FabSwingers.com forum: Public Schools

By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

Should fee paying schools be abolished in favour of a fully state funded alternative?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Should fee paying schools be abolished in favour of a fully state funded alternative?"

That will never happen whist there is the haves and have nots.

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

Its interesting that three quarters of the cabinet and half the Labour front bench went to fee paying schools?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Why? The people who pay for schooling their children also pay has, usually at the higher rate, so logically you would create a more of an issue because the state would have to fund the children who would attend a fee paying school with no extra income then now.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Why? The people who pay for schooling their children also pay has, usually at the higher rate, so logically you would create a more of an issue because the state would have to fund the children who would attend a fee paying school with no extra income then now."

Pay tax, which helps fund state schools currently *

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By *olgateMan
over a year ago

on the road to nowhere in particular

It's a big earner for this country for foreign students

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By *T_LEECouple (MM)
over a year ago

near you

[Removed by poster at 18/05/16 20:23:26]

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By *erbyDalesCplCouple
over a year ago

Derbyshire

Why stop at schools? Why not ban everything posh and expensive that rich people choose to spend their money on? Just give everyone the bare minimum instead.

I'm sure they tried something similar to this in the USSR/China and it worked a treat didn't it?

Mr ddc

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By *irtyGirlWoman
over a year ago

Edinburgh

I don't think choice should be abolished. If people want to spend money on school fees then that's entirely their choice. What benefit is it to abolish them? Genuine question... why does it matter?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Should fee paying schools be abolished in favour of a fully state funded alternative?"

No and neither should the name Rupert

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

[Removed by poster at 18/05/16 20:25:34]

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Should fee paying schools be abolished in favour of a fully state funded alternative?"

What people choose to spend their money on is their business surely?

If people choose to pay for a better education for their kids good for them, I'd do the same

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Both my bros went to private school and I went to a comp. We are all clever but my parents recognized that I'm more of an hands on person then an academic person. I think my parents made the rite choices for all three of us and as far as the expense goes. I get more financial help now off my parents as I need it more then my bros do. Xxx

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By *LCCCouple
over a year ago

Cambridge

"I don't think choice should be abolished. If people want to spend money on school fees then that's entirely their choice. What benefit is it to abolish them? Genuine question... why does it matter?

Not everyone has choice anyway. Maybe you do if you grow up in a big city, but if you grew up in the countryside like me there is only one school for miles around. There is no choice.

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By *its_n_piecesCouple
over a year ago

it's possible that all schools will charge fees in time to come

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

"Why stop at schools? Why not ban everything posh and expensive that rich people choose to spend their money on? Just give everyone the bare minimum instead.

I'm sure they tried something similar to this in the USSR/China and it worked a treat didn't it?

Mr ddc"
Is education posh? I thought it was a right? If you consider education in the same light as luxury goods then what hope have we? The issue is one of resource in my view and an equalling of the spend per pupil on state schools to the equivalent of a public school would be of value in my view. As for your comments on a planned economy no it does not work as has been proved.

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By *irtyGirlWoman
over a year ago

Edinburgh

"I don't think choice should be abolished. If people want to spend money on school fees then that's entirely their choice. What benefit is it to abolish them? Genuine question... why does it matter?

Not everyone has choice anyway. Maybe you do if you grow up in a big city, but if you grew up in the countryside like me there is only one school for miles around. There is no choice."

If you have the cash, you have the choice. Boarding schools are available to rural folks too. It's not about distance, it's about affluence I think? I don't know, I went to state school and I was far from academic so in my view it would have been a total waste of money.

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

"I don't think choice should be abolished. If people want to spend money on school fees then that's entirely their choice. What benefit is it to abolish them? Genuine question... why does it matter?

"
Its one of the great divides of our nation when you consider the majority of the cabinet were educated privately at some point their lives.

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By *erbyDalesCplCouple
over a year ago

Derbyshire

"I don't think choice should be abolished. If people want to spend money on school fees then that's entirely their choice. What benefit is it to abolish them? Genuine question... why does it matter?

Not everyone has choice anyway. Maybe you do if you grow up in a big city, but if you grew up in the countryside like me there is only one school for miles around. There is no choice."

We are in the same position, as a result of the choice we made to move here. We checked out the schools before we made the move, and ruled out places that put us within the catchment of schools we didn't like.

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By *irtyGirlWoman
over a year ago

Edinburgh

"I don't think choice should be abolished. If people want to spend money on school fees then that's entirely their choice. What benefit is it to abolish them? Genuine question... why does it matter?

Its one of the great divides of our nation when you consider the majority of the cabinet were educated privately at some point their lives."

I'm not sure you need a private education to be an utter tosspot though?

Maybe they have a special program to teach them how to be tossers?

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By *its_n_piecesCouple
over a year ago

"Is education posh? I thought it was a right?"

being sent to school is more of a legal obligation than a right is it not?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

If they abolish public schools we will lose the soggy biscuit game..

I am not sure I can live in a world without the soggy biscuit game

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By *erbyDalesCplCouple
over a year ago

Derbyshire

Are you in education OP? Because your views sound very similar to those of the NUT "we are compared unfavorably with public schools, rather than seeking ways to improve our own standards, let's break out the pitchforks and run then outta town"

(Though I think they may word it differently)

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Why stop at schools? Why not ban everything posh and expensive that rich people choose to spend their money on? Just give everyone the bare minimum instead.

I'm sure they tried something similar to this in the USSR/China and it worked a treat didn't it?

Mr ddcIs education posh? I thought it was a right? If you consider education in the same light as luxury goods then what hope have we? The issue is one of resource in my view and an equalling of the spend per pupil on state schools to the equivalent of a public school would be of value in my view. As for your comments on a planned economy no it does not work as has been proved."

How would you ensure that those paying the fees of school would continue to do so when others access it freely? I don't see how closing fee paying schools gives more money to state schools.

Given that a large % are either foreign nationals or expat community, why would they pay or send their children to a state school in the UK if what they seek is boarding and every other country offers it?

And could the sane not be argued about libraries. We all should have access therefore those who buy books should stop, rent from a library and donate their annual spend to the system to maintain the library that now must cater for all.

Would you like to extend that view to private health care also?

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

"Are you in education OP? Because your views sound very similar to those of the NUT "we are compared unfavorably with public schools, rather than seeking ways to improve our own standards, let's break out the pitchforks and run then outta town"

(Though I think they may word it differently)"
Far from it I work in an industry where market forces run riot and the industry motto is get them before they get you! I just think that education and health, in particular, should not be subject to the market and the ability to pay to receive the best provision.

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By *erbyDalesCplCouple
over a year ago

Derbyshire

(Though I think they may word it differently) Far from it I work in an industry where market forces run riot and the industry motto is get them before they get you! I just think that education and health, in particular, should not be subject to the market and the ability to pay to receive the best provision."

So you'd ban private healthcare too. Interesting. How about private care homes?

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

"Why stop at schools? Why not ban everything posh and expensive that rich people choose to spend their money on? Just give everyone the bare minimum instead.

I'm sure they tried something similar to this in the USSR/China and it worked a treat didn't it?

How would you ensure that those paying the fees of school would continue to do so when others access it freely? I don't see how closing fee paying schools gives more money to state schools.

Would you like to extend that view to private health care also? "

I would extend non market provision to healthcare. As for funding I would take the private sector as a model analyse the spend per pupil in total and apply that level of funding across the board. It would be costed so taxation could be adjusted accordingly to pay for the adjustment?

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By *inky-MinxWoman
over a year ago

Grantham

"Why stop at schools? Why not ban everything posh and expensive that rich people choose to spend their money on? Just give everyone the bare minimum instead.

I'm sure they tried something similar to this in the USSR/China and it worked a treat didn't it?

Mr ddc"

Well said

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By *inaTitzTV/TS
over a year ago

Titz Towers, North Notts

I'd scrap their charitable status

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

When do the purges start??

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

So you'd ban private healthcare too. Interesting. How about private care homes?"
Read the post above I am not for banning anything I am advocating improving service levels to those that are considered excellent in the sector.

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

"When do the purges start?? "
Is that on CBeebies?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I'm sure Sweden only has state schools.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I don't think choice should be abolished. If people want to spend money on school fees then that's entirely their choice. What benefit is it to abolish them? Genuine question... why does it matter?

Its one of the great divides of our nation when you consider the majority of the cabinet were educated privately at some point their lives.

I'm not sure you need a private education to be an utter tosspot though?

Maybe they have a special program to teach them how to be tossers?

Yes, it's run by the BMW driver school!

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By *erbyDalesCplCouple
over a year ago

Derbyshire

So you'd ban private healthcare too. Interesting. How about private care homes? Read the post above I am not for banning anything I am advocating improving service levels to those that are considered excellent in the sector."

"Abolish" and "ban" sound similar in my books. I'm just trying to establish where you draw the line, you have already mentioned education and healthcare, so what about elderly care?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"When do the purges start?? "

Yeah! I've a while list. ......

xxx

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I (MrJ) can't see why private schools should be abolished.

I was a student at a school that currently charges over £15k a year. It did me no harm and I respect other people and property.

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By *ce WingerMan
over a year ago

P.O. Box DE1 0NQ

After me mam died 2 days before ma 7th birthday, I was sent to boarding school. Ma dad worked as a foreman in a foundry, so was not what you could call posh or rich. He got a government grant to help pay the fees.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"When do the purges start?? Is that on CBeebies?"

If you like...

Public schools, private health care, private pensions, private homeownership all take pressure off of the tax burden...

Or should we aim for a communist utopia that cannot be achieved by human beings current mental development? In doing so; by aiming for this utopia when we are not ready as a species the world will further degenerate (see DPKR, CSSR,PDRC etc.)

For now the world is as, it will change, when we move beyond corruption... and that is not something I envisage in my lifetime.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Why stop at schools? Why not ban everything posh and expensive that rich people choose to spend their money on? Just give everyone the bare minimum instead.

I'm sure they tried something similar to this in the USSR/China and it worked a treat didn't it?

Mr ddc"

I see nothing wrong with people who have the money to try and do the best by their children so they suceed in life.

Id say a bigger issue is supporting fanilies at the other end of the spectrum to help them get kids who wont go to school in education.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"After me mam died 2 days before ma 7th birthday, I was sent to boarding school. Ma dad worked as a foreman in a foundry, so was not what you could call posh or rich. He got a government grant to help pay the fees. "

Many private schools also offer scholarships to pupils based on academic or sporting aptitude

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

"Abolish" and "ban" sound similar in my books. I'm just trying to establish where you draw the line, you have already mentioned education and healthcare, so what about elderly care?"
ESMI care is health care

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By *erbyDalesCplCouple
over a year ago

Derbyshire

Id say a bigger issue is supporting fanilies at the other end of the spectrum to help them get kids who wont go to school in education."

Certainly a big problem with the state sector is a large number of parents who don't value education. Something the fees of the public schools preclude.

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By *icketysplitsWoman
over a year ago

Way over Yonder, that's where I'm bound

How do you abolish the market in a capitalist country?

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By *icketysplitsWoman
over a year ago

Way over Yonder, that's where I'm bound

Id say a bigger issue is supporting fanilies at the other end of the spectrum to help them get kids who wont go to school in education.

Certainly a big problem with the state sector is a large number of parents who don't value education. Something the fees of the public schools preclude."

I'm not sure that last sentence holds true in every case. I know parents who don't particularly value education but do value their kids being able to board somewhere.

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

I would offer two scenarios on which I would value opinions.

The first is two pensioners bot paid into the system and both need a knee replacement. One has more money in the bank than the other so will choose when where and who will carry out the surgery. The other will wait for until the NHS has the resource to carry out the procedure which in my local NHS hospital is 20 week.

The other scenario is one of an academically bright kid from lets see a working class background. The primary school he or she attends advises the parents that the local fee paying grammar school would best serve the furtherance of that academia but the parents cannot afford the assisted place scheme on offer from the fee paying school.

Are those two scenarios fair and equitable. My opinion is that if the service level exists particularly in health and education then it should apply to all.

If that is radicalism then I am an aging radical!

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By *erbyDalesCplCouple
over a year ago

Derbyshire

" I know parents who don't particularly value education but do value their kids being able to board somewhere.

That's sad

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

"How do you abolish the market in a capitalist country?

"
You don't you regulate the provision and resource to the highest standard.

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

"When do the purges start?? Is that on CBeebies?

If you like...

Public schools, private health care, private pensions, private homeownership all take pressure off of the tax burden...

For now the world is as, it will change, when we move beyond corruption... and that is not something I envisage in my lifetime.

"
I don't think providing excellent education and health care is a political doctrine its common sense and right for a democratic country

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By *erbyDalesCplCouple
over a year ago

Derbyshire

"I would offer two scenarios on which I would value opinions.

Are those two scenarios fair and equitable. My opinion is that if the service level exists particularly in health and education then it should apply to all.

If that is radicalism then I am an aging radical! "

The taxes we pay are only sufficient to pay for the levels of service we receive.

(I say "we pay", actually those who can afford to to use the private sector generally also pay far more in tax)

In the main, the voters don't tend to want to massively increase the taxes they pay in order that public provision matches the best in the private sector.

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By *icketysplitsWoman
over a year ago

Way over Yonder, that's where I'm bound

"How do you abolish the market in a capitalist country?

You don't you regulate the provision and resource to the highest standard."

The regulation is removing the choice and therefore controlling the market.

I do love the fact that Toby Young has had to eat his words recently:

" His regrets are worth revisiting briefly, as they reveal the way in which the experience of setting up a free school has been an education for him. He talks about his naivety in thinking if you get the ethos and the curriculum of a school right, then everything else will fall into place. “I had not realised at the time that’s really just the tip of the iceberg,” he says. “I had not grasped just how many different things you have to get right, just how many details you have to stay across, and just how easily things can go wrong.”

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

And I will give you another scenario...

Someone does a low page job, gets paid tax credits and has social housing, each year they go on holiday, drink and smoke and generally live a happy life

Someone on a middle income; has a mortgage, can barely afford life's essentials, receives no benefits, seldom can afford a holiday. Yet live a generally happy life.

At the age of 70 these two "someone's" need to go into a care home.

The first scenario, that person moves from social housing to a care home and pays no contribution, the government picks that up.

The second scenario, the person that made sacrifices, and now own their own home, have to sell their home as a "contribution" to their care.

Where is the fair in that?

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By *ce WingerMan
over a year ago

P.O. Box DE1 0NQ

Many private schools also offer scholarships to pupils based on academic or sporting aptitude

Yes, I had to pass what was then called 11+ to get from Prep school to Private school. Not sure how it works these days though, this was in 1974.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Why stop at schools? Why not ban everything posh and expensive that rich people choose to spend their money on? Just give everyone the bare minimum instead.

I'm sure they tried something similar to this in the USSR/China and it worked a treat didn't it?

How would you ensure that those paying the fees of school would continue to do so when others access it freely? I don't see how closing fee paying schools gives more money to state schools.

Would you like to extend that view to private health care also?

If you think more should be spent out of our tax budget on education that is one thing. But why would you need to close private/public schools in order to do so. Upping spending on education need not have any relationship to fee paying schools so why draw that link?

And on health care should the nhs start offering cosmetic surgery on the same basis that the private sector does and do that by upping everyone else's taxes too. Or should people be refused a boob job because they want one and you disagree with private health care and this state run ideology doesn't think those extra taxes should cover that.

So when those people then start educating their children overseas to get the level of educational resources that even upped taxes can't provide, or when those ladies choose to have those operations abroad how do you think that affects the country?

Don't we already see the effects in the way people have travelled for health care and then our nhs, in the worst cases pick up the bad jobs or would we not see then our best surgeons leaving their jobs for abroad? Don't we already have an issue with brain drain that this would further encourage?

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

"How do you abolish the market in a capitalist country?

You don't you regulate the provision and resource to the highest standard.

The regulation is removing the choice and therefore controlling the market.

I do love the fact that Toby Young has had to eat his words recently:

He’s sorry he was dismissive about teacher workload and says he has a new-found respect for the profession. “I now realise that teaching is incredibly hard work and not something I could do myself,” he says, adding: “We do expect them to do far too much.”"
The market I am in is controlled (frequently) by the MMC and my industry is not as important than health and education.

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

"Why stop at schools? Why not ban everything posh and expensive that rich people choose to spend their money on? Just give everyone the bare minimum instead.

I'm sure they tried something similar to this in the USSR/China and it worked a treat didn't it?

How would you ensure that those paying the fees of school would continue to do so when others access it freely? I don't see how closing fee paying schools gives more money to state schools.

Would you like to extend that view to private health care also?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"When do the purges start?? Is that on CBeebies?

If you like...

Public schools, private health care, private pensions, private homeownership all take pressure off of the tax burden...

For now the world is as, it will change, when we move beyond corruption... and that is not something I envisage in my lifetime.

I don't think providing excellent education and health care is a political doctrine its common sense and right for a democratic country"

A democratic society is one in which everyone contributes... is it right and fair, that people that have no intention of working should have an equal say in how this country works? Is it fair that tax payers and hard working people should support those that refuse too?

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

"And I will give you another scenario...

Someone does a low page job, gets paid tax credits and has social housing, each year they go on holiday, drink and smoke and generally live a happy life

Someone on a middle income; has a mortgage, can barely afford life's essentials, receives no benefits, seldom can afford a holiday. Yet live a generally happy life.

At the age of 70 these two "someone's" need to go into a care home.

The first scenario, that person moves from social housing to a care home and pays no contribution, the government picks that up.

The second scenario, the person that made sacrifices, and now own their own home, have to sell their home as a "contribution" to their care.

Where is the fair in that?

"
I think you have proved my point?

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By *icketysplitsWoman
over a year ago

Way over Yonder, that's where I'm bound

"And I will give you another scenario...

Someone does a low page job, gets paid tax credits and has social housing, each year they go on holiday, drink and smoke and generally live a happy life

Someone on a middle income; has a mortgage, can barely afford life's essentials, receives no benefits, seldom can afford a holiday. Yet live a generally happy life.

At the age of 70 these two "someone's" need to go into a care home.

The first scenario, that person moves from social housing to a care home and pays no contribution, the government picks that up.

The second scenario, the person that made sacrifices, and now own their own home, have to sell their home as a "contribution" to their care.

Where is the fair in that?

Fair is such a difficult word. I spend quite a lot of time on "fair" and "equal". For both I argue that everyone having the same is neither fair nor equal because we don't all need the same things.

I can give everyone a slice of cake but the coeliac can't eat cake. Is that fair?

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By *inky-MinxWoman
over a year ago

Grantham

"I would offer two scenarios on which I would value opinions.

Are those two scenarios fair and equitable. My opinion is that if the service level exists particularly in health and education then it should apply to all.

If that is radicalism then I am an aging radical! "

First scenario - as an NHS patient you can select where you go. I am currently being treated in a private hospital which does some NHS work.. It is a long way from me but I requested it.

Second scenario - not all state schools are crap. A school with a very bright child should do their best for the child and not just brush it off by saying go find paid education.

I don't think they are good examples myself

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

"When do the purges start?? Is that on CBeebies?

If you like...

Public schools, private health care, private pensions, private homeownership all take pressure off of the tax burden...

For now the world is as, it will change, when we move beyond corruption... and that is not something I envisage in my lifetime.

I don't think providing excellent education and health care is a political doctrine its common sense and right for a democratic country

Is it not fair that wealth (gained by our own hard work), should be used to pay for things that improve OUR lives (the hardworking taxpayers) rather than the people sat in Witherspoon's waiting for the bingo to open? "
So you are advocating the Stalinist purges of the 1930s when people who "did not contribute to the struggle" were shipped off to stalags and left to die, around 10m peasants I read were subjected to that horror.

You are debating in a circle!

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Officer Dibble,

"Are those two scenarios fair and equitable. My opinion is that if the service level exists particularly in health and education then it should apply to all."

There lies your problem, a belief in Utopia. You cannot legislate or coerce by tax or otherwise a fair life to all, it's just not there.

Our two grandchildren go to private school purely due to the accident that they are very bright and get the majority of their fees paid by a bursary. Most days they leave home by 8 a.m. and return at 6.p.m., and also go to school on Saturday, i.e. they do far more hours than the state schools, could that be part of the reason that pupils form fee paying schools do better?

Alec

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By *inky-MinxWoman
over a year ago

Grantham

"I can give everyone a slice of cake but the coeliac can't eat cake. Is that fair?

Ironically enough I find that people go way out to get me cake when they find I can't eat it. Spending more on fake cake than 'normal' cake.

Still could be seen as unfair.

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By *icketysplitsWoman
over a year ago

Way over Yonder, that's where I'm bound

"When do the purges start?? Is that on CBeebies?

If you like...

Public schools, private health care, private pensions, private homeownership all take pressure off of the tax burden...

For now the world is as, it will change, when we move beyond corruption... and that is not something I envisage in my lifetime.

I don't think providing excellent education and health care is a political doctrine its common sense and right for a democratic country

We all pay taxes, even children, if we buy anything with VAT on it. Should we have a flat rate of tax, regardless of income?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Why stop at schools? Why not ban everything posh and expensive that rich people choose to spend their money on? Just give everyone the bare minimum instead.

I'm sure they tried something similar to this in the USSR/China and it worked a treat didn't it?

How would you ensure that those paying the fees of school would continue to do so when others access it freely? I don't see how closing fee paying schools gives more money to state schools.

Would you like to extend that view to private health care also?

Was that the only question you could answer? And I whole heartedly disagree that there is any link as you could never take that funding and plow it into state education and it be anything more than a drop in the ocean. Added to that you would not get that funding as a lot of that money is overseas money.

The facilities provided are possible because there are so few in receipt. In order to roll it out to make a step change in our current state run facilities it wouldn't work.

Regardless of that, if money was the only issue with our education system then surely throwing money at failing schools would improve them and it that is just bollocks.

The education system needs more than just cash and it would needs to be spent more radically than a general smear across them all too.

It's the worst solution I've heard to fixing some educational failings in our country so well done on that front though.

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

"I would offer two scenarios on which I would value opinions.

Are those two scenarios fair and equitable. My opinion is that if the service level exists particularly in health and education then it should apply to all.

If that is radicalism then I am an aging radical!

First scenario - as an NHS patient you can select where you go. I am currently being treated in a private hospital which does some NHS work.. It is a long way from me but I requested it.

Second scenario - not all state schools are crap. A school with a very bright child should do their best for the child and not just brush it off by saying go find paid education.

I don't think they are good examples myself

"
Firstly I did not infer all state schools are crap. As a former governor of the largest comprehensive school in the north of England I can state quite the opposite.

Secondly you are using the NUS provision with a totally different sector. The question is in your instance why is the NHS subcontracting out costing more than providing a local service to you and the system.

The examples are perfectly valid in my view.

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By *inky-MinxWoman
over a year ago

Grantham

Life is unfair - shock horror!

Life is far too complicate for us all the have exactly the same thing, or even want it.

All we can hope for is equality of opportunity and we get that pretty much in this country.

We can all go to school, we can all excel or we can all make our fortunes another way. It's about how we deal with life as individuals and the choices we make.

There are plenty of rich kids who squander their fortunes and plenty of council house kids who go on to make millions.

That's my thoughts on it

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By *inky-MinxWoman
over a year ago

Grantham

"The examples are perfectly valid in my view."

I know, doesn't mean I have to agree.

And I am comparing like for like with your example. You've changed the question now to be about the NHS methods.

Why the NHS does what it does is another topic entirely. it is an overburdened, badly managed giant and it needs plenty fixing but that doesn't stop the fact that people can chose a better hospital if they are not happy.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"When do the purges start?? Is that on CBeebies?

If you like...

Public schools, private health care, private pensions, private homeownership all take pressure off of the tax burden...

For now the world is as, it will change, when we move beyond corruption... and that is not something I envisage in my lifetime.

I don't think providing excellent education and health care is a political doctrine its common sense and right for a democratic country

Is it not fair that wealth (gained by our own hard work), should be used to pay for things that improve OUR lives (the hardworking taxpayers) rather than the people sat in Witherspoon's waiting for the bingo to open? So you are advocating the Stalinist purges of the 1930s when people who "did not contribute to the struggle" were shipped off to stalags and left to die, around 10m peasants I read were subjected to that horror.

You are debating in a circle!"

My "purges" statement was in response to your "let's nationalise everything" statements.... and was facetious

Your "is it on cbeebies" was facetious and I responded "if you like" perhaps I should have included a

in reference to your quote...

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

"Officer Dibble,

"Are those two scenarios fair and equitable. My opinion is that if the service level exists particularly in health and education then it should apply to all."

There lies your problem, a belief in Utopia. You cannot legislate or coerce by tax or otherwise a fair life to all, it's just not there.

Alec"

Alec I don't seek utopia just a fair and equitable social response to health and education. If my bins are emptied by whatawaste or my roads repaired by McAlpine so be it. I don't even mind that my gas is supplied by the French but on health and education I expect the very best.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Why stop at schools? Why not ban everything posh and expensive that rich people choose to spend their money on? Just give everyone the bare minimum instead.

I'm sure they tried something similar to this in the USSR/China and it worked a treat didn't it?

Mr ddc"

Yes I would agree to that as to many over paid people in this country what man needs 250,000 a year to live

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

"When do the purges start?? Is that on CBeebies?

If you like...

Public schools, private health care, private pensions, private homeownership all take pressure off of the tax burden...

For now the world is as, it will change, when we move beyond corruption... and that is not something I envisage in my lifetime.

I don't think providing excellent education and health care is a political doctrine its common sense and right for a democratic country

Is it not fair that wealth (gained by our own hard work), should be used to pay for things that improve OUR lives (the hardworking taxpayers) rather than the people sat in Witherspoon's waiting for the bingo to open? So you are advocating the Stalinist purges of the 1930s when people who "did not contribute to the struggle" were shipped off to stalags and left to die, around 10m peasants I read were subjected to that horror.

You are debating in a circle!

My "purges" statement was in response to your "let's nationalise everything" statements.... and was facetious

Your "is it on cbeebies" was facetious and I responded "if you like" perhaps I should have included a

in reference to your quote...

I know the full history of the "kulaks" and purges...and I know that these people, the "kulaks" were land owners (farmers) and the supposed rich, that the utopian's (the have-nots) felt aggrieved against... so please....peasants they became... but that wasn't how they started."
Two things, point me to the Lets Nationalise everything comment. Secondly you need to read Stalin biography and his response to those who couldn't or wouldn't work.

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By *atcoupleCouple
over a year ago

Suffolk - East Anglia

"Should fee paying schools be abolished in favour of a fully state funded alternative?

What people choose to spend their money on is their business surely?

If people choose to pay for a better education for their kids good for them, I'd do the same "

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By *erbyDalesCplCouple
over a year ago

Derbyshire

" Fair is such a difficult word. I spend quite a lot of time on "fair" and "equal". For both I argue that everyone having the same is neither fair nor equal because we don't all need the same things.

I can give everyone a slice of cake but the coeliac can't eat cake. Is that fair?

I actually quite like the socialist saying "From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs". And for one brief moment in history, such a system existed, any people flocked from around the world to fight to defend it. Surgeons, nurses, generals and privates were all paid the same wage, and all worked to the best of their ability to support the state they believed in.

"Homage to Catalonia" by George Orwell details the failure of the system. (Or, for an abridged version, "Animal Farm")

Sadly I just don't think human beings are cut out for socialism.

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By *icketysplitsWoman
over a year ago

Way over Yonder, that's where I'm bound

"Officer Dibble,

"Are those two scenarios fair and equitable. My opinion is that if the service level exists particularly in health and education then it should apply to all."

There lies your problem, a belief in Utopia. You cannot legislate or coerce by tax or otherwise a fair life to all, it's just not there.

Alec"

Someone very close to me went to one of the old Public Schools. His peers are high flyers and use the old boy's network to great effect. He and his peers did well at the exams because there was not much else to do. Time was set aside for doing homework and every hour had some activity ascribed to it.

Yet he feels I had the better education in the state system. I learned more about many more things than he did. We both know that his educational credentials will always open more doors than mine ever could and that is where the unfairness lies.

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By *iamondjoeMan
over a year ago

Glastonbury

"Life is unfair - shock horror!

Life is far too complicate for us all the have exactly the same thing, or even want it.

All we can hope for is equality of opportunity and we get that pretty much in this country.

We can all go to school, we can all excel or we can all make our fortunes another way. It's about how we deal with life as individuals and the choices we make.

There are plenty of rich kids who squander their fortunes and plenty of council house kids who go on to make millions.

That's my thoughts on it

Sadly not.

If you're born poor you're overwhelming likely to remain so. If you're born rich, it's hard to fuck up.

The system is fundamentally unequal, yay unto the Middle Ages

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By *icketysplitsWoman
over a year ago

Way over Yonder, that's where I'm bound

" Fair is such a difficult word. I spend quite a lot of time on "fair" and "equal". For both I argue that everyone having the same is neither fair nor equal because we don't all need the same things.

I can give everyone a slice of cake but the coeliac can't eat cake. Is that fair?

"Homage to Catalonia" by George Orwell details the failure of the system. (Or, for an abridged version, "Animal Farm")

Sadly I just don't think human beings are cut out for socialism.

I think socialism can be a struggle but it's one I am happy to engage in.

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

" Fair is such a difficult word. I spend quite a lot of time on "fair" and "equal". For both I argue that everyone having the same is neither fair nor equal because we don't all need the same things.

I can give everyone a slice of cake but the coeliac can't eat cake. Is that fair?

"Homage to Catalonia" by George Orwell details the failure of the system. (Or, for an abridged version, "Animal Farm")

Sadly I just don't think human beings are cut out for socialism.

"
What is with folk? I am not advocating any isim or ist I am trying to say that given the fact that health and education are right up there in the priorities of this country we have a two tier system in place. I merely saying lets resource both of those sectors to the excellence that can be achieved. You seem to be hung up on the isim trail?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"When do the purges start?? Is that on CBeebies?

I know the full history of the "kulaks" and purges...and I know that these people, the "kulaks" were land owners (farmers) and the supposed rich, that the utopian's (the have-nots) felt aggrieved against... so please....peasants they became... but that wasn't how they started.Two things, point me to the Lets Nationalise everything comment. Secondly you need to read Stalin biography and his response to those who couldn't or wouldn't work."

Firstly... (oh joy) your entire post are the abolishing of both private schools and private health care.....but you are right at no point have you said "nationalise everything" I apologise.

Secondly I don't "need" to read anything... the peasants you referred too were once the wealthy which tells me YOU may need to read something.

Regardless; the wealthy in this society contribute far more money "in real terms" to the state pot... the fact that this money is mismanaged by the civil service is a fault of that structure... increasing the pot size and then the burden on that pot (by abolishing private education/health) will not stop that mismanagement...

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By *verysmileMan
over a year ago

Canterbury

To stop people spending money in any private sector enterprise would be wrong. As long as the private sector does not draw upon the public purse and complies with the law, then why interfere?

Isn't this the politics of envy?

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By *inky-MinxWoman
over a year ago

Grantham

"Life is unfair - shock horror!

Life is far too complicate for us all the have exactly the same thing, or even want it.

All we can hope for is equality of opportunity and we get that pretty much in this country.

We can all go to school, we can all excel or we can all make our fortunes another way. It's about how we deal with life as individuals and the choices we make.

There are plenty of rich kids who squander their fortunes and plenty of council house kids who go on to make millions.

That's my thoughts on it

Sadly not.

If you're born poor you're overwhelming likely to remain so. If you're born rich, it's hard to fuck up.

The system is fundamentally unequal, yay unto the Middle Ages

Statistics will prove you right, but it is possible to break the mold of our birth. Most won't though.

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By *inky-MinxWoman
over a year ago

Grantham

"To stop people spending money in any private sector enterprise would be wrong. As long as the private sector does not draw upon the public purse and complies with the law, then why interfere?

Isn't this the politics of envy?"

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By *icketysplitsWoman
over a year ago

Way over Yonder, that's where I'm bound

" Fair is such a difficult word. I spend quite a lot of time on "fair" and "equal". For both I argue that everyone having the same is neither fair nor equal because we don't all need the same things.

I can give everyone a slice of cake but the coeliac can't eat cake. Is that fair?

"Homage to Catalonia" by George Orwell details the failure of the system. (Or, for an abridged version, "Animal Farm")

Sadly I just don't think human beings are cut out for socialism.

What is with folk? I am not advocating any isim or ist I am trying to say that given the fact that health and education are right up there in the priorities of this country we have a two tier system in place. I merely saying lets resource both of those sectors to the excellence that can be achieved. You seem to be hung up on the isim trail?"

You are setting out an ism by advocating that the way to deal with the two tier system is to remove one of the tiers completely.

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By *iamondjoeMan
over a year ago

Glastonbury

"Life is unfair - shock horror!

Life is far too complicate for us all the have exactly the same thing, or even want it.

All we can hope for is equality of opportunity and we get that pretty much in this country.

We can all go to school, we can all excel or we can all make our fortunes another way. It's about how we deal with life as individuals and the choices we make.

There are plenty of rich kids who squander their fortunes and plenty of council house kids who go on to make millions.

That's my thoughts on it

Sadly not.

If you're born poor you're overwhelming likely to remain so. If you're born rich, it's hard to fuck up.

The system is fundamentally unequal, yay unto the Middle Ages

Statistics will prove you right, but it is possible to break the mold of our birth. Most won't though."

Lol - are they just being lazy?

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

" Fair is such a difficult word. I spend quite a lot of time on "fair" and "equal". For both I argue that everyone having the same is neither fair nor equal because we don't all need the same things.

I can give everyone a slice of cake but the coeliac can't eat cake. Is that fair?

"Homage to Catalonia" by George Orwell details the failure of the system. (Or, for an abridged version, "Animal Farm")

Sadly I just don't think human beings are cut out for socialism.

"
Just one other point on this post. I have never said and would not say that people should not be rewarded for effort and endeavour quite the opposite as a kid from a council estate I have done all right. However if you applied true market force to the pay between a brain surgeon and a dustman then the supply of labour would fall in favour of the dustman as you use that service far more than you would use a brain surgeon; one would hope?

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

" Fair is such a difficult word. I spend quite a lot of time on "fair" and "equal". For both I argue that everyone having the same is neither fair nor equal because we don't all need the same things.

I can give everyone a slice of cake but the coeliac can't eat cake. Is that fair?

"Homage to Catalonia" by George Orwell details the failure of the system. (Or, for an abridged version, "Animal Farm")

Sadly I just don't think human beings are cut out for socialism.

You are setting out an ism by advocating that the way to deal with the two tier system is to remove one of the tiers completely.

"
What isim would that be? Capitalism perhaps as that system is regulated by government and trading bodies!

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

If you abolished our private schools - a percentage of those children would just go abroad to school instead.

Private school children often do well as the class numbers are so much smaller. Some parents use them just for primary school age - get them through the 11+ which is heavily concentrated on by some private schools. Then get their children into fantastic grammar schools which are free.

Do private schools take funding out of the state education system? I don't think they do. It's a shame though that state educated children can't have the same small class numbers.

Sarah

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By *iss_tressWoman
over a year ago

London

"Should fee paying schools be abolished in favour of a fully state funded alternative?

What people choose to spend their money on is their business surely?

If people choose to pay for a better education for their kids good for them, I'd do the same "

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By *icketysplitsWoman
over a year ago

Way over Yonder, that's where I'm bound

" Fair is such a difficult word. I spend quite a lot of time on "fair" and "equal". For both I argue that everyone having the same is neither fair nor equal because we don't all need the same things.

I can give everyone a slice of cake but the coeliac can't eat cake. Is that fair?

"Homage to Catalonia" by George Orwell details the failure of the system. (Or, for an abridged version, "Animal Farm")

Sadly I just don't think human beings are cut out for socialism.

Just one other point on this post. I have never said and would not say that people should not be rewarded for effort and endeavour quite the opposite as a kid from a council estate I have done all right. However if you applied true market force to the pay between a brain surgeon and a dustman then the supply of labour would fall in favour of the dustman as you use that service far more than you would use a brain surgeon; one would hope?"

There you are invoking another ism. Do we place the same monetary value on roles?

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

"To stop people spending money in any private sector enterprise would be wrong. As long as the private sector does not draw upon the public purse and complies with the law, then why interfere?

Isn't this the politics of envy?

"
Its the politics of fairness and equitability

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

" Fair is such a difficult word. I spend quite a lot of time on "fair" and "equal". For both I argue that everyone having the same is neither fair nor equal because we don't all need the same things.

I can give everyone a slice of cake but the coeliac can't eat cake. Is that fair?

"Homage to Catalonia" by George Orwell details the failure of the system. (Or, for an abridged version, "Animal Farm")

Sadly I just don't think human beings are cut out for socialism.

There you are invoking another ism. Do we place the same monetary value on roles? "
Of course we do? That is the essence of Capitalism is it not? Why does wayne Rooney earn in a week what an infantry solider earns in a life time? The soider is undertaking a far more important role than Wazza is he or she not?

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

*solider

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By *erbyDalesCplCouple
over a year ago

Derbyshire

Sadly not.

If you're born poor you're overwhelming likely to remain so. If you're born rich, it's hard to fuck up.

The system is fundamentally unequal, yay unto the Middle Ages

That is so not true.

My mother was sent to the Glasgow workhouse when she became an orphan. There she was trained to go "into service" since only the destitute were willing to work for the wages the middle classes were willing to pay.

She only escaped by joining up when war broke out.

My grandfather worked two very menial jobs in order to pay the uniform costs etc that my dad required after winning a place at the local grammer. Hard work and lateral thinking enabled him to rejoin the army as an officer thereby securing me a place at prep school under the British Forces education policy. Even then my place at public school relied on me winning a full academic scholarship. I was the first person ever in our family to go to university, and as a result am now a Chartered engineer.

Not bad for two generations.

What I object to is those who benefited from the system, now trying to pull up the drawbridge.

So the answer is not to abolish public schools, but to force them to offer more scholarships to disadvantaged children.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"And I will give you another scenario...

Someone does a low page job, gets paid tax credits and has social housing, each year they go on holiday, drink and smoke and generally live a happy life

Someone on a middle income; has a mortgage, can barely afford life's essentials, receives no benefits, seldom can afford a holiday. Yet live a generally happy life.

At the age of 70 these two "someone's" need to go into a care home.

The first scenario, that person moves from social housing to a care home and pays no contribution, the government picks that up.

The second scenario, the person that made sacrifices, and now own their own home, have to sell their home as a "contribution" to their care.

Where is the fair in that?

I want to shake your hand.

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

Sadly not.

If you're born poor you're overwhelming likely to remain so. If you're born rich, it's hard to fuck up.

The system is fundamentally unequal, yay unto the Middle Ages

That is so not true.

She only escaped by joining up when war broke out.

Not bad for two generations.

What I object to is those who benefited from the system, now trying to pull up the drawbridge.

So the answer is not to abolish public schools, but to force them to offer more scholarships to disadvantaged children."
Charity? Is that a way to provide education? Next you will saying we need a National Health Lottery............Jesus we have!

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I grew up on a rough council estate in the south east. I left school without a single qualification. I worked from the age of 16. I now have a degree, a handful of PGDIPs (sounds painful); and I am working towards a second degree...

What THIS country gives is opportunity and I have worked in many that don't (including most of the republics of the FSU).

But I had to take those opportunities, I had to find them and work damn hard to make the most of them. Should we reduce the entire country to one level and spoon feed society countless opportunities that many do not wish to take because they require sacrifice and hard work...

For every child in a public school there are parents making sacrifices...

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

What I object to is those who benefited from the system, now trying to pull up the drawbridge.

So the answer is not to abolish public schools, but to force them to offer more scholarships to disadvantaged children."

Definitely - many parents aren't aware of the scholarships that are available now. That needs more publicising too.

Sarah

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By *erbyDalesCplCouple
over a year ago

Derbyshire

[Removed by poster at 18/05/16 22:11:47]

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

Sadly not.

If you're born poor you're overwhelming likely to remain so. If you're born rich, it's hard to fuck up.

The system is fundamentally unequal, yay unto the Middle Ages

That is so not true.

She only escaped by joining up when war broke out.

Not bad for two generations.

What I object to is those who benefited from the system, now trying to pull up the drawbridge.

So the answer is not to abolish public schools, but to force them to offer more scholarships to disadvantaged children."
We all have stories of good coming from adversity mine is I left school with nowt by way of education but I grafted and like you obtained Chartered status via evening classes and correspondence study paid for by me whilst working and bringing up a family. As for the drawbridge I want to keep it down so everyone has a chance of getting in to the castle. Education is a cornerstone of our society leave it to chance, charity and collusion then its at our peril.

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By *erbyDalesCplCouple
over a year ago

Derbyshire

"...Charity? Is that a way to provide education?"

Is it too much to ask? A little charity from a registered charity....?

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

"[Removed by poster at 18/05/16 22:11:47]"
I really do not know what to say to that?

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By *icketysplitsWoman
over a year ago

Way over Yonder, that's where I'm bound

"[Removed by poster at 18/05/16 22:11:47]"

It is how they are supposedly keeping their charitable status.

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

"I grew up on a rough council estate in the south east. I left school without a single qualification. I worked from the age of 16. I now have a degree, a handful of PGDIPs (sounds painful); and I am working towards a second degree...

What THIS country gives is opportunity and I have worked in many that don't (including most of the republics of the FSU).

For every child in a public school there are parents making sacrifices..."
But we are sacrificing the education of countless pupils in the system by not providing adequate resources. I don't see Eton or Harrow having bring and buy sales to raise funds for extra curricular activities!

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By *erbyDalesCplCouple
over a year ago

Derbyshire

"Education is a cornerstone of our society leave it to chance, charity and collusion then its at our peril."

But we still come back to the reality that the voter will not vote to increase the taxes they pay in order to provide the level of public sector provision you espouse.

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

"...Charity? Is that a way to provide education?

Is it too much to ask? A little charity from a registered charity....?"
So its a tax dodge?

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By *icketysplitsWoman
over a year ago

Way over Yonder, that's where I'm bound

What THIS country gives is opportunity and I have worked in many that don't (including most of the republics of the FSU).

For every child in a public school there are parents making sacrifices... But we are sacrificing the education of countless pupils in the system by not providing adequate resources. I don't see Eton or Harrow having bring and buy sales to raise funds for extra curricular activities!"

But they do exactly that, just on a grander scale. They just call it an auction.

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By *erbyDalesCplCouple
over a year ago

Derbyshire

"[Removed by poster at 18/05/16 22:11:47]I really do not know what to say to that?"

I corrected a typo, it's repeated a bit later - I wasn't fast enough 'cos I'm also watching the film

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

What THIS country gives is opportunity and I have worked in many that don't (including most of the republics of the FSU).

Then advocate for more tax to be spent on education.. not abolishing schools which are successful...

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By *nleashedCrakenMan
over a year ago

Widnes

Then improve the provision first and you wont have to abolish the private sector, it will simply disappear on its own.

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

"Education is a cornerstone of our society leave it to chance, charity and collusion then its at our peril.

But we still come back to the reality that the voter will not vote to increase the taxes they pay in order to provide the level of public sector provision you espouse.

"
Yes that is correct but I would pay more in taxes if required to so. Now I am going all socialist on you; in the words of Tony Benn "if we can bomb people we can feed and educate them"

There I have come out on FAB as being a sensiblist

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Officer Dibble,

"Are those two scenarios fair and equitable. My opinion is that if the service level exists particularly in health and education then it should apply to all."

There lies your problem, a belief in Utopia. You cannot legislate or coerce by tax or otherwise a fair life to all, it's just not there.

Alec

The amount of taxes in this country doesn't cover "the very best". That's why many of us choose to pay for private healthcare, private pensions, and even private education.

If everyone wants to pay more taxes I'm cool with that. But EVERYONE has to pay more taxes. Not just the wealthy.

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By *erbyDalesCplCouple
over a year ago

Derbyshire

"[Is it too much to ask? A little charity from a registered charity....?

It is how they are supposedly keeping their charitable status.

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By *inky-MinxWoman
over a year ago

Grantham

"Life is unfair - shock horror!

Lol - are they just being lazy?"

No, see above

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

What THIS country gives is opportunity and I have worked in many that don't (including most of the republics of the FSU).

Then advocate for more tax to be spent on education.. not abolishing schools which are successful..."
I did at 8 34pm

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"For every child in a public school there are parents making sacrifices... But we are sacrificing the education of countless pupils in the system by not providing adequate resources. I don't see Eton or Harrow having bring and buy sales to raise funds for extra curricular activities!"

In a round about way though that's not all bad though- learning to raise funds. It's not handed on a plate and maybe that's unfair - but school pupils will really pull together to raise money for something they are passionate about.

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By *inky-MinxWoman
over a year ago

Grantham

What THIS country gives is opportunity and I have worked in many that don't (including most of the republics of the FSU).

For every child in a public school there are parents making sacrifices..."

You're just what I was talking about

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

"Officer Dibble,

"Are those two scenarios fair and equitable. My opinion is that if the service level exists particularly in health and education then it should apply to all."

There lies your problem, a belief in Utopia. You cannot legislate or coerce by tax or otherwise a fair life to all, it's just not there.

Alec

The amount of taxes in this country doesn't cover "the very best". That's why many of us choose to pay for private healthcare, private pensions, and even private education.

If everyone wants to pay more taxes I'm cool with that. But EVERYONE has to pay more taxes. Not just the wealthy."
Yep no issue with that at all

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

" Fair is such a difficult word. I spend quite a lot of time on "fair" and "equal". For both I argue that everyone having the same is neither fair nor equal because we don't all need the same things.

I can give everyone a slice of cake but the coeliac can't eat cake. Is that fair?

"Homage to Catalonia" by George Orwell details the failure of the system. (Or, for an abridged version, "Animal Farm")

Sadly I just don't think human beings are cut out for socialism.

The difference is that I could take my own rubbish to the tip if I needed to. The bin person is a luxury service. But I could never operate on my own brain. That is an essential for life.

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

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By *nleashedCrakenMan
over a year ago

Widnes

"I would offer two scenarios on which I would value opinions.

Are those two scenarios fair and equitable. My opinion is that if the service level exists particularly in health and education then it should apply to all.

If that is radicalism then I am an aging radical! "

We did use to have a system in education that roughly did that. Remember Grammar Schools, fully and often exclusively paid for by the state. In the 60's, 70's and 80's most of the government were made up of people who had been to such schools.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I don't know any pupils here that lack text books and I know a few at different schools. State schools. Which schools are doing bring and buy sales for books? Text books?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"If that is radicalism then I am an aging radical! "

Radical but not totally practicle in the case of the knee surgery if pensioner A didn't pay to have it done, but joined pensioner B in the queue, they would both have to wait 25 weeks as there are more people in the queue.

In the education system the problem is mainly the levelling of academia, it means child A who has driven parents who check homework and continue education at home can't get educated as his class is disrupted by child B who never does homework and has parents who do not support the process.

Nirvana needs all people to work towards it, not some who exceed and most who complain they haven't got it.

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By *ary_ArgyllMan
over a year ago

Argyll

Many private schools also offer scholarships to pupils based on academic or sporting aptitude

Yes they do offer some scholarships but not that many, I still think they tend to create a two tier society - it is really all about the networking which goes on at the top public schools so not surprising half the cabinet went to Eton etc.

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

" Fair is such a difficult word. I spend quite a lot of time on "fair" and "equal". For both I argue that everyone having the same is neither fair nor equal because we don't all need the same things.

I can give everyone a slice of cake but the coeliac can't eat cake. Is that fair?

"Homage to Catalonia" by George Orwell details the failure of the system. (Or, for an abridged version, "Animal Farm")

Sadly I just don't think human beings are cut out for socialism.

The difference is that I could take my own rubbish to the tip if I needed to. The bin person is a luxury service. But I could never operate on my own brain. That is an essential for life."
A luxury service for which they are paid a luxury wage?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Anyway my answer stands OP. No. I would not like public schools abolished; even though I have never benefitted from that system.

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By *erbyDalesCplCouple
over a year ago

Derbyshire

"...own rubbish to the tip if I needed to. The bin person is a luxury service. But I could never operate on my own brain. That is an essential for life."

A luxury service for which they are paid a luxury wage?"

Interestingly binmen are paid the wage sufficient to ensure they are employed in sufficient numbers.

The brain surgeon is paid so much that he can choose to opt out of the "From each according to his ability" bit, and go and play golf instead.

How a Labour government ever came up with that system is beyond me.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

" Fair is such a difficult word. I spend quite a lot of time on "fair" and "equal". For both I argue that everyone having the same is neither fair nor equal because we don't all need the same things.

I can give everyone a slice of cake but the coeliac can't eat cake. Is that fair?

"Homage to Catalonia" by George Orwell details the failure of the system. (Or, for an abridged version, "Animal Farm")

Sadly I just don't think human beings are cut out for socialism.

What a load of crap. you really need to give your head a shake. NHS every year faces cuts as well as education they get ruduced funding the government try to brain wash you they give more. but it's less each year just like the armed forces. police the services our country needs are the ones that suffer each year.

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

"...own rubbish to the tip if I needed to. The bin person is a luxury service. But I could never operate on my own brain. That is an essential for life."

A luxury service for which they are paid a luxury wage?

Interestingly binmen are paid the wage sufficient to ensure they are employed in sufficient numbers.

The brain surgeon is paid so much that he can choose to opt out of the "From each according to his ability" bit, and go and play golf instead.

How a Labour government ever came up with that system is beyond me.

"
What system?

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

" Fair is such a difficult word. I spend quite a lot of time on "fair" and "equal". For both I argue that everyone having the same is neither fair nor equal because we don't all need the same things.

I can give everyone a slice of cake but the coeliac can't eat cake. Is that fair?

"Homage to Catalonia" by George Orwell details the failure of the system. (Or, for an abridged version, "Animal Farm")

Sadly I just don't think human beings are cut out for socialism.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Anyway my answer stands OP. No. I would not like public schools abolished; even though I have never benefitted from that system.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

If I was in the lifestyle where I could have sent my son to public school I would have done it.

At least you know that they don't put up with fuckwits disrupting classes spooking it for the rest of the class that actually want to learn and get on.

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By *dinMan
over a year ago

Birmingham

"Anyway my answer stands OP. No. I would not like public schools abolished; even though I have never benefitted from that system.

absolutely! unfortunately there are too few people in this country with this attitude, everyone wants something for nothing because it is their 'right'.

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

"Anyway my answer stands OP. No. I would not like public schools abolished; even though I have never benefitted from that system.

Because I believe in choice, hard work, sacrifice and commitment (except relationships ((shudders))). I believe if you want something in this life you shouldn't expect it to land at your feet, if you want the best you work hard, make sacrifices and put up with the hard times because eventually your hard work pays off. I wasn't "lucky" I worked damn hard."
My position remains steadfast too in so far as I truly believe that education (and health as the debate has widened) should be delivered to the best possible standards regardless of the ability to pay. As I have tried to explain I do not want to see the introduction of a planned economy with overloaded regulation but a level playing field solution to service delivery is not an unreasonable stance to take. I would happily contribute additional funding via taxation to bring about that level playing field. As for being lucky I have always found the harder I work the luckier I get!

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By *dinMan
over a year ago

Birmingham

"Anyway my answer stands OP. No. I would not like public schools abolished; even though I have never benefitted from that system.

Because I believe in choice, hard work, sacrifice and commitment (except relationships ((shudders))). I believe if you want something in this life you shouldn't expect it to land at your feet, if you want the best you work hard, make sacrifices and put up with the hard times because eventually your hard work pays off. I wasn't "lucky" I worked damn hard. My position remains steadfast too in so far as I truly believe that education (and health as the debate has widened) should be delivered to the best possible standards regardless of the ability to pay. As I have tried to explain I do not want to see the introduction of a planned economy with overloaded regulation but a level playing field solution to service delivery is not an unreasonable stance to take. I would happily contribute additional funding via taxation to bring about that level playing field. As for being lucky I have always found the harder I work the luckier I get!"

the idea that more money = better service/quality is fundamentally flawed I am afraid.

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By *verysmileMan
over a year ago

Canterbury

"To stop people spending money in any private sector enterprise would be wrong. As long as the private sector does not draw upon the public purse and complies with the law, then why interfere?

Isn't this the politics of envy?

Its the politics of fairness and equitability "

So what you are saying is that you would stop people spending their money in the way that they would choose. Perhaps we should all live in the same sized house, drive the same type of car, wear the same clothes, join the same clubs and enjoy the same pursuits as this would then provide everyone with an equality of life and opportunity?

Isn't this a little bit of John Smith?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I wouldn't ban them but I wouldn't send any children to a fee paying school either.

I believe there's more to education than what exams someone gets.

The ability to mix with people from a range of backgrounds being one of them.

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

"Anyway my answer stands OP. No. I would not like public schools abolished; even though I have never benefitted from that system.

Because I believe in choice, hard work, sacrifice and commitment (except relationships ((shudders))). I believe if you want something in this life you shouldn't expect it to land at your feet, if you want the best you work hard, make sacrifices and put up with the hard times because eventually your hard work pays off. I wasn't "lucky" I worked damn hard. My position remains steadfast too in so far as I truly believe that education (and health as the debate has widened) should be delivered to the best possible standards regardless of the ability to pay. As I have tried to explain I do not want to see the introduction of a planned economy with overloaded regulation but a level playing field solution to service delivery is not an unreasonable stance to take. I would happily contribute additional funding via taxation to bring about that level playing field. As for being lucky I have always found the harder I work the luckier I get!

the idea that more money = better service/quality is fundamentally flawed I am afraid. "
On what basis do you base that statement? its clear to me that mainstream education in this country is underfunded particularly when you look at enhanced requirements provision.

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

"To stop people spending money in any private sector enterprise would be wrong. As long as the private sector does not draw upon the public purse and complies with the law, then why interfere?

Isn't this the politics of envy?

Its the politics of fairness and equitability

Isn't this a little bit of John Smith?

"
You need to read the detail above!

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"the idea that more money = better service/quality is fundamentally flawed I am afraid.

On what basis do you base that statement? its clear to me that mainstream education in this country is underfunded particularly when you look at enhanced requirements provision."

On the basis that humans are not all equal, attempting to force equality in education simply drags the most able, and the moderately able down. It seems the least able are firmly rooted, and clinging onto the least willing.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Anyway my answer stands OP. No. I would not like public schools abolished; even though I have never benefitted from that system.

Because I believe in choice, hard work, sacrifice and commitment (except relationships ((shudders))). I believe if you want something in this life you shouldn't expect it to land at your feet, if you want the best you work hard, make sacrifices and put up with the hard times because eventually your hard work pays off. I wasn't "lucky" I worked damn hard. My position remains steadfast too in so far as I truly believe that education (and health as the debate has widened) should be delivered to the best possible standards regardless of the ability to pay. As I have tried to explain I do not want to see the introduction of a planned economy with overloaded regulation but a level playing field solution to service delivery is not an unreasonable stance to take. I would happily contribute additional funding via taxation to bring about that level playing field. As for being lucky I have always found the harder I work the luckier I get!

the idea that more money = better service/quality is fundamentally flawed I am afraid. "

More money = More choice... that's life... you are right to say that choosing how and where to spend that money is fraught with challenges and also right to say that spending more doesn't necessarily mean getting more.

However a glance of academic attainment records of private schools (in the main); would point towards a better system.

Where I live successive governments close schools in rural areas, whilst insisting that more and more houses are built on the periphery of those rural communities; meaning that the new children have to be bussed into larger towns and squashed into cramped schools with xx too many for the class.

The "having choice" is not broken; the state system is, and it's not the fault of the teachers, but the structures and systems that the education authority and housing authorities have contrived to create. None of this would be solved if we stopped public schooling; in fact it would just get worse; regardless of additional taxes.

The governance of this country is always "short-term", what is popular with voters today to ensure continuation of power; no government would raise taxes exponentially, should public schools be abolished; because they wouldn't stay in power. So the rationale behind abolishing them "it would improve standards across the board" is nonsensical.

Sorry

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By *ophieslutTV/TS
over a year ago

Central

They should lose us tax payers subsidising them as charities.

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

"the idea that more money = better service/quality is fundamentally flawed I am afraid.

On what basis do you base that statement? its clear to me that mainstream education in this country is underfunded particularly when you look at enhanced requirements provision.

"
Wow that is a very telling statement on your perception of society. I think totally the opposite in so far as an inclusive approach to education promotes a framework where all can succeed to their ability level. Your view of the world is completely outdated and has its roots in the past, thankfully.

The comprehensive school at which I was privileged to be a governor had a progressive policy on SEN and those kids, who were undoubtly less academic than others worked tirelessly in some cases, to master the fundamentals of literacy and numeracy aided and abated by 6th form pupils. In my view that is what education is about not paying £33k a year to a bogus charitable organisation which has its orgins in the middle ages.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

It seems to me that ypu think teachers in state schools are not as good as those teaching at private schools. Also doctors and nurses in the nhs. Is that a fair assumption?

I believe they are over worked and underpaid but i dont think thats the fault of private schools or private healthcare. The money people are willing to spend on that comes back into the economy in the end. So surely it would be better to fight for their rights rather than looking to blame someone who has nothing to do with the current standards in the public sector?

Ask yourself why the public arent receiving the same service. Is it becausr of private services? Or is it because the goverment has been cutting funding to the nhs, police, education etc for the last 6 to 8 years and the sinply cannot privide thr same service without the money for staff, medicine and other resources.

So maybe you should look at thr politics involved and makesure you research and use your right to vote at every opportunity?

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

"Anyway my answer stands OP. No. I would not like public schools abolished; even though I have never benefitted from that system.

Because I believe in choice, hard work, sacrifice and commitment (except relationships ((shudders))). I believe if you want something in this life you shouldn't expect it to land at your feet, if you want the best you work hard, make sacrifices and put up with the hard times because eventually your hard work pays off. I wasn't "lucky" I worked damn hard. My position remains steadfast too in so far as I truly believe that education (and health as the debate has widened) should be delivered to the best possible standards regardless of the ability to pay. As I have tried to explain I do not want to see the introduction of a planned economy with overloaded regulation but a level playing field solution to service delivery is not an unreasonable stance to take. I would happily contribute additional funding via taxation to bring about that level playing field. As for being lucky I have always found the harder I work the luckier I get!

the idea that more money = better service/quality is fundamentally flawed I am afraid.

However a glance of academic attainment records of private schools (in the main); would point towards a better system.

Sorry"
No need to apologise that is your view and I respect it but fundamentally disagree with you on the way in which education should be procured. I have first hand experience of the comprehensive system working even with oversized classes and the social problems that the catchment area presented.

With effort from most of the parents and staff we more than matched the local fee paying schools in academic and sporting achievements. Just a fact!

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"It seems to me that ypu think teachers in state schools are not as good as those teaching at private schools. Also doctors and nurses in the nhs. Is that a fair assumption?

So maybe you should look at thr politics involved and makesure you research and use your right to vote at every opportunity?"

Pretty much nailed it. The under investment in key services is not due to a growth in private services; it's due to a reduction in "real" terms of capital to the public services; greater red-tape and "management" (for want of a better word) Successive governments have sacrificed the non-voting youth for the voting population, to sell policies that help them retain power; increasing state support for voters, rather than improving the services that lead people to need state support....

I feel sorry for our youth and the education they receive, through a national curriculum, that by all accounts, amounts to a :tick-box" exercise and does not lead to innovation, independent and critical thinking and an over reliance on the state.

Change the system and structure, don't abolish its supports.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Anyway my answer stands OP. No. I would not like public schools abolished; even though I have never benefitted from that system.

Because I believe in choice, hard work, sacrifice and commitment (except relationships ((shudders))). I believe if you want something in this life you shouldn't expect it to land at your feet, if you want the best you work hard, make sacrifices and put up with the hard times because eventually your hard work pays off. I wasn't "lucky" I worked damn hard. My position remains steadfast too in so far as I truly believe that education (and health as the debate has widened) should be delivered to the best possible standards regardless of the ability to pay. As I have tried to explain I do not want to see the introduction of a planned economy with overloaded regulation but a level playing field solution to service delivery is not an unreasonable stance to take. I would happily contribute additional funding via taxation to bring about that level playing field. As for being lucky I have always found the harder I work the luckier I get!

the idea that more money = better service/quality is fundamentally flawed I am afraid.

However a glance of academic attainment records of private schools (in the main); would point towards a better system.

SorryNo need to apologise that is your view and I respect it but fundamentally disagree with you on the way in which education should be procured. I have first hand experience of the comprehensive system working even with oversized classes and the social problems that the catchment area presented.

With effort from most of the parents and staff we more than matched the local fee paying schools in academic and sporting achievements. Just a fact!"

So you are saying that state schools are on a par with public schools in academic achievement; so why are you arguing for the abolition of public schools to better fund schools that are already achieving so much? Your argument no longer makes sense and demonstrates envy rather than social justice.

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

"It seems to me that ypu think teachers in state schools are not as good as those teaching at private schools. Also doctors and nurses in the nhs. Is that a fair assumption?

So maybe you should look at thr politics involved and makesure you research and use your right to vote at every opportunity?"

You assume incorrectly and if you took the time to read my posts you will see that I have participated in the educational system and value the work of teachers and support staff.

My point ( again) is that if state schools were funded to the level of the private sector then that would provide a level playing field and that education would be delivered to that standard regardless of the ability to pay.

If you believe the government you would hear that education and health budgets have been ring fenced but in reality the cuts have been applied in ways that are manipulative. SENCo posts not being renewed,8 months wait to see to see an EdPyshc and a £2b cut in the schools building programme.

I doubt if Eton has a SENco but give the establishment has produced Boris Johnson I suspect The educational psychologist was rather busy.

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By *rightonsteveMan
over a year ago

Brighton - even Hove!

Boris Johnson is highly intelligent. I don't think David Cameron is though. What I don't agree with is nepotism, in which public school educated people in government give jobs to those who also went to public school irrespective of ability.

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

"Anyway my answer stands OP. No. I would not like public schools abolished; even though I have never benefitted from that system.

Because I believe in choice, hard work, sacrifice and commitment (except relationships ((shudders))). I believe if you want something in this life you shouldn't expect it to land at your feet, if you want the best you work hard, make sacrifices and put up with the hard times because eventually your hard work pays off. I wasn't "lucky" I worked damn hard. My position remains steadfast too in so far as I truly believe that education (and health as the debate has widened) should be delivered to the best possible standards regardless of the ability to pay. As I have tried to explain I do not want to see the introduction of a planned economy with overloaded regulation but a level playing field solution to service delivery is not an unreasonable stance to take. I would happily contribute additional funding via taxation to bring about that level playing field. As for being lucky I have always found the harder I work the luckier I get!

the idea that more money = better service/quality is fundamentally flawed I am afraid.

However a glance of academic attainment records of private schools (in the main); would point towards a better system.

With effort from most of the parents and staff we more than matched the local fee paying schools in academic and sporting achievements. Just a fact!

You are very selective and narrow in your supposition. There are many examples of the state system working without the need to extract pupils and closet them away in a totally artificial social environment The school I was at achieved despite underfunding and social problems but to demonstrate a point the building that housed 2,000 pupils were of CLASP construction and full of asbestos and roofs that constantly leaked. I admit to being envious of the local fee paying schools building as they were watertight and had no asbestos in them. Envy? no just fairness!

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

"Boris Johnson is highly intelligent. I don't think David Cameron is though. What I don't agree with is nepotism, in which public school educated people in government give jobs to those who also went to public school irrespective of ability. "
Define intelligence?

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By *rightonsteveMan
over a year ago

Brighton - even Hove!

[Removed by poster at 19/05/16 10:45:14]

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By *rightonsteveMan
over a year ago

Brighton - even Hove!

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"the idea that more money = better service/quality is fundamentally flawed I am afraid.

On what basis do you base that statement? its clear to me that mainstream education in this country is underfunded particularly when you look at enhanced requirements provision.

Wow that is a very telling statement on your perception of society. I think totally the opposite in so far as an inclusive approach to education promotes a framework where all can succeed to their ability level. Your view of the world is completely outdated and has its roots in the past, thankfully.

I think you will find all education has origins way before the middle ages, but that is another subject.

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

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By *arry247Couple
over a year ago

Wakefield

"The issue is one of resource in my view and an equalling of the spend per pupil on state schools to the equivalent of a public school would be of value in my view. As for your comments on a planned economy no it does not work as has been proved."

Your argument does not hold water.

All parties claim there are no more resources for schools; they are already paying what the country can afford.

How would abolishing private schools suddenly release funds for state schools?

The only effect it would have would be to reduce the spend per pupil as there would be more pupils competing for the same funding

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Anyway my answer stands OP. No. I would not like public schools abolished; even though I have never benefitted from that system.

Because I believe in choice, hard work, sacrifice and commitment (except relationships ((shudders))). I believe if you want something in this life you shouldn't expect it to land at your feet, if you want the best you work hard, make sacrifices and put up with the hard times because eventually your hard work pays off. I wasn't "lucky" I worked damn hard. My position remains steadfast too in so far as I truly believe that education (and health as the debate has widened) should be delivered to the best possible standards regardless of the ability to pay. As I have tried to explain I do not want to see the introduction of a planned economy with overloaded regulation but a level playing field solution to service delivery is not an unreasonable stance to take. I would happily contribute additional funding via taxation to bring about that level playing field. As for being lucky I have always found the harder I work the luckier I get!

the idea that more money = better service/quality is fundamentally flawed I am afraid.

However a glance of academic attainment records of private schools (in the main); would point towards a better system.

With effort from most of the parents and staff we more than matched the local fee paying schools in academic and sporting achievements. Just a fact!

you are going round in circles, but your supposition that abolishing public schools (your original pos) will some how lead to a fairer playing field is incorrect; or should those that can afford to send their children should pay more tax? Because to be honest; I pay enough tax chap; more than most and I frigged off that I have to KEEP supporting those that do not have the inclination to work hard and achieve.

If you reduce choice, people will start thinking; "what's the point", "why should I try to attain more, for the common good?" I might as well do the least I can; for the same benefits as everyone else; then this country would fall apart, truly.....

The simple fact is that people that earn more, pay more tax, our thresholds are harsh; thats my opinion, I worked my nuts off, made many sacrifices and I am taxed more, year on year to pay for people that don't work hard, haven't made sacrifices and can afford more holidays than I can... I don't have sky... go down the "social housing" estates in my nearest town and they all have sky....

You want fair... It will be fair when people work for what they have; that's fair. Fair isn't taxing people that strive and sacrifice to attain more to within an inch of their life......

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

"the idea that more money = better service/quality is fundamentally flawed I am afraid.

On what basis do you base that statement? its clear to me that mainstream education in this country is underfunded particularly when you look at enhanced requirements provision.

I think you will find all education has origins way before the middle ages, but that is another subject.

May I borrow your rose coloured glasses some time? If your view is that parents will all chip in and encourage education and 6th formers are willing to give up some of their education and possibly achieve lower University places than they could have achieved, to act as unpaid teachers and provide literacy classes to the needy, we are obviously on different planets and I would like to apply to join yours please."
I don't think my planet is for you. As for looking through rose tinted spectacles I maybe but I am absolutely committed to providing excellence in educating the next generations and if that means providing resources to match that excellence then so be it. A two tier system based on ability to pay is not the way forward in my opinion.

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By *rightonsteveMan
over a year ago

Brighton - even Hove!

Why is that then? He comes across in the public media as some shuffling buffoon but I saw a BBC interview when they filmed him as mayor chairing a police meeting and he was eloquent, had a good grasp of the facts and situation and was clearly motivated to find solutions. Stupid people wouldn't be able to do that as well as he did. Unless he's a good actor.

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By *arry247Couple
over a year ago

Wakefield

The school I went to was a private school but local children from poor families had their fees paid by a direct grant.

In 1975 the Labour Government was oppossed to such privelige and stopped the grant.

Resut

The children of poor families no longer had a first class education and were bussed off to a failing comp.

That is the reality of what is being proposed

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By *rightonsteveMan
over a year ago

Brighton - even Hove!

I think that if state schools were given the resources that public schools get, then they too would be able to provide a top notch education. Or at least try.

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

"Anyway my answer stands OP. No. I would not like public schools abolished; even though I have never benefitted from that system.

Because I believe in choice, hard work, sacrifice and commitment (except relationships ((shudders))). I believe if you want something in this life you shouldn't expect it to land at your feet, if you want the best you work hard, make sacrifices and put up with the hard times because eventually your hard work pays off. I wasn't "lucky" I worked damn hard. My position remains steadfast too in so far as I truly believe that education (and health as the debate has widened) should be delivered to the best possible standards regardless of the ability to pay. As I have tried to explain I do not want to see the introduction of a planned economy with overloaded regulation but a level playing field solution to service delivery is not an unreasonable stance to take. I would happily contribute additional funding via taxation to bring about that level playing field. As for being lucky I have always found the harder I work the luckier I get!

the idea that more money = better service/quality is fundamentally flawed I am afraid.

However a glance of academic attainment records of private schools (in the main); would point towards a better system.

With effort from most of the parents and staff we more than matched the local fee paying schools in academic and sporting achievements. Just a fact!

You want fair... It will be fair when people work for what they have; that's fair. Fair isn't taxing people that strive and sacrifice to attain more to within an inch of their life......"

Park the tax issue for a moment.

My proposition is that we have a two tier system and if both were merged and resourced fairly to achieve a better provision for all that would be fair and equitable. That is my position. You have a different opinion.

We all have to die and pay taxes that is life. Like you, probably, I am single, have no tax personal allowance and pay tax at the highest rate possible. I have worked all my life and paid my taxes without set of deduction or avoidance on time. My view is simple there are no free lunches and if you want the very best it costs as the private educational sector can attest. I, seemingly unlike you, would be more than happy to contribute some additional revenue to assist in the improvement of the education system in particular. If my taxes were raised I would have no desire to leave the country as this is my home and probably the best country to live in. Insular and protective views are just so last year, in my humble opinion!

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I said nothing about leaving the country.... your argument CANNOT avoid the tax issue; as you are proposing that we abolish public schools and that the people that pay these fees, pay additionally to the state (a system they obviously don't trust to educate their children)..... you are trying to level a playing field which is already level; opportunity exists; it did for you, apparently, and I know it did for me; I just had to take it, and work for it; thats life.....

My reference to "what's the point"; why should the higher tax brackets work hard to have even more taken from them to pay for a failing state system that may/may not benefit from more cash? Why should they work their nuts off? We could all just apply for social housing and sit doing nothing all day; our choice of how to spend our wealth has been diminished; why try to accumulate?

But when the entire country is on benefit as all choice of how wealth is spent have been abolished, well where will the money come from then? Your utopian view of a country without Tiers in any service is ridiculous; yet your sentiment is admirable; if we existed in a vacuum without wealth, where each role was equally valued, where people did not abuse power, where money was not mismanaged; where politics looked far to the future, not to tomorrow and retaining control, where corruption was gone; and each member of society chose to be productive. When that happens, then the tiers will go. Until then.....

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

As an aside the population in 1979 was just over 56 million people today its just over 65 million

GDP expenditure on education in 1979 was just under £45 Billion (2014 prices) in 2012/13 it was just under (£90 Billion).

We have doubled (200%) our expenditure on education for a growth in population of 11% in population. How much more money does this system need to "succeed" ? Perhaps its time to admit that the system is broken, not the way its financed?

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By *rightonsteveMan
over a year ago

Brighton - even Hove!

Yeah ok.

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

To cut the text down I have not responded with the quote.

I am not seeking Utopia I am seeking fair and equitable procurement of education (and health) regardless of the ability to pay. This ambition is not beyond the capability of a civilised society.

You can only eat one breakfast, drive one car or even sail one luxury yacht so I have to agree that amassing huge amounts of wealth is not my bag but for those who see the merits in it I say crack on.

I have been diligent and worked hard so I can provide my own accommodation and for my future. Those who are not in the same position as me are not to be denigrated or seen as a drain on society they are to be given the assistance they need to live their lives?

One point more then I promise I will skip down the country lane to Utopia! I provide professional advice to those who are experiencing housing problems particularly those trying to get basic standards within their accommodation. On average I see 100 folk a year. I have yet to come across anyone who is bucking the system or if they could would not be in the situation they are in. All of those people have a story to tell be it redundancy, ill health or even victims of domestic violence and if they could they would change their situation in a heart beat.

So Education, health and housing those are the basic deliverables of a decent and civilised society and should procured to the highest standards available.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"To cut the text down I have not responded with the quote.

I am not seeking Utopia I am seeking fair and equitable procurement of education (and health) regardless of the ability to pay. This ambition is not beyond the capability of a civilised society.

So Education, health and housing those are the basic deliverables of a decent and civilised society and should procured to the highest standards available."

Garnering more taxes from the wealthy will not solve these issues; in any way; if anything it may lead to more of those issues....

The collapse of the family unit and traditional support structures in modern society is not to be blamed on either the poor or the rich, but the way in which the world has developed; for a variety of reasons, but all have a comment root; the policies that successive governments have p

icised; the abandonment of common sense and fiscal responsibility in favour of popularist promises that bankrupt our country. We cannot sustain our country on its current path; each year our debt increases; yet each year we spend more on public services (by % GDP) . In real terms, the money is there.

The structures and policies that are in place at this time are short-sighted and mismanaged.

I can never agree with your stance, as you cannot agree with mine; as such I think, you win, because no matter what I present you will punch false holes in. The simple reality is this... money spent badly; is money spent badly; we have DOUBLED our GDP expenditure on education since 1979, and will continue to increase that expenditure; but the governance of education has increased exponentially; which has impacted where this money is spent. Its not the funding that needs changing; its how that funding is spent, and on what.

The money that would be accrued (in your opinion) from abolishing public schools and taxing more; would just be a bigger pot to mismanage and present no change in the system whatsoever.

I'm out

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By *rightonsteveMan
over a year ago

Brighton - even Hove!

I must say, I did rather well at school before huge amounts of dosh were spent on OfSTED. Better for education, I think, if that had gone directly to local government and schools. I agree: it's not how much money is spent but how it is spent. Saying that, our local school needs asbestos in the walls removing and neither the school not the council can afford to do it. A bit more money upfront for that might help in the long run.

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

"As an aside the population in 1979 was just over 56 million people today its just over 65 million

GDP expenditure on education in 1979 was just under £45 Billion (2014 prices) in 2012/13 it was just under (£90 Billion).

What proportion of the 11% rise in population relates to school age children. How much of the annual budget is spent on PFI schemes payments? Raw an unexplained stats are rarely helpful.

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

"To cut the text down I have not responded with the quote.

I am not seeking Utopia I am seeking fair and equitable procurement of education (and health) regardless of the ability to pay. This ambition is not beyond the capability of a civilised society.

So Education, health and housing those are the basic deliverables of a decent and civilised society and should procured to the highest standards available.

Garnering more taxes from the wealthy will not solve these issues; in any way; if anything it may lead to more of those issues....

The structures and policies that are in place at this time are short-sighted and mismanaged.

The money that would be accrued (in your opinion) from abolishing public schools and taxing more; would just be a bigger pot to mismanage and present no change in the system whatsoever.

I'm out "

Shame.

This is the UK household budget

•Public Pensions £150 billion

•Sickness and disability £40bn

•Old age pensions £107bn

•National Health Care + £133 billion

•State Education +£98billion

•Defence + £46 billion

•Social Security + £110 billion

•State Protection + £30 billion

•Transport+ £20 billion •Roads – £3bn

•Local transport – £9bn

•General Government + £14 billion

•Executive and legislative – £5.9bn

•Other Public Services + £86 billion

•Social housing – £1.2bn

•Waste management – £9bn

•Public Sector Interest + £52 billion

Cost of EU

•Gross payment to EU – £17.2bn

•Net payment to EU – £8.6bn

Overseas aid is calculated at £7.8bn

Where do we make savings?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"As an aside the population in 1979 was just over 56 million people today its just over 65 million

GDP expenditure on education in 1979 was just under £45 Billion (2014 prices) in 2012/13 it was just under (£90 Billion).

What proportion of the 11% rise in population relates to school age children. How much of the annual budget is spent on PFI schemes payments? Raw an unexplained stats are rarely helpful."

www.parliament.uk/briefing-papers/SN01078.pdf

Which will give you a break down

Census data year on year (or best guess projections) are available on the web, if you wish to search for those demographics please do. It will not alter the fact that there is a 200% increase in expenditure for a TOTAL population increase of 11%. Money doesn't solve the problems in education (money seldom solves the problem in any system); fixing the broken system, solves the problems of broken systems.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"It seems to me that ypu think teachers in state schools are not as good as those teaching at private schools. Also doctors and nurses in the nhs. Is that a fair assumption?

So maybe you should look at thr politics involved and makesure you research and use your right to vote at every opportunity?

You assume incorrectly and if you took the time to read my posts you will see that I have participated in the educational system and value the work of teachers and support staff.

I doubt if Eton has a SENco but give the establishment has produced Boris Johnson I suspect The educational psychologist was rather busy."

At the point i wrote that you hadnt and no i didnt read every post. Sue me....

So we are back to politics again even you have said so above. So i still dont understand why your talking about the private schools when its the goverment policies tgat need to change???

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

"As an aside the population in 1979 was just over 56 million people today its just over 65 million

GDP expenditure on education in 1979 was just under £45 Billion (2014 prices) in 2012/13 it was just under (£90 Billion).

What proportion of the 11% rise in population relates to school age children. How much of the annual budget is spent on PFI schemes payments? Raw an unexplained stats are rarely helpful.

www.parliament.uk/briefing-papers/SN01078.pdf

Which will give you a break down

I am of the view that universal benefits should be severely curtailed to those who need them.

The tax free allowance from private pensions should be raised to 50% on the basis that 25% can only be spent on reducing household debt.

Instead of withdrawing from the EU we negotiate a reduction in contributions by £3.5bn over the next 5 years and use that money to pay down the debt repayments (£55bn)

VAT is raised to 22.5% for 3 years

HMRC get their fingers out and tasked to reduce tax evasion by £550 per year for the next 10 years (piece of piss)

All non essential budgets are reduced by 0.25% for the life of this parliament

By my hairy arsed builder from Manchester calculations that would reduce the debt repayments to a manageable amount!

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

"It seems to me that ypu think teachers in state schools are not as good as those teaching at private schools. Also doctors and nurses in the nhs. Is that a fair assumption?

So maybe you should look at thr politics involved and makesure you research and use your right to vote at every opportunity?

You assume incorrectly and if you took the time to read my posts you will see that I have participated in the educational system and value the work of teachers and support staff.

I doubt if Eton has a SENco but give the establishment has produced Boris Johnson I suspect The educational psychologist was rather busy.

At the point i wrote that you hadnt and no i didnt read every post. Sue me....

So we are back to politics again even you have said so above. So i still dont understand why your talking about the private schools when its the goverment policies tgat need to change???

"
............now I am out!

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By *otlovefun42Couple
over a year ago

Costa Blanca Spain...

"Should fee paying schools be abolished in favour of a fully state funded alternative?"

No full stop.

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By *otlovefun42Couple
over a year ago

Costa Blanca Spain...

"Its interesting that three quarters of the cabinet and half the Labour front bench went to fee paying schools?"

Of course they did. because the pot of ex Grammar school kids is slowly drying up.

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