FabSwingers.com forum: Payments to the EU

By *adyboy-Daddy OP Couple
over a year ago

Andover

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By *adyboy-Daddy OP Couple
over a year ago

Andover

Picking up on another thread before it maxes out.

One of the most important things for me to understand in making my decision on the big vote is the payments we make to the EU.

I am still undecided. My heart says leave and my head says stay.

Here is my understanding of the payments made. It shouldn't be difficult, it's just facts and maths. (As there are numerous sources let's not get hung up on a billion here or there or wether £18bn a year or £380 million a week or £55 million a day. It's all in the same ballpark)

Our commitment to the £18bn a year.

We get a rebate of £5bn before we ever pay it so the bill is actually £13bn

We get about £5bn a year back in subsidies and payments that if we didn't get we would have to fulfill anyway.

So net, we are out about £8bn a year.

We pay just under a billion in foreign aid through the EU that we have committed to regardless of our membership so if we vote out, we will still pay it.

I recon that means we would save £7-£7.5bn not being in.

How much not being in would or would not cost us is another thing but am I about right in the costs of membership?

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By *iamondjoeMan
over a year ago

Glastonbury

The supposed amount we'd save is in the region of £10bn per year.

I'd just like to highlight that the contingency fund for Trident alone (just the contingency fund, mind) is £18bn.

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By *iamondjoeMan
over a year ago

Glastonbury

"The supposed amount we'd save is in the region of £10bn per year.

I'd just like to highlight that the contingency fund for Trident alone (just the contingency fund, mind) is £18bn.

My figures are dreadfully out -

* £8.5bn (apologies) for net saving Brexiters claim

* £10bn - Trident contingency

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By *ophieslutTV/TS
over a year ago

Central

I'm wondering what all of our citizens will save, once EU roaming charges are fully scrapped in 2017. 10 million people saving even £5 per year is £50 million.

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By *iamondjoeMan
over a year ago

Glastonbury

On the plus side the Chancellor has just given away nearly the same amount...

* £4.4bn - reversal to disability benefits cuts

* £4.8bn combined amounts Osborne gave away at the budget by reducing capital gains tax for windfalls over £11k and income tax for those earning over £43k.

It's all just noughts on a computer screen.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Hello all,

to me it's not about what we pay or the affect on trade (I accept that there will be losers and probably some winners in the short term, long term it's up to us to do better)

What I am really against is the steady progress over decades to the ultimate goal of a federal Europe, each country basically disappearing into an amalgam of the E.U.. The one size fits all policy and single armed forces, single rates of taxation, a single central bank, etc. We have implemented many E.U. directives to our detriment. It's time to stop and this will be our only chance for a long time.

We have had very little influence in shaping the E.U. in the past and will have even less influence as time and more countries join. They will not be wealthy countries so will gain at a loss to the more successful countries such as the U.K..

Alec

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By *iamondjoeMan
over a year ago

Glastonbury

"We have had very little influence in shaping the E.U. in the past and will have even less influence as time and more countries join. They will not be wealthy countries so will gain at a loss to the more successful countries such as the U.K..

Alec "

Arguably this is because the UK is more concerned whether EU membership is a good idea or not, rather than getting stuck in, right at the heart of the engine room, with France and Germany...

We could have far more influence, if we chose.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Alec

Arguably this is because the UK is more concerned whether EU membership is a good idea or not, rather than getting stuck in, right at the heart of the engine room, with France and Germany...

We could have far more influence, if we chose."

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By *enard ArgenteMan
over a year ago

London and France

Alec

Arguably this is because the UK is more concerned whether EU membership is a good idea or not, rather than getting stuck in, right at the heart of the engine room, with France and Germany...

We could have far more influence, if we chose."

exactly;

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Alec

Arguably this is because the UK is more concerned whether EU membership is a good idea or not, rather than getting stuck in, right at the heart of the engine room, with France and Germany...

We could have far more influence, if we chose."

Agreed, it's just a shame that the MEP elections never got much press until recently. Hopefully when the next one comes around there will be a better turn out, for better or worse.

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By *iamondjoeMan
over a year ago

Glastonbury

Alec

Arguably this is because the UK is more concerned whether EU membership is a good idea or not, rather than getting stuck in, right at the heart of the engine room, with France and Germany...

We could have far more influence, if we chose.

Agreed, it's just a shame that the MEP elections never got much press until recently. Hopefully when the next one comes around there will be a better turn out, for better or worse."

Again, it tells you a lot about the British attitude towards Europe that UKIP - essentially a joke party - is the largest single group of UK MEPs...

Not that the European Parliament decides anything much...

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

The UK is how much in debt? A trillion? and people are worried about adding a billion here or there to it?

The UK has forced as much on Europe as Europe has forced on the UK. A lot of the rules/laws in Europe were actually written by the UK.

It's gonna hurt the UK to leave, can it survive? Sure, but what has EU done wrong?

People say uk companies have gone down hill, but whats that got to do with Europe? Landrover/Jag are Indian not european etc.

the problem with the UK is, Richard Branson type people who break their backs building up top brands, only to sell them to the top bidder who has no care for the brand. How many companies do that? How many British Business people think the end game of their business is to sell it and cash out? Americans own virgin media.

It's a cash out mentality that you have to stop. If you want UK to be great you have to go all in, not cash out. Go all in like the people behind rolls royce did, how the founders of jaguar, land rover did, cause when uk goes all in everything they do is top in the world. When they cash out, its just tat.

Leaving or staying in europe wont change that cash out attitude.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Alec

Arguably this is because the UK is more concerned whether EU membership is a good idea or not, rather than getting stuck in, right at the heart of the engine room, with France and Germany...

We could have far more influence, if we chose."
.

I don't agree.

Every single pm and government including all opposition parties have been pro eu for the last 40 years.

So you'd have to ask the question,If in 40 years of having no anti EU party, pm or opposition... Then why the fuck do we presume the government have been blocking influence because they dislike the place!.

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By *iamondjoeMan
over a year ago

Glastonbury

Alec

Arguably this is because the UK is more concerned whether EU membership is a good idea or not, rather than getting stuck in, right at the heart of the engine room, with France and Germany...

We could have far more influence, if we chose..

I don't agree.

Every single pm and government including all opposition parties have been pro eu for the last 40 years.

Would you describe the Thatcher g'met as pro-EU? Or the omni-shambles of the Major administration?

The UK is undeniably suspicious of the EU and all its works.

You wait 'till the Tories tear themselves apart with 1/ the referendum 2/ the leadership contest.

You'll see.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Alec

Arguably this is because the UK is more concerned whether EU membership is a good idea or not, rather than getting stuck in, right at the heart of the engine room, with France and Germany...

We could have far more influence, if we chose..

I don't agree.

Every single pm and government including all opposition parties have been pro eu for the last 40 years.

Would you describe the Thatcher g'met as pro-EU? Or the omni-shambles of the Major administration?

The UK is undeniably suspicious of the EU and all its works.

You wait 'till the Tories tear themselves apart with 1/ the referendum 2/ the leadership contest.

You'll see.

"
.

Thatcher was very much a pro EU fan with maybe a few reservations about who should join, she thought there'd be problems between northern and southern economies using a single currency, she was right!!

She did sign the agreement for freedom of movement and never mentioned ever leaving, in fact her government spent hundreds of millions propping up the ERM.

I mean sure every party has had back bench anti eu candidates but honestly if you look, we've had less anti EU government officials than most other European countries.

I wouldn't deny that the UK government has been obstinate towards EU policy at times but it's never been because there anti EU.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

The OP asked about net financial gain or loss. It would be interesting to hear peoples views on this rather than the usual spiral into other issues.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

The Dutch, the Irish, the Portuguese, the Danish have all rejected more EU deals than the UK.

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By *its_n_piecesCouple
over a year ago

"You wait 'till the Tories tear themselves apart with 1/ the referendum 2/ the leadership contest.

You'll see.

it won't stop the turkeys from queuing up to vote for christmas though

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"The OP asked about net financial gain or loss. It would be interesting to hear peoples views on this rather than the usual spiral into other issues."
.

The ops been on every eu thread for weeks proclaiming being torn but always giving pro EU facts?.

In fact they've only just finished arguing about what the figure is on the thread that ended ten minutes ago.

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By *adyboy-Daddy OP Couple
over a year ago

Andover

The ops been on every eu thread for weeks proclaiming being torn but always giving pro EU facts?.

In fact they've only just finished arguing about what the figure is on the thread that ended ten minutes ago."

As literally mentioned in my opening post, that's the point of the post, to see if clarity can be brought to this point following on from the other thread! It's not exactly a hidden agenda!!!

As for being on every EU thread, rubbish. I have watched the vast majority of them from the sidelines in an effort to gain a perspective and I don't proclaim to be torn, I am.

I don't see how facts can be for or against EU, they are just facts.

I am trying to find better reasons to leave than the ones being presented with.

Perhaps you think I should stop trying to clarify issues but rather than trying to close down debate you could give your opinion on my under standing of the economic facts mentioned.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

The ops been on every eu thread for weeks proclaiming being torn but always giving pro EU facts?.

In fact they've only just finished arguing about what the figure is on the thread that ended ten minutes ago.

As literally mentioned in my opening post, that's the point of the post, to see if clarity can be brought to this point following on from the other thread! It's not exactly a hidden agenda!!!

As for being on every EU thread, rubbish. I have watched the vast majority of them from the sidelines in an effort to gain a perspective and I don't proclaim to be torn, I am.

I don't see how facts can be for or against EU, they are just facts.

I am trying to find better reasons to leave than the ones being presented with.

Perhaps you think I should stop trying to clarify issues but rather than trying to close down debate you could give your opinion on my under standing of the economic facts mentioned. "

I am afraid that you will never get clarity. All statistical figures are skewed depending upon who is quoting them. And no one knows the future whether we stay or leave.

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By *adyboy-Daddy OP Couple
over a year ago

Andover

Apreciate that what will happen is up for debate and is a matter of opinion but surely the facts around what it currently does and historically has cost us are a simple matter of record.

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By *htcMan
over a year ago

hopefully the payments will end soon when we get out. and get back control of britain,

we didnt go to war so another country can control us.

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By *phroditeWoman
over a year ago

(She/ her) in Sensualityland

I said it before, I will say it again... There are some very good reasons to leave but a hell of a lot more to stay including the one about being stronger as part of a larger entity.

Nobody can say with any authority what will, might, could be either way.

In absence of facts and clairvoyants being sure about the consequences, either way, is it not better to remain and work on what needs improving rather than running away hoping for the promises of a better future "out" to come true?

Just a thought... and btw nothing to do with my current residence. My family, my heart, my head resides in both countries.

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By *adyboy-Daddy OP Couple
over a year ago

Andover

"hopefully the payments will end soon when we get out. and get back control of britain,

we didnt go to war so another country can control us. "

So if there is no debate that the saving is more like £8 or £9bn rather than £18bn, how much will it cost us to trade with EU if we leave?

(Understandably, here it becomes pure conjecture)

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Apreciate that what will happen is up for debate and is a matter of opinion but surely the facts around what it currently does and historically has cost us are a simple matter of record.

"
.

I honestly will hold my hands up and say, you'll probably be worse off, but that's a guess based on statistical analysis.

Nobody definitely knows either way.

I'm not actually anti EU, I think it's a great idea, I just think it's badly planned and drawn out with the forces of capitalism being the primary driver!.

I'd vote stay if they actually offered an alternative to the status quo but sadly they don't.

So I'm voting leave

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"hopefully the payments will end soon when we get out. and get back control of britain,

we didnt go to war so another country can control us.

So if there is no debate that the saving is more like £8 or £9bn rather than £18bn, how much will it cost us to trade with EU if we leave?

(Understandably, here it becomes pure conjecture)"
.

I've said it before, my primary driver is not money, it's no good telling me how financially better off I'll be, I'm really not interested, I don't blame other people for caring about it, that's there prerogative.

For me it's about political control

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By *adyboy-Daddy OP Couple
over a year ago

Andover

For me it's about political control"

That's probably exactly where I am at with it.

I have a pretty solid job (fingers crossed) that won't be directly affected either way so my personal finances won't change.

I much prefer us being the masters of our own destiny but don't want it at the expense of others.

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By *phroditeWoman
over a year ago

(She/ her) in Sensualityland

The world has become more global and that probably sounds like an obvious statement to make.

What I am saying really is that there is no longer the "British" Britain, the "French" France, the "German" Germany etc that we had decades ago.

Today's countries are multicultural and now amount of trying to keep things "pur" will succeed in the long run. I believe we have to accept that the future in all countries, except perhaps totalitarian dictatorships, will be one of mixing, blending and probably becoming stronger as a result.

A steak and ale pie is quite nice with a glass of French wine, a croissant taste good with English tea.

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By *andS66Couple
over a year ago

Derby

For me it's about political control

That's probably exactly where I am at with it.

I have a pretty solid job (fingers crossed) that won't be directly affected either way so my personal finances won't change.

I much prefer us being the masters of our own destiny but don't want it at the expense of others. "

Our net payment is in the region of about £8 to £9 Billion, after we've had our rebate back. Rebate is about £5 Billion, but is not guaranteed. I think the next review of it is in 2017. When it was agreed to, it was signed off as a ' transitional measure'.

It has been calculated independently that, were we to leave, we could 'licence' our fishing waters for about £3 Billion a year.

I think, whether we stay in or leave, trade will continue. It is said that 3 million of our jobs are 'linked' to the EU... but on the other hand, about 5 or 6 Million jobs in the EU are linked to their trade with us... the majority in Germany and France.

If we do vote out, the remain camp shouldn't be too despondent, for it will never happen... we'll either be forced to have another vote until we 'make the right decision', or, more likely, every major party will have as part of its next election manifesto a line that they want to remain in, and will justify the reversal of an out vote by being given the mandate to stay in when voted into government.

This will be the only thing in any party's manifesto that they stick to.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

For me it's about political control

That's probably exactly where I am at with it.

I have a pretty solid job (fingers crossed) that won't be directly affected either way so my personal finances won't change.

I much prefer us being the masters of our own destiny but don't want it at the expense of others.

It has been calculated independently that, were we to leave, we could 'licence' our fishing waters for about £3 Billion a year.

This will be the only thing in any party's manifesto that they stick to. "

But that doesn't make any sense. If the majority have voted to leave then who would want to fight an election giving a mandate to stay in? They would be condemning their party to defeat surely

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

You wait 'till the Tories tear themselves apart with 1/ the referendum 2/ the leadership contest.

Do you promise? Go on make my year

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"The world has become more global and that probably sounds like an obvious statement to make.

What I am saying really is that there is no longer the "British" Britain, the "French" France, the "German" Germany etc that we had decades ago.

A steak and ale pie is quite nice with a glass of French wine, a croissant taste good with English tea."

Quite well put an I love the analogies at the end. In all seriousness though, you have a valid point, European Imperialism followed by free market trade means that all modern and developed nations are to some extent multicultural.

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By *andS66Couple
over a year ago

Derby

For me it's about political control

That's probably exactly where I am at with it.

I have a pretty solid job (fingers crossed) that won't be directly affected either way so my personal finances won't change.

I much prefer us being the masters of our own destiny but don't want it at the expense of others.

It has been calculated independently that, were we to leave, we could 'licence' our fishing waters for about £3 Billion a year.

This will be the only thing in any party's manifesto that they stick to.

But that doesn't make any sense. If the majority have voted to leave then who would want to fight an election giving a mandate to stay in? They would be condemning their party to defeat surely"

EVERY major party will have it in their manifesto, so it will be no choice.

But look at Scotland, they voted to stay in the UK, the SNP want to come out of the UK, and the SNP sweep the board.

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By *thwalescplCouple
over a year ago

brecon

Someone from the Treasury said that EU red tape costs us about 7% of our GDP, meaning that each household would be about £4,600 a year better off if we pulled out, which wipes out the "stay" campaigns claim that each household would be about £5k worse off every year lol.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"The world has become more global and that probably sounds like an obvious statement to make.

What I am saying really is that there is no longer the "British" Britain, the "French" France, the "German" Germany etc that we had decades ago.

A steak and ale pie is quite nice with a glass of French wine, a croissant taste good with English tea.

Japan number 2 in the world, no multiculturalism.

China number 3 in the world, no multiculturalism.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"The world has become more global and that probably sounds like an obvious statement to make.

What I am saying really is that there is no longer the "British" Britain, the "French" France, the "German" Germany etc that we had decades ago.

A steak and ale pie is quite nice with a glass of French wine, a croissant taste good with English tea.

Japan number 2 in the world, no multiculturalism.

China number 3 in the world, no multiculturalism.

Both are multicultural - the key phrase was to some extent.

If you view Hong Kong as part of China now, that has a huge expat community, Okinawa is much the same in Japan. Both accept non-nationals living and moving in and out off their borders temporarily for business. Therefore they are multicultural to some extent.

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By *horehouseCouple
over a year ago

dissatisfied

"Someone from the Treasury said that EU red tape costs us about 7% of our GDP, meaning that each household would be about £4,600 a year better off if we pulled out, which wipes out the "stay" campaigns claim that each household would be about £5k worse off every year lol.

"
wow you must be rich to pay 4600 in tax each year most households don't ..ohh yea and stupid if you believe either sides rhetoric..

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"The world has become more global and that probably sounds like an obvious statement to make.

What I am saying really is that there is no longer the "British" Britain, the "French" France, the "German" Germany etc that we had decades ago.

A steak and ale pie is quite nice with a glass of French wine, a croissant taste good with English tea.

Japan number 2 in the world, no multiculturalism.

China number 3 in the world, no multiculturalism.

Both are multicultural - the key phrase was to some extent.

Are they bollocks multicultural society's.

Japan took in about 10 Syrians not ten thousand, just ten!.

Japan is the least multicultural society I've ever seen ever in the entire world... Christ they completely cut themselves off for 200 years fearing the ingression of other cultures

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By *adyboy-Daddy OP Couple
over a year ago

Andover

Do you know who it was the treasury or have a reference?

How will the money being saved land in the hands of each household?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"The world has become more global and that probably sounds like an obvious statement to make.

What I am saying really is that there is no longer the "British" Britain, the "French" France, the "German" Germany etc that we had decades ago.

A steak and ale pie is quite nice with a glass of French wine, a croissant taste good with English tea.

Japan number 2 in the world, no multiculturalism.

China number 3 in the world, no multiculturalism.

Both are multicultural - the key phrase was to some extent.

Are they bollocks multicultural society's.

Japan took in about 10 Syrians not ten thousand, just ten!.

Japan is the least multicultural society I've ever seen ever in the entire world... Christ they completely cut themselves off for 200 years fearing the ingression of other cultures"

I think it comes down to your definition of multiculturalism. I view it not just as races and cultures living within their borders, but openness to allow foreign companies to operate within them, co-operation on the world stage.

Yes, there are better examples which are clearer cut as well - America, Canada, India, Britain.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

For me it's about political control

That's probably exactly where I am at with it.

I have a pretty solid job (fingers crossed) that won't be directly affected either way so my personal finances won't change.

I much prefer us being the masters of our own destiny but don't want it at the expense of others.

It has been calculated independently that, were we to leave, we could 'licence' our fishing waters for about £3 Billion a year.

This will be the only thing in any party's manifesto that they stick to.

But that doesn't make any sense. If the majority have voted to leave then who would want to fight an election giving a mandate to stay in? They would be condemning their party to defeat surely

EVERY major party will have it in their manifesto, so it will be no choice.

But look at Scotland, they voted to stay in the UK, the SNP want to come out of the UK, and the SNP sweep the board."

But leaving the UK wasn't in their manifesto was it?

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By *ildt123Man
over a year ago

Huddersfield

Again I'm not fully decided one way or the other yet but a couple of things I've read.

Norway is often quoted as being outside the EU but still has trade agreements but in reality they contribute the same per head to the EU as we do for the trade right.

"Our laws are all made by the EU" apparently if you look at the text of all UK laws only 13% have any mention of EU even if only in an advisory or consultancy capacity. Much of the daft laws quoted in papers as coming from EU are a lie and aren't even law.

The process of negotiating leaving will take at least two years during which the uncertainty will likely cause some economic difficulty.

Having said that border control is key for me but I can't see why we can't make border control laws and tell EU tough if they don't like them, not like they will kick us out is it

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By *ethnmelvCouple
over a year ago

Cardiff

I started being pro staying in the EU, then began to feel that we would be better off outside and have now come back to being a strong supporter of staying. Why? I feel That we have gained a lot in the past 40 years, Britain struggled before joining the EU and we have become a better society over this period, but the EU has expanded too fast, has tried to be a social & political experiement rather than a trading partnership so it has lost some of its gloss. But, walking away will leave us more vulnerable. I now feel that i would rsther remain part of the EU and see us take a more deliberate and active part in changing the EU for the better. This is just my view and the journey I have been on, whichever way it goes I support the vote, I just hope enough people actually do vote to make it meaningful...

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By *thwalescplCouple
over a year ago

brecon

wow you must be rich to pay 4600 in tax each year most households don't ..ohh yea and stupid if you believe either sides rhetoric.."

Firstly, it isn't tax, its what EU red tape costs the country every year.... and secondly, it was a Treasury spokesperson.

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By *abioMan
over a year ago

Newcastle and Gateshead

but what you need to also be aware of is that "EU red tape" isn't costing the UK a single job.... whereas if you are pull out.... that will cost jobs...... and a lot of them....

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By *andS66Couple
over a year ago

Derby

but what you need to also be aware of is that "EU red tape" isn't costing the UK a single job.... whereas if you are pull out.... that will cost jobs...... and a lot of them...."

How or why will pulling out cost jobs?

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By *adyboy-Daddy OP Couple
over a year ago

Andover

So I posted this yesterday after seeing people endlessly quoting the £18bn a year/£380m a week/£55m a day figure which is pretty much the cornerstone of the leave campaign.

I felt it was misleading and being deliberately quoted out of context.

Not one single person has posted to defend the use of these figures. I'm starting to think that speaks volumes.

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By *entaur_UKMan
over a year ago

Cannock

"So I posted this yesterday after seeing people endlessly quoting the £18bn a year/£380m a week/£55m a day figure which is pretty much the cornerstone of the leave campaign.

I felt it was misleading and being deliberately quoted out of context.

Not one single person has posted to defend the use of these figures. I'm starting to think that speaks volumes. "

As discussed yesterday on the John Major thread the £18 billion per year figure is given on the full fact website and then goes on to explain how that figure is broken down with rebates and other payments. The BBC use the full fact website to check EU facts on so it's reasonable to use facts and figures that are given on there.

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By *entaur_UKMan
over a year ago

Cannock

For me it's about political control

There are arguments put forward by the leave side which say we will be better off financially if we leave the EU, such as "the economists for Brexit" report which was released last week.

news.sky.com/story/1686730/uk-better-off-outside-eu-economists-say

I think when you add in other issues like sovereignty, immigration, undemocratic processes, national security and where the EU is heading in future (an EU army, Turkey becoming a member and ever closer political and monetary union) then the case for leaving is much stronger than the one to remain.

An ICM poll released yesterday put Leave ahead on 46% with Remain on 43% so despite Cameron and Co. Project Fear and Project pessimism, Obama and Hollande's threats and the taxpayer funded £9 million Propaganda leaflet polls are still going in the wrong direction for Cameron.

(closed, thread got too big)

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By *adyboy-Daddy OP Couple
over a year ago

Andover

"So I posted this yesterday after seeing people endlessly quoting the £18bn a year/£380m a week/£55m a day figure which is pretty much the cornerstone of the leave campaign.

I felt it was misleading and being deliberately quoted out of context.

Not one single person has posted to defend the use of these figures. I'm starting to think that speaks volumes.

it actually goes on to explain how that figure is not the figure we pay. But don't tell anyone

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Remember Vote SNP 5th May boys n girls

SNP

(closed, thread got too big)

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I'm going to vote for free curry on the day

(closed, thread got too big)

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"So I posted this yesterday after seeing people endlessly quoting the £18bn a year/£380m a week/£55m a day figure which is pretty much the cornerstone of the leave campaign.

I felt it was misleading and being deliberately quoted out of context.

Not one single person has posted to defend the use of these figures. I'm starting to think that speaks volumes.

This is what I despise most about ukip activists on here. They cannot tell the truth. People would have to be totally stupid to believe you on anything if you can't even get the simplest thing right. I know you only do it to be annoying but it is pathetic.

(closed, thread got too big)

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By *entaur_UKMan
over a year ago

Cannock

"So I posted this yesterday after seeing people endlessly quoting the £18bn a year/£380m a week/£55m a day figure which is pretty much the cornerstone of the leave campaign.

I felt it was misleading and being deliberately quoted out of context.

Not one single person has posted to defend the use of these figures. I'm starting to think that speaks volumes.

Why is the £18 billion figure mentioned on the full fact website then?

Quote directly from the full fact website clearly says.....

"The UK gets an instant rebate on its EU Membership fee of £5 billion, without which the UK would be liable to pay the sum of £18 billion.

That then gives the £13 billion figure.

Carry on with the petty Ukip insults, it reflects more on you than it does me, in case you hadn't noticed the case being made to leave the EU has elements of support from a wide range of parties including Conservative, Labour, UKIP, Respect party, Green party, to name just a few. It's pathetic that you continue to see this as a Ukip only issue.

(closed, thread got too big)

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"So I posted this yesterday after seeing people endlessly quoting the £18bn a year/£380m a week/£55m a day figure which is pretty much the cornerstone of the leave campaign.

I felt it was misleading and being deliberately quoted out of context.

Not one single person has posted to defend the use of these figures. I'm starting to think that speaks volumes.

Why is the £18 billion figure mentioned on the full fact website then?

Quote directly from the full fact website clearly says.....

"The UK gets an instant rebate on its EU Membership fee of £5 billion, without which the UK would be liable to pay the sum of £18 billion.

That then gives the £13 billion figure.

The sentence before your quote says: The UK doesn’t pay or "send to Brussels" this higher figure of £18 billion, or anything equivalent per week or per day.

You continue to lie and misrepresent the truth as instructed by the masters you slavishly follow from UKIP. You are a ukip stooge not a representative of labour, Tory, green or any other party. If it reflects on me for pointing out that you wouldn't recognise the truth if it came up and slapped you in the face, then so be it.

(closed, thread got too big)

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By *adyboy-Daddy OP Couple
over a year ago

Andover

So Centaur, for the sake of clarity (which was the purpose of the thread in the first place) are my sine in the initial post about right or not?

Would the net saving if we left the EU be about £8bn or £9bn or would it be the full £18bn?

You see the thing is I agree with poster above. I think the leave campaign is losing voters hand over fist because on the most basic of subjects, they seem unable to have an honest conversation.

(closed, thread got too big)

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"So I posted this yesterday after seeing people endlessly quoting the £18bn a year/£380m a week/£55m a day figure which is pretty much the cornerstone of the leave campaign.

I felt it was misleading and being deliberately quoted out of context.

Not one single person has posted to defend the use of these figures. I'm starting to think that speaks volumes.

Why is the £18 billion figure mentioned on the full fact website then?

Quote directly from the full fact website clearly says.....

"The UK gets an instant rebate on its EU Membership fee of £5 billion, without which the UK would be liable to pay the sum of £18 billion.

That then gives the £13 billion figure.

The sentence before your quote says: The UK doesn’t pay or "send to Brussels" this higher figure of £18 billion, or anything equivalent per week or per day.

So what is the truth?

(closed, thread got too big)

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"So Centaur, for the sake of clarity (which was the purpose of the thread in the first place) are my sine in the initial post about right or not?

Would the net saving if we left the EU be about £8bn or £9bn or would it be the full £18bn?

You see the thing is I agree with poster above. I think the leave campaign is losing voters hand over fist because on the most basic of subjects, they seem unable to have an honest conversation. "

But Centaur or ukip or outers etc didn't just invent the 18 or 13 billion figures did they? They are from the government and he said if you read the website/figures you will find the rebates we get from that. What is a lie or misleading?

(closed, thread got too big)

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"So I posted this yesterday after seeing people endlessly quoting the £18bn a year/£380m a week/£55m a day figure which is pretty much the cornerstone of the leave campaign.

I felt it was misleading and being deliberately quoted out of context.

Not one single person has posted to defend the use of these figures. I'm starting to think that speaks volumes.

Why is the £18 billion figure mentioned on the full fact website then?

Quote directly from the full fact website clearly says.....

"The UK gets an instant rebate on its EU Membership fee of £5 billion, without which the UK would be liable to pay the sum of £18 billion.

That then gives the £13 billion figure.

The sentence before your quote says: The UK doesn’t pay or "send to Brussels" this higher figure of £18 billion, or anything equivalent per week or per day.

So what is the truth?"

Let's start with the UKIP stooge's lie first. In the John Major thread he wrote: "The UK paid the EU £18 billion in 2015". You can find that for yourself:

https://www.fabswingers.com/forum/lounge/499482

The fact is that the UK has never paid that much. As it says on the full facts web site: "The UK doesn’t pay or "send to Brussels" this higher figure of £18 billion, or anything equivalent per week or per day."

The UK does not make this mythical payment and then wait for money to come back. It doesn't matter if it's stated on a daily, weekly, monthly or annual basis, it's simply a lie.

The amount that leaves the treasury, on a monthly basis, is about £1.1 billion (£13 billion/12). That is the amount that is paid - I think 99.999% of people would say the amount you pay for something is the amount of money you spend not some arbitrarily higher amount that doesn't come out of your bank account. The 0.001% are economically illiterate or economic with the truth or, in the case of UKIP stooges, both.

I've asked our UKIP rep on many occasions to tell us when the treasury actually paid £18 bn to Europe. He's never been able to answer that because of course it's never happened. Not once.

I've asked Centaur UKIP when he thinks we will be liable to pay that amount, assuming we have to in the future. He's never answered that either.

If he tried to I'd expect another load of UKIP lies.

(closed, thread got too big)

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

2 days to go

Remember Vote SNP 5th May boys n girls

SNP

(closed, thread got too big)

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By *ethnmelvCouple
over a year ago

Cardiff

Given that the Government expects to spend £345bn across Health, Pensions, Education, Local Services, Defence, etc the 3.4% that will be spent on EU contributions is not exactly massive.

None of us could ever comprehend the size of these amounts, but realistically if you compare this to say earning £1500 per month after tax, would you make such a huge decision based on just £50 a month saving?

Lets not get drawn into the amount we pay, it is not material to our society. What is material are the other arguments.

(closed, thread got too big)

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"So I posted this yesterday after seeing people endlessly quoting the £18bn a year/£380m a week/£55m a day figure which is pretty much the cornerstone of the leave campaign.

I felt it was misleading and being deliberately quoted out of context.

Not one single person has posted to defend the use of these figures. I'm starting to think that speaks volumes.

Why is the £18 billion figure mentioned on the full fact website then?

Quote directly from the full fact website clearly says.....

"The UK gets an instant rebate on its EU Membership fee of £5 billion, without which the UK would be liable to pay the sum of £18 billion.

That then gives the £13 billion figure.

The sentence before your quote says: The UK doesn’t pay or "send to Brussels" this higher figure of £18 billion, or anything equivalent per week or per day.

So what is the truth?

Let's start with the UKIP stooge's lie first. In the John Major thread he wrote: "The UK paid the EU £18 billion in 2015". You can find that for yourself:

https://www.fabswingers.com/forum/lounge/499482

The UK does not make this mythical payment and then wait for money to come back. It doesn't matter if it's stated on a daily, weekly, monthly or annual basis, it's simply a lie.

I've asked our UKIP rep on many occasions to tell us when the treasury actually paid £18 bn to Europe. He's never been able to answer that because of course it's never happened. Not once.

I've asked Centaur UKIP when he thinks we will be liable to pay that amount, assuming we have to in the future. He's never answered that either.

If he tried to I'd expect another load of UKIP lies.

You seem to interpret things the way you want to.

Now I don't particularly support any party but could you tell me what is so bad about UKIP?

You seem to have a bit of an unhealthy obsession with them. Could it be that you're in denial and secretly want to 'come out' as a supporter but aren't brave enough?

(closed, thread got too big)

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"So I posted this yesterday after seeing people endlessly quoting the £18bn a year/£380m a week/£55m a day figure which is pretty much the cornerstone of the leave campaign.

I felt it was misleading and being deliberately quoted out of context.

Not one single person has posted to defend the use of these figures. I'm starting to think that speaks volumes.

Why is the £18 billion figure mentioned on the full fact website then?

Quote directly from the full fact website clearly says.....

"The UK gets an instant rebate on its EU Membership fee of £5 billion, without which the UK would be liable to pay the sum of £18 billion.

That then gives the £13 billion figure.

The sentence before your quote says: The UK doesn’t pay or "send to Brussels" this higher figure of £18 billion, or anything equivalent per week or per day.

So what is the truth?

Let's start with the UKIP stooge's lie first. In the John Major thread he wrote: "The UK paid the EU £18 billion in 2015". You can find that for yourself:

https://www.fabswingers.com/forum/lounge/499482

The UK does not make this mythical payment and then wait for money to come back. It doesn't matter if it's stated on a daily, weekly, monthly or annual basis, it's simply a lie.

I've asked our UKIP rep on many occasions to tell us when the treasury actually paid £18 bn to Europe. He's never been able to answer that because of course it's never happened. Not once.

I've asked Centaur UKIP when he thinks we will be liable to pay that amount, assuming we have to in the future. He's never answered that either.

If he tried to I'd expect another load of UKIP lies.

You seem to interpret things the way you want to.

Now I don't particularly support any party but could you tell me what is so bad about UKIP?

You seem to have a bit of an unhealthy obsession with them. Could it be that you're in denial and secretly want to 'come out' as a supporter but aren't brave enough?

I despise people who habitually rely on telling lies. That includes those liars who admit to being UKIP supporters and a selection of those that don't.

It's hard to tell the difference at the moment because UKIP activists have been instructed not to reveal their loyalties when campaigning.

(closed, thread got too big)

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"So I posted this yesterday after seeing people endlessly quoting the £18bn a year/£380m a week/£55m a day figure which is pretty much the cornerstone of the leave campaign.

I felt it was misleading and being deliberately quoted out of context.

Not one single person has posted to defend the use of these figures. I'm starting to think that speaks volumes.

Why is the £18 billion figure mentioned on the full fact website then?

Quote directly from the full fact website clearly says.....

"The UK gets an instant rebate on its EU Membership fee of £5 billion, without which the UK would be liable to pay the sum of £18 billion.

That then gives the £13 billion figure.

The sentence before your quote says: The UK doesn’t pay or "send to Brussels" this higher figure of £18 billion, or anything equivalent per week or per day.

So what is the truth?

Let's start with the UKIP stooge's lie first. In the John Major thread he wrote: "The UK paid the EU £18 billion in 2015". You can find that for yourself:

https://www.fabswingers.com/forum/lounge/499482

The UK does not make this mythical payment and then wait for money to come back. It doesn't matter if it's stated on a daily, weekly, monthly or annual basis, it's simply a lie.

I've asked our UKIP rep on many occasions to tell us when the treasury actually paid £18 bn to Europe. He's never been able to answer that because of course it's never happened. Not once.

I've asked Centaur UKIP when he thinks we will be liable to pay that amount, assuming we have to in the future. He's never answered that either.

If he tried to I'd expect another load of UKIP lies.

You seem to interpret things the way you want to.

Now I don't particularly support any party but could you tell me what is so bad about UKIP?

You seem to have a bit of an unhealthy obsession with them. Could it be that you're in denial and secretly want to 'come out' as a supporter but aren't brave enough?

I despise people who habitually rely on telling lies. That includes those liars who admit to being UKIP supporters and a selection of those that don't.

It's hard to tell the difference at the moment because UKIP activists have been instructed not to reveal their loyalties when campaigning."

And yet you follow people who habitually tell lies? Cameron, Osbourne, Blair, Mandelson, Obama etc etc? Fair enough

(closed, thread got too big)

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By *horehouseCouple
over a year ago

dissatisfied

[Removed by poster at 03/05/16 15:33:13]

(closed, thread got too big)

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By *horehouseCouple
over a year ago

dissatisfied

"So I posted this yesterday after seeing people endlessly quoting the £18bn a year/£380m a week/£55m a day figure which is pretty much the cornerstone of the leave campaign.

I felt it was misleading and being deliberately quoted out of context.

Not one single person has posted to defend the use of these figures. I'm starting to think that speaks volumes.

Why is the £18 billion figure mentioned on the full fact website then?

Quote directly from the full fact website clearly says.....

"The UK gets an instant rebate on its EU Membership fee of £5 billion, without which the UK would be liable to pay the sum of £18 billion.

That then gives the £13 billion figure.

The sentence before your quote says: The UK doesn’t pay or "send to Brussels" this higher figure of £18 billion, or anything equivalent per week or per day.

So what is the truth?

Let's start with the UKIP stooge's lie first. In the John Major thread he wrote: "The UK paid the EU £18 billion in 2015". You can find that for yourself:

https://www.fabswingers.com/forum/lounge/499482

The UK does not make this mythical payment and then wait for money to come back. It doesn't matter if it's stated on a daily, weekly, monthly or annual basis, it's simply a lie.

I've asked our UKIP rep on many occasions to tell us when the treasury actually paid £18 bn to Europe. He's never been able to answer that because of course it's never happened. Not once.

I've asked Centaur UKIP when he thinks we will be liable to pay that amount, assuming we have to in the future. He's never answered that either.

If he tried to I'd expect another load of UKIP lies.

You seem to interpret things the way you want to.

Now I don't particularly support any party but could you tell me what is so bad about UKIP?

You seem to have a bit of an unhealthy obsession with them. Could it be that you're in denial and secretly want to 'come out' as a supporter but aren't brave enough?

I despise people who habitually rely on telling lies. That includes those liars who admit to being UKIP supporters and a selection of those that don't.

It's hard to tell the difference at the moment because UKIP activists have been instructed not to reveal their loyalties when campaigning.

And yet you follow people who habitually tell lies? Cameron, Osbourne, Blair, Mandelson, Obama etc etc? Fair enough

"
so these politicians you don't trust you are going to give even greater power to rule by voting OUT ...that just .make sense does it surly if you don't trust them it would be better to vote IN .

(closed, thread got too big)

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By *entaur_UKMan
over a year ago

Cannock

"So I posted this yesterday after seeing people endlessly quoting the £18bn a year/£380m a week/£55m a day figure which is pretty much the cornerstone of the leave campaign.

I felt it was misleading and being deliberately quoted out of context.

Not one single person has posted to defend the use of these figures. I'm starting to think that speaks volumes.

Why is the £18 billion figure mentioned on the full fact website then?

Quote directly from the full fact website clearly says.....

"The UK gets an instant rebate on its EU Membership fee of £5 billion, without which the UK would be liable to pay the sum of £18 billion.

That then gives the £13 billion figure.

The sentence before your quote says: The UK doesn’t pay or "send to Brussels" this higher figure of £18 billion, or anything equivalent per week or per day.

As George Galloway said on the daily politics programme the other week, the referendum campaign is a binary choice, it's either leave or remain. You are either for in or you are for out of the EU. Party politics really doesn't come into it, there are elements from a wide range of political parties on both sides of the referendum campaign. You must be a very sad individual indeed to see this EU referendum as a Ukip party political issue.

I have quoted what is on the full fact website, so no misrepresenting of the truth going on at all, you like to quote facts and figures but as per usual on these EU threads when a fact or figure comes along that you don't like we all get to see you throw your toys out of your pram. It really is very amusing.

(closed, thread got too big)

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"So I posted this yesterday after seeing people endlessly quoting the £18bn a year/£380m a week/£55m a day figure which is pretty much the cornerstone of the leave campaign.

I felt it was misleading and being deliberately quoted out of context.

Not one single person has posted to defend the use of these figures. I'm starting to think that speaks volumes.

Why is the £18 billion figure mentioned on the full fact website then?

Quote directly from the full fact website clearly says.....

"The UK gets an instant rebate on its EU Membership fee of £5 billion, without which the UK would be liable to pay the sum of £18 billion.

That then gives the £13 billion figure.

The sentence before your quote says: The UK doesn’t pay or "send to Brussels" this higher figure of £18 billion, or anything equivalent per week or per day.

So what is the truth?

Let's start with the UKIP stooge's lie first. In the John Major thread he wrote: "The UK paid the EU £18 billion in 2015". You can find that for yourself:

https://www.fabswingers.com/forum/lounge/499482

The UK does not make this mythical payment and then wait for money to come back. It doesn't matter if it's stated on a daily, weekly, monthly or annual basis, it's simply a lie.

I've asked our UKIP rep on many occasions to tell us when the treasury actually paid £18 bn to Europe. He's never been able to answer that because of course it's never happened. Not once.

I've asked Centaur UKIP when he thinks we will be liable to pay that amount, assuming we have to in the future. He's never answered that either.

If he tried to I'd expect another load of UKIP lies.

You seem to interpret things the way you want to.

Now I don't particularly support any party but could you tell me what is so bad about UKIP?

You seem to have a bit of an unhealthy obsession with them. Could it be that you're in denial and secretly want to 'come out' as a supporter but aren't brave enough?

I despise people who habitually rely on telling lies. That includes those liars who admit to being UKIP supporters and a selection of those that don't.

It's hard to tell the difference at the moment because UKIP activists have been instructed not to reveal their loyalties when campaigning.

And yet you follow people who habitually tell lies? Cameron, Osbourne, Blair, Mandelson, Obama etc etc? Fair enough

You can check very thoroughly through all my past posts. I've never said I follow any of those people. But then again don't let the truth bother you.

You accusing other politicians of telling lies does not make the UKIP/Brexit claim any more honest. It's still a lie no matter how much of a smoke screen you and your mates throw up.

(closed, thread got too big)

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By *entaur_UKMan
over a year ago

Cannock

"So Centaur, for the sake of clarity (which was the purpose of the thread in the first place) are my sine in the initial post about right or not?

Would the net saving if we left the EU be about £8bn or £9bn or would it be the full £18bn?

You see the thing is I agree with poster above. I think the leave campaign is losing voters hand over fist because on the most basic of subjects, they seem unable to have an honest conversation. "

First of all you deleted the OP. If the 18 billion figure was irrelevant it would not be mentioned on the full fact website. It really doesn't matter to me if we make a nett saving of 18 billion or the lower figure you posted of 8 billion. Fact is we will make a nett saving either way by leaving the EU. We pay far too much to the EU in membership fees in my opinion for what they do. It is money wasted which would be far better spent here in the UK on things such as the Nhs, schools, roads, etc.

Lastly I think the remain campaign is losing voters hand over fist with project fear, project pessimism and bully boy tactics from the likes of Obama and Hollande, as the latest ICM poll showed on Sunday, with Leave now in the lead on 46% to remain on 43%.

(closed, thread got too big)

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"So I posted this yesterday after seeing people endlessly quoting the £18bn a year/£380m a week/£55m a day figure which is pretty much the cornerstone of the leave campaign.

I felt it was misleading and being deliberately quoted out of context.

Not one single person has posted to defend the use of these figures. I'm starting to think that speaks volumes.

Why is the £18 billion figure mentioned on the full fact website then?

Quote directly from the full fact website clearly says.....

"The UK gets an instant rebate on its EU Membership fee of £5 billion, without which the UK would be liable to pay the sum of £18 billion.

That then gives the £13 billion figure.

The sentence before your quote says: The UK doesn’t pay or "send to Brussels" this higher figure of £18 billion, or anything equivalent per week or per day.

I see it as an issue for honest debate, something which you are totally unable to achieve. I feel sad for you, you must be really insecure to have to lie on such a regular basis.

(closed, thread got too big)

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By *entaur_UKMan
over a year ago

Cannock

"So I posted this yesterday after seeing people endlessly quoting the £18bn a year/£380m a week/£55m a day figure which is pretty much the cornerstone of the leave campaign.

I felt it was misleading and being deliberately quoted out of context.

Not one single person has posted to defend the use of these figures. I'm starting to think that speaks volumes.

Why is the £18 billion figure mentioned on the full fact website then?

Quote directly from the full fact website clearly says.....

"The UK gets an instant rebate on its EU Membership fee of £5 billion, without which the UK would be liable to pay the sum of £18 billion.

That then gives the £13 billion figure.

The sentence before your quote says: The UK doesn’t pay or "send to Brussels" this higher figure of £18 billion, or anything equivalent per week or per day.

So what is the truth?"

The truth is without the instant rebate of 5 billion the UK would be liable to pay the EU the sum of 18 billion.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *entaur_UKMan
over a year ago

Cannock

"So Centaur, for the sake of clarity (which was the purpose of the thread in the first place) are my sine in the initial post about right or not?

Would the net saving if we left the EU be about £8bn or £9bn or would it be the full £18bn?

You see the thing is I agree with poster above. I think the leave campaign is losing voters hand over fist because on the most basic of subjects, they seem unable to have an honest conversation.

There is no lie or misleading, what I posted is on the independent full fact website, which the BBC use to check EU facts and figures on.

(closed, thread got too big)

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"So I posted this yesterday after seeing people endlessly quoting the £18bn a year/£380m a week/£55m a day figure which is pretty much the cornerstone of the leave campaign.

I felt it was misleading and being deliberately quoted out of context.

Not one single person has posted to defend the use of these figures. I'm starting to think that speaks volumes.

Why is the £18 billion figure mentioned on the full fact website then?

Quote directly from the full fact website clearly says.....

"The UK gets an instant rebate on its EU Membership fee of £5 billion, without which the UK would be liable to pay the sum of £18 billion.

That then gives the £13 billion figure.

The sentence before your quote says: The UK doesn’t pay or "send to Brussels" this higher figure of £18 billion, or anything equivalent per week or per day.

So what is the truth?

The truth is without the instant rebate of 5 billion the UK would be liable to pay the EU the sum of 18 billion.

That was just like watching the fairy queen in Cinderella the way you magicked up that instant rebate. All the missed out was a shower of glitter and a huge puff of smoke - pouff.

The next time you buy something that is going to cost you £13 do take great care to shove £18 into the vendor's hands and claim your instant fiver back so you can tell everyone it cost you the higher someone. Thank God people like you have no responsibility for the treasury.

(closed, thread got too big)

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"So Centaur, for the sake of clarity (which was the purpose of the thread in the first place) are my sine in the initial post about right or not?

Would the net saving if we left the EU be about £8bn or £9bn or would it be the full £18bn?

You see the thing is I agree with poster above. I think the leave campaign is losing voters hand over fist because on the most basic of subjects, they seem unable to have an honest conversation.

There is no lie or misleading, what I posted is on the independent full fact website, which the BBC use to check EU facts and figures on.

Oh poor fairy queen, you missed out the bit that said "The UK doesn’t pay or "send to Brussels" this higher figure of £18 billion, or anything equivalent per week or per day."

(closed, thread got too big)

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By *entaur_UKMan
over a year ago

Cannock

"So I posted this yesterday after seeing people endlessly quoting the £18bn a year/£380m a week/£55m a day figure which is pretty much the cornerstone of the leave campaign.

I felt it was misleading and being deliberately quoted out of context.

Not one single person has posted to defend the use of these figures. I'm starting to think that speaks volumes.

Why is the £18 billion figure mentioned on the full fact website then?

Quote directly from the full fact website clearly says.....

"The UK gets an instant rebate on its EU Membership fee of £5 billion, without which the UK would be liable to pay the sum of £18 billion.

That then gives the £13 billion figure.

The sentence before your quote says: The UK doesn’t pay or "send to Brussels" this higher figure of £18 billion, or anything equivalent per week or per day.

So what is the truth?

Let's start with the UKIP stooge's lie first. In the John Major thread he wrote: "The UK paid the EU £18 billion in 2015". You can find that for yourself:

https://www.fabswingers.com/forum/lounge/499482

The UK does not make this mythical payment and then wait for money to come back. It doesn't matter if it's stated on a daily, weekly, monthly or annual basis, it's simply a lie.

I've asked our UKIP rep on many occasions to tell us when the treasury actually paid £18 bn to Europe. He's never been able to answer that because of course it's never happened. Not once.

I've asked Centaur UKIP when he thinks we will be liable to pay that amount, assuming we have to in the future. He's never answered that either.

If he tried to I'd expect another load of UKIP lies.

I did answer your question several times on the John Major thread. The answer is the UK would be liable to pay the EU the sum of 18 billion if it wasn't for the instant 5 billion rebate.

Just last week you posted on another EU thread that we didn't pay 13 billion and the figure was much lower. You seem to have changed your mind now you are posting the 13 billion figure like it's gospel.

(closed, thread got too big)

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By *entaur_UKMan
over a year ago

Cannock

"So I posted this yesterday after seeing people endlessly quoting the £18bn a year/£380m a week/£55m a day figure which is pretty much the cornerstone of the leave campaign.

I felt it was misleading and being deliberately quoted out of context.

Not one single person has posted to defend the use of these figures. I'm starting to think that speaks volumes.

Why is the £18 billion figure mentioned on the full fact website then?

Quote directly from the full fact website clearly says.....

"The UK gets an instant rebate on its EU Membership fee of £5 billion, without which the UK would be liable to pay the sum of £18 billion.

That then gives the £13 billion figure.

The sentence before your quote says: The UK doesn’t pay or "send to Brussels" this higher figure of £18 billion, or anything equivalent per week or per day.

So what is the truth?

Let's start with the UKIP stooge's lie first. In the John Major thread he wrote: "The UK paid the EU £18 billion in 2015". You can find that for yourself:

https://www.fabswingers.com/forum/lounge/499482

The UK does not make this mythical payment and then wait for money to come back. It doesn't matter if it's stated on a daily, weekly, monthly or annual basis, it's simply a lie.

I've asked our UKIP rep on many occasions to tell us when the treasury actually paid £18 bn to Europe. He's never been able to answer that because of course it's never happened. Not once.

I've asked Centaur UKIP when he thinks we will be liable to pay that amount, assuming we have to in the future. He's never answered that either.

If he tried to I'd expect another load of UKIP lies.

You seem to interpret things the way you want to.

Now I don't particularly support any party but could you tell me what is so bad about UKIP?

You seem to have a bit of an unhealthy obsession with them. Could it be that you're in denial and secretly want to 'come out' as a supporter but aren't brave enough?

(closed, thread got too big)

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By *entaur_UKMan
over a year ago

Cannock

"So I posted this yesterday after seeing people endlessly quoting the £18bn a year/£380m a week/£55m a day figure which is pretty much the cornerstone of the leave campaign.

I felt it was misleading and being deliberately quoted out of context.

Not one single person has posted to defend the use of these figures. I'm starting to think that speaks volumes.

Why is the £18 billion figure mentioned on the full fact website then?

Quote directly from the full fact website clearly says.....

"The UK gets an instant rebate on its EU Membership fee of £5 billion, without which the UK would be liable to pay the sum of £18 billion.

That then gives the £13 billion figure.

The sentence before your quote says: The UK doesn’t pay or "send to Brussels" this higher figure of £18 billion, or anything equivalent per week or per day.

I see it as an issue for honest debate, something which you are totally unable to achieve. I feel sad for you, you must be really insecure to have to lie on such a regular basis."

You are deluded. Did you miss your daily dose of medication today?

(closed, thread got too big)

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"So I posted this yesterday after seeing people endlessly quoting the £18bn a year/£380m a week/£55m a day figure which is pretty much the cornerstone of the leave campaign.

I felt it was misleading and being deliberately quoted out of context.

Not one single person has posted to defend the use of these figures. I'm starting to think that speaks volumes.

Why is the £18 billion figure mentioned on the full fact website then?

Quote directly from the full fact website clearly says.....

"The UK gets an instant rebate on its EU Membership fee of £5 billion, without which the UK would be liable to pay the sum of £18 billion.

That then gives the £13 billion figure.

The sentence before your quote says: The UK doesn’t pay or "send to Brussels" this higher figure of £18 billion, or anything equivalent per week or per day.

So what is the truth?

Let's start with the UKIP stooge's lie first. In the John Major thread he wrote: "The UK paid the EU £18 billion in 2015". You can find that for yourself:

https://www.fabswingers.com/forum/lounge/499482

The UK does not make this mythical payment and then wait for money to come back. It doesn't matter if it's stated on a daily, weekly, monthly or annual basis, it's simply a lie.

I've asked our UKIP rep on many occasions to tell us when the treasury actually paid £18 bn to Europe. He's never been able to answer that because of course it's never happened. Not once.

I've asked Centaur UKIP when he thinks we will be liable to pay that amount, assuming we have to in the future. He's never answered that either.

If he tried to I'd expect another load of UKIP lies.

I did answer your question several times on the John Major thread. The answer is the UK would be liable to pay the EU the sum of 18 billion if it wasn't for the instant 5 billion rebate.

There you go again - pouff the instant rebate. So there is never a year when £18 bn leaves the treasury to go to the EU. Your statement in the John Major thread that the country paid £18bn was untrue wasn't it? It's important becasue if we can't trust you UKIPers over the odd £5bn or so, what can we trust you with?

(closed, thread got too big)

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

(closed, thread got too big)

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By *entaur_UKMan
over a year ago

Cannock

"So I posted this yesterday after seeing people endlessly quoting the £18bn a year/£380m a week/£55m a day figure which is pretty much the cornerstone of the leave campaign.

I felt it was misleading and being deliberately quoted out of context.

Not one single person has posted to defend the use of these figures. I'm starting to think that speaks volumes.

Why is the £18 billion figure mentioned on the full fact website then?

Quote directly from the full fact website clearly says.....

"The UK gets an instant rebate on its EU Membership fee of £5 billion, without which the UK would be liable to pay the sum of £18 billion.

That then gives the £13 billion figure.

The sentence before your quote says: The UK doesn’t pay or "send to Brussels" this higher figure of £18 billion, or anything equivalent per week or per day.

So what is the truth?

The truth is without the instant rebate of 5 billion the UK would be liable to pay the EU the sum of 18 billion.

That was just like watching the fairy queen in Cinderella the way you magicked up that instant rebate. All the missed out was a shower of glitter and a huge puff of smoke - pouff.

There you go with the 13 figure again, changed your tune since last week when you insisted to everyone on the forum the figure was lower than 13.

(closed, thread got too big)

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"So I posted this yesterday after seeing people endlessly quoting the £18bn a year/£380m a week/£55m a day figure which is pretty much the cornerstone of the leave campaign.

I felt it was misleading and being deliberately quoted out of context.

Not one single person has posted to defend the use of these figures. I'm starting to think that speaks volumes.

Why is the £18 billion figure mentioned on the full fact website then?

Quote directly from the full fact website clearly says.....

"The UK gets an instant rebate on its EU Membership fee of £5 billion, without which the UK would be liable to pay the sum of £18 billion.

That then gives the £13 billion figure.

The sentence before your quote says: The UK doesn’t pay or "send to Brussels" this higher figure of £18 billion, or anything equivalent per week or per day.

I see it as an issue for honest debate, something which you are totally unable to achieve. I feel sad for you, you must be really insecure to have to lie on such a regular basis.

You are deluded. Did you miss your daily dose of medication today? "

Oh I agree, one would have to be deluded to expect even the slightest smattering of the truth from you. No amount of medication would help with that unless we could get sodium pentathiol into you.

(closed, thread got too big)

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"So I posted this yesterday after seeing people endlessly quoting the £18bn a year/£380m a week/£55m a day figure which is pretty much the cornerstone of the leave campaign.

I felt it was misleading and being deliberately quoted out of context.

Not one single person has posted to defend the use of these figures. I'm starting to think that speaks volumes.

Why is the £18 billion figure mentioned on the full fact website then?

Quote directly from the full fact website clearly says.....

"The UK gets an instant rebate on its EU Membership fee of £5 billion, without which the UK would be liable to pay the sum of £18 billion.

That then gives the £13 billion figure.

The sentence before your quote says: The UK doesn’t pay or "send to Brussels" this higher figure of £18 billion, or anything equivalent per week or per day.

So what is the truth?

The truth is without the instant rebate of 5 billion the UK would be liable to pay the EU the sum of 18 billion.

That was just like watching the fairy queen in Cinderella the way you magicked up that instant rebate. All the missed out was a shower of glitter and a huge puff of smoke - pouff.

There you go with the 13 figure again, changed your tune since last week when you insisted to everyone on the forum the figure was lower than 13. "

I'm using the figures you've been quoting from the full facts web site.

It's only worth going further with you if you first work out that full facts said: The UK doesn’t pay or "send to Brussels" this higher figure of £18 billion, or anything equivalent per week or per day.

The next step is even more complicated for you because you have to be able to cope with the different financial years operated by the UK and EU. I fear that may take a lifetime to explain and frankly it's not worth the effort.

(closed, thread got too big)

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By *entaur_UKMan
over a year ago

Cannock

George Osborne's treasury report was complete rubbish. It is economically illiterate to do a economic forecast for the next 14 years upto the year 2030. George Osborne knows he won't be the next leader of the Conservative party when he loses this referendum on June 23rd, so I hear Mystic Meg is now taking him under her wing and teaching him how to read a crystal ball and do Tarot cards.

(closed, thread got too big)

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By *entaur_UKMan
over a year ago

Cannock

"So I posted this yesterday after seeing people endlessly quoting the £18bn a year/£380m a week/£55m a day figure which is pretty much the cornerstone of the leave campaign.

I felt it was misleading and being deliberately quoted out of context.

Not one single person has posted to defend the use of these figures. I'm starting to think that speaks volumes.

Why is the £18 billion figure mentioned on the full fact website then?

Quote directly from the full fact website clearly says.....

"The UK gets an instant rebate on its EU Membership fee of £5 billion, without which the UK would be liable to pay the sum of £18 billion.

That then gives the £13 billion figure.

The sentence before your quote says: The UK doesn’t pay or "send to Brussels" this higher figure of £18 billion, or anything equivalent per week or per day.

So what is the truth?

The truth is without the instant rebate of 5 billion the UK would be liable to pay the EU the sum of 18 billion.

That was just like watching the fairy queen in Cinderella the way you magicked up that instant rebate. All the missed out was a shower of glitter and a huge puff of smoke - pouff.

There you go with the 13 figure again, changed your tune since last week when you insisted to everyone on the forum the figure was lower than 13.

I'm using the figures you've been quoting from the full facts web site.

You know you were wrong to say the figure was lower than 13 billion last week, you've only changed your tune since I quoted the figures from the full fact website. That is why you can't explain it because you were wrong.

(closed, thread got too big)

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"So I posted this yesterday after seeing people endlessly quoting the £18bn a year/£380m a week/£55m a day figure which is pretty much the cornerstone of the leave campaign.

I felt it was misleading and being deliberately quoted out of context.

Not one single person has posted to defend the use of these figures. I'm starting to think that speaks volumes.

Why is the £18 billion figure mentioned on the full fact website then?

Quote directly from the full fact website clearly says.....

"The UK gets an instant rebate on its EU Membership fee of £5 billion, without which the UK would be liable to pay the sum of £18 billion.

That then gives the £13 billion figure.

The sentence before your quote says: The UK doesn’t pay or "send to Brussels" this higher figure of £18 billion, or anything equivalent per week or per day.

So what is the truth?

The truth is without the instant rebate of 5 billion the UK would be liable to pay the EU the sum of 18 billion.

That was just like watching the fairy queen in Cinderella the way you magicked up that instant rebate. All the missed out was a shower of glitter and a huge puff of smoke - pouff.

There you go with the 13 figure again, changed your tune since last week when you insisted to everyone on the forum the figure was lower than 13.

I'm using the figures you've been quoting from the full facts web site.

According to the OBR (December 2015) the net and gross payments to the EU are estimated to be:

2014/15: £8.7 bn / £13.4 bn

2015/16: £9.6 bn / £13.7 bn

2016/17: £10.6 bn/ £15.1 bn

2017/18: £7.9 bn / £12.6 bn

2018/19: £9.4 bn / £14.4 bn

2019/20: £9.7 bn / £15.0 bn

After this year (2016/17) the estimated nett contribution falls. As I pointed out to you last time round, 10.6 is bigger than 9.7

If you don't believe the numbers, go argue with the OBR. Or get your UKIP master to train you up about them.

As they say at full facts said: The UK doesn’t pay or "send to Brussels" this higher figure of £18 billion, or anything equivalent per week or per day.

(closed, thread got too big)

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By *ethnmelvCouple
over a year ago

Cardiff

Why continue the argument when it is only 3% of UK Government spend? Surely it would be more enlightening to hear the other arguments for staying or leaving. Cost is not material enough in my mind to vote to leave.

(closed, thread got too big)

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By *adyboy-Daddy OP Couple
over a year ago

Andover

"It really doesn't matter to me if we make a nett saving of 18 billion or the lower figure you posted of 8 billion. . "

BOOM! And there it is, the crux of the issue.

Of course it matters whether the net saving is £18bn or £8bn!

If it's only £8bn saved then based on what Norway and Switzerland pay to the EU per head even though they are not even members, we will be not one penny better off out.

If it's £18Bn saved then if we get the same kind of deal they have you will have £10bn to build hospitals with.

And that's the problem for Brexit.

If we save £18bn it makes economic sense.

If we only £8 or £9bn it does not. So tell me again, how much will we save in real money?

(closed, thread got too big)

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Why continue the argument when it is only 3% of UK Government spend? Surely it would be more enlightening to hear the other arguments for staying or leaving. Cost is not material enough in my mind to vote to leave."

Not wanting to open up a second front on this, but government spend is planned to be about £760 bn and £13 bn is about 1.7% not 3.5% (that's also in line with it being about 0.65% of GDP), but I agree with you totally that it's not material. However, it would be nice if UKIPers are going to rant on about how much it costs for them to do it honestly.

(closed, thread got too big)

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By *entaur_UKMan
over a year ago

Cannock

"So I posted this yesterday after seeing people endlessly quoting the £18bn a year/£380m a week/£55m a day figure which is pretty much the cornerstone of the leave campaign.

I felt it was misleading and being deliberately quoted out of context.

Not one single person has posted to defend the use of these figures. I'm starting to think that speaks volumes.

Why is the £18 billion figure mentioned on the full fact website then?

Quote directly from the full fact website clearly says.....

"The UK gets an instant rebate on its EU Membership fee of £5 billion, without which the UK would be liable to pay the sum of £18 billion.

That then gives the £13 billion figure.

The sentence before your quote says: The UK doesn’t pay or "send to Brussels" this higher figure of £18 billion, or anything equivalent per week or per day.

So what is the truth?

Let's start with the UKIP stooge's lie first. In the John Major thread he wrote: "The UK paid the EU £18 billion in 2015". You can find that for yourself:

https://www.fabswingers.com/forum/lounge/499482

The UK does not make this mythical payment and then wait for money to come back. It doesn't matter if it's stated on a daily, weekly, monthly or annual basis, it's simply a lie.

I've asked our UKIP rep on many occasions to tell us when the treasury actually paid £18 bn to Europe. He's never been able to answer that because of course it's never happened. Not once.

I've asked Centaur UKIP when he thinks we will be liable to pay that amount, assuming we have to in the future. He's never answered that either.

If he tried to I'd expect another load of UKIP lies.

You seem to interpret things the way you want to.

Now I don't particularly support any party but could you tell me what is so bad about UKIP?

You seem to have a bit of an unhealthy obsession with them. Could it be that you're in denial and secretly want to 'come out' as a supporter but aren't brave enough?

Shushhhhhh, don't tell anyone but Kate Hoey, Gisela Stuart and John Mills from Labour are secret UKip supporters, Boris Johnson, Michael Gove, Chris Greyling, Iain Duncan Smith, Pritti Patel and half of the Conservative government are secret UKip activists, George Galloway is a UKip activist and Baroness Jones from the Green party is also a secret ukip activist.

Nah, of course it's all complete nonsense but they are all campaigning to leave the EU.

(closed, thread got too big)

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By *adyboy-Daddy OP Couple
over a year ago

Andover

"It really doesn't matter to me if we make a nett saving of 18 billion or the lower figure you posted of 8 billion. .

BOOM! And there it is, the crux of the issue.

Of course it matters whether the net saving is £18bn or £8bn!

If it's only £8bn saved then based on what Norway and Switzerland pay to the EU per head even though they are not even members, we will be not one penny better off out.

If it's £18Bn saved then if we get the same kind of deal they have you will have £10bn to build hospitals with.

And that's the problem for Brexit.

If we save £18bn it makes economic sense.

If we only £8 or £9bn it does not. So tell me again, how much will we save in real money?

So no answer to this then Centaur? Thought not.

(closed, thread got too big)

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"So I posted this yesterday after seeing people endlessly quoting the £18bn a year/£380m a week/£55m a day figure which is pretty much the cornerstone of the leave campaign.

I felt it was misleading and being deliberately quoted out of context.

Not one single person has posted to defend the use of these figures. I'm starting to think that speaks volumes.

Why is the £18 billion figure mentioned on the full fact website then?

Quote directly from the full fact website clearly says.....

"The UK gets an instant rebate on its EU Membership fee of £5 billion, without which the UK would be liable to pay the sum of £18 billion.

That then gives the £13 billion figure.

The sentence before your quote says: The UK doesn’t pay or "send to Brussels" this higher figure of £18 billion, or anything equivalent per week or per day.

So what is the truth?

Let's start with the UKIP stooge's lie first. In the John Major thread he wrote: "The UK paid the EU £18 billion in 2015". You can find that for yourself:

https://www.fabswingers.com/forum/lounge/499482

The UK does not make this mythical payment and then wait for money to come back. It doesn't matter if it's stated on a daily, weekly, monthly or annual basis, it's simply a lie.

I've asked our UKIP rep on many occasions to tell us when the treasury actually paid £18 bn to Europe. He's never been able to answer that because of course it's never happened. Not once.

I've asked Centaur UKIP when he thinks we will be liable to pay that amount, assuming we have to in the future. He's never answered that either.

If he tried to I'd expect another load of UKIP lies.

You seem to interpret things the way you want to.

Now I don't particularly support any party but could you tell me what is so bad about UKIP?

You seem to have a bit of an unhealthy obsession with them. Could it be that you're in denial and secretly want to 'come out' as a supporter but aren't brave enough?

I despise people who habitually rely on telling lies. That includes those liars who admit to being UKIP supporters and a selection of those that don't.

It's hard to tell the difference at the moment because UKIP activists have been instructed not to reveal their loyalties when campaigning.

And yet you follow people who habitually tell lies? Cameron, Osbourne, Blair, Mandelson, Obama etc etc? Fair enough

so these politicians you don't trust you are going to give even greater power to rule by voting OUT ...that just .make sense does it surly if you don't trust them it would be better to vote IN ."

Yes because they then become more accountable and as bad as they are they are better than the knobheads running the EU.

The 275,000 EU citizens who came to live in the UK last year might just agree eh

(closed, thread got too big)

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"So I posted this yesterday after seeing people endlessly quoting the £18bn a year/£380m a week/£55m a day figure which is pretty much the cornerstone of the leave campaign.

I felt it was misleading and being deliberately quoted out of context.

Not one single person has posted to defend the use of these figures. I'm starting to think that speaks volumes.

Why is the £18 billion figure mentioned on the full fact website then?

Quote directly from the full fact website clearly says.....

"The UK gets an instant rebate on its EU Membership fee of £5 billion, without which the UK would be liable to pay the sum of £18 billion.

That then gives the £13 billion figure.

The sentence before your quote says: The UK doesn’t pay or "send to Brussels" this higher figure of £18 billion, or anything equivalent per week or per day.

So what is the truth?

Let's start with the UKIP stooge's lie first. In the John Major thread he wrote: "The UK paid the EU £18 billion in 2015". You can find that for yourself:

https://www.fabswingers.com/forum/lounge/499482

The UK does not make this mythical payment and then wait for money to come back. It doesn't matter if it's stated on a daily, weekly, monthly or annual basis, it's simply a lie.

I've asked our UKIP rep on many occasions to tell us when the treasury actually paid £18 bn to Europe. He's never been able to answer that because of course it's never happened. Not once.

I've asked Centaur UKIP when he thinks we will be liable to pay that amount, assuming we have to in the future. He's never answered that either.

If he tried to I'd expect another load of UKIP lies.

You seem to interpret things the way you want to.

Now I don't particularly support any party but could you tell me what is so bad about UKIP?

You seem to have a bit of an unhealthy obsession with them. Could it be that you're in denial and secretly want to 'come out' as a supporter but aren't brave enough?

Nah, of course it's all complete nonsense but they are all campaigning to leave the EU.

Next you'll be claiming to be a nice middle of the road Tory like the last time you decided to pretend you weren't a UKIPer.

Shhhhhh don't tell anyone about:

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2016/03/01/ukip-brexit-campaigning-evans-farage_n_9357148.html

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/dec/20/ukip-tells-members-dont-go-twitter-nigel-farage

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/ukips-advice-for-members-thinking-of-joining-twitter-and-facebook-just-dont-9937643.html

Are you sure you're allowed out without your minder?

(closed, thread got too big)

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"It really doesn't matter to me if we make a nett saving of 18 billion or the lower figure you posted of 8 billion. .

BOOM! And there it is, the crux of the issue.

Of course it matters whether the net saving is £18bn or £8bn!

If it's only £8bn saved then based on what Norway and Switzerland pay to the EU per head even though they are not even members, we will be not one penny better off out.

If it's £18Bn saved then if we get the same kind of deal they have you will have £10bn to build hospitals with.

And that's the problem for Brexit.

If we save £18bn it makes economic sense.

If we only £8 or £9bn it does not. So tell me again, how much will we save in real money?

So no answer to this then Centaur? Thought not. "

I will. What makes you think we will be anything like Norway or Switzerland?

(closed, thread got too big)

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By *entaur_UKMan
over a year ago

Cannock

"It really doesn't matter to me if we make a nett saving of 18 billion or the lower figure you posted of 8 billion. .

BOOM! And there it is, the crux of the issue.

Of course it matters whether the net saving is £18bn or £8bn!

If it's only £8bn saved then based on what Norway and Switzerland pay to the EU per head even though they are not even members, we will be not one penny better off out.

If it's £18Bn saved then if we get the same kind of deal they have you will have £10bn to build hospitals with.

And that's the problem for Brexit.

If we save £18bn it makes economic sense.

If we only £8 or £9bn it does not. So tell me again, how much will we save in real money?

Nice how you only quoted part of what I posted and then totally misrepresented what I said. That seems to be a recurring habit of people campaigning to stay in the EU though. If it is the lower figure of 8 billion saved and not the 18 billion stated on the full fact website then that is still a nett saving of 8 billion. What Norway or Switzerland do has nothing to do with it, we are not Norway and we are not Switzerland, will will have a unique British deal which is different to theirs. So using your figure of 8 billion we will be 8 billion better off out, that is 8 billion which could be spent on Nhs, hospitals, Doctors surgeries, schools, etc here in the UK. I would also add You cannot put a price on the restoration of our democracy and sovereignty.

(closed, thread got too big)

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By *entaur_UKMan
over a year ago

Cannock

"So I posted this yesterday after seeing people endlessly quoting the £18bn a year/£380m a week/£55m a day figure which is pretty much the cornerstone of the leave campaign.

I felt it was misleading and being deliberately quoted out of context.

Not one single person has posted to defend the use of these figures. I'm starting to think that speaks volumes.

Why is the £18 billion figure mentioned on the full fact website then?

Quote directly from the full fact website clearly says.....

"The UK gets an instant rebate on its EU Membership fee of £5 billion, without which the UK would be liable to pay the sum of £18 billion.

That then gives the £13 billion figure.

The sentence before your quote says: The UK doesn’t pay or "send to Brussels" this higher figure of £18 billion, or anything equivalent per week or per day.

So what is the truth?

The truth is without the instant rebate of 5 billion the UK would be liable to pay the EU the sum of 18 billion.

That was just like watching the fairy queen in Cinderella the way you magicked up that instant rebate. All the missed out was a shower of glitter and a huge puff of smoke - pouff.

There you go with the 13 figure again, changed your tune since last week when you insisted to everyone on the forum the figure was lower than 13.

I'm using the figures you've been quoting from the full facts web site.

According to the OBR (December 2015) the net and gross payments to the EU are estimated to be:

2014/15: £8.7 bn / £13.4 bn

2015/16: £9.6 bn / £13.7 bn

2016/17: £10.6 bn/ £15.1 bn

2017/18: £7.9 bn / £12.6 bn

2018/19: £9.4 bn / £14.4 bn

2019/20: £9.7 bn / £15.0 bn

After this year (2016/17) the estimated nett contribution falls. As I pointed out to you last time round, 10.6 is bigger than 9.7

If you don't believe the numbers, go argue with the OBR. Or get your UKIP master to train you up about them.

As they say at full facts said: The UK doesn’t pay or "send to Brussels" this higher figure of £18 billion, or anything equivalent per week or per day."

No last week you were knocking around a figure of some 11 billion nett saving now you've changed it to 13 billion as highlighted on several of your posts earlier in this thread. So as I said last week you were giving lower figures then and now since I quoted full fact website on the John Major thread you've changed it to 13 billion? You really need to make your mind up which figure you want to stick with.

I also showed on that other thread how the UK payments to the EU are set to rise by some 3 billion over the next 5 years because of under performing and stagnating eurozone and a stronger UK economic recovery which means we usually cop for a bigger bill than expected to compensate other failing eurozone countries. Several newspapers have been reporting on it over the last few months.

(closed, thread got too big)

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By *entaur_UKMan
over a year ago

Cannock

"It really doesn't matter to me if we make a nett saving of 18 billion or the lower figure you posted of 8 billion. .

BOOM! And there it is, the crux of the issue.

Of course it matters whether the net saving is £18bn or £8bn!

If it's only £8bn saved then based on what Norway and Switzerland pay to the EU per head even though they are not even members, we will be not one penny better off out.

If it's £18Bn saved then if we get the same kind of deal they have you will have £10bn to build hospitals with.

And that's the problem for Brexit.

If we save £18bn it makes economic sense.

If we only £8 or £9bn it does not. So tell me again, how much will we save in real money?

So no answer to this then Centaur? Thought not. "

Impatient much????

You gave me a grand total of 15 minutes to reply, some of us on here have other things to do and have lives outside the forum you know. Are you one of those couples on here who throw your toys out the pram when you don't get instant replies to emails?

If you had bothered to check my profile you would have seen I had logged off in that 15 minute period.

(closed, thread got too big)

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"So I posted this yesterday after seeing people endlessly quoting the £18bn a year/£380m a week/£55m a day figure which is pretty much the cornerstone of the leave campaign.

I felt it was misleading and being deliberately quoted out of context.

Not one single person has posted to defend the use of these figures. I'm starting to think that speaks volumes.

Why is the £18 billion figure mentioned on the full fact website then?

Quote directly from the full fact website clearly says.....

"The UK gets an instant rebate on its EU Membership fee of £5 billion, without which the UK would be liable to pay the sum of £18 billion.

That then gives the £13 billion figure.

The sentence before your quote says: The UK doesn’t pay or "send to Brussels" this higher figure of £18 billion, or anything equivalent per week or per day.

So what is the truth?

The truth is without the instant rebate of 5 billion the UK would be liable to pay the EU the sum of 18 billion.

That was just like watching the fairy queen in Cinderella the way you magicked up that instant rebate. All the missed out was a shower of glitter and a huge puff of smoke - pouff.

There you go with the 13 figure again, changed your tune since last week when you insisted to everyone on the forum the figure was lower than 13.

I'm using the figures you've been quoting from the full facts web site.

According to the OBR (December 2015) the net and gross payments to the EU are estimated to be:

2014/15: £8.7 bn / £13.4 bn

2015/16: £9.6 bn / £13.7 bn

2016/17: £10.6 bn/ £15.1 bn

2017/18: £7.9 bn / £12.6 bn

2018/19: £9.4 bn / £14.4 bn

2019/20: £9.7 bn / £15.0 bn

After this year (2016/17) the estimated nett contribution falls. As I pointed out to you last time round, 10.6 is bigger than 9.7

If you don't believe the numbers, go argue with the OBR. Or get your UKIP master to train you up about them.

As they say at full facts said: The UK doesn’t pay or "send to Brussels" this higher figure of £18 billion, or anything equivalent per week or per day.

Those are the figures up there in good old GBP from the OBR according to the UK financial year(the previous numbers were in euros from Eurostat according to the EU financial year but it'll be tooooooo much of a waste of time to explain to you the impact of that). As you can see the £13 bn is up there. No sign whatsoever of £18bn.

Just as a matter of fact, it was me who told you about the full fact stuff, but don't let that trouble you.

So where do you think the OBR hid the £18 bn figure you were telling us they had stated (way back in the John Major thread when you said we paid £18 bn to the EU each year)?

It's always worth repeating the bit of the full facts quote that you deliberately missed out so you can remember it for the future: "The UK doesn’t pay or "send to Brussels" this higher figure of £18 billion, or anything equivalent per week or per day."

(closed, thread got too big)

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By *ethnmelvCouple
over a year ago

Cardiff

I thought I was understating, but felt more comfortable on that side!

(closed, thread got too big)

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By *entaur_UKMan
over a year ago

Cannock

"So I posted this yesterday after seeing people endlessly quoting the £18bn a year/£380m a week/£55m a day figure which is pretty much the cornerstone of the leave campaign.

I felt it was misleading and being deliberately quoted out of context.

Not one single person has posted to defend the use of these figures. I'm starting to think that speaks volumes.

Why is the £18 billion figure mentioned on the full fact website then?

Quote directly from the full fact website clearly says.....

"The UK gets an instant rebate on its EU Membership fee of £5 billion, without which the UK would be liable to pay the sum of £18 billion.

That then gives the £13 billion figure.

The sentence before your quote says: The UK doesn’t pay or "send to Brussels" this higher figure of £18 billion, or anything equivalent per week or per day.

So what is the truth?

Let's start with the UKIP stooge's lie first. In the John Major thread he wrote: "The UK paid the EU £18 billion in 2015". You can find that for yourself:

https://www.fabswingers.com/forum/lounge/499482

The UK does not make this mythical payment and then wait for money to come back. It doesn't matter if it's stated on a daily, weekly, monthly or annual basis, it's simply a lie.

I've asked our UKIP rep on many occasions to tell us when the treasury actually paid £18 bn to Europe. He's never been able to answer that because of course it's never happened. Not once.

I've asked Centaur UKIP when he thinks we will be liable to pay that amount, assuming we have to in the future. He's never answered that either.

If he tried to I'd expect another load of UKIP lies.

You seem to interpret things the way you want to.

Now I don't particularly support any party but could you tell me what is so bad about UKIP?

You seem to have a bit of an unhealthy obsession with them. Could it be that you're in denial and secretly want to 'come out' as a supporter but aren't brave enough?

Nah, of course it's all complete nonsense but they are all campaigning to leave the EU.

Next you'll be claiming to be a nice middle of the road Tory like the last time you decided to pretend you weren't a UKIPer.

Shhhhhh don't tell anyone about:

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2016/03/01/ukip-brexit-campaigning-evans-farage_n_9357148.html

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/dec/20/ukip-tells-members-dont-go-twitter-nigel-farage

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/ukips-advice-for-members-thinking-of-joining-twitter-and-facebook-just-dont-9937643.html

Are you sure you're allowed out without your minder?"

I've never claimed to be a Tory of any kind on here on any thread. But as usual you like to tell lies and just make random stuff up about people who don't agree with you. In case you didn't know Ukip got 4 million votes at the last general election and were 3rd place party in terms of overall vote share. Now I know that must annoy you immensely, but for those 4 million voters it was a wise choice to force Cameron into giving this referendum in the first place.

(closed, thread got too big)

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By *andS66Couple
over a year ago

Derby

6 years ago, our net contribution was £2.7 Billion, in those 6 years our net contribution, even by the most conservative if estimates, has more than trebled....

If it does the same over the next 6 years, by 2022 our net contribution will be over £25 Billion, and by other less conservative estimates could be up to £40 Billion.

With existing EU members getting poorer, and proposed new members poorer still, our net contribution will continue to rise at a rate of knots.

It should also be borne in mind that all the other members of the EU want to get rid of our rebate... we have a veto against that, but how long for is anybody's guess.

(closed, thread got too big)

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By *entaur_UKMan
over a year ago

Cannock

"So I posted this yesterday after seeing people endlessly quoting the £18bn a year/£380m a week/£55m a day figure which is pretty much the cornerstone of the leave campaign.

I felt it was misleading and being deliberately quoted out of context.

Not one single person has posted to defend the use of these figures. I'm starting to think that speaks volumes.

Why is the £18 billion figure mentioned on the full fact website then?

Quote directly from the full fact website clearly says.....

"The UK gets an instant rebate on its EU Membership fee of £5 billion, without which the UK would be liable to pay the sum of £18 billion.

That then gives the £13 billion figure.

The sentence before your quote says: The UK doesn’t pay or "send to Brussels" this higher figure of £18 billion, or anything equivalent per week or per day.

So what is the truth?

The truth is without the instant rebate of 5 billion the UK would be liable to pay the EU the sum of 18 billion.

That was just like watching the fairy queen in Cinderella the way you magicked up that instant rebate. All the missed out was a shower of glitter and a huge puff of smoke - pouff.

There you go with the 13 figure again, changed your tune since last week when you insisted to everyone on the forum the figure was lower than 13.

I'm using the figures you've been quoting from the full facts web site.

According to the OBR (December 2015) the net and gross payments to the EU are estimated to be:

2014/15: £8.7 bn / £13.4 bn

2015/16: £9.6 bn / £13.7 bn

2016/17: £10.6 bn/ £15.1 bn

2017/18: £7.9 bn / £12.6 bn

2018/19: £9.4 bn / £14.4 bn

2019/20: £9.7 bn / £15.0 bn

After this year (2016/17) the estimated nett contribution falls. As I pointed out to you last time round, 10.6 is bigger than 9.7

If you don't believe the numbers, go argue with the OBR. Or get your UKIP master to train you up about them.

As they say at full facts said: The UK doesn’t pay or "send to Brussels" this higher figure of £18 billion, or anything equivalent per week or per day.

Just as a matter of fact, it was me who told you about the full fact stuff, but don't let that trouble you.

So where do you think the OBR hid the £18 bn figure you were telling us they had stated (way back in the John Major thread when you said we paid £18 bn to the EU each year)?

Making up lies again I see, you never told me about the full fact website, I did not get the information about full fact website from this forum. I got to know about it from watching an episode of Newsnight when the BBC said they use it to check their EU facts and figures on. Now let's remind ourselves of that fact from the website you keep forgetting about and you conveniently keep forgetting to quote and post, the bit where it says....."without the instant rebate of £5 billion the UK would be liable to pay the sum of £18 billion to the EU".

(closed, thread got too big)

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"So I posted this yesterday after seeing people endlessly quoting the £18bn a year/£380m a week/£55m a day figure which is pretty much the cornerstone of the leave campaign.

I felt it was misleading and being deliberately quoted out of context.

Not one single person has posted to defend the use of these figures. I'm starting to think that speaks volumes.

Why is the £18 billion figure mentioned on the full fact website then?

Quote directly from the full fact website clearly says.....

"The UK gets an instant rebate on its EU Membership fee of £5 billion, without which the UK would be liable to pay the sum of £18 billion.

That then gives the £13 billion figure.

The sentence before your quote says: The UK doesn’t pay or "send to Brussels" this higher figure of £18 billion, or anything equivalent per week or per day.

So what is the truth?

Let's start with the UKIP stooge's lie first. In the John Major thread he wrote: "The UK paid the EU £18 billion in 2015". You can find that for yourself:

https://www.fabswingers.com/forum/lounge/499482

The UK does not make this mythical payment and then wait for money to come back. It doesn't matter if it's stated on a daily, weekly, monthly or annual basis, it's simply a lie.

I've asked our UKIP rep on many occasions to tell us when the treasury actually paid £18 bn to Europe. He's never been able to answer that because of course it's never happened. Not once.

I've asked Centaur UKIP when he thinks we will be liable to pay that amount, assuming we have to in the future. He's never answered that either.

If he tried to I'd expect another load of UKIP lies.

You seem to interpret things the way you want to.

Now I don't particularly support any party but could you tell me what is so bad about UKIP?

You seem to have a bit of an unhealthy obsession with them. Could it be that you're in denial and secretly want to 'come out' as a supporter but aren't brave enough?

Nah, of course it's all complete nonsense but they are all campaigning to leave the EU.

Next you'll be claiming to be a nice middle of the road Tory like the last time you decided to pretend you weren't a UKIPer.

Shhhhhh don't tell anyone about:

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2016/03/01/ukip-brexit-campaigning-evans-farage_n_9357148.html

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/dec/20/ukip-tells-members-dont-go-twitter-nigel-farage

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/ukips-advice-for-members-thinking-of-joining-twitter-and-facebook-just-dont-9937643.html

Are you sure you're allowed out without your minder?

That was 16% of the electorate wasn't it? It pleases me that 84% saw through them.

As for who tells lies, I'll let your track record stand for you.

(closed, thread got too big)

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"6 years ago, our net contribution was £2.7 Billion, in those 6 years our net contribution, even by the most conservative if estimates, has more than trebled....

If it does the same over the next 6 years, by 2022 our net contribution will be over £25 Billion, and by other less conservative estimates could be up to £40 Billion.

With existing EU members getting poorer, and proposed new members poorer still, our net contribution will continue to rise at a rate of knots.

It should also be borne in mind that all the other members of the EU want to get rid of our rebate... we have a veto against that, but how long for is anybody's guess."

If our nett contribution triples over any period of 6 years I will be cheering and shouting it from the roof tops. Since it's hugely dependent on GNI, it will mean our country's wealth has tripled in that time. Clearly we will have avoided Brexit and the recession it would cause and have continued to prosper with our neghbours. Please God allow our GNI to triple and that it be shared more equitably.

(closed, thread got too big)

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By *adyboy-Daddy OP Couple
over a year ago

Andover

Centaur, I only quoted part of the text not to be misleading in any way but to reduce the amount greyed out nonsense that is on the page. Don't take things so personally.

You say "if you the 8bn not the 18bn on full facts website"

I arrived at the £8bn using the full facts website YOU have me and keep quoting.

It's called FULL facts. Your supposed to read the whole sentence, not stop once you've got to the you want to hear. Surely you can see that? I mean seriously, surely you can.

The net figure is £8bn. You know it, I know, it's simple fact.

As for why do I think we would get the same deal as Norway and Switzerland, then not the same, no. But one aspect of it will def be the same and that's how much we will need to contribute in order to have access to the market. Why on earth would it not be?

They both pay in roughly the same (in fact a little more) per head then than our net saving would be.

It's almost as if somone had worked out the amount and made sure that sheer was no eve omit benefit to not being EU. Hold in a minute!! They have!

(closed, thread got too big)

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"6 years ago, our net contribution was £2.7 Billion, in those 6 years our net contribution, even by the most conservative if estimates, has more than trebled....

If it does the same over the next 6 years, by 2022 our net contribution will be over £25 Billion, and by other less conservative estimates could be up to £40 Billion.

With existing EU members getting poorer, and proposed new members poorer still, our net contribution will continue to rise at a rate of knots.

It should also be borne in mind that all the other members of the EU want to get rid of our rebate... we have a veto against that, but how long for is anybody's guess.

Pmsl. Do you equate a country's wealth with the wealth of its people?

(closed, thread got too big)

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Centaur, I only quoted part of the text not to be misleading in any way but to reduce the amount greyed out nonsense that is on the page. Don't take things so personally.

You say "if you the 8bn not the 18bn on full facts website"

I arrived at the £8bn using the full facts website YOU have me and keep quoting.

It's called FULL facts. Your supposed to read the whole sentence, not stop once you've got to the you want to hear. Surely you can see that? I mean seriously, surely you can.

The net figure is £8bn. You know it, I know, it's simple fact.

They both pay in roughly the same (in fact a little more) per head then than our net saving would be.

It's almost as if somone had worked out the amount and made sure that sheer was no eve omit benefit to not being EU. Hold in a minute!! They have!

Pay to trade with the EU? Who does that?

(closed, thread got too big)

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"So I posted this yesterday after seeing people endlessly quoting the £18bn a year/£380m a week/£55m a day figure which is pretty much the cornerstone of the leave campaign.

I felt it was misleading and being deliberately quoted out of context.

Not one single person has posted to defend the use of these figures. I'm starting to think that speaks volumes.

Why is the £18 billion figure mentioned on the full fact website then?

Quote directly from the full fact website clearly says.....

"The UK gets an instant rebate on its EU Membership fee of £5 billion, without which the UK would be liable to pay the sum of £18 billion.

That then gives the £13 billion figure.

The sentence before your quote says: The UK doesn’t pay or "send to Brussels" this higher figure of £18 billion, or anything equivalent per week or per day.

So what is the truth?

The truth is without the instant rebate of 5 billion the UK would be liable to pay the EU the sum of 18 billion.

That was just like watching the fairy queen in Cinderella the way you magicked up that instant rebate. All the missed out was a shower of glitter and a huge puff of smoke - pouff.

There you go with the 13 figure again, changed your tune since last week when you insisted to everyone on the forum the figure was lower than 13.

I'm using the figures you've been quoting from the full facts web site.

According to the OBR (December 2015) the net and gross payments to the EU are estimated to be:

2014/15: £8.7 bn / £13.4 bn

2015/16: £9.6 bn / £13.7 bn

2016/17: £10.6 bn/ £15.1 bn

2017/18: £7.9 bn / £12.6 bn

2018/19: £9.4 bn / £14.4 bn

2019/20: £9.7 bn / £15.0 bn

After this year (2016/17) the estimated nett contribution falls. As I pointed out to you last time round, 10.6 is bigger than 9.7

If you don't believe the numbers, go argue with the OBR. Or get your UKIP master to train you up about them.

As they say at full facts said: The UK doesn’t pay or "send to Brussels" this higher figure of £18 billion, or anything equivalent per week or per day.

Just as a matter of fact, it was me who told you about the full fact stuff, but don't let that trouble you.

So where do you think the OBR hid the £18 bn figure you were telling us they had stated (way back in the John Major thread when you said we paid £18 bn to the EU each year)?

*** Pouff *** there goes the fairy god mother's magic wand again, paying out money and instantly reclaiming it. Almost as if it didn't go out of the national accounts at all. Which is exactly the case.

And you have completely forgotten to tell us how we could ever possibly become liable to pay that amount in full. Can you see it anywhere in the OBR forecast?

(closed, thread got too big)

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"6 years ago, our net contribution was £2.7 Billion, in those 6 years our net contribution, even by the most conservative if estimates, has more than trebled....

If it does the same over the next 6 years, by 2022 our net contribution will be over £25 Billion, and by other less conservative estimates could be up to £40 Billion.

With existing EU members getting poorer, and proposed new members poorer still, our net contribution will continue to rise at a rate of knots.

It should also be borne in mind that all the other members of the EU want to get rid of our rebate... we have a veto against that, but how long for is anybody's guess.

Pmsl. Do you equate a country's wealth with the wealth of its people?"

I expect you count it in glass beads, or tulips.

(closed, thread got too big)

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"6 years ago, our net contribution was £2.7 Billion, in those 6 years our net contribution, even by the most conservative if estimates, has more than trebled....

If it does the same over the next 6 years, by 2022 our net contribution will be over £25 Billion, and by other less conservative estimates could be up to £40 Billion.

With existing EU members getting poorer, and proposed new members poorer still, our net contribution will continue to rise at a rate of knots.

It should also be borne in mind that all the other members of the EU want to get rid of our rebate... we have a veto against that, but how long for is anybody's guess.

Pmsl. Do you equate a country's wealth with the wealth of its people?

I expect you count it in glass beads, or tulips."

Where, down the foodbank?

(closed, thread got too big)

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"6 years ago, our net contribution was £2.7 Billion, in those 6 years our net contribution, even by the most conservative if estimates, has more than trebled....

If it does the same over the next 6 years, by 2022 our net contribution will be over £25 Billion, and by other less conservative estimates could be up to £40 Billion.

With existing EU members getting poorer, and proposed new members poorer still, our net contribution will continue to rise at a rate of knots.

It should also be borne in mind that all the other members of the EU want to get rid of our rebate... we have a veto against that, but how long for is anybody's guess.

Pmsl. Do you equate a country's wealth with the wealth of its people?

I expect you count it in glass beads, or tulips.

Where, down the foodbank?"

If that's where you are.

(closed, thread got too big)

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By *otlovefun42Couple
over a year ago

Costa Blanca Spain...

That was 16% of the electorate wasn't it? It pleases me that 84% saw through them.

It was actually 12.7% but not 12.7% of the electorate.

It was only 12.7% of the 66.1% who actually got off their arse to vote.

However it was well documented at the time that many people with UKIP sympathies voted Tory because they were shit scared of a Milliband win (as predicted by the pre election polls)

Looking at the total chaos of the Labour party one year on, all I can say is how right they were.

(closed, thread got too big)

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By *entaur_UKMan
over a year ago

Cannock

"6 years ago, our net contribution was £2.7 Billion, in those 6 years our net contribution, even by the most conservative if estimates, has more than trebled....

If it does the same over the next 6 years, by 2022 our net contribution will be over £25 Billion, and by other less conservative estimates could be up to £40 Billion.

With existing EU members getting poorer, and proposed new members poorer still, our net contribution will continue to rise at a rate of knots.

It should also be borne in mind that all the other members of the EU want to get rid of our rebate... we have a veto against that, but how long for is anybody's guess."

That is exactly how the EU operates and does its business, it rewards failure, and penalises success. Another reason why we need to leave.

(closed, thread got too big)

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"6 years ago, our net contribution was £2.7 Billion, in those 6 years our net contribution, even by the most conservative if estimates, has more than trebled....

If it does the same over the next 6 years, by 2022 our net contribution will be over £25 Billion, and by other less conservative estimates could be up to £40 Billion.

With existing EU members getting poorer, and proposed new members poorer still, our net contribution will continue to rise at a rate of knots.

It should also be borne in mind that all the other members of the EU want to get rid of our rebate... we have a veto against that, but how long for is anybody's guess.

Pmsl. Do you equate a country's wealth with the wealth of its people?

I expect you count it in glass beads, or tulips.

Where, down the foodbank?

If that's where you are."

No, sat in my apartment in Spain funnily enough, helping the Spanish economy

(closed, thread got too big)

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By *entaur_UKMan
over a year ago

Cannock

That was 16% of the electorate wasn't it? It pleases me that 84% saw through them.

It was actually 12.7% but not 12.7% of the electorate.

It was only 12.7% of the 66.1% who actually got off their arse to vote.

However it was well documented at the time that many people with UKIP sympathies voted Tory because they were shit scared of a Milliband win (as predicted by the pre election polls)

Looking at the total chaos of the Labour party one year on, all I can say is how right they were."

There was a worse case scenario, a Labour/SNP coalition.

(closed, thread got too big)

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By *ittie4UCouple
over a year ago

Watford

"6 years ago, our net contribution was £2.7 Billion, in those 6 years our net contribution, even by the most conservative if estimates, has more than trebled....

If it does the same over the next 6 years, by 2022 our net contribution will be over £25 Billion, and by other less conservative estimates could be up to £40 Billion.

With existing EU members getting poorer, and proposed new members poorer still, our net contribution will continue to rise at a rate of knots.

It should also be borne in mind that all the other members of the EU want to get rid of our rebate... we have a veto against that, but how long for is anybody's guess.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"6 years ago, our net contribution was £2.7 Billion, in those 6 years our net contribution, even by the most conservative if estimates, has more than trebled....

If it does the same over the next 6 years, by 2022 our net contribution will be over £25 Billion, and by other less conservative estimates could be up to £40 Billion.

With existing EU members getting poorer, and proposed new members poorer still, our net contribution will continue to rise at a rate of knots.

It should also be borne in mind that all the other members of the EU want to get rid of our rebate... we have a veto against that, but how long for is anybody's guess.

Do you seriously think that the country's wealth has tripled in the last 6 years?

(closed, thread got too big)

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By *adyboy-Daddy OP Couple
over a year ago

Andover

Pay to trade with the EU? Who does that?"

Um, everyone who isn't in the EU, by way of taxes, levi's and duties.

That's why what happens inside the EU is "free trade".

And if we leave, we will have to as well. To suggest we would get some kind of special deal where we would not have makes no sense.

(closed, thread got too big)

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By *otlovefun42Couple
over a year ago

Costa Blanca Spain...

That was 16% of the electorate wasn't it? It pleases me that 84% saw through them.

It was actually 12.7% but not 12.7% of the electorate.

It was only 12.7% of the 66.1% who actually got off their arse to vote.

However it was well documented at the time that many people with UKIP sympathies voted Tory because they were shit scared of a Milliband win (as predicted by the pre election polls)

Looking at the total chaos of the Labour party one year on, all I can say is how right they were.

There was a worse case scenario, a Labour/SNP coalition.

Arse. Now you've really given me nightmares.

(closed, thread got too big)

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By *entaur_UKMan
over a year ago

Cannock

Pay to trade with the EU? Who does that?

Um, everyone who isn't in the EU, by way of taxes, levi's and duties.

That's why what happens inside the EU is "free trade".

And if we leave, we will have to as well. To suggest we would get some kind of special deal where we would not have makes no sense. "

The Canada -EU trade deal is 98% free trade deal.....and before you say it does not include services for which the UK is heavily reliant on services, there are no tariffs on the services industry.

(closed, thread got too big)

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Pay to trade with the EU? Who does that?

Um, everyone who isn't in the EU, by way of taxes, levi's and duties.

That's why what happens inside the EU is "free trade".

And if we leave, we will have to as well. To suggest we would get some kind of special deal where we would not have makes no sense.

The Canada -EU trade deal is 98% free trade deal.....and before you say it does not include services for which the UK is heavily reliant on services, there are no tariffs on the services industry. "

Before you say CETA does not include services, you should consider the following from the CETA web site under the heading 'streamlining trade in services': "Around half of the overall GDP gains for the EU are expected to come from liberalising trade in services. CETA will bring new opportunities for European companies by creating access to the Canadian market in key sectors such as financial services, telecommunications, energy and maritime transport. Overall, output gains for the EU could amount to €5.8 billion per year once the agreement is fully implemented.

If the UK leaves the EU, our services industry will be losing its share of that potential 5.8 bn euros per year. Then we'll also be losing the potential benfits in goods trade, around about another 5.8 bn.

That would be part of the Brexit tax.

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By *iamondjoeMan
over a year ago

Glastonbury

*yawns and covers mouth politely*

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By *ethnmelvCouple
over a year ago

Cardiff

"*yawns and covers mouth politely*"

If your bored, go on a different thread. You don't have to contribute if you have something better to do...

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"6 years ago, our net contribution was £2.7 Billion, in those 6 years our net contribution, even by the most conservative if estimates, has more than trebled....

If it does the same over the next 6 years, by 2022 our net contribution will be over £25 Billion, and by other less conservative estimates could be up to £40 Billion.

With existing EU members getting poorer, and proposed new members poorer still, our net contribution will continue to rise at a rate of knots.

It should also be borne in mind that all the other members of the EU want to get rid of our rebate... we have a veto against that, but how long for is anybody's guess.

Do you seriously think that the country's wealth has tripled in the last 6 years?

Nope but wouldn't it be glorious if it had. Equally I don't believe that the nett contribution has tripled over that period. You can have a look at the full facts site for this one (google 'the uk's membership fee'). If you scroll down the relevant page to where it says 'UK payments to EU budget' you'll see a nice little graph and over the last 6 years the level of the black line goes nowhere near tripling.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"*yawns and covers mouth politely*"

Such immaculate manners, but I'd have hoped for something a little pithier to perk this up

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By *entaur_UKMan
over a year ago

Cannock

Pay to trade with the EU? Who does that?

Um, everyone who isn't in the EU, by way of taxes, levi's and duties.

That's why what happens inside the EU is "free trade".

And if we leave, we will have to as well. To suggest we would get some kind of special deal where we would not have makes no sense.

The Canada -EU trade deal is 98% free trade deal.....and before you say it does not include services for which the UK is heavily reliant on services, there are no tariffs on the services industry.

That would be part of the Brexit tax. "

So what you are saying then is the EU is about to shaft Canada. Wonder what Canada will have to say about that, don't think they will be too happy about it will they. Besides which anyway the UK can do a free trade deal with Canada when we leave the EU which will be beneficial to Canada and the UK.

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By *iamondjoeMan
over a year ago

Glastonbury

"*yawns and covers mouth politely*

If your bored, go on a different thread. You don't have to contribute if you have something better to do..."

Try reading the top of the thread - I already did

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Pay to trade with the EU? Who does that?

Um, everyone who isn't in the EU, by way of taxes, levi's and duties.

That's why what happens inside the EU is "free trade".

And if we leave, we will have to as well. To suggest we would get some kind of special deal where we would not have makes no sense.

The Canada -EU trade deal is 98% free trade deal.....and before you say it does not include services for which the UK is heavily reliant on services, there are no tariffs on the services industry.

That would be part of the Brexit tax.

Yes it would appear that the EU has negotiated a good deal with Canada wouldn't it? How delightful that it should be profitable in services, one of the UK's specialities. It's almost as if faceless bureaucrats were looking after the UK's interests very nicely.

Do pop back in 6 or 7 years when you've finished negotiating at a loss of, let's guess, 25 bn to UK plc in Brexit tax.

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By *ethnmelvCouple
over a year ago

Cardiff

"*yawns and covers mouth politely*

If your bored, go on a different thread. You don't have to contribute if you have something better to do...

Try reading the top of the thread - I already did

Well the OP deleted their first post and you decided Trident would be worth mentioning... What chance that a Brexit would lead to a greater spend in this area...

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Interestingly i remember reading some back of a fag packet calculations from some exonomist and if the saved money was spent correctly at home by 2030 i think it could clear the national debt

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Pay to trade with the EU? Who does that?

Um, everyone who isn't in the EU, by way of taxes, levi's and duties.

That's why what happens inside the EU is "free trade".

And if we leave, we will have to as well. To suggest we would get some kind of special deal where we would not have makes no sense.

The Canada -EU trade deal is 98% free trade deal.....and before you say it does not include services for which the UK is heavily reliant on services, there are no tariffs on the services industry.

That would be part of the Brexit tax.

Do pop back in 6 or 7 years when you've finished negotiating at a loss of, let's guess, 25 bn to UK plc in Brexit tax."

But service exports to europe are droping and show no sign of comming back up.

So short term gain staying in but long term gain out where our service exports are rising

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By *iamondjoeMan
over a year ago

Glastonbury

"*yawns and covers mouth politely*

If your bored, go on a different thread. You don't have to contribute if you have something better to do...

Try reading the top of the thread - I already did

Well the OP deleted their first post and you decided Trident would be worth mentioning... What chance that a Brexit would lead to a greater spend in this area...

I'm just making the point that it's all just noughts on a computer screen wheeled out to scare us one way or they other...

It's just silly

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Interestingly i remember reading some back of a fag packet calculations from some exonomist and if the saved money was spent correctly at home by 2030 i think it could clear the national debt"

Perhaps by using it to bet on Leicester winning the premier league next year? With a national debt of £1.46 trillion pounds and 14 years between now and 2030 you'd need $100 bn pounds a year to pay it off by 2030 with no interest. The government allows about £47 bn per year for interest payments.

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By *ethnmelvCouple
over a year ago

Cardiff

"*yawns and covers mouth politely*

If your bored, go on a different thread. You don't have to contribute if you have something better to do...

Try reading the top of the thread - I already did

Well the OP deleted their first post and you decided Trident would be worth mentioning... What chance that a Brexit would lead to a greater spend in this area...

I'm just making the point that it's all just noughts on a computer screen wheeled out to scare us one way or they other...

It's just silly"

Totally agree with you on the silly bit! None of the financial numbers are remotely realistic for real people! £1bn sounds like a huge, huge amount of money, but it is a fraction of what the Government spends. So will these numbers influence people? I don't know, ultimately it is more likely to be like Scotland in that people will look at risk and decide that unless the upside is way, way better than the downside then they will stick with what they have.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"*yawns and covers mouth politely*

If your bored, go on a different thread. You don't have to contribute if you have something better to do...

Try reading the top of the thread - I already did

Well the OP deleted their first post and you decided Trident would be worth mentioning... What chance that a Brexit would lead to a greater spend in this area...

I'm just making the point that it's all just noughts on a computer screen wheeled out to scare us one way or they other...

It's just silly"

Spoilsport

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By *adyboy-Daddy OP Couple
over a year ago

Andover

The Canada -EU trade deal is 98% free trade deal.....and before you say it does not include services for which the UK is heavily reliant on services, there are no tariffs on the services industry. "

Great. So how much does Canada pay to trade with EU? And how much is that compared the £8bn we would save by leaving?

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By *adyboy-Daddy OP Couple
over a year ago

Andover

so to summarise where we are at so far, leaving the EU won't save us £18bn but more like £8bn.

None, some or all of which we may have to pay to get a trade deal with the EU.

Agreed?

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By *andS66Couple
over a year ago

Derby

"6 years ago, our net contribution was £2.7 Billion, in those 6 years our net contribution, even by the most conservative if estimates, has more than trebled....

If it does the same over the next 6 years, by 2022 our net contribution will be over £25 Billion, and by other less conservative estimates could be up to £40 Billion.

With existing EU members getting poorer, and proposed new members poorer still, our net contribution will continue to rise at a rate of knots.

It should also be borne in mind that all the other members of the EU want to get rid of our rebate... we have a veto against that, but how long for is anybody's guess.

You must be as happy as a pig in the proverbial with what the tories have achieved in the last 6 years then.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"so to summarise where we are at so far, leaving the EU won't save us £18bn but more like £8bn.

None, some or all of which we may have to pay to get a trade deal with the EU.

Agreed?"

Debateable.

But consider this.

The EU wants us to stay in because of the danger of the domino effect not because they like us. And if we remain in, in ten years time our Parliament which already rubber-stamps most EU laws without debate will be nothing other than a puppet government to its masters in Berlin and Brussels. Cameron may have got a special deal for himself but if you believe he got a special deal for the rest of us then you must also believe Blair on the existence of WMDs in Iraq.

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By *otlovefun42Couple
over a year ago

Costa Blanca Spain...

"so to summarise where we are at so far, leaving the EU won't save us £18bn but more like £8bn.

None, some or all of which we may have to pay to get a trade deal with the EU.

Agreed?

Debateable.

But consider this.

Cameron's "special deal"

Funny how, if it was so special, it seems to have been swept under the carpet by the remainers.

At this point in the campaign I would have thought they would be shouting it from the rafters, but you hardly hear a whisper.

Seems Mr Chamberlain's (oops sorry Cameron's) piece of paper isn't quite what it was cracked up to be.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

OUT

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By *adyboy-Daddy OP Couple
over a year ago

Andover

"so to summarise where we are at so far, leaving the EU won't save us £18bn but more like £8bn.

None, some or all of which we may have to pay to get a trade deal with the EU.

Agreed?

Debateable"

Which but is debatable?

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By *adyboy-Daddy OP Couple
over a year ago

Andover

Should read "bit"

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By *dd269Man
over a year ago

Clee

You can get the facts about EU debate and other issues - I've been looking at the arguments on fullfact.org (supported by Joseph Rowntree Charitable Trust, Nuffield Foundation and the Esmee Fairbairn Foundation no less).

What do you think guys?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"so to summarise where we are at so far, leaving the EU won't save us £18bn but more like £8bn.

None, some or all of which we may have to pay to get a trade deal with the EU.

Agreed?

Debateable

Which but is debatable? "

Well is your house not full of Chinese goods? How much do they pay into the EU coffers to trade?

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By *horehouseCouple
over a year ago

dissatisfied

"so to summarise where we are at so far, leaving the EU won't save us £18bn but more like £8bn.

None, some or all of which we may have to pay to get a trade deal with the EU.

Agreed?

Debateable

Which but is debatable?

Well is your house not full of Chinese goods? How much do they pay into the EU coffers to trade?"
not exactly fair trade is it when china slaps up to 45%import duty on cars we send there ..china wants to flood us with cheap poorly made crap ..but doesn't want our goods in return

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"so to summarise where we are at so far, leaving the EU won't save us £18bn but more like £8bn.

None, some or all of which we may have to pay to get a trade deal with the EU.

Agreed?

Debateable

Which but is debatable?

Well is your house not full of Chinese goods? How much do they pay into the EU coffers to trade?not exactly fair trade is it when china slaps up to 45%import duty on cars we send there ..china wants to flood us with cheap poorly made crap ..but doesn't want our goods in return "

Kinda reinforces my point then doesn't it?

But having said that, UK exports to China have more than doubled since 2010

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"You can get the facts about EU debate and other issues - I've been looking at the arguments on fullfact.org (supported by Joseph Rowntree Charitable Trust, Nuffield Foundation and the Esmee Fairbairn Foundation no less).

What do you think guys?"

that fact site has been up a long time and more subjects than just EU,

still out

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By *adyboy-Daddy OP Couple
over a year ago

Andover

"so to summarise where we are at so far, leaving the EU won't save us £18bn but more like £8bn.

None, some or all of which we may have to pay to get a trade deal with the EU.

Agreed?

Debateable

Which but is debatable?

Well is your house not full of Chinese goods? How much do they pay into the EU coffers to trade?"

I don't know. But they do pay.

and I don't know how that relates to the point I was clarifying.

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By *adyboy-Daddy OP Couple
over a year ago

Andover

What do you think guys?

that fact site has been up a long time and more subjects than just EU,

still out"

It is a decent site. It's a shame take a site named Fullfact and then restrictively quote form it to mis-represent the situation.

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By *horehouseCouple
over a year ago

dissatisfied

"so to summarise where we are at so far, leaving the EU won't save us £18bn but more like £8bn.

None, some or all of which we may have to pay to get a trade deal with the EU.

Agreed?

Debateable

Which but is debatable?

Kinda reinforces my point then doesn't it?

But having said that, UK exports to China have more than doubled since 2010"
not really since the UK last sent china 29million in aid surely that's paying to trade there buying goods from china doesn't help create jobs in the UK we need fair trade there to sell our goods ..

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

What do you think guys?

that fact site has been up a long time and more subjects than just EU,

still out

It is a decent site. It's a shame take a site named Fullfact and then restrictively quote form it to mis-represent the situation. "

at the end of the day its just a site, its called fullfact, but can easily be called fullshite, fullempty or full what ever,

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"so to summarise where we are at so far, leaving the EU won't save us £18bn but more like £8bn.

None, some or all of which we may have to pay to get a trade deal with the EU.

Agreed?

Debateable

Which but is debatable?

Kinda reinforces my point then doesn't it?

But having said that, UK exports to China have more than doubled since 2010not really since the UK last sent china 29million in aid surely that's paying to trade there buying goods from china doesn't help create jobs in the UK we need fair trade there to sell our goods .."

So why doesn't your precious EU do something about it?

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By *adyboy-Daddy OP Couple
over a year ago

Andover

What do you think guys?

that fact site has been up a long time and more subjects than just EU,

still out

It is a decent site. It's a shame take a site named Fullfact and then restrictively quote form it to mis-represent the situation.

at the end of the day its just a site, its called fullfact, but can easily be called fullshite, fullempty or full what ever,

Unless of course it's just giving facts without opinions, which is pretty much what anyone trying to make an informed decision needs and seems to be the last thing anyone backing a Brexit wants to hear.

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By *horehouseCouple
over a year ago

dissatisfied

"so to summarise where we are at so far, leaving the EU won't save us £18bn but more like £8bn.

None, some or all of which we may have to pay to get a trade deal with the EU.

Agreed?

Debateable

Which but is debatable?

Kinda reinforces my point then doesn't it?

So why doesn't your precious EU do something about it?"
who's going to after brexit not UKIP there a non entity so that will be the tory government then yea right dream on ... Wrong time to vote out ..if you don't trust them to lead you in the right direction now why are you trusting them to lead the UK out ......so your decision is based upon you know better than them ?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I think the quote button should be removed once the quote becomes 2 full screens long

Anyway, my take is better the devil you know, stay in the EU, at least you know what you're getting and at what cost.

While I don't like the so called EU gravy train, one will always remain for a select few no matter how we govern.

Leaving the EU could easily trigger massive financial unheavel that frankly we're only just starting to get out of after the 2008 fuck up.

For anyone thinking we'd get full control of our borders while maintaining trade with the EU is massivly mistaken.

"It’s quite difficult for me to answer that question because I don’t know what sort of model a post-Brexit UK will have. But, if we look at the possible models, I think they fit broadly into two buckets. One is what’s generally called the ‘Norway model’ – the Swiss model is very close to it, so let’s for the sake of argument call it the ‘Norway model’. Under the terms of the model, Norway is part of the European Economic Area (EEA) which gives it access to the Single Market, so you have all the economic benefits [of EU membership]. However, part of the deal is that you must also accept free movement of people. So, Norway is actually in Schengen, even though it’s not inside the European Union… There would be no change in terms of control of our borders, so what is the point of Brexit?

The other model is what people call the ‘Canada model’, or it could be China, Singapore, or any country which has a trading relationship with the EU but is not part of the Single Market. Now, you could have far greater control of your borders, and you would not have to accept free movement of people. But, you would lose access to the Single Market and have to start creating trade arrangement with every single one of the other 27 members of the EU, and let’s not forget that accounts for 50% of our trade. And, in each case, every single product would also be subject to a tariff, just as any Canadian product has to pay a tariff usually of between 10% and 20% on any goods they are exporting. Now that would, I believe, lead to a collapse of the British economy, because if you suddenly have to add between 10% and 20% onto every single one of your products that you’re trying to export, nobody is going to be buying your products in the EU, which is 50% of your market. So, yes, you might get control of your borders in terms of immigration under that model, but the downside would be the total collapse of the British economy, which I think is a pretty big price to pay…"

http://www.debatingeurope.eu/2016/03/10/leaving-eu-affect-immigration-britain/#.VynHALAVm30

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By *otlovefun42Couple
over a year ago

Costa Blanca Spain...

"I think the quote button should be removed once the quote becomes 2 full screens long

Anyway, my take is better the devil you know, stay in the EU, at least you know what you're getting and at what cost.

Fully agree about the quote button

"Better the devil you know"

That is all well and good but how well do you really know that devil?

Knowing the EU as it is now is one thing, but who knows what is to come?

We all thought we knew the "Common Market" in the 70's. We were told there would be no loss of sovereignty. Free movement, single currency, ever closer union Etc. were never mentioned.

We thought we were joining a trading block of six countries (that would become nine) There was no mention of a United States of Europe with 28 (and counting)

Cameron's "new deal" is already being rubbished by Juncker and Co. Once the referendum is out of the way the whole thing will be torn up and Britain will do as it is told.

This referendum is a once in a lifetime chance and a remain vote will never be reversed, no matter what the current version of the EU morphs into.

And morph it will, so think very carefully.

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By *entaur_UKMan
over a year ago

Cannock

"so to summarise where we are at so far, leaving the EU won't save us £18bn but more like £8bn.

None, some or all of which we may have to pay to get a trade deal with the EU.

Agreed?

Debateable

Which but is debatable?

Kinda reinforces my point then doesn't it?

But having said that, UK exports to China have more than doubled since 2010"

Plus if there is a drop in the pound for a while upon Brexit it will make us more competitive and boost our export market more.

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By *entaur_UKMan
over a year ago

Cannock

What do you think guys?

that fact site has been up a long time and more subjects than just EU,

still out

It is a decent site. It's a shame take a site named Fullfact and then restrictively quote form it to mis-represent the situation. "

You seem to be painting this picture its all one sided? The remain side have been doing a fair bit of their own restrictively quoting snippets from fullfact site to mis-represent the situation.

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By *entaur_UKMan
over a year ago

Cannock

"I think the quote button should be removed once the quote becomes 2 full screens long

Anyway, my take is better the devil you know, stay in the EU, at least you know what you're getting and at what cost.

Fully agree about the quote button

"Better the devil you know"

That is all well and good but how well do you really know that devil?

Knowing the EU as it is now is one thing, but who knows what is to come?

We all thought we knew the "Common Market" in the 70's. We were told there would be no loss of sovereignty. Free movement, single currency, ever closer union Etc. were never mentioned.

We thought we were joining a trading block of six countries (that would become nine) There was no mention of a United States of Europe with 28 (and counting)

Cameron's "new deal" is already being rubbished by Juncker and Co. Once the referendum is out of the way the whole thing will be torn up and Britain will do as it is told.

This referendum is a once in a lifetime chance and a remain vote will never be reversed, no matter what the current version of the EU morphs into.

And morph it will, so think very carefully.

As Michael Gove says the Cameron renegotiation deal is not legally binding. Gove should know a fair bit about legally binding documents being the Justice Minister.

One of the top dogs from the EU Martin Shultz was rubbishing the Cameron deal live to the press as soon as Cameron was out the door. It's not worth the paper it's written on.

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By *horehouseCouple
over a year ago

dissatisfied

"I think the quote button should be removed once the quote becomes 2 full screens long

Anyway, my take is better the devil you know, stay in the EU, at least you know what you're getting and at what cost.

Fully agree about the quote button

"Better the devil you know"

That is all well and good but how well do you really know that devil?

Knowing the EU as it is now is one thing, but who knows what is to come?

We all thought we knew the "Common Market" in the 70's. We were told there would be no loss of sovereignty. Free movement, single currency, ever closer union Etc. were never mentioned.

We thought we were joining a trading block of six countries (that would become nine) There was no mention of a United States of Europe with 28 (and counting)

Cameron's "new deal" is already being rubbished by Juncker and Co. Once the referendum is out of the way the whole thing will be torn up and Britain will do as it is told.

This referendum is a once in a lifetime chance and a remain vote will never be reversed, no matter what the current version of the EU morphs into.

And morph it will, so think very carefully.

"
you can have a referendum every year to leave if the UK government wishes. But its once in a lifetime to vote to stay a remain vote can always be changed a leave vote cant ..think carefully before you throw away the last forty yrs of membership ....

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By *aulnorthumberlandMan
over a year ago

Blyth

Pay to trade with the EU? Who does that?

Um, everyone who isn't in the EU, by way of taxes, levi's and duties.

That's why what happens inside the EU is "free trade".

And if we leave, we will have to as well. To suggest we would get some kind of special deal where we would not have makes no sense. "
we buy more off them than they buy off us so if an import tax is going to be introduced by the e u do you think the uk government wont introduce an import tax on e u goods

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By *ethnmelvCouple
over a year ago

Cardiff

"so to summarise where we are at so far, leaving the EU won't save us £18bn but more like £8bn.

None, some or all of which we may have to pay to get a trade deal with the EU.

Agreed?

Debateable

Which but is debatable?

Kinda reinforces my point then doesn't it?

But having said that, UK exports to China have more than doubled since 2010

Plus if there is a drop in the pound for a while upon Brexit it will make us more competitive and boost our export market more."

I recall a little drop in the £ once before, led to interest rates hitting 15%, people defaulting on mortgages and quite a contraction of our economy. Maybe I could cope with a month of paying out a hell of a lot more in Mortgage, but not too much longer. Of course you will say it won't go as high as that, but a whole lot of people will suffer with just a 1% hike in base rates.....

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

What do you think guys?

that fact site has been up a long time and more subjects than just EU,

still out

It is a decent site. It's a shame take a site named Fullfact and then restrictively quote form it to mis-represent the situation.

You seem to be painting this picture its all one sided? The remain side have been doing a fair bit of their own restrictively quoting snippets from fullfact site to mis-represent the situation. "

Oh that made me laugh so much I almost cried. You are a true comedian. I love the way you satirise yourself. Keep up the good work for the remain campaign

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By *entaur_UKMan
over a year ago

Cannock

"so to summarise where we are at so far, leaving the EU won't save us £18bn but more like £8bn.

None, some or all of which we may have to pay to get a trade deal with the EU.

Agreed?

Debateable

Which but is debatable?

Kinda reinforces my point then doesn't it?

But having said that, UK exports to China have more than doubled since 2010

Plus if there is a drop in the pound for a while upon Brexit it will make us more competitive and boost our export market more.

Are you talking about the european economic exchange rate mechanism (ERM) catastrophe? Remind us again who told us all that would be a good idea.....

It was the CBI and the IMF, the same people who told us to join the euro and the same people who are telling us to stay in the EU now.

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By *entaur_UKMan
over a year ago

Cannock

What do you think guys?

that fact site has been up a long time and more subjects than just EU,

still out

It is a decent site. It's a shame take a site named Fullfact and then restrictively quote form it to mis-represent the situation.

You seem to be painting this picture its all one sided? The remain side have been doing a fair bit of their own restrictively quoting snippets from fullfact site to mis-represent the situation.

Oh that made me laugh so much I almost cried. You are a true comedian. I love the way you satirise yourself. Keep up the good work for the remain campaign

You should laugh you are the main culprit guilty of it on the remain side.

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By *nleashedCrakenMan
over a year ago

Widnes

Alec

Arguably this is because the UK is more concerned whether EU membership is a good idea or not, rather than getting stuck in, right at the heart of the engine room, with France and Germany...

We could have far more influence, if we chose."

Arguably you could say we have a large influence as it is. Using BREXITs own figures about 2000 resolutions per year (Boris' figure) are voted on by the EU legislative bodies. Since joining the EEC/EU Britain has been on the loosing side of votes 72 times. Britain has been in the EU 43 years.

2000 * 43 = 86000

To workout the %

100 - (73 / 86000) = 99.916

On those figures I'd say we get our own way a lot more than not.

Of course I've used BREXIT's own figures so it could be complete bollocks.

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By *nleashedCrakenMan
over a year ago

Widnes

"The OP asked about net financial gain or loss. It would be interesting to hear peoples views on this rather than the usual spiral into other issues."

The OP's assessment of the finances was mostly right on the figures and totally right on the logic as to how to work out the real amount.

Nothing more to say on it really.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

What do you think guys?

that fact site has been up a long time and more subjects than just EU,

still out

It is a decent site. It's a shame take a site named Fullfact and then restrictively quote form it to mis-represent the situation.

You seem to be painting this picture its all one sided? The remain side have been doing a fair bit of their own restrictively quoting snippets from fullfact site to mis-represent the situation.

Oh that made me laugh so much I almost cried. You are a true comedian. I love the way you satirise yourself. Keep up the good work for the remain campaign

You should laugh you are the main culprit guilty of it on the remain side. "

Comedy gold, well done! I haven't laughed so much in ages - it's like watching a spitting images puppet on steroids.

(closed, thread got too big)

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By *entaur_UKMan
over a year ago

Cannock

What do you think guys?

that fact site has been up a long time and more subjects than just EU,

still out

It is a decent site. It's a shame take a site named Fullfact and then restrictively quote form it to mis-represent the situation.

You seem to be painting this picture its all one sided? The remain side have been doing a fair bit of their own restrictively quoting snippets from fullfact site to mis-represent the situation.

Oh that made me laugh so much I almost cried. You are a true comedian. I love the way you satirise yourself. Keep up the good work for the remain campaign

You should laugh you are the main culprit guilty of it on the remain side.

Comedy gold, well done! I haven't laughed so much in ages - it's like watching a spitting images puppet on steroids."

Have you been watching yourself in the mirror then?

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By *entaur_UKMan
over a year ago

Cannock

"So I posted this yesterday after seeing people endlessly quoting the £18bn a year/£380m a week/£55m a day figure which is pretty much the cornerstone of the leave campaign.

I felt it was misleading and being deliberately quoted out of context.

Not one single person has posted to defend the use of these figures. I'm starting to think that speaks volumes.

Why is the £18 billion figure mentioned on the full fact website then?

Quote directly from the full fact website clearly says.....

"The UK gets an instant rebate on its EU Membership fee of £5 billion, without which the UK would be liable to pay the sum of £18 billion.

That then gives the £13 billion figure.

The sentence before your quote says: The UK doesn’t pay or "send to Brussels" this higher figure of £18 billion, or anything equivalent per week or per day.

So what is the truth?

Let's start with the UKIP stooge's lie first. In the John Major thread he wrote: "The UK paid the EU £18 billion in 2015". You can find that for yourself:

https://www.fabswingers.com/forum/lounge/499482

The UK does not make this mythical payment and then wait for money to come back. It doesn't matter if it's stated on a daily, weekly, monthly or annual basis, it's simply a lie.

I've asked our UKIP rep on many occasions to tell us when the treasury actually paid £18 bn to Europe. He's never been able to answer that because of course it's never happened. Not once.

I've asked Centaur UKIP when he thinks we will be liable to pay that amount, assuming we have to in the future. He's never answered that either.

If he tried to I'd expect another load of UKIP lies.

You seem to interpret things the way you want to.

Now I don't particularly support any party but could you tell me what is so bad about UKIP?

You seem to have a bit of an unhealthy obsession with them. Could it be that you're in denial and secretly want to 'come out' as a supporter but aren't brave enough?

No Man4you is obviously a Monster raving loony party activist. Let's face it you'd have to be loony to want to stay in the EU.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"So I posted this yesterday after seeing people endlessly quoting the £18bn a year/£380m a week/£55m a day figure which is pretty much the cornerstone of the leave campaign.

I felt it was misleading and being deliberately quoted out of context.

Not one single person has posted to defend the use of these figures. I'm starting to think that speaks volumes.

Why is the £18 billion figure mentioned on the full fact website then?

Quote directly from the full fact website clearly says.....

"The UK gets an instant rebate on its EU Membership fee of £5 billion, without which the UK would be liable to pay the sum of £18 billion.

That then gives the £13 billion figure.

The sentence before your quote says: The UK doesn’t pay or "send to Brussels" this higher figure of £18 billion, or anything equivalent per week or per day.

So what is the truth?

Let's start with the UKIP stooge's lie first. In the John Major thread he wrote: "The UK paid the EU £18 billion in 2015". You can find that for yourself:

https://www.fabswingers.com/forum/lounge/499482

The UK does not make this mythical payment and then wait for money to come back. It doesn't matter if it's stated on a daily, weekly, monthly or annual basis, it's simply a lie.

I've asked our UKIP rep on many occasions to tell us when the treasury actually paid £18 bn to Europe. He's never been able to answer that because of course it's never happened. Not once.

I've asked Centaur UKIP when he thinks we will be liable to pay that amount, assuming we have to in the future. He's never answered that either.

If he tried to I'd expect another load of UKIP lies.

You seem to interpret things the way you want to.

Now I don't particularly support any party but could you tell me what is so bad about UKIP?

You seem to have a bit of an unhealthy obsession with them. Could it be that you're in denial and secretly want to 'come out' as a supporter but aren't brave enough?

No Man4you is obviously a Monster raving loony party activist. Let's face it you'd have to be loony to want to stay in the EU.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

What do you think guys?

that fact site has been up a long time and more subjects than just EU,

still out

It is a decent site. It's a shame take a site named Fullfact and then restrictively quote form it to mis-represent the situation.

You seem to be painting this picture its all one sided? The remain side have been doing a fair bit of their own restrictively quoting snippets from fullfact site to mis-represent the situation.

Oh that made me laugh so much I almost cried. You are a true comedian. I love the way you satirise yourself. Keep up the good work for the remain campaign

You should laugh you are the main culprit guilty of it on the remain side.

Comedy gold, well done! I haven't laughed so much in ages - it's like watching a spitting images puppet on steroids.

Have you been watching yourself in the mirror then? "

Oh I haven't got time for all that narcissism, I'm enjoying yours too much

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"So I posted this yesterday after seeing people endlessly quoting the £18bn a year/£380m a week/£55m a day figure which is pretty much the cornerstone of the leave campaign.

I felt it was misleading and being deliberately quoted out of context.

Not one single person has posted to defend the use of these figures. I'm starting to think that speaks volumes.

Why is the £18 billion figure mentioned on the full fact website then?

Quote directly from the full fact website clearly says.....

"The UK gets an instant rebate on its EU Membership fee of £5 billion, without which the UK would be liable to pay the sum of £18 billion.

That then gives the £13 billion figure.

The sentence before your quote says: The UK doesn’t pay or "send to Brussels" this higher figure of £18 billion, or anything equivalent per week or per day.

So what is the truth?

Let's start with the UKIP stooge's lie first. In the John Major thread he wrote: "The UK paid the EU £18 billion in 2015". You can find that for yourself:

https://www.fabswingers.com/forum/lounge/499482

The UK does not make this mythical payment and then wait for money to come back. It doesn't matter if it's stated on a daily, weekly, monthly or annual basis, it's simply a lie.

I've asked our UKIP rep on many occasions to tell us when the treasury actually paid £18 bn to Europe. He's never been able to answer that because of course it's never happened. Not once.

I've asked Centaur UKIP when he thinks we will be liable to pay that amount, assuming we have to in the future. He's never answered that either.

If he tried to I'd expect another load of UKIP lies.

You seem to interpret things the way you want to.

Now I don't particularly support any party but could you tell me what is so bad about UKIP?

You seem to have a bit of an unhealthy obsession with them. Could it be that you're in denial and secretly want to 'come out' as a supporter but aren't brave enough?

No Man4you is obviously a Monster raving loony party activist. Let's face it you'd have to be loony to want to stay in the EU.

Ah now it's laurel and hardy 'working' together, even funnier.

Did you manage to work out the meaning of that squiggly black line on the graph yet for the last 6 years? You know the 6 years where our nett contribution didn't triple?

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By *nleashedCrakenMan
over a year ago

Widnes

"So I posted this yesterday after seeing people endlessly quoting the £18bn a year/£380m a week/£55m a day figure which is pretty much the cornerstone of the leave campaign.

I felt it was misleading and being deliberately quoted out of context.

Not one single person has posted to defend the use of these figures. I'm starting to think that speaks volumes.

Why is the £18 billion figure mentioned on the full fact website then?

Quote directly from the full fact website clearly says.....

"The UK gets an instant rebate on its EU Membership fee of £5 billion, without which the UK would be liable to pay the sum of £18 billion.

That then gives the £13 billion figure.

The sentence before your quote says: The UK doesn’t pay or "send to Brussels" this higher figure of £18 billion, or anything equivalent per week or per day.

So what is the truth?

The truth is without the instant rebate of 5 billion the UK would be liable to pay the EU the sum of 18 billion.

But we don't pay 18 billion, as you know, so why not go with the real figures of 13 billion gross and 8 billion net.

Whilst overall I'm in favour of IN I thing the amount we pay in is important and 8 billion works well enough for the OUT. Using 18 billion just leaves BREXIT open to accusations of misleading the public or simply lying.

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