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"In the Daily Torygraph, must be true "The leak was given to the Health Service Journal, not to the newspaper Other sources available: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/huge-leak-of-data-reveals-junior-doctors-leaders-discussed-drawing-out-dispute-for-a-year-a7049716.html | |||
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"Think they must stand their ground & not be bullied into signing their souls away "This leak shows they were never open to talks. | |||
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"This government and that barstard that caused all this - Jeremy c**t, deserves to be tied in knots! Round their necks! !!! People don't understand. The NHS is dying because of years of BAD BAD management and poor investment. All health professionals are under the most ridiculous pressure to try and keep patients safe despite the lack of staff and money to support it. It's like me trying to give everyone a diamond ring when I only have plastic to make it from and then fining me for failing! Total joke. I left. " What about the dodgy doctors sabotaging talks? | |||
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"This government and that barstard that caused all this - Jeremy c**t, deserves to be tied in knots! Round their necks! !!! People don't understand. The NHS is dying because of years of BAD BAD management and poor investment. All health professionals are under the most ridiculous pressure to try and keep patients safe despite the lack of staff and money to support it. It's like me trying to give everyone a diamond ring when I only have plastic to make it from and then fining me for failing! Total joke. I left. " Totally agree with you lady. over worked, stressful environment & constantly hushly scrutinized by media & public! I wldnt sign either. & maybe this leak is a dodgy set-up to make them seem unco-operative   | |||
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"Leak reveals junior doctors' plot to 'draw out' contract dispute for 18 months and 'tie government in knots' - www.telegraph.co.uk http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/05/26/leak-reveals-junior-doctors-plot-to-draw-out-bitter-contract-dis/ Shameful, really. " That's nothing. The government wants to fuck them, and us in the ass.  | |||
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"This government and that barstard that caused all this - Jeremy c**t, deserves to be tied in knots! Round their necks! !!! People don't understand. The NHS is dying because of years of BAD BAD management and poor investment. All health professionals are under the most ridiculous pressure to try and keep patients safe despite the lack of staff and money to support it. It's like me trying to give everyone a diamond ring when I only have plastic to make it from and then fining me for failing! Total joke. I left. Totally agree with you lady. over worked, stressful environment & constantly hushly scrutinized by media & public! I wldnt sign either. & maybe this leak is a dodgy set-up to make them seem unco-operative "The BMA has said “Private discussions should not be mistaken for the agreed strategy of the BMA junior doctors committee, which was communicated publicly." That gives credence to the leak, doesn't it? | |||
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"This government and that barstard that caused all this - Jeremy c**t, deserves to be tied in knots! Round their necks! !!! People don't understand. The NHS is dying because of years of BAD BAD management and poor investment. All health professionals are under the most ridiculous pressure to try and keep patients safe despite the lack of staff and money to support it. It's like me trying to give everyone a diamond ring when I only have plastic to make it from and then fining me for failing! Total joke. I left. What about the dodgy doctors sabotaging talks? " Bollocks | |||
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"Think they must stand their ground & not be bullied into signing their souls away
This leak shows they were never open to talks."So how comes they had talks, gained concessions and have resolved the dispute? Mysterious. | |||
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"Leak reveals junior doctors' plot to 'draw out' contract dispute for 18 months and 'tie government in knots' - www.telegraph.co.uk http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/05/26/leak-reveals-junior-doctors-plot-to-draw-out-bitter-contract-dis/ Shameful, really. That's nothing. The government wants to fuck them, and us in the ass. "The leaks are from the same doctor who complains of working too many hours yet has a side business of photography. | |||
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"Think they must stand their ground & not be bullied into signing their souls away
This leak shows they were never open to talks.
So how comes they had talks, gained concessions and have resolved the dispute? Mysterious."I'm not sure you've read the article  | |||
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"This government and that barstard that caused all this - Jeremy c**t, deserves to be tied in knots! Round their necks! !!! People don't understand. The NHS is dying because of years of BAD BAD management and poor investment. All health professionals are under the most ridiculous pressure to try and keep patients safe despite the lack of staff and money to support it. It's like me trying to give everyone a diamond ring when I only have plastic to make it from and then fining me for failing! Total joke. I left. What about the dodgy doctors sabotaging talks? " 25 years in the NHS . It isn't the Doctors and Nurses who are dodgy!!! #fightback | |||
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"This government and that barstard that caused all this - Jeremy c**t, deserves to be tied in knots! Round their necks! !!! People don't understand. The NHS is dying because of years of BAD BAD management and poor investment. All health professionals are under the most ridiculous pressure to try and keep patients safe despite the lack of staff and money to support it. It's like me trying to give everyone a diamond ring when I only have plastic to make it from and then fining me for failing! Total joke. I left. What about the dodgy doctors sabotaging talks? Bollocks " To the doctors saying there's no point talking as they would not be open to discussion or that the leaks are bollocks? | |||
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"Think they must stand their ground & not be bullied into signing their souls away
This leak shows they were never open to talks.
So how comes they had talks, gained concessions and have resolved the dispute? Mysterious."Stop talking sense  | |||
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"Extracts of the Private conversations: The public positions versus the secret messages Public: This is not just about pay. The long-term effect on patient care is at the heart of junior doctors' concerns. Johann Malawana, chairman of Junior Doctors Committee (JDC) April 2016 Private : Weekend pay is “the only real red line” for junior doctors, Kitty Mohan, executive member, JDC Public: That strikes could be averted if the Government simply re-entered talks, Dr Malawana, February 2016 Private To draw the dispute “right out” with strikes for a prolonged periods, in order to tie the Department of Health “up in knots” for the next 16-18 months, Dr Malawana, December 2015 Public “We want to end this dispute through talks but the government is making this impossible,” Dr Malawana, March 2016 Private JDC executive believed in March that they had “nothing to talk about” as they were not willing to discuss weekend pay. In January, Dr Malawana advised that the group should not get “too concerned in the Acas rubbish. We need to play the political game of always looking reasonable.” Public That the union embarked on strikes unwillingly. “No doctor takes industrial action lightly and we regret the disruption it will cause. However, junior doctors now feel that they have no option,” Dr Malawana, January 2016 Private “The more I think about it the more I love our plan. Basically five weeks of headlines about juniors strikes through January and February,” Dr Malawana, December 2015 Public That it was appalled by the Government’s threat that it would impose a contract. “The Government must listen to concerns from all sides calling on it to lift imposition and get back around the negotiating table. It is not too late to remove the threat of imposition and end this dispute through talks,” BMA spokesperson April 2016 Private “God if they do that [threaten to impose a contract] it would be like manna from heaven,” Dr Malawana, January 2016 Public That the union had no option but to embark on a full walkout. “No junior doctor wants to take this action but the government has left us with no choice,” Dr Malawana, March 2016 Private “We need to somehow not get to a full walkout. It’s a vanity event for juniors. It’s going to blow up in our faces, Dr Malwana, January 2016" This summary has left out an awful lot of negative stuff that I read in the Health Service Journal. | |||
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"Does this doctor speak for all doctors? " No, he speaks for the Junior Doctors Committee. | |||
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"This government and that barstard that caused all this - Jeremy c**t, deserves to be tied in knots! Round their necks! !!! People don't understand. The NHS is dying because of years of BAD BAD management and poor investment. All health professionals are under the most ridiculous pressure to try and keep patients safe despite the lack of staff and money to support it. It's like me trying to give everyone a diamond ring when I only have plastic to make it from and then fining me for failing! Total joke. I left. " The reason is BAD management which is typical of public services, bad managers get promotion not the sack. Investment has outstripped every other sector it needs total reorganisation which is very difficult as it cant just stop and then restart. The trouble is it has become a political football and any change leads to cries of privatisation, all the political parties, unions,staff, doctors and patient bodies need to get together with a clean sheet of paper and sort it out for the future. The public need to play their part and use when they need it not because they have a cold or cough or a little scratch | |||
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"Leak reveals junior doctors' plot to 'draw out' contract dispute for 18 months and 'tie government in knots' - www.telegraph.co.uk http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/05/26/leak-reveals-junior-doctors-plot-to-draw-out-bitter-contract-dis/ Shameful, really. That's nothing. The government wants to fuck them, and us in the ass.
The leaks are from the same doctor who complains of working too many hours yet has a side business of photography. "Irrespective of whether that particular 'leak' is even true or not... I can tell you straight up, when you don't get time to see your family, miss birthdays and Christmas day with the kids, there are VERY VERY few Doctors who have time for any kind of productive sideline business! You are on your feet all day. I wont even talk about the procedures you have tp carry out.... to save lives! Weekends! In the middle of the night! How about someone under the influence of alcohol /drugs verbally abusing you or even punching you? Oh I am not making it up. I wish I was. Why dont people try it if they honestly think Doctors are just dodgy??? See if you like it? And the salary is crap! | |||
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"Leak reveals junior doctors' plot to 'draw out' contract dispute for 18 months and 'tie government in knots' - www.telegraph.co.uk http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/05/26/leak-reveals-junior-doctors-plot-to-draw-out-bitter-contract-dis/ Shameful, really. That's nothing. The government wants to fuck them, and us in the ass.
The leaks are from the same doctor who complains of working too many hours yet has a side business of photography.
Irrespective of whether that particular 'leak' is even true or not... I can tell you straight up, when you don't get time to see your family, miss birthdays and Christmas day with the kids, there are VERY VERY few Doctors who have time for any kind of productive sideline business! You are on your feet all day. I wont even talk about the procedures you have tp carry out.... to save lives! Weekends! In the middle of the night! How about someone under the influence of alcohol /drugs verbally abusing you or even punching you? Oh I am not making it up. I wish I was. Why dont people try it if they honestly think Doctors are just dodgy??? See if you like it? And the salary is crap! "It is true. | |||
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"Think they must stand their ground & not be bullied into signing their souls away
This leak shows they were never open to talks.
So how comes they had talks, gained concessions and have resolved the dispute? Mysterious.
Stop talking sense "The leaks are mostly from before April, before they were forced into talks after the strikes. | |||
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"This government and that barstard that caused all this - Jeremy c**t, deserves to be tied in knots! Round their necks! !!! People don't understand. The NHS is dying because of years of BAD BAD management and poor investment. All health professionals are under the most ridiculous pressure to try and keep patients safe despite the lack of staff and money to support it. It's like me trying to give everyone a diamond ring when I only have plastic to make it from and then fining me for failing! Total joke. I left. The reason is BAD management which is typical of public services, bad managers get promotion not the sack. Investment has outstripped every other sector it needs total reorganisation which is very difficult as it cant just stop and then restart. The trouble is it has become a political football and any change leads to cries of privatisation, all the political parties, unions,staff, doctors and patient bodies need to get together with a clean sheet of paper and sort it out for the future. The public need to play their part and use when they need it not because they have a cold or cough or a little scratch " Agreed! The public have a huge part to play but this sense of entitlement ... some just take the piss! I have known people call an ambulance for a splinter in their finger! I kid you not! | |||
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"This government and that barstard that caused all this - Jeremy c**t, deserves to be tied in knots! Round their necks! !!! People don't understand. The NHS is dying because of years of BAD BAD management and poor investment. All health professionals are under the most ridiculous pressure to try and keep patients safe despite the lack of staff and money to support it. It's like me trying to give everyone a diamond ring when I only have plastic to make it from and then fining me for failing! Total joke. I left. What about the dodgy doctors sabotaging talks? 25 years in the NHS . It isn't the Doctors and Nurses who are dodgy!!! #fightback" Well said, young lady! Doffs cap if the doctors give in, the NHS has no chance! | |||
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"Think they must stand their ground & not be bullied into signing their souls away
This leak shows they were never open to talks.
So how comes they had talks, gained concessions and have resolved the dispute? Mysterious.
Stop talking sense
The leaks are mostly from before April, before they were forced into talks after the strikes. "So 35000 junior doctors had this chain of thought? Yeah alright!!! 
Anyway thoughts on the liar Cameron?? | |||
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"Think they must stand their ground & not be bullied into signing their souls away
This leak shows they were never open to talks.
So how comes they had talks, gained concessions and have resolved the dispute? Mysterious.
Stop talking sense
The leaks are mostly from before April, before they were forced into talks after the strikes.
So 35000 junior doctors had this chain of thought? Yeah alright!!!
Anyway thoughts on the liar Cameron??"Nah just their representatives. It's the point of having the union. | |||
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"Leak reveals junior doctors' plot to 'draw out' contract dispute for 18 months and 'tie government in knots' - www.telegraph.co.uk http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/05/26/leak-reveals-junior-doctors-plot-to-draw-out-bitter-contract-dis/ Shameful, really. That's nothing. The government wants to fuck them, and us in the ass.
The leaks are from the same doctor who complains of working too many hours yet has a side business of photography.
Irrespective of whether that particular 'leak' is even true or not... I can tell you straight up, when you don't get time to see your family, miss birthdays and Christmas day with the kids, there are VERY VERY few Doctors who have time for any kind of productive sideline business! You are on your feet all day. I wont even talk about the procedures you have tp carry out.... to save lives! Weekends! In the middle of the night! How about someone under the influence of alcohol /drugs verbally abusing you or even punching you? Oh I am not making it up. I wish I was. Why dont people try it if they honestly think Doctors are just dodgy??? See if you like it? And the salary is crap! "There are thousands that work xmas day/wknds etc and get far less pay than the doctors, I am sure millions would like £48,000 a year, yes it takes hard work and a lot of studying, but so do many other jobs, not saying for a minute they dont do a good job but so do many others | |||
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"People with brilliant minds, who dedicate their lives to helping others, deserve more money and less time in work. " But why enter and request discussions when they were steadfast, and why say Saturday's can be bought for £700m if it's a question of tiredness? Doesn't make sense that the job is fine if a certain salary is met. | |||
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"Leak reveals junior doctors' plot to 'draw out' contract dispute for 18 months and 'tie government in knots' - www.telegraph.co.uk http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/05/26/leak-reveals-junior-doctors-plot-to-draw-out-bitter-contract-dis/ Shameful, really. That's nothing. The government wants to fuck them, and us in the ass.
The leaks are from the same doctor who complains of working too many hours yet has a side business of photography.
Irrespective of whether that particular 'leak' is even true or not... I can tell you straight up, when you don't get time to see your family, miss birthdays and Christmas day with the kids, there are VERY VERY few Doctors who have time for any kind of productive sideline business! You are on your feet all day. I wont even talk about the procedures you have tp carry out.... to save lives! Weekends! In the middle of the night! How about someone under the influence of alcohol /drugs verbally abusing you or even punching you? Oh I am not making it up. I wish I was. Why dont people try it if they honestly think Doctors are just dodgy??? See if you like it? And the salary is crap!
There are thousands that work xmas day/wknds etc and get far less pay than the doctors, I am sure millions would like £48,000 a year, yes it takes hard work and a lot of studying, but so do many other jobs, not saying for a minute they dont do a good job but so do many others"I don't know where you get the figure of £48,000 from! Newly qualified Doctors are on around 25 or less! It does take years of yard work and study and lots of sacrifice. Yes thousands work shift work but thousands do not study hard for years to gain the qualification that carries such huge responsibility for such terrible treatment and working conditions. The pressure Doctors and Nurses work under is unreal. If you haven't done it, you cannot possibly imagine. As for Nursing. ... don't even get me started on the pittance! No salary rise in 3 years I think now??? Meanwhile how much have MPS awarded themselves plus bonus??? Very nice!!! | |||
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"In other unreported news by the MSM Cameron admits it wasn't Labours fault for the financial crash!! Oh really Dave, not what you were saying during the 2010 election you lying cunt" Nobody said labour caused the crash, they said they didn't save any money during the good times so we didn't have any rainy day money. Which is true. | |||
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"Leak reveals junior doctors' plot to 'draw out' contract dispute for 18 months and 'tie government in knots' - www.telegraph.co.uk http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/05/26/leak-reveals-junior-doctors-plot-to-draw-out-bitter-contract-dis/ Shameful, really. That's nothing. The government wants to fuck them, and us in the ass.
The leaks are from the same doctor who complains of working too many hours yet has a side business of photography.
Irrespective of whether that particular 'leak' is even true or not... I can tell you straight up, when you don't get time to see your family, miss birthdays and Christmas day with the kids, there are VERY VERY few Doctors who have time for any kind of productive sideline business! You are on your feet all day. I wont even talk about the procedures you have tp carry out.... to save lives! Weekends! In the middle of the night! How about someone under the influence of alcohol /drugs verbally abusing you or even punching you? Oh I am not making it up. I wish I was. Why dont people try it if they honestly think Doctors are just dodgy??? See if you like it? And the salary is crap!
There are thousands that work xmas day/wknds etc and get far less pay than the doctors, I am sure millions would like £48,000 a year, yes it takes hard work and a lot of studying, but so do many other jobs, not saying for a minute they dont do a good job but so do many others
I don't know where you get the figure of £48,000 from! Newly qualified Doctors are on around 25 or less! It does take years of yard work and study and lots of sacrifice. Yes thousands work shift work but thousands do not study hard for years to gain the qualification that carries such huge responsibility for such terrible treatment and working conditions. The pressure Doctors and Nurses work under is unreal. If you haven't done it, you cannot possibly imagine. As for Nursing. ... don't even get me started on the pittance! No salary rise in 3 years I think now??? Meanwhile how much have MPS awarded themselves plus bonus??? Very nice!!! "But this doesn't explain why it'd be okay for £700m extra. Or why they were completely closed to negotiations despite calling meetings to negotiate to keep up appearances. | |||
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"People with brilliant minds, who dedicate their lives to helping others, deserve more money and less time in work. But why enter and request discussions when they were steadfast, and why say Saturday's can be bought for £700m if it's a question of tiredness? Doesn't make sense that the job is fine if a certain salary is met. " Because that wasn't all that was in the final agreement. An independent safeguard of hours worked was a big part of the deal, as were many other things. I know you believe that this leak somehow backs up your oft voiced opinion that doctors are lazy, money-grabbing shirkers who delight in making people suffer but it simply doesn't. It says that the BMA had discussed a strategy - do you think that the Government didn't have similar discussions? Did you expect the doctors to give up just because the Government said they should? Ridiculous. | |||
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"In other unreported news by the MSM Cameron admits it wasn't Labours fault for the financial crash!! Oh really Dave, not what you were saying during the 2010 election you lying cunt Nobody said labour caused the crash, they said they didn't save any money during the good times so we didn't have any rainy day money. Which is true. " Cameron says their financial irresponsibly was a direct bearing on the UK's financial instability! Yet at B&Q today he said it was a global issue? | |||
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"People with brilliant minds, who dedicate their lives to helping others, deserve more money and less time in work. But why enter and request discussions when they were steadfast, and why say Saturday's can be bought for £700m if it's a question of tiredness? Doesn't make sense that the job is fine if a certain salary is met. Because that wasn't all that was in the final agreement. An independent safeguard of hours worked was a big part of the deal, as were many other things. I know you believe that this leak somehow backs up your oft voiced opinion that doctors are lazy, money-grabbing shirkers who delight in making people suffer but it simply doesn't. It says that the BMA had discussed a strategy - do you think that the Government didn't have similar discussions? Did you expect the doctors to give up just because the Government said they should? Ridiculous. " When have I said doctors are lazy or shirkers? I do think that they'd be happy with higher salaries, don't think I'd use money grabbers though. No, but I do expect discussions to be open in order to stop strikes, and I don't expect the executives intentionally dragging out talks for 18 months. And I don't know what the government is discussing as I haven't seen it (but I have read a lot of what these BMA/JDC people have said). | |||
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"In other unreported news by the MSM Cameron admits it wasn't Labours fault for the financial crash!! Oh really Dave, not what you were saying during the 2010 election you lying cunt Nobody said labour caused the crash, they said they didn't save any money during the good times so we didn't have any rainy day money. Which is true. Cameron says their financial irresponsibly was a direct bearing on the UK's financial instability! Yet at B&Q today he said it was a global issue? " And how is that supposedly contradictory? His definition of financial irresponsibility probably means increasing real spending 11/13 years and never saving for a rainy day. | |||
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"Think they must stand their ground & not be bullied into signing their souls away
This leak shows they were never open to talks.
So how comes they had talks, gained concessions and have resolved the dispute? Mysterious.
Stop talking sense
The leaks are mostly from before April, before they were forced into talks after the strikes. "Jeremy Hunt agreed to fresh talks in December well before all this? Want a link? | |||
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"In other unreported news by the MSM Cameron admits it wasn't Labours fault for the financial crash!! Oh really Dave, not what you were saying during the 2010 election you lying cunt Nobody said labour caused the crash, they said they didn't save any money during the good times so we didn't have any rainy day money. Which is true. Cameron says their financial irresponsibly was a direct bearing on the UK's financial instability! Yet at B&Q today he said it was a global issue? And how is that supposedly contradictory? His definition of financial irresponsibility probably means increasing real spending 11/13 years and never saving for a rainy day." Name a country that runs on a surplus? | |||
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"Think they must stand their ground & not be bullied into signing their souls away
This leak shows they were never open to talks.
So how comes they had talks, gained concessions and have resolved the dispute? Mysterious.
Stop talking sense
The leaks are mostly from before April, before they were forced into talks after the strikes.
Jeremy Hunt agreed to fresh talks in December well before all this? Want a link? "I'm not sure you understood what I said. | |||
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"NHS is underfunded, current government made sure of that. If careless, our doctors will find better employment elsewhere. " It is underfunded and poorly managed by its non medical staff. Still doesn't change the fact that the BMA were behaving poorly here. | |||
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"Think they must stand their ground & not be bullied into signing their souls away
This leak shows they were never open to talks.
So how comes they had talks, gained concessions and have resolved the dispute? Mysterious.
Stop talking sense
The leaks are mostly from before April, before they were forced into talks after the strikes.
Jeremy Hunt agreed to fresh talks in December well before all this? Want a link?
I'm not sure you understood what I said."I took it as Hunt only backed down after strikes? Or are you saying the junior doctors were forced into talks after strikes? | |||
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"In other unreported news by the MSM Cameron admits it wasn't Labours fault for the financial crash!! Oh really Dave, not what you were saying during the 2010 election you lying cunt Nobody said labour caused the crash, they said they didn't save any money during the good times so we didn't have any rainy day money. Which is true. Cameron says their financial irresponsibly was a direct bearing on the UK's financial instability! Yet at B&Q today he said it was a global issue? And how is that supposedly contradictory? His definition of financial irresponsibility probably means increasing real spending 11/13 years and never saving for a rainy day. Name a country that runs on a surplus?" Countries aren't meant to run on a surplus indefinately because they aren't profit making businesses. Some years you run surplus, some years you run deficit. But eventually you do have to pay your bills so it's better to try and run a surplus while your economy is doing well than when it isn't. | |||
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"Think they must stand their ground & not be bullied into signing their souls away
This leak shows they were never open to talks.
So how comes they had talks, gained concessions and have resolved the dispute? Mysterious.
Stop talking sense
The leaks are mostly from before April, before they were forced into talks after the strikes.
Jeremy Hunt agreed to fresh talks in December well before all this? Want a link?
I'm not sure you understood what I said.
I took it as Hunt only backed down after strikes? Or are you saying the junior doctors were forced into talks after strikes?"Second one. All talks before April walk out were a waste of time. | |||
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"Think they must stand their ground & not be bullied into signing their souls away
This leak shows they were never open to talks."I don't see why they should be. "We're all in this together", clearly we aren't David Cameron. Everyone else is but not the 'political elite' in Westminster, robbing all and sundry with their double standards. | |||
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"Leak reveals junior doctors' plot to 'draw out' contract dispute for 18 months and 'tie government in knots' - www.telegraph.co.uk http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/05/26/leak-reveals-junior-doctors-plot-to-draw-out-bitter-contract-dis/ Shameful, really. That's nothing. The government wants to fuck them, and us in the ass.
The leaks are from the same doctor who complains of working too many hours yet has a side business of photography.
Irrespective of whether that particular 'leak' is even true or not... I can tell you straight up, when you don't get time to see your family, miss birthdays and Christmas day with the kids, there are VERY VERY few Doctors who have time for any kind of productive sideline business! You are on your feet all day. I wont even talk about the procedures you have tp carry out.... to save lives! Weekends! In the middle of the night! How about someone under the influence of alcohol /drugs verbally abusing you or even punching you? Oh I am not making it up. I wish I was. Why dont people try it if they honestly think Doctors are just dodgy??? See if you like it? And the salary is crap!
There are thousands that work xmas day/wknds etc and get far less pay than the doctors, I am sure millions would like £48,000 a year, yes it takes hard work and a lot of studying, but so do many other jobs, not saying for a minute they dont do a good job but so do many others
I don't know where you get the figure of £48,000 from! Newly qualified Doctors are on around 25 or less! It does take years of yard work and study and lots of sacrifice. Yes thousands work shift work but thousands do not study hard for years to gain the qualification that carries such huge responsibility for such terrible treatment and working conditions. The pressure Doctors and Nurses work under is unreal. If you haven't done it, you cannot possibly imagine. As for Nursing. ... don't even get me started on the pittance! No salary rise in 3 years I think now??? Meanwhile how much have MPS awarded themselves plus bonus??? Very nice!!!
But this doesn't explain why it'd be okay for £700m extra. Or why they were completely closed to negotiations despite calling meetings to negotiate to keep up appearances.
They were not closed to negotiations. That is just government spin! But they weren't prepared to back down and be bullied by this government. Cameron and Jeremy C**t do not like not getting their way. Old Etonian friends generally don't but that's another story! He has already been ridiculed for his hysterical 'interpretation ' and twisting research about deaths at weekends in hospital when he has NO IDEA about statistics and the researcher and author of the research article was angry that his work gad been so grossly and shamefully mispresented for politically gain! The worst thing is Jeremy C**t cannot even bring himself to vomit up an apology!"Yeh they were closed to negotiations, the leaks say so. They've been acknowledged by the BMA who has distanced themselves from the views given (despite it being their executives who hold the talks). | |||
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"NHS is underfunded, current government made sure of that. If careless, our doctors will find better employment elsewhere. It is underfunded and poorly managed by its non medical staff. Still doesn't change the fact that the BMA were behaving poorly here. " That's your opinion. It isn't the opinion of the vast majority of BMA members or the general public. The Government played very dirty in this dispute - and they won't be forgiven by some of the brightest and important members of their workforce. I can't see why it's a surprise that things like this were discussed - the fact that they were never carried through is self-evident. | |||
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"Leak reveals junior doctors' plot to 'draw out' contract dispute for 18 months and 'tie government in knots' - www.telegraph.co.uk http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/05/26/leak-reveals-junior-doctors-plot-to-draw-out-bitter-contract-dis/ Shameful, really. That's nothing. The government wants to fuck them, and us in the ass.
The leaks are from the same doctor who complains of working too many hours yet has a side business of photography.
Irrespective of whether that particular 'leak' is even true or not... I can tell you straight up, when you don't get time to see your family, miss birthdays and Christmas day with the kids, there are VERY VERY few Doctors who have time for any kind of productive sideline business! You are on your feet all day. I wont even talk about the procedures you have tp carry out.... to save lives! Weekends! In the middle of the night! How about someone under the influence of alcohol /drugs verbally abusing you or even punching you? Oh I am not making it up. I wish I was. Why dont people try it if they honestly think Doctors are just dodgy??? See if you like it? And the salary is crap!
There are thousands that work xmas day/wknds etc and get far less pay than the doctors, I am sure millions would like £48,000 a year, yes it takes hard work and a lot of studying, but so do many other jobs, not saying for a minute they dont do a good job but so do many others
I don't know where you get the figure of £48,000 from! Newly qualified Doctors are on around 25 or less! It does take years of yard work and study and lots of sacrifice. Yes thousands work shift work but thousands do not study hard for years to gain the qualification that carries such huge responsibility for such terrible treatment and working conditions. The pressure Doctors and Nurses work under is unreal. If you haven't done it, you cannot possibly imagine. As for Nursing. ... don't even get me started on the pittance! No salary rise in 3 years I think now??? Meanwhile how much have MPS awarded themselves plus bonus??? Very nice!!!
But this doesn't explain why it'd be okay for £700m extra. Or why they were completely closed to negotiations despite calling meetings to negotiate to keep up appearances. "They were not closed to negotiations. That is just government spin! But they weren't prepared to back down and be bullied by this government. Cameron and Jeremy C**t do not like it when they dont get their own way. Spoilt old Etonian friends generally don't but that's another story! He has already been ridiculed for his hysterical 'interpretation ' and twisting research about deaths at weekends in hospital when he has NO IDEA about statistics and the researcher and author of the research article was angry that his work gad been so grossly and shamefully mispresented for politically gain! The worst thing is Jeremy C**t cannot even bring himself to vomit up an apology! | |||
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"Think they must stand their ground & not be bullied into signing their souls away
This leak shows they were never open to talks.
I don't see why they should be. "We're all in this together", clearly we aren't David Cameron. Everyone else is but not the 'political elite' in Westminster, robbing all and sundry with their double standards. "Cos what's the point in requesting negotiations if you won't negotiate? It's unreasonable and means that the strikes were potentially avoidable, but instead these BMA leaders chose to not move at all during early talks. | |||
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"NHS is underfunded, current government made sure of that. If careless, our doctors will find better employment elsewhere. It is underfunded and poorly managed by its non medical staff. Still doesn't change the fact that the BMA were behaving poorly here. That's your opinion. It isn't the opinion of the vast majority of BMA members or the general public. The Government played very dirty in this dispute - and they won't be forgiven by some of the brightest and important members of their workforce. I can't see why it's a surprise that things like this were discussed - the fact that they were never carried through is self-evident." Agreed! | |||
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"Think they must stand their ground & not be bullied into signing their souls away
This leak shows they were never open to talks.
So how comes they had talks, gained concessions and have resolved the dispute? Mysterious.
Stop talking sense
The leaks are mostly from before April, before they were forced into talks after the strikes.
Jeremy Hunt agreed to fresh talks in December well before all this? Want a link?
I'm not sure you understood what I said.
I took it as Hunt only backed down after strikes? Or are you saying the junior doctors were forced into talks after strikes?
Second one. All talks before April walk out were a waste of time. "Why were they? Both sides put their points of view across, over 2 years ago I believe Mr Hunt knew 2 years ago his plans were not going to be accepted but due to an election promise the Tories pushed on. Now Cameron promised to get immigration down as well and that's been totally wrong (as per today's figures) so why are they stubbornly sticking to this promise? Why the lies about more people dying at weekends? Aren't you outraged by these? | |||
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"NHS is underfunded, current government made sure of that. If careless, our doctors will find better employment elsewhere. It is underfunded and poorly managed by its non medical staff. Still doesn't change the fact that the BMA were behaving poorly here. That's your opinion. It isn't the opinion of the vast majority of BMA members or the general public. The Government played very dirty in this dispute - and they won't be forgiven by some of the brightest and important members of their workforce. I can't see why it's a surprise that things like this were discussed - the fact that they were never carried through is self-evident." The leaks also show BMA members stating the BMA organisation is poorly managed, and the NHS. Have you read the article or the Health Service pieces on it? I'm not sure we have an equal understanding as it seems you don't know a lot of what was said in the leaks. | |||
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"Think they must stand their ground & not be bullied into signing their souls away
This leak shows they were never open to talks.
So how comes they had talks, gained concessions and have resolved the dispute? Mysterious.
Stop talking sense
The leaks are mostly from before April, before they were forced into talks after the strikes.
Jeremy Hunt agreed to fresh talks in December well before all this? Want a link?
I'm not sure you understood what I said.
I took it as Hunt only backed down after strikes? Or are you saying the junior doctors were forced into talks after strikes?
Second one. All talks before April walk out were a waste of time.
Why were they? Both sides put their points of view across, over 2 years ago I believe Mr Hunt knew 2 years ago his plans were not going to be accepted but due to an election promise the Tories pushed on. Now Cameron promised to get immigration down as well and that's been totally wrong (as per today's figures) so why are they stubbornly sticking to this promise? Why the lies about more people dying at weekends? Aren't you outraged by these?"I don't know why they were closed to talks as the reasoning doesn't make sense to me. I'm not outraged by the leaks. I just think it's dumb to waste time and strike unnecessarily, just because compromise isn't an option. | |||
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"Leak reveals junior doctors' plot to 'draw out' contract dispute for 18 months and 'tie government in knots' - www.telegraph.co.uk http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/05/26/leak-reveals-junior-doctors-plot-to-draw-out-bitter-contract-dis/ Shameful, really. That's nothing. The government wants to fuck them, and us in the ass.
The leaks are from the same doctor who complains of working too many hours yet has a side business of photography.
Irrespective of whether that particular 'leak' is even true or not... I can tell you straight up, when you don't get time to see your family, miss birthdays and Christmas day with the kids, there are VERY VERY few Doctors who have time for any kind of productive sideline business! You are on your feet all day. I wont even talk about the procedures you have tp carry out.... to save lives! Weekends! In the middle of the night! How about someone under the influence of alcohol /drugs verbally abusing you or even punching you? Oh I am not making it up. I wish I was. Why dont people try it if they honestly think Doctors are just dodgy??? See if you like it? And the salary is crap!
There are thousands that work xmas day/wknds etc and get far less pay than the doctors, I am sure millions would like £48,000 a year, yes it takes hard work and a lot of studying, but so do many other jobs, not saying for a minute they dont do a good job but so do many others
I don't know where you get the figure of £48,000 from! Newly qualified Doctors are on around 25 or less! It does take years of yard work and study and lots of sacrifice. Yes thousands work shift work but thousands do not study hard for years to gain the qualification that carries such huge responsibility for such terrible treatment and working conditions. The pressure Doctors and Nurses work under is unreal. If you haven't done it, you cannot possibly imagine. As for Nursing. ... don't even get me started on the pittance! No salary rise in 3 years I think now??? Meanwhile how much have MPS awarded themselves plus bonus??? Very nice!!! "The figures come from the NHS web site so they should be accurate, it states basic starting salary is £27,000 PLUS overtime and anti social pay etc, not bad for a trainee, the trouble is the figures are public knowledge. K has worked in the NHS all her life so she knows the facts currently a grade 7, her pension is one hell of a lot better than any private one also and needs to be taken into account when discussing salary, I have never heard her complain about pay or conditions, she worked many xmas days and just says its part of the job | |||
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"NHS is underfunded, current government made sure of that. If careless, our doctors will find better employment elsewhere. It is underfunded and poorly managed by its non medical staff. Still doesn't change the fact that the BMA were behaving poorly here. That's your opinion. It isn't the opinion of the vast majority of BMA members or the general public. The Government played very dirty in this dispute - and they won't be forgiven by some of the brightest and important members of their workforce. I can't see why it's a surprise that things like this were discussed - the fact that they were never carried through is self-evident. The leaks also show BMA members stating the BMA organisation is poorly managed, and the NHS. Have you read the article or the Health Service pieces on it? I'm not sure we have an equal understanding as it seems you don't know a lot of what was said in the leaks. " Just read some of it, it's not even that inflammatory The whole argument was death rates DONT go up at the weekend so it's unnecessary to impose weekend working for that reason. As someone else said Hunt hasn't apologised for this massive fucking lie, the author of the report he uses said Hunt was wrong As I said why do they insist on keeping this promise and not the immigration one????? | |||
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"Leak reveals junior doctors' plot to 'draw out' contract dispute for 18 months and 'tie government in knots' - www.telegraph.co.uk http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/05/26/leak-reveals-junior-doctors-plot-to-draw-out-bitter-contract-dis/ Shameful, really. That's nothing. The government wants to fuck them, and us in the ass.
The leaks are from the same doctor who complains of working too many hours yet has a side business of photography.
Irrespective of whether that particular 'leak' is even true or not... I can tell you straight up, when you don't get time to see your family, miss birthdays and Christmas day with the kids, there are VERY VERY few Doctors who have time for any kind of productive sideline business! You are on your feet all day. I wont even talk about the procedures you have tp carry out.... to save lives! Weekends! In the middle of the night! How about someone under the influence of alcohol /drugs verbally abusing you or even punching you? Oh I am not making it up. I wish I was. Why dont people try it if they honestly think Doctors are just dodgy??? See if you like it? And the salary is crap!
There are thousands that work xmas day/wknds etc and get far less pay than the doctors, I am sure millions would like £48,000 a year, yes it takes hard work and a lot of studying, but so do many other jobs, not saying for a minute they dont do a good job but so do many others
I don't know where you get the figure of £48,000 from! Newly qualified Doctors are on around 25 or less! It does take years of yard work and study and lots of sacrifice. Yes thousands work shift work but thousands do not study hard for years to gain the qualification that carries such huge responsibility for such terrible treatment and working conditions. The pressure Doctors and Nurses work under is unreal. If you haven't done it, you cannot possibly imagine. As for Nursing. ... don't even get me started on the pittance! No salary rise in 3 years I think now??? Meanwhile how much have MPS awarded themselves plus bonus??? Very nice!!!
The figures come from the NHS web site so they should be accurate, it states basic starting salary is £27,000 PLUS overtime and anti social pay etc, not bad for a trainee, the trouble is the figures are public knowledge.
K has worked in the NHS all her life so she knows the facts currently a grade 7, her pension is one hell of a lot better than any private one also and needs to be taken into account when discussing salary, I have never heard her complain about pay or conditions, she worked many xmas days and just says its part of the job"Yep! I know about it too! 25 years of knowing about it! Only just left! 27 K is NOT a high salary when you have studied so long and the responsibilities are so so huge. A band 7 will earn a lot more after working for the NHS for many years because of the increments and also the shift enhancements. Nurses don't usually complain about pay because noone goes into Nursing for money but to care for people! Yes... the pension is good compared to private pensions BUT you have to have worked for the NHS for years before your salary gets anywhere close to decent. | |||
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"NHS is underfunded, current government made sure of that. If careless, our doctors will find better employment elsewhere. It is underfunded and poorly managed by its non medical staff. Still doesn't change the fact that the BMA were behaving poorly here. That's your opinion. It isn't the opinion of the vast majority of BMA members or the general public. The Government played very dirty in this dispute - and they won't be forgiven by some of the brightest and important members of their workforce. I can't see why it's a surprise that things like this were discussed - the fact that they were never carried through is self-evident. The leaks also show BMA members stating the BMA organisation is poorly managed, and the NHS. Have you read the article or the Health Service pieces on it? I'm not sure we have an equal understanding as it seems you don't know a lot of what was said in the leaks. Just read some of it, it's not even that inflammatory The whole argument was death rates DONT go up at the weekend so it's unnecessary to impose weekend working for that reason. As someone else said Hunt hasn't apologised for this massive fucking lie, the author of the report he uses said Hunt was wrong As I said why do they insist on keeping this promise and not the immigration one?????" I think you ought to read the articles a bit more than assuming. Remember that strikes affect the people using the NHS, choosing industrial action over negotiation directly affects the patients first and foremost. Yes, Hunt was wrong to cite sources that don't stand up. | |||
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"NHS is underfunded, current government made sure of that. If careless, our doctors will find better employment elsewhere. It is underfunded and poorly managed by its non medical staff. Still doesn't change the fact that the BMA were behaving poorly here. That's your opinion. It isn't the opinion of the vast majority of BMA members or the general public. The Government played very dirty in this dispute - and they won't be forgiven by some of the brightest and important members of their workforce. I can't see why it's a surprise that things like this were discussed - the fact that they were never carried through is self-evident. The leaks also show BMA members stating the BMA organisation is poorly managed, and the NHS. Have you read the article or the Health Service pieces on it? I'm not sure we have an equal understanding as it seems you don't know a lot of what was said in the leaks. Just read some of it, it's not even that inflammatory The whole argument was death rates DONT go up at the weekend so it's unnecessary to impose weekend working for that reason. As someone else said Hunt hasn't apologised for this massive fucking lie, the author of the report he uses said Hunt was wrong As I said why do they insist on keeping this promise and not the immigration one????? I think you ought to read the articles a bit more than assuming. Remember that strikes affect the people using the NHS, choosing industrial action over negotiation directly affects the patients first and foremost. Yes, Hunt was wrong to cite sources that don't stand up. " I think you need to check facts they were negotiating 2 years ago, they didn't strike straight away! | |||
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"Leak reveals junior doctors' plot to 'draw out' contract dispute for 18 months and 'tie government in knots' - www.telegraph.co.uk http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/05/26/leak-reveals-junior-doctors-plot-to-draw-out-bitter-contract-dis/ Shameful, really. That's nothing. The government wants to fuck them, and us in the ass.
The leaks are from the same doctor who complains of working too many hours yet has a side business of photography.
Irrespective of whether that particular 'leak' is even true or not... I can tell you straight up, when you don't get time to see your family, miss birthdays and Christmas day with the kids, there are VERY VERY few Doctors who have time for any kind of productive sideline business! You are on your feet all day. I wont even talk about the procedures you have tp carry out.... to save lives! Weekends! In the middle of the night! How about someone under the influence of alcohol /drugs verbally abusing you or even punching you? Oh I am not making it up. I wish I was. Why dont people try it if they honestly think Doctors are just dodgy??? See if you like it? And the salary is crap!
There are thousands that work xmas day/wknds etc and get far less pay than the doctors, I am sure millions would like £48,000 a year, yes it takes hard work and a lot of studying, but so do many other jobs, not saying for a minute they dont do a good job but so do many others
I don't know where you get the figure of £48,000 from! Newly qualified Doctors are on around 25 or less! It does take years of yard work and study and lots of sacrifice. Yes thousands work shift work but thousands do not study hard for years to gain the qualification that carries such huge responsibility for such terrible treatment and working conditions. The pressure Doctors and Nurses work under is unreal. If you haven't done it, you cannot possibly imagine. As for Nursing. ... don't even get me started on the pittance! No salary rise in 3 years I think now??? Meanwhile how much have MPS awarded themselves plus bonus??? Very nice!!!
The figures come from the NHS web site so they should be accurate, it states basic starting salary is £27,000 PLUS overtime and anti social pay etc, not bad for a trainee, the trouble is the figures are public knowledge.
K has worked in the NHS all her life so she knows the facts currently a grade 7, her pension is one hell of a lot better than any private one also and needs to be taken into account when discussing salary, I have never heard her complain about pay or conditions, she worked many xmas days and just says its part of the job
Yep! I know about it too! 25 years of knowing about it! Only just left! 27 K is NOT a high salary when you have studied so long and the responsibilities are so so huge.
A band 7 will earn a lot more after working for the NHS for many years because of the increments and also the shift enhancements. Nurses don't usually complain about pay because noone goes into Nursing for money but to care for people! Yes... the pension is good compared to private pensions BUT you have to have worked for the NHS for years before your salary gets anywhere close to decent. "22k plus overtime and so on isn't bad for a new graduate. Automatic pay increases is also a sweet deal. The pension is also an amazing bonus which can be taken for granted. | |||
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"NHS is underfunded, current government made sure of that. If careless, our doctors will find better employment elsewhere. It is underfunded and poorly managed by its non medical staff. Still doesn't change the fact that the BMA were behaving poorly here. That's your opinion. It isn't the opinion of the vast majority of BMA members or the general public. The Government played very dirty in this dispute - and they won't be forgiven by some of the brightest and important members of their workforce. I can't see why it's a surprise that things like this were discussed - the fact that they were never carried through is self-evident. The leaks also show BMA members stating the BMA organisation is poorly managed, and the NHS. Have you read the article or the Health Service pieces on it? I'm not sure we have an equal understanding as it seems you don't know a lot of what was said in the leaks. " Yes, I have. We have a stake in this dispute and have been involved all along. I see nothing in any of the leaks that either surprises or alarms, and neither do any of our colleagues. They simply show the level of anger and frustration at the Government and their negotiating methods. If anything, most doctors we know feel let down by the committee and their recommendation to accept the current deal. | |||
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"NHS is underfunded, current government made sure of that. If careless, our doctors will find better employment elsewhere. It is underfunded and poorly managed by its non medical staff. Still doesn't change the fact that the BMA were behaving poorly here. That's your opinion. It isn't the opinion of the vast majority of BMA members or the general public. The Government played very dirty in this dispute - and they won't be forgiven by some of the brightest and important members of their workforce. I can't see why it's a surprise that things like this were discussed - the fact that they were never carried through is self-evident. The leaks also show BMA members stating the BMA organisation is poorly managed, and the NHS. Have you read the article or the Health Service pieces on it? I'm not sure we have an equal understanding as it seems you don't know a lot of what was said in the leaks. Just read some of it, it's not even that inflammatory The whole argument was death rates DONT go up at the weekend so it's unnecessary to impose weekend working for that reason. As someone else said Hunt hasn't apologised for this massive fucking lie, the author of the report he uses said Hunt was wrong As I said why do they insist on keeping this promise and not the immigration one????? I think you ought to read the articles a bit more than assuming. Remember that strikes affect the people using the NHS, choosing industrial action over negotiation directly affects the patients first and foremost. Yes, Hunt was wrong to cite sources that don't stand up. I think you need to check facts they were negotiating 2 years ago, they didn't strike straight away! " I'm not sure what I've said that is inaccurate? | |||
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"This government and that barstard that caused all this - Jeremy c**t, deserves to be tied in knots! Round their necks! !!! People don't understand. The NHS is dying because of years of BAD BAD management and poor investment. All health professionals are under the most ridiculous pressure to try and keep patients safe despite the lack of staff and money to support it. It's like me trying to give everyone a diamond ring when I only have plastic to make it from and then fining me for failing! Total joke. I left. " Thank you - thank God there's someone who understands just what is going on in the NHS  | |||
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"NHS is underfunded, current government made sure of that. If careless, our doctors will find better employment elsewhere. It is underfunded and poorly managed by its non medical staff. Still doesn't change the fact that the BMA were behaving poorly here. That's your opinion. It isn't the opinion of the vast majority of BMA members or the general public. The Government played very dirty in this dispute - and they won't be forgiven by some of the brightest and important members of their workforce. I can't see why it's a surprise that things like this were discussed - the fact that they were never carried through is self-evident. The leaks also show BMA members stating the BMA organisation is poorly managed, and the NHS. Have you read the article or the Health Service pieces on it? I'm not sure we have an equal understanding as it seems you don't know a lot of what was said in the leaks. Just read some of it, it's not even that inflammatory The whole argument was death rates DONT go up at the weekend so it's unnecessary to impose weekend working for that reason. As someone else said Hunt hasn't apologised for this massive fucking lie, the author of the report he uses said Hunt was wrong As I said why do they insist on keeping this promise and not the immigration one????? I think you ought to read the articles a bit more than assuming. Remember that strikes affect the people using the NHS, choosing industrial action over negotiation directly affects the patients first and foremost. Yes, Hunt was wrong to cite sources that don't stand up. I think you need to check facts they were negotiating 2 years ago, they didn't strike straight away! I'm not sure what I've said that is inaccurate? " You said they went for strikes instead of negotiations, they were negotiating in October 2013!!!! Hunt knew what the score was but is so arrogant he went ahead and refused to budge | |||
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"NHS is underfunded, current government made sure of that. If careless, our doctors will find better employment elsewhere. It is underfunded and poorly managed by its non medical staff. Still doesn't change the fact that the BMA were behaving poorly here. That's your opinion. It isn't the opinion of the vast majority of BMA members or the general public. The Government played very dirty in this dispute - and they won't be forgiven by some of the brightest and important members of their workforce. I can't see why it's a surprise that things like this were discussed - the fact that they were never carried through is self-evident. The leaks also show BMA members stating the BMA organisation is poorly managed, and the NHS. Have you read the article or the Health Service pieces on it? I'm not sure we have an equal understanding as it seems you don't know a lot of what was said in the leaks. Just read some of it, it's not even that inflammatory The whole argument was death rates DONT go up at the weekend so it's unnecessary to impose weekend working for that reason. As someone else said Hunt hasn't apologised for this massive fucking lie, the author of the report he uses said Hunt was wrong As I said why do they insist on keeping this promise and not the immigration one????? I think you ought to read the articles a bit more than assuming. Remember that strikes affect the people using the NHS, choosing industrial action over negotiation directly affects the patients first and foremost. Yes, Hunt was wrong to cite sources that don't stand up. I think you need to check facts they were negotiating 2 years ago, they didn't strike straight away! I'm not sure what I've said that is inaccurate? You said they went for strikes instead of negotiations, they were negotiating in October 2013!!!! Hunt knew what the score was but is so arrogant he went ahead and refused to budge" But they did. The messages show they were not open to negotiations. | |||
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"Leak reveals junior doctors' plot to 'draw out' contract dispute for 18 months and 'tie government in knots' - www.telegraph.co.uk http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/05/26/leak-reveals-junior-doctors-plot-to-draw-out-bitter-contract-dis/ Shameful, really. That's nothing. The government wants to fuck them, and us in the ass.
The leaks are from the same doctor who complains of working too many hours yet has a side business of photography.
Irrespective of whether that particular 'leak' is even true or not... I can tell you straight up, when you don't get time to see your family, miss birthdays and Christmas day with the kids, there are VERY VERY few Doctors who have time for any kind of productive sideline business! You are on your feet all day. I wont even talk about the procedures you have tp carry out.... to save lives! Weekends! In the middle of the night! How about someone under the influence of alcohol /drugs verbally abusing you or even punching you? Oh I am not making it up. I wish I was. Why dont people try it if they honestly think Doctors are just dodgy??? See if you like it? And the salary is crap! "I didn't see too many people complaining about the train drivers' strike,or the fire service strikes. | |||
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"NHS is underfunded, current government made sure of that. If careless, our doctors will find better employment elsewhere. It is underfunded and poorly managed by its non medical staff. Still doesn't change the fact that the BMA were behaving poorly here. That's your opinion. It isn't the opinion of the vast majority of BMA members or the general public. The Government played very dirty in this dispute - and they won't be forgiven by some of the brightest and important members of their workforce. I can't see why it's a surprise that things like this were discussed - the fact that they were never carried through is self-evident. The leaks also show BMA members stating the BMA organisation is poorly managed, and the NHS. Have you read the article or the Health Service pieces on it? I'm not sure we have an equal understanding as it seems you don't know a lot of what was said in the leaks. Just read some of it, it's not even that inflammatory The whole argument was death rates DONT go up at the weekend so it's unnecessary to impose weekend working for that reason. As someone else said Hunt hasn't apologised for this massive fucking lie, the author of the report he uses said Hunt was wrong As I said why do they insist on keeping this promise and not the immigration one????? I think you ought to read the articles a bit more than assuming. Remember that strikes affect the people using the NHS, choosing industrial action over negotiation directly affects the patients first and foremost. Yes, Hunt was wrong to cite sources that don't stand up. I think you need to check facts they were negotiating 2 years ago, they didn't strike straight away! I'm not sure what I've said that is inaccurate? You said they went for strikes instead of negotiations, they were negotiating in October 2013!!!! Hunt knew what the score was but is so arrogant he went ahead and refused to budge But they did. The messages show they were not open to negotiations. " So there are messages from 2013? | |||
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"Leak reveals junior doctors' plot to 'draw out' contract dispute for 18 months and 'tie government in knots' - www.telegraph.co.uk http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/05/26/leak-reveals-junior-doctors-plot-to-draw-out-bitter-contract-dis/ Shameful, really. That's nothing. The government wants to fuck them, and us in the ass.
The leaks are from the same doctor who complains of working too many hours yet has a side business of photography.
Irrespective of whether that particular 'leak' is even true or not... I can tell you straight up, when you don't get time to see your family, miss birthdays and Christmas day with the kids, there are VERY VERY few Doctors who have time for any kind of productive sideline business! You are on your feet all day. I wont even talk about the procedures you have tp carry out.... to save lives! Weekends! In the middle of the night! How about someone under the influence of alcohol /drugs verbally abusing you or even punching you? Oh I am not making it up. I wish I was. Why dont people try it if they honestly think Doctors are just dodgy??? See if you like it? And the salary is crap!
There are thousands that work xmas day/wknds etc and get far less pay than the doctors, I am sure millions would like £48,000 a year, yes it takes hard work and a lot of studying, but so do many other jobs, not saying for a minute they dont do a good job but so do many others
I don't know where you get the figure of £48,000 from! Newly qualified Doctors are on around 25 or less! It does take years of yard work and study and lots of sacrifice. Yes thousands work shift work but thousands do not study hard for years to gain the qualification that carries such huge responsibility for such terrible treatment and working conditions. The pressure Doctors and Nurses work under is unreal. If you haven't done it, you cannot possibly imagine. As for Nursing. ... don't even get me started on the pittance! No salary rise in 3 years I think now??? Meanwhile how much have MPS awarded themselves plus bonus??? Very nice!!!
The figures come from the NHS web site so they should be accurate, it states basic starting salary is £27,000 PLUS overtime and anti social pay etc, not bad for a trainee, the trouble is the figures are public knowledge.
K has worked in the NHS all her life so she knows the facts currently a grade 7, her pension is one hell of a lot better than any private one also and needs to be taken into account when discussing salary, I have never heard her complain about pay or conditions, she worked many xmas days and just says its part of the job
Yep! I know about it too! 25 years of knowing about it! Only just left! 27 K is NOT a high salary when you have studied so long and the responsibilities are so so huge.
A band 7 will earn a lot more after working for the NHS for many years because of the increments and also the shift enhancements. Nurses don't usually complain about pay because noone goes into Nursing for money but to care for people! Yes... the pension is good compared to private pensions BUT you have to have worked for the NHS for years before your salary gets anywhere close to decent.
22k plus overtime and so on isn't bad for a new graduate. Automatic pay increases is also a sweet deal. The pension is also an amazing bonus which can be taken for granted. "Yeah it's all sweet and amazing in the NHS!!! The luxury lifestyle I was able to have!!!! So pleased I worked and studied all those years to be able to afford my penthouse suite overlooking the French Riviera! I shall put it in my PHd!
I stayed and put up with it... for my patients. But enough was enough. Even for me. Doctors and Nurses are leaving the NHS in increasing numbers every year. It's THAT fantastic! | |||
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"This government and that barstard that caused all this - Jeremy c**t, deserves to be tied in knots! Round their necks! !!! People don't understand. The NHS is dying because of years of BAD BAD management and poor investment. All health professionals are under the most ridiculous pressure to try and keep patients safe despite the lack of staff and money to support it. It's like me trying to give everyone a diamond ring when I only have plastic to make it from and then fining me for failing! Total joke. I left. " The NHS is an unsustainable monster and, whichever government is in power, it will die. The only way it has a (slim) chance of surviving is if all parties stop using it as a political football and put the care of patients above political dogma. Sadly I don't see it happening any time soon. | |||
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"NHS is underfunded, current government made sure of that. If careless, our doctors will find better employment elsewhere. It is underfunded and poorly managed by its non medical staff. Still doesn't change the fact that the BMA were behaving poorly here. That's your opinion. It isn't the opinion of the vast majority of BMA members or the general public. The Government played very dirty in this dispute - and they won't be forgiven by some of the brightest and important members of their workforce. I can't see why it's a surprise that things like this were discussed - the fact that they were never carried through is self-evident. The leaks also show BMA members stating the BMA organisation is poorly managed, and the NHS. Have you read the article or the Health Service pieces on it? I'm not sure we have an equal understanding as it seems you don't know a lot of what was said in the leaks. Just read some of it, it's not even that inflammatory The whole argument was death rates DONT go up at the weekend so it's unnecessary to impose weekend working for that reason. As someone else said Hunt hasn't apologised for this massive fucking lie, the author of the report he uses said Hunt was wrong As I said why do they insist on keeping this promise and not the immigration one????? I think you ought to read the articles a bit more than assuming. Remember that strikes affect the people using the NHS, choosing industrial action over negotiation directly affects the patients first and foremost. Yes, Hunt was wrong to cite sources that don't stand up. I think you need to check facts they were negotiating 2 years ago, they didn't strike straight away! I'm not sure what I've said that is inaccurate? You said they went for strikes instead of negotiations, they were negotiating in October 2013!!!! Hunt knew what the score was but is so arrogant he went ahead and refused to budge But they did. The messages show they were not open to negotiations. So there are messages from 2013?" Nope 6 months. It was only after the April strike where they decide to open discussions properly. Before that, negotiations were pointless. | |||
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"Leak reveals junior doctors' plot to 'draw out' contract dispute for 18 months and 'tie government in knots' - www.telegraph.co.uk http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/05/26/leak-reveals-junior-doctors-plot-to-draw-out-bitter-contract-dis/ Shameful, really. That's nothing. The government wants to fuck them, and us in the ass.
The leaks are from the same doctor who complains of working too many hours yet has a side business of photography.
Irrespective of whether that particular 'leak' is even true or not... I can tell you straight up, when you don't get time to see your family, miss birthdays and Christmas day with the kids, there are VERY VERY few Doctors who have time for any kind of productive sideline business! You are on your feet all day. I wont even talk about the procedures you have tp carry out.... to save lives! Weekends! In the middle of the night! How about someone under the influence of alcohol /drugs verbally abusing you or even punching you? Oh I am not making it up. I wish I was. Why dont people try it if they honestly think Doctors are just dodgy??? See if you like it? And the salary is crap!
There are thousands that work xmas day/wknds etc and get far less pay than the doctors, I am sure millions would like £48,000 a year, yes it takes hard work and a lot of studying, but so do many other jobs, not saying for a minute they dont do a good job but so do many others
I don't know where you get the figure of £48,000 from! Newly qualified Doctors are on around 25 or less! It does take years of yard work and study and lots of sacrifice. Yes thousands work shift work but thousands do not study hard for years to gain the qualification that carries such huge responsibility for such terrible treatment and working conditions. The pressure Doctors and Nurses work under is unreal. If you haven't done it, you cannot possibly imagine. As for Nursing. ... don't even get me started on the pittance! No salary rise in 3 years I think now??? Meanwhile how much have MPS awarded themselves plus bonus??? Very nice!!!
The figures come from the NHS web site so they should be accurate, it states basic starting salary is £27,000 PLUS overtime and anti social pay etc, not bad for a trainee, the trouble is the figures are public knowledge.
K has worked in the NHS all her life so she knows the facts currently a grade 7, her pension is one hell of a lot better than any private one also and needs to be taken into account when discussing salary, I have never heard her complain about pay or conditions, she worked many xmas days and just says its part of the job
Yep! I know about it too! 25 years of knowing about it! Only just left! 27 K is NOT a high salary when you have studied so long and the responsibilities are so so huge.
A band 7 will earn a lot more after working for the NHS for many years because of the increments and also the shift enhancements. Nurses don't usually complain about pay because noone goes into Nursing for money but to care for people! Yes... the pension is good compared to private pensions BUT you have to have worked for the NHS for years before your salary gets anywhere close to decent.
22k plus overtime and so on isn't bad for a new graduate. Automatic pay increases is also a sweet deal. The pension is also an amazing bonus which can be taken for granted.
Yeah it's all sweet and amazing in the NHS!!! The luxury lifestyle I was able to have!!!! So pleased I worked and studied all those years to be able to afford my penthouse suite overlooking the French Riviera! I shall put it in my PHd!
I stayed and put up with it... for my patients. But enough was enough. Even for me. Doctors and Nurses are leaving the NHS in increasing numbers every year. It's THAT fantastic! "I understand you didn't enjoy your time at the NHS. It doesn't change the fact that the basic salary is decent for a graduate doctor and so is the pension. | |||
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"This government and that barstard that caused all this - Jeremy c**t, deserves to be tied in knots! Round their necks! !!! People don't understand. The NHS is dying because of years of BAD BAD management and poor investment. All health professionals are under the most ridiculous pressure to try and keep patients safe despite the lack of staff and money to support it. It's like me trying to give everyone a diamond ring when I only have plastic to make it from and then fining me for failing! Total joke. I left. The NHS is an unsustainable monster and, whichever government is in power, it will die. The only way it has a (slim) chance of surviving is if all parties stop using it as a political football and put the care of patients above political dogma. Sadly I don't see it happening any time soon." That is very true but every day the shambles goes on makes it harder to sort out | |||
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"22k compared to 40k plus a car working for the likes of Aldi. The work involved in getting a medical degree is 3 times that of a 3 year degree. Even the latest deal on the table will see junior doctors 25% or more worse of than they were 5 years ago. Would you be happy with that sort of pay cut. Oh and these trainees can literally have your life in their hands, treat them with more respect." 22k + extras isn't bad for a graduate, and it's completely average for all graduates. Comparing it to a private industry doesn't make sense. | |||
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"NHS is underfunded, current government made sure of that. If careless, our doctors will find better employment elsewhere. It is underfunded and poorly managed by its non medical staff. Still doesn't change the fact that the BMA were behaving poorly here. That's your opinion. It isn't the opinion of the vast majority of BMA members or the general public. The Government played very dirty in this dispute - and they won't be forgiven by some of the brightest and important members of their workforce. I can't see why it's a surprise that things like this were discussed - the fact that they were never carried through is self-evident. The leaks also show BMA members stating the BMA organisation is poorly managed, and the NHS. Have you read the article or the Health Service pieces on it? I'm not sure we have an equal understanding as it seems you don't know a lot of what was said in the leaks. Just read some of it, it's not even that inflammatory The whole argument was death rates DONT go up at the weekend so it's unnecessary to impose weekend working for that reason. As someone else said Hunt hasn't apologised for this massive fucking lie, the author of the report he uses said Hunt was wrong As I said why do they insist on keeping this promise and not the immigration one????? I think you ought to read the articles a bit more than assuming. Remember that strikes affect the people using the NHS, choosing industrial action over negotiation directly affects the patients first and foremost. Yes, Hunt was wrong to cite sources that don't stand up. I think you need to check facts they were negotiating 2 years ago, they didn't strike straight away! I'm not sure what I've said that is inaccurate? You said they went for strikes instead of negotiations, they were negotiating in October 2013!!!! Hunt knew what the score was but is so arrogant he went ahead and refused to budge But they did. The messages show they were not open to negotiations. So there are messages from 2013? Nope 6 months. It was only after the April strike where they decide to open discussions properly. Before that, negotiations were pointless. " It's like discussing with a brick wall, negotiations were pointless why in 2013?? These messages, off one doctor as I can see, started in December 2015? You saying he had these thoughts in 2013? And was actively pushing them? I'd love some evidence on that! Or maybe like 35000 others he was finally fed up of negotiating with a lying government? I know what I believe | |||
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"NHS is underfunded, current government made sure of that. If careless, our doctors will find better employment elsewhere. It is underfunded and poorly managed by its non medical staff. Still doesn't change the fact that the BMA were behaving poorly here. That's your opinion. It isn't the opinion of the vast majority of BMA members or the general public. The Government played very dirty in this dispute - and they won't be forgiven by some of the brightest and important members of their workforce. I can't see why it's a surprise that things like this were discussed - the fact that they were never carried through is self-evident. The leaks also show BMA members stating the BMA organisation is poorly managed, and the NHS. Have you read the article or the Health Service pieces on it? I'm not sure we have an equal understanding as it seems you don't know a lot of what was said in the leaks. Just read some of it, it's not even that inflammatory The whole argument was death rates DONT go up at the weekend so it's unnecessary to impose weekend working for that reason. As someone else said Hunt hasn't apologised for this massive fucking lie, the author of the report he uses said Hunt was wrong As I said why do they insist on keeping this promise and not the immigration one????? I think you ought to read the articles a bit more than assuming. Remember that strikes affect the people using the NHS, choosing industrial action over negotiation directly affects the patients first and foremost. Yes, Hunt was wrong to cite sources that don't stand up. I think you need to check facts they were negotiating 2 years ago, they didn't strike straight away! I'm not sure what I've said that is inaccurate? You said they went for strikes instead of negotiations, they were negotiating in October 2013!!!! Hunt knew what the score was but is so arrogant he went ahead and refused to budge But they did. The messages show they were not open to negotiations. So there are messages from 2013? Nope 6 months. It was only after the April strike where they decide to open discussions properly. Before that, negotiations were pointless. It's like discussing with a brick wall, negotiations were pointless why in 2013?? These messages, off one doctor as I can see, started in December 2015? You saying he had these thoughts in 2013? And was actively pushing them? I'd love some evidence on that! Or maybe like 35000 others he was finally fed up of negotiating with a lying government? I know what I believe " Well, he only came in to office in 2015, but there were others in the group who agreed they now need to open up discussions. Attending a negotiation talk is not the same as negotiating. The BMA called for several pointless meetings, knowing they were not willing to compromise. I really don't think you've read enough to support your claim that the BMA was completely open to talk. The conversations suggest it only opened up after the April strike. Bear in mind that I am going by their own words and not anything else. | |||
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"I see you choose to ignore most of my points, says it all really. A medical graduate cannot be compared to most graduates. They do come out with an academic degree, they come out as highly skilled individuals, who have already spent many years practicing medicine under supervision." Hear hear | |||
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"22k compared to 40k plus a car working for the likes of Aldi. The work involved in getting a medical degree is 3 times that of a 3 year degree. Even the latest deal on the table will see junior doctors 25% or more worse of than they were 5 years ago. Would you be happy with that sort of pay cut. Oh and these trainees can literally have your life in their hands, treat them with more respect." You need some facts. STARTING BASIC salary in the 1st foundation year is £27,000 increasing to 30 in year two, this is for a basic 40 wk plus anti social payments and overtime. Where have you dreamt up the 25% reduction from ? Their basic salary offer was a 13% increase with an adjustment on Saturday workings, I'm not sure what the deal has done to the saturday adjustment but would assume that as it has been recommended the adjustment is more in favour of the JD's | |||
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"I see you choose to ignore most of my points, says it all really. A medical graduate cannot be compared to most graduates. They do come out with an academic degree, they come out as highly skilled individuals, who have already spent many years practicing medicine under supervision." Civil engineers are as important, so are lawyers, so are many other graduate positions. It doesn't change the fact that mid 20s is a good starting salary for any graduate. | |||
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"This government and that barstard that caused all this - Jeremy c**t, deserves to be tied in knots! Round their necks! !!! People don't understand. The NHS is dying because of years of BAD BAD management and poor investment. All health professionals are under the most ridiculous pressure to try and keep patients safe despite the lack of staff and money to support it. It's like me trying to give everyone a diamond ring when I only have plastic to make it from and then fining me for failing! Total joke. I left. The NHS is an unsustainable monster and, whichever government is in power, it will die. The only way it has a (slim) chance of surviving is if all parties stop using it as a political football and put the care of patients above political dogma. Sadly I don't see it happening any time soon. That is very true but every day the shambles goes on makes it harder to sort out" The main problem, as I see it, is the fear of privatisation. It may not be the best solution for NHS employees but from a patients point of view it does actually work. Anyone who knows us will be aware that both of us have had health problems in the last year or two, and have been treated by the German system. German waiting lists? What the fuck? They don't even have a word in the language for it. Two years ago Mrs felt a lump in her breast. She phoned the doctor and was told to go to the hospital the next day. They did the biopsy there and then and booked her in for surgery the following week. Tell a German that they have to wait a couple of weeks to see a GP then wait until he/she writes to the hospital to see a specialist god knows how many weeks later, and then to be told "you are on a waiting list" Believe me tell them that and they really would start another war. The German system is private and to be fair they do pay more for their health care, but they get what they pay for. | |||
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"Just more fucking political propaganda. I'm still totally behind the doctors. Why would we not give them better pay and conditions? You pay peanuts you get monkeys. And before anyone moans about how much they're paid against others, should they be on the same pay as say a bus driver? Seven years of training and the debt which goes with it? How would we ever make it an attractive profession to enter? They'll just go abroad. Then the NHS is truly fooked. " Hear hear . It is so refreshing to see some people still have common sense about them and think in a rationale manner !!! | |||
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"Leak reveals junior doctors' plot to 'draw out' contract dispute for 18 months and 'tie government in knots' - www.telegraph.co.uk http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/05/26/leak-reveals-junior-doctors-plot-to-draw-out-bitter-contract-dis/ Shameful, really. That's nothing. The government wants to fuck them, and us in the ass.
The leaks are from the same doctor who complains of working too many hours yet has a side business of photography.
Irrespective of whether that particular 'leak' is even true or not... I can tell you straight up, when you don't get time to see your family, miss birthdays and Christmas day with the kids, there are VERY VERY few Doctors who have time for any kind of productive sideline business! You are on your feet all day. I wont even talk about the procedures you have tp carry out.... to save lives! Weekends! In the middle of the night! How about someone under the influence of alcohol /drugs verbally abusing you or even punching you? Oh I am not making it up. I wish I was. Why dont people try it if they honestly think Doctors are just dodgy??? See if you like it? And the salary is crap!
There are thousands that work xmas day/wknds etc and get far less pay than the doctors, I am sure millions would like £48,000 a year, yes it takes hard work and a lot of studying, but so do many other jobs, not saying for a minute they dont do a good job but so do many others
I don't know where you get the figure of £48,000 from! Newly qualified Doctors are on around 25 or less! It does take years of yard work and study and lots of sacrifice. Yes thousands work shift work but thousands do not study hard for years to gain the qualification that carries such huge responsibility for such terrible treatment and working conditions. The pressure Doctors and Nurses work under is unreal. If you haven't done it, you cannot possibly imagine. As for Nursing. ... don't even get me started on the pittance! No salary rise in 3 years I think now??? Meanwhile how much have MPS awarded themselves plus bonus??? Very nice!!! "Again I agree with you on these points younglady lol Like with most highly stressful jobs, if you've never worked in that field before, you've no real clear idea what the workers go through & the stock they receive for their hard work | |||
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" It doesn't change the fact that mid 20s is a good starting salary for any graduate. " You really think so? honestly? fucking shambles | |||
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"Fantastic as I contemplate whether I will ever get my knee sorted." Better not to pray | |||
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" It doesn't change the fact that mid 20s is a good starting salary for any graduate. You really think so? honestly? fucking shambles" Yeh I do. My FTSE100 company offers entry positions at 21k to new grads, and that's typical in my industry. Although the median is 30k, the average is mid 20s for grads. | |||
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" It doesn't change the fact that mid 20s is a good starting salary for any graduate. You really think so? honestly? fucking shambles Yeh I do. My FTSE100 company offers entry positions at 21k to new grads, and that's typical in my industry. Although the median is 30k, the average is mid 20s for grads. " Lidl pays the living wage for sitting on a till but I wouldn't use that as a comparison either | |||
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" It doesn't change the fact that mid 20s is a good starting salary for any graduate. You really think so? honestly? fucking shambles Yeh I do. My FTSE100 company offers entry positions at 21k to new grads, and that's typical in my industry. Although the median is 30k, the average is mid 20s for grads. " Early 20s for people saving lives, day in day out - if you think that's adequate, you're the kind of people that are making a mockery of this country! | |||
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" It doesn't change the fact that mid 20s is a good starting salary for any graduate. You really think so? honestly? fucking shambles Yeh I do. My FTSE100 company offers entry positions at 21k to new grads, and that's typical in my industry. Although the median is 30k, the average is mid 20s for grads. Lidl pays the living wage for sitting on a till but I wouldn't use that as a comparison either" I'm not sure that's a grad entry level position. | |||
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"I can't think of a way that this can be spun as not holding out solely for more money." | |||
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" It doesn't change the fact that mid 20s is a good starting salary for any graduate. You really think so? honestly? fucking shambles Yeh I do. My FTSE100 company offers entry positions at 21k to new grads, and that's typical in my industry. Although the median is 30k, the average is mid 20s for grads. Early 20s for people saving lives, day in day out - if you think that's adequate, you're the kind of people that are making a mockery of this country!" Eh, no, I'm just being realistic. They're young and newly qualified and still need a lot of training and support. The NHS hasn't got an endless supply of money, mid 20s is a decent basic salary for a new doctor. It's over 30k for some when they do overtime. What would you pay them? Bear in mind, it's funded by the public and not a private company. | |||
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"This government and that barstard that caused all this - Jeremy c**t, deserves to be tied in knots! Round their necks! !!! People don't understand. The NHS is dying because of years of BAD BAD management and poor investment. All health professionals are under the most ridiculous pressure to try and keep patients safe despite the lack of staff and money to support it. It's like me trying to give everyone a diamond ring when I only have plastic to make it from and then fining me for failing! Total joke. I left. " Agreed, government needs to correctly invest in the people and infrastructure to maintain a stable system. However at the same time the are a few doctors who take advantage of the system and usually aim toward jumping ship and going private anyway to become a millionaire which is their main goal. | |||
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" It doesn't change the fact that mid 20s is a good starting salary for any graduate. You really think so? honestly? fucking shambles Yeh I do. My FTSE100 company offers entry positions at 21k to new grads, and that's typical in my industry. Although the median is 30k, the average is mid 20s for grads. Lidl pays the living wage for sitting on a till but I wouldn't use that as a comparison either I'm not sure that's a grad entry level position. " I'm not sure this apple tastes like an orange...so I won't use them as a comparison | |||
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"This government and that barstard that caused all this - Jeremy c**t, deserves to be tied in knots! Round their necks! !!! People don't understand. The NHS is dying because of years of BAD BAD management and poor investment. All health professionals are under the most ridiculous pressure to try and keep patients safe despite the lack of staff and money to support it. It's like me trying to give everyone a diamond ring when I only have plastic to make it from and then fining me for failing! Total joke. I left. Agreed, government needs to correctly invest in the people and infrastructure to maintain a stable system. However at the same time the are a few doctors who take advantage of the system and usually aim toward jumping ship and going private anyway to become a millionaire which is their main goal." You're right. Restructuring the NHS is so badly needed, and funds need to be allocated more appropriately. Managers for example shouldn't be on more than 100k, it doesn't make sense. | |||
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"People with brilliant minds, who dedicate their lives to helping others, deserve more money and less time in work. " The new contract gives them exactly that but they don't want it so I am afraid it totally about money , they say it is about patient welfare but how can it be good for a patient to be treated by a doctor who has been on shift for over 24 hours and they try and say patients are not affected at weekends well I went in for a routine operation on a Friday which went well and was sent to ward on antibiotic my consultant wasn't in on the Saturday and a junior doctor decided I could come off the antibiotics without even seeing me I ended up in icu with sepsis and a superb u spent five weeks in hospital and at weekends never saw a doctor once so from a patients point of view weekends need to be normal working days they are in any other service related job One final point the one group of people who deserve a lot more money are the nurse | |||
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"For those that don't know Junior doctors are not necessarily young and new. It just means they are not consultants. They are arguing for shorter working hours but with rights to have overtime. That doesn't add up." The main point that irritated me about this leak is that it seems they are financially motivated and are holding out for a better salary with unlimited overtime (with weekends having unsocial pay). If they were honest about it, it'd be better and get sorted much more quickly. Instead it's all so very cloak and dagger. | |||
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"People with brilliant minds, who dedicate their lives to helping others, deserve more money and less time in work. The new contract gives them exactly that but they don't want it so I am afraid it totally about money , they say it is about patient welfare but how can it be good for a patient to be treated by a doctor who has been on shift for over 24 hours and they try and say patients are not affected at weekends well I went in for a routine operation on a Friday which went well and was sent to ward on antibiotic my consultant wasn't in on the Saturday and a junior doctor decided I could come off the antibiotics without even seeing me I ended up in icu with sepsis and a superb u spent five weeks in hospital and at weekends never saw a doctor once so from a patients point of view weekends need to be normal working days they are in any other service related job One final point the one group of people who deserve a lot more money are the nurse" You're right too with that last point. I see more over stretched nurses on wards with understaffed teams than I see exhausted over worked doctors. | |||
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"This government and that barstard that caused all this - Jeremy c**t, deserves to be tied in knots! Round their necks! !!! People don't understand. The NHS is dying because of years of BAD BAD management and poor investment. All health professionals are under the most ridiculous pressure to try and keep patients safe despite the lack of staff and money to support it. It's like me trying to give everyone a diamond ring when I only have plastic to make it from and then fining me for failing! Total joke. I left. " Funding was trippled since the milenium. Outcomes barely changed. | |||
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"This government and that barstard that caused all this - Jeremy c**t, deserves to be tied in knots! Round their necks! !!! People don't understand. The NHS is dying because of years of BAD BAD management and poor investment. All health professionals are under the most ridiculous pressure to try and keep patients safe despite the lack of staff and money to support it. It's like me trying to give everyone a diamond ring when I only have plastic to make it from and then fining me for failing! Total joke. I left. Agreed, government needs to correctly invest in the people and infrastructure to maintain a stable system. However at the same time the are a few doctors who take advantage of the system and usually aim toward jumping ship and going private anyway to become a millionaire which is their main goal. You're right. Restructuring the NHS is so badly needed, and funds need to be allocated more appropriately. Managers for example shouldn't be on more than 100k, it doesn't make sense. " I don't believe it! We agree on something! 
Yayyy, cheers to many more | |||
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"People with brilliant minds, who dedicate their lives to helping others, deserve more money and less time in work. The new contract gives them exactly that but they don't want it so I am afraid it totally about money , they say it is about patient welfare but how can it be good for a patient to be treated by a doctor who has been on shift for over 24 hours and they try and say patients are not affected at weekends well I went in for a routine operation on a Friday which went well and was sent to ward on antibiotic my consultant wasn't in on the Saturday and a junior doctor decided I could come off the antibiotics without even seeing me I ended up in icu with sepsis and a superb u spent five weeks in hospital and at weekends never saw a doctor once so from a patients point of view weekends need to be normal working days they are in any other service related job One final point the one group of people who deserve a lot more money are the nurse You're right too with that last point. I see more over stretched nurses on wards with understaffed teams than I see exhausted over worked doctors." How often do you cast your expert eye over the wards? | |||
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"People with brilliant minds, who dedicate their lives to helping others, deserve more money and less time in work. The new contract gives them exactly that but they don't want it so I am afraid it totally about money , they say it is about patient welfare but how can it be good for a patient to be treated by a doctor who has been on shift for over 24 hours and they try and say patients are not affected at weekends well I went in for a routine operation on a Friday which went well and was sent to ward on antibiotic my consultant wasn't in on the Saturday and a junior doctor decided I could come off the antibiotics without even seeing me I ended up in icu with sepsis and a superb u spent five weeks in hospital and at weekends never saw a doctor once so from a patients point of view weekends need to be normal working days they are in any other service related job One final point the one group of people who deserve a lot more money are the nurse You're right too with that last point. I see more over stretched nurses on wards with understaffed teams than I see exhausted over worked doctors. How often do you cast your expert eye over the wards? " Quite often, I see NHS wards weekly. | |||
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"Does anyone know the reasoning behind the pension scheme? And why it's not a contribution based thing like most private pensions? It seems odd for the NHS to be giving money away when it's haemorrhaging. " I pay in 9.3% of my salary every month towards my NHS pension. Is that what you mean? As of last month I also pay£50-odd more in N.I. contributions. | |||
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"Does anyone know the reasoning behind the pension scheme? And why it's not a contribution based thing like most private pensions? It seems odd for the NHS to be giving money away when it's haemorrhaging. I pay in 9.3% of my salary every month towards my NHS pension. Is that what you mean? As of last month I also pay£50-odd more in N.I. contributions." No, more the 54th of NHS salaries going into a pension scheme unless the worker opts out. | |||
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"People with brilliant minds, who dedicate their lives to helping others, deserve more money and less time in work. The new contract gives them exactly that but they don't want it so I am afraid it totally about money , they say it is about patient welfare but how can it be good for a patient to be treated by a doctor who has been on shift for over 24 hours and they try and say patients are not affected at weekends well I went in for a routine operation on a Friday which went well and was sent to ward on antibiotic my consultant wasn't in on the Saturday and a junior doctor decided I could come off the antibiotics without even seeing me I ended up in icu with sepsis and a superb u spent five weeks in hospital and at weekends never saw a doctor once so from a patients point of view weekends need to be normal working days they are in any other service related job One final point the one group of people who deserve a lot more money are the nurse You're right too with that last point. I see more over stretched nurses on wards with understaffed teams than I see exhausted over worked doctors. How often do you cast your expert eye over the wards? Quite often, I see NHS wards weekly. " From your position in a FTSE-100 company? It can't be as a patient, as you've previously asserted that you go private as you don't trust the NHS? | |||
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" It doesn't change the fact that mid 20s is a good starting salary for any graduate. You really think so? honestly? fucking shambles Yeh I do. My FTSE100 company offers entry positions at 21k to new grads, and that's typical in my industry. Although the median is 30k, the average is mid 20s for grads. Early 20s for people saving lives, day in day out - if you think that's adequate, you're the kind of people that are making a mockery of this country! Eh, no, I'm just being realistic. They're young and newly qualified and still need a lot of training and support. The NHS hasn't got an endless supply of money, mid 20s is a decent basic salary for a new doctor. It's over 30k for some when they do overtime. What would you pay them? Bear in mind, it's funded by the public and not a private company. " You cannot compare a typical graduates who has undergone a BSc degree for 3 -4 years with a Doctors training. They are miles apart! Firstly it's 5 years at medical school. After graduation they have to undertake 2 more compulsory years on a foundation training programme. If they want to become a GP they will have a further 3 years of study. For those wishing to undertake particular specialities, there will be further training to undertake which can go on for years. For example, to train as a Surgeon, it can take 14 years. If you want to be a brain surgeon? Kiss goodbye to a personal life! You want a well qualified Healthcare professional to look after you? Then accept that the training is long and arduous with their entire career spent studying and keeping up to date with latest research and practice whilst working under high pressure You want gold star treatment? Then its time people woke up to the reality that it costs a lot of money to keep this nation healthy and save lives!!!! You cannot even dream of comparing that to a new graduate in the city. You are dreaming darling! !! | |||
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"People with brilliant minds, who dedicate their lives to helping others, deserve more money and less time in work. The new contract gives them exactly that but they don't want it so I am afraid it totally about money , they say it is about patient welfare but how can it be good for a patient to be treated by a doctor who has been on shift for over 24 hours and they try and say patients are not affected at weekends well I went in for a routine operation on a Friday which went well and was sent to ward on antibiotic my consultant wasn't in on the Saturday and a junior doctor decided I could come off the antibiotics without even seeing me I ended up in icu with sepsis and a superb u spent five weeks in hospital and at weekends never saw a doctor once so from a patients point of view weekends need to be normal working days they are in any other service related job One final point the one group of people who deserve a lot more money are the nurse You're right too with that last point. I see more over stretched nurses on wards with understaffed teams than I see exhausted over worked doctors. How often do you cast your expert eye over the wards? Quite often, I see NHS wards weekly. From your position in a FTSE-100 company? It can't be as a patient, as you've previously asserted that you go private as you don't trust the NHS?" I have worked with some trusts but no, it is as a patient. My private clinic is in an NHS hospital, I wait in shared wards until I see my consultant. | |||
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" It doesn't change the fact that mid 20s is a good starting salary for any graduate. You really think so? honestly? fucking shambles Yeh I do. My FTSE100 company offers entry positions at 21k to new grads, and that's typical in my industry. Although the median is 30k, the average is mid 20s for grads. Early 20s for people saving lives, day in day out - if you think that's adequate, you're the kind of people that are making a mockery of this country! Eh, no, I'm just being realistic. They're young and newly qualified and still need a lot of training and support. The NHS hasn't got an endless supply of money, mid 20s is a decent basic salary for a new doctor. It's over 30k for some when they do overtime. They deserve at least late 20s as starting even if newly qualified, the amount of rubbish they have to put up with, both from abusive patients and the nonsense they have to deal with from the gov/media. At the end of the day, they aren't doing "normal" "everday" jobs and they don't deserve the treatment this gov/(some of our) public are giving them. I have spoke to several doctors who took the plunge and went to Australia (too long to write on here) but if you do ever get to speak to someone who has done that, I guarantee you will be thinking, speaking of doctors in a completely different light and would be getting behind them instead of fuelling the fire that is driving them out. What would you pay them? Bear in mind, it's funded by the public and not a private company. " | |||
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"I completely ballsed that up, you're quote is at the end lol" See, they do receive late 20s or early 30s with overtime. It's exactly what you said they should receive. | |||
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"People with brilliant minds, who dedicate their lives to helping others, deserve more money and less time in work. The new contract gives them exactly that but they don't want it so I am afraid it totally about money , they say it is about patient welfare but how can it be good for a patient to be treated by a doctor who has been on shift for over 24 hours and they try and say patients are not affected at weekends well I went in for a routine operation on a Friday which went well and was sent to ward on antibiotic my consultant wasn't in on the Saturday and a junior doctor decided I could come off the antibiotics without even seeing me I ended up in icu with sepsis and a superb u spent five weeks in hospital and at weekends never saw a doctor once so from a patients point of view weekends need to be normal working days they are in any other service related job One final point the one group of people who deserve a lot more money are the nurse You're right too with that last point. I see more over stretched nurses on wards with understaffed teams than I see exhausted over worked doctors. How often do you cast your expert eye over the wards? Quite often, I see NHS wards weekly. From your position in a FTSE-100 company? It can't be as a patient, as you've previously asserted that you go private as you don't trust the NHS? I have worked with some trusts but no, it is as a patient. My private clinic is in an NHS hospital, I wait in shared wards until I see my consultant. " Really? That's an odd set up. Why would you wait on NHS wards for a private outpatient appointment? I know some private patients are treated from NHS beds, but not waiting around (and apparently taking notes) on a ward just to see their doctor. | |||
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"People with brilliant minds, who dedicate their lives to helping others, deserve more money and less time in work. The new contract gives them exactly that but they don't want it so I am afraid it totally about money , they say it is about patient welfare but how can it be good for a patient to be treated by a doctor who has been on shift for over 24 hours and they try and say patients are not affected at weekends well I went in for a routine operation on a Friday which went well and was sent to ward on antibiotic my consultant wasn't in on the Saturday and a junior doctor decided I could come off the antibiotics without even seeing me I ended up in icu with sepsis and a superb u spent five weeks in hospital and at weekends never saw a doctor once so from a patients point of view weekends need to be normal working days they are in any other service related job One final point the one group of people who deserve a lot more money are the nurse You're right too with that last point. I see more over stretched nurses on wards with understaffed teams than I see exhausted over worked doctors. How often do you cast your expert eye over the wards? Quite often, I see NHS wards weekly. From your position in a FTSE-100 company? It can't be as a patient, as you've previously asserted that you go private as you don't trust the NHS? I have worked with some trusts but no, it is as a patient. My private clinic is in an NHS hospital, I wait in shared wards until I see my consultant. Really? That's an odd set up. Why would you wait on NHS wards for a private outpatient appointment? I know some private patients are treated from NHS beds, but not waiting around (and apparently taking notes) on a ward just to see their doctor." I think it's a space issue, treatment is done in the private rooms. I don't really want to discuss as it'd probably make me identifiable. You're welcome to PM if you really are that interested, but it's not that interesting. | |||
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"Junior doctors are not new doctors. Moat of them will have been in the job for years and they know the pay and conditions so either like it or leave. The NHS is badly managed not under funded." Many do leave for better paid jobs with far better conditions in the private sector and abroad. Is that acceptable then? | |||
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"In other unreported news by the MSM Cameron admits it wasn't Labours fault for the financial crash!! Oh really Dave, not what you were saying during the 2010 election you lying cunt Nobody said labour caused the crash, they said they didn't save any money during the good times so we didn't have any rainy day money. Which is true. Cameron says their financial irresponsibly was a direct bearing on the UK's financial instability! Yet at B&Q today he said it was a global issue? And how is that supposedly contradictory? His definition of financial irresponsibility probably means increasing real spending 11/13 years and never saving for a rainy day. Name a country that runs on a surplus? Countries aren't meant to run on a surplus indefinately because they aren't profit making businesses. Some years you run surplus, some years you run deficit. But eventually you do have to pay your bills so it's better to try and run a surplus while your economy is doing well than when it isn't. " The problem was reliance on financial services as a major source of tax revenue prior to 2008. Coalition government committed to austerity was the wrong approach as the velocity of the economy needed to be maintained not stalled. Still we are all in it together. | |||
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"Junior doctors are not new doctors. Moat of them will have been in the job for years and they know the pay and conditions so either like it or leave. The NHS is badly managed not under funded. Many do leave for better paid jobs with far better conditions in the private sector and abroad. Is that acceptable then?" There's no statistics that support an increase in emigration of NHS workers due to the failing model. It hasn't increased or decreased much in years. | |||
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"People with brilliant minds, who dedicate their lives to helping others, deserve more money and less time in work. The new contract gives them exactly that but they don't want it so I am afraid it totally about money , they say it is about patient welfare but how can it be good for a patient to be treated by a doctor who has been on shift for over 24 hours and they try and say patients are not affected at weekends well I went in for a routine operation on a Friday which went well and was sent to ward on antibiotic my consultant wasn't in on the Saturday and a junior doctor decided I could come off the antibiotics without even seeing me I ended up in icu with sepsis and a superb u spent five weeks in hospital and at weekends never saw a doctor once so from a patients point of view weekends need to be normal working days they are in any other service related job One final point the one group of people who deserve a lot more money are the nurse You're right too with that last point. I see more over stretched nurses on wards with understaffed teams than I see exhausted over worked doctors. How often do you cast your expert eye over the wards? Quite often, I see NHS wards weekly. " Seeing it and working in it are two very different things! I know all about THOSE visits! And the 'expert ' patient! People who think they know because they visit the ward. Laughable! Roll your sleeves up and work a 14 hour day on your feet. Forget about lunch breaks. You might be lucky to grab 20 minutes. You better get used to holding your bladder because your pee will be brown by the time you get home.... from dehydration! Hope you don't mind being yelled at and abused or someone trying to hit you? You better not be squeamish about body fluids because there are a lot of them and they don't smell too great either! But make sure you keep smiling won't you? Especially when the CQC come round?????????? All ok? Great...we will see you tomorrow and the day after..when we will start all over again. Didn't I mention the shifts are 12 hours long? Yes I know you have been here 14 hours but you can't go now because of staff shortages, sick patients, workload. Anyway.... you would be disciplined if abandon your patients! You visit wards? Don't make me laugh! | |||
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"Junior doctors are not new doctors. Moat of them will have been in the job for years and they know the pay and conditions so either like it or leave. The NHS is badly managed not under funded." The NHS is recognises as one of the most efficient health services in the world. As a percentage of GDP we spend less than any other European country other than Albania. We also spend far less than the USA, Australia or Canada. That percentage has always been low, but has fallen exponentially in the last 5 years and will drop below 8% this year for the first time since the NHS was set up in 1948. | |||
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"People with brilliant minds, who dedicate their lives to helping others, deserve more money and less time in work. The new contract gives them exactly that but they don't want it so I am afraid it totally about money , they say it is about patient welfare but how can it be good for a patient to be treated by a doctor who has been on shift for over 24 hours and they try and say patients are not affected at weekends well I went in for a routine operation on a Friday which went well and was sent to ward on antibiotic my consultant wasn't in on the Saturday and a junior doctor decided I could come off the antibiotics without even seeing me I ended up in icu with sepsis and a superb u spent five weeks in hospital and at weekends never saw a doctor once so from a patients point of view weekends need to be normal working days they are in any other service related job One final point the one group of people who deserve a lot more money are the nurse You're right too with that last point. I see more over stretched nurses on wards with understaffed teams than I see exhausted over worked doctors. How often do you cast your expert eye over the wards? Quite often, I see NHS wards weekly. Seeing it and working in it are two very different things! I know all about THOSE visits! And the 'expert ' patient! People who think they know because they visit the ward. Laughable! Roll your sleeves up and work a 14 hour day on your feet. Forget about lunch breaks. You might be lucky to grab 20 minutes. You better get used to holding your bladder because your pee will be brown by the time you get home.... from dehydration! Hope you don't mind being yelled at and abused or someone trying to hit you? You better not be squeamish about body fluids because there are a lot of them and they don't smell too great either! But make sure you keep smiling won't you? Especially when the CQC come round?????????? All ok? Great...we will see you tomorrow and the day after..when we will start all over again. Didn't I mention the shifts are 12 hours long? Yes I know you have been here 14 hours but you can't go now because of staff shortages, sick patients, workload. Anyway.... you would be disciplined if abandon your patients! You visit wards? Don't make me laugh!" Give it a rest. I have a disease that will eventually kill me, your whinging about something you don't even do anymore is so asinine. Get a grip and use some perspective. | |||
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"Junior doctors are not new doctors. Moat of them will have been in the job for years and they know the pay and conditions so either like it or leave. The NHS is badly managed not under funded. Many do leave for better paid jobs with far better conditions in the private sector and abroad. Is that acceptable then? There's no statistics that support an increase in emigration of NHS workers due to the failing model. It hasn't increased or decreased much in years. " Since the dispute began in 2013/14 the number of Junior Doctors applying to work abroad has doubled from around 4000 per year, to 8,000. That's one example - if there aren't official government statistics, there's probably a good reason n'est pas? Anecdotally and by personal experience I know that it's the case. | |||
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"Junior doctors are not new doctors. Moat of them will have been in the job for years and they know the pay and conditions so either like it or leave. The NHS is badly managed not under funded. Many do leave for better paid jobs with far better conditions in the private sector and abroad. Is that acceptable then? There's no statistics that support an increase in emigration of NHS workers due to the failing model. It hasn't increased or decreased much in years. Since the dispute began in 2013/14 the number of Junior Doctors applying to work abroad has doubled from around 4000 per year, to 8,000. That's one example - if there aren't official government statistics, there's probably a good reason n'est pas? Anecdotally and by personal experience I know that it's the case." Sadly a lot of the statistics supporting both sides of this argument are only anecdotal. | |||
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"I think the point Subby was making is that if you think anyone goes into nursing for the money or that it all boils down to salary, and you base this theory on observations made from the public side of the fence, then you're very much mistaken " No, she was telling me how hard it is to work and forgot that the patients are in a much worse position. She needs to get a grip and stop acting as if medical professionals have the worst lot. | |||
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"I completely ballsed that up, you're quote is at the end lol See, they do receive late 20s or early 30s with overtime. It's exactly what you said they should receive. " With overtime, not just normal overtime, working stupidly long and unsociable hours just to earn a remotely justifiable salary, they should be entitled to that without the overtime! | |||
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"I completely ballsed that up, you're quote is at the end lol See, they do receive late 20s or early 30s with overtime. It's exactly what you said they should receive. With overtime, not just normal overtime, working stupidly long and unsociable hours just to earn a remotely justifiable salary, they should be entitled to that without the overtime!" Nah normal overtime. Illegal overtime is where the new contract is supposed to affect salaries. | |||
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"People with brilliant minds, who dedicate their lives to helping others, deserve more money and less time in work. The new contract gives them exactly that but they don't want it so I am afraid it totally about money , they say it is about patient welfare but how can it be good for a patient to be treated by a doctor who has been on shift for over 24 hours and they try and say patients are not affected at weekends well I went in for a routine operation on a Friday which went well and was sent to ward on antibiotic my consultant wasn't in on the Saturday and a junior doctor decided I could come off the antibiotics without even seeing me I ended up in icu with sepsis and a superb u spent five weeks in hospital and at weekends never saw a doctor once so from a patients point of view weekends need to be normal working days they are in any other service related job One final point the one group of people who deserve a lot more money are the nurse You're right too with that last point. I see more over stretched nurses on wards with understaffed teams than I see exhausted over worked doctors. How often do you cast your expert eye over the wards? Quite often, I see NHS wards weekly. Seeing it and working in it are two very different things! I know all about THOSE visits! And the 'expert ' patient! People who think they know because they visit the ward. Laughable! Roll your sleeves up and work a 14 hour day on your feet. Forget about lunch breaks. You might be lucky to grab 20 minutes. You better get used to holding your bladder because your pee will be brown by the time you get home.... from dehydration! Hope you don't mind being yelled at and abused or someone trying to hit you? You better not be squeamish about body fluids because there are a lot of them and they don't smell too great either! But make sure you keep smiling won't you? Especially when the CQC come round?????????? All ok? Great...we will see you tomorrow and the day after..when we will start all over again. Didn't I mention the shifts are 12 hours long? Yes I know you have been here 14 hours but you can't go now because of staff shortages, sick patients, workload. Anyway.... you would be disciplined if abandon your patients! You visit wards? Don't make me laugh! Give it a rest. I have a disease that will eventually kill me, your whinging about something you don't even do anymore is so asinine. Get a grip and use some perspective. " Something I don't DO anymore???? Whinging? Perspective? ?? If you had more gratitude and respect for those of us who have cared for people like you, you would never show yourself up and make such a statement. I have worked in the NHS for over 25 years and I STILL work WITH the NHS. You cannot possibly speak from the experience of an experienced healthcare professional. You threw out the question at the start of the thread and to read your comments without that experience is extremely irritating. I am sorry for your medical condition and I am sure we all wish you well with that but it has nothing to do with the debate which YOU started. You have made some highly inflammatory statements such as describing Doctors as 'dodgy'. Your 'facts' are poorly researched. What you choose to believe is your choice but don't assume others will agree with you and do NOT dismiss my 25 years of experience in the NHS as 'asinine' young lady. You wouldn't be on the receipt of such care right now, if it wasn't for such 'asinine ' healthcare professionals. Where do you think the Doctors and Nurses gained their training and experience? The NHS. Have more respect and a little more gratitude. That disrespectful and ungrateful post of yours has made me extremely angry. So I am bidding you goodnight! | |||
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"I think the point Subby was making is that if you think anyone goes into nursing for the money or that it all boils down to salary, and you base this theory on observations made from the public side of the fence, then you're very much mistaken No, she was telling me how hard it is to work and forgot that the patients are in a much worse position. She needs to get a grip and stop acting as if medical professionals have the worst lot. " You ASSUME I am not a patient also!!!!! However I a won't use that as an emotional crutch as it's too easy to do. At NO POINT do I forget the patients. Contrary to your narrow thinking, the entire debate is about the safety of PATIENT CARE! YOU and I are patients! As many people on FAB are. But you lack the foresight to see this. | |||
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"People with brilliant minds, who dedicate their lives to helping others, deserve more money and less time in work. The new contract gives them exactly that but they don't want it so I am afraid it totally about money , they say it is about patient welfare but how can it be good for a patient to be treated by a doctor who has been on shift for over 24 hours and they try and say patients are not affected at weekends well I went in for a routine operation on a Friday which went well and was sent to ward on antibiotic my consultant wasn't in on the Saturday and a junior doctor decided I could come off the antibiotics without even seeing me I ended up in icu with sepsis and a superb u spent five weeks in hospital and at weekends never saw a doctor once so from a patients point of view weekends need to be normal working days they are in any other service related job One final point the one group of people who deserve a lot more money are the nurse You're right too with that last point. I see more over stretched nurses on wards with understaffed teams than I see exhausted over worked doctors. How often do you cast your expert eye over the wards? Quite often, I see NHS wards weekly. Seeing it and working in it are two very different things! I know all about THOSE visits! And the 'expert ' patient! People who think they know because they visit the ward. Laughable! Roll your sleeves up and work a 14 hour day on your feet. Forget about lunch breaks. You might be lucky to grab 20 minutes. You better get used to holding your bladder because your pee will be brown by the time you get home.... from dehydration! Hope you don't mind being yelled at and abused or someone trying to hit you? You better not be squeamish about body fluids because there are a lot of them and they don't smell too great either! But make sure you keep smiling won't you? Especially when the CQC come round?????????? All ok? Great...we will see you tomorrow and the day after..when we will start all over again. Didn't I mention the shifts are 12 hours long? Yes I know you have been here 14 hours but you can't go now because of staff shortages, sick patients, workload. Anyway.... you would be disciplined if abandon your patients! You visit wards? Don't make me laugh! Give it a rest. I have a disease that will eventually kill me, your whinging about something you don't even do anymore is so asinine. Get a grip and use some perspective. Something I don't DO anymore???? Whinging? Perspective? ?? If you had more gratitude and respect for those of us who have cared for people like you, you would never show yourself up and make such a statement. I have worked in the NHS for over 25 years and I STILL work WITH the NHS. You cannot possibly speak from the experience of an experienced healthcare professional. You threw out the question at the start of the thread and to read your comments without that experience is extremely irritating. I am sorry for your medical condition and I am sure we all wish you well with that but it has nothing to do with the debate which YOU started. You have made some highly inflammatory statements such as describing Doctors as 'dodgy'. Your 'facts' are poorly researched. What you choose to believe is your choice but don't assume others will agree with you and do NOT dismiss my 25 years of experience in the NHS as 'asinine' young lady. You wouldn't be on the receipt of such care right now, if it wasn't for such 'asinine ' healthcare professionals. Where do you think the Doctors and Nurses gained their training and experience? The NHS. Have more respect and a little more gratitude. That disrespectful and ungrateful post of yours has made me extremely angry. So I am bidding you goodnight!" I was asked why I was visiting wards, I explained why - that's the context of my illness coming up. You said "don't make me laugh" as if my visiting of wards is for trivial reasons, you sound self absorbed. You are asinine and you do need to get a grip. Trust me, my situation is worse than you holding in your urine for a bit longer than normal. Hopefully you don't tell people who are truly ill about how awful your job is, at least you're able to do it. You sound like the kind of person who just complains about their lot in life rather than appreciating what's good, which is rather sad to me. | |||
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"I think the point Subby was making is that if you think anyone goes into nursing for the money or that it all boils down to salary, and you base this theory on observations made from the public side of the fence, then you're very much mistaken No, she was telling me how hard it is to work and forgot that the patients are in a much worse position. She needs to get a grip and stop acting as if medical professionals have the worst lot. You ASSUME I am not a patient also!!!!! However I a won't use that as an emotional crutch as it's too easy to do. At NO POINT do I forget the patients. Contrary to your narrow thinking, the entire debate is about the safety of PATIENT CARE! YOU and I are patients! As many people on FAB are. But you lack the foresight to see this. " No, I don't assume you're not a patient. I just think you're preachy and ignorant of facts that are contrary to what you want to believe. It's an immature way of digesting stuff, kinda like an angry toddler. | |||
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" I was asked why I was visiting wards, I explained why - that's the context of my illness coming up. You said "don't make me laugh" as if my visiting of wards is for trivial reasons, you sound self absorbed. You are asinine and you do need to get a grip. Trust me, my situation is worse than you holding in your urine for a bit longer than normal. Hopefully you don't tell people who are truly ill about how awful your job is, at least you're able to do it. You sound like the kind of person who just complains about their lot in life rather than appreciating what's good, which is rather sad to me. " Hey c'mon, argue your point fair enough but there's no need to be nasty | |||
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"Subbykitten your passion and insight/knowledge into what is happening is inspiring. I believe this government has no other agenda than an end goal of privatisation, a national disaster if it occurs. The fight with junior doctors is just the start, it will move onto the next cohort of workers until it is unsustainable. " It is heartbreaking when we have worked so hard. If we don't fight back then patients suffer. They already are suffering. Not being able to give the care you want to give because of the political battles that ensue and stop us from doing so. It isn't a case of Doctors or nurses or patient experience and comparing who is worse off. If those providing the care are not provided with the resources to give that care to the highest standard then patients will suffer. People do not understand the challenges of working under such pressure. I have become very frustrated at this lack of understanding. If those caring for others are not cared about, how do we do the job we are trained for? We rarely complain. But pressure builds up. There is only so much we can take. By pressure, I mean.... not having the resources and safe staffing levels to keep patients SAFE! We need to be safe too! We need to have time to eat, sleep, drink, go to the loo and be FIT to care! Without enough staff, knowing things could go wrong is an awful feeling. I am experienced but the more junior staff struggle even more with this. Because we CARE about our patients. The debate around the Doctors strike is about SAFE patient care. Contrary to what has been suggested on this thread (!), I care very very much about my patients and we work as a team to care for very sick people. I do not regret any of it. I would do it again and I still do. Just as my colleagues do. Our patients are the reason we return everyday! I am STILL a healthcare professional but left the NHS in only recent months. But to read some derogatory insulting comments on here when I and others have worked tirelessly to give of our best to care for sick patients is extremely hurtful. Noone would dream of suggesting that our challenges are worse than our patients. But to be called stupid (asinine) and a 'toddler' amongst many things, is really beyond the pale. To describe Doctors as 'dodgy'. It is very hard to read that sort of thing and not get angry. | |||
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"Subbykitten your passion and insight/knowledge into what is happening is inspiring. I believe this government has no other agenda than an end goal of privatisation, a national disaster if it occurs. The fight with junior doctors is just the start, it will move onto the next cohort of workers until it is unsustainable. It is heartbreaking when we have worked so hard. If we don't fight back then patients suffer. They already are suffering. Not being able to give the care you want to give because of the political battles that ensue and stop us from doing so. It isn't a case of Doctors or nurses or patient experience and comparing who is worse off. If those providing the care are not provided with the resources to give that care to the highest standard then patients will suffer. People do not understand the challenges of working under such pressure. I have become very frustrated at this lack of understanding. If those caring for others are not cared about, how do we do the job we are trained for? We rarely complain. But pressure builds up. There is only so much we can take. By pressure, I mean.... not having the resources and safe staffing levels to keep patients SAFE! We need to be safe too! We need to have time to eat, sleep, drink, go to the loo and be FIT to care! Without enough staff, knowing things could go wrong is an awful feeling. I am experienced but the more junior staff struggle even more with this. Because we CARE about our patients. The debate around the Doctors strike is about SAFE patient care. Contrary to what has been suggested on this thread (!), I care very very much about my patients and we work as a team to care for very sick people. I do not regret any of it. I would do it again and I still do. Just as my colleagues do. Our patients are the reason we return everyday! I am STILL a healthcare professional but left the NHS in only recent months. But to read some derogatory insulting comments on here when I and others have worked tirelessly to give of our best to care for sick patients is extremely hurtful. Noone would dream of suggesting that our challenges are worse than our patients. But to be called stupid (asinine) and a 'toddler' amongst many things, is really beyond the pale. To describe Doctors as 'dodgy'. It is very hard to read that sort of thing and not get angry. " I second this. Heartbreaking to read someone describing us as dodgy | |||
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"Subbykitten your passion and insight/knowledge into what is happening is inspiring. I believe this government has no other agenda than an end goal of privatisation, a national disaster if it occurs. The fight with junior doctors is just the start, it will move onto the next cohort of workers until it is unsustainable. It is heartbreaking when we have worked so hard. If we don't fight back then patients suffer. They already are suffering. Not being able to give the care you want to give because of the political battles that ensue and stop us from doing so. It isn't a case of Doctors or nurses or patient experience and comparing who is worse off. If those providing the care are not provided with the resources to give that care to the highest standard then patients will suffer. People do not understand the challenges of working under such pressure. I have become very frustrated at this lack of understanding. If those caring for others are not cared about, how do we do the job we are trained for? We rarely complain. But pressure builds up. There is only so much we can take. By pressure, I mean.... not having the resources and safe staffing levels to keep patients SAFE! We need to be safe too! We need to have time to eat, sleep, drink, go to the loo and be FIT to care! Without enough staff, knowing things could go wrong is an awful feeling. I am experienced but the more junior staff struggle even more with this. Because we CARE about our patients. The debate around the Doctors strike is about SAFE patient care. Contrary to what has been suggested on this thread (!), I care very very much about my patients and we work as a team to care for very sick people. I do not regret any of it. I would do it again and I still do. Just as my colleagues do. Our patients are the reason we return everyday! I am STILL a healthcare professional but left the NHS in only recent months. But to read some derogatory insulting comments on here when I and others have worked tirelessly to give of our best to care for sick patients is extremely hurtful. Noone would dream of suggesting that our challenges are worse than our patients. But to be called stupid (asinine) and a 'toddler' amongst many things, is really beyond the pale. To describe Doctors as 'dodgy'. It is very hard to read that sort of thing and not get angry. I second this. Heartbreaking to read someone describing us as dodgy "couldnt agree more | |||
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"Taking a stretched workforce and spreading it further across more days, (especially when the weekend effect has been disproved) is completely nonsensical. The student nurses have already had their bursaries taken, which group next? Demoralised, tired staff will make more mistakes. How can such a thing be safe." I dont know ! It's a no brained isn't it? If you have exhausted demoralised staff, and you don't look after them, they make mistakes. They become ill which results in short staffing. That in turn affects patient care. Patients complain. CQC inspect the NHS. The NHS gets a fine and put in special measures. That adds more stress and so it goes on and on. The NHS is already suffering huge nursing shortage as well as shortage of doctors as we all know. To remove student nurse bursaries is suicidal. It will be interesting to see how many people are still interested in applying for nurse training, given the fact they will be in financial debt and entering a profession that has recieved such a high level of criticism in the media. Add to that, most nurses work in the NHS on graduation at least. Knowing the state of the NHS, I cannot fathom how ANY government is going to be able to recruit high calibre candidates to apply to University for the purpose of being a Registered Nurse. How will they make it attractive? Especially without even a bursary to support themselves through their training. People forget that student nurses are not like other university students. They work shifts on their placements which include weekends and nightshifts. This is part of their training. It isn't a paid job. Yet they contribute massively to the care of patients. I despair. | |||
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"Bottom line is we need to respect and take care of those in the NHS because they selflessly take care of us. Name calling is out of line an uncalled for. Let's support them (unless they start asking for Ferraris to drive to work in) and they will look after us! Simples! On a personal note thank you to all those wonderful people who have or do work in the NHS caring for this nation. " Thankyou. The NHS remains an incredible institution. I don't think any of us realise how lucky we are to have it. It's only those who go to America and have seen the astronomical medical bill for things we so easily take for granted, or travel to a less fortunate country whose healthcare is poor, that we know, however sick we become, we will be taken care of. It won't be perfect. We may have to wait in line. But we will recieve that care and we won't come home to a huge medical bill or have to fight with expensive health insurance companies to pay for it. # God bless NHS. Goodnight x | |||
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"I think the point Subby was making is that if you think anyone goes into nursing for the money or that it all boils down to salary, and you base this theory on observations made from the public side of the fence, then you're very much mistaken No, she was telling me how hard it is to work and forgot that the patients are in a much worse position. She needs to get a grip and stop acting as if medical professionals have the worst lot. You ASSUME I am not a patient also!!!!! However I a won't use that as an emotional crutch as it's too easy to do. At NO POINT do I forget the patients. Contrary to your narrow thinking, the entire debate is about the safety of PATIENT CARE! YOU and I are patients! As many people on FAB are. But you lack the foresight to see this. No, I don't assume you're not a patient. I just think you're preachy and ignorant of facts that are contrary to what you want to believe. It's an immature way of digesting stuff, kinda like an angry toddler. " And despite your rhetoric and false assumptions towards me, I forgive you and still wish you well and hope you have a peaceful weekend. | |||
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"Us blokes will stay on a bit longer for some perving "if you insist | |||
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"22k compared to 40k plus a car working for the likes of Aldi. The work involved in getting a medical degree is 3 times that of a 3 year degree. Even the latest deal on the table will see junior doctors 25% or more worse of than they were 5 years ago. Would you be happy with that sort of pay cut. Oh and these trainees can literally have your life in their hands, treat them with more respect. 22k + extras isn't bad for a graduate, and it's completely average for all graduates. Comparing it to a private industry doesn't make sense." Of course you need to compare it to private industry. Do you not think the majority of doctors could earn more working in another sector? You need to look at the options a doctor has. With a medical degree your starting pay in the management consultancy sector is around £10k more than working for the nhs for fewer hours on paper. Then factor in that you will never work a Christmas again and it starts to look appealing. It is hardly surprising that the nhs is haemorrhaging doctors and nurses. It will reach critical mass soon when people start to notice how short staffed most departments are simply because they can't find anyone to do the work | |||
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" It doesn't change the fact that mid 20s is a good starting salary for any graduate. You really think so? honestly? fucking shambles Yeh I do. My FTSE100 company offers entry positions at 21k to new grads, and that's typical in my industry. Although the median is 30k, the average is mid 20s for grads. Early 20s for people saving lives, day in day out - if you think that's adequate, you're the kind of people that are making a mockery of this country! Eh, no, I'm just being realistic. They're young and newly qualified and still need a lot of training and support. The NHS hasn't got an endless supply of money, mid 20s is a decent basic salary for a new doctor. It's over 30k for some when they do overtime. What would you pay them? Bear in mind, it's funded by the public and not a private company. You cannot compare a typical graduates who has undergone a BSc degree for 3 -4 years with a Doctors training. They are miles apart! Firstly it's 5 years at medical school. After graduation they have to undertake 2 more compulsory years on a foundation training programme. If they want to become a GP they will have a further 3 years of study. For those wishing to undertake particular specialities, there will be further training to undertake which can go on for years. For example, to train as a Surgeon, it can take 14 years. If you want to be a brain surgeon? Kiss goodbye to a personal life! You want a well qualified Healthcare professional to look after you? Then accept that the training is long and arduous with their entire career spent studying and keeping up to date with latest research and practice whilst working under high pressure You want gold star treatment? Then its time people woke up to the reality that it costs a lot of money to keep this nation healthy and save lives!!!! You cannot even dream of comparing that to a new graduate in the city. You are dreaming darling! !! " Theyve also got to lay for tbe exams to become a specialist. | |||
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"In other unreported news by the MSM Cameron admits it wasn't Labours fault for the financial crash!! Oh really Dave, not what you were saying during the 2010 election you lying cunt Nobody said labour caused the crash, they said they didn't save any money during the good times so we didn't have any rainy day money. Which is true. Cameron says their financial irresponsibly was a direct bearing on the UK's financial instability! Yet at B&Q today he said it was a global issue? And how is that supposedly contradictory? His definition of financial irresponsibility probably means increasing real spending 11/13 years and never saving for a rainy day. Name a country that runs on a surplus? Countries aren't meant to run on a surplus indefinately because they aren't profit making businesses. Some years you run surplus, some years you run deficit. But eventually you do have to pay your bills so it's better to try and run a surplus while your economy is doing well than when it isn't. The problem was reliance on financial services as a major source of tax revenue prior to 2008. Coalition government committed to austerity was the wrong approach as the velocity of the economy needed to be maintained not stalled. Still we are all in it together. " No the problem was increasing real government spending 11/13 years. | |||
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"Think they must stand their ground & not be bullied into signing their souls away "I agree, It is good to see them stand and fight for what they truly believe in So many employees of all positions crumple away and give in to employers, I have seen this hand on with offshore oil workers, they could have stood strong together and fought for better conditions but each individual thought of their own immediate wage packet first, bent over and took a direct fucking from their employers . sometimes you have to stand and fight for what you believe in | |||
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