And one can certainly argue that the EU has seriously damaged the security of Europe because of its politically dominated dogma of 'free movement of people' and the creation of the Schengen Agreement on open borders. So a terrorist enters Greece on a dinghy with a fake passport, can travel all the way to Paris and then shoot dozens of people. THAT isn't cloud cuckooland. THAT isn't propaganda. THAT is a historical fact. And THAT is not a security arrangement I wish to continue with thank you very much." Excellent post.
I bet that will get some of the remainers on here scurrying for their Brussels briefing notes. | |||
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" They've got recent knowledge of the security situation and how it's handled and their words are telling us not to believe the cloud cuckooland views coming from the Brexit propaganda team Ignoring the childish 'cloud cuckooland' and 'propaganda' nonsense lets cut to the chase on security shall we? The UK has the most effective Intelligence and counter espionage outfits in the world. We are very highly regarded by the USA for the quality and accuracy of our Intell. GCHQ provides many times more Intell. to the other countries in the EU than we ever get from them. That will continue post-Brexit. In the last 16 years we have had 3 terrorist acts here in the UK: May 2013 when Lee Rigby was murdered; June 2007 at Glasgow Airport and of course July 2007 with the London bombings. They were all home grown terrorists. we have had NO attacks from outside the UK since the last IRA bombing in Birmingham in 2001. And it is BECAUSE we have had years of the IRA that we are the best. That will continue post-Brexit. We also have the best trained, equipped and capable military forces in the EU. Its why France wants to join with us in expanding their military and fast reaction capability independently of the EU. That will continue post-Brexit. We are rated as No. 1 in 'Soft Power' in the world. Other countries listen and respect us more than any other. That will continue and quite possibly improve post-Brexit. We also happen to be the largest contributor to NATO in hard cash and GDP terms (2%) in the EU. And it is NATO not the EU that has kept peace in Europe since WWII. To believe otherwise really is in some land of the cuckoos. That will continue post-Brexit. The EU as a body contributes nothing to security. It is the combined efforts of individual nation states that achieve whatever is achieved. It just happens the UK is the best connected and capable Nation State at this particular game. And one can certainly argue that the EU has seriously damaged the security of Europe because of its politically dominated dogma of 'free movement of people' and the creation of the Schengen Agreement on open borders. So a terrorist enters Greece on a dinghy with a fake passport, can travel all the way to Paris and then shoot dozens of people. THAT isn't cloud cuckooland. THAT isn't propaganda. THAT is a historical fact. And THAT is not a security arrangement I wish to continue with thank you very much. Excellent post.
I bet that will get some of the remainers on here scurrying for their Brussels briefing notes. "You may be in for a long wait, it took Man4eu nearly 2 weeks to come back with any kind of real reply to a link I posted about the EU forcing Britain into the whale meat trade. If it takes 2 weeks from this point though we'll already have voted. | |||
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" I would say they all have vested interests. Mervin King would trump Carney because Carney (although supposedly independent) is still on the government payroll. There is a big difference between a salary and a pension. Same applies to Dragi, he has no choice other than to follow the Brussels line. Any comments coming from the US are (as always) based on what is good for the US. Not necessarily what is best for Britain or even Europe. " All excellent points. Especially about the USA which now (apparently) sees us as some Trojan Horse within the EU to a) further their TTIP ambitions and b) be their tame voice. I think the UK is worth more than that and if the Yanks don't like it well we will see what Clinton or Trump will do about it. As to the Euro itself people don't realise that when the IMF are gobbing off about us 'remaining' it is the same IMF that sit at the Euro central table alongside Dragi and the other failures trying to patch and mend their sinking currency. A currency based on rules that no one understood or complied with and then were later changed .... madness. Carney has become damaged goods to be honest. he has made so many wrong forecasts and changed strategy so many times (interest rates?) no one really cares. He will go back to Canada soon anyway. Mervyn King was a lifetime Bank of England man. His loyalties are crystal clear: They are to the British people and not the Governments of the day. | |||
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"If we can leave Europe and have full control of our immigration AND still be able to trade within the EU without being penalised then I'm all for it, but i cant ever see that happening or being allowed to happen. Of course it will happen. We buy more of their stuff than thy buy of ours. They won't not take our money. Do you really think so ? The main underlying prerequisite for any none EU member to have free trade within the EU is to allow free movement of people in their country from the EU I just dont see the UK being given special treatment We don't currently get free trade with the EU because we are paying billions every year to access the single market. You could call our EU membership fee a tariff. The worse case scenario under WTO rules with tariffs would work out to about the same amount we currently pay in EU Membership fees to access the single market, so the costs are neutral. Only outside the single market we can opt out of the free movement of people and regain control of our borders and immigration policy again. We can also remove ourselves from the rouge European Court of Justice (ECJ) and make British courts supreme again, take back control of our laws our courts and the ability to govern ourselves. We can also be governed by elected MP's in Westminster who we can remove at each general election if we don't like them (as opossed to being governed by unelected commissioners in Brussels who we cannot remove). The EU is a crumbling and failing project falling apart at the seams, the ex governor of the bank of England Sir Mervyn King said the Eurozone is doomed to failure, the safer option for Britain is to vote leave on June 23rd. " Very good post, the trouble with a lot of this debate is that too many have fallen for the "we wont be able to sell stuff" line from the remain camp, the WTO rules will trump any eu ones as a default position | |||
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"Germany has already stated that we're not going to be allowed to behave as if ee are a member, taking only those benefits of membership we prefer but not actually be members. Free movement of people from the EU and the UK is here to stay. Whatever you and I vote. " I didnt realise the germans made the rules I thought it was decided by all the 27 members, silly me  | |||
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" They've got recent knowledge of the security situation and how it's handled and their words are telling us not to believe the cloud cuckooland views coming from the Brexit propaganda team Ignoring the childish 'cloud cuckooland' and 'propaganda' nonsense lets cut to the chase on security shall we? The UK has the most effective Intelligence and counter espionage outfits in the world. We are very highly regarded by the USA for the quality and accuracy of our Intell. GCHQ provides many times more Intell. to the other countries in the EU than we ever get from them. That will continue post-Brexit. In the last 16 years we have had 3 terrorist acts here in the UK: May 2013 when Lee Rigby was murdered; June 2007 at Glasgow Airport and of course July 2007 with the London bombings. They were all home grown terrorists. we have had NO attacks from outside the UK since the last IRA bombing in Birmingham in 2001. And it is BECAUSE we have had years of the IRA that we are the best. That will continue post-Brexit. We also have the best trained, equipped and capable military forces in the EU. Its why France wants to join with us in expanding their military and fast reaction capability independently of the EU. That will continue post-Brexit. We are rated as No. 1 in 'Soft Power' in the world. Other countries listen and respect us more than any other. That will continue and quite possibly improve post-Brexit. We also happen to be the largest contributor to NATO in hard cash and GDP terms (2%) in the EU. And it is NATO not the EU that has kept peace in Europe since WWII. To believe otherwise really is in some land of the cuckoos. That will continue post-Brexit. The EU as a body contributes nothing to security. It is the combined efforts of individual nation states that achieve whatever is achieved. It just happens the UK is the best connected and capable Nation State at this particular game. And one can certainly argue that the EU has seriously damaged the security of Europe because of its politically dominated dogma of 'free movement of people' and the creation of the Schengen Agreement on open borders. So a terrorist enters Greece on a dinghy with a fake passport, can travel all the way to Paris and then shoot dozens of people. THAT isn't cloud cuckooland. THAT isn't propaganda. THAT is a historical fact. And THAT is not a security arrangement I wish to continue with thank you very much. Excellent post.
I bet that will get some of the remainers on here scurrying for their Brussels briefing notes.
You may be in for a long wait, it took Man4eu nearly 2 weeks to come back with any kind of real reply to a link I posted about the EU forcing Britain into the whale meat trade. If it takes 2 weeks from this point though we'll already have voted. "Maybe there was a training course in Brussels at the time. | |||
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"If we can leave Europe and have full control of our immigration AND still be able to trade within the EU without being penalised then I'm all for it, but i cant ever see that happening or being allowed to happen. Of course it will happen. We buy more of their stuff than thy buy of ours. They won't not take our money." Trade volumes are far more important than trade surpluses or deficits. The reality is is that almost 50% of our exports go to the EU while the EU exports only about 10% to us. We all know that most of this trade would carry on one way or another regardless but any drop in this trade will have about 5 times the effect on the UK that it would have on the EU. And that is why the real strength in any trade negotiations really lies with the EU, not the UK. | |||
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" Any idea yet who will be the participants in the Wembley debate? None have been advertised but it will be the main protagonists from each side. And I would think a major TV debate 2 days before the Referendum will attract the best each side can offer. Interesting if Cameron shows up." PLEASE ask him why during his dealings to get his special deal he repeatedly said as the fifth biggest economy we would be fine outside the eu but now he says it would be a disaster,as voter who would normally be a tory supporter he has lost any shred of respect I had for him, at least corbyn and skinner always keep the same views even if I dont agree with them I respect them for that | |||
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" They've got recent knowledge of the security situation and how it's handled and their words are telling us not to believe the cloud cuckooland views coming from the Brexit propaganda team Ignoring the childish 'cloud cuckooland' and 'propaganda' nonsense lets cut to the chase on security shall we? The UK has the most effective Intelligence and counter espionage outfits in the world. We are very highly regarded by the USA for the quality and accuracy of our Intell. GCHQ provides many times more Intell. to the other countries in the EU than we ever get from them. That will continue post-Brexit. In the last 16 years we have had 3 terrorist acts here in the UK: May 2013 when Lee Rigby was murdered; June 2007 at Glasgow Airport and of course July 2007 with the London bombings. They were all home grown terrorists. we have had NO attacks from outside the UK since the last IRA bombing in Birmingham in 2001. And it is BECAUSE we have had years of the IRA that we are the best. That will continue post-Brexit. We also have the best trained, equipped and capable military forces in the EU. Its why France wants to join with us in expanding their military and fast reaction capability independently of the EU. That will continue post-Brexit. We are rated as No. 1 in 'Soft Power' in the world. Other countries listen and respect us more than any other. That will continue and quite possibly improve post-Brexit. We also happen to be the largest contributor to NATO in hard cash and GDP terms (2%) in the EU. And it is NATO not the EU that has kept peace in Europe since WWII. To believe otherwise really is in some land of the cuckoos. That will continue post-Brexit. The EU as a body contributes nothing to security. It is the combined efforts of individual nation states that achieve whatever is achieved. It just happens the UK is the best connected and capable Nation State at this particular game. And one can certainly argue that the EU has seriously damaged the security of Europe because of its politically dominated dogma of 'free movement of people' and the creation of the Schengen Agreement on open borders. So a terrorist enters Greece on a dinghy with a fake passport, can travel all the way to Paris and then shoot dozens of people. THAT isn't cloud cuckooland. THAT isn't propaganda. THAT is a historical fact. And THAT is not a security arrangement I wish to continue with thank you very much. Excellent post.
I bet that will get some of the remainers on here scurrying for their Brussels briefing notes.
You may be in for a long wait, it took Man4eu nearly 2 weeks to come back with any kind of real reply to a link I posted about the EU forcing Britain into the whale meat trade. If it takes 2 weeks from this point though we'll already have voted. "Funnily enough I answered that in some detail pointing out the measures that the EU actually take and giving you some information from a conservation group so you can go and check your facts for once. You didn't bother to come back. Someone else said at the time, that perhaps you had shut up about it now that we have the facts about it. I expect that a UKIP briefing session took you away from your laptop? | |||
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" They've got recent knowledge of the security situation and how it's handled and their words are telling us not to believe the cloud cuckooland views coming from the Brexit propaganda team Ignoring the childish 'cloud cuckooland' and 'propaganda' nonsense lets cut to the chase on security shall we? The UK has the most effective Intelligence and counter espionage outfits in the world. We are very highly regarded by the USA for the quality and accuracy of our Intell. GCHQ provides many times more Intell. to the other countries in the EU than we ever get from them. That will continue post-Brexit. In the last 16 years we have had 3 terrorist acts here in the UK: May 2013 when Lee Rigby was murdered; June 2007 at Glasgow Airport and of course July 2007 with the London bombings. They were all home grown terrorists. we have had NO attacks from outside the UK since the last IRA bombing in Birmingham in 2001. And it is BECAUSE we have had years of the IRA that we are the best. That will continue post-Brexit. We also have the best trained, equipped and capable military forces in the EU. Its why France wants to join with us in expanding their military and fast reaction capability independently of the EU. That will continue post-Brexit. We are rated as No. 1 in 'Soft Power' in the world. Other countries listen and respect us more than any other. That will continue and quite possibly improve post-Brexit. We also happen to be the largest contributor to NATO in hard cash and GDP terms (2%) in the EU. And it is NATO not the EU that has kept peace in Europe since WWII. To believe otherwise really is in some land of the cuckoos. That will continue post-Brexit. The EU as a body contributes nothing to security. It is the combined efforts of individual nation states that achieve whatever is achieved. It just happens the UK is the best connected and capable Nation State at this particular game. And one can certainly argue that the EU has seriously damaged the security of Europe because of its politically dominated dogma of 'free movement of people' and the creation of the Schengen Agreement on open borders. So a terrorist enters Greece on a dinghy with a fake passport, can travel all the way to Paris and then shoot dozens of people. THAT isn't cloud cuckooland. THAT isn't propaganda. THAT is a historical fact. And THAT is not a security arrangement I wish to continue with thank you very much. Excellent post.
I bet that will get some of the remainers on here scurrying for their Brussels briefing notes.
You may be in for a long wait, it took Man4eu nearly 2 weeks to come back with any kind of real reply to a link I posted about the EU forcing Britain into the whale meat trade. If it takes 2 weeks from this point though we'll already have voted.
Maybe there was a training course in Brussels at the time. "Nah I was delighted to answer that load of claptrap. I expect he was at a UKIP briefing at the time | |||
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" They've got recent knowledge of the security situation and how it's handled and their words are telling us not to believe the cloud cuckooland views coming from the Brexit propaganda team Ignoring the childish 'cloud cuckooland' and 'propaganda' nonsense lets cut to the chase on security shall we? The UK has the most effective Intelligence and counter espionage outfits in the world. We are very highly regarded by the USA for the quality and accuracy of our Intell. GCHQ provides many times more Intell. to the other countries in the EU than we ever get from them. That will continue post-Brexit. In the last 16 years we have had 3 terrorist acts here in the UK: May 2013 when Lee Rigby was murdered; June 2007 at Glasgow Airport and of course July 2007 with the London bombings. They were all home grown terrorists. we have had NO attacks from outside the UK since the last IRA bombing in Birmingham in 2001. And it is BECAUSE we have had years of the IRA that we are the best. That will continue post-Brexit. We also have the best trained, equipped and capable military forces in the EU. Its why France wants to join with us in expanding their military and fast reaction capability independently of the EU. That will continue post-Brexit. We are rated as No. 1 in 'Soft Power' in the world. Other countries listen and respect us more than any other. That will continue and quite possibly improve post-Brexit. We also happen to be the largest contributor to NATO in hard cash and GDP terms (2%) in the EU. And it is NATO not the EU that has kept peace in Europe since WWII. To believe otherwise really is in some land of the cuckoos. That will continue post-Brexit. The EU as a body contributes nothing to security. It is the combined efforts of individual nation states that achieve whatever is achieved. It just happens the UK is the best connected and capable Nation State at this particular game. And one can certainly argue that the EU has seriously damaged the security of Europe because of its politically dominated dogma of 'free movement of people' and the creation of the Schengen Agreement on open borders. So a terrorist enters Greece on a dinghy with a fake passport, can travel all the way to Paris and then shoot dozens of people. THAT isn't cloud cuckooland. THAT isn't propaganda. THAT is a historical fact. And THAT is not a security arrangement I wish to continue with thank you very much." And of course all of that smoke screen was totally irrelevant to the point that was being discussed which was about the views of former heads of MI5 and MI6. However, since you raised it, you and your Brexit pals don't want the EU to have a joint view on security or to be working together on a European basis. It takes a lot of nerve to rant on about what the EU does as being ineffective when you don't want to have a common EU approach at all. The right thing to do,as recommended by recent former heads of MI5 and MI6 is work together with the EU and stop trying to destroy something that is for the good and security of us all. I'll take the word of MI5 and MI6 experts well before any contribution from you, thanks very much. The NATO is the be all and end all of peace in Europe line is daft beyond belief. You don't get peace by overwhelming military power, you get dictatorship. You get peace when the armed forces work in conjunction with civil authorities to provide a prosperous, democratic environment under the rule of law. Neither one nor the other is supreme in maintaining a peaceful environment and it's complete nonsense to say otherwise. The good old fashioned little England jingoistic approach to NATO is laughable. There are 22 EU countries in Nato including western Europe's biggest nuclear power, France. It's an alliance - not just the UK. It's always been an alliance with a significant percentage of EU countries (and before they joined the EU, the EFTA countries). It's blinkered jingoism to roll out NATO as an argument as if it was a major project with the UK alone. NATO itself in its strategy recognises the contribution of the EU alongside it in keeping the peace. I'll take NATOs word for that rather than yours, thanks very much. If there is a conflict in Europe from the normally expected NATO enemy in Russia, it'll be the Germans, Poles, the Czechs, the Slovaks, the Hungarians, the Lithuanians and so on who feel the brunt of the military offensive NATO is designed for. It's real nationalistic cheek to belittle that - the people of Eastern europe have plenty of experience of Russian tanks rolling into their streets when Putin's predecessors got pissed off. Finally thanks for pointing out that there have only been 3 attacks in mainland Britain over many years and they've all been home grown. It kind of makes a total nonsense of the whole brexit argument about security. It seems that we are already safe within our borders and all that rubbish about protecting the borders from you lot in Brexit land is just that - rubbish - from cloud cuckoo land | |||
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" Very good post, the trouble with a lot of this debate is that too many have fallen for the "we wont be able to sell stuff" line from the remain camp, the WTO rules will trump any eu ones as a default position " Just on the WTO rules thing. Of course given we have a £61 Bn a year Trade Deficit with EU countries (not the EU itself as it buys and sells nothing but likes our cash) then a 10% tariff war would add £6 Bn a year to the UK Treasury. Nett. That will not happen for one reason: Germany. OK add a second : France. There will be a deal with the EU even if its a WTO deal and not the Tariff free deal that is best for every country. Of course we will carry on trading happily as we currently do now with every other country, especially Commonwealth countries, because we already have Bilateral Trade Agreements in place. Contrary to the 'Remain' spin machine. It is a real shame people like Obama, Trudeau and others are ignorant of the simple fact we trade with them on OUR deals not EU deals. The UK Government said so in September 2012. And why the USA, for example, is our biggest export market, biggest inward investing partner and the biggest market for UK investment. We did £6.4 Bn trade with the USA in February alone. That will continue post-Brexit because it is nothing to do with the EU. We have even better terms with Canada because we are both part of the Commonwealth. We share terms better than those enjoyed by Germany, France or every other EU country. Same with Australia and New Zealand despite what their PMs say. People will always trade. Its up to the EU if they want their countries to maintain their £61 Bn a year advantage .... | |||
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"Another nobody on a brexit sinking ship It's the EU that's a sinking ship that's why we need to leave on June 23rd. I'm sure the last figures I saw was that EU growth was picking up. In fact if you strip out the effect of immigration from our GDP figures, I think you'll find the underlying trend for our own economy is far from rosy" It's also true that, whilst the proportion of the trade we do with the EU has dropped from just above 50& to just below 50% in the last 10 years, the actual amount of trade we do with the EU has actually gone up. Our trade with the EU had gone up and our trade with the rest of the world has gone up even more. Which sort off shows that it's not a choice between Europe and the world because, currently, we're doing pretty well trading with both Europe and the rest of the world. You don't gain new customers by kicking your richest, best and biggest customer into touch. | |||
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" stop trying to destroy something that is for the good and security of us all. " You think it is for the good and security of all of us even though the head of interpol said "The EU may as well hang a sign out saying Terrorists welcome here". | |||
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" Just on the WTO rules thing. Of course given we have a £61 Bn a year Trade Deficit with EU countries (not the EU itself as it buys and sells nothing but likes our cash) then a 10% tariff war would add £6 Bn a year to the UK Treasury. Nett. That will not happen for one reason: Germany. OK add a second : France " If the UK adds a 10% tariff and the UK treasury gets 10% net, then the British people who will be buying those imports will be paying that 10% plus, of course, VAT on it. That money that miraculously goes into the treasury isn't paid by anyone else except the consumer in the UK to the tax authorities in the UK. When the people of the UK eventually realise that whichever Brexit 'expert' they listen to they end up paying even more in Brexit tax, they'll know the sensible approach is to remain. | |||
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" Trade volumes are far more important than trade surpluses or deficits. The reality is is that almost 50% of our exports go to the EU while the EU exports only about 10% to us. We all know that most of this trade would carry on one way or another regardless but any drop in this trade will have about 5 times the effect on the UK that it would have on the EU. And that is why the real strength in any trade negotiations really lies with the EU, not the UK. " Whoaaaa ... You what? So the fact we have a £61 Bn a year Trade Deficit is nothing to consider? The value of goods means nothing? So why are Tariffs ranged on the price of a commodity and its type not the volume? So the fact we sell high value goods like cars, for example, and buy low value but high volume goods like grain, for example the two are the same? And its interesting you trot out that old EU nutmeg about percentages. When of course the EU itself trades nothing. Zero. Zilch. It is individual countries that trade not the EU. So when we have a massive trade deficit with say Germany they will happily stand by and allow the EU to play politics with their biggest car market? Hmmmm. I suspect Mrs Merkel will not be wanting to phone the MDs of BMW or VW to say 'Sorry we have just closed off the UK to your cars!'. It will never happen. Here is a percentage for you: The EU accounts for about 15% of world trade. It has declined from about 40% when we joined. China and the United States export more. They also import more. Take the UK out of the EU figures it looks even worse. And we can already trade freely with both China and the USA. | |||
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" stop trying to destroy something that is for the good and security of us all. You think it is for the good and security of all of us even though the head of interpol said "The EU may as well hang a sign out saying Terrorists welcome here". " Yep, because I'm adopting the Brexiteers approach to negative comments and pointing out that he is an american so therefore knows absolutely nothing about Europe and has no right to interfere in our politics. Or alternatively, since only Brexiteers are allowed to adopt the Ostric approach, his is one view and though it makes an excellent sound bite for you it just means that we can work on improving the security situation - as have said all the relevant experts from MI5, MI6 etc etc | |||
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"Another nobody on a brexit sinking ship It's the EU that's a sinking ship that's why we need to leave on June 23rd. I'm sure the last figures I saw was that EU growth was picking up. In fact if you strip out the effect of immigration from our GDP figures, I think you'll find the underlying trend for our own economy is far from rosy It's also true that, whilst the proportion of the trade we do with the EU has dropped from just above 50& to just below 50% in the last 10 years, the actual amount of trade we do with the EU has actually gone up. Our trade with the EU had gone up and our trade with the rest of the world has gone up even more. Which sort off shows that it's not a choice between Europe and the world because, currently, we're doing pretty well trading with both Europe and the rest of the world. You don't gain new customers by kicking your richest, best and biggest customer into touch. " Figures from the house of commons library as quoted by Conservative MP Bill Cash in the house of commons during an EU debate..... "In relation to Britain's relationship with the other 27 countries in the EU Britain has a trade deficit of £67.8 billion pounds annually. When the same is applied to Germany then Germany has an annual trade surplus with the other 27 countries in the EU of £81.8 billion. So a loss for Britain and a gain for Germany no wonder they are so keen for us to stay in, and why they will want a good deal with us if we leave as we are one of their biggest export markets. In contrast Britain has an annual trade surplus of £31.1 billion with the rest of the world outside of the EU and growing each year". | |||
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" Trade volumes are far more important than trade surpluses or deficits. The reality is is that almost 50% of our exports go to the EU while the EU exports only about 10% to us. We all know that most of this trade would carry on one way or another regardless but any drop in this trade will have about 5 times the effect on the UK that it would have on the EU. And that is why the real strength in any trade negotiations really lies with the EU, not the UK. Whoaaaa ... You what? So the fact we have a £61 Bn a year Trade Deficit is nothing to consider? The value of goods means nothing? So why are Tariffs ranged on the price of a commodity and its type not the volume? So the fact we sell high value goods like cars, for example, and buy low value but high volume goods like grain, for example the two are the same? And its interesting you trot out that old EU nutmeg about percentages. When of course the EU itself trades nothing. Zero. Zilch. It is individual countries that trade not the EU. So when we have a massive trade deficit with say Germany they will happily stand by and allow the EU to play politics with their biggest car market? Hmmmm. I suspect Mrs Merkel will not be wanting to phone the MDs of BMW or VW to say 'Sorry we have just closed off the UK to your cars!'. It will never happen. Here is a percentage for you: The EU accounts for about 15% of world trade. It has declined from about 40% when we joined. China and the United States export more. They also import more. Take the UK out of the EU figures it looks even worse. And we can already trade freely with both China and the USA." Ah we're in that dreamy place where the EU doesn't exist, it's the countries that do. Except of course when we need to say that the EU as an entity has declining trade, then all of a sudden pffft it does exist. That's the dreamy place called cloud cuckooland | |||
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"Another nobody on a brexit sinking ship It's the EU that's a sinking ship that's why we need to leave on June 23rd. I'm sure the last figures I saw was that EU growth was picking up. In fact if you strip out the effect of immigration from our GDP figures, I think you'll find the underlying trend for our own economy is far from rosy It's also true that, whilst the proportion of the trade we do with the EU has dropped from just above 50& to just below 50% in the last 10 years, the actual amount of trade we do with the EU has actually gone up. Our trade with the EU had gone up and our trade with the rest of the world has gone up even more. Which sort off shows that it's not a choice between Europe and the world because, currently, we're doing pretty well trading with both Europe and the rest of the world. You don't gain new customers by kicking your richest, best and biggest customer into touch. Figures from the house of commons library as quoted by Conservative MP Bill Cash in the house of commons during an EU debate..... "In relation to Britain's relationship with the other 27 countries in the EU Britain has a trade deficit of £67.8 billion pounds annually. When the same is applied to Germany then Germany has an annual trade surplus with the other 27 countries in the EU of £81.8 billion. So a loss for Britain and a gain for Germany no wonder they are so keen for us to stay in, and why they will want a good deal with us if we leave as we are one of their biggest export markets. In contrast Britain has an annual trade surplus of £31.1 billion with the rest of the world outside of the EU and growing each year". " Is there an appendix in the house of commons library that explains to you how to tell the UK consumer that they can't have all those imports? You see all that money flowing out of the country isn't as a result huge armed robbery by Germany, things are coming in the other direction and people in the UK seem to want lots of them. I expect you can explain to the man on the Clapham Omnibus where he's going to get his consumer goods if you threaten that trade? | |||
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"Another nobody on a brexit sinking ship It's the EU that's a sinking ship that's why we need to leave on June 23rd. I'm sure the last figures I saw was that EU growth was picking up. In fact if you strip out the effect of immigration from our GDP figures, I think you'll find the underlying trend for our own economy is far from rosy The only continent with worse economic growth than the EU over the last 10 years is Antarctica. Also sky high unemployment in Greece, Spain, Italy and Portugal. Greece look likely to need yet another bailout soon. The EU is failing. " But still the biggest, richest market in the world. A 1% growth of a very big, rich market (US$16+ trillion GDP in 2015) is worth more or about the same as a 10% growth in some small or poor market in Africa (US$2.4 trillion) ot South America (US$3.2 trillion). Even China is smaller than the EU and much less rich per person (US$13 trillion). Comparing the growth of small or poor economies with a rich, large economy gives a totally misleading view of the real situation. The EU economy is growing at about 2%, which is about average. | |||
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"The EU makes laws for all member states. WE uphold them to the letter, the others do as they please. We need out so we can do as we please. Which includes sorting out our own government." That's a little non sequitur. Either the EU makes rules for the whole EU and everyone one has to follow them or no one has to. If the others can 'do as they please' within the EU then so can and could we, which really means, following that logic, there is absolutely no reason to leave at all. | |||
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"If we can leave Europe and have full control of our immigration AND still be able to trade within the EU without being penalised then I'm all for it, but i cant ever see that happening or being allowed to happen. Of course it will happen. We buy more of their stuff than thy buy of ours. They won't not take our money." I hear a lot of people saying this ...the real question is why would France and Germany treat UK citizens better than they treat their own citizens? France and Germany both pay into the EU and benefit from the free trade so letting the UK trade without paying into the EU is basically shooting themselves in the foot ...if it was the other way around would you be happy for the UK to be paying millions a week for free trade and France or Germany get this same trade for free? | |||
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"Another nobody on a brexit sinking ship It's the EU that's a sinking ship that's why we need to leave on June 23rd. I'm sure the last figures I saw was that EU growth was picking up. In fact if you strip out the effect of immigration from our GDP figures, I think you'll find the underlying trend for our own economy is far from rosy It's also true that, whilst the proportion of the trade we do with the EU has dropped from just above 50& to just below 50% in the last 10 years, the actual amount of trade we do with the EU has actually gone up. Our trade with the EU had gone up and our trade with the rest of the world has gone up even more. Which sort off shows that it's not a choice between Europe and the world because, currently, we're doing pretty well trading with both Europe and the rest of the world. You don't gain new customers by kicking your richest, best and biggest customer into touch. Figures from the house of commons library as quoted by Conservative MP Bill Cash in the house of commons during an EU debate..... "In relation to Britain's relationship with the other 27 countries in the EU Britain has a trade deficit of £67.8 billion pounds annually. When the same is applied to Germany then Germany has an annual trade surplus with the other 27 countries in the EU of £81.8 billion. So a loss for Britain and a gain for Germany no wonder they are so keen for us to stay in, and why they will want a good deal with us if we leave as we are one of their biggest export markets. In contrast Britain has an annual trade surplus of £31.1 billion with the rest of the world outside of the EU and growing each year". Is there an appendix in the house of commons library that explains to you how to tell the UK consumer that they can't have all those imports? You see all that money flowing out of the country isn't as a result huge armed robbery by Germany, things are coming in the other direction and people in the UK seem to want lots of them. I expect you can explain to the man on the Clapham Omnibus where he's going to get his consumer goods if you threaten that trade?" It is exactly why Germany will want a good deal with us if we leave then as they are selling so many goods here. There are plenty of other countries around the world outside of the EU the man on the Clapham Omnibus can buy his goods from besides the EU. It's this little EU attitude from Remainers I cannot stand and people like you don't seem to be able to see beyond the borders of the EU. It is people like you who are inwards looking, open your eyes and realise there is a big wide world out there to trade with. | |||
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"Another nobody on a brexit sinking ship It's the EU that's a sinking ship that's why we need to leave on June 23rd. I'm sure the last figures I saw was that EU growth was picking up. In fact if you strip out the effect of immigration from our GDP figures, I think you'll find the underlying trend for our own economy is far from rosy The only continent with worse economic growth than the EU over the last 10 years is Antarctica. Also sky high unemployment in Greece, Spain, Italy and Portugal. Greece look likely to need yet another bailout soon. The EU is failing. But still the biggest, richest market in the world. A 1% growth of a very big, rich market (US$16+ trillion GDP in 2015) is worth more or about the same as a 10% growth in some small or poor market in Africa (US$2.4 trillion) ot South America (US$3.2 trillion). Even China is smaller than the EU and much less rich per person (US$13 trillion). Comparing the growth of small or poor economies with a rich, large economy gives a totally misleading view of the real situation. The EU economy is growing at about 2%, which is about average. " The only continent the EU has better growth rate than is Antarctica, hardly anything to brag about. | |||
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"Another nobody on a brexit sinking ship It's the EU that's a sinking ship that's why we need to leave on June 23rd. I'm sure the last figures I saw was that EU growth was picking up. In fact if you strip out the effect of immigration from our GDP figures, I think you'll find the underlying trend for our own economy is far from rosy The only continent with worse economic growth than the EU over the last 10 years is Antarctica. Also sky high unemployment in Greece, Spain, Italy and Portugal. Greece look likely to need yet another bailout soon. The EU is failing. But still the biggest, richest market in the world. A 1% growth of a very big, rich market (US$16+ trillion GDP in 2015) is worth more or about the same as a 10% growth in some small or poor market in Africa (US$2.4 trillion) ot South America (US$3.2 trillion). Even China is smaller than the EU and much less rich per person (US$13 trillion). Comparing the growth of small or poor economies with a rich, large economy gives a totally misleading view of the real situation. The EU economy is growing at about 2%, which is about average. The only continent the EU has better growth rate than is Antarctica, hardly anything to brag about. " | |||
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"If you don't laugh when you read things like the following you have to cry: Just on the WTO rules thing. Of course given we have a £61 Bn a year Trade Deficit with EU countries (not the EU itself as it buys and sells nothing but likes our cash) then a 10% tariff war would add £6 Bn a year to the UK Treasury. Nett. That will not happen for one reason: Germany. OK add a second : France If the UK adds a 10% tariff and the UK treasury gets 10% net, then the British people who will be buying those imports will be paying that 10% plus, of course, VAT on it. That money that miraculously goes into the treasury isn't paid by anyone else except the consumer in the UK to the tax authorities in the UK. When the people of the UK eventually realise that whichever Brexit 'expert' they listen to they end up paying even more in Brexit tax, they'll know the sensible approach is to remain. " Once again you write words without actually reading mine. I just said: "It will never happen". But if you want an economic argument then fine. If we had 10% Tariffs on EU goods then that would be paid by the importer on importation. That would add 10% to the ex factory price not the Retail Price. Which may or may not put people off buying those imported goods. No doubt the Germans will make the same judgements about Jaguars or whatever. Whichever way you cut it adding Tariffs will have a negative effect on overall trade. Which, inter alia, will reduce the trade deficit. Which, again, will damage the EU countries more than us as we have to fund the cash for that trade deficit by borrowing which forms part of our overall PSBR. So the EU is a really good idea for trade? The standard tariff for importing cars to the U.S. is 2.5 percent of their value. However the European Union charges a flat rate of 10 percent on imported cars from the USA. Hence TTIP. So when we leave and no other agreement is reached our car manufacturers will face a 10% Tariff and you can bet we will add a similar Tariff on EU made cars. But here is thing. Top Ten cars sold in the UK are: 1: Ford Fiesta - Imported 2: VW Golf - Imported 3: Ford Focus - Imported 4: Vauxhall Corsa - Imported 5: Nissan Qashqai - Made here 6: Vauxhall Astra - Made here 7: VW Polo - Imported 8: Mini - Made here (and imported) 9: Mercedes C Class - Imported 10: BMW 3 series - Imported Right there is why Germany will do a deal WE want. And what Germany says the EU does. They need us more than we need them by a long margin. | |||
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"Do you really think so ? The main underlying prerequisite for any none EU member to have free trade within the EU is to allow free movement of people in their country from the EU I just dont see the UK being given special treatment Yes I do. The French will still want us to buyt their apples & cheese, the Germans their cars and so on. They may not want to buy from us but it is a little known fact that they don't buy much from us anyway. The 40 odd % of our exports that go to the EU do not all remain in the EU. It's called the 'Rotterdam Effect.' An unknown quantity then get sent on further afield. Norway and Switzerland have trade agreements with the EU but none of the political stuff we have to put up with." That's true for Norway and Switzerland but, in order to get that trade agreement with the EU they both have had to accept free movement of people. A Norway or Switzerland deal would be worse than what we have now. Their trade agreements does not give them the same level of access we have to the single market, they both had to agree to free movement of people (which included having to join Schengen), they pay either similar or more per head to the EU as we do but neither has a real say in making any of the rules. A Norway / Switzerland deal would be like voting for all the things BREXIT say is wrong with the EU with either non or restrictions on the benefits we currently have. | |||
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"Another nobody on a brexit sinking ship It's the EU that's a sinking ship that's why we need to leave on June 23rd. I'm sure the last figures I saw was that EU growth was picking up. In fact if you strip out the effect of immigration from our GDP figures, I think you'll find the underlying trend for our own economy is far from rosy It's also true that, whilst the proportion of the trade we do with the EU has dropped from just above 50& to just below 50% in the last 10 years, the actual amount of trade we do with the EU has actually gone up. Our trade with the EU had gone up and our trade with the rest of the world has gone up even more. Which sort off shows that it's not a choice between Europe and the world because, currently, we're doing pretty well trading with both Europe and the rest of the world. You don't gain new customers by kicking your richest, best and biggest customer into touch. Figures from the house of commons library as quoted by Conservative MP Bill Cash in the house of commons during an EU debate..... "In relation to Britain's relationship with the other 27 countries in the EU Britain has a trade deficit of £67.8 billion pounds annually. When the same is applied to Germany then Germany has an annual trade surplus with the other 27 countries in the EU of £81.8 billion. So a loss for Britain and a gain for Germany no wonder they are so keen for us to stay in, and why they will want a good deal with us if we leave as we are one of their biggest export markets. In contrast Britain has an annual trade surplus of £31.1 billion with the rest of the world outside of the EU and growing each year". Is there an appendix in the house of commons library that explains to you how to tell the UK consumer that they can't have all those imports? You see all that money flowing out of the country isn't as a result huge armed robbery by Germany, things are coming in the other direction and people in the UK seem to want lots of them. I expect you can explain to the man on the Clapham Omnibus where he's going to get his consumer goods if you threaten that trade? It is exactly why Germany will want a good deal with us if we leave then as they are selling so many goods here. There are plenty of other countries around the world outside of the EU the man on the Clapham Omnibus can buy his goods from besides the EU. It's this little EU attitude from Remainers I cannot stand and people like you don't seem to be able to see beyond the borders of the EU. It is people like you who are inwards looking, open your eyes and realise there is a big wide world out there to trade with. " I can see plenty of countries that we already trade with beyond the borders of the EU with no problems whatsoever and it's not going to get any easier by leaving the EU. About 60 of them we have free trade deals with because of existing negotiations completed by the EU and there are lots of businesses successfully trading elsewhere, like JCB with its factories in India and China to service that part of the world. What I can't see is you sourcing German goods that people like from India or China - or are they going to do cheap knock off VWs for you? Right now we have free trade agreements with EU countries. It's only Brexiteers who want to impose tariffs. Oh actually some want to impose tariffs (Dyson style) and some don't (Minford style). You guys don't have a plan. That may be why you've got stuck in the house of commons library quoting the same old stuff again and again without realising its implications. You can keep your brexit tax, none of us want to pay it. Oh and I forget to remind you recently that Minford, your Brexit chief economist was the architect of the poll tax. That was a great success wasn't it? I bet he's looking for even bigger riots as the Brexit folly unravels if the vote goes that way. No doubt that will be the fault of the EU too ... | |||
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"If we can leave Europe and have full control of our immigration AND still be able to trade within the EU without being penalised then I'm all for it, but i cant ever see that happening or being allowed to happen. Of course it will happen. We buy more of their stuff than thy buy of ours. They won't not take our money. Do you really think so ? The main underlying prerequisite for any none EU member to have free trade within the EU is to allow free movement of people in their country from the EU I just dont see the UK being given special treatment We don't currently get free trade with the EU because we are paying billions every year to access the single market. You could call our EU membership fee a tariff. " You could if you wanted to mislead. However, if you just wanted to give people the facts to help them make their decision, you'd call it what it is, a membership fee, and not lie about the amount we actually pay. | |||
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"Another nobody on a brexit sinking ship It's the EU that's a sinking ship that's why we need to leave on June 23rd. I'm sure the last figures I saw was that EU growth was picking up. In fact if you strip out the effect of immigration from our GDP figures, I think you'll find the underlying trend for our own economy is far from rosy It's also true that, whilst the proportion of the trade we do with the EU has dropped from just above 50& to just below 50% in the last 10 years, the actual amount of trade we do with the EU has actually gone up. Our trade with the EU had gone up and our trade with the rest of the world has gone up even more. Which sort off shows that it's not a choice between Europe and the world because, currently, we're doing pretty well trading with both Europe and the rest of the world. You don't gain new customers by kicking your richest, best and biggest customer into touch. Figures from the house of commons library as quoted by Conservative MP Bill Cash in the house of commons during an EU debate..... "In relation to Britain's relationship with the other 27 countries in the EU Britain has a trade deficit of £67.8 billion pounds annually. When the same is applied to Germany then Germany has an annual trade surplus with the other 27 countries in the EU of £81.8 billion. So a loss for Britain and a gain for Germany no wonder they are so keen for us to stay in, and why they will want a good deal with us if we leave as we are one of their biggest export markets. In contrast Britain has an annual trade surplus of £31.1 billion with the rest of the world outside of the EU and growing each year". Is there an appendix in the house of commons library that explains to you how to tell the UK consumer that they can't have all those imports? You see all that money flowing out of the country isn't as a result huge armed robbery by Germany, things are coming in the other direction and people in the UK seem to want lots of them. I expect you can explain to the man on the Clapham Omnibus where he's going to get his consumer goods if you threaten that trade? It is exactly why Germany will want a good deal with us if we leave then as they are selling so many goods here. There are plenty of other countries around the world outside of the EU the man on the Clapham Omnibus can buy his goods from besides the EU. It's this little EU attitude from Remainers I cannot stand and people like you don't seem to be able to see beyond the borders of the EU. It is people like you who are inwards looking, open your eyes and realise there is a big wide world out there to trade with. I can see plenty of countries that we already trade with beyond the borders of the EU with no problems whatsoever and it's not going to get any easier by leaving the EU. About 60 of them we have free trade deals with because of existing negotiations completed by the EU and there are lots of businesses successfully trading elsewhere, like JCB with its factories in India and China to service that part of the world. What I can't see is you sourcing German goods that people like from India or China - or are they going to do cheap knock off VWs for you? Right now we have free trade agreements with EU countries. It's only Brexiteers who want to impose tariffs. Oh actually some want to impose tariffs (Dyson style) and some don't (Minford style). You guys don't have a plan. That may be why you've got stuck in the house of commons library quoting the same old stuff again and again without realising its implications. You can keep your brexit tax, none of us want to pay it. Oh and I forget to remind you recently that Minford, your Brexit chief economist was the architect of the poll tax. That was a great success wasn't it? I bet he's looking for even bigger riots as the Brexit folly unravels if the vote goes that way. No doubt that will be the fault of the EU too ..." We don't have a free trade deal with the EU. We pay billions of pounds every year in EU membership fees to access the single market! | |||
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"If you don't laugh when you read things like the following you have to cry: Just on the WTO rules thing. Of course given we have a £61 Bn a year Trade Deficit with EU countries (not the EU itself as it buys and sells nothing but likes our cash) then a 10% tariff war would add £6 Bn a year to the UK Treasury. Nett. That will not happen for one reason: Germany. OK add a second : France If the UK adds a 10% tariff and the UK treasury gets 10% net, then the British people who will be buying those imports will be paying that 10% plus, of course, VAT on it. That money that miraculously goes into the treasury isn't paid by anyone else except the consumer in the UK to the tax authorities in the UK. When the people of the UK eventually realise that whichever Brexit 'expert' they listen to they end up paying even more in Brexit tax, they'll know the sensible approach is to remain. Once again you write words without actually reading mine. I just said: "It will never happen". But if you want an economic argument then fine. If we had 10% Tariffs on EU goods then that would be paid by the importer on importation. That would add 10% to the ex factory price not the Retail Price. Which may or may not put people off buying those imported goods. No doubt the Germans will make the same judgements about Jaguars or whatever. Whichever way you cut it adding Tariffs will have a negative effect on overall trade. Which, inter alia, will reduce the trade deficit. Which, again, will damage the EU countries more than us as we have to fund the cash for that trade deficit by borrowing which forms part of our overall PSBR. So the EU is a really good idea for trade? The standard tariff for importing cars to the U.S. is 2.5 percent of their value. However the European Union charges a flat rate of 10 percent on imported cars from the USA. Hence TTIP. So when we leave and no other agreement is reached our car manufacturers will face a 10% Tariff and you can bet we will add a similar Tariff on EU made cars. But here is thing. Top Ten cars sold in the UK are: 1: Ford Fiesta - Imported 2: VW Golf - Imported 3: Ford Focus - Imported 4: Vauxhall Corsa - Imported 5: Nissan Qashqai - Made here 6: Vauxhall Astra - Made here 7: VW Polo - Imported 8: Mini - Made here (and imported) 9: Mercedes C Class - Imported 10: BMW 3 series - Imported Right there is why Germany will do a deal WE want. And what Germany says the EU does. They need us more than we need them by a long margin." Which is a point I've been making on here for a while. Britain is also France's largest export market for wine. Imagine the French government telling Epernay, Bordeaux, or Beaune that they can't sell to Britain. Or even the Spanish government telling the produce farmers of Murcia and Almeria (already unemployment blackspots) that the British market is off limits. I don't think so. | |||
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"If we can leave Europe and have full control of our immigration AND still be able to trade within the EU without being penalised then I'm all for it, but i cant ever see that happening or being allowed to happen. Of course it will happen. We buy more of their stuff than thy buy of ours. They won't not take our money. Do you really think so ? The main underlying prerequisite for any none EU member to have free trade within the EU is to allow free movement of people in their country from the EU I just dont see the UK being given special treatment We don't currently get free trade with the EU because we are paying billions every year to access the single market. You could call our EU membership fee a tariff. You could if you wanted to mislead. However, if you just wanted to give people the facts to help them make their decision, you'd call it what it is, a membership fee, and not lie about the amount we actually pay." It's not free trade if you are paying billions every year in EU membership fees for the privilege to access the single market. | |||
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" A Norway / Switzerland deal would be like voting for all the things BREXIT say is wrong with the EU with either non or restrictions on the benefits we currently have. " Blimey! For once I agree with you. It will never happen. We will create a UK trade agreement with the EU that suits us both. And we have two years to do it otherwise we resort to WTO rules. | |||
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"If you don't laugh when you read things like the following you have to cry: Just on the WTO rules thing. Of course given we have a £61 Bn a year Trade Deficit with EU countries (not the EU itself as it buys and sells nothing but likes our cash) then a 10% tariff war would add £6 Bn a year to the UK Treasury. Nett. That will not happen for one reason: Germany. OK add a second : France If the UK adds a 10% tariff and the UK treasury gets 10% net, then the British people who will be buying those imports will be paying that 10% plus, of course, VAT on it. That money that miraculously goes into the treasury isn't paid by anyone else except the consumer in the UK to the tax authorities in the UK. When the people of the UK eventually realise that whichever Brexit 'expert' they listen to they end up paying even more in Brexit tax, they'll know the sensible approach is to remain. Once again you write words without actually reading mine. I just said: "It will never happen". But if you want an economic argument then fine. If we had 10% Tariffs on EU goods then that would be paid by the importer on importation. That would add 10% to the ex factory price not the Retail Price. Which may or may not put people off buying those imported goods. No doubt the Germans will make the same judgements about Jaguars or whatever. Whichever way you cut it adding Tariffs will have a negative effect on overall trade. Which, inter alia, will reduce the trade deficit. Which, again, will damage the EU countries more than us as we have to fund the cash for that trade deficit by borrowing which forms part of our overall PSBR. So the EU is a really good idea for trade? The standard tariff for importing cars to the U.S. is 2.5 percent of their value. However the European Union charges a flat rate of 10 percent on imported cars from the USA. Hence TTIP. So when we leave and no other agreement is reached our car manufacturers will face a 10% Tariff and you can bet we will add a similar Tariff on EU made cars. But here is thing. Top Ten cars sold in the UK are: 1: Ford Fiesta - Imported 2: VW Golf - Imported 3: Ford Focus - Imported 4: Vauxhall Corsa - Imported 5: Nissan Qashqai - Made here 6: Vauxhall Astra - Made here 7: VW Polo - Imported 8: Mini - Made here (and imported) 9: Mercedes C Class - Imported 10: BMW 3 series - Imported Right there is why Germany will do a deal WE want. And what Germany says the EU does. They need us more than we need them by a long margin." I didn't miss anything about the 10% and £ 6 billion, which were exactly the numbers you used. My point was that the UK consumer will want your arse in a sling if you try that long before the French and Germans get a look in. Quite rightly too, because it would be a straightforward Brexit tax (plus add VAT and any other duties due). It wouldn't be 10% of £60 billion either - that's the gap, any duty would be on the whole import bill- Dyson quoted a cost of £18 billion when he came up with his figures. As far as I'm concerned when i have to pay a price plus 10% plus VAT I'm paying more. I don't care if someone in germany is also paying more becasue I don't get that 10%, the German treasury does. None of the talk of imposing duties on EU goods makes any sense for the UK consumer, since we are already in a duty free area. There's no point you raising the issue of non sensical tariffs, then dismissing them as if it'll be the French and Germans who object, when it'll be our own people that suffer. Oh and you forget, its Brexit who want to discuss tariffs and trade wars,. With the remain model we don't have those tariffs, we don't have that trade war. And we're quite competently trading across the rest of the world too. Please keep your brexit taxes and your trade wars to yourself, they're not needed when we remain in the EU. | |||
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"If you don't laugh when you read things like the following you have to cry: Just on the WTO rules thing. Of course given we have a £61 Bn a year Trade Deficit with EU countries (not the EU itself as it buys and sells nothing but likes our cash) then a 10% tariff war would add £6 Bn a year to the UK Treasury. Nett. That will not happen for one reason: Germany. OK add a second : France If the UK adds a 10% tariff and the UK treasury gets 10% net, then the British people who will be buying those imports will be paying that 10% plus, of course, VAT on it. That money that miraculously goes into the treasury isn't paid by anyone else except the consumer in the UK to the tax authorities in the UK. When the people of the UK eventually realise that whichever Brexit 'expert' they listen to they end up paying even more in Brexit tax, they'll know the sensible approach is to remain. Once again you write words without actually reading mine. I just said: "It will never happen". But if you want an economic argument then fine. If we had 10% Tariffs on EU goods then that would be paid by the importer on importation. That would add 10% to the ex factory price not the Retail Price. Which may or may not put people off buying those imported goods. No doubt the Germans will make the same judgements about Jaguars or whatever. Whichever way you cut it adding Tariffs will have a negative effect on overall trade. Which, inter alia, will reduce the trade deficit. Which, again, will damage the EU countries more than us as we have to fund the cash for that trade deficit by borrowing which forms part of our overall PSBR. So the EU is a really good idea for trade? The standard tariff for importing cars to the U.S. is 2.5 percent of their value. However the European Union charges a flat rate of 10 percent on imported cars from the USA. Hence TTIP. So when we leave and no other agreement is reached our car manufacturers will face a 10% Tariff and you can bet we will add a similar Tariff on EU made cars. But here is thing. Top Ten cars sold in the UK are: 1: Ford Fiesta - Imported 2: VW Golf - Imported 3: Ford Focus - Imported 4: Vauxhall Corsa - Imported 5: Nissan Qashqai - Made here 6: Vauxhall Astra - Made here 7: VW Polo - Imported 8: Mini - Made here (and imported) 9: Mercedes C Class - Imported 10: BMW 3 series - Imported Right there is why Germany will do a deal WE want. And what Germany says the EU does. They need us more than we need them by a long margin. Which is a point I've been making on here for a while. Britain is also France's largest export market for wine. Imagine the French government telling Epernay, Bordeaux, or Beaune that they can't sell to Britain. Or even the Spanish government telling the produce farmers of Murcia and Almeria (already unemployment blackspots) that the British market is off limits. I don't think so. " It's only brexiteers who want this trade war. Well half of them, the other half want totally free trade, so the rest of us have no chance of knowing which view point prevails and it changes from second to second on here. In the remain scenario we don't have those duties. | |||
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"If you don't laugh when you read things like the following you have to cry: Just on the WTO rules thing. Of course given we have a £61 Bn a year Trade Deficit with EU countries (not the EU itself as it buys and sells nothing but likes our cash) then a 10% tariff war would add £6 Bn a year to the UK Treasury. Nett. That will not happen for one reason: Germany. OK add a second : France If the UK adds a 10% tariff and the UK treasury gets 10% net, then the British people who will be buying those imports will be paying that 10% plus, of course, VAT on it. That money that miraculously goes into the treasury isn't paid by anyone else except the consumer in the UK to the tax authorities in the UK. When the people of the UK eventually realise that whichever Brexit 'expert' they listen to they end up paying even more in Brexit tax, they'll know the sensible approach is to remain. Once again you write words without actually reading mine. I just said: "It will never happen". But if you want an economic argument then fine. If we had 10% Tariffs on EU goods then that would be paid by the importer on importation. That would add 10% to the ex factory price not the Retail Price. Which may or may not put people off buying those imported goods. No doubt the Germans will make the same judgements about Jaguars or whatever. Whichever way you cut it adding Tariffs will have a negative effect on overall trade. Which, inter alia, will reduce the trade deficit. Which, again, will damage the EU countries more than us as we have to fund the cash for that trade deficit by borrowing which forms part of our overall PSBR. So the EU is a really good idea for trade? The standard tariff for importing cars to the U.S. is 2.5 percent of their value. However the European Union charges a flat rate of 10 percent on imported cars from the USA. Hence TTIP. So when we leave and no other agreement is reached our car manufacturers will face a 10% Tariff and you can bet we will add a similar Tariff on EU made cars. But here is thing. Top Ten cars sold in the UK are: 1: Ford Fiesta - Imported 2: VW Golf - Imported 3: Ford Focus - Imported 4: Vauxhall Corsa - Imported 5: Nissan Qashqai - Made here 6: Vauxhall Astra - Made here 7: VW Polo - Imported 8: Mini - Made here (and imported) 9: Mercedes C Class - Imported 10: BMW 3 series - Imported Right there is why Germany will do a deal WE want. And what Germany says the EU does. They need us more than we need them by a long margin. I didn't miss anything about the 10% and £ 6 billion, which were exactly the numbers you used. My point was that the UK consumer will want your arse in a sling if you try that long before the French and Germans get a look in. Quite rightly too, because it would be a straightforward Brexit tax (plus add VAT and any other duties due). It wouldn't be 10% of £60 billion either - that's the gap, any duty would be on the whole import bill- Dyson quoted a cost of £18 billion when he came up with his figures. As far as I'm concerned when i have to pay a price plus 10% plus VAT I'm paying more. I don't care if someone in germany is also paying more becasue I don't get that 10%, the German treasury does. None of the talk of imposing duties on EU goods makes any sense for the UK consumer, since we are already in a duty free area. There's no point you raising the issue of non sensical tariffs, then dismissing them as if it'll be the French and Germans who object, when it'll be our own people that suffer. Oh and you forget, its Brexit who want to discuss tariffs and trade wars,. With the remain model we don't have those tariffs, we don't have that trade war. And we're quite competently trading across the rest of the world too. Please keep your brexit taxes and your trade wars to yourself, they're not needed when we remain in the EU." Pfft once again the billions we pay each year in EU Membership fees to access the single market disappears and you fail to mention it. Anyone would think those billions never existed listening to you. | |||
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"If you don't laugh when you read things like the following you have to cry: Just on the WTO rules thing. Of course given we have a £61 Bn a year Trade Deficit with EU countries (not the EU itself as it buys and sells nothing but likes our cash) then a 10% tariff war would add £6 Bn a year to the UK Treasury. Nett. That will not happen for one reason: Germany. OK add a second : France If the UK adds a 10% tariff and the UK treasury gets 10% net, then the British people who will be buying those imports will be paying that 10% plus, of course, VAT on it. That money that miraculously goes into the treasury isn't paid by anyone else except the consumer in the UK to the tax authorities in the UK. When the people of the UK eventually realise that whichever Brexit 'expert' they listen to they end up paying even more in Brexit tax, they'll know the sensible approach is to remain. Once again you write words without actually reading mine. I just said: "It will never happen". But if you want an economic argument then fine. If we had 10% Tariffs on EU goods then that would be paid by the importer on importation. That would add 10% to the ex factory price not the Retail Price. Which may or may not put people off buying those imported goods. No doubt the Germans will make the same judgements about Jaguars or whatever. Whichever way you cut it adding Tariffs will have a negative effect on overall trade. Which, inter alia, will reduce the trade deficit. Which, again, will damage the EU countries more than us as we have to fund the cash for that trade deficit by borrowing which forms part of our overall PSBR. So the EU is a really good idea for trade? The standard tariff for importing cars to the U.S. is 2.5 percent of their value. However the European Union charges a flat rate of 10 percent on imported cars from the USA. Hence TTIP. So when we leave and no other agreement is reached our car manufacturers will face a 10% Tariff and you can bet we will add a similar Tariff on EU made cars. But here is thing. Top Ten cars sold in the UK are: 1: Ford Fiesta - Imported 2: VW Golf - Imported 3: Ford Focus - Imported 4: Vauxhall Corsa - Imported 5: Nissan Qashqai - Made here 6: Vauxhall Astra - Made here 7: VW Polo - Imported 8: Mini - Made here (and imported) 9: Mercedes C Class - Imported 10: BMW 3 series - Imported Right there is why Germany will do a deal WE want. And what Germany says the EU does. They need us more than we need them by a long margin. Which is a point I've been making on here for a while. Britain is also France's largest export market for wine. Imagine the French government telling Epernay, Bordeaux, or Beaune that they can't sell to Britain. Or even the Spanish government telling the produce farmers of Murcia and Almeria (already unemployment blackspots) that the British market is off limits. I don't think so. It's only brexiteers who want this trade war. Well half of them, the other half want totally free trade, so the rest of us have no chance of knowing which view point prevails and it changes from second to second on here. In the remain scenario we don't have those duties. " Yes you do, it's called an EU membership fee to access the single market. | |||
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"If you don't laugh when you read things like the following you have to cry: Just on the WTO rules thing. Of course given we have a £61 Bn a year Trade Deficit with EU countries (not the EU itself as it buys and sells nothing but likes our cash) then a 10% tariff war would add £6 Bn a year to the UK Treasury. Nett. That will not happen for one reason: Germany. OK add a second : France If the UK adds a 10% tariff and the UK treasury gets 10% net, then the British people who will be buying those imports will be paying that 10% plus, of course, VAT on it. That money that miraculously goes into the treasury isn't paid by anyone else except the consumer in the UK to the tax authorities in the UK. When the people of the UK eventually realise that whichever Brexit 'expert' they listen to they end up paying even more in Brexit tax, they'll know the sensible approach is to remain. Once again you write words without actually reading mine. I just said: "It will never happen". But if you want an economic argument then fine. If we had 10% Tariffs on EU goods then that would be paid by the importer on importation. That would add 10% to the ex factory price not the Retail Price. Which may or may not put people off buying those imported goods. No doubt the Germans will make the same judgements about Jaguars or whatever. Whichever way you cut it adding Tariffs will have a negative effect on overall trade. Which, inter alia, will reduce the trade deficit. Which, again, will damage the EU countries more than us as we have to fund the cash for that trade deficit by borrowing which forms part of our overall PSBR. So the EU is a really good idea for trade? The standard tariff for importing cars to the U.S. is 2.5 percent of their value. However the European Union charges a flat rate of 10 percent on imported cars from the USA. Hence TTIP. So when we leave and no other agreement is reached our car manufacturers will face a 10% Tariff and you can bet we will add a similar Tariff on EU made cars. But here is thing. Top Ten cars sold in the UK are: 1: Ford Fiesta - Imported 2: VW Golf - Imported 3: Ford Focus - Imported 4: Vauxhall Corsa - Imported 5: Nissan Qashqai - Made here 6: Vauxhall Astra - Made here 7: VW Polo - Imported 8: Mini - Made here (and imported) 9: Mercedes C Class - Imported 10: BMW 3 series - Imported Right there is why Germany will do a deal WE want. And what Germany says the EU does. They need us more than we need them by a long margin. Which is a point I've been making on here for a while. Britain is also France's largest export market for wine. Imagine the French government telling Epernay, Bordeaux, or Beaune that they can't sell to Britain. Or even the Spanish government telling the produce farmers of Murcia and Almeria (already unemployment blackspots) that the British market is off limits. I don't think so. It's only brexiteers who want this trade war. Well half of them, the other half want totally free trade, so the rest of us have no chance of knowing which view point prevails and it changes from second to second on here. In the remain scenario we don't have those duties. " It's only the remainers who try to frighten everyone to death with the possibility of a trade war. Because of the above a deal will be sorted very quickly. As much as Juncker and co like to say the opposite now, they will sing a very different tune from the 24th | |||
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"Dennis skinner has apparentley let it be known that he will be voting to leave I only knew about John Mann backing Brexit but just did a Google search and it's official Labour MP Dennis Skinner is also joining John Mann today in saying he will vote leave on June 23rd. Don't forget Jeremy Corbyn is only backing remain as he feels it is his duty as party leader to do so. His record shows he is really anti EU Saw a repeat of the Daily politics programme last night from yesterday and Andrew Neil interviewed Labour leave group member Kate Hoey MP. She said there are other Labour members who are biding their time and who will come out to back Brexit before June 23rd. She said some of them are quite high up in the Labour party and will surprise a few people , could she be talking about Jeremy Corbyn? We will have to wait and see? "Whatever Jeremy Corbyn actually thinks about the EU, and we all know he's quite Euro sceptic, he would totally loose all credibility if, after saying he was for remain, he changed his mind now and said he was for remain. And that's another point to. Being Euro sceptic does not necessarily mean you think the UK should leave the EU. I've always been fairly Euro sceptic myself but I believe what happens in Europe affects us whether we are in the EU or not and it's better for the UK to be in the EU shaping it in the direction which we want. This is something we have been quite good at and have moved the EU from a community that mostly benefits French farmers to a large trading block that allows British goods to be traded freely and British people to live and work freely across the whole of Europe without out discrimination, let or hindrance. | |||
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"In an open letter in The Sun newspaper today Labour MP John Mann comes out to support Brexit. He wants Britain to leave the EU and urges Labour voters to vote Leave on June 23rd. and for every john mann.... there is dr sarah wolleston, who went from leave to remain siting the untruths that were being told....especially in the nhs where she was a practicing gp till she became an mp we know we tend not to a;ways trust politicians... but i would be more inclined to trust a gp from within the nhs who is likely to know what is happening at the "tap end" so to speak... but yes... one side lords over decision.. and one side in threads on here rubbished hers and claimed there were alterior motives.... goes both ways.... cheer the bosses of jcb and weatherspoons.... boo the bossed of jp morgan and citibank cheer john dyson.... rubbish richard branson...." John  Dyson? | |||
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" I can see plenty of countries that we already trade with beyond the borders of the EU with no problems whatsoever and it's not going to get any easier by leaving the EU. " Care to explain why not rather than just make a statement. Will the USA buy less UK goods post-Brexit? And if so why would they? " About 60 of them we have free trade deals with because of existing negotiations completed by the EU " Really? Care to list those countries? In 2012 the UK Government was telling British business to export more to non-EU countries 'because of the established Bilateral Trade Agreements'. Now the clue is in the word 'Bilateral'. It means two way. not 28 way ...In fact being part of the Commonwealth we have better terms than the EU countries. " ...there are lots of businesses successfully trading elsewhere, like JCB with its factories in India and China to service that part of the world." And precisely where did JCB and LRJ and others get to build those factories because of the EU? Given Lord Bamfords view as a major exporter that we are better off out of the EU I wouldn't have mentioned JCB but hey .... " What I can't see is you sourcing German goods that people like from India or China - or are they going to do cheap knock off VWs for you? " There are other cars in the world than a test cheating VW. But seriously if people want something they will pay the price asked. If price is a deal breaker then we build most things people need right here in the UK. I quite like that idea that we import less. " Right now we have free trade agreements with EU countries. It's only Brexiteers who want to impose tariffs. Oh actually some want to impose tariffs (Dyson style) and some don't (Minford style). You guys don't have a plan. " Please park the personal digs and sarcasm mate its getting boring. Now we do NOT have a 'Free Trade Agreement' with the Eu or its countries. We pay some £13.2 Bn nett of rebate a year for the privilege of having a £61 Bn trade deficit. That is like paying someone to give you a black eye. " You can keep your brexit tax, none of us want to pay it. " What Brexit Tax. Is that like the Bedroom Tax that doesn't exist but makes a 10 second soundbite? We do however pay a 'Remain' Tax. It is about £13.2 Bn a year on average. In hard cash. The majority of us do not wish to pay that any more. | |||
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" I can see plenty of countries that we already trade with beyond the borders of the EU with no problems whatsoever and it's not going to get any easier by leaving the EU. Care to explain why not rather than just make a statement. Will the USA buy less UK goods post-Brexit? And if so why would they? About 60 of them we have free trade deals with because of existing negotiations completed by the EU Really? Care to list those countries? In 2012 the UK Government was telling British business to export more to non-EU countries 'because of the established Bilateral Trade Agreements'. Now the clue is in the word 'Bilateral'. It means two way. not 28 way ...In fact being part of the Commonwealth we have better terms than the EU countries. ...there are lots of businesses successfully trading elsewhere, like JCB with its factories in India and China to service that part of the world. And precisely where did JCB and LRJ and others get to build those factories because of the EU? Given Lord Bamfords view as a major exporter that we are better off out of the EU I wouldn't have mentioned JCB but hey .... What I can't see is you sourcing German goods that people like from India or China - or are they going to do cheap knock off VWs for you? There are other cars in the world than a test cheating VW. But seriously if people want something they will pay the price asked. If price is a deal breaker then we build most things people need right here in the UK. I quite like that idea that we import less. Right now we have free trade agreements with EU countries. It's only Brexiteers who want to impose tariffs. Oh actually some want to impose tariffs (Dyson style) and some don't (Minford style). You guys don't have a plan. Please park the personal digs and sarcasm mate its getting boring. Now we do NOT have a 'Free Trade Agreement' with the Eu or its countries. We pay some £13.2 Bn nett of rebate a year for the privilege of having a £61 Bn trade deficit. That is like paying someone to give you a black eye. You can keep your brexit tax, none of us want to pay it. What Brexit Tax. Is that like the Bedroom Tax that doesn't exist but makes a 10 second soundbite? We do however pay a 'Remain' Tax. It is about £13.2 Bn a year on average. In hard cash. The majority of us do not wish to pay that any more. " Bang on ..point for point argument! You forgot to look at "worse case scenario". Trade with EU reverts to WTO rules with 10% tariffs. But....as we have a trade deficit of 61bn with the EU then as the 10% works both ways we would get a net GAIN of 610 million! | |||
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" I'll see your John Scarlet and raise you Mervin King. would the current bank of england governor trump the last one....
just because i am pretty sure that Carney has said on numourous occasion that brexit.... would be determental (not going to use the word bad) to the uk enconomy....
oooh....since we are playing trumps....
does the governor of the ECB trump the Governor of the BoE
or the Governor of the world bank or the IMF.....
and where does janet yellen, chair of the us financial reserve stand on the totum pole....
just curious......
I would say they all have vested interests.
Mervin King would trump Carney because Carney (although supposedly independent) is still on the government payroll. There is a big difference between a salary and a pension.
Same applies to Dragi, he has no choice other than to follow the Brussels line.
Any comments coming from the US are (as always) based on what is good for the US. Not necessarily what is best for Britain or even Europe.
Avon cosmetics from the USA have said they intend to invest in Britain and move their headquarters from New York to Britain even if we leave the EU. It is a huge vote of confidence in the UK and completely rubbishes the line coming from the Remain campaign that no one will invest in Britain if we leave the EU. "I don't think anyone from BREMAIN has said that no one will invest in Britain if we leave. What has been said, and which seems to me to be self-evident, is that companies are more likely to invest in Britain and more likely to the invest more money in Britain, if that investment is going well give them access to a market of 500 million people rather than a market of only 65 million people. | |||
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"If you don't laugh when you read things like the following you have to cry: Just on the WTO rules thing. Of course given we have a £61 Bn a year Trade Deficit with EU countries (not the EU itself as it buys and sells nothing but likes our cash) then a 10% tariff war would add £6 Bn a year to the UK Treasury. Nett. That will not happen for one reason: Germany. OK add a second : France If the UK adds a 10% tariff and the UK treasury gets 10% net, then the British people who will be buying those imports will be paying that 10% plus, of course, VAT on it. That money that miraculously goes into the treasury isn't paid by anyone else except the consumer in the UK to the tax authorities in the UK. When the people of the UK eventually realise that whichever Brexit 'expert' they listen to they end up paying even more in Brexit tax, they'll know the sensible approach is to remain. Once again you write words without actually reading mine. I just said: "It will never happen". But if you want an economic argument then fine. If we had 10% Tariffs on EU goods then that would be paid by the importer on importation. That would add 10% to the ex factory price not the Retail Price. Which may or may not put people off buying those imported goods. No doubt the Germans will make the same judgements about Jaguars or whatever. Whichever way you cut it adding Tariffs will have a negative effect on overall trade. Which, inter alia, will reduce the trade deficit. Which, again, will damage the EU countries more than us as we have to fund the cash for that trade deficit by borrowing which forms part of our overall PSBR. So the EU is a really good idea for trade? The standard tariff for importing cars to the U.S. is 2.5 percent of their value. However the European Union charges a flat rate of 10 percent on imported cars from the USA. Hence TTIP. So when we leave and no other agreement is reached our car manufacturers will face a 10% Tariff and you can bet we will add a similar Tariff on EU made cars. But here is thing. Top Ten cars sold in the UK are: 1: Ford Fiesta - Imported 2: VW Golf - Imported 3: Ford Focus - Imported 4: Vauxhall Corsa - Imported 5: Nissan Qashqai - Made here 6: Vauxhall Astra - Made here 7: VW Polo - Imported 8: Mini - Made here (and imported) 9: Mercedes C Class - Imported 10: BMW 3 series - Imported Right there is why Germany will do a deal WE want. And what Germany says the EU does. They need us more than we need them by a long margin. Which is a point I've been making on here for a while. Britain is also France's largest export market for wine. Imagine the French government telling Epernay, Bordeaux, or Beaune that they can't sell to Britain. Or even the Spanish government telling the produce farmers of Murcia and Almeria (already unemployment blackspots) that the British market is off limits. I don't think so. It's only brexiteers who want this trade war. Well half of them, the other half want totally free trade, so the rest of us have no chance of knowing which view point prevails and it changes from second to second on here. In the remain scenario we don't have those duties. It's only the remainers who try to frighten everyone to death with the possibility of a trade war. Because of the above a deal will be sorted very quickly. As much as Juncker and co like to say the opposite now, they will sing a very different tune from the 24th" No need for trade wars on the remain scenario. But brexiters feel they have to threaten it because of course Johnny foreigner will cave in immediately. If not there are always gunboats to send up the rhine | |||
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" They've got recent knowledge of the security situation and how it's handled and their words are telling us not to believe the cloud cuckooland views coming from the Brexit propaganda team Ignoring the childish 'cloud cuckooland' and 'propaganda' nonsense lets cut to the chase on security shall we? The UK has the most effective Intelligence and counter espionage outfits in the world. We are very highly regarded by the USA for the quality and accuracy of our Intell. GCHQ provides many times more Intell. to the other countries in the EU than we ever get from them. That will continue post-Brexit. In the last 16 years we have had 3 terrorist acts here in the UK: May 2013 when Lee Rigby was murdered; June 2007 at Glasgow Airport and of course July 2007 with the London bombings. They were all home grown terrorists. we have had NO attacks from outside the UK since the last IRA bombing in Birmingham in 2001. And it is BECAUSE we have had years of the IRA that we are the best. That will continue post-Brexit. We also have the best trained, equipped and capable military forces in the EU. Its why France wants to join with us in expanding their military and fast reaction capability independently of the EU. That will continue post-Brexit. We are rated as No. 1 in 'Soft Power' in the world. Other countries listen and respect us more than any other. That will continue and quite possibly improve post-Brexit. We also happen to be the largest contributor to NATO in hard cash and GDP terms (2%) in the EU. And it is NATO not the EU that has kept peace in Europe since WWII. To believe otherwise really is in some land of the cuckoos. That will continue post-Brexit. The EU as a body contributes nothing to security. It is the combined efforts of individual nation states that achieve whatever is achieved. It just happens the UK is the best connected and capable Nation State at this particular game. And one can certainly argue that the EU has seriously damaged the security of Europe because of its politically dominated dogma of 'free movement of people' and the creation of the Schengen Agreement on open borders. So a terrorist enters Greece on a dinghy with a fake passport, can travel all the way to Paris and then shoot dozens of people. THAT isn't cloud cuckooland. THAT isn't propaganda. THAT is a historical fact. And THAT is not a security arrangement I wish to continue with thank you very much. Excellent post.
I bet that will get some of the remainers on here scurrying for their Brussels briefing notes.
You may be in for a long wait, it took Man4eu nearly 2 weeks to come back with any kind of real reply to a link I posted about the EU forcing Britain into the whale meat trade. If it takes 2 weeks from this point though we'll already have voted. "It often takes time to find the information required to disprove a lie. So I guess you're right, the closer we get to the 23rd the harder it will be to disprove BREXIT's lies. Is that really something you think you should be proud of? | |||
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" I can see plenty of countries that we already trade with beyond the borders of the EU with no problems whatsoever and it's not going to get any easier by leaving the EU. Care to explain why not rather than just make a statement. Will the USA buy less UK goods post-Brexit? And if so why would they? About 60 of them we have free trade deals with because of existing negotiations completed by the EU Really? Care to list those countries? In 2012 the UK Government was telling British business to export more to non-EU countries 'because of the established Bilateral Trade Agreements'. Now the clue is in the word 'Bilateral'. It means two way. not 28 way ...In fact being part of the Commonwealth we have better terms than the EU countries. ...there are lots of businesses successfully trading elsewhere, like JCB with its factories in India and China to service that part of the world. And precisely where did JCB and LRJ and others get to build those factories because of the EU? Given Lord Bamfords view as a major exporter that we are better off out of the EU I wouldn't have mentioned JCB but hey .... What I can't see is you sourcing German goods that people like from India or China - or are they going to do cheap knock off VWs for you? There are other cars in the world than a test cheating VW. But seriously if people want something they will pay the price asked. If price is a deal breaker then we build most things people need right here in the UK. I quite like that idea that we import less. Right now we have free trade agreements with EU countries. It's only Brexiteers who want to impose tariffs. Oh actually some want to impose tariffs (Dyson style) and some don't (Minford style). You guys don't have a plan. Please park the personal digs and sarcasm mate its getting boring. Now we do NOT have a 'Free Trade Agreement' with the Eu or its countries. We pay some £13.2 Bn nett of rebate a year for the privilege of having a £61 Bn trade deficit. That is like paying someone to give you a black eye. You can keep your brexit tax, none of us want to pay it. What Brexit Tax. Is that like the Bedroom Tax that doesn't exist but makes a 10 second soundbite? We do however pay a 'Remain' Tax. It is about £13.2 Bn a year on average. In hard cash. The majority of us do not wish to pay that any more. Bang on ..point for point argument! You forgot to look at "worse case scenario". Trade with EU reverts to WTO rules with 10% tariffs. But....as we have a trade deficit of 61bn with the EU then as the 10% works both ways we would get a net GAIN of 610 million!" Ah the 10% tariff is back we must have had tariff free trade under brexit for a whole ten minutes. Now I'm with Dyson on this, the 10% tariff brings in a wapping £18 billion because it applies to the whole import bill not just the trade deficit. Now who pays that? Not the exporter. Yes it's you the good old conumerous and you can pay vat on top too putting more than £20bn into the uk government coffers. That's a tax on you, me everyone thanks to a Brexit tariff. Meanwhile the eu will be charging tariffs on our exports. They go to the EU; they don't balance off the import duty that you and I have paid on our imports or miraculously appear back in our bank accounts. Brexit related tariffs would feed the tax men and depress trade making all of us poorer. | |||
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" Trade volumes are far more important than trade surpluses or deficits. The reality is is that almost 50% of our exports go to the EU while the EU exports only about 10% to us. We all know that most of this trade would carry on one way or another regardless but any drop in this trade will have about 5 times the effect on the UK that it would have on the EU. And that is why the real strength in any trade negotiations really lies with the EU, not the UK. Whoaaaa ... You what? So the fact we have a £61 Bn a year Trade Deficit is nothing to consider? The value of goods means nothing? So why are Tariffs ranged on the price of a commodity and its type not the volume? So the fact we sell high value goods like cars, for example, and buy low value but high volume goods like grain, for example the two are the same? And its interesting you trot out that old EU nutmeg about percentages. When of course the EU itself trades nothing. Zero. Zilch. It is individual countries that trade not the EU. So when we have a massive trade deficit with say Germany they will happily stand by and allow the EU to play politics with their biggest car market? Hmmmm. I suspect Mrs Merkel will not be wanting to phone the MDs of BMW or VW to say 'Sorry we have just closed off the UK to your cars!'. It will never happen. Here is a percentage for you: The EU accounts for about 15% of world trade. It has declined from about 40% when we joined. China and the United States export more. They also import more. Take the UK out of the EU figures it looks even worse. And we can already trade freely with both China and the USA." If we already have free trade with the US and China (and by implication any one else) then how would leaving the EU help us improve things? I thought one of BREXITs arguments was that because we're in the EU we can't trade freely with the rest of the world. The reality is is that we don't have free trade currently with the US or China, we trade with those nations under WTO most favoured nation status, which means tariffs. Now you may argue that we seem to be doing well enough trading with the US and China using only WTO rules and, to an extent, you would be right, we do do quite well trading with them. However, when you look more closely you realise that both the US and China have economies that are in the order of 4 to 5 times that of Germany but the level of trade we do with them is not 4 or 5 times more than we do with Germany, it's not even 2 or 3 times the level of trade we do with Germany. It is in fact about the same. All things being equal we should be trading with the US and China at 4 to 5 times the level we trade with Germany. The reason why we don't is because we have truly free trade with Germany but only WTO trade with the US and China. | |||
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"Another nobody on a brexit sinking ship It's the EU that's a sinking ship that's why we need to leave on June 23rd. I'm sure the last figures I saw was that EU growth was picking up. In fact if you strip out the effect of immigration from our GDP figures, I think you'll find the underlying trend for our own economy is far from rosy It's also true that, whilst the proportion of the trade we do with the EU has dropped from just above 50& to just below 50% in the last 10 years, the actual amount of trade we do with the EU has actually gone up. Our trade with the EU had gone up and our trade with the rest of the world has gone up even more. Which sort off shows that it's not a choice between Europe and the world because, currently, we're doing pretty well trading with both Europe and the rest of the world. You don't gain new customers by kicking your richest, best and biggest customer into touch. Figures from the house of commons library as quoted by Conservative MP Bill Cash in the house of commons during an EU debate..... "In relation to Britain's relationship with the other 27 countries in the EU Britain has a trade deficit of £67.8 billion pounds annually. When the same is applied to Germany then Germany has an annual trade surplus with the other 27 countries in the EU of £81.8 billion. So a loss for Britain and a gain for Germany no wonder they are so keen for us to stay in, and why they will want a good deal with us if we leave as we are one of their biggest export markets. In contrast Britain has an annual trade surplus of £31.1 billion with the rest of the world outside of the EU and growing each year". Is there an appendix in the house of commons library that explains to you how to tell the UK consumer that they can't have all those imports? You see all that money flowing out of the country isn't as a result huge armed robbery by Germany, things are coming in the other direction and people in the UK seem to want lots of them. I expect you can explain to the man on the Clapham Omnibus where he's going to get his consumer goods if you threaten that trade? It is exactly why Germany will want a good deal with us if we leave then as they are selling so many goods here. There are plenty of other countries around the world outside of the EU the man on the Clapham Omnibus can buy his goods from besides the EU. It's this little EU attitude from Remainers I cannot stand and people like you don't seem to be able to see beyond the borders of the EU. It is people like you who are inwards looking, open your eyes and realise there is a big wide world out there to trade with. " Which we do currently trade with now. If it was cheaper and better to buy the goods from these countries then we would be buying them from those countries now. Leaving the EU will not make any of those goods cheaper but will put up the price of the EU goods we buy. It will also put up the price of all the things we make with components sourced from the EU, making are goods more expensive to the rest of the world. This is truly the economics of the mad house. | |||
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"Another nobody on a brexit sinking ship It's the EU that's a sinking ship that's why we need to leave on June 23rd. I'm sure the last figures I saw was that EU growth was picking up. In fact if you strip out the effect of immigration from our GDP figures, I think you'll find the underlying trend for our own economy is far from rosy The only continent with worse economic growth than the EU over the last 10 years is Antarctica. Also sky high unemployment in Greece, Spain, Italy and Portugal. Greece look likely to need yet another bailout soon. The EU is failing. But still the biggest, richest market in the world. A 1% growth of a very big, rich market (US$16+ trillion GDP in 2015) is worth more or about the same as a 10% growth in some small or poor market in Africa (US$2.4 trillion) ot South America (US$3.2 trillion). Even China is smaller than the EU and much less rich per person (US$13 trillion). Comparing the growth of small or poor economies with a rich, large economy gives a totally misleading view of the real situation. The EU economy is growing at about 2%, which is about average. The only continent the EU has better growth rate than is Antarctica, hardly anything to brag about. " I'm not bragging about it but you've not answered my point. How is a 3% growth on a market of $3 to $4 trillion on the other side of the world going to provide more trade than for the UK than a 2% growth in a market of $16 trillion less than 30 miles away. | |||
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" No need for trade wars on the remain scenario. But brexiters feel they have to threaten it because of course Johnny foreigner will cave in immediately. If not there are always gunboats to send up the rhine " Why do you keep repeating 'Trade Wars and 'Brexit Tax'? Repetition does not a fact make. There will be no trade wars or Tariffs for at least two years. After which there will be a UK / EU trade agreement. Now if the EU wishes to damage its exports to the UK that is their choice. Most 'Brexit' experts on trade want a Tariff Free agreement. Its only you and those wishing to mislead, let alone alarm, people who keep banging on about a 10% tariff! And stop misleading us on who pays that Tariff. It is the Importing Agent who pays the duty (because that is what it would be) to HMC & E. The Duty is levied on the imported (in technical terms FOB) value. That is not the same as the Retail or other price further down the distribution chain. Any VAT is levied on THAT final price at point of sale. What that VAT rate might be could be changed at any time by a UK Government up or down as it can now. It could also be made VAT free, which we cannot do now, as we would no longer be bound by EU Regulation. So where is the 'war' if we decide to allow US built cars in at a Tariff of not 10% as the EU tells us but 2.5%. The same as they charge UK built cars on importation now or even 0%? In that scenario it would be cheaper to build a UK spec BMW in the USA and ship it here rather than from Germany. I am sure the Yanks would quite like that. India would be able to buy Scottish Whisky at whatever Tariff is agreed rather than the 117% they pay now because the EU protects its market against 'outsiders'. The EU is NOT a global trading organisation. It is an inward looking, protectionist, political creation fantasising it is some large country when it is not. Delusions of grandeur hardly describe it: 5 presidents, a flag, an anthem and a currency and a drive to political union where there is no Germany, France or whatever. Just a federal bunch of ex-states told what to do by the political and unelected elite in Brussels. It is the EU waging trade wars because it raises huge tariffs against non-EU countries to make those inside feel safe. They are not. 7 years for a Canadian deal? TTIP taking a decade? That isn't a good trading attitude. THAT is protectionism. We will be safer outside because WE can decide how WE wish to conduct OUR business, trade and politics. And if EU goods are too expensive well hello USA, Canada, China, Australia, New Zealand and all the rest. | |||
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" It often takes time to find the information required to disprove a lie. So I guess you're right, the closer we get to the 23rd the harder it will be to disprove BREXIT's lies. Is that really something you think you should be proud of? " I would be most grateful if you didn't call me a liar. If you disagree with the facts as I present them (I do of course have the sources) then by all means present your own evidence. Until you do they remain facts. And therefore not a lie. To say 'Oh it takes time but they are lies' is actually not very clever in a debate / discussion. | |||
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"If we can leave Europe and have full control of our immigration AND still be able to trade within the EU without being penalised then I'm all for it, but i cant ever see that happening or being allowed to happen. Of course it will happen. We buy more of their stuff than thy buy of ours. They won't not take our money. Do you really think so ? The main underlying prerequisite for any none EU member to have free trade within the EU is to allow free movement of people in their country from the EU I just dont see the UK being given special treatment We don't currently get free trade with the EU because we are paying billions every year to access the single market. You could call our EU membership fee a tariff. You could if you wanted to mislead. However, if you just wanted to give people the facts to help them make their decision, you'd call it what it is, a membership fee, and not lie about the amount we actually pay. It's not free trade if you are paying billions every year in EU membership fees for the privilege to access the single market. " So you agree, it is a membership fee, not a trade tariff? Glad we've got that sorted at last. | |||
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" I can see plenty of countries that we already trade with beyond the borders of the EU with no problems whatsoever and it's not going to get any easier by leaving the EU. Care to explain why not rather than just make a statement. Will the USA buy less UK goods post-Brexit? And if so why would they? " There's nothing for me to explain. It would be for you to say how Brexit makes it easier to trade with those countries and none of you have succeeded in that. You need to do the explaining. " About 60 of them we have free trade deals with because of existing negotiations completed by the EU Really? Care to list those countries? In 2012 the UK Government was telling British business to export more to non-EU countries 'because of the established Bilateral Trade Agreements'. Now the clue is in the word 'Bilateral'. It means two way. not 28 way ...In fact being part of the Commonwealth we have better terms than the EU countries. " Knock yourself out - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Union_free_trade_agreements " ...there are lots of businesses successfully trading elsewhere, like JCB with its factories in India and China to service that part of the world. And precisely where did JCB and LRJ and others get to build those factories because of the EU? Given Lord Bamfords view as a major exporter that we are better off out of the EU .... " I wouldn't have mentioned JCB but hey just because I didn't feel it was a point worth making at the time,no need to not address it now. JCB built factories in China and India because they could use very cheap labour there and because they were near to the market where they were selling. Of course we'd love JCB to build them in the UK but you know how it is with capitalists - the bottom line trumps jobs in the UK " What I can't see is you sourcing German goods that people like from India or China - or are they going to do cheap knock off VWs for you? There are other cars in the world than a test cheating VW. But seriously if people want something they will pay the price asked. If price is a deal breaker then we build most things people need right here in the UK. I quite like that idea that we import less. " There you go - you're alright jack so let the other poor mugs pay the price for your jingoism " Right now we have free trade agreements with EU countries. It's only Brexiteers who want to impose tariffs. Oh actually some want to impose tariffs (Dyson style) and some don't (Minford style). You guys don't have a plan. Please park the personal digs and sarcasm mate its getting boring. " Personal digs? Which are you Minford or Dyson? When you identify yourself you can let us know whether we'll be tariff free or at 10% WTO rate, until one of your mates disagrees. I won't be taking any instructions from you on what points I raise just as your pals won't be stopping making snide comments and personal digs about public figures who are in favour of remaining in. What's truly boring to many of us is the extent of the lies that some Brexiteers will tell. " Now we do NOT have a 'Free Trade Agreement' with the Eu or its countries. We pay some £13.2 Bn nett of rebate a year for the privilege of having a £61 Bn trade deficit. That is like paying someone to give you a black eye. " Well you'll have to argue with the WTO who have registered the EU as a regional free trade agreement. Of course I expect you know better than them, or if not you'll be writing to them to let them know that they've got it wrong. We are paying for them to provide us with goods that we as a country want. As I said before some Brexit people seem to think that trade is some brutal form of armed robbery perpetuated by the EU. We want things. They sell them to us. They want things. We sell them to them. If you are paying people to give you black eyes, I can only assume that's a transaction that you are willing to participate in. Each to his own - when I buy something in a shop I choose the ones that give me a good deal and no black eyes. That's free advice from me to you that you could follow. " You can keep your brexit tax, none of us want to pay it. What Brexit Tax. Is that like the Bedroom Tax that doesn't exist but makes a 10 second soundbite? We do however pay a 'Remain' Tax. It is about £13.2 Bn a year on average. In hard cash. The majority of us do not wish to pay that any more. " Another irrelevant smokescreen - You must be in a privileged position to have some expertise in the bedroom tax, but from the mocking tone of that comment that privilege obviously doesn't lend you to sympathise with poorer or disabled people. Now when you work out your £13.2 billion don't forget to take off the amount that's paid to farmers, the money that goes to scientific research and all the other money that comes back through European wide cooperation. When you've got the amount that's left that we don't get back directly, you can compare that to the £18 billion in import duties that Dyson reckons we'd have to pay. Yep, you can keep your Brexit tax | |||
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" If we already have free trade with the US and China (and by implication any one else) then how would leaving the EU help us improve things? I thought one of BREXITs arguments was that because we're in the EU we can't trade freely with the rest of the world. " I never said we had 'Free Trade' with the USA and China. I said we already trade under bilateral trade agreements. Sadly we are bound by the EU importation rules although we are free to negotiate our exporting terms. So we have agreed with the USA to sell our cars there at 2.5% duty. That is not a WTO Rules deal either. They pay 10% when they export a car to the UK. There is a glaring example of how we could trade better with the USA. Its the same with other countries around the world. " The reality is is that we don't have free trade currently with the US or China, we trade with those nations under WTO most favoured nation status, which means tariffs. " You repeat yourself but it is still not a fact. I never said we trade under 'Free Trade' terms. Refer to above. We also do NOT trade under WTO terms (although we of course abide by the rules) at all. Again see above for the USA. In China no country has access to all parts of their country. There are four 'Free Trade Zones' (FTZ) and the one in Shanghai is being especially assisted by the UK and Chinese Governments to our benefit. The others are in Fujian, Tianjin and Guangzhou. We can trade on FTZ terms in those four parts of the Country. " Now you may argue that we seem to be doing well enough trading with the US and China using only WTO rules and, to an extent, you would be right, we do do quite well trading with them. However, when you look more closely you realise that both the US and China have economies that are in the order of 4 to 5 times that of Germany but the level of trade we do with them is not 4 or 5 times more than we do with Germany, it's not even 2 or 3 times the level of trade we do with Germany. It is in fact about the same. All things being equal we should be trading with the US and China at 4 to 5 times the level we trade with Germany. The reason why we don't is because we have truly free trade with Germany but only WTO trade with the US and China. " Sorry you are under a complete delusion about the terms under whichj we trade with the USA and China. It is NOT 'free Trade' as we are bound by EU import rules and have to charge what THEY decide. Not us. This restricts our ability to negotiate (and therefore our trade levels) but we have managed a 7.5% improvement on tariffs with the USA (see above) and export to certain zones in China on near Free Trade terms. Despite being encumbered by EU Import rules we doubled export trade to China from £7 Bn in 2010 to £14.1 Bn in 2014. Free of the EU we could make it completely Free Trade and increase trade accordingly. And finally do we pay £13 Bn a year to trade with the USA and China? I don't think we do but we pay that to trade with Germany. So please don't insult me with the 'Free Trade' rubbish. if you pay in to trade it is a Duty, a Tax, a fee. 'Free' it most certainly is not. | |||
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"If you don't laugh when you read things like the following you have to cry: Just on the WTO rules thing. Of course given we have a £61 Bn a year Trade Deficit with EU countries (not the EU itself as it buys and sells nothing but likes our cash) then a 10% tariff war would add £6 Bn a year to the UK Treasury. Nett. That will not happen for one reason: Germany. OK add a second : France If the UK adds a 10% tariff and the UK treasury gets 10% net, then the British people who will be buying those imports will be paying that 10% plus, of course, VAT on it. That money that miraculously goes into the treasury isn't paid by anyone else except the consumer in the UK to the tax authorities in the UK. When the people of the UK eventually realise that whichever Brexit 'expert' they listen to they end up paying even more in Brexit tax, they'll know the sensible approach is to remain. Once again you write words without actually reading mine. I just said: "It will never happen". But if you want an economic argument then fine. If we had 10% Tariffs on EU goods then that would be paid by the importer on importation. That would add 10% to the ex factory price not the Retail Price. Which may or may not put people off buying those imported goods. No doubt the Germans will make the same judgements about Jaguars or whatever. Whichever way you cut it adding Tariffs will have a negative effect on overall trade. Which, inter alia, will reduce the trade deficit. Which, again, will damage the EU countries more than us as we have to fund the cash for that trade deficit by borrowing which forms part of our overall PSBR. So the EU is a really good idea for trade? The standard tariff for importing cars to the U.S. is 2.5 percent of their value. However the European Union charges a flat rate of 10 percent on imported cars from the USA. Hence TTIP. So when we leave and no other agreement is reached our car manufacturers will face a 10% Tariff and you can bet we will add a similar Tariff on EU made cars. But here is thing. Top Ten cars sold in the UK are: 1: Ford Fiesta - Imported 2: VW Golf - Imported 3: Ford Focus - Imported 4: Vauxhall Corsa - Imported 5: Nissan Qashqai - Made here 6: Vauxhall Astra - Made here 7: VW Polo - Imported 8: Mini - Made here (and imported) 9: Mercedes C Class - Imported 10: BMW 3 series - Imported Right there is why Germany will do a deal WE want. And what Germany says the EU does. They need us more than we need them by a long margin. Which is a point I've been making on here for a while. Britain is also France's largest export market for wine. Imagine the French government telling Epernay, Bordeaux, or Beaune that they can't sell to Britain. Or even the Spanish government telling the produce farmers of Murcia and Almeria (already unemployment blackspots) that the British market is off limits. I don't think so. It's only brexiteers who want this trade war. Well half of them, the other half want totally free trade, so the rest of us have no chance of knowing which view point prevails and it changes from second to second on here. In the remain scenario we don't have those duties. It's only the remainers who try to frighten everyone to death with the possibility of a trade war. Because of the above a deal will be sorted very quickly. As much as Juncker and co like to say the opposite now, they will sing a very different tune from the 24th" I honestly and truly hope you're right but I also honestly and truly believe you are wrong. I really can't see the Germans, French, Dutch and every other EU country agreeing to allow the UK free access to the single market, not have to pay anything for it and not have to accept free movement either. Why would the other countries simply not just leave as well? Such a deal would be the death of the EU. Some here may actually think the destruction of the EU is a good ends in its self but the EU itself won't, and that's who we will be negotiating with. The best we could hope for is a deal similar to Norway or Switzerland and neither of those deals come close to being as good as the deal we currently have. You might argue that, because we're bigger than Norway or Switzerland we can get a better deal. Maybe we can but I don't see how much better. And this very argument that a bigger economy can get a better deal is the very reason whys the EU will have the upper hand in the negotiations, it's about 9 times bigger than ours. | |||
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" Why do you keep repeating 'Trade Wars and 'Brexit Tax'? Repetition does not a fact make. There will be no trade wars or Tariffs for at least two years. After which there will be a UK / EU trade agreement. Now if the EU wishes to damage its exports to the UK that is their choice. Most 'Brexit' experts on trade want a Tariff Free agreement. Its only you and those wishing to mislead, let alone alarm, people who keep banging on about a 10% tariff! " It's you Brexiteers who keep raising your trade war and how you are going to dictate terms to EU countries because of our balance of payments deficit. I was quoting your use of 10% tariff and £6bn as far as I can see. But never mind, even within seconds of denying it you say 'There will be no trade wars or Tariffs for at least two years'. I can't wait for you to fire the starting gun on that. Two years and counting hey? Get the point -it's brexiters who talk about imposing tariffs. I have no need to mention tariffs to make the remain case, because there are no tariffs. " And stop misleading us on who pays that Tariff. It is the Importing Agent who pays the duty (because that is what it would be) to HMC & E. The Duty is levied on the imported (in technical terms FOB) value. That is not the same as the Retail or other price further down the distribution chain. Any VAT is levied on THAT final price at point of sale. What that VAT rate might be could be changed at any time by a UK Government up or down as it can now. It could also be made VAT free, which we cannot do now, as we would no longer be bound by EU Regulation. " What an amazingly charitable importing agent you deal with. So this importing agent is going to be paying £18 billion of duty (Dyson's figure) to HM&C and they aren't going to pass it on to the consumer. He or she sounds a lovely person but will be out of business in about 25 seconds flat at that rate if they have any sense. There is no charitable organisation absorbing import duties. They come out of your wallet and mine as add ons to the basic price. That is one of the Brexit taxes. It bears repetition until you get to understand it. It's a tax on every consumer. As for your VAT argument, that's way up in cloud cuckoo land again. How many governments are going to reduce VAT on imports when, like the Brexit spin doctors will, they can continue to blame it on the EU? Don't fotget, oh you have already, the other part of the brexit tax is the cost from damaging our economy. That's going to leave any future government with a gaping hole in their revenue. Even the delightful Minford agrees to a short term shock but tells us all to suck it in, he's alright Jack. A reduction in VAT is about as likely as, well lets think what's even less likely than hell freezing over. Oh yes - me voting for Brexit. | |||
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" Such a deal would be the death of the EU. Some here may actually think the destruction of the EU is a good ends in its self but the EU itself won't, and that's who we will be negotiating with. " And there you have the key problem. It is the EU itself trying to perpetuate this stupid political nightmare. It isn't the individual countries who do the actual trading. Personally I think when we leave many others will seek to do the same. Once that door is open the EU will never close it and we will once again have done Europe a huge service and it will have gained its freedoms back. Whether the political elites in Europe will allow the people that freedom is another question. But we WILL have ours. With freedom comes responsibilities and problems. But that freedom allows people to deal with them faster and how they wish to face them. I would like those in the Remain side to give us three reasons why the UK should join the EU today. Someone please describe the benefits to this country of that £13.2 Bn a year it costs us. (Plus that £61 Bn a year trade deficit). Rather than the scaremongering we get about a world outside the EU. If you can't give a reason to join then you should leave surely? As a Remain supporter can you please tell me when the USA joined the EU? How much it pays in and when can I move to new York as they must have Free Movement mustn't they? I mean they trade with the EU after all? Or China. Have they joined? Because apparently no one trades outside the EU .... | |||
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" And there you have the key problem. It is the EU itself trying to perpetuate this stupid political nightmare. It isn't the individual countries who do the actual trading. " One of the things that the Brexit campaign leader Cummings is betting on is that people don't understand how the EU works so you can get away with saying things like "...perpetuate this stupid political nightmare. It isn't the individual countries..." It's the individual countries that set the political agenda through their leaders and heads of state meeting in the European Council summits. They set strategy, the council of ministers and the european parliament are responsible for legislation. The individual countries are totally embedded in the decision making process and in law making through their heads of state, their government ministers and their elected MEPs. The effectiveness of our participation has been weakened by a third of our MEPs swanning off and avoiding doing their jobs which are to represent us and our country. | |||
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" What an amazingly charitable importing agent you deal with. So this importing agent is going to be paying £18 billion of duty (Dyson's figure) to HM&C and they aren't going to pass it on to the consumer. " I just selected at random one of your rather clever misquotes for others to see what we are dealing with: 1) I never said it would not be passed on. I pointed out where the Duty was raised to correct your misinformation 2) The VAT on the final price is calculated at point of sale not at point of import which is the FOB price. 3) I said VAT was variable as it is now. That is all. If you want to have a political debate about it jog on. 4) What WILL change is on which commodities VAT will be levied. Tampon Tax will go. And VAT on energy will go. The EU have denied us both those savings to UK consumers. 5) Not sure when Dyson actually said we should, would or could pay £18 Bn duties but I am sure you have the source. Or is that another 'Remain' scare story? 6) So we will park the £18 Bn and get back to reality: It is up to the Importer how they wish to price their goods. Not you or the EU or me. Its called Capitalism. 7) Which leads us to sales. People will buy what they wish to buy. And pay the price they wish to pay. Its called Capitalism. Difference is they may well have a wider choice with more products from outside the EU. Like US built BMW cars imported at 0% ... And one final point. Unless you know people well pack in the personals about the Bedroom Tax. I was merely making the point that your 'Brexit Tax' is as misleading as was the term 'Bedroom Tax' but you use it as some 'clever' soundbite. However there is a REAL Tax and it is what we pay the EU every year. It is an average of £13.2 Bn and whether the EU spends money here or not is a fatuous argument. ITS OUR MONEY. So we should keep it all and look after OUR interests not the political ambitions of the EU elite and vested interests. | |||
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" Such a deal would be the death of the EU. Some here may actually think the destruction of the EU is a good ends in its self but the EU itself won't, and that's who we will be negotiating with. And there you have the key problem. It is the EU itself trying to perpetuate this stupid political nightmare. It isn't the individual countries who do the actual trading. Personally I think when we leave many others will seek to do the same. Once that door is open the EU will never close it and we will once again have done Europe a huge service and it will have gained its freedoms back. Whether the political elites in Europe will allow the people that freedom is another question. But we WILL have ours. With freedom comes responsibilities and problems. But that freedom allows people to deal with them faster and how they wish to face them. I would like those in the Remain side to give us three reasons why the UK should join the EU today. Someone please describe the benefits to this country of that £13.2 Bn a year it costs us. (Plus that £61 Bn a year trade deficit). Rather than the scaremongering we get about a world outside the EU. If you can't give a reason to join then you should leave surely? As a Remain supporter can you please tell me when the USA joined the EU? How much it pays in and when can I move to new York as they must have Free Movement mustn't they? I mean they trade with the EU after all? Or China. Have they joined? Because apparently no one trades outside the EU ...." Whether you think the EU is the best or worst thing to happen to Europe is totally irrelevant when it comes to negotiating with them. What you have to ask yourself is this. Does the EU want to exist into the future? - yes Would giving the UK extraordinary access to the single market with no costs encourage other countries to do the same? - yes Would other countries leaving the the EU ultimately lead to it's end? - yes With those three questions in mind, is the EU likely to cave in to the UK's demands after BREXIT? - NO! As for your other points about benefits and the US, they have all been covered by myself and others many times over. Would I vote to join the EU now? If we had the opt-out from the Euro, Schengen and ever closer union that we have, YES. If we had the new restrictions on immigration coming in a few weeks time, even more so YES. If we didn't have those opt-outs mentioned it might depend on what the deal on offer would be but more than likely the benefits of the free market would still lead me to vote YES | |||
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" What an amazingly charitable importing agent you deal with. So this importing agent is going to be paying £18 billion of duty (Dyson's figure) to HM&C and they aren't going to pass it on to the consumer. I just selected at random one of your rather clever misquotes for others to see what we are dealing with: 1) I never said it would not be passed on. I pointed out where the Duty was raised to correct your misinformation 2) The VAT on the final price is calculated at point of sale not at point of import which is the FOB price. 3) I said VAT was variable as it is now. That is all. If you want to have a political debate about it jog on. 4) What WILL change is on which commodities VAT will be levied. Tampon Tax will go. And VAT on energy will go. The EU have denied us both those savings to UK consumers. 5) Not sure when Dyson actually said we should, would or could pay £18 Bn duties but I am sure you have the source. Or is that another 'Remain' scare story? 6) So we will park the £18 Bn and get back to reality: It is up to the Importer how they wish to price their goods. Not you or the EU or me. Its called Capitalism. 7) Which leads us to sales. People will buy what they wish to buy. And pay the price they wish to pay. Its called Capitalism. Difference is they may well have a wider choice with more products from outside the EU. Like US built BMW cars imported at 0% ... And one final point. Unless you know people well pack in the personals about the Bedroom Tax. I was merely making the point that your 'Brexit Tax' is as misleading as was the term 'Bedroom Tax' but you use it as some 'clever' soundbite. However there is a REAL Tax and it is what we pay the EU every year. It is an average of £13.2 Bn and whether the EU spends money here or not is a fatuous argument. ITS OUR MONEY. So we should keep it all and look after OUR interests not the political ambitions of the EU elite and vested interests." Ah it's a just like having Chalk back. Is that really you old fellah? So you say: " I never said it would not be passed on. I pointed out where the Duty was raised to correct your misinformation" This is the duty that you said wouldn't exist, and now it appears that it does, or since you're being tricky perhaps you have some other viewpoint to debate?. In this cloud cuckooland of yours, which capitalist would absorb this duty? Dyson said £18bn could be raised. If you think that there's a charitable capitalist going to absorb that, please let us all know. Mind you their shareholders and other investors are going to be furious. Jog on? Is that a reasoned response to raising a valid point about VAT? At current VAT rates, 20% on £18 bn would round it up to a nasty £21.6 bn to be pick pocketed from all buyers of goods. That's worth a good jogging of anyone's wallet. That extra charge will turn up at the point of sale, the end purchaser, whether that be you me or the little old lady down the road. She, and I, will be glad for you to undertake to pay that for us since you're so sure that the risk won't materialise. If you're going to make snide comments about the bedroom tax, then you should expect to be challenged. There are many people who would find that offensive. It was YOUR soundbite that doesn't turn out so clever. The average net payment to the EU isn't £13.2 billion - it's hard to say what that number is because you don't give a source other than plucking it out of thin air. The UK commons library (EU budget and the UK's contributions, April 2016) says that our net payment in 2013 was £10.5bn in £2014 9.8bn in 2015 £8.5bn and the forecast for next year is a reduction of £1.5bn The 'IT'S OUR MONEY' has got to be the worst argument for anything. It is on the level of a toddler's tantrum the way it's used in this 'debate'. Once HMR&C have extracted it from your pay packet, it's the governments money. If they pay that to an arms dealer to buy weapons for the army it's the arms dealer's money. If they pay it to a development agency for drought relief, it's that agency's money. You, and I, are stuffed by due process and can squeal as much as we like but it's no longer our money after the government has paid it out for some legitimate purpose or the other. | |||
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"Germany has already stated that we're not going to be allowed to behave as if ee are a member, taking only those benefits of membership we prefer but not actually be members. Free movement of people from the EU and the UK is here to stay. Whatever you and I vote. I didnt realise the germans made the rules I thought it was decided by all the 27 members, silly me "The Germans don't make the rules in the EU but if you think the stance the Germans or for that matter the French take does not seriously affect the outcome of the votes then you are misleading yourself. | |||
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"Germany has already stated that we're not going to be allowed to behave as if ee are a member, taking only those benefits of membership we prefer but not actually be members. Free movement of people from the EU and the UK is here to stay. Whatever you and I vote. I didnt realise the germans made the rules I thought it was decided by all the 27 members, silly me
The Germans don't make the rules in the EU but if you think the stance the Germans or for that matter the French take does not seriously affect the outcome of the votes then you are misleading yourself."It's not really a case of any country being able to get what it wants in the EU but more a case of any country being able to stop what it doesn't want. France & Germany may be willing to do a trade deal with the UK on far more favorable terms than the EU has with anyone else (although I very much doubt it) but it would only take one of the 26 other countries to say no and it simply wouldn't happen. | |||
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" This is the duty that you said wouldn't exist " Correction. I never said any duties would exist. YOU did. I was just correcting your misleading statement on where any duties are levied as they are now. " Dyson said £18bn could be raised. " Well I have asked for the quote and source and context of where that was said but nothing yet from you. And I got as far as 'cuckooland' again and moved on.... " Jog on? Is that a reasoned response to raising a valid point about VAT? At current VAT rates, 20% on £18 bn would round it up to a nasty £21.6 bn " Ah yet again you misquote me. I was referring to how an EU free Government would be free to put any VAT rates on whatever goods it chose. YOU got into how they always raise rates. To which I said 'Jog on' because its a different debate. Again you quote this £18 Bn you have plucked out of the t'internet. Can we have sources please? And who says it will be 20% VAT. It could be anything from zero to 100%.... And an importer can "defer, suspend, reduce or obtain relief from Import VAT". That is from an HM Customs Notice. " If you're going to make snide comments about the bedroom tax, then you should expect to be challenged. There are many people who would find that offensive. It was YOUR soundbite that doesn't turn out so clever " Again you turn things completely out of context and you misquote. And what 'soundbite' did I create? I asked if the 'Brexit Tax' was a 'soundbite' like 'Bedroom Tax'. Because that is what it is. How can a reduction in a subsidy be a tax? And there is NO 'Brexit Tax'. There is however an 'EU Tax'. So shall we use that from now on? " The average net payment to the EU isn't £13.2 billion - it's hard to say what that number is because you don't give a source other than plucking it out of thin air. " No plucking stuff out of thin air is your chosen way of debating. Like this '£18 Bn Brexit Tax' you invented. Well actually I do have a source, It is HM Treasury and this is the table of numbers in Millions: Year Gross Rebate Nett 2010 £15,197 £3,047 £12,150 2011 £15,357 £3,143 £12,214 2012 £15,746 £3,110 £12,636 2013 £18,135 £3,674 £14,461 2014 £19,234 £4,888 £14,346 Totals: £83,669 £17,862 £65,807 5 Year Increase %:26.6% 60.4% 18.1% 5 Year Average Cost: Gross: £16,734 Rebate: £3,572 Nett: £13,161 So that is where the annual average of £13.2 Bn comes from. That is the cash we paid to the EU. It is the cash we would save in total by leaving the EU. To put that into context our complete fleet of 160 Typhoon fighters including maintenance will cost us £17.6 Bn. And finally: " The 'IT'S OUR MONEY' has got to be the worst argument for anything. It is on the level of a toddler's tantrum the way it's used in this 'debate'. Once HMR&C have extracted it from your pay packet, it's the governments money. " Well last I heard it was OUR money as it is OUR Government. The money paid (of which some is returned at the EU's discretion) is paid from the UK Government who represent US. Whoever they pay it to it is still 'OUR' money.... And thank you for the 'Toddlers Tantrum' comment. That really does add to the discussion. | |||
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" This is the duty that you said wouldn't exist Correction. I never said any duties would exist. YOU did. I was just correcting your misleading statement on where any duties are levied as they are now. Dyson said £18bn could be raised. Well I have asked for the quote and source and context of where that was said but nothing yet from you. And I got as far as 'cuckooland' again and moved on.... Jog on? Is that a reasoned response to raising a valid point about VAT? At current VAT rates, 20% on £18 bn would round it up to a nasty £21.6 bn Ah yet again you misquote me. I was referring to how an EU free Government would be free to put any VAT rates on whatever goods it chose. YOU got into how they always raise rates. To which I said 'Jog on' because its a different debate. Again you quote this £18 Bn you have plucked out of the t'internet. Can we have sources please? And who says it will be 20% VAT. It could be anything from zero to 100%.... And an importer can "defer, suspend, reduce or obtain relief from Import VAT". That is from an HM Customs Notice. If you're going to make snide comments about the bedroom tax, then you should expect to be challenged. There are many people who would find that offensive. It was YOUR soundbite that doesn't turn out so clever Again you turn things completely out of context and you misquote. And what 'soundbite' did I create? I asked if the 'Brexit Tax' was a 'soundbite' like 'Bedroom Tax'. Because that is what it is. How can a reduction in a subsidy be a tax? And there is NO 'Brexit Tax'. There is however an 'EU Tax'. So shall we use that from now on? The average net payment to the EU isn't £13.2 billion - it's hard to say what that number is because you don't give a source other than plucking it out of thin air. No plucking stuff out of thin air is your chosen way of debating. Like this '£18 Bn Brexit Tax' you invented. Well actually I do have a source, It is HM Treasury and this is the table of numbers in Millions: Year Gross Rebate Nett 2010 £15,197 £3,047 £12,150 2011 £15,357 £3,143 £12,214 2012 £15,746 £3,110 £12,636 2013 £18,135 £3,674 £14,461 2014 £19,234 £4,888 £14,346 Totals: £83,669 £17,862 £65,807 5 Year Increase %:26.6% 60.4% 18.1% 5 Year Average Cost: Gross: £16,734 Rebate: £3,572 Nett: £13,161 So that is where the annual average of £13.2 Bn comes from. That is the cash we paid to the EU. It is the cash we would save in total by leaving the EU. To put that into context our complete fleet of 160 Typhoon fighters including maintenance will cost us £17.6 Bn. And finally: The 'IT'S OUR MONEY' has got to be the worst argument for anything. It is on the level of a toddler's tantrum the way it's used in this 'debate'. Once HMR&C have extracted it from your pay packet, it's the governments money. Well last I heard it was OUR money as it is OUR Government. The money paid (of which some is returned at the EU's discretion) is paid from the UK Government who represent US. Whoever they pay it to it is still 'OUR' money.... And thank you for the 'Toddlers Tantrum' comment. That really does add to the discussion. " It's always good to have the actual figures in front of you. This actually not a bad post. Just two points on it. Firstly we actually get another roughly £4,000 billion back in direct cash benefits and, whilst you could, and probably would, argue, we do not control where that money is spent, you also can't really claim that we could save it either; unless you're willing to say whom who is currently getting that money here in the UK is no longer going to get it. BoJo has already said that there will be no reduction in farming subsidy, the largest single part of the £4,000 billion, how can we save it? The real figure, in straight cash terms, we could actually save is I'm fact not £13,000 billion but actually closer to £8,000 billion, would you not agree? | |||
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" This is the duty that you said wouldn't exist Correction. I never said any duties would exist. YOU did. I was just correcting your misleading statement on where any duties are levied as they are now. Dyson said £18bn could be raised. Well I have asked for the quote and source and context of where that was said but nothing yet from you. And I got as far as 'cuckooland' again and moved on.... Jog on? Is that a reasoned response to raising a valid point about VAT? At current VAT rates, 20% on £18 bn would round it up to a nasty £21.6 bn Ah yet again you misquote me. I was referring to how an EU free Government would be free to put any VAT rates on whatever goods it chose. YOU got into how they always raise rates. To which I said 'Jog on' because its a different debate. Again you quote this £18 Bn you have plucked out of the t'internet. Can we have sources please? And who says it will be 20% VAT. It could be anything from zero to 100%.... And an importer can "defer, suspend, reduce or obtain relief from Import VAT". That is from an HM Customs Notice. If you're going to make snide comments about the bedroom tax, then you should expect to be challenged. There are many people who would find that offensive. It was YOUR soundbite that doesn't turn out so clever Again you turn things completely out of context and you misquote. And what 'soundbite' did I create? I asked if the 'Brexit Tax' was a 'soundbite' like 'Bedroom Tax'. Because that is what it is. How can a reduction in a subsidy be a tax? And there is NO 'Brexit Tax'. There is however an 'EU Tax'. So shall we use that from now on? The average net payment to the EU isn't £13.2 billion - it's hard to say what that number is because you don't give a source other than plucking it out of thin air. No plucking stuff out of thin air is your chosen way of debating. Like this '£18 Bn Brexit Tax' you invented. Well actually I do have a source, It is HM Treasury and this is the table of numbers in Millions: Year Gross Rebate Nett 2010 £15,197 £3,047 £12,150 2011 £15,357 £3,143 £12,214 2012 £15,746 £3,110 £12,636 2013 £18,135 £3,674 £14,461 2014 £19,234 £4,888 £14,346 Totals: £83,669 £17,862 £65,807 5 Year Increase %:26.6% 60.4% 18.1% 5 Year Average Cost: Gross: £16,734 Rebate: £3,572 Nett: £13,161 So that is where the annual average of £13.2 Bn comes from. That is the cash we paid to the EU. It is the cash we would save in total by leaving the EU. To put that into context our complete fleet of 160 Typhoon fighters including maintenance will cost us £17.6 Bn. And finally: The 'IT'S OUR MONEY' has got to be the worst argument for anything. It is on the level of a toddler's tantrum the way it's used in this 'debate'. Once HMR&C have extracted it from your pay packet, it's the governments money. Well last I heard it was OUR money as it is OUR Government. The money paid (of which some is returned at the EU's discretion) is paid from the UK Government who represent US. Whoever they pay it to it is still 'OUR' money.... And thank you for the 'Toddlers Tantrum' comment. That really does add to the discussion. " You didn't correct any misleading statement except whatever you imagined. You raised the topic of tariffs and are now weaseling out of it. You can find your own sources, I'm bored with helping you. I even gave you where to find the most up to date version of the house of commons figures but you didn't bother to use it - the ones you quoted below are out of date and you've misrepresented the total contribution figure as a net figure. I can't be bothered to spoon feed you any more if you're just going to pervert the truth again. In the APril 2016 version of the report,the average nett contribution between 2010 and 2015 is £8.775bn, in a range between £7.382bn and £10.465bn. You needed to go to the far right of the table on page 19 to find the nett figure and not try to misrepresent the total contribution figure as the net contribution, which is what you've done here. To put it into context it's half a penny of every pound of income tax and we get massive value in return for it. Feel free to take the toddler's approach to it being your money. Why don't you tell HMR&C you want your money back. If it's yours they'll give it to you. I think you'll find that you'll wait a long time. If there are tariffs and resultant import duties because of this Brexit then it'll be the working person who ends up paying them. VAT is currently 20% on most things. You of course may reduce it to zero, or double it or whatever in your dream world. Once again you don't know, whereas in the remain scenarion none of that is a concern - no tariffs and no Vat on them because they don't exist. Feel free to carry on pretending you've been misrepresented. I'll feel free to carry on quoting you so you can say you didn't say what you just did say. | |||
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"And the second point is, your whole point would across a lot clearer if you put the total effort of your post into your point rather than the somewhat over personal comments you've made about the person disagreeing with you. I know, you feel he's been just as bad or worse, and you may be right, but it still detracts from the rather goof facts you produced in your post. Feel free to ignore this second point if you wish. " Sound advice! | |||
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" It's always good to have the actual figures in front of you. This actually not a bad post. Just two points on it. Firstly we actually get another roughly £4,000 billion back in direct cash benefits and, whilst you could, and probably would, argue, we do not control where that money is spent, you also can't really claim that we could save it either; unless you're willing to say whom who is currently getting that money here in the UK is no longer going to get it. BoJo has already said that there will be no reduction in farming subsidy, the largest single part of the £4,000 billion, how can we save it? The real figure, in straight cash terms, we could actually save is I'm fact not £13,000 billion but actually closer to £8,000 billion, would you not agree? " Thanks for the kind response. Disagreeing doesn't mean people can't remain polite. (I better skip your second point...) That £4 Bn you mention is our money the EU spends here at their total discretion. we have no control over it and that is the key word coming out of this huge debate nationwide. Who controls what. Surely if we do not send that money to the EU in the first place it remains here and we have control. In 2015 UK farmers received about Euro3.1 Bn (£2.4 Bn). That money is paid to control how our farmers produce crops (or not in the case of set-aside). It is not in the farmer's or UK interests to have this foreign control. Our farmers are the most efficient in Europe but this EU CAP is yet another 'one fits all' exercise and compares a Scottish hill farmer with a Greek goat herdsman. We argue that we will directly save £13.2 Bn (or near) every year by leaving the EU. We gain control over that extra money and yes some will be paid to Farmers and Fishermen but we will decide how we wish to make the best out of our brilliant farmers and the land we cultivate. Only in the EU can paying farmers not to farm and throwing back dead fish into the sea make sense. It ius financial and environmental madness. british Farmers know how to farm better than anyone so let them crack on and fund them accordingly. It will actually cost us less in subsidy and with the extra food produced we would import less. A lot of that saved cash will have to go towards rebuilding our shattered fishing fleet. New boats will be needed, new training facilities and new ideas worked up. Again only in the EU does it make sense for it to be cheaper to drive 20 tonnes of fish from Spain to the UK rather than have a British trawler catch it, land it and sell it here. Again utter financial and environmental madness. I live near Lowestoft and to see that town as it is now is just heartbreaking. So many good men just wasted while Spaniards and Frenchmen destroy our fishing stocks. Same story all over Britain. Its our wasters and only we should fish it. If we maintained the CAP payments to farmers as now then one could argue our nett saving is some £10.8 Bn but as I say we would deploy that £13.2 BN as WE see fit and get more direct benefit for us not the EU. In many ways the actual numbers don't mean much because we will have to reset a lot of payments and subsidies to meet our new priorities. But even if we totally re-spent that money at least it is the British people seeing the whole benefit.... | |||
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" "Just on the WTO rules thing. Of course given we have a £61 Bn a year Trade Deficit with EU countries (not the EU itself as it buys and sells nothing but likes our cash) then a 10% tariff war would add £6 Bn a year to the UK Treasury. Nett. That will not happen for one reason: Germany. OK add a second : France." " You typed that, right? You introduced the topic of a tariff war though you now deny it. You said it wouldn't happen because France and Germany wouldn't let it. I said as far as I was concerned the people of the UK wouldn't allow it because they would end up paying those tariffs. You then went through some protracted process about agents and telling us that these agents would absorb the tariffs and then denying that there could be VAT (at whatever rate). That is nonsense. There is no way that import agents would absorb a multi million pound charge. You don't accept that and that's fine, just carry on being wrong but don't try to wriggle out by saying that remainers introduced tariffs to the discussion when you did it. | |||
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" no tariffs and no Vat on them because they don't exist. " Yes the tariff does exist it's called the EU Membership fee. On a side note about VAT we have lost control of VAT on things like energy bills which we cannot lower below 5% even if we wanted to. The EU has full control over it and Westminster has its hands tied by the EU. | |||
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" no tariffs and no Vat on them because they don't exist. Yes the tariff does exist it's called the EU Membership fee. On a side note about VAT we have lost control of VAT on things like energy bills which we cannot lower below 5% even if we wanted to. The EU has full control over it and Westminster has its hands tied by the EU. " If it was a tariff it would be paid on a per item/volume basis on our imports/exports and potentially with quotas. Can you point us to the tariff tables? They should be available if it's a tariff. It would also be registered with the WTO. It's only Brexiters who want to have tariffs between the UK and the rest of the EU. And then that changes every two or three minutes depending on which macroeconomic model you are trying to bend to your shape, so sometimes it's 10% and sometimes it's something else. Trying to change the meaning of 'tariff' to smokescreen your untruths isn't helpful. | |||
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" It's always good to have the actual figures in front of you. This actually not a bad post. Just two points on it. Firstly we actually get another roughly £4,000 billion back in direct cash benefits and, whilst you could, and probably would, argue, we do not control where that money is spent, you also can't really claim that we could save it either; unless you're willing to say whom who is currently getting that money here in the UK is no longer going to get it. BoJo has already said that there will be no reduction in farming subsidy, the largest single part of the £4,000 billion, how can we save it? The real figure, in straight cash terms, we could actually save is I'm fact not £13,000 billion but actually closer to £8,000 billion, would you not agree? Thanks for the kind response. Disagreeing doesn't mean people can't remain polite. (I better skip your second point...) That £4 Bn you mention is our money the EU spends here at their total discretion. we have no control over it and that is the key word coming out of this huge debate nationwide. Who controls what. Surely if we do not send that money to the EU in the first place it remains here and we have control. In 2015 UK farmers received about Euro3.1 Bn (£2.4 Bn). That money is paid to control how our farmers produce crops (or not in the case of set-aside). It is not in the farmer's or UK interests to have this foreign control. Our farmers are the most efficient in Europe but this EU CAP is yet another 'one fits all' exercise and compares a Scottish hill farmer with a Greek goat herdsman. We argue that we will directly save £13.2 Bn (or near) every year by leaving the EU. We gain control over that extra money and yes some will be paid to Farmers and Fishermen but we will decide how we wish to make the best out of our brilliant farmers and the land we cultivate. Only in the EU can paying farmers not to farm and throwing back dead fish into the sea make sense. It ius financial and environmental madness. british Farmers know how to farm better than anyone so let them crack on and fund them accordingly. It will actually cost us less in subsidy and with the extra food produced we would import less. A lot of that saved cash will have to go towards rebuilding our shattered fishing fleet. New boats will be needed, new training facilities and new ideas worked up. Again only in the EU does it make sense for it to be cheaper to drive 20 tonnes of fish from Spain to the UK rather than have a British trawler catch it, land it and sell it here. Again utter financial and environmental madness. I live near Lowestoft and to see that town as it is now is just heartbreaking. So many good men just wasted while Spaniards and Frenchmen destroy our fishing stocks. Same story all over Britain. Its our wasters and only we should fish it. If we maintained the CAP payments to farmers as now then one could argue our nett saving is some £10.8 Bn but as I say we would deploy that £13.2 BN as WE see fit and get more direct benefit for us not the EU. In many ways the actual numbers don't mean much because we will have to reset a lot of payments and subsidies to meet our new priorities. But even if we totally re-spent that money at least it is the British people seeing the whole benefit.... " You still seem to be missing the point. You can't save money that we already get. That £4,000 billion can't be saved from the EU if it's already being spent here. The totally honest answer is we could possibly save about £8,000 billion (which I think makes the case pretty well in straight cash terms and is indisputable). Then, as a separate point, the argument about control of the £4,000 billion could also be made. That to would be pretty undisputable. Instead your arguing about £4,000 billion (when you could be talking about £8,000 million) and on the subject of the economy that, when all said and done, is BREXIT's weakest case. | |||
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"Trade deals work relative to market size. Our market is 65 million the EU would be 435 million. A perfect example is the Swiss trade deal with China. China has free trade with Switzerland for 15 years before Switzerland can export tariff free into China. It won't happen like that with the EU and UK but anyone thinking that a market of 65 million is going to get a parity deal with a market of 435 million is extremely naive," I was talking about trade with the EU not China | |||
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"We don't have a free trade deal with the EU. We pay billions of pounds every year in EU membership fees to access the single market!" Depends if it's a free, trade deal or a free trade, deal. | |||
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"EU countries imported £133.4 billion from the UK in 2015. That doesn't sound the sort of amount you'd normally dismiss as not much." Check out the 'Rotterdam Effect' | |||
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"Life long labour supporter and sometimes member, but I'll also be vote leave too. " It's not about party politics anyway, it's about making the right choice for the country | |||
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"EU countries imported £133.4 billion from the UK in 2015. That doesn't sound the sort of amount you'd normally dismiss as not much. Check out the 'Rotterdam Effect'" That works in both directions of course, but even if you subtract all the trade that goes through the Netherlands you still have a very large number of billions of trade. | |||
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"My point about trade with the EU is that they currently don't buy much from us and we buy a lot from them. If they want to stop us buying from them by adding trade tariffs etc. then that is their choice. But will they say you can't buy our stuff?" they wont stop you buying stuff... its that the stuff you buy will be more expensive.... for example... all of the fruit/veg that the supermarkets have on their shelves aren't produced in the uk same with a lot of the canned items...next time you buy for example... a tin of baked beans... look to see where it comes from.... people talk about the trade difference.... but that isn't the uk govt doing the buying.... its us, you...me... and the tariffs will just end up being passed on to you and me..... | |||
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"they wont stop you buying stuff... its that the stuff you buy will be more expensive.... for example... all of the fruit/veg that the supermarkets have on their shelves aren't produced in the uk same with a lot of the canned items...next time you buy for example... a tin of baked beans... look to see where it comes from.... people talk about the trade difference.... but that isn't the uk govt doing the buying.... its us, you...me... and the tariffs will just end up being passed on to you and me..... " I am fully aware of this. A lot of our cheap imported food comes from South America too. Not being able to buy cheap French apples etc. is not good enough reason for me to want to stay. As I have mentioned in previous threads, I have studied the workings of the EU and that is enough for me to know the UK needs to not be in it. | |||
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