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"I am not smart enough to outwit the tax man, so invoice and paid into the bank for me "Good for you. Me too. The roofer I have coming this week was a little shocked I insisted on paying the VAT. He asked if I work for HMRC.  | |||
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"Or invoice and VAT? Since everyone is getting all caught up in tax evasion I ask you to look to yourselves. " My newsagent gave me a funny look this morning when I paid cash for my newspaper and asked for a vat receipt | |||
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"You have a TRADESMAN turned up to work *faints*. Three years of my life I have lost ' waiting' for tradesmen !! "Well, he hasn't turned up yet but he did call to tell me when he's coming. | |||
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"Or invoice and VAT? Since everyone is getting all caught up in tax evasion I ask you to look to yourselves. My newsagent gave me a funny look this morning when I paid cash for my newspaper and asked for a vat receipt "Did you note how long was spent on the transaction to add it to your billable hours? | |||
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"My Employer does a very good job of assisting in avoiding paying tax Oil Corporations look after their employee's well "Baby oil? | |||
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"You have a TRADESMAN turned up to work *faints*. Three years of my life I have lost ' waiting' for tradesmen !!
Well, he hasn't turned up yet but he did call to tell me when he's coming.
"Oh yeah, they price the job, tell you they are coming..........then 'poof' something more important cropped up, they will ring you when they have an 'opening'...........5 joiners, 5 renderers/plasterers, 3 builders........  | |||
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"I prefer to be invoiced" So much easier when seeking redress too. | |||
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"You have a TRADESMAN turned up to work *faints*. Three years of my life I have lost ' waiting' for tradesmen !!
Well, he hasn't turned up yet but he did call to tell me when he's coming.
Oh yeah, they price the job, tell you they are coming..........then 'poof' something more important cropped up, they will ring you when they have an 'opening'...........5 joiners, 5 renderers/plasterers, 3 builders........ "Maybe you should send them your avatar with the request for work? | |||
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"Or invoice and VAT? Since everyone is getting all caught up in tax evasion I ask you to look to yourselves. " Bank Transfer. | |||
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"I'm self employed. I claim everything and avoid as much tax as possible. Why wouldn't you?" I'm self employed too. I believe in taxation to support our public systems. | |||
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"I'm self employed. I claim everything and avoid as much tax as possible. Why wouldn't you? I'm self employed too. I believe in taxation to support our public systems. " I just don't believe there's going to be anything left for me when I get to the age where I really need to depend on it. So I claim everything I can, and put the tax I manage to avoid into a private pension and I pay for private healthcare. | |||
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"You have a TRADESMAN turned up to work *faints*. Three years of my life I have lost ' waiting' for tradesmen !!
Well, he hasn't turned up yet but he did call to tell me when he's coming.
Oh yeah, they price the job, tell you they are coming..........then 'poof' something more important cropped up, they will ring you when they have an 'opening'...........5 joiners, 5 renderers/plasterers, 3 builders........
Maybe you should send them your avatar with the request for work? "Hell yeah, I can get it 'fast and free', if I stoop to trading for sex, but for money, nope  | |||
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"You have a TRADESMAN turned up to work *faints*. Three years of my life I have lost ' waiting' for tradesmen !!
Well, he hasn't turned up yet but he did call to tell me when he's coming.
Oh yeah, they price the job, tell you they are coming..........then 'poof' something more important cropped up, they will ring you when they have an 'opening'...........5 joiners, 5 renderers/plasterers, 3 builders........
Maybe you should send them your avatar with the request for work?
Hell yeah, I can get it 'fast and free', if I stoop to trading for sex, but for money, nope "I have told the kids that one of them, at least, needs to get a trade to guarantee work for life. | |||
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"I'm self employed. I claim everything and avoid as much tax as possible. Why wouldn't you? I'm self employed too. I believe in taxation to support our public systems. I just don't believe there's going to be anything left for me when I get to the age where I really need to depend on it. So I claim everything I can, and put the tax I manage to avoid into a private pension and I pay for private healthcare. " Sounds very Christian | |||
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"Most self employed tradesmen won't risk getting caught out, you may get the odd small job cash in hand" Aways going to be anecdotal.. but my experience of builders electricians , farm workers mobile hair and beauty people plumbers is they do a lot of cash in hand tax avoidance xxx | |||
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"I do everything by the book. Mrs" Me too. *Very* by the book. | |||
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"As I'm paid a salary my tax is automatically deducted. I begrudge not one penny. If a local business man or trader wishes to be paid cash in hand I also have no problem. It's hardly billions." If they all did it on every job it soon would be. | |||
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"Or invoice and VAT? Since everyone is getting all caught up in tax evasion I ask you to look to yourselves. " . I take cash in hand on many jobs. I just bank it, the customer thinks it's cheap when they pay cash | |||
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"Listened to an inter_iew with someone form HMRC on radio 4 yesterday. Can't remember the actual figures but basically the amount that the wealthy manage to avoid paying with offshore stuff and dodgy dealings paled into virtual insignificance when compared to the "Black economy" of cash in hand tax avoidance. Surprised me. " Yep I can see that being the case. Seems those that do it see it as OK to do whilst moaning about offshore funds. Ironic really. Sarah | |||
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" Yep I can see that being the case. Seems those that do it see it as OK to do whilst moaning about offshore funds. Ironic really. Sarah " Agree with this, someone close to me is a self employed electrician who will do loads cash in hand. His attitude is my family has paid their taxes all their lives why should I? Trouble is he'll happily use the NHS while his other half will get teacher training paid for by the government but still remain claiming benefits. I'm not saying I've never done cash only work but that was for the odd £20 even then I doubt I'd ever got to the hundreds. | |||
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" Yep I can see that being the case. Seems those that do it see it as OK to do whilst moaning about offshore funds. Ironic really. Sarah Agree with this, someone close to me is a self employed electrician who will do loads cash in hand. His attitude is my family has paid their taxes all their lives why should I? Trouble is he'll happily use the NHS while his other half will get teacher training paid for by the government but still remain claiming benefits. I'm not saying I've never done cash only work but that was for the odd £20 even then I doubt I'd ever got to the hundreds. " . These stories fit perfectly with the problem!. What your all saying is that most folk would rather have it done cheap, than have a job done right and which has records and receipts for later redress if things go wrong. It's exactly what they vote for every general election!. | |||
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"As I'm paid a salary my tax is automatically deducted. I begrudge not one penny. If a local business man or trader wishes to be paid cash in hand I also have no problem. It's hardly billions." Taken in isolation, this is correct but when looked at Nationally the issue is enormous. | |||
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"I'm self employed. I claim everything and avoid as much tax as possible. Why wouldn't you?"  We do the same, swinging is one of the only things i can't claim for lol. | |||
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"You have a TRADESMAN turned up to work *faints*. Three years of my life I have lost ' waiting' for tradesmen !! "Well. Let me tell YOU about my workies...... They didn't turn up either. | |||
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"As I'm paid a salary my tax is automatically deducted. I begrudge not one penny. If a local business man or trader wishes to be paid cash in hand I also have no problem. It's hardly billions. Taken in isolation, this is correct but when looked at Nationally the issue is enormous. " It's not billions even nationally. | |||
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"I'm self employed. I claim everything and avoid as much tax as possible. Why wouldn't you?" We do that too and registered for vat so can claim more in his wages. | |||
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"As I'm paid a salary my tax is automatically deducted. I begrudge not one penny. If a local business man or trader wishes to be paid cash in hand I also have no problem. It's hardly billions. Taken in isolation, this is correct but when looked at Nationally the issue is enormous. It's not billions even nationally. " Yes it is. And that's the point. It is many, many billions. | |||
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"As I'm paid a salary my tax is automatically deducted. I begrudge not one penny. If a local business man or trader wishes to be paid cash in hand I also have no problem. It's hardly billions. Taken in isolation, this is correct but when looked at Nationally the issue is enormous. It's not billions even nationally. " there are around 5,000,000 self employed people in the UK. Let's say that individually they each did a single cash job each week that avoided just £10 in tax contributions. That is a loss of £50,000,000 per week - £200,000,000 every month or £2,400,000,000 every year. That £10 is probably the equivalent of a mobile hairdresser not declaring one cut a week of the 25-30 that he/she does. It may be the top/bottom of the beer barrell that does not go through the books or a single special dessert in a cafe. Increase the ticket price a little and look at some gardening, landscaping, plumbing, electrical jobs and that mere £10 is going to rocket. So yes - this does amount to £billions. | |||
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"As I'm paid a salary my tax is automatically deducted. I begrudge not one penny. If a local business man or trader wishes to be paid cash in hand I also have no problem. It's hardly billions. Taken in isolation, this is correct but when looked at Nationally the issue is enormous. It's not billions even nationally. there are around 5,000,000 self employed people in the UK. Let's say that individually they each did a single cash job each week that avoided just £10 in tax contributions. That is a loss of £50,000,000 per week - £200,000,000 every month or £2,400,000,000 every year. That £10 is probably the equivalent of a mobile hairdresser not declaring one cut a week of the 25-30 that he/she does. It may be the top/bottom of the beer barrell that does not go through the books or a single special dessert in a cafe. Increase the ticket price a little and look at some gardening, landscaping, plumbing, electrical jobs and that mere £10 is going to rocket. So yes - this does amount to £billions." . I wouldn't argue with that point or those figures. However it does less harm economically speaking than large scale off shore tax avoidance. That hairdresser will more than likely spend the £ 50 cash job within a week, so the money has only been out of the system for a short period. However off shore tax avoidance means the money is out of the system for long period, possibly years!. Also I'm self employed and like many I would not do a cash job unless it's for friends or family and even then I usually say buy my pint next time I'm in, because I know they catch you sooner or later and when they do, there'll audit you and your screwed to the wall!. If you ever get unlucky enough to be picked up for an audit,I would make sure your squeaky clean because they will find it and they will fuck you... And not in a good way  | |||
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"cash cash cash....-uck the tax man....he only wastes it on shit projects ....as mr trotter said no income tax no vat ...see he was right" . Like your pension?. Winter fuel allowance?. Free prescriptions? Free bus pass?. Free Medical care? Roads! Maybe your free school you went too or your university, no you mean the armed services that protect you, maybe the police then?... Ambulances, fire services in case your house burns down or God forbid you crash your car on a way to a meet?... Yep total waste of time | |||
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" I wouldn't argue with that point or those figures. However it does less harm economically speaking than large scale off shore tax avoidance. " Nope, the figure £2,400,000,000 is actually very understated. It's refined to be more like £40,000,000,000 And is far, far more than dodgy offshore dealing as although the figures involved in the offshore stuff can be mind boggling to the general public there are very few people in a position to be able to do it. But the "black economy" of cash in hand tax avoidance is undertaken by virtually everyone one way or another. | |||
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"But cash in hand money does not pay tax. You can't build a new school with 40% of a tenner that's in someone's pocket. You build it with 40% of the declared earnings which is paid in tax. " cash in hand doesnt stay in someones pocket for long. It gets spent in the local economy. Tax avoidance/evasion the money is removed from the economy. | |||
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"But cash in hand money does not pay tax. You can't build a new school with 40% of a tenner that's in someone's pocket. You build it with 40% of the declared earnings which is paid in tax. cash in hand doesnt stay in someones pocket for long. It gets spent in the local economy. Tax avoidance/evasion the money is removed from the economy." Except for all the money which rich people spend in shops, restaurants, bars, with different businesses doing up their homes, on new cars, and all of that. They don't avoid tax just for the sake of it, it's so they can have a certain lifestyle. | |||
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" I wouldn't argue with that point or those figures. However it does less harm economically speaking than large scale off shore tax avoidance. Nope, the figure £2,400,000,000 is actually very understated. It's refined to be more like £40,000,000,000 And is far, far more than dodgy offshore dealing as although the figures involved in the offshore stuff can be mind boggling to the general public there are very few people in a position to be able to do it. But the "black economy" of cash in hand tax avoidance is undertaken by virtually everyone one way or another. " . You know why it's called a black economy???. Because it's still doing economic activity, it's in constant circulation accruing "tax" along its path, just not as much as it should, however even that is a misnomer because the total tax take is the same, they just bumped the rates up, to negate the bit that was lost!. Now when your doing off shore tax evasion by the extremely wealthy, this money goes off shore to be hidden (that's how they evade tax) it takes awhile to be washed clean before it can get back on shore, so economic activity is lost in that space!. Plus when you look at huge multi nationals like say, apple, they have 400 billon off shore that they don't want to bring back because it would accrue tax!. That's 400 billon that's not very productive!. Trillions of dollars lies in unproductive purposes trying to avoid tax!... It's a catch 22 scenario | |||
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" I wouldn't argue with that point or those figures. However it does less harm economically speaking than large scale off shore tax avoidance. Nope, the figure £2,400,000,000 is actually very understated. It's refined to be more like £40,000,000,000 And is far, far more than dodgy offshore dealing as although the figures involved in the offshore stuff can be mind boggling to the general public there are very few people in a position to be able to do it. But the "black economy" of cash in hand tax avoidance is undertaken by virtually everyone one way or another. . You know why it's called a black economy???. Because it's still doing economic activity, it's in constant circulation accruing "tax" along its path, just not as much as it should, however even that is a misnomer because the total tax take is the same, they just bumped the rates up, to negate the bit that was lost!. Now when your doing off shore tax evasion by the extremely wealthy, this money goes off shore to be hidden (that's how they evade tax) it takes awhile to be washed clean before it can get back on shore, so economic activity is lost in that space!. Plus when you look at huge multi nationals like say, apple, they have 400 billon off shore that they don't want to bring back because it would accrue tax!. That's 400 billon that's not very productive!. Trillions of dollars lies in unproductive purposes trying to avoid tax!... It's a catch 22 scenario" Ah. So it's ok to avoid tax if you're going out and spending it on the razz that week, but if you're locking it up for a decade (in an ISA, for a mortgage for example) then you're as bad as the people using offshore accounts. | |||
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" Except for all the money which rich people spend in shops, restaurants, bars, with different businesses doing up their homes, on new cars, and all of that. They don't avoid tax just for the sake of it, it's so they can have a certain lifestyle. " So that makes it ok.  | |||
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" I wouldn't argue with that point or those figures. However it does less harm economically speaking than large scale off shore tax avoidance. Nope, the figure £2,400,000,000 is actually very understated. It's refined to be more like £40,000,000,000 And is far, far more than dodgy offshore dealing as although the figures involved in the offshore stuff can be mind boggling to the general public there are very few people in a position to be able to do it. But the "black economy" of cash in hand tax avoidance is undertaken by virtually everyone one way or another. . You know why it's called a black economy???. Because it's still doing economic activity, it's in constant circulation accruing "tax" along its path, just not as much as it should, however even that is a misnomer because the total tax take is the same, they just bumped the rates up, to negate the bit that was lost!. Now when your doing off shore tax evasion by the extremely wealthy, this money goes off shore to be hidden (that's how they evade tax) it takes awhile to be washed clean before it can get back on shore, so economic activity is lost in that space!. Plus when you look at huge multi nationals like say, apple, they have 400 billon off shore that they don't want to bring back because it would accrue tax!. That's 400 billon that's not very productive!. Trillions of dollars lies in unproductive purposes trying to avoid tax!... It's a catch 22 scenario Ah. So it's ok to avoid tax if you're going out and spending it on the razz that week, but if you're locking it up for a decade (in an ISA, for a mortgage for example) then you're as bad as the people using offshore accounts." your ISA investment is used by the financial institutions to investment in other stuff so it's still active within the economy unlike off shore money. | |||
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"As I'm paid a salary my tax is automatically deducted. I begrudge not one penny. If a local business man or trader wishes to be paid cash in hand I also have no problem. It's hardly billions. Taken in isolation, this is correct but when looked at Nationally the issue is enormous. It's not billions even nationally. " Hmm I'd punt at over a million doing this and avoiding at least a thousand each That equates to billions xxx | |||
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" I wouldn't argue with that point or those figures. However it does less harm economically speaking than large scale off shore tax avoidance. Nope, the figure £2,400,000,000 is actually very understated. It's refined to be more like £40,000,000,000 And is far, far more than dodgy offshore dealing as although the figures involved in the offshore stuff can be mind boggling to the general public there are very few people in a position to be able to do it. But the "black economy" of cash in hand tax avoidance is undertaken by virtually everyone one way or another. . You know why it's called a black economy???. Because it's still doing economic activity, it's in constant circulation accruing "tax" along its path, just not as much as it should, however even that is a misnomer because the total tax take is the same, they just bumped the rates up, to negate the bit that was lost!. Now when your doing off shore tax evasion by the extremely wealthy, this money goes off shore to be hidden (that's how they evade tax) it takes awhile to be washed clean before it can get back on shore, so economic activity is lost in that space!. Plus when you look at huge multi nationals like say, apple, they have 400 billon off shore that they don't want to bring back because it would accrue tax!. That's 400 billon that's not very productive!. Trillions of dollars lies in unproductive purposes trying to avoid tax!... It's a catch 22 scenario Ah. So it's ok to avoid tax if you're going out and spending it on the razz that week, but if you're locking it up for a decade (in an ISA, for a mortgage for example) then you're as bad as the people using offshore accounts." "razz" a word you plucked from somewhere to try and undermine a sensible point What is your vested interest in defending global corps ? | |||
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"The teeny amount from cash in hand is nothing compared to the £trillions that the major businesses and the very wealthy shuffle and hide. I don't have a trade that's open to cash in hand and more likely to be giving my services free of charge, when not studying." I would be keen to discover where you get the figure of £Trillions being lost to tax? HMRC estimate that the total tax gap is somewhere between £30-£35 billion and is at it lowest level ever. Of this amount... £4.4 billion is estimated to be illegally "evaded" £6.2 billion is the "black" economy It helps if you refer to formal publications rather than throw out a figure that is clearly a figment of your imagination. | |||
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" Except for all the money which rich people spend in shops, restaurants, bars, with different businesses doing up their homes, on new cars, and all of that. They don't avoid tax just for the sake of it, it's so they can have a certain lifestyle. So that makes it ok. "No of course it doesn't but people are arguing that it's completely lost to the economy compared to the tax lost from cash in hand work which is spent in the economy and I don't think that's true. I was correcting a specific point. They are both bad, people seem to think one kind of evasion is bad and another is alright because the people aren't rich. It foenst work like that. It's either bad or it isn't, not bad if one person does it and ok when another does. | |||
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"The teeny amount from cash in hand is nothing compared to the £trillions that the major businesses and the very wealthy shuffle and hide. I don't have a trade that's open to cash in hand and more likely to be giving my services free of charge, when not studying. I would be keen to discover where you get the figure of £Trillions being lost to tax? HMRC estimate that the total tax gap is somewhere between £30-£35 billion and is at it lowest level ever. Of this amount... £4.4 billion is estimated to be illegally "evaded" £6.2 billion is the "black" economy It helps if you refer to formal publications rather than throw out a figure that is clearly a figment of your imagination. " I agree on the imaginary stats. Although to be fair the govt does that all the time. The 4.4 billion that is illegally evaded is lost to the economy full stop. The 6.2 billion still circulates in the economy and therefore at some point tax is paid on it. | |||
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" I wouldn't argue with that point or those figures. However it does less harm economically speaking than large scale off shore tax avoidance. Nope, the figure £2,400,000,000 is actually very understated. It's refined to be more like £40,000,000,000 And is far, far more than dodgy offshore dealing as although the figures involved in the offshore stuff can be mind boggling to the general public there are very few people in a position to be able to do it. But the "black economy" of cash in hand tax avoidance is undertaken by virtually everyone one way or another. . You know why it's called a black economy???. Because it's still doing economic activity, it's in constant circulation accruing "tax" along its path, just not as much as it should, however even that is a misnomer because the total tax take is the same, they just bumped the rates up, to negate the bit that was lost!. Now when your doing off shore tax evasion by the extremely wealthy, this money goes off shore to be hidden (that's how they evade tax) it takes awhile to be washed clean before it can get back on shore, so economic activity is lost in that space!. Plus when you look at huge multi nationals like say, apple, they have 400 billon off shore that they don't want to bring back because it would accrue tax!. That's 400 billon that's not very productive!. Trillions of dollars lies in unproductive purposes trying to avoid tax!... It's a catch 22 scenario Ah. So it's ok to avoid tax if you're going out and spending it on the razz that week, but if you're locking it up for a decade (in an ISA, for a mortgage for example) then you're as bad as the people using offshore accounts. your ISA investment is used by the financial institutions to investment in other stuff so it's still active within the economy unlike off shore money." What about if I hide it under my mattress? | |||
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" I wouldn't argue with that point or those figures. However it does less harm economically speaking than large scale off shore tax avoidance. Nope, the figure £2,400,000,000 is actually very understated. It's refined to be more like £40,000,000,000 And is far, far more than dodgy offshore dealing as although the figures involved in the offshore stuff can be mind boggling to the general public there are very few people in a position to be able to do it. But the "black economy" of cash in hand tax avoidance is undertaken by virtually everyone one way or another. . You know why it's called a black economy???. Because it's still doing economic activity, it's in constant circulation accruing "tax" along its path, just not as much as it should, however even that is a misnomer because the total tax take is the same, they just bumped the rates up, to negate the bit that was lost!. Now when your doing off shore tax evasion by the extremely wealthy, this money goes off shore to be hidden (that's how they evade tax) it takes awhile to be washed clean before it can get back on shore, so economic activity is lost in that space!. Plus when you look at huge multi nationals like say, apple, they have 400 billon off shore that they don't want to bring back because it would accrue tax!. That's 400 billon that's not very productive!. Trillions of dollars lies in unproductive purposes trying to avoid tax!... It's a catch 22 scenario Ah. So it's ok to avoid tax if you're going out and spending it on the razz that week, but if you're locking it up for a decade (in an ISA, for a mortgage for example) then you're as bad as the people using offshore accounts." . I didn't say that did I though, you did!. I'm trying to point out how one impacts a system to greater detriment than another!. Morally worse, maybe. Physically worse, yes | |||
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" I wouldn't argue with that point or those figures. However it does less harm economically speaking than large scale off shore tax avoidance. Nope, the figure £2,400,000,000 is actually very understated. It's refined to be more like £40,000,000,000 And is far, far more than dodgy offshore dealing as although the figures involved in the offshore stuff can be mind boggling to the general public there are very few people in a position to be able to do it. But the "black economy" of cash in hand tax avoidance is undertaken by virtually everyone one way or another. . You know why it's called a black economy???. Because it's still doing economic activity, it's in constant circulation accruing "tax" along its path, just not as much as it should, however even that is a misnomer because the total tax take is the same, they just bumped the rates up, to negate the bit that was lost!. Now when your doing off shore tax evasion by the extremely wealthy, this money goes off shore to be hidden (that's how they evade tax) it takes awhile to be washed clean before it can get back on shore, so economic activity is lost in that space!. Plus when you look at huge multi nationals like say, apple, they have 400 billon off shore that they don't want to bring back because it would accrue tax!. That's 400 billon that's not very productive!. Trillions of dollars lies in unproductive purposes trying to avoid tax!... It's a catch 22 scenario Ah. So it's ok to avoid tax if you're going out and spending it on the razz that week, but if you're locking it up for a decade (in an ISA, for a mortgage for example) then you're as bad as the people using offshore accounts."razz" a word you plucked from somewhere to try and undermine a sensible point What is your vested interest in defending global corps ?""Out on the razz" is British English slang for 'going out drinking and enjoying yourself'. I'm not trying to defend 'global corps', I'm just pointing out that it's either all legal, or it's all not. Avoiding tax at a local level is no different to avoiding tax at an offshore level. It's all tax avoidance. ISAs are tax avoidance. Transferring your unused tax allowance to your spouse is tax avoidance. Childcare benefits are tax avoidance. They are all legal ways of avoiding tax. | |||
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" Except for all the money which rich people spend in shops, restaurants, bars, with different businesses doing up their homes, on new cars, and all of that. They don't avoid tax just for the sake of it, it's so they can have a certain lifestyle. So that makes it ok.
No of course it doesn't but people are arguing that it's completely lost to the economy compared to the tax lost from cash in hand work which is spent in the economy and I don't think that's true. I was correcting a specific point. They are both bad, people seem to think one kind of evasion is bad and another is alright because the people aren't rich. It foenst work like that. It's either bad or it isn't, not bad if one person does it and ok when another does. "Its bad regardless however the government seem to have one rule for the rich and one for the working class. (No difference than most policies) | |||
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" Its bad regardless however the government seem to have one rule for the rich and one for the working class. (No difference than most policies)" I quite agree with you. If the government close down all the offshore tax loopholes that rich people use then they should also make sure that they close down all the tax avoidance schemes in place that those less well off use. | |||
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" I wouldn't argue with that point or those figures. However it does less harm economically speaking than large scale off shore tax avoidance. Nope, the figure £2,400,000,000 is actually very understated. It's refined to be more like £40,000,000,000 And is far, far more than dodgy offshore dealing as although the figures involved in the offshore stuff can be mind boggling to the general public there are very few people in a position to be able to do it. But the "black economy" of cash in hand tax avoidance is undertaken by virtually everyone one way or another. . You know why it's called a black economy???. Because it's still doing economic activity, it's in constant circulation accruing "tax" along its path, just not as much as it should, however even that is a misnomer because the total tax take is the same, they just bumped the rates up, to negate the bit that was lost!. Now when your doing off shore tax evasion by the extremely wealthy, this money goes off shore to be hidden (that's how they evade tax) it takes awhile to be washed clean before it can get back on shore, so economic activity is lost in that space!. Plus when you look at huge multi nationals like say, apple, they have 400 billon off shore that they don't want to bring back because it would accrue tax!. That's 400 billon that's not very productive!. Trillions of dollars lies in unproductive purposes trying to avoid tax!... It's a catch 22 scenario Ah. So it's ok to avoid tax if you're going out and spending it on the razz that week, but if you're locking it up for a decade (in an ISA, for a mortgage for example) then you're as bad as the people using offshore accounts."razz" a word you plucked from somewhere to try and undermine a sensible point What is your vested interest in defending global corps ?
"Out on the razz" is British English slang for 'going out drinking and enjoying yourself'.
I'm not trying to defend 'global corps', I'm just pointing out that it's either all legal, or it's all not. Avoiding tax at a local level is no different to avoiding tax at an offshore level. It's all tax avoidance.
ISAs are tax avoidance.
Transferring your unused tax allowance to your spouse is tax avoidance.
Childcare benefits are tax avoidance.
They are all legal ways of avoiding tax. "Lmao Im well aware of what on the "razz" means. You used it in a negative context. Trying to paint anyone who has worked cash in hand to be some dishonest piss head lush. That isnt how the black economy works and cash in hand and tax avoidance /evasion by corps are two completely different things entirely . The reasons why they are different has been pointed out a number of times on this thread. | |||
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" I wouldn't argue with that point or those figures. However it does less harm economically speaking than large scale off shore tax avoidance. Nope, the figure £2,400,000,000 is actually very understated. It's refined to be more like £40,000,000,000 And is far, far more than dodgy offshore dealing as although the figures involved in the offshore stuff can be mind boggling to the general public there are very few people in a position to be able to do it. But the "black economy" of cash in hand tax avoidance is undertaken by virtually everyone one way or another. . You know why it's called a black economy???. Because it's still doing economic activity, it's in constant circulation accruing "tax" along its path, just not as much as it should, however even that is a misnomer because the total tax take is the same, they just bumped the rates up, to negate the bit that was lost!. Now when your doing off shore tax evasion by the extremely wealthy, this money goes off shore to be hidden (that's how they evade tax) it takes awhile to be washed clean before it can get back on shore, so economic activity is lost in that space!. Plus when you look at huge multi nationals like say, apple, they have 400 billon off shore that they don't want to bring back because it would accrue tax!. That's 400 billon that's not very productive!. Trillions of dollars lies in unproductive purposes trying to avoid tax!... It's a catch 22 scenario Ah. So it's ok to avoid tax if you're going out and spending it on the razz that week, but if you're locking it up for a decade (in an ISA, for a mortgage for example) then you're as bad as the people using offshore accounts. your ISA investment is used by the financial institutions to investment in other stuff so it's still active within the economy unlike off shore money. What about if I hide it under my mattress?" . Well funnily enough they've already started to address that issue by removing high value notes, although the BOE have stated there'd like a cashless society | |||
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" Its bad regardless however the government seem to have one rule for the rich and one for the working class. (No difference than most policies) I quite agree with you. If the government close down all the offshore tax loopholes that rich people use then they should also make sure that they close down all the tax avoidance schemes in place that those less well off use." . I just posted on that point | |||
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" I wouldn't argue with that point or those figures. However it does less harm economically speaking than large scale off shore tax avoidance. Nope, the figure £2,400,000,000 is actually very understated. It's refined to be more like £40,000,000,000 And is far, far more than dodgy offshore dealing as although the figures involved in the offshore stuff can be mind boggling to the general public there are very few people in a position to be able to do it. But the "black economy" of cash in hand tax avoidance is undertaken by virtually everyone one way or another. . You know why it's called a black economy???. Because it's still doing economic activity, it's in constant circulation accruing "tax" along its path, just not as much as it should, however even that is a misnomer because the total tax take is the same, they just bumped the rates up, to negate the bit that was lost!. Now when your doing off shore tax evasion by the extremely wealthy, this money goes off shore to be hidden (that's how they evade tax) it takes awhile to be washed clean before it can get back on shore, so economic activity is lost in that space!. Plus when you look at huge multi nationals like say, apple, they have 400 billon off shore that they don't want to bring back because it would accrue tax!. That's 400 billon that's not very productive!. Trillions of dollars lies in unproductive purposes trying to avoid tax!... It's a catch 22 scenario Ah. So it's ok to avoid tax if you're going out and spending it on the razz that week, but if you're locking it up for a decade (in an ISA, for a mortgage for example) then you're as bad as the people using offshore accounts."razz" a word you plucked from somewhere to try and undermine a sensible point What is your vested interest in defending global corps ?
"Out on the razz" is British English slang for 'going out drinking and enjoying yourself'.
I'm not trying to defend 'global corps', I'm just pointing out that it's either all legal, or it's all not. Avoiding tax at a local level is no different to avoiding tax at an offshore level. It's all tax avoidance.
ISAs are tax avoidance.
Transferring your unused tax allowance to your spouse is tax avoidance.
Childcare benefits are tax avoidance.
They are all legal ways of avoiding tax. Lmao Im well aware of what on the "razz" means. You used it in a negative context. Trying to paint anyone who has worked cash in hand to be some dishonest piss head lush. That isnt how the black economy works and cash in hand and tax avoidance /evasion by corps are two completely different things entirely . The reasons why they are different has been pointed out a number of times on this thread."Your point appeared to be that as long as people were spending their money then it's ok to avoid paying tax where they can. Your point appeared to be that locking it away and not letting anyone else use that money somehow makes tax avoidance morally wrong. So basically what you appeared to be saying was that a plumber who saves a grand a year and spends it on going out on the piss with their mates is alright, but a plumber who saves a grand a year and puts it under their matress to save up for something long term isn't alright. | |||
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"The teeny amount from cash in hand is nothing compared to the £trillions that the major businesses and the very wealthy shuffle and hide. I don't have a trade that's open to cash in hand and more likely to be giving my services free of charge, when not studying. I would be keen to discover where you get the figure of £Trillions being lost to tax? HMRC estimate that the total tax gap is somewhere between £30-£35 billion and is at it lowest level ever. Of this amount... £4.4 billion is estimated to be illegally "evaded" £6.2 billion is the "black" economy It helps if you refer to formal publications rather than throw out a figure that is clearly a figment of your imagination. " . That wouldn't include firms like Facebook paying 6000 in tax despite revenue in the UK of billions though would it? | |||
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" I wouldn't argue with that point or those figures. However it does less harm economically speaking than large scale off shore tax avoidance. Nope, the figure £2,400,000,000 is actually very understated. It's refined to be more like £40,000,000,000 And is far, far more than dodgy offshore dealing as although the figures involved in the offshore stuff can be mind boggling to the general public there are very few people in a position to be able to do it. But the "black economy" of cash in hand tax avoidance is undertaken by virtually everyone one way or another. . You know why it's called a black economy???. Because it's still doing economic activity, it's in constant circulation accruing "tax" along its path, just not as much as it should, however even that is a misnomer because the total tax take is the same, they just bumped the rates up, to negate the bit that was lost!. Now when your doing off shore tax evasion by the extremely wealthy, this money goes off shore to be hidden (that's how they evade tax) it takes awhile to be washed clean before it can get back on shore, so economic activity is lost in that space!. Plus when you look at huge multi nationals like say, apple, they have 400 billon off shore that they don't want to bring back because it would accrue tax!. That's 400 billon that's not very productive!. Trillions of dollars lies in unproductive purposes trying to avoid tax!... It's a catch 22 scenario Ah. So it's ok to avoid tax if you're going out and spending it on the razz that week, but if you're locking it up for a decade (in an ISA, for a mortgage for example) then you're as bad as the people using offshore accounts."razz" a word you plucked from somewhere to try and undermine a sensible point What is your vested interest in defending global corps ?
"Out on the razz" is British English slang for 'going out drinking and enjoying yourself'.
I'm not trying to defend 'global corps', I'm just pointing out that it's either all legal, or it's all not. Avoiding tax at a local level is no different to avoiding tax at an offshore level. It's all tax avoidance.
ISAs are tax avoidance.
Transferring your unused tax allowance to your spouse is tax avoidance.
Childcare benefits are tax avoidance.
They are all legal ways of avoiding tax. Lmao Im well aware of what on the "razz" means. You used it in a negative context. Trying to paint anyone who has worked cash in hand to be some dishonest piss head lush. That isnt how the black economy works and cash in hand and tax avoidance /evasion by corps are two completely different things entirely . The reasons why they are different has been pointed out a number of times on this thread.
Your point appeared to be that as long as people were spending their money then it's ok to avoid paying tax where they can.
Your point appeared to be that locking it away and not letting anyone else use that money somehow makes tax avoidance morally wrong.
So basically what you appeared to be saying was that a plumber who saves a grand a year and spends it on going out on the piss with their mates is alright, but a plumber who saves a grand a year and puts it under their matress to save up for something long term isn't alright."Yeah you are absolutely right all we ever do is go on the piss. I have no idea what the point of you is. | |||
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" I wouldn't argue with that point or those figures. However it does less harm economically speaking than large scale off shore tax avoidance. Nope, the figure £2,400,000,000 is actually very understated. It's refined to be more like £40,000,000,000 And is far, far more than dodgy offshore dealing as although the figures involved in the offshore stuff can be mind boggling to the general public there are very few people in a position to be able to do it. But the "black economy" of cash in hand tax avoidance is undertaken by virtually everyone one way or another. . You know why it's called a black economy???. Because it's still doing economic activity, it's in constant circulation accruing "tax" along its path, just not as much as it should, however even that is a misnomer because the total tax take is the same, they just bumped the rates up, to negate the bit that was lost!. Now when your doing off shore tax evasion by the extremely wealthy, this money goes off shore to be hidden (that's how they evade tax) it takes awhile to be washed clean before it can get back on shore, so economic activity is lost in that space!. Plus when you look at huge multi nationals like say, apple, they have 400 billon off shore that they don't want to bring back because it would accrue tax!. That's 400 billon that's not very productive!. Trillions of dollars lies in unproductive purposes trying to avoid tax!... It's a catch 22 scenario Ah. So it's ok to avoid tax if you're going out and spending it on the razz that week, but if you're locking it up for a decade (in an ISA, for a mortgage for example) then you're as bad as the people using offshore accounts."razz" a word you plucked from somewhere to try and undermine a sensible point What is your vested interest in defending global corps ?
"Out on the razz" is British English slang for 'going out drinking and enjoying yourself'.
I'm not trying to defend 'global corps', I'm just pointing out that it's either all legal, or it's all not. Avoiding tax at a local level is no different to avoiding tax at an offshore level. It's all tax avoidance.
ISAs are tax avoidance.
Transferring your unused tax allowance to your spouse is tax avoidance.
Childcare benefits are tax avoidance.
They are all legal ways of avoiding tax. Lmao Im well aware of what on the "razz" means. You used it in a negative context. Trying to paint anyone who has worked cash in hand to be some dishonest piss head lush. That isnt how the black economy works and cash in hand and tax avoidance /evasion by corps are two completely different things entirely . The reasons why they are different has been pointed out a number of times on this thread.
Your point appeared to be that as long as people were spending their money then it's ok to avoid paying tax where they can.
Your point appeared to be that locking it away and not letting anyone else use that money somehow makes tax avoidance morally wrong.
So basically what you appeared to be saying was that a plumber who saves a grand a year and spends it on going out on the piss with their mates is alright, but a plumber who saves a grand a year and puts it under their matress to save up for something long term isn't alright.". Well if he did spend it all getting pissed then that would be great for the exchequer as he'd get 85% in tax | |||
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"I'm a salaried electrician for a maintenance company, but do cash in hand jobs for family and friends. Pays for me to go on holiday a couple of times a year, and a few beers. Couldn't give a fuck what anyone on their high horse thinks." | |||
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"What about if I hide it under my mattress?" i don't care what you do with your lucre but using ISAs in your argument as a comparison is a bad example | |||
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" I wouldn't argue with that point or those figures. However it does less harm economically speaking than large scale off shore tax avoidance. Nope, the figure £2,400,000,000 is actually very understated. It's refined to be more like £40,000,000,000 And is far, far more than dodgy offshore dealing as although the figures involved in the offshore stuff can be mind boggling to the general public there are very few people in a position to be able to do it. But the "black economy" of cash in hand tax avoidance is undertaken by virtually everyone one way or another. . You know why it's called a black economy???. Because it's still doing economic activity, it's in constant circulation accruing "tax" along its path, just not as much as it should, however even that is a misnomer because the total tax take is the same, they just bumped the rates up, to negate the bit that was lost!. Now when your doing off shore tax evasion by the extremely wealthy, this money goes off shore to be hidden (that's how they evade tax) it takes awhile to be washed clean before it can get back on shore, so economic activity is lost in that space!. Plus when you look at huge multi nationals like say, apple, they have 400 billon off shore that they don't want to bring back because it would accrue tax!. That's 400 billon that's not very productive!. Trillions of dollars lies in unproductive purposes trying to avoid tax!... It's a catch 22 scenario Ah. So it's ok to avoid tax if you're going out and spending it on the razz that week, but if you're locking it up for a decade (in an ISA, for a mortgage for example) then you're as bad as the people using offshore accounts."razz" a word you plucked from somewhere to try and undermine a sensible point What is your vested interest in defending global corps ?
"Out on the razz" is British English slang for 'going out drinking and enjoying yourself'.
I'm not trying to defend 'global corps', I'm just pointing out that it's either all legal, or it's all not. Avoiding tax at a local level is no different to avoiding tax at an offshore level. It's all tax avoidance.
ISAs are tax avoidance.
Transferring your unused tax allowance to your spouse is tax avoidance.
Childcare benefits are tax avoidance.
They are all legal ways of avoiding tax. Lmao Im well aware of what on the "razz" means. You used it in a negative context. Trying to paint anyone who has worked cash in hand to be some dishonest piss head lush. That isnt how the black economy works and cash in hand and tax avoidance /evasion by corps are two completely different things entirely . The reasons why they are different has been pointed out a number of times on this thread.
Your point appeared to be that as long as people were spending their money then it's ok to avoid paying tax where they can.
Your point appeared to be that locking it away and not letting anyone else use that money somehow makes tax avoidance morally wrong.
So basically what you appeared to be saying was that a plumber who saves a grand a year and spends it on going out on the piss with their mates is alright, but a plumber who saves a grand a year and puts it under their matress to save up for something long term isn't alright.
Yeah you are absolutely right all we ever do is go on the piss. I have no idea what the point of you is."Ok, substitute 'go on the piss' with 'buys a new bike', or 'purchases some DVD's, or 'gets a new computer', 'or goes on holiday'. And you don't know what the point of me is? That's pretty fucking rude to say to another human to be honest. | |||
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"What about if I hide it under my mattress? i don't care what you do with your lucre but using ISAs in your argument as a comparison is a bad example" Ok, so what about if I'm hiding it under my mattress? Does that make me as bad as the offshore tax avoiders? | |||
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"The teeny amount from cash in hand is nothing compared to the £trillions that the major businesses and the very wealthy shuffle and hide. I don't have a trade that's open to cash in hand and more likely to be giving my services free of charge, when not studying. I would be keen to discover where you get the figure of £Trillions being lost to tax? HMRC estimate that the total tax gap is somewhere between £30-£35 billion and is at it lowest level ever. Of this amount... £4.4 billion is estimated to be illegally "evaded" £6.2 billion is the "black" economy It helps if you refer to formal publications rather than throw out a figure that is clearly a figment of your imagination. . That wouldn't include firms like Facebook paying 6000 in tax despite revenue in the UK of billions though would it?" Instead of guessing, why don't you read the annual HMRC publication about the tax gap and then instead of thinking or suggesting... You would know. | |||
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"What about if I hide it under my mattress? i don't care what you do with your lucre but using ISAs in your argument as a comparison is a bad example Ok, so what about if I'm hiding it under my mattress? Does that make me as bad as the offshore tax avoiders?" which part of " I don't care what you do with your lucre" didn't you understand? | |||
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"The teeny amount from cash in hand is nothing compared to the £trillions that the major businesses and the very wealthy shuffle and hide. I don't have a trade that's open to cash in hand and more likely to be giving my services free of charge, when not studying. I would be keen to discover where you get the figure of £Trillions being lost to tax? HMRC estimate that the total tax gap is somewhere between £30-£35 billion and is at it lowest level ever. Of this amount... £4.4 billion is estimated to be illegally "evaded" £6.2 billion is the "black" economy It helps if you refer to formal publications rather than throw out a figure that is clearly a figment of your imagination. . That wouldn't include firms like Facebook paying 6000 in tax despite revenue in the UK of billions though would it? Instead of guessing, why don't you read the annual HMRC publication about the tax gap and then instead of thinking or suggesting... You would know." . I thought you'd read it as you'd posted it, I was asking a question.. Hence the question mark?. | |||
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"What about if I hide it under my mattress? i don't care what you do with your lucre but using ISAs in your argument as a comparison is a bad example Ok, so what about if I'm hiding it under my mattress? Does that make me as bad as the offshore tax avoiders? which part of " I don't care what you do with your lucre" didn't you understand?" My apologies, I thought it was yourself that I was replying to previously. | |||
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"The teeny amount from cash in hand is nothing compared to the £trillions that the major businesses and the very wealthy shuffle and hide. I don't have a trade that's open to cash in hand and more likely to be giving my services free of charge, when not studying. I would be keen to discover where you get the figure of £Trillions being lost to tax? HMRC estimate that the total tax gap is somewhere between £30-£35 billion and is at it lowest level ever. Of this amount... £4.4 billion is estimated to be illegally "evaded" £6.2 billion is the "black" economy It helps if you refer to formal publications rather than throw out a figure that is clearly a figment of your imagination. . That wouldn't include firms like Facebook paying 6000 in tax despite revenue in the UK of billions though would it? Instead of guessing, why don't you read the annual HMRC publication about the tax gap and then instead of thinking or suggesting... You would know.. I thought you'd read it as you'd posted it, I was asking a question.. Hence the question mark?. " . No... Ok. I'll answer it for you! .
Nope it doesn't include it | |||
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"What about if I hide it under my mattress? i don't care what you do with your lucre but using ISAs in your argument as a comparison is a bad example Ok, so what about if I'm hiding it under my mattress? Does that make me as bad as the offshore tax avoiders?" . You've criminally obtained money and then your waiting for more criminal activity to relieve you of the money you've criminally obtained... I'm not sure what that makes you to be honest | |||
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"The teeny amount from cash in hand is nothing compared to the £trillions that the major businesses and the very wealthy shuffle and hide. I don't have a trade that's open to cash in hand and more likely to be giving my services free of charge, when not studying. I would be keen to discover where you get the figure of £Trillions being lost to tax? HMRC estimate that the total tax gap is somewhere between £30-£35 billion and is at it lowest level ever. Of this amount... £4.4 billion is estimated to be illegally "evaded" £6.2 billion is the "black" economy It helps if you refer to formal publications rather than throw out a figure that is clearly a figment of your imagination. . That wouldn't include firms like Facebook paying 6000 in tax despite revenue in the UK of billions though would it? Instead of guessing, why don't you read the annual HMRC publication about the tax gap and then instead of thinking or suggesting... You would know.. I thought you'd read it as you'd posted it, I was asking a question.. Hence the question mark?. " HMRC can only work within the framework of the tax laws that our Parliament have passed. Unfortunately, our tax laws are amongst the most complicated in the world and in dire need of simplification. Corporation Tax is a completely pointless tax in a globalised economy but it seems to be proving to be difficult to change for some reason. Corporation Tax could and should be abolished and replaced with a small transaction tax that is applied quarterly and retrospectively on the turnover of that business. The mechanism to record and collect is already in place (VAT) and this means that every transaction that occurs in the UK or involves UK residents will make a contribution to HMRC. Alternatively, just get rid of Corporation Tax full stop as it has no place in a globalised economy. | |||
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"I'm a salaried electrician for a maintenance company, but do cash in hand jobs for family and friends. Pays for me to go on holiday a couple of times a year, and a few beers. Couldn't give a fuck what anyone on their high horse thinks. "No one is on their high horse - but if your one of them who is slagging politicians etc off for avoiding tax then you'd be a hypocrite | |||
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"ive paid the guy who cuts my grass cash in hand.. always have done " This doesn't mean he doesn't declare it. 90% of my work is paid for in cash - I can honestly say that I declare every penny | |||
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"The teeny amount from cash in hand is nothing compared to the £trillions that the major businesses and the very wealthy shuffle and hide. I don't have a trade that's open to cash in hand and more likely to be giving my services free of charge, when not studying. I would be keen to discover where you get the figure of £Trillions being lost to tax? HMRC estimate that the total tax gap is somewhere between £30-£35 billion and is at it lowest level ever. Of this amount... £4.4 billion is estimated to be illegally "evaded" £6.2 billion is the "black" economy It helps if you refer to formal publications rather than throw out a figure that is clearly a figment of your imagination. . That wouldn't include firms like Facebook paying 6000 in tax despite revenue in the UK of billions though would it? Instead of guessing, why don't you read the annual HMRC publication about the tax gap and then instead of thinking or suggesting... You would know.. I thought you'd read it as you'd posted it, I was asking a question.. Hence the question mark?. HMRC can only work within the framework of the tax laws that our Parliament have passed. Unfortunately, our tax laws are amongst the most complicated in the world and in dire need of simplification. Corporation Tax is a completely pointless tax in a globalised economy but it seems to be proving to be difficult to change for some reason. Corporation Tax could and should be abolished and replaced with a small transaction tax that is applied quarterly and retrospectively on the turnover of that business. The mechanism to record and collect is already in place (VAT) and this means that every transaction that occurs in the UK or involves UK residents will make a contribution to HMRC. Alternatively, just get rid of Corporation Tax full stop as it has no place in a globalised economy." . Well... They could just bundle up many transactions into one transaction and then they only pay pennies!. Vat is the most fiddled fraudulent tax going, if you want to abandon a tax, it's vat. CT was there originally to encourage corporations to reinvest profits into the business and stop short-termism | |||
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"Ok a simple example a builder does a job for let's say £500 cash couple of days work has materials left over from another job worth approx £60 which he has bought for the previous job from the local merchant So the materials have been paid for profit from merchant goes into tax & then the economy all good so far Then the builder does the work client is happy no Vat asked for or even mentioned Client pays the builder £500 cash Builder goes out spends a bit in the local pub least say £50 Then decides to put x2 new tyres on van pays cash approx £120 Now left with £330 Gives £50 to the kids who fill up with fuel Left with £280 bits a new Tv for £250 Then with the final £30 buys a takeaway all money gone into local economy where the Petrol station Local pub Local electronics store Local chinese Will pay tax The black economy helps the economy surely ? " No. Without the "cash in hand" aspect everything you described about the builder spending his £500 would happen just the same. But he would have charged £600 and given £100 to the govt in tax. How can this be any more obvious? | |||
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"Ok a simple example a builder does a job for let's say £500 cash couple of days work has materials left over from another job worth approx £60 which he has bought for the previous job from the local merchant So the materials have been paid for profit from merchant goes into tax & then the economy all good so far Then the builder does the work client is happy no Vat asked for or even mentioned Client pays the builder £500 cash Builder goes out spends a bit in the local pub least say £50 Then decides to put x2 new tyres on van pays cash approx £120 Now left with £330 Gives £50 to the kids who fill up with fuel Left with £280 bits a new Tv for £250 Then with the final £30 buys a takeaway all money gone into local economy where the Petrol station Local pub Local electronics store Local chinese Will pay tax The black economy helps the economy surely ? No. Without the "cash in hand" aspect everything you described about the builder spending his £500 would happen just the same. But he would have charged £600 and given £100 to the govt in tax. How can this be any more obvious?" My point is the builder has earned £500 cash he can't pay into the bank as its then traceable so he spends it as above as far as the taxman is concerned he didn't work for those x2 days | |||
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"As I'm paid a salary my tax is automatically deducted. I begrudge not one penny. If a local business man or trader wishes to be paid cash in hand I also have no problem. It's hardly billions. Taken in isolation, this is correct but when looked at Nationally the issue is enormous. " That was the point of starting the thread. We have no right to criticise how others run their finances and avoid tax if we participate in avoidance ourselves. Wanting everything cheap has a cost. | |||
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" My point is the builder has earned £500 cash he can't pay into the bank as its then traceable so he spends it as above as far as the taxman is concerned he didn't work for those x2 days " Your point is the builder went to work, earned £500 and then didn't pay any I come tax on it. It makes no difference what he spent it on. Everyone else pays a percentage of their earnings in tax for the benefit of society bit by taking cash in hand this builder has not yet he still benefits form all that society provides for him and his family. So how is that fair on those who do pay for the services? | |||
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"I am not smart enough to outwit the tax man, so invoice and paid into the bank for me
Good for you.
Me too. The roofer I have coming this week was a little shocked I insisted on paying the VAT. He asked if I work for HMRC. "I dare you to say "yes, I head up the [Way over Yonder] branch of their tax investigation department. He might be so shit-scared he'll offer you a discount.
The slater we use is long past retirement age, so I nearly fell over backwards when he asked to be paid via an App. He said it saves him time going to the bank.
I don't care how people pay, but I declare every penny because the threat of a tax investigation is just too much hassle.
Mr ddc | |||
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"Ok a simple example a builder does a job for let's say £500 cash couple of days work has materials left over from another job worth approx £60 which he has bought for the previous job from the local merchant So the materials have been paid for profit from merchant goes into tax & then the economy all good so far Then the builder does the work client is happy no Vat asked for or even mentioned Client pays the builder £500 cash Builder goes out spends a bit in the local pub least say £50 Then decides to put x2 new tyres on van pays cash approx £120 Now left with £330 Gives £50 to the kids who fill up with fuel Left with £280 bits a new Tv for £250 Then with the final £30 buys a takeaway all money gone into local economy where the Petrol station Local pub Local electronics store Local chinese Will pay tax The black economy helps the economy surely ? No. Without the "cash in hand" aspect everything you described about the builder spending his £500 would happen just the same. But he would have charged £600 and given £100 to the govt in tax. How can this be any more obvious?" . So we've made it this far!. Now let's apply the same CT tax rate the builder uses as to what Facebook paid, I think it was 6k on 2 billon revenue. So the builder would only pay 0.001 pence tax!. Now do you see how unfair tax systems benefit the wealthy | |||
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" So we've made it this far!. Now let's apply the same CT tax rate the builder uses as to what Facebook paid, I think it was 6k on 2 billon revenue. So the builder would only pay 0.001 pence tax!. Now do you see how unfair tax systems benefit the wealthy" The tax system is unfairly skewed. We all pay tax, even children, even if you don't earn, because so much has duty/VAT added to it. Those that have VAT registration and can off-set their VAT payments can work a trick that the employed can't. It's been interesting to read the comments on this thread. | |||
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". So we've made it this far!. Now let's apply the same CT tax rate the builder uses as to what Facebook paid, I think it was 6k on 2 billon revenue. So the builder would only pay 0.001 pence tax!. Now do you see how unfair tax systems benefit the wealthy" Your hardly teaching anyone a lesson here! Yes, unfair tax system benefit some big businesses and dodgy welathy individuals. That does not make it ok for everyone to simply do as they please. By your logic some people get away with armed robbery so we should just ignore burglars and shoplifters. | |||
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" Now let's apply the same CT tax rate the builder uses as to what Facebook paid, I think it was 6k on 2 billon revenue. So the builder would only pay 0.001 pence tax!. Now do you see how unfair tax systems benefit the wealthy" This is not correct because you are not comparing like for like. Wealthy tax payers more than contribute their "fare share" - and some. It is not the fault of Google, Amazon, Facebook and others that the host countries have not got a workable mechanism for dealing with multinationals and their tax affairs. That said, I think there is an EU taskforce being set up today to deal with this exact issue. | |||
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"I'm a salaried electrician for a maintenance company, but do cash in hand jobs for family and friends. Pays for me to go on holiday a couple of times a year, and a few beers. Couldn't give a fuck what anyone on their high horse thinks.
No one is on their high horse - but if your one of them who is slagging politicians etc off for avoiding tax then you'd be a hypocrite "I'm not slagging them, they've done nowt illegal. | |||
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" Now let's apply the same CT tax rate the builder uses as to what Facebook paid, I think it was 6k on 2 billon revenue. So the builder would only pay 0.001 pence tax!. Now do you see how unfair tax systems benefit the wealthy This is not correct because you are not comparing like for like. Wealthy tax payers more than contribute their "fare share" - and some. It is not the fault of Google, Amazon, Facebook and others that the host countries have not got a workable mechanism for dealing with multinationals and their tax affairs. That said, I think there is an EU taskforce being set up today to deal with this exact issue." There is. It's affecting them all now. | |||
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" Wealthy tax payers more than contribute their "fare share" - and some. " that's a statement of biased conjecture with no basis in fact | |||
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" Now let's apply the same CT tax rate the builder uses as to what Facebook paid, I think it was 6k on 2 billon revenue. So the builder would only pay 0.001 pence tax!. Now do you see how unfair tax systems benefit the wealthy This is not correct because you are not comparing like for like. Wealthy tax payers more than contribute their "fare share" - and some. It is not the fault of Google, Amazon, Facebook and others that the host countries have not got a workable mechanism for dealing with multinationals and their tax affairs. That said, I think there is an EU taskforce being set up today to deal with this exact issue." . Then you seriously would have to ask why the G8 haven't got a workable system in place in... What, 40 fucking years.I mean Margret Thatcher removed capital controls in 1979 for christs sake, it really shouldn't come as a giant shock to them?? . . I've said it before... There's nothing wrong with capitalism as a working system, It's the effect it has on the average Joe that's going to kill it. It puts all the power in the hands of a few and those few will look after themselves regardless of whether they're actions inevitably kill the system... Look what the very few top 0.01% bankers did to the banking system, their greed caused it's destruction!. . You can either tackle the problems now while things are relatively stable or you can tackle them after the system collapses... I'm just saying the latter will be more problematic | |||
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"A 50 trillion global gdp and shrinking don't work on a 250 trillion global debt thats increasing!.... As Andy duframe said while tunneling out with a rock hammer....It's just a matter of time and pressure" Jeez - he had to wade through the sewage pipes ! | |||
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" Wealthy tax payers more than contribute their "fare share" - and some. that's a statement of biased conjecture with no basis in fact" 40%-45% tax take on all earned and unearned income is more than a fair share of share of tax! No bias, no conjecture and factual. According to the most recent IFS statistics in respect of the UK tax take from income tax. Top 1% of earners contribute 27% of the tax take Top 10% of earners contribute 59% of the tax take Top 50% contribute 90% of the tax take. In other words, the lowest 50% of income tax payers contribute only 10% of the overall income tax take. | |||
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" Wealthy tax payers more than contribute their "fare share" - and some. that's a statement of biased conjecture with no basis in fact 40%-45% tax take on all earned and unearned income is more than a fair share of share of tax! No bias, no conjecture and factual. According to the most recent IFS statistics in respect of the UK tax take from income tax. Top 1% of earners contribute 27% of the tax take Top 10% of earners contribute 59% of the tax take Top 50% contribute 90% of the tax take. In other words, the lowest 50% of income tax payers contribute only 10% of the overall income tax take. " Why spoil a good argument by introducing some genuine facts into the discussion!! | |||
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" I wouldn't argue with that point or those figures. However it does less harm economically speaking than large scale off shore tax avoidance. Nope, the figure £2,400,000,000 is actually very understated. It's refined to be more like £40,000,000,000 And is far, far more than dodgy offshore dealing as although the figures involved in the offshore stuff can be mind boggling to the general public there are very few people in a position to be able to do it. But the "black economy" of cash in hand tax avoidance is undertaken by virtually everyone one way or another. . You know why it's called a black economy???. Because it's still doing economic activity, it's in constant circulation accruing "tax" along its path, just not as much as it should, however even that is a misnomer because the total tax take is the same, they just bumped the rates up, to negate the bit that was lost!. Now when your doing off shore tax evasion by the extremely wealthy, this money goes off shore to be hidden (that's how they evade tax) it takes awhile to be washed clean before it can get back on shore, so economic activity is lost in that space!. Plus when you look at huge multi nationals like say, apple, they have 400 billon off shore that they don't want to bring back because it would accrue tax!. That's 400 billon that's not very productive!. Trillions of dollars lies in unproductive purposes trying to avoid tax!... It's a catch 22 scenario Ah. So it's ok to avoid tax if you're going out and spending it on the razz that week, but if you're locking it up for a decade (in an ISA, for a mortgage for example) then you're as bad as the people using offshore accounts."razz" a word you plucked from somewhere to try and undermine a sensible point What is your vested interest in defending global corps ?
"Out on the razz" is British English slang for 'going out drinking and enjoying yourself'.
I'm not trying to defend 'global corps', I'm just pointing out that it's either all legal, or it's all not. Avoiding tax at a local level is no different to avoiding tax at an offshore level. It's all tax avoidance.
ISAs are tax avoidance.
Transferring your unused tax allowance to your spouse is tax avoidance.
Childcare benefits are tax avoidance.
They are all legal ways of avoiding tax. Lmao Im well aware of what on the "razz" means. You used it in a negative context. Trying to paint anyone who has worked cash in hand to be some dishonest piss head lush. That isnt how the black economy works and cash in hand and tax avoidance /evasion by corps are two completely different things entirely . The reasons why they are different has been pointed out a number of times on this thread.
Your point appeared to be that as long as people were spending their money then it's ok to avoid paying tax where they can.
Your point appeared to be that locking it away and not letting anyone else use that money somehow makes tax avoidance morally wrong.
So basically what you appeared to be saying was that a plumber who saves a grand a year and spends it on going out on the piss with their mates is alright, but a plumber who saves a grand a year and puts it under their matress to save up for something long term isn't alright.
Yeah you are absolutely right all we ever do is go on the piss. I have no idea what the point of you is.
Ok, substitute 'go on the piss' with 'buys a new bike', or 'purchases some DVD's, or 'gets a new computer', 'or goes on holiday'.
And you don't know what the point of me is? That's pretty fucking rude to say to another human to be honest."I wouldnt say that to any old human to be honest. I have no evidence you are human tho. | |||
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" Wealthy tax payers more than contribute their "fare share" - and some. that's a statement of biased conjecture with no basis in fact 40%-45% tax take on all earned and unearned income is more than a fair share of share of tax! No bias, no conjecture and factual. According to the most recent IFS statistics in respect of the UK tax take from income tax. Top 1% of earners contribute 27% of the tax take Top 10% of earners contribute 59% of the tax take Top 50% contribute 90% of the tax take. In other words, the lowest 50% of income tax payers contribute only 10% of the overall income tax take. " as i said ... it's not a fact, it never will be a fact, it's impossible to be a fact.... fairness is subjective .. you're just attempting to pass off an opnion you hold as fact. | |||
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"Or invoice and VAT? Since everyone is getting all caught up in tax evasion I ask you to look to yourselves. " I suppose but there are degrees aren't there? I mean when we see armed robbers getting away with thousands in cash and/or expensive goods do we think "suppose I shouldn't judge them too harshly, I got on that train that time without bothering to buy a ticket, not to mention the time they missed a couple of drinks off that restaurant bill and we didn't point out the mistake." | |||
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"Or invoice and VAT? Since everyone is getting all caught up in tax evasion I ask you to look to yourselves. I suppose but there are degrees aren't there? I mean when we see armed robbers getting away with thousands in cash and/or expensive goods do we think "suppose I shouldn't judge them too harshly, I got on that train that time without bothering to buy a ticket, not to mention the time they missed a couple of drinks off that restaurant bill and we didn't point out the mistake."" Both are wrong. Justifying things by setting them off as degrees of wrongness is just a slope that gets lower and lower. | |||
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" 40%-45% tax take on all earned and unearned income is more than a fair share of share of tax! No bias, no conjecture and factual. According to the most recent IFS statistics in respect of the UK tax take from income tax. Top 1% of earners contribute 27% of the tax take Top 10% of earners contribute 59% of the tax take Top 50% contribute 90% of the tax take. In other words, the lowest 50% of income tax payers contribute only 10% of the overall income tax take. as i said ... it's not a fact, it never will be a fact, it's impossible to be a fact.... fairness is subjective .. you're just attempting to pass off an opnion you hold as fact. " By that it appears that you feel it "unfair" that the vast majority of income tax collected (90% of it) is paid by the top 50% of earners in the country? More, that the very, very top 1% contribute 27% of the overall income tax take. How do they not then contribute their fair share? | |||
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"By that it appears that you feel it "unfair" that the vast majority of income tax collected (90% of it) is paid by the top 50% of earners in the country?" nice try at sneakily attempting to put an opinion into my comment where there is none. "More, that the very, very top 1% contribute 27% of the overall income tax take." this bit is irrelevant to what i said "How do they not then contribute their fair share?" as i already said, i'm only interested in correcting your deliberatly misleading comments ..... once again, fairness is subjective so your opinion is based on conjecture not fact.... not sure why you keep banging on really | |||
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"It is perfectly understandable that you would get defensive when presented with IFS data that does not fit with an alternative agenda. It is also understandable that given those figures, it would be pretty hard for anyone to suggest how much more the wealthy should pay in order to make it fairer. "defensive about what? you've repeatedly attempted to base your argument on what's fair ... fairness is subjective to each individual and therefor can't be considered or passed off as fact .... no matter how much your blindly dogmatic stubborness want's it to be a fact, it's impossible for it to be one because it is merely your opinion and nothing else i'm not arguing for either side here, i'm just pointing out your repeated error | |||
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" Both are wrong. Justifying things by setting them off as degrees of wrongness is just a slope that gets lower and lower. " We might have to tear up the entire legal system and start again in that case. | |||
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" Both are wrong. Justifying things by setting them off as degrees of wrongness is just a slope that gets lower and lower. We might have to tear up the entire legal system and start again in that case." No all that does is add a punishments by degree on that slope. If you don't commit the crime in the first place you don't get on the slope. | |||
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"Or invoice and VAT? Since everyone is getting all caught up in tax evasion I ask you to look to yourselves. " I'm having my kitchen done as it goes. All the contractors have been paid by invoice and BACS. So ner | |||
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