FabSwingers.com forum: Obama coming over to persuade us to stay in the EU

By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

Apparently he's going to fo this but why does he feel he's entitled to lecture us? If true if should leave air force 1 on the ground and fuck off out of our affairs. It really annoys me when foreigners meddle when it doesn't concern them.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Just another reason to vote out!

Desperate Dave trying to get anyone to speak up for him as he hasn't got a clue himself. Wonder what "scary" scenario O'Barmy will come up with?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"It really annoys me when foreigners meddle when it doesn't concern them. "

Yes, like Britain hasn't got a history of that or anything.

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By *anchestercubMan
over a year ago

manchester & NI

"It really annoys me when foreigners meddle when it doesn't concern them. "

Shame we don't follow that advice ourselves.

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By *anchestercubMan
over a year ago

manchester & NI

"It really annoys me when foreigners meddle when it doesn't concern them.

Yes, like Britain hasn't got a history of that or anything."

Beat me!

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Apparently he's going to fo this but why does he feel he's entitled to lecture us? If true if should leave air force 1 on the ground and fuck off out of our affairs. It really annoys me when foreigners meddle when it doesn't concern them. "

Yeah because we never meddle in other countries that don't concern us

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

It annoys you when foreigners meddle? I have to say I find this funny coming from people who feel pretty entitled to tell America how to act and what to do (which happens daily on the forums and in the UK).

It's an international issue whether you like it or not and leaders will comment, just as leaders in this country will comment on the US presidential election, for example.

-Courtney

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"It annoys you when foreigners meddle? I have to say I find this funny coming from people who feel pretty entitled to tell America how to act and what to do (which happens daily on the forums and in the UK).

It's an international issue whether you like it or not and leaders will comment, just as leaders in this country will comment on the US presidential election, for example.

-Courtney "

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Look at the type of people who are trying to convince you to leave the EU, THEN decide if ita the right thing or not.

If osborne, and all his mate, and the elite are the only ones who are trying to leave eu its because they feel they can make more money out of the peasants. They do not have the general publics interest at heart and youre a fool to think they do. Theyre reasonings to convince us are even rediculous.

But then the general public were foolish enough to vote tories in again and look how fucked the country is gettinh. Serves them right for just following tabloid trash i guess.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

It does when he owns Trident and has a base in the UK

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Should we listen to what Obama has to say? I wouldn't think anymore than any other leader.

It's interesting that it is being called meddling in our affairs, as that's what the EU has been doing for many years!

Maybe we could send Cameron, corbyn et al. to the states and ask them not to vote for trump. I think we would be told where to go!

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

As Boris said, America would not put up with the same restraints that the EU call for to be part of thier club.

Free trade should be just that not have to pay for the honed or trading with the rest of the countries.

If the uk left the EU do you really think that other contries are not going to trade with us? And tone honest the way things are in the world I think we could do with tightening up the borders again.

It's too easy for the undesirables to move around Europe now once they are in nobody gets checked! They just wonder from country to country

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Should we listen to what Obama has to say? I wouldn't think anymore than any other leader.

It's interesting that it is being called meddling in our affairs, as that's what the EU has been doing for many years!

Maybe we could send Cameron, corbyn et al. to the states and ask them not to vote for trump. I think we would be told where to go!"
the eu and un was formed as part of the one world government thats why he is coming over to persuade us to stay in

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Should we listen to what Obama has to say? I wouldn't think anymore than any other leader.

It's interesting that it is being called meddling in our affairs, as that's what the EU has been doing for many years!

Maybe we could send Cameron, corbyn et al. to the states and ask them not to vote for trump. I think we would be told where to go!"

He done the same shite when the Scottish referendum was going on, and look how well Scotland is doing now, flourishing and not looking back, full of wealth and prosperity, oh wait it isn't is it!!!!!!!

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Britain should stay in EU. Too small a nation to stand alone now! If they leave Scotland will leave UK. It's financial madness to leave the EU. farmers, fishermen and other agricultural industry's are well looked after by EU. What will happen to human rights act? EU has brought many positives

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

As much as we hate to admit it, the northern Ireland peace process, would have dragged on another generation, had it not been for the US "meddling", and ww2 could have so easily been a different story.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Should we listen to what Obama has to say? I wouldn't think anymore than any other leader.

It's interesting that it is being called meddling in our affairs, as that's what the EU has been doing for many years!

Maybe we could send Cameron, corbyn et al. to the states and ask them not to vote for trump. I think we would be told where to go!"

They probably would be told where to go by some, but the more politically literate might just listen to get worthwhile opinions on what the rest of the world thinks about their election and the impact it will have.

It's an interesting use of the word "lecturing" btw OP.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Britain should stay in EU. Too small a nation to stand alone now! If they leave Scotland will leave UK. It's financial madness to leave the EU. farmers, fishermen and other agricultural industry's are well looked after by EU. What will happen to human rights act? EU has brought many positives "

How do you figure Scotland will leave the UK

You think all Scots are following the SNP view to remain, many SNP members disagree with the scare mongering shouts on this

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

If it's good for America what does that tell you?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

How do you figure Scotland will leave the UK

You think all Scots are following the SNP view to remain, many SNP members disagree with the scare mongering shouts on this"
they will when the famers, fishing industry realise that their respective trades are subsidises greatly by EU. Give me 5 reasons for Britain to leave EU?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I'd of thought the bigger issue was how to stop nutcase Trump from getting into to power...never mind what we do or don't with the EU.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Why doesn't he worry about his own shit and leave us to crack on

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"If it's good for America what does that tell you?"

It tells me lots of things - but mostly that many people in our strongest geo-political and military ally are looking at this debate with a mixture of horror and disbelief in much the same way as many of us look at Donald Trump, and feel the need to put some perspective in.

A form of madness appears to be taking over much of the world.

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By *nleashedCrakenMan
over a year ago

Widnes

It's an international issue whether you like it or not and leaders will comment, just as leaders in this country will comment on the US presidential election, for example.

-Courtney "

This attitude from BREXIT is typically of their whole attitude. Rather than take on the argument and put their counter argument they try to dismiss their opponents by calling it scaremongering, foreign threats or outside interference. Probably because must BREXIT campaigners are far better at finding ways of avoiding the real issues rather than actually making a good, fact based argument for leaving. It also folds in well with their little England attitude.

On another forum I've even seen them saying 'put the Great back in Britain'. Sound a little familiar at all.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"If it's good for America what does that tell you?

A form of madness appears to be taking over much of the world."

Yes of course, they will put our interests before their own eh

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By *olgateMan
over a year ago

on the road to nowhere in particular

The leaders of the free world are the first to tell people to fuck off and stop interfering in their internal affairs.

Obama should be respectfully told to fuck off and mind his own business

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

"It really annoys me when foreigners meddle when it doesn't concern them.

Yes, like Britain hasn't got a history of that or anything."
fully agree with you. Though 2 wrong dont make a right. We've caused endless trouble abroad

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"If it's good for America what does that tell you?

A form of madness appears to be taking over much of the world.

Yes of course, they will put our interests before their own eh

Perhaps for some things we have shared interests.

Why do you think the US would generally prefer to keep Britain in the EU?

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

It's an international issue whether you like it or not and leaders will comment, just as leaders in this country will comment on the US presidential election, for example.

-Courtney "
i think that was others criticising the american voting system. How would you feel if cameron went to america and told americans who to vote for?

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By *nleashedCrakenMan
over a year ago

Widnes

"Look at the type of people who are trying to convince you to leave the EU, THEN decide if ita the right thing or not.

If osborne, and all his mate, and the elite are the only ones who are trying to leave eu its because they feel they can make more money out of the peasants.

Except Osborne and half his mates are campaigning for us to stay in the EU not leave.

"They do not have the general publics interest at heart and youre a fool to think they do. Theyre reasonings to convince us are even rediculous.

But then the general public were foolish enough to vote tories in again and look how fucked the country is gettinh.

That's ripe coming from you when you don't even know that Osborne is campaigning for the UK to remain in the EU not to leave. Maybe the general public took the time to listen to what was being said, rather than just vote on what they believe people should say, and voted accordingly.

" Serves them right for just following tabloid trash i guess."

And, to be frank, anyone who votes in this referendum based solely on the personalities on either side, is the real fool.

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By *eerobCouple
over a year ago

solihull

Personally I'd rather listen to Obama that Cameron, Blair, Johnson or Trump over the matter...he 'appears' to be sensible than any of them.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

It's an international issue whether you like it or not and leaders will comment, just as leaders in this country will comment on the US presidential election, for example.

-Courtney i think that was others criticising the american voting system. How would you feel if cameron went to america and told americans who to vote for?"

You don't seem to get just how often other countries interfere with American domestic and foreign affairs. It happens regularly because America is seen as an international player so other countries feel like they have a say in what happens there. To be honest I'm used to it.

But this isn't quite the same thing anyway. Obama isn't weighing in on a purely domestic issue like who should be prime minister. He is weighing in on a regional affair. And if America were dealing with a regional issue in the Americas then I would welcome international advice.

Open minded people usually welcome the advice of intelligent and informed people. Close minded people don't. That is the same in the UK as it is in the US.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"If it's good for America what does that tell you?

A form of madness appears to be taking over much of the world.

Yes of course, they will put our interests before their own eh

Perhaps for some things we have shared interests.

Why do you think the US would generally prefer to keep Britain in the EU?"

Maybe to stay onside with their biggest oldest ally, France

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

"Should we listen to what Obama has to say? I wouldn't think anymore than any other leader.

It's interesting that it is being called meddling in our affairs, as that's what the EU has been doing for many years!

Maybe we could send Cameron, corbyn et al. to the states and ask them not to vote for trump. I think we would be told where to go!

"
scotland was tricked by a last minute deal he put forward then if later retracted when scotland voted to stay.. Cameron is very manipulating !

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

"Look at the type of people who are trying to convince you to leave the EU, THEN decide if ita the right thing or not.

But then the general public were foolish enough to vote tories in again and look how fucked the country is gettinh. Serves them right for just following tabloid trash i guess."
i know for a fact the tories have no interest in the common classes, and not privy to the machinations.. The problem i see is we'd be screwed either way. The working class that is

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By *nleashedCrakenMan
over a year ago

Widnes

"Should we listen to what Obama has to say? I wouldn't think anymore than any other leader.

It's interesting that it is being called meddling in our affairs, as that's what the EU has been doing for many years!

Maybe we could send Cameron, corbyn et al. to the states and ask them not to vote for trump. I think we would be told where to go!"

Well they probably would by Trump supporters.

Obama, like many leaders, will have an opinion and, if asked, should be free to express his views. What the BTEXIT lot don't like about this intervention is that it goes against their whole argument that the world is eagerly waiting for Britain to leave the EU so they can make all these new free trade deals us. It isn't and most of the world is telling us that.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"If it's good for America what does that tell you?

A form of madness appears to be taking over much of the world.

Yes of course, they will put our interests before their own eh

Perhaps for some things we have shared interests.

Why do you think the US would generally prefer to keep Britain in the EU?

Maybe to stay onside with their biggest oldest ally, France"

But of course!! Why didn't I think of that! They are probably worried that an independent UK will grow so great that we will re-nationalise them. I've always wanted to visit Pennsylvania-shire.

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By *heBirminghamWeekendMan
over a year ago

here

Like when those pesky English foreigners meddled in the run up to the Scottish referendum ....

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

.
"As much as we hate to admit it, the northern Ireland peace process, would have dragged on another generation, had it not been for the US "meddling", and ww2 could have so easily been a different story.

America hold a lot if sway in the world, and there is nothing that is going to change that, so any American president, will have an impact on our lives, I'm not saying we should always bow to the will if America, but we should listen to what they have to say, its not like we have an abundance of ideas, now is it"
tony blair ended the northern ireland troubles and america wanted out of ww2. Pearl harbour and germany declaring war on america brought america in.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

How do you figure Scotland will leave the UK

You think all Scots are following the SNP view to remain, many SNP members disagree with the scare mongering shouts on this they will when the famers, fishing industry realise that their respective trades are subsidises greatly by EU. Give me 5 reasons for Britain to leave EU? "

I will give you 6 to start;

SOVEREIGNTY

Britain’s membership of the European Union is unconstitutional for several reasons. Firstly it causes her Majesty The Queen to be in breach of her coronation oath in which she promised to govern the peoples of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland “according to their respective laws and customs”.

It also contravenes the Bill of Rights Act 1689 which provided for freedom of speech and debate and that proceedings in Parliament “ought not to be impeached or questioned in court or any place out of Parliament”.

It is in breach of the Act of Settlements 1700 section 4 which states that “the laws of England are birthright of the people”. It also breaches the principal established in the 1932 case of Vauxhall Estates v Liverpool Corporation IKV733 that “no Parliament may bind its successors” as section 2.1 of the European Communities Act 1972 provides that all obligations created by the European Union treaties can be enforced in Britain and without further enactment thereby giving the European Commission the right to create new laws which are binding on the citizens of the United Kingdom without reference to our own Parliament.

Membership of the EU is also in breach of the Magna Carta which provides that “no free man shall be disseised of his liberties of free customs nor will we not pass upon him but by law of the land.”

How the EU works

The European Commission

The unelected European Commission has the monopoly of proposing all EU legislation, which it does in secret. It can also issue “Regulations”, which are automatically binding in all Member States. It is run by a college of 27 commissioners, currently one for each member state. It has 37 branches, or “Directorates General”, each run by a Director General. The Directors General have the real power and can rule for many years. They cannot be removed from office.

The Commission is more a Government than a Commission. The list of Commissioners is decided by qualified majority of the European Council on the basis of the ”suggestions” of national governments, but they are not delegates or representatives. They are appointed for five years. On appointment they swear an oath not to seek or take instructions from any Member Government. Their allegiance is to the EU, not to their own countries. Portfolios are distributed by the Commission President, who is decided by the European Council of Prime Ministers and Presidents on the basis of Qualified Majority Voting.

The Commission is a legislative machine, continually producing new draft directives and regulations which are passed to the Council of Ministers and European Parliament for final decision. Each individual Commissioner seeks to make his or her mark during the five-year period in office by proposing new laws for the portfolio area they cover. Thus a condition for supranational legislation in the EU is that draft laws cannot be proposed by elected representatives. French President Charles De Gaulle described the Commission as “a conclave of technocrats without a country, responsible to nobody”.

The Commission also has quasi-judicial powers. It can adjudicate on competition cases in the single market and impose fines on EU members. Even though parties can appeal to the Court of Justice, the Commission acts as if it were a lower court. It is supported by some 3,000 “secret” working groups, whose members are not publicly known. It is at this level that most Commission decisions are actually made and corporate lobbyists wield their influence.

The Council of Ministers

The Council of Ministers from Member States passes EU legislation, often by majority voting, and again in secret. The UK has 8.4% of the votes. Sometimes it has to consult the European Parliament and has the final say on Commission proposals.

The Council of Ministers is called a Council, but it makes laws just like a Parliament on the basis of the Commission’s proposals. It makes these laws in secret, often in the form of package-deals between its member governments, and it takes some executive decisions. Approximately 85% of EU directives and regulations are agreed privately in some 300 committees of civil servants from the EU Member States which service the Council of Ministers.

Most of what these committees agree on is nodded through without debate at Council meetings. Only some 15% of EU laws are actually discussed or negotiated at that level. Most EU laws are agreed by consensus among Ministers on the Council, but a process of “shadow-voting” takes place all the time whereby Ministers look round to see whether a qualified majority or a blocking minority exists for any proposal. Small countries rarely push matters to a vote if they see that the big countries are agreed on something. The Council of Ministers, the primary EU legislature, is responsible collectively to nobody. It is irremoveable as a group, although individual Ministers may be criticised or removed from office at national level. A committee of legislators, it is an oligarchy in the exact meaning of that word.

The European Council

This is quite distinct from the Council of Ministers, is the quarterly “summit” meeting of the Heads of State and Government, the national Prime Ministers and Presidents. It gives overall political direction to the EU and decides its policy priorities. Unlike the Council of Ministers it does not make EU laws directly, but as the Prime Ministers and Presidents appoint Government Ministers at national level, they can determine indirectly what the Council of Ministers does. Before the EU Constitution was embodied in the Lisbon Treaty, national Prime Ministers and Presidents would meet on an ad hoc basis outside the Treaties.

The Lisbon Treaty completed the constitutionally Federalist structure of the Union by turning the European Council into a formal EU institution whose actions or failures to act are therefore, at least in principle, subject to review by the Court of Justice, although that has not happened to date. The European Council elects its President by qualified majority vote for a term of two and a half years, renewable once. The European Council President thus gives continuity of policy at supranational level for up to five years, while national Prime Ministers and Presidents come and go during that time.

Farming;

we run a massive trade deficit with the EU. We buy far more from it than we sell to it. For example 17.7% of all German exports to the EU come here. The figure for France is over 11%. They are not going to mess with us, they need our market. We are in a strong position to negotiate very good trade terms with them, and this is not creating a precedent. There are at least fifty countries in the world with their own preferential trade agreements with the EU, some of them buying very little from it.

Meanwhile we have to sit on our hands whilst the EU conducts a bilateral trade agreement on our behalf with Mercosur, that will be to the great detriment of our beef industry. It is less well known that Japan is one of the countries that DOESN’T have a special trade deal with the EU, but it is a country from which we buy a great deal. We could and should have a deal with them whereby in return for our purchases of manufactured goods they buy some wheat and beans from us. You never know, they may grow a bit taller as a result

the UK would save money by leaving the EU, while other member states would have to cut payments in the absence of the UK contribution.

CAP funding has been falling – its share of the EU budget is now 48 per cent, compared with 80 per cent at one point – and will continue to do so as member states look to contribute less to central EU funds and the union expands east bringing in more net beneficiaries.

You don’t have to be in a political union to trade with it. If we were to leave the EU we would still be members of the WTO

Immigration;

Britain has given away control of immigration within the EU to the EU, and retains the power only to control non-EU immigration. This has led to huge disparities where Commonwealth citizens with family in Britain struggle to obtain visas whilst EU citizens with little link with the UK can automatically work here. It has also contributed to the largest ever inflows into the UK in our history, with the UK population rising by 4 million from 1997, which is only slightly less than the entire population of (Southern) Ireland moving to the UK in that timescale, and that figure is the net figure, which does not take into account the economic, social and cultural impacts of a mass outflow of British citizens to settle abroad. The British population used to be stable of about 58 million, and it is uncontrolled immigration that has driven the population up rapidly to the current 62 million (ONS figures).

Leaving the EU will empower Britain to adopt the more balanced and more tightly controlled immigration policy, similar to the Australian visa-based system. This visa system could set down the number of visas available according to UK needs and the ability of public services, housing and infrastructure on a very crowded island to cope. It is likely that certain EU nation states will enjoy visa waiver schemes (in reality there is less need for visas with nations with comparative economic profiles such as France, Germany and Holland, the biggest inflows have been from former Communist states).

In the EU, all the EU citizens have the right to move to the UK regardless of skill needs. This has resulted in the equivalent of a new city the size of York arriving every year. With easier travel for North African countries and the prospect of Turkey’s 79 million citizens being given the right to work in the EU, the scale of uncontrolled immigration is likely to worsen considerably unless the UK withdraws rapidly. Better controls over criminal elements coming into the UK, difficult under the EU’s open door approach, can be enhanced too

FISHING;

British fishing policy is determined by the political imperative of European integration.

The objective is to create an EU fishing fleet catching EU fish in EU waters under an EU permit system controlled from Brussels.

That is the price the British fishing industry has to pay as its contribution towards the realisation of European political union, and nothing – not even the conservation of fish stocks – must be allowed to stand in the way of achieving that objective.

Today we are confronted with the consequent catastrophe now facing our fishermen, as they are forced off what should be their own waters in favour of an increasingly predatory armada of Spanish and other foreign vessels.

The British fishing industry is therefore being intentionally and systematically destroyed by the command of Brussels. To conceal the real issue and say that this is for conservation is a contemptible lie. But lies are the rule rather than the exception when dealing with Brussels on this issue, and with successive British governments for that matter.

In the House of Commons on 17th December 1997 Christopher Gill, Conservative Member of Parliament for Ludlow, said: “For 25 years, the House of Commons and the people of Britain, not least the fishermen, have been fed a diet of half-truths, deceptions and downright lies”. He was absolutely right.

We used to have a fishing industry in this country, until it was destroyed by the EU. Surplus fish were processed into fishmeal, a very useful protein source for our livestock. The EU took over and now this surplus has to be dumped, dead, at the bottom of the sea. An independent Britain could turn this round. All over the world farmers are exporting food and feedstuffs to the EU, tariff free. They do not have to adhere to these rules, so WHY SHOULD WE?

ECONOMY;

With every new EU regulation and with every extra pound paid into the E U’s coffers, Britain’s EU membership is an increasingly bad deal. I do not know of any cost-benefit study that shows EU membership actually benefits Britain. On the contrary, they vie with each other to show how costly, and increasingly costly, membership is. The country needs a new relationship with the EU.

A free trade relationship for Britain and the EU

When we set up Global Vision in 2007, we focused on the economic case for an EFTA/Swiss-style relationship with the EU based on trade and mutually beneficial co-operation. We understand that trade with the EU countries is important to Britain but, under a free trade relationship with the EU, this would continue. There is not a shred of evidence to show that trade would be blocked – just look at Germany’s trade surplus with us.

But we do not need the single Market, which is still widely misunderstood in this country as a free trade area. It is not a free trade area. It is a highly regulated market based on the notion of “harmonization”. And the costs of the Single Market’s regulations far outweigh the benefits. We do not need the EU’s Custom’s Union either, an idea as dated as drainpipe trousers and beehive hairstyles. Indeed we would be better off outside the Custom’s Union. We would then be free to choose the countries we wanted to negotiate special trade deals with, rather than rely on Brussels to decide for us.

This negotiating freedom is a huge potential boon for this country. It is too often overlooked. Much is, rightly, made of the savings we would make if we left the EU. But too little is made of the potential prizes if were free to negotiate our own trade deals. Yet these potential prizes are the really exciting aspect of leaving the EU in the rapidly changing 21st-century global economy, where Europe will inevitably shrink in relative importance. They could transform the economic prospects of this country.

Free to trade: the importance of the Commonwealth

The US, which is UK’s largest trading partner by a substantial margin, and the biggest investor in the UK by a mile, would be an obvious candidate. But so would be the Commonwealth nations whose economic potential is quite special, not least of all because of the Indian economy, which is clocking up annual growth rates of 7-8 per cent. The Indian Diaspora, well represented here in the UK, adds to the excitement of the Commonwealth’s economic prospects and its relevance to Britain.

And the Commonwealth is open for trade and economic cooperation. Commonwealth leaders issued the historic ‘Edinburgh Communique’, following a Commonwealth heads of government meeting (CHOGM), in 1997. It was a masterly and inspired document that outlined the objectives of the Commonwealth relating to increased trade and investment opportunities and also, crucially, to development issues.

The individual Commonwealth nations were, of course, left to decide which policies they should implement in order to achieve the Edinburgh objectives. The Commonwealth Business Council, which should be far better known in Britain than it is, was established in 1997 following the meeting

JOBS;

Millions of UK jobs NOT at risk from Brexit, says IEA report

The oft-repeated claim that 3m British jobs depend on Britain’s membership of the EU has been challenged in a new report by the Institute of Economic Affairs (IEA).

The report’s author, Ryan Bourne, calls on the public and commentators to challenge the assertion frequently made by pro-EU supporters.

“It can be said with certainty that three to four million jobs are not at risk in the event of a Brexit”, Bourne said.

He added “It’s high time that politicians and commentators stopped scaremongering, and recognised that jobs are associated with trade and not the membership of a political union” .

Trade is the crucial factor associated with jobs, not EU membership and it would be a mistake to think trade flows and volumes would be substantially hit by Brexit, according to the IEA.

The 3m jobs claim has a variety of sources, one of the more recent being based on Treasury estimates of the number of jobs linked to British exports flowing to the EU – still Britain’s single biggest trading partner. The figure was cited ad nauseam by Nick Clegg during his debate with Ukip leader Nigel Farage last year.

However, Bourne argues that it’s unrealistic in the extreme, even in a hypothetical worst case scenario where trade completely broke down, that these jobs would be lost.

Rather “import substitution” would help to offset some of the worst aspects of a breakdown in trade. If the Prime Minister of the day was unable to negotiate an EU-UK free trade deal, both the EU and the UK are still bound by the rules of the World Trade Organisation that imposition of massive tariffs.

While still a huge part of the UK’s export market, the EU controls many aspects of British trade policy. The UK government is unable to sign unilateral free trade agreements with other countries. Outside the EU, the IEA report suggests Britain could focus on getting a better deal with countries around the world.

It remains highly questionable whether the EU would want to start a de facto trade war with the UK after a Brexit, since the EU sells more to Britain than it buys. The IEA concedes that there would likely be a change in the UK’s trade patterns.

If no UK-EU free trade deal could be negotiated, some industries may find it more difficult to operate at their current level and may have to shed jobs as a result. One example could be the financial services sector, which, according to analysis by Open Europe, would be most in danger if Britain pulled out of the EU.

The report argues that the central factor determining whether or not the EU is a drag on or a boon to UK employment depends is kind of policies an independent Britain would pursue after Brexit.

If Britain goes for a low tax, de-regulated, free trade economy uninhibited by Brussels’ rules and hefty EU contributions, the IEA believe there is every reason to believe prosperity will be just as great or greater following Brexit

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By *eerobCouple
over a year ago

solihull

".As much as we hate to admit it, the northern Ireland peace process, would have dragged on another generation, had it not been for the US "meddling", and ww2 could have so easily been a different story.

America hold a lot if sway in the world, and there is nothing that is going to change that, so any American president, will have an impact on our lives, I'm not saying we should always bow to the will if America, but we should listen to what they have to say, its not like we have an abundance of ideas, now is it tony blair ended the northern ireland troubles and america wanted out of ww2. Pearl harbour and germany declaring war on america brought america in. "

I think I'm right in saying that it was John Major who started the process of finishing the Irish troubles, and ultimately helped cause bigger problems later with his own war mongering.... Admittedly along with the USA

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

It's an international issue whether you like it or not and leaders will comment, just as leaders in this country will comment on the US presidential election, for example.

-Courtney "
people criticising the american electoral system is not the same as having some foreign leader fly over here and tell us what to do! As a non american i will tell you courtney, who to vote for! You up for that? I think not

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

It's an international issue whether you like it or not and leaders will comment, just as leaders in this country will comment on the US presidential election, for example.

-Courtney people criticising the american electoral system is not the same as having some foreign leader fly over here and tell us what to do! As a non american i will tell you courtney, who to vote for! You up for that? I think not"

How is Obama telling you what to do?

Those damn yankees coming over here with their mind controlling powers.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Hand in hand, great post

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

Like when those pesky English foreigners meddled in the run up to the Scottish referendum ....

"
cameron! You scots love him really!

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By *anchestercubMan
over a year ago

manchester & NI

Like when those pesky English foreigners meddled in the run up to the Scottish referendum ....

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By *jj46Man
over a year ago

rhyl

I would advise people to watch the Obama deception he's not the problem he's just a puppet some say he's distant cousin to the Queen but still don't like him so he keep his nose out of Britain

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By *nleashedCrakenMan
over a year ago

Widnes

"As Boris said, America would not put up with the same restraints that the EU call for to be part of thier club.

Free trade should be just that not have to pay for the honed or trading with the rest of the countries.

If the uk left the EU do you really think that other contries are not going to trade with us? And tone honest the way things are in the world I think we could do with tightening up the borders again.

No one is saying that if we leave the EU that the other countries in the EU will not trade with us. Of course they will. The argument is not whether the UK will trade with the other EU countries if we leave but whether we will be able to trade as freely with those countries as we do now. And the answer is, unless we join EEA (European Economic Area) or EFTA (European Free Trade Area), both of which would require that we still pay in to the EU budget (possibly more NET than we do now), that we allow free movement of peoples across our borders (and possibly have to join Schengen like Norway and Switzerland had to) but have no say over how the rules are made, we will not have unrestricted access to the Single Market, as we have now. That will mean our trade with the EU will be reduced and jobs will be lost. The question is not whether jobs will be lost if we leave the EU the only question is how many.

It's too easy for the undesirables to move around Europe now once they are in nobody gets checked! They just wonder from country to country "

Actually it's not that easy for undesirables to move around Europe and even harder for them to get to the UK.

As the rules stand now:-

We do not have to allow anyone into this country who has a criminal record except UK nationals; we choose not to check.

We do not have to allow anyone into this country who can not show they have the means to support themselves except UK nationals; we choose not to check.

We do not have to allow anyone into this country who does not have adequate health insurance to cover them against any existing conditions or possible accidents except UK nationals; we choose not to check.

Of the 350,000 net immigration into the UK last year over 50% were from outside the EU. We could choose not to let any of those in now if we wanted; we choose to let them in.

Of the 50%- who are from the EU no one knows how many of those are UK nationals returning from living and/or working within the EU. Some estimates put that figure as high as 50% (25% of total).

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By *jj46Man
over a year ago

rhyl

"As Boris said, America would not put up with the same restraints that the EU call for to be part of thier club.

Free trade should be just that not have to pay for the honed or trading with the rest of the countries.

If the uk left the EU do you really think that other contries are not going to trade with us? And tone honest the way things are in the world I think we could do with tightening up the borders again.

It's too easy for the undesirables to move around Europe now once they are in nobody gets checked! They just wonder from country to country

Actually it's not that easy for undesirables to move around Europe and even harder for them to get to the UK.

As the rules stand now:-

We do not have to allow anyone into this country who has a criminal record except UK nationals; we choose not to check.

We do not have to allow anyone into this country who can not show they have the means to support themselves except UK nationals; we choose not to check.

Of the 350,000 net immigration into the UK last year over 50% were from outside the EU. We could choose not to let any of those in now if we wanted; we choose to let them in.

Of the 50%- who are from the EU no one knows how many of those are UK nationals returning from living and/or working within the EU. Some estimates put that figure as high as 50% (25% of total).

We exercise more control than most EU countries over our borders and, within the current rules of the EU, we could exercise even more if we chose to. I see no reason to believe that, if we left the EU, we would choose to exercise any of those controls that we could exercise now if we wanted to but choose not to."
sooner or later the whole system is due to crash another meltdown either this year I have heard possibly may but personally would not like it to happen....

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By *nleashedCrakenMan
over a year ago

Widnes

I agree with most of what you say but, as I often point out to BREXITers, the Human Rights Act has nothing to do with being in the EU. The Human Rights Act simply incorporated the UK's commitments under the ECHR (European Convention of Human Rights) into British law. The ECHR was set up by BRITAIN after WWII long before the EEC, EEA, EFTA or EU were even though of. Leaving the EU will make no difference, good or bad, to the UK's European and international commitments to human rights either way.

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By *nleashedCrakenMan
over a year ago

Widnes

"If it's good for America what does that tell you?"

It tells me it's good for America. What does it tell you?

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By *nleashedCrakenMan
over a year ago

Widnes

"I'd of thought the bigger issue was how to stop nutcase Trump from getting into to power...never mind what we do or don't with the EU."

Although I agree with you it's even less our business who gets elected US president than Obama's business whether the UK stays in the EU or not.

The fact is, in an interconnected world, big decisions made by one country are going to have an effect on others. So, while I accept I have no right to vote on who is the next US president, I still have an opinion on Trump and the right to express that opinion, which I have done both on here and other forums. In the same way, whilst the US and its President, has no right to dictate to the UK whether it should be part of the EU or not, it definitely has the right to an opinion and the right to express that opinion. It's up to us how much notice we choose to take.

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By *nleashedCrakenMan
over a year ago

Widnes

"Why doesn't he worry about his own shit and leave us to crack on"

Because a strong, successful UK is in the US's best interests and if Obama believes that that is best achievement by the UK remaining in the EU, which he clearly does, then it would be a dereliction of his duty to the US for him not to say so.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Obama is not credible. Why listen to him at all? He does have a nice smile though.

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By *nleashedCrakenMan
over a year ago

Widnes

"If it's good for America what does that tell you?

A form of madness appears to be taking over much of the world."

I'm not sure which is the more frightening populist statement:-

'make America great again' or 'but the Great back in Britain' when what makes both countries great is the complete opposite of what those shouting the slogans actually stand for.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Why doesn't he worry about his own shit and leave us to crack on

And what if he's wrong? Which he is. So his duty really should be to remain impartial

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By *nleashedCrakenMan
over a year ago

Widnes

It's an international issue whether you like it or not and leaders will comment, just as leaders in this country will comment on the US presidential election, for example.

-Courtney i think that was others criticising the american voting system. How would you feel if cameron went to america and told americans who to vote for?

Open minded people usually welcome the advice of intelligent and informed people. Close minded people don't. That is the same in the UK as it is in the US."

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By *nleashedCrakenMan
over a year ago

Widnes

"Why doesn't he worry about his own shit and leave us to crack on

And what if he's wrong? Which he is. So his duty really should be to remain impartial"

Why should he remain impartial if he's not. He has an opinion and he's chosen to express it.

What BREXITers don't like is that he's not saying what they want to hear. The reality is is that, with the possible exception of Putin, the whole world is saying as loudly as it possibly can to us "don't leave the EU, we don't want to do trade deals with the UK alone, you won't get as good a deal from us as the EU will".

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Why doesn't he worry about his own shit and leave us to crack on

And what if he's wrong? Which he is. So his duty really should be to remain impartial

Why should he remain impartial if he's not. He has an opinion and he's chosen to express it.

Pmsl. And why would that bother them?

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By *nleashedCrakenMan
over a year ago

Widnes

"Why doesn't he worry about his own shit and leave us to crack on

And what if he's wrong? Which he is. So his duty really should be to remain impartial

Why should he remain impartial if he's not. He has an opinion and he's chosen to express it.

Pmsl. And why would that bother them?"

Well it's not clear from your statement who 'them' are or 'that' is so, without clarification, I can't answer your question.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

It's an international issue whether you like it or not and leaders will comment, just as leaders in this country will comment on the US presidential election, for example.

Are you serious? Foreign leaders always do this. One example was when the Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu actually went before the United States Congress to give a speech criticizing Obama's deal with Iran in March of 2015. And that's just one example!

This stuff happens all the time, and British leaders do it, too. How about you focus on the arguments being made rather than who is making them?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Why doesn't he worry about his own shit and leave us to crack on

And what if he's wrong? Which he is. So his duty really should be to remain impartial

Why should he remain impartial if he's not. He has an opinion and he's chosen to express it.

Pmsl. And why would that bother them?

Well it's not clear from your statement who 'them' are or 'that' is so, without clarification, I can't answer your question."

By 'them' I mean the whole world that you are talking about. Why would they care if the deals we get outside the EU are not as good? Wouldn't that mean that they would be gaining from us?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

He needs to sort his own country out before trying to police ours...

MrWho.

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By *oole2010Couple
over a year ago

southampto

I find it quite ironic that the president of the usa, should be advocating us to stay in a federal state of europe,taking over the queens soveriegnty.

when in fact they didnt want to stay in british soveriegn rule just over 200 years ago, and fought the british for their own independence

Him

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By *nleashedCrakenMan
over a year ago

Widnes

"Why doesn't he worry about his own shit and leave us to crack on

And what if he's wrong? Which he is. So his duty really should be to remain impartial

Why should he remain impartial if he's not. He has an opinion and he's chosen to express it.

Pmsl. And why would that bother them?

Well it's not clear from your statement who 'them' are or 'that' is so, without clarification, I can't answer your question.

By 'them' I mean the whole world that you are talking about. Why would they care if the deals we get outside the EU are not as good? Wouldn't that mean that they would be gaining from us?"

No it doesn't mean they will be gaining from us. The reason why they would want us to stay in the EU is because any deal they do with the EU with the UK in it is going to be better for them than one they do with the EU without the UK ( and 60 million extra customers ) in it. However they will do a deal with the EU's 300 million customers whether the UK is in it or not and, because 300 million is 5 times more attractive than 60 million, they will give a better deal to the EU's 300 million than the UK's 60 million and they'll probably want to do the EU deal first. We won't be high on their list of priorities as the UK (60 million, 14th wealthiest per head) as we would be as part of the EU (360 million, 2nd or 3rd wealthiest per head - depending who's figures you take)

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

They will still trade with us though, won't they?

He can't have it all ways, slag off Cameron about Libya one minute and then back him the next.

Typical politician, does what suits at that time, no consistency.

Sarah

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By *nleashedCrakenMan
over a year ago

Widnes

"I find it quite ironic that the president of the usa, should be advocating us to stay in a federal state of europe,taking over the queens soveriegnty.

when in fact they didnt want to stay in british soveriegn rule just over 200 years ago, and fought the british for their own independence

Him"

It's not that ironic really. The USA (United States of America) is a federal union if states some of which were sovereign states before joining the union. Whilst I personally would not be in favour of a 'United States of Europe' I see nothing ironical in the head of the largest and most successful union of states thinking it would be a good idea for the UK remain in, and retain its influence over, a union of sovereign European states.

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By *entaur_UKMan
over a year ago

Cannock

Is this comment meant as a joke?

The British fishing industry has been decimated by EU rules and regulations.

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By *ee VianteWoman
over a year ago

Somewhere in North Norfolk

I know which way I am voting so let him come.

Maybe he'll give me a different perspective and change my mind, but I doubt it.

I've more respect for Obama than our current government anyway.

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By *entaur_UKMan
over a year ago

Cannock

Obama can fuck off, voting Brits are not Americas poodle like Blair was to Bush he can't tell us what to do, how to think or how to vote. He'll soon be out of the White House on his ear anyway, he should pay more attention to what is happening in his own country with the rise of Donald Trump.

If our Prime Minister told the USA to vote to give away their sovereignty we would be told exactly where to go in no uncertain terms by the likes of Obama.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Why doesn't he worry about his own shit and leave us to crack on

And what if he's wrong? Which he is. So his duty really should be to remain impartial

Why should he remain impartial if he's not. He has an opinion and he's chosen to express it.

Pmsl. And why would that bother them?

Well it's not clear from your statement who 'them' are or 'that' is so, without clarification, I can't answer your question.

By 'them' I mean the whole world that you are talking about. Why would they care if the deals we get outside the EU are not as good? Wouldn't that mean that they would be gaining from us?

That makes no sense at all. The 60 million are still there to trade with whether we are in or out

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Obama can fuck off, voting Brits are not Americas poodle like Blair was to Bush he can't tell us what to do, how to think or how to vote. He'll soon be out of the White House on his ear anyway, he should pay more attention to what is happening in his own country with the rise of Donald Trump.

If our Prime Minister told the USA to vote to give away their sovereignty we would be told exactly where to go in no uncertain terms by the likes of Obama. "

can I just say that, regardless of the EU debate, I find it funny what terminology people choose to use sometimes. Obama is going "out...on his ear"? Really? The man won two presidential campaigns, and his current approval rating is over 50%, which is compared to the historical figure of 47% for presidents in their 29th quarter, according to the most recent Gallup polls.

Oh, yeah, out on his ear, alright. I bet he just looks back on his political career with disgust.

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By *entaur_UKMan
over a year ago

Cannock

"No it doesn't mean they will be gaining from us. The reason why they would want us to stay in the EU is because any deal they do with the EU with the UK in it is going to be better for them than one they do with the EU without the UK ( and 60 million extra customers ) in it. However they will do a deal with the EU's 300 million customers whether the UK is in it or not and, because 300 million is 5 times more attractive than 60 million, they will give a better deal to the EU's 300 million than the UK's 60 million and they'll probably want to do the EU deal first. We won't be high on their list of priorities as the UK (60 million, 14th wealthiest per head) as we would be as part of the EU (360 million, 2nd or 3rd wealthiest per head - depending who's figures you take)

They will still trade with us though, won't they?

He can't have it all ways, slag off Cameron about Libya one minute and then back him the next.

Typical politician, does what suits at that time, no consistency.

Sarah"

Obama and the USA want to force the ttip deal on us, that's the real reason Obama wants Britain to stay in the EU. A ttip deal will be done between the EU and the USA if we are in the EU we will be forced to accept ttip. If we leave the EU we can opt out of ttip. If you don't know what ttip is then Google it and check it out, sure fire way to privatise the NHS. So if you want to see the NHS privatised vote to stay in the EU. If you don't want the NHS privatised vote to leave the EU. Obama has a clear motive why he is telling us to stay in the EU. That motive is ttip.

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By *nleashedCrakenMan
over a year ago

Widnes

They will still trade with us though, won't they?

"
Yes, of course both states within the EU and outside the EU will trade with us whether we stay in or leave the EU. The question is not whether they will trade with us or not but on what basis that trade will be. If we leave the EU and don't get a deal with it that gives us the same unrestricted access to the Single Market as we have now then the amount of trade we do with the EU will decrease. Also, when we leave the EU the 53 other trading partners the EU has trade agreements with will no longer apply to us, also leading to a reduction in trade. That reduction in trade will lead to job losses. It's not a question of if it will lead to job losses it's only a question of how many.

We may eventually make our own trade deals with those 53 and the EU but, as 60 million compared to 360 million, there is no logical reason to believe those deals would be better than we have now and every reason to believe they would be worse.

He can't have it all ways, slag off Cameron about Libya one minute and then back him the next.

Well actually, as the two issues are totally unrelated, he can. Just as I can agree with Teresa May on Europe but disagree with her new snooping charter, or agree with Boris Johnson on his transport for London policies but disagree with him on Europe.

Typical politician, does what suits at that time, no consistency.

Sarah"

To be honest, I don't really care whether Obama thinks we should be in the EU or not any more than I care that Boris Johnson thinks we shouldn't. However I'll listen to them both, bearing in mind how much this issue is actually their real concern, weight up what they say, check their facts and opinions against as many independent sources as I can and make my own mind up.

Any one who votes either way on the say or sway of any political personality is doing themselves and the UK a major disservice.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Why doesn't he worry about his own shit and leave us to crack on"
if they did that in the 1940s you would be speaking German right now

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By *nleashedCrakenMan
over a year ago

Widnes

They will still trade with us though, won't they?

He can't have it all ways, slag off Cameron about Libya one minute and then back him the next.

Typical politician, does what suits at that time, no consistency.

Sarah

TTIP (Transatlantic Trade and Investment Partnership) is nothing to do with privatising the NHS, in fact health provision is explicitly excluded from TTIP.

But either way, the UK government is currently the biggest supporter of TTIP within the EU and so would be extremely likely to try and negotiate a deal similar to TTIP with the US if we left. The only difference would be that, as a nation of 60 million, we would probably get less favourable terms from the US than as a trading block of 360 million.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Why doesn't he worry about his own shit and leave us to crack on if they did that in the 1940s you would be speaking German right now "

And so would he

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Craken, you seem to be contradicting yourself. If the rest of the world can impose higher tarrifs etc on us if we left then how is that not advantageous to them?

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By *nleashedCrakenMan
over a year ago

Widnes

"Why doesn't he worry about his own shit and leave us to crack on if they did that in the 1940s you would be speaking German right now

And so would he"

Actually he probably wouldn't because, under Nazi race rules, his father would have been either gassed or deported to Africa.

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By *aid backMan
over a year ago

by a lake with my rod out

America hold a lot if sway in the world, and there is nothing that is going to change that, so any American president, will have an impact on our lives, I'm not saying we should always bow to the will if America, but we should listen to what they have to say, its not like we have an abundance of ideas, now is it tony blair ended the northern ireland troubles and america wanted out of ww2. Pearl harbour and germany declaring war on america brought america in. "

tony Blair solved the northern Ireland troubles this has to be one of the funniest if not delusional statements ever made

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By *aid backMan
over a year ago

by a lake with my rod out

maybe Obama is over talking on behalf of the American companies that have an interest in keeping there business in the eu. the uk and Ireland are the only two countries that speak English in the eu and if uk leave the eu then maybe those companies might look to leave the uk ?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Why doesn't he worry about his own shit and leave us to crack on if they did that in the 1940s you would be speaking German right now

And so would he"
I beg to differ America would of won the war anyways after japan got nuked Germany wouldn't be too for behind

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By *nleashedCrakenMan
over a year ago

Widnes

"Craken, you seem to be contradicting yourself. If the rest of the world can impose higher tarrifs etc on us if we left then how is that not advantageous to them?"

Tariffs are never in the long term interests of either the country apply them or the country they are applied to. However they can sometimes be in the short-term interests of the country that is applying them.

However, in the case of the EU (and less so the 53), they have already decided that tariffs between them is not advantageous. Unfortunately, if we left the EU and didn't have recognised trade deals with the EU (and the 53) then we would have to fall back in GATT (General Agreement on Tariffs and Trade) and WTO (World Trade Organisation). Those rules are simple and legally binding. The most important of those rules is that no country can arbitrarily apply tariffs either to the favour or disfavour of another unless both parties are part of a customs union (like EU/EEA), a free trade area (like EFTA) or a bilateral/multilateral trade agreement. As the EU currently applies tariffs of up to 200% (although the average is closer to 3%) on goods from outside EU/EEA/EFTA + 53, it would have no choice but to either remove those tariffs from all or apply them to us. As we to currently apply the same tariffs to non EU (et al) we would have no choice either.

I'm constantly left wondering if those that advocate BREXIT have any real idea how international law and trading actually work.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Craken, you seem to be contradicting yourself. If the rest of the world can impose higher tarrifs etc on us if we left then how is that not advantageous to them?

I'm constantly left wondering if those that advocate BREXIT have any real idea how international law and trading actually work."

So you are basically saying that nothing would change if we left then. Thank you

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Why doesn't he worry about his own shit and leave us to crack on if they did that in the 1940s you would be speaking German right now

And so would he I beg to differ America would of won the war anyways after japan got nuked Germany wouldn't be too for behind "

You mean we would have been nuked then

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By *andS66Couple
over a year ago

Derby

It's an international issue whether you like it or not and leaders will comment, just as leaders in this country will comment on the US presidential election, for example.

-Courtney "

Leaders in this country have not told anyone in the US how to vote. Could you imagine if Cameron or Corbyn (who?) tried that? They would soon be told where to go... and quite rightly so.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

It's an international issue whether you like it or not and leaders will comment, just as leaders in this country will comment on the US presidential election, for example.

-Courtney

Leaders in this country have not told anyone in the US how to vote. Could you imagine if Cameron or Corbyn (who?) tried that? They would soon be told where to go... and quite rightly so. "

Read the rest of the thread and you'll see my answer. How the UK acts regarding the EU is not a purely domestic affair. It has regional, and international implications. As I've already stated, such things are constantly being told to the US, and other countries.

Leaders constantly weigh in on the foreign relations of other nations. It's part of international diplomacy.

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By *andS66Couple
over a year ago

Derby

"Look at the type of people who are trying to convince you to leave the EU, THEN decide if ita the right thing or not.

But then the general public were foolish enough to vote tories in again and look how fucked the country is gettinh. Serves them right for just following tabloid trash i guess."

Osborne, and his mates, are actually telling us to stay in, and how bad it will be if we leave.

Good of you to point out that what they want us to vote is not in the interests of the UK though.

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By *nleashedCrakenMan
over a year ago

Widnes

"Craken, you seem to be contradicting yourself. If the rest of the world can impose higher tarrifs etc on us if we left then how is that not advantageous to them?

I'm constantly left wondering if those that advocate BREXIT have any real idea how international law and trading actually work.

So you are basically saying that nothing would change if we left then. Thank you"

Saying I just said something when I clearly didn't does not add to your case.

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By *nleashedCrakenMan
over a year ago

Widnes

"Look at the type of people who are trying to convince you to leave the EU, THEN decide if ita the right thing or not.

But then the general public were foolish enough to vote tories in again and look how fucked the country is gettinh. Serves them right for just following tabloid trash i guess.

Osborne, and... "
half...
"his mates, are actually telling us to stay in, and how bad it will be if we leave.

Good of you to point out that what they want us to vote is not in the interests of the UK though."

Just to be absolutely correct!!

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By *isandreTV/TS
over a year ago

Durham

"If it's good for America what does that tell you?"

That they like trading with the UK because it is part of the EU, but might prefer trading more with a different country still in the EU instead?

That it's bad for Russia?

Give us a hint.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Stratigically the UK is important to the US in terms of foreign relations, military etc and its in their interests to campaign for the UK to stay within the EU, and that's not mentioning the economic aspect of trade etc.

I can see why he would come over and do so, whether it is seen as meddling or not is another matter.

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

It's an international issue whether you like it or not and leaders will comment, just as leaders in this country will comment on the US presidential election, for example.

-Courtney i think that was others criticising the american voting system. How would you feel if cameron went to america and told americans who to vote for?

Open minded people usually welcome the advice of intelligent and informed people. Close minded people don't. That is the same in the UK as it is in the US."

Well I'll tell you where I stand, then you can target your criticism better.

I have a big problem with the secret issues around TTIP.

If that's an example of the relationship we have with the US and the unelected body of the EU then what else are we going to get or how we are going to be treated.

the TTIP deal has seeded a lack of trust in what he has to say, and a measure of scepticism., especially if he's keen on taking the trouble of coming over here.

So.. Courtney, thankyou for the lecture (me being a thick Englishman and you educating me)but I am sure you'll forgive me if I form my own opinion based on the issues and vote my own way.

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By *nleashedCrakenMan
over a year ago

Widnes

It's an international issue whether you like it or not and leaders will comment, just as leaders in this country will comment on the US presidential election, for example.

-Courtney i think that was others criticising the american voting system. How would you feel if cameron went to america and told americans who to vote for?

Open minded people usually welcome the advice of intelligent and informed people. Close minded people don't. That is the same in the UK as it is in the US.

Well I'll tell you where I stand, then you can target your criticism better.

I have a big problem with the secret issues around TTIP.

If that's an example of the relationship we have with the US and the unelected body of the EU then what else are we going to get or how we are going to be treated.

the TTIP deal has seeded a lack of trust in what he has to say, and a measure of scepticism., especially if he's keen on taking the trouble of coming over here.

So.. Courtney, thankyou for the lecture (me being a thick Englishman and you educating me)but I am sure you'll forgive me if I form my own opinion based on the issues and vote my own way.

I'm pretty sure she won't feel the need to forgive you which ever way you chose to exercise your democratic vote.

However, whilst the democratic right to vote is only given to (mostly) UK nationals in this country, the democratic right to freedom of speech is granted to all, including US citizens and Presidents

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By *nleashedCrakenMan
over a year ago

Widnes

It's an international issue whether you like it or not and leaders will comment, just as leaders in this country will comment on the US presidential election, for example.

-Courtney i think that was others criticising the american voting system. How would you feel if cameron went to america and told americans who to vote for?

Open minded people usually welcome the advice of intelligent and informed people. Close minded people don't. That is the same in the UK as it is in the US.

Well I'll tell you where I stand, then you can target your criticism better.

I have a big problem with the secret issues around TTIP.

If that's an example of the relationship we have with the US and the unelected body of the EU then what else are we going to get or how we are going to be treated.

the TTIP deal has seeded a lack of trust in what he has to say, and a measure of scepticism., especially if he's keen on taking the trouble of coming over here.

So.. Courtney, thankyou for the lecture (me being a thick Englishman and you educating me)but I am sure you'll forgive me if I form my own opinion based on the issues and vote my own way.

What makes you think that the UK government, as the biggest supporter of TTIP in the EU won't simply make its own TTIP agreement with the US if we leave?

And all the information about TTIP is public record and freely available on UK, US and EU sites, despite what 38 degrees and others may tell you. (but that's another discussion for another thread on another day)

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

It's an international issue whether you like it or not and leaders will comment, just as leaders in this country will comment on the US presidential election, for example.

-Courtney i think that was others criticising the american voting system. How would you feel if cameron went to america and told americans who to vote for?

Open minded people usually welcome the advice of intelligent and informed people. Close minded people don't. That is the same in the UK as it is in the US.

Well I'll tell you where I stand, then you can target your criticism better.

I have a big problem with the secret issues around TTIP.

If that's an example of the relationship we have with the US and the unelected body of the EU then what else are we going to get or how we are going to be treated.

the TTIP deal has seeded a lack of trust in what he has to say, and a measure of scepticism., especially if he's keen on taking the trouble of coming over here.

So.. Courtney, thankyou for the lecture (me being a thick Englishman and you educating me)but I am sure you'll forgive me if I form my own opinion based on the issues and vote my own way.

My criticism?

I didn't start this thread, which is full of critism. I'm not trying to educate you on anything. I'm stating my opinion, same as you are.

You are allowed to disagree with Obama and the US in whatever ways you want. I don't believe Obama is making this choice for you. He is stating his opinion, as a UK ally and leader of a power country. He isn't the first and won't be the last person to weigh in on this, either.

I'm saying that we should learn from the opinions of informed people. Listen to the arguments, don't just see a foreigner who disagrees with you and dismiss it as meddling. As you put it, vote on the actual issue.

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By *isscheekychopsWoman
over a year ago

The land of grey peas and bacon

I'd love to meet Obama and give him a big kiss on the cheek

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I'd love to meet Obama and give him a big kiss on the cheek

Are you Cameron in drag?

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By *isscheekychopsWoman
over a year ago

The land of grey peas and bacon

"I'd love to meet Obama and give him a big kiss on the cheek

Are you Cameron in drag?

No I'm not, I like the guy I was still married to an American when he came into office. I thought it was an amazing achievement for him...

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I'd love to meet Obama and give him a big kiss on the cheek

Are you Cameron in drag?

No I'm not, I like the guy I was still married to an American when he came into office. I thought it was an amazing achievement for him... "

What, to marry an English woman?

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By *isscheekychopsWoman
over a year ago

The land of grey peas and bacon

"I'd love to meet Obama and give him a big kiss on the cheek

Are you Cameron in drag?

No I'm not, I like the guy I was still married to an American when he came into office. I thought it was an amazing achievement for him...

What, to marry an English woman?"

Haha

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By *dinMan
over a year ago

Birmingham

Obama's biggest achievement was getting into power, unfortunately he has achieved nothing worthwhile since. the man simply likes the sound of his own voice but there is no substance behind it!

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By *isandreTV/TS
over a year ago

Durham

You don't think he has been outrageously let down by Congress at times?

I'd say Obamacare was a hugely important victory. Future generations may well judge it one of the most important bill's in America's history.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

It's an international issue whether you like it or not and leaders will comment, just as leaders in this country will comment on the US presidential election, for example.

-Courtney i think that was others criticising the american voting system. How would you feel if cameron went to america and told americans who to vote for?

Open minded people usually welcome the advice of intelligent and informed people. Close minded people don't. That is the same in the UK as it is in the US.

Well I'll tell you where I stand, then you can target your criticism better.

I have a big problem with the secret issues around TTIP.

If that's an example of the relationship we have with the US and the unelected body of the EU then what else are we going to get or how we are going to be treated.

the TTIP deal has seeded a lack of trust in what he has to say, and a measure of scepticism., especially if he's keen on taking the trouble of coming over here.

So.. Courtney, thankyou for the lecture (me being a thick Englishman and you educating me)but I am sure you'll forgive me if I form my own opinion based on the issues and vote my own way.

What makes you think that the UK government, as the biggest supporter of TTIP in the EU won't simply make its own TTIP agreement with the US if we leave?

That's not what the independent or the guardian reported!

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By *LCCCouple
over a year ago

Cambridge

Honestly, what would the President of the US know about international politics? Oh yeah, probably quite a bit.

To me the EU referendum and the Scottish referendum cover the same basic question. Are we better off working together, or trying to live in isolation? For me, working together is always going to win.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Honestly, what would the President of the US know about international politics? Oh yeah, probably quite a bit.

To me the EU referendum and the Scottish referendum cover the same basic question. Are we better off working together, or trying to live in isolation? For me, working together is always going to win. "
.

The economic conundrum has always been how do you make people compete against each other without getting bogged down in nationalism, there best solution is remove nation states!.

Personally I think they were asking the wrong question all along!

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By *entaur_UKMan
over a year ago

Cannock

It's an international issue whether you like it or not and leaders will comment, just as leaders in this country will comment on the US presidential election, for example.

-Courtney i think that was others criticising the american voting system. How would you feel if cameron went to america and told americans who to vote for?

Open minded people usually welcome the advice of intelligent and informed people. Close minded people don't. That is the same in the UK as it is in the US.

Well I'll tell you where I stand, then you can target your criticism better.

I have a big problem with the secret issues around TTIP.

If that's an example of the relationship we have with the US and the unelected body of the EU then what else are we going to get or how we are going to be treated.

the TTIP deal has seeded a lack of trust in what he has to say, and a measure of scepticism., especially if he's keen on taking the trouble of coming over here.

So.. Courtney, thankyou for the lecture (me being a thick Englishman and you educating me)but I am sure you'll forgive me if I form my own opinion based on the issues and vote my own way.

What makes you think that the UK government, as the biggest supporter of TTIP in the EU won't simply make its own TTIP agreement with the US if we leave?

That's not what the independent or the guardian reported!"

It's not what Kate Hoey (Labour MP) and John Mills (Labour party donor) are saying about TTIP either. Trade Unions are also now showing real concern about TTIP and rightly so. Wonder what Corbyn thinks about it he seems to have gone AWOL on the EU issue.

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By *entaur_UKMan
over a year ago

Cannock

"You don't think he has been outrageously let down by Congress at times?

I'd say Obamacare was a hugely important victory. Future generations may well judge it one of the most important bill's in America's history.

Which all three republican candidates want to scrap if they become President.

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By *isandreTV/TS
over a year ago

Durham

"You don't think he has been outrageously let down by Congress at times?

I'd say Obamacare was a hugely important victory. Future generations may well judge it one of the most important bill's in America's history.

Which all three republican candidates want to scrap if they become President. "

Despite it already showing it is a success and much better than came before.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Hello CLCC,

" For me, working together is always going to win."

I would agree for a situation for Scotland in Great Britain. However, that principle will be very problematical when it is a conglomeration of nearly thirty countries with different cultures, economic performance and how many of them really are our allies when it comes down to how things are run. That and the unelected commission that makes our legislation whether it make sense for us or not. (frequently not)

It's just too big and clumsy, in the long term the best thing we can do is to wash our hands of it completely.

Alec

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By *isscheekychopsWoman
over a year ago

The land of grey peas and bacon

I think I need to see both sides of the story in terms of what we would get if we opt out and what do we get if we stay in. I want to hear a balanced arguement I will then base my decision.

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By *isandreTV/TS
over a year ago

Durham

'the unelected commission that makes our legislation whether it make sense for us or not. (frequently not)'

Except this really is a distortion. The EU is democratic. It is just a different system. Every Democratic system has it's flaws.

The House of Lords is unelected and it has its flaws, yet it plays a very important part in delivering us a better democracy than we otherwise would have. Most of the legislation our elected house get out is rushed, ill thought out rubbish. This is because these people are up for re-election very soon after getting in. In contrast the HOL doesn't have that problem. Despite being undemocratic, it does serve democracy.

If you look at America, they have the President, the Senate and the House, all elected, yet very little happens these days. What good legislation gets through usually has some ridiculous tag on bills.

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By *entaur_UKMan
over a year ago

Cannock

"Just another reason to vote out!

Desperate Dave trying to get anyone to speak up for him as he hasn't got a clue himself. Wonder what "scary" scenario O'Barmy will come up with?"

I wonder if Obama will "threaten" us with "consequences" if we leave the EU like President Hollande of France did the other week? I also wonder if David Cameron would stand there again smiling in silence while Britain is threatened by another world power (as he did when President Hollande made his veiled threat the other week).

Here is one for you Courtney. ...The sooner Britain votes to leave the EU and spineless Cameron gets 'thrown out of Downing street on his ear' the better.

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

I also think it,s time we stopped getting so involved with the USA foreign military .. The uk being implicated in the total tragic mess in the middle east caused by them and us. being involved in the illegal was in iraq, the countless deaths in the forces of all sides and the terrible suffering of migrants .. and countless civilian deaths..

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By *isscheekychopsWoman
over a year ago

The land of grey peas and bacon

"I also think it,s time we stopped getting so involved with the USA foreign military .. The uk being implicated in the total tragic mess in the middle east caused by them and us. being involved in the illegal was in iraq, the countless deaths in the forces of all sides and the terrible suffering of migrants .. and countless civilian deaths.. "

You do know that the US helped us win ww2 I think without them we would of been pretty fucked.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

You do know that the US helped us win ww2 I think without them we would of been pretty fucked. "

Where were they when it started?

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By *entaur_UKMan
over a year ago

Cannock

"'the unelected commission that makes our legislation whether it make sense for us or not. (frequently not)'

Except this really is a distortion. The EU is democratic. It is just a different system. Every Democratic system has it's flaws.

Tell us all how many times has the house of Lords over ruled the house of commons then?

Secondly there is no democratic mechanism in place for the people of Europe to remove the EU commission. Direct link between the people and the commission is broken ( non existent) so they don't have to listen to what the people say because the people can't elect them and the people have no mechanism to remove them either. Our MP's are accountable because they are elected directly by the people and they have to listen to what the people say otherwise the people can get rid of them at the next election by voting for someone else. The EU commission are unelected, distant, untouchable, arrogant and unaccountable.

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By *entaur_UKMan
over a year ago

Cannock

[Removed by poster at 15/03/16 18:10:02]

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By *entaur_UKMan
over a year ago

Cannock

I just find the whole military, security argument put forward by the remain in campaign irrelevant as we are in Nato. We will still be in Nato if we leave the EU.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Just another reason to vote out!

Desperate Dave trying to get anyone to speak up for him as he hasn't got a clue himself. Wonder what "scary" scenario O'Barmy will come up with?

Here is one for you Courtney. ...The sooner Britain votes to leave the EU and spineless Cameron gets 'thrown out of Downing street on his ear' the better.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Just another reason to vote out!

Desperate Dave trying to get anyone to speak up for him as he hasn't got a clue himself. Wonder what "scary" scenario O'Barmy will come up with?

Here is one for you Courtney. ...The sooner Britain votes to leave the EU and spineless Cameron gets 'thrown out of Downing street on his ear' the better.

Zat nasty monsieur Hollande wiz 'is scary threats. He will av us cowering under ze bed!

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By *isandreTV/TS
over a year ago

Durham

"Just another reason to vote out!

Desperate Dave trying to get anyone to speak up for him as he hasn't got a clue himself. Wonder what "scary" scenario O'Barmy will come up with?

Here is one for you Courtney. ...The sooner Britain votes to leave the EU and spineless Cameron gets 'thrown out of Downing street on his ear' the better.

Good grief.

There will be consequences if we leave the EU. You might not like to hear that said out loud, but it is true. To get the vote through the Brexiters want to pretend the only consequences will be good ones. Anyone pointing this out is 'threatening' them.

The Brexiters want to portray leaving Europe as getting us out of something undemocratic, yet it is just as democratic as the UK, but the system is different. They want to uncouple us from unjust laws, yet most of the laws and regulations are entirely sensible and some of them offer us much more protection from our own Government than we would otherwise be able to rely on.

Then there is the economic argument. There will be consequences. On the whole they may be positive for leaving the EU, or they may be negative. That is something we can only forecast. That is something we can only forecast if we know what alternative trading agreement with the EU the Brexiters are proposing we exchange the current one. They are keeping quiet on that either because they don't have a developed strategy or more likely because they want to appeal to a broad spectrum but know whichever option they go for will be then have its flaws revealed. It is easier to win a vote that is a straight Vote A or Vote Not A than Vote A or Vote B (or C, or D, where B is the Swiss option, C the Norwegian model and B is hundreds of new trade agreements with every country we trade with not just the EU).

Of course we will continue to trade with europe, the question is under what terms.

The Brexiters seem to have an appreciation of the negotiation of international trade treaties that consists of a conversation in their heads that goes like this

'UK : Right we're leaving, we'll have free trade agreements, no red tape, no regulations, all the good things we want we get and none of the things you want in return you'll get.

Austria, Belgium, Bulgaria, Croatia, Republic of Cyprus, Czech Republic, Denmark, Estonia, Finland, France, Germany, Greece, Hungary, Ireland, Italy, Latvia, Lithuania, Luxembourg, Malta, Netherlands, Poland, Portugal, Romania, Slovakia, Slovenia, Spain, Sweden :

Monsieur Hollande was merely saying they might have a few conditions and changes of their own.

Obama, in addition to his appreciation of the UK's role diplomatically and militarily in Europe, is saying the UK does well with its trading with America in part because of its placement in the EU. Leave and some of that custom might naturally drift to other countries in the EU. Ireland, Scotland if it gets another referendum will be natural options, indeed Ireland is now, but I suspect Frankfurt will benefit most.

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By *isandreTV/TS
over a year ago

Durham

'The EU commission are unelected, distant, untouchable, arrogant and unaccountable.'

A new team of 28 Commissioners (one from each EU Member State) is appointed every five years.

The candidate for President of the Commission is proposed to the European Parliament by the European Council that decides by qualified majority and taking into account the elections to the European Parliament.

The Commission President is then elected by the European Parliament by a majority of its component members (which corresponds to at least 376 out of 751 votes).

Following this election, the President-elect selects the 27 other members of the Commission, on the basis of the suggestions made by Member States. The final list of Commissioners-designate has then to be agreed between the President-elect and the Council. The Commission as a whole needs the Parliament's consent. Prior to this, Commissioners-designate are assessed by the European Parliament committees.

There seems to be an awful lot of democracy going on there. Plus they can only be distant, untouchable arrogant for 5 years, when they may find they become accountable.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Just another reason to vote out!

Desperate Dave trying to get anyone to speak up for him as he hasn't got a clue himself. Wonder what "scary" scenario O'Barmy will come up with?

Here is one for you Courtney. ...The sooner Britain votes to leave the EU and spineless Cameron gets 'thrown out of Downing street on his ear' the better.

Good grief.

Of course we will continue to trade with europe, the question is under what terms.

The Brexiters seem to have an appreciation of the negotiation of international trade treaties that consists of a conversation in their heads that goes like this

'UK : Right we're leaving, we'll have free trade agreements, no red tape, no regulations, all the good things we want we get and none of the things you want in return you'll get.

Monsieur Hollande was merely saying they might have a few conditions and changes of their own.

So why are they so keen for us to stay? I suspect that Frankfurt will benefit least and once we have left it won't be long before others leave and the EU dream collapses

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

That pesky dream of countries working together and getting along together - yes, let's hope it all collapses back into the centuries of hatred and warfare.

Can't wait

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Probably a good thing you don't live where I live then

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"That pesky dream of countries working together and getting along together - yes, let's hope it all collapses back into the centuries of hatred and warfare.

Can't wait

The EU is nothing to do with us working together and getting along together, wake up

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By *isandreTV/TS
over a year ago

Durham

So why are they so keen for us to stay? I suspect that Frankfurt will benefit least and once we have left it won't be long before others leave and the EU dream collapses"

They are keen for us to stay because it doesn't benefit them either. It doesn't benefit us, probably, on the whole. It doesn't benefit them, maybe even worse at the current time.

The EU may well collapse. You think that chaos will benefit us?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Bloody heck it will take me for ever to read all this thread, far too many big replies

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By *isandreTV/TS
over a year ago

Durham

'The EU is nothing to do with us working together and getting along together, wake up'

What is it about then?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

So why are they so keen for us to stay? I suspect that Frankfurt will benefit least and once we have left it won't be long before others leave and the EU dream collapses

They are keen for us to stay because it doesn't benefit them either. It doesn't benefit us, probably, on the whole. It doesn't benefit them, maybe even worse at the current time.

The EU may well collapse. You think that chaos will benefit us?

No but it will happen soon enough anyway and at least we'll have a head start

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"'The EU is nothing to do with us working together and getting along together, wake up'

What is it about then?

I really don't know

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By *ohnaronMan
over a year ago

london

"Look at the type of people who are trying to convince you to leave the EU, THEN decide if ita the right thing or not.

But then the general public were foolish enough to vote tories in again and look how fucked the country is gettinh. Serves them right for just following tabloid trash i guess."

Totally agree. If we come out big boys will rip up employment law, health and safety, food labelling. And since the British public voted this lot in they might be just med enough to vote out.

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By *isandreTV/TS
over a year ago

Durham

Well, according to it's own website

'The EU was created in the aftermath of the Second World War. The first steps were to foster economic cooperation: the idea being that countries who trade with one another become economically interdependent and so more likely to avoid conflict.'

Are you aware of any of it's member states going to war with other member states once they joined?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Look at the type of people who are trying to convince you to leave the EU, THEN decide if ita the right thing or not.

But then the general public were foolish enough to vote tories in again and look how fucked the country is gettinh. Serves them right for just following tabloid trash i guess.

Totally agree. If we come out big boys will rip up employment law, health and safety, food labelling. And since the British public voted this lot in they might be just med enough to vote out."

So why do the big boys want us to stay in?

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By *otlovefun42Couple
over a year ago

Costa Blanca Spain...

When the US joins a political union with Canada, Mexico, Guatemala, Honduras, Nicaragua, Costa Rica, Panama, Cuba, Etc. Etc. Then they can lecture us.

But we still wont listen.

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By *LCCCouple
over a year ago

Cambridge

"Hello CLCC,

" For me, working together is always going to win."

It's just too big and clumsy, in the long term the best thing we can do is to wash our hands of it completely.

Alec"

But Alec, has a local council ever done something you don't agree with? Has the Government ever done something you dont agree with? Has the EU ever done something you dont agree with?

I'm going to guess Yes for all of those. So it is in the nature of politics (not just democracy, because im sure dictators do things you wouldnt like either) that decisions are made that you dont like, however local or far away they are.

For every decision made, there will be supporters and critics, that's life. To expect that you would agree with everything that the national government does, just because we are out of Europe, is in my opinion, naive.

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By *ohnaronMan
over a year ago

london

"Look at the type of people who are trying to convince you to leave the EU, THEN decide if ita the right thing or not.

But then the general public were foolish enough to vote tories in again and look how fucked the country is gettinh. Serves them right for just following tabloid trash i guess.

Totally agree. If we come out big boys will rip up employment law, health and safety, food labelling. And since the British public voted this lot in they might be just med enough to vote out.

So why do the big boys want us to stay in?"

Not saying they want us to come out, just what will happen if we do.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"When the US joins a political union with Canada, Mexico, Guatemala, Honduras, Nicaragua, Costa Rica, Panama, Cuba, Etc. Etc. Then they can lecture us.

But we still wont listen."
.

They sort of have, they even have a currency called I think the amero but don't quote me on it!

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"When the US joins a political union with Canada, Mexico, Guatemala, Honduras, Nicaragua, Costa Rica, Panama, Cuba, Etc. Etc. Then they can lecture us.

But we still wont listen..

They sort of have, they even have a currency called I think the amero but don't quote me on it!"

I have American dollars in my purse, I spend them here in the UK

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By *nleashedCrakenMan
over a year ago

Widnes

"Just another reason to vote out!

Desperate Dave trying to get anyone to speak up for him as he hasn't got a clue himself. Wonder what "scary" scenario O'Barmy will come up with?

That's just ridiculous rubbish, and you know it. Hollande simply said there will be consequences if we leave; there is no implied threat, just a simple statement of the fact. Are you seriously saying that you believe that leaving the EU will no consequences, that it would make no difference? If that is what you really believe then why are you spending so much time trying to achieve it?

Now who's really doing the scaremongering?

Here is one for you Courtney. ...The sooner Britain votes to leave the EU and spineless Cameron gets 'thrown out of Downing street on his ear' the better.

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By *ouple in LancashireCouple
over a year ago

in Lancashire

"It really annoys me when foreigners meddle when it doesn't concern them.

Yes, like Britain hasn't got a history of that or anything."

this..

oh the fucking irony..

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By *ouple in LancashireCouple
over a year ago

in Lancashire

anyway if the Pres does want to pop round to have a chat about the referendum, he'll have to make do with tea..

proper tea, none of that foreign muck like Earl Grey..

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I just find the whole military, security argument put forward by the remain in campaign irrelevant as we are in Nato. We will still be in Nato if we leave the EU. "
And who has the most powerful military in NATO? Who is the UK biggest allie outside brie eu? Who owns trident? Which country is the biggest invester in UK companies? All the answers are the same the same president whoes opinion you don't Wana hear it's not just Obama the leaders In the last G20 summit said it wasn't th best idea for the UK the leave the eu but what do these guys know? They are only the leaders of the world 20 most powerful countries .I'm sure sovereignty and immigration is way more important than business and the economy

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By *nleashedCrakenMan
over a year ago

Widnes

"Just another reason to vote out!

Desperate Dave trying to get anyone to speak up for him as he hasn't got a clue himself. Wonder what "scary" scenario O'Barmy will come up with?

Here is one for you Courtney. ...The sooner Britain votes to leave the EU and spineless Cameron gets 'thrown out of Downing street on his ear' the better.

Good grief.

Of course we will continue to trade with europe, the question is under what terms.

The Brexiters seem to have an appreciation of the negotiation of international trade treaties that consists of a conversation in their heads that goes like this

'UK : Right we're leaving, we'll have free trade agreements, no red tape, no regulations, all the good things we want we get and none of the things you want in return you'll get.

Monsieur Hollande was merely saying they might have a few conditions and changes of their own.

So why are they so keen for us to stay? I suspect that Frankfurt will benefit least and once we have left it won't be long before others leave and the EU dream collapses"

I fail to see how the collapse of the EU is in Britain's interests whether we're in the EU or not.

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By *nleashedCrakenMan
over a year ago

Widnes

"That pesky dream of countries working together and getting along together - yes, let's hope it all collapses back into the centuries of hatred and warfare.

Can't wait

The EU is nothing to do with us working together and getting along together, wake up"

Maybe not in your opinion.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Well, according to it's own website

Are you aware of any of it's member states going to war with other member states once they joined?"

That may have been the aim in the first place but it has become a bloated beauracracy, a gravy train and vanity project for failed/former/corrupt/wannabe pretend politicians and cannot, well, won't continue as it is. No matter what they try to improve the economies in the Euro zone nothing is working and with interest rates at zero there is nowhere left to go

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By *nleashedCrakenMan
over a year ago

Widnes

"Look at the type of people who are trying to convince you to leave the EU, THEN decide if ita the right thing or not.

But then the general public were foolish enough to vote tories in again and look how fucked the country is gettinh. Serves them right for just following tabloid trash i guess.

Totally agree. If we come out big boys will rip up employment law, health and safety, food labelling. And since the British public voted this lot in they might be just med enough to vote out.

So why do the big boys want us to stay in?"

I guess some who want us to stay in don't know what their talking about either.

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By *entaur_UKMan
over a year ago

Cannock

I just find the whole military, security argument put forward by the remain in campaign irrelevant as we are in Nato. We will still be in Nato if we leave the EU. And who has the most powerful military in NATO? Who is the UK biggest allie outside brie eu? Who owns trident? Which country is the biggest invester in UK companies? All the answers are the same the same president whoes opinion you don't Wana hear it's not just Obama the leaders In the last G20 summit said it wasn't th best idea for the UK the leave the eu but what dto these guys know? They are only the leaders of the world 20 most powerful countries .I'm sure sovereignty and immigration is way more important than business and the economy"

Why do you assume business and the economy will be better for Britain in the EU. The former bank of England governor Mervyn King says to Eurozone is doomed to failure, the former British Chambers of commerce director general John Longworth says business will be better off outside of the EU, free of EU business red tape and I read an article in one of today's newspapers written by Professor Patrick Minford who is Professor of applied economics of Cardiff business school in which he says our economy will be better off outside of the EU. Just some quick figures from the article he wrote he says the price of goods in the UK would fall by upto 8% if we leave the EU, and our economy would be boosted by 4%. Please explain how that will be bad for Britain.

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By *entaur_UKMan
over a year ago

Cannock

"That pesky dream of countries working together and getting along together - yes, let's hope it all collapses back into the centuries of hatred and warfare.

Can't wait

The EU is nothing to do with us working together and getting along together, wake up

Maybe not in your opinion."

What makes your opinion more valid than anyone else's then? Everyone is entitled to their own opinion on here.

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By *nleashedCrakenMan
over a year ago

Widnes

When someone or anyone from BREXIT actually tells what sort of 'out' out actually means we can then start talking about whether it would be better or not but so far all the possible exit scenarios seem to point to things being worse post BREXIT. Maybe you could tell us which of the possible BREXIT scenarios these people you quote are actually talking about?

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By *nleashedCrakenMan
over a year ago

Widnes

"That pesky dream of countries working together and getting along together - yes, let's hope it all collapses back into the centuries of hatred and warfare.

Can't wait

The EU is nothing to do with us working together and getting along together, wake up

Maybe not in your opinion.

What makes your opinion more valid than anyone else's then? Everyone is entitled to their own opinion on here. "

I never said it was but at least I back up what I do say with reasoned argument and actual fact and try not to personalise it.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

It is entirely possible that sometimes you can be better off despite being worse off!.

It all depends on your outlook in life

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By *enard ArgenteMan
over a year ago

London and France

Economics is largely guesswork;

And for every economist who says the UK economy will be boosted by leaving, and that prices in UK will drop, there is one who will say that the UK economy will slump, and that prices will rise ( some estimates being as much as 29/30% - bringing UK in line with the other " non EU" European countries....)

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By *entaur_UKMan
over a year ago

Cannock

"That pesky dream of countries working together and getting along together - yes, let's hope it all collapses back into the centuries of hatred and warfare.

Can't wait

The EU is nothing to do with us working together and getting along together, wake up

Maybe not in your opinion.

What makes your opinion more valid than anyone else's then? Everyone is entitled to their own opinion on here.

I never said it was but at least I back up what I do say with reasoned argument and actual fact and try not to personalise it."

I've been backing up what I've said on this thread with reasoned argument and actual fact maybe you should go back and read through the thread again. You've also been doing a fair bit of your own making it personal on here too.

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By *ittie4UCouple
over a year ago

Watford

"As Boris said, America would not put up with the same restraints that the EU call for to be part of thier club. "

Boris is a complete dick isn't he. And you Brexiters lap it up.

Of course America wouldn't. It's about the same size as the EU is. But California would, Texas would, New York State would. They are all close to the size of the UK.

That's the whole point! You pool a small amount of sovereignty to be party of a bigger, more powerful entity.

Brilliant analysis, Boris.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

You are like a dog with a bone. You mention Mervyn King's comments endlessly, even though he pointed out that the problems he potentially foresees in the Eurozone will effect the UK whether we are in the EU or not. At the same time you completely ignore the views of the current governer of the Bank of England. Wonder why that is?

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By *nleashedCrakenMan
over a year ago

Widnes

"That pesky dream of countries working together and getting along together - yes, let's hope it all collapses back into the centuries of hatred and warfare.

Can't wait

The EU is nothing to do with us working together and getting along together, wake up

Maybe not in your opinion.

What makes your opinion more valid than anyone else's then? Everyone is entitled to their own opinion on here.

I never said it was but at least I back up what I do say with reasoned argument and actual fact and try not to personalise it.

To criticise a person's point of view is not a personal criticism of that person, just their point of view. But this thread is not about whether you or I have been over personal and such discussion is pointless and simply a deviation tactic to avoid addressing the question. So I'll ask the question again. What sort of BREXIT are those people you quoted actually talking about?

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By *entaur_UKMan
over a year ago

Cannock

Economics is largely guesswork;

That is why people need to do their own research and look at facts, figures and stats and then come to their own conclusions. I prefer to take the optimistic approach rather than the pessimistic one being put forward by the remain in camp. Plus world events such as the Eurozone crisis and the migrant crisis in the EU and what is happening with Turkey also suggests strongly to me that we need to get out now.

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By *ittie4UCouple
over a year ago

Watford

"I've been backing up what I've said on this thread with reasoned argument and actual fact maybe you should go back and read through the thread again. You've also been doing a fair bit of your own making it personal on here too. "

I have read through the post and actually you really don't. Sure, you present the odd bit of data to support your view, but you certainly do not present any reasoned argument.

And you continue to act in a very aggressive way to anyone who disagrees with you. As you well know. Most EU threads on here contain you having crossed words with someone who doesn't agree with you.

Still, you only have 100 days left. Hopefully you'll have got rid of some of your aggression by then. And I'll make a note to send you a thank you when we vote to stay in the EU. You will have done much for the cause.

Keep up the good work!

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By *entaur_UKMan
over a year ago

Cannock

The current governor of the bank of England Mark Carney also warned of possible risks to staying in the EU if you watched to full duration of his session with the commons select committee (which you probably chose to ignore).

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By *entaur_UKMan
over a year ago

Cannock

I have read through the post and actually you really don't. Sure, you present the odd bit of data to support your view, but you certainly do not present any reasoned argument.

And you continue to act in a very aggressive way to anyone who disagrees with you. As you well know. Most EU threads on here contain you having crossed words with someone who doesn't agree with you.

Keep up the good work!"

Likewise i'll send you a nice piece of humble pie to eat when we leave the EU on June 23rd.

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By *nleashedCrakenMan
over a year ago

Widnes

I have read through the post and actually you really don't. Sure, you present the odd bit of data to support your view, but you certainly do not present any reasoned argument.

And you continue to act in a very aggressive way to anyone who disagrees with you. As you well know. Most EU threads on here contain you having crossed words with someone who doesn't agree with you.

Keep up the good work!"

Hey, compared to most BREXITers, he's comparatively reasonable. And, yes I know, that's a bit personal and a backhanded compliment but I'm only human.

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By *entaur_UKMan
over a year ago

Cannock

"That pesky dream of countries working together and getting along together - yes, let's hope it all collapses back into the centuries of hatred and warfare.

Can't wait

The EU is nothing to do with us working together and getting along together, wake up

Maybe not in your opinion.

What makes your opinion more valid than anyone else's then? Everyone is entitled to their own opinion on here.

I never said it was but at least I back up what I do say with reasoned argument and actual fact and try not to personalise it.

So you saying people should listen to Obama is not trying to personalise the debate then or getting peopke involved in personality politics?

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By *entaur_UKMan
over a year ago

Cannock

"That pesky dream of countries working together and getting along together - yes, let's hope it all collapses back into the centuries of hatred and warfare.

Can't wait

The EU is nothing to do with us working together and getting along together, wake up

Maybe not in your opinion.

What makes your opinion more valid than anyone else's then? Everyone is entitled to their own opinion on here.

I never said it was but at least I back up what I do say with reasoned argument and actual fact and try not to personalise it.

So you saying people should listen to Obama is not trying to personalise the debate then or getting peopke involved in personality politics? "

*people

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Just to remind you, because you seem to be unable to remember - Mark Carney clearly stated that the BIGGEST domestic risk to the UK is Brexit. Of course there are risks with staying, but the BIGGEST risk is leaving.

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By *nleashedCrakenMan
over a year ago

Widnes

"That pesky dream of countries working together and getting along together - yes, let's hope it all collapses back into the centuries of hatred and warfare.

Can't wait

The EU is nothing to do with us working together and getting along together, wake up

Maybe not in your opinion.

What makes your opinion more valid than anyone else's then? Everyone is entitled to their own opinion on here.

I never said it was but at least I back up what I do say with reasoned argument and actual fact and try not to personalise it.

So you saying people should listen to Obama is not trying to personalise the debate then or getting peopke involved in personality politics? "

As I said way-way way up in the thread; people should listen to all who have a reasoned point of view, weight up what they have to say, how close they are to the outcome of the issue, check the facts for themselves and make their own minds up. I also said that anyone who votes on this issue, either leave or remain, on the basis of any personality is doing neither England, the UK, the EU or anyone any favours.

And I'm still waiting for an answer to my question.

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By *llen n SebbCouple
over a year ago

Walkinstown

Who is Obama coming over to persuade to stay in the EU ?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

What a debate! I am pro EU, or used to be having worked there, yet due to the way the EU has dealt with the most recent issues it has been faced with I honestly feel very disappointed.

Firstly, the fundamental freedom of movement is not working (practically leading to people dying who are fleeing over here) - and the EU is reluctant to do anything about it (i.e ensure manned checkpoints Europewide to aid the influx of people) as being a fundamental freedom it is a cornerstone of its system. So the EU won't really budge on that one.

Secondly, we are a prosperous country in our own right. If we leave there are a myriad of options one being joining WTO for instance. Yes, Scotland and Wales would likely wish for independence as they would relish EU membership, mainly due to both countries having many geographical areas that the EU sees should be assisted; hence, gain EU funds for economic development. We ARE able to operate without the two economy wise - it's just a matter of history and politics in breaking the countries up that shall be the real issue.

Thirdly, re: Human rights the Council of Europe is not a European Institution and as such leaving the EU does not mean automatic renunciation of the ECHR. In any case we are sophisticated enough to draft our own, effective HR laws. The government wouldn't dare pass a dodgy HR bill, I wouldn't be able to afford the backlash it would get from its own people and in the international arena, now it would be an independent state.

Fourthly, the US needs us in there as we are its gateway to the EU. Let's think about it - the CIA and Mossad really need us in there. They both work in tandem (i.e. 'appear' to have the same agenda being 'against' the East). However, I predict that if we exit the EU the US will end up latching on to Germany, which appears to remain, somewhat reluctantly, partisan to Israeli politics due to its own obvious history.

Please don't take the above as being set in stone - I'm not preaching at all and these are mainly my own contributions.

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By *llen n SebbCouple
over a year ago

Walkinstown

"As Boris said, America would not put up with the same restraints that the EU call for to be part of thier club.

Free trade should be just that not have to pay for the honed or trading with the rest of the countries.

If the uk left the EU do you really think that other contries are not going to trade with us? And tone honest the way things are in the world I think we could do with tightening up the borders again.

It's too easy for the undesirables to move around Europe now once they are in nobody gets checked! They just wonder from country to country "

The USA is the American equivalent of the EU.

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By *entaur_UKMan
over a year ago

Cannock

"That pesky dream of countries working together and getting along together - yes, let's hope it all collapses back into the centuries of hatred and warfare.

Can't wait

The EU is nothing to do with us working together and getting along together, wake up

Maybe not in your opinion.

What makes your opinion more valid than anyone else's then? Everyone is entitled to their own opinion on here.

I never said it was but at least I back up what I do say with reasoned argument and actual fact and try not to personalise it.

So you saying people should listen to Obama is not trying to personalise the debate then or getting peopke involved in personality politics?

And I'm still waiting for an answer to my question."

You want next weeks lottery numbers too?

I don't have a crystal ball and I can't tell the future, no more than you can either. Maybe I should ask you what Britain will look like if Turkey joins the EU and we have to accept free movement of people from Turkey? However if we leave the EU we can control our borders if Canada can get a free trade deal with the EU where they do not have to accept free movement of people then why can't Britain do it too? Our deal won't be exactly the same as Canada, Norway or Switzerland either it will be a unique British deal. For goodness sake what is with all this pessimism that we are not good enough, inventive enough, big enough or good enough to make a success of our country outside of the EU. This lack of faith in our country from the remain in camp really is depressing.

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By *nleashedCrakenMan
over a year ago

Widnes

"That pesky dream of countries working together and getting along together - yes, let's hope it all collapses back into the centuries of hatred and warfare.

Can't wait

The EU is nothing to do with us working together and getting along together, wake up

Maybe not in your opinion.

What makes your opinion more valid than anyone else's then? Everyone is entitled to their own opinion on here.

I never said it was but at least I back up what I do say with reasoned argument and actual fact and try not to personalise it.

So you saying people should listen to Obama is not trying to personalise the debate then or getting peopke involved in personality politics?

And I'm still waiting for an answer to my question.

You want next weeks lottery numbers too?

As I have never said the UK could not prosper or survive out side the EU that's a bit of a straw man argument. My argument is not that we could not survive or prosper outside of the EU but that we will be more prosperous and flourish within. However I would also argue that the uncertainty created by leaving the EU and the restrictive access to the European Single Market that that would mean would definitely, in the short and possibly medium term, lead to a reduction in trade for the UK which would inevitably lead to job losses. The only question is, depending on what deal we may get if we leave (if any), is how many jobs would be lost.

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By *andS66Couple
over a year ago

Derby

It's an international issue whether you like it or not and leaders will comment, just as leaders in this country will comment on the US presidential election, for example.

-Courtney

Leaders in this country have not told anyone in the US how to vote. Could you imagine if Cameron or Corbyn (who?) tried that? They would soon be told where to go... and quite rightly so.

Leaders constantly weigh in on the foreign relations of other nations. It's part of international diplomacy."

As the world's superpower, the next president of the USA is, I would say, of international consequence and importance, having regional and international consequences. It is therefore not just a domestic issue to the US. As such, do you think Cameron and Corbyn should go and advise American citizens which way to vote? And how do you think they would feel about that?

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By *nleashedCrakenMan
over a year ago

Widnes

"That pesky dream of countries working together and getting along together - yes, let's hope it all collapses back into the centuries of hatred and warfare.

Can't wait

The EU is nothing to do with us working together and getting along together, wake up

Maybe not in your opinion.

What makes your opinion more valid than anyone else's then? Everyone is entitled to their own opinion on here.

I never said it was but at least I back up what I do say with reasoned argument and actual fact and try not to personalise it.

So you saying people should listen to Obama is not trying to personalise the debate then or getting peopke involved in personality politics?

And I'm still waiting for an answer to my question.

You want next weeks lottery numbers too?

Well if you have them I'll take 'em.

I don't have a crystal ball and I can't tell the future, no more than you can either.

You don't need a crystal ball to predict the obvious, and totally abandoning our services trade with the EU and moving from a position of free unrestricted trade to a position of trading with tariffs is going to reduce trade and lead to job losses.

" Maybe I should ask you what Britain will look like if Turkey joins the EU and we have to accept free movement of people from Turkey?"
There is zero prospect of Turkey being allowed into the EU anytime soon, if ever. But even if there was, all existing members have a veto over any new members so, if Turkey ever persuade Greece and Cyprus to agree to let them in, as a member of the EU we could block it if we chose.
" However if we leave the EU we can control our borders

"
Not if we still want unrestricted access to the single market we won't and, as I said in reply further up, we do control our own borders and could, under current EU rules, refuse entry to many more EU nationals than we currently choose to, but we choose not to. Leaving the EU will not change that.
" if Canada can get a free trade deal with the EU where they do not have to accept free movement of people then why can't Britain do it too?"
Canada does not a truly free trade agreement with the EU. It has a yet to be implemented trade agreement with the EU which does not cover services (which the UK currently has a surplus with with the EU) and will have tariffs on food and cars. Such a deal for the UK would definitely lead to a reduction in trade between the EU and the UK
" Our deal won't be exactly the same as Canada, Norway or Switzerland either it will be a unique British deal."
I agree any deal we get won't be exactly the same as Canada, Norway or Switzerland; it may be a little better or maybe a little worse but it won't be significantly different than one of them and definitely won't be as good as the deal we currently have now, which is unrestricted access and a seat at the decision making table. Why would the EU, when we no longer have any say in how it's being run, give us a better deal than we have now
" For goodness sake what is with all this pessimism that we are not good enough, inventive enough, big enough or good enough (ed. you just said that twice) to make a success of our country outside of the EU. This lack of faith in our country from the remain in camp really is depressing. "

It's not a lack of faith in the UK but a believe that we are all stronger together, that the sum of the parts is more than it's constituent pieces, that in an ever more dangerous world it's safer and better to work with your friends than to stand isolated alone.

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By *nleashedCrakenMan
over a year ago

Widnes

It's an international issue whether you like it or not and leaders will comment, just as leaders in this country will comment on the US presidential election, for example.

-Courtney

Leaders in this country have not told anyone in the US how to vote. Could you imagine if Cameron or Corbyn (who?) tried that? They would soon be told where to go... and quite rightly so.

Leaders constantly weigh in on the foreign relations of other nations. It's part of international diplomacy.

Well quite a few already have and I would guess their reaction is pretty much the same as ours. Those that have made up there minds and agree with what is being said will welcome it, those who have made up their minds and don't agree with what is being said will call it foreign interference, and those that are undecided will probably listen to what is said, weight it up in their own minds, give it the weight they think it deserves, listen to others and maybe make a decision partly based on it.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

have we need not survived centuries without the eu ? is this not England anymore ? can we not stand on our own two feet ? do we need cretins who tells who say England will fall if we don't stay in the eu .

I say let England be one and free again

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