FabSwingers.com forum: EU Referendum

By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

Guys I know this is a "done to death" topic already and we are sentenced to 4 months of debate on the merits of staying or leaving the EU. The first opinion polls are due tomorrow but I wondered if forumites would respond with either a yes or no reply. Yes means staying in the EU with the Cameron revisions or No which means leaving the EU.

It seems FAB has a broad representation of people and may give a pointer? I will collate the results of the first 150 respondents that is of course if 150 can be arsed to respond!

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I don't think that it has been done to death at all as it's such an important choice for the whole country.

As long as it stays in the lounge it's not a problem as this is the place for any subjects and does not have to be about swinging or shagging

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

"I don't think that it has been done to death at all as it's such an important choice for the whole country.

As long as it stays in the lounge it's not a problem as this is the place for any subjects and does not have to be about swinging or shagging

"
So that's a maybe?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I'll kick it off with a No then!

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

"I'll kick it off with a No then!"
So far the No's to the left have it! Thanks!

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Yes.

And I really fucking hope the _iews espoused on here aren't representative, or God help us all.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Cameron has said on the news last night "He will not stand for election again"

Makes me wonder why he's said that?

Purely on the above its a NO from me.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I'm an undecided ....

But David Cameron is speaking live right now promoting the in campaign and he is making a very reasonable case for staying in....

As yet I've still to hear anyone from the out campaigns offer such a plausibly persuasive analysis of reasons to leave,,,

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By *oyce69Man
over a year ago

Driffield

It's a no from me.

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

Rubes

47.67m people will be eligible to vote in this referendum that's circa 10m more than were eligible in 1975. Of course this site is not a true demographical representation of the electorate but it would give an indication of the voice of the people?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Yes.

Purely from the fact the SNP will then shut their cake holes for another few weeks before banging on about another independence referendum.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Rubes

I know. But if it's the voice of the people, the people are (mostly) idiots.

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

"I'm an undecided ....

But David Cameron is speaking live right now promoting the in campaign and he is making a very reasonable case for staying in....

As yet I've still to hear anyone from the out campaigns offer such a plausibly persuasive analysis of reasons to leave,,, "
But at this moment in time Sox what do feel? Spoiled ballot papers are excluded!

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By *igzag1Man
over a year ago

hartlepool

We need out of Europe what people may not no October 2016 turkey will enter the eu that's 75 million people that will be allowed to travel across Europe freely and enter the uk Europe will end at Syria God help us if we stop in

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

"Rubes

I know. But if it's the voice of the people, the people are (mostly) idiots. "
That Rubes is what we refer to as democracy!

Its neck and neck at the moment!

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Seems to me that if you want to leave your looked upon as racist! A lot of people my age want to vote to stay, I think its a disaster the EU, id rather we get out, build our country then trade with them and the world on our own terms

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

"We need out of Europe what people may not no October 2016 turkey will enter the eu that's 75 million people that will be allowed to travel across Europe freely and enter the uk Europe will end at Syria God help us if we stop in"

Is that a vote to leave (please don't reply yes as that will confuse the Vox Pop !!)

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

"Seems to me that if you want to leave your looked upon as racist! A lot of people my age want to vote to stay, I think its a disaster the EU, id rather we get out, build our country then trade with them and the world on our own terms"
a yes vote then....................your not making this easy!

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I'm an undecided ....

But David Cameron is speaking live right now promoting the in campaign and he is making a very reasonable case for staying in....

As yet I've still to hear anyone from the out campaigns offer such a plausibly persuasive analysis of reasons to leave,,, But at this moment in time Sox what do feel? Spoiled ballot papers are excluded!"

My thoughts are remembering how socially and economically the mid 70's was not a great time in Britain and the EU was a much smaller entity than the 28 countries it now contains... (If my memory serves me I think we became the 9th member)

But the whole world has moved on since then and I'm not convinced anyone fully understand what it would mean for us to leave,,,,

But I'm open to persuasion ..... I see no point assuming I know what's best...

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Hello Lord Byron,

count me as a NO, to leave.

Thank you.

Alec

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

"Hello Lord Byron,

count me as a NO, to leave.

Thank you.

Alec"

Thank Mr Able you vote has been recoded.

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

"I'm an undecided ....

But David Cameron is speaking live right now promoting the in campaign and he is making a very reasonable case for staying in....

But the whole world has moved on since then and I'm not convinced anyone fully understand what it would mean for us to leave,,,,

But I'm open to persuasion ..... I see no point assuming I know what's best...

"
I am with you on this Sox as I just do not know the consequences of my vote. However being an old and aging Hippy I am and have been a member of CND for 30 years. I can remember the cold war era and the remarks of a famous general who said we fought world war one in Europe and most or world war two in Europe and you jerks' will let us we will fight world war three in Europe. The main articles of the treaty of Rome forbids a member state from taking up arms against another member. In the last 600 years more blood has been spilt in Europe than in any other part of the globe. So if Brussels have a _iew on the shape of bananas and the MEPs fiddle their expenses my _iew its a very small list of gripes for peace in a very dangerous place to live?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Sorry but there's simply no concept of "trading on our own terms" with economies that are 6-7 times bigger than ours! Negotiation just doesn't work that way. If you want to vote out then start thinking about whether you prefer waking up with Chinese or American cock on your breath...

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

Current exit poll would suggest the No (leaving) are at 66.66%

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

Keep the votes piling in, he says optimistically, as this returning officer must do some work to pay the large tax bill that has just come through!

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I'm an undecided ....

But David Cameron is speaking live right now promoting the in campaign and he is making a very reasonable case for staying in....

But the whole world has moved on since then and I'm not convinced anyone fully understand what it would mean for us to leave,,,,

But I'm open to persuasion ..... I see no point assuming I know what's best...

I am with you on this Sox as I just do not know the consequences of my vote. However being an old and aging Hippy I am and have been a member of CND for 30 years. I can remember the cold war era and the remarks of a famous general who said we fought world war one in Europe and most or world war two in Europe and you jerks' will let us we will fight world war three in Europe. The main articles of the treaty of Rome forbids a member state from taking up arms against another member. In the last 600 years more blood has been spilt in Europe than in any other part of the globe. So if Brussels have a _iew on the shape of bananas and the MEPs fiddle their expenses my _iew its a very small list of gripes for peace in a very dangerous place to live? "

I truly believe we owe a great debt to Woodstock generation .....even though I realise many of those well intended individuals went on to become members of the very establishment they so wanted to change.......

But I also truly believe we owe the next generation a chance to live in a world where building bridges is more important than erecting walls .....

Too much segregation is rarely a catalyst for making good things happen...

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

I am one those individuals!

At 19 I wanted to change the world at 29 I changed nappys At 39 I changed wives at 49 I changed pension providers now as 59 approaches I have changed to shades of grey when at 19 everything was black and white and clear cut.

However I am a committed European and as returning officer my vote doesn't count and I am slightly conflicted as whatever Nige Farage stands for I am against!

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

well sell and buy, we are the 5th biggest econmy

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Leave.

Too many reasons as to why, I'd be here all day, but I did post a few of them in a thread yesterday. None of them have anything to do with what Cameron 'bought back'.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I can't help but think that those in 'power' who are advocating 'No' are not doing so on the basis that an exit will be better for the average person. Cynically i'm expecting an exit, should it happen to be fillowed by a wholesale watering down of rights and citizen protections, deeper cuts to public services and further surender of the country's (real) sovereigty to vested interest. On that basis i'd vite yes, to stay in the EU.

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By *FuckWellMan
over a year ago

Coventry

Yes.

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By *FuckWellMan
over a year ago

Coventry

"Yes. "

UK is stronger with stronger Europe. This is the closest market.

If we ignore all politics and focus on normal people and daily lives. When we are outside EU you no longer have benefits of being part of EU. Which might mean higher taxes when you go abroad, e.g. holidays... Would you like that? Or you prefer sunny UK?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Can we say don't know !

I won't decide until nearer to the vote. I need more facts.

Sarah

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

"Can we say don't know !

I won't decide until nearer to the vote. I need more facts.

Sarah "

Sarah ................ok!

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By *dinMan
over a year ago

Birmingham

I'm a no!

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

The current vote is an even 50 - 50

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By *verysmileMan
over a year ago

Canterbury

Staying in will give us some trade benefits (especially in the financial sector) but at the cost of some political control. Leaving may cost us some trade but will liberate some political control from the EU.

Regardless of what may or may not have been agreed in the past few weeks, a "gentleman's agreement" based on immediately topical factors such as migration should not be the basis of deciding which way to vote. What may seem important now is not what will carry us over the next few decades. What we really have to decide is whether staying in will be a long term benefit to the UK and whether the EU can react to future changes of circumstance that effect the UK without another threat of an In/Out referendum.

Personally, while I am inclined to vote to stay, I am wary that the EU seems to reflect Eurovision in that while the great and the good have previously had the largest influence, as time goes by, policy will be set by groups of eastern European farmers singing about crop yields and their grandparents.

Perhaps I am suffering from a form of EU Stockholm syndrome?

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By *atcoupleCouple
over a year ago

Suffolk - East Anglia

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Can we say don't know !

I won't decide until nearer to the vote. I need more facts.

Sarah

Sarah ................ok!"

Thanks

we've got 4 months to go yet..... Plenty of time to decide.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I'm an undecided ....

But David Cameron is speaking live right now promoting the in campaign and he is making a very reasonable case for staying in....

As yet I've still to hear anyone from the out campaigns offer such a plausibly persuasive analysis of reasons to leave,,, "
.

...... You know that scene from men in black where they get you to look at the light!...

Come this way, gather round and look in this draw!

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Having been fairly annoyed that we havent been given this referendum sooner as i was itching to vote to leave , Only yesterday did i find myself re thinking , leaving in my opinion should be an opportunity to deal with various issues around immigration and entitlement to national health and state benefits , taking a short term loss on trade as the cost however i dont believe this will be done effectively . so the short term costs come with no benefits ,, so after years of itching to vote out i have lost so much faith in our politicians i would stay in just so they couldnt screw up an opportunity

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

"Having been fairly annoyed that we havent been given this referendum sooner as i was itching to vote to leave , Only yesterday did i find myself re thinking , leaving in my opinion should be an opportunity to deal with various issues around immigration and entitlement to national health and state benefits , taking a short term loss on trade as the cost however i dont believe this will be done effectively . so the short term costs come with no benefits ,, so after years of itching to vote out i have lost so much faith in our politicians i would stay in just so they couldnt screw up an opportunity "
I have recorded a yes (stay in ) vote?

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By *enard ArgenteMan
over a year ago

London and France

Yes ( stay in).

Beyond disaster to leave. The U.K. Is already FUBAR; it will just disintegrate totally if it leaves.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Yes.

UK is stronger with stronger Europe. This is the closest market.

I hate to point this out but...

These mass holidays are gonna have to stop in the coming decades anyhow.... You know that 30% cut in C02 ain't gonna just mean turning your heating down 2 degrees and turning your lights off don't you?

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By *illwill69uMan
over a year ago

moston

It seems to me that the majority of what is being said about the EU is either total bullshit or a distortion of the truth.

No matter what caMoron says he has gained nothing permanent (everything can be reversed by another government or EU Treaty).

Fact is being inside the EU comes at a cost. We cede some national sovereignty, and some control of our borders to the EU. In return for these losses we get to have a say (and in some cases a veto) in all EU decisions and we get a share of EU investments.

All questions about contributions to the EU budget are an irrelevance. We pay for access to EU markets. If we decide to leave and want to keep the industry that uses the UK as a manufacturing/assembly and distribution base for EU operations we will still have to make the same contributions to the EU (we just wont get any of it back) and be bound by the same EU regulations. Just like Norway and Switzerland (its the cost of access to the EU markets).

The question is are we better off in or out? It is as simple as that!

I believe we are better off in the EU. The EU is a safeguard against the worst excesses of our politicians and is a force for moderation in the UK. However against that I do accept that there is a growing argument that we need full control of our borders in order to protect our national security, as without secure borders everything else is meaningless.

At present I will vote to stay in but I am open to being persuaded to vote out.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I'm an undecided ....

But David Cameron is speaking live right now promoting the in campaign and he is making a very reasonable case for staying in....

As yet I've still to hear anyone from the out campaigns offer such a plausibly persuasive analysis of reasons to leave,,, .

...... You know that scene from men in black where they get you to look at the light!...

Come this way, gather round and look in this draw!

It wouldn't work on me ......

I only stare at mirrors....

Obviously.....

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By *verysmileMan
over a year ago

Canterbury

Unfortunately,as we seem to be agreed that we cannot trust our politicians, we will probably vote for what each of us perceives as the least unacceptable ...whether we trust our domestic politicians more or less than the Europeans perhaps?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I'm an undecided ....

But David Cameron is speaking live right now promoting the in campaign and he is making a very reasonable case for staying in....

As yet I've still to hear anyone from the out campaigns offer such a plausibly persuasive analysis of reasons to leave,,, .

...... You know that scene from men in black where they get you to look at the light!...

Come this way, gather round and look in this draw!

It wouldn't work on me ......

I only stare at mirrors....

Obviously.....

"
.

Who's a pretty boy

...

Come on leave the cage and fly towards freedom..

We have nothing to fear but fear itself..

Plus there's this draw

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By *ELLONS AND CREAMWoman
over a year ago

stourbridge area

Weve all suffered in one way or another since entering the EU ... but as more countries have enterred its become more corrupt and back handers going on .

Britain isnt Great anymore we are a laughing stock ...

Im sure as usual we will be lied to by our government yet again ...but if its done properly and honestly ....perhaps we can get a grip again as a country ....

I personally think we should come out .... but im worried the current government has so many fingers in so many pies .. they are setting us up for a fall ... the rich will get richer ..

And the poor will get poorer .... as usual ....

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I'm an undecided ....

But David Cameron is speaking live right now promoting the in campaign and he is making a very reasonable case for staying in....

As yet I've still to hear anyone from the out campaigns offer such a plausibly persuasive analysis of reasons to leave,,, .

...... You know that scene from men in black where they get you to look at the light!...

Come this way, gather round and look in this draw!

It wouldn't work on me ......

I only stare at mirrors....

Obviously.....

Who's a pretty boy

...

Come on leave the cage and fly towards freedom..

We have nothing to fear but fear itself..

Plus there's this draw

You've obviously never encountered the tribe of long tailed smoking monkeys who hide under my bed dressed in red waistcoats and Moroccan style hats who sit there waiting to chop off any overhanging limb with their ultra sharp scimitar swords......

So don't try and lecture me about fear.... tuh,,,,

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Weve all suffered in one way or another since entering the EU ... but as more countries have enterred its become more corrupt and back handers going on .

Britain isnt Great anymore we are a laughing stock ...

Im sure as usual we will be lied to by our government yet again ...but if its done properly and honestly ....perhaps we can get a grip again as a country ....

I personally think we should come out .... but im worried the current government has so many fingers in so many pies .. they are setting us up for a fall ... the rich will get richer ..

And the poor will get poorer .... as usual ....

"
.

The EU is as bent as the UK gov maybe even more!.

There not going to stop corruption, I mean look at Italy or France?.

I'm not sure there is a solution to that problem to be honest... Well there is but it's not pretty!

If your unsure,I'd stick with the EU if I were you!

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I'm an undecided ....

But David Cameron is speaking live right now promoting the in campaign and he is making a very reasonable case for staying in....

As yet I've still to hear anyone from the out campaigns offer such a plausibly persuasive analysis of reasons to leave,,, .

...... You know that scene from men in black where they get you to look at the light!...

Come this way, gather round and look in this draw!

It wouldn't work on me ......

I only stare at mirrors....

Obviously.....

Who's a pretty boy

...

Come on leave the cage and fly towards freedom..

We have nothing to fear but fear itself..

Plus there's this draw

So don't try and lecture me about fear.... tuh,,,,

"
.

Have you got ruby red high heels on today then?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

It tickles me that the people who tend to be shouting the loudest about the British govenrment not being able to do what it needs to in the best interests of the country, or the courts not being able to make the right decisions are the exact same people who are usually complaining bitterly about that same government and same courts when they are taking decisions which are unaffected by Europe. A lot of the complainers about Europe are the habitual complainers about all our institutions, which is why I don't give much credence to their _iews.

I haven't heard a convincing verdict from the leave camp on how things will actually, tangibly be better - beyond airy nonsense about reclaiming the Great in GB.

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

Rubes

Ever thought of going into politics?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I'm an undecided ....

But David Cameron is speaking live right now promoting the in campaign and he is making a very reasonable case for staying in....

As yet I've still to hear anyone from the out campaigns offer such a plausibly persuasive analysis of reasons to leave,,, .

...... You know that scene from men in black where they get you to look at the light!...

Come this way, gather round and look in this draw!

It wouldn't work on me ......

I only stare at mirrors....

Obviously.....

Who's a pretty boy

...

Come on leave the cage and fly towards freedom..

We have nothing to fear but fear itself..

Plus there's this draw

So don't try and lecture me about fear.... tuh,,,,

Have you got ruby red high heels on today then?"

Don't be silly........ ruby red shoes with my colour eyes....... sheeesh......

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By *nleashedCrakenMan
over a year ago

Widnes

It's a YES from me.

All the alternatives put forward by the out campaign are either unrealistic or worse than what we have now.

I could be convinced to change my mind but nothing has come close so far

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By *nleashedCrakenMan
over a year ago

Widnes

"Rubes

Ever thought of going into politics?"

Rubes is always right. End of.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Rubes

Ever thought of going into politics?"

Judging by the number of times I've ended up on the naughty step on these forums, I think I lack the requisite level of tact and diplomacy.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

As neither a British citizen nor someone who will even be able to vote...

I say stay in the EU. It makes the most sense from my, non-British, point if _iew.

-Courtney

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Politics throws up its share of strange bedfellows, but a line up of frauds, charlatans and preening peacocks such as Galloway, Farage, Gove and Johnson illustrates pretty effectively on which side the forces of darkness are arrayed in this case

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By *hortieWoman
over a year ago

Northampton

No/Out

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By * pool 1Couple
over a year ago

Liverpool

Mr No

Mrs undecided.

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By *ikeC81Man
over a year ago

harrow

In but with some laws changed - I will have to postal vote as I am in Europe lol

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By *omaMan
over a year ago

Glasgow

Out of Europe for me. .

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By *nleashedCrakenMan
over a year ago

Widnes

I have some dead relatives from Northern Ireland so can I vote for them as well?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

well sell and buy, we are the 5th biggest econmy"

Yes but it's not a normal distribution! The two largest economies are the same size as the bottom 168 combined. We have no leverage to negotiate favourable terms with americans or chinese.

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By *entaur_UKMan
over a year ago

Cannock

I'll be voting Leave as the options on the ballot paper will be Leave or Remain. But the way the Op worded it Leave means No on this thread. Studies have shown a yes/no question can be swayed in the direction of yes as it appears more positive, so the results of this thread could be skewed by that ( just saying).

Anyhow my reason for voting to leave the EU is a matter of Britain's democracy, freedom and sovereignty. As Tony Benn said back in the 1970's, when he campaigned to leave, if you cannot elect or remove the people that govern you then you don't live in a real democracy. No one elects the EU commission (they are all appointed) and there is no mechanism in place for the people of Europe to remove them). Tony Benn was a true man of conviction and principle (unlike the current shower we have now) who remained consistent on his position towards the EU all through his political career. The arguments he made for leaving then are still relevant today. The EU is undemocratic and it is eroding our sovereignty by stealth. You can all argue about economics until the cows come home, but you CANNOT put a price on democracy, freedom and sovereignty!

The EU is a failure on an epic scale, on the euro, the euro zone and now the migrant crisis. It is an analogue union in a now digital age, it is past its sell by date and not fit for purpose in the modern world. We must vote to leave the EU to free ourselves from the shackles, and open ourselves up to the rest of the world!

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By *anejohnkent6263Couple
over a year ago

canterbury

deffo out....but who counts the votes ??????/

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"The EU is undemocratic and it is eroding our sovereignty by stealth. You can all argue about economics until the cows come home, but you CANNOT put a price on democracy, freedom and sovereignty!

Of course you can put a price on it! It's exactly proportional to the decrease in wealth we will experience by leaving!!!

I agree, it's undemocratic bla bla bla yes it is, no contest your honour. Personally I don't give a crap. We've got shit politicians here and they've got shit politicians in Brussels. Why should I care which group of monkeys make policies or what glorious intentions they have?

I think Wiley said it best when he sang that: "All I really want is money in my pocket. Cash in my hand and skrilla in my wallet, yeah. Skrilla in my wallet" - which is why I'll be voting to stay in.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"deffo out....but who counts the votes ??????/"

As previously discussed - me! And a load of other perfectly responsible people all around the country who will be under an immense amount of scrutiny and security.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I'm an undecided ....

But David Cameron is speaking live right now promoting the in campaign and he is making a very reasonable case for staying in....

As yet I've still to hear anyone from the out campaigns offer such a plausibly persuasive analysis of reasons to leave,,, .

...... You know that scene from men in black where they get you to look at the light!...

Come this way, gather round and look in this draw!

It wouldn't work on me ......

I only stare at mirrors....

Obviously.....

Who's a pretty boy

...

Come on leave the cage and fly towards freedom..

We have nothing to fear but fear itself..

Plus there's this draw

So don't try and lecture me about fear.... tuh,,,,

Have you got ruby red high heels on today then?

Don't be silly........ ruby red shoes with my colour eyes....... sheeesh......

"
.

Oh long tailed smoking moneys in vests... I thought you said flying monkeys in vests!!.. Like as in fly my beauty's fly

I'm such a Muppet

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By *entaur_UKMan
over a year ago

Cannock

"Politics throws up its share of strange bedfellows, but a line up of frauds, charlatans and preening peacocks such as Galloway, Farage, Gove and Johnson illustrates pretty effectively on which side the forces of darkness are arrayed in this case

Do you include the socialist and Labour MP for the last 28 years Kate Hoey in the list, what about the great man of the left the late Tony Benn who wanted Britain out of the EU his whole life, what about John Mills who is one of the biggest donors to the LABOUR party. They are all on the side of Leave! This is not a matter of left and right, it's a matter of right and wrong. If you want to stay in the EU then you are on the wrong side of the argument.

It's a bit rich of you to talk about the forces of darkness when you have Cameron, Osborne, Teresa May (and a good number of the cabinet), the anti British, terrorist lover Jeremy Corbyn and all the SNP on your side!

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

What were the names of the Labour guys who wanted to leave NATO and ally with the Soviet Union back in the day? You missed them... that would have been a good choice

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By *hetalkingstoveMan
over a year ago

London

It's really scary how we might leave the EU because so many people apparently think we can just conjure amazing trade deals from nowhere, with people who aren't going to be very impressed with us for leaving. The U.S. isn't, for starters.

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By *hetalkingstoveMan
over a year ago

London

Do you include the socialist and Labour MP for the last 28 years Kate Hoey in the list"

Kate Hoey is pro guns and all sorts of weird things.

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By *entaur_UKMan
over a year ago

Cannock

"The EU is undemocratic and it is eroding our sovereignty by stealth. You can all argue about economics until the cows come home, but you CANNOT put a price on democracy, freedom and sovereignty!

Of course you can put a price on it! It's exactly proportional to the decrease in wealth we will experience by leaving!!!

I think Wiley said it best when he sang that: "All I really want is money in my pocket. Cash in my hand and skrilla in my wallet, yeah. Skrilla in my wallet" - which is why I'll be voting to stay in. "

I don't accept your economic arguments! We could just as easily flourish and be a lot more wealthy and better off outside of the EU trading with the commonwealth and the rest of the world. We'll be saving £50 million a day in EU membership fees from day one!

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By *hetalkingstoveMan
over a year ago

London

EU 'undemocratic' ... we live in a country with the unelected House of Lords and a voting system that means we have a government that only 36% of people actually wanted.

The EU should be the least of our worries when it comes to democracy.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

well sell and buy, we are the 5th biggest econmy

Yes but it's not a normal distribution! The two largest economies are the same size as the bottom 168 combined. We have no leverage to negotiate favourable terms with americans or chinese. "

This is kind of where I look at it from. As an American, it all seems bit silly to me. Sovereignty is a real argument for the UK - if you stay in the EU you relinquish a bit of sovereignty. But regarding economics and trade? It's kinda funny because the UK doesn't play in the same ball park as the US and Chinese without the EU...

And like it or not, part of the reason the US likes the UK is because it's our strongest ally in the EU...

-Courtney

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By *piritsonfabCouple
over a year ago

Nottingham

"I can't help but think that those in 'power' who are advocating 'No' are not doing so on the basis that an exit will be better for the average person. Cynically i'm expecting an exit, should it happen to be fillowed by a wholesale watering down of rights and citizen protections, deeper cuts to public services and further surender of the country's (real) sovereigty to vested interest. On that basis i'd vite yes, to stay in the EU. "

That's absolutely how I see it. Getting out SEEMS like a good idea, but only if you trust politicians to do their best for all the people in this country, not just the rich ones. And I don't

So... sadly. . It's a yes stay in for me at the moment.

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By *verysmileMan
over a year ago

Canterbury

Wherever people stand on the issue of trade, the largest imports come from places like Germany. They will not want to compromise their cash flows from UK tangible trade.

IMHO the tangible trade argument doesn't really hold up. The financial sector is another matter.............

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By *avingabreakMan
over a year ago

Near the Border

No. lets take the opportunity to get out instead of pouring more money after bad.

Still makes me sick that all those yrs ago we paid to have food mountains and farmers not to grow crops...barking mad.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

well sell and buy, we are the 5th biggest econmy

Yes but it's not a normal distribution! The two largest economies are the same size as the bottom 168 combined. We have no leverage to negotiate favourable terms with americans or chinese.

And like it or not, part of the reason the US likes the UK is because it's our strongest ally in the EU...

-Courtney "
.

Stop being sensible and come and look in this draw!.... You'll like it, honestly

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By *r and mrs sanddancerCouple
over a year ago

BOLDON COLLIERY

"I'm an undecided ....

But David Cameron is speaking live right now promoting the in campaign and he is making a very reasonable case for staying in....

But the whole world has moved on since then and I'm not convinced anyone fully understand what it would mean for us to leave,,,,

But I'm open to persuasion ..... I see no point assuming I know what's best...

Germany tried to rule europe twice by force and we went to war to stop them, lots of brave men gave their lives so we could remain a sovereign nation .

Now we are ruled by unelected bureaucrats in Brussels, we can not set our own laws any more, they try to tell us what to do at every turn.

This is not what the people voted for when we joined the Common market.

so this is a vote to get the hell out

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By *educedWoman
over a year ago

Birmingham

I don't understand the wider implications of either scenario.

I just want to make sure that if we go we go for the right reasons. If I'm honest the rubbish and misinformation spouted about the migrant crisis and greater border control as reasons for leaving are actually persuading me that staying is the correct thing to do.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

A firm 'yes' from me.

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By *abphilMan
over a year ago

sheffield

No no no no

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Out/no here.

Reasons why have already been covered in the thread.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I don't think in or out will make the slightest difference to the average UK resident, but for the hell of it, I'll probably vote out.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I'm an undecided ....

But David Cameron is speaking live right now promoting the in campaign and he is making a very reasonable case for staying in....

But the whole world has moved on since then and I'm not convinced anyone fully understand what it would mean for us to leave,,,,

But I'm open to persuasion ..... I see no point assuming I know what's best...

Germany tried to rule europe twice by force and we went to war to stop them, lots of brave men gave their lives so we could remain a sovereign nation .

Now we are ruled by unelected bureaucrats in Brussels, we can not set our own laws any more, they try to tell us what to do at every turn.

This is not what the people voted for when we joined the Common market.

so this is a vote to get the hell out

And one of the reasons for the whole European project in the first place was so that those divisions would never happen again. If we're bringing the war into it (seriously? We're going there? It's 2016!) then it's a far more powerful argument for remaining in the EU than for trying to rip it apart. Those brave men would rather not have had to go to war in the first place. It shows them infinitely more respect to keep Europe together than to spout forth that sort of nonsense.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

yes, let's stay at the party

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"The EU is undemocratic and it is eroding our sovereignty by stealth. You can all argue about economics until the cows come home, but you CANNOT put a price on democracy, freedom and sovereignty!

Of course you can put a price on it! It's exactly proportional to the decrease in wealth we will experience by leaving!!!

I think Wiley said it best when he sang that: "All I really want is money in my pocket. Cash in my hand and skrilla in my wallet, yeah. Skrilla in my wallet" - which is why I'll be voting to stay in.

So you think taxes will go down the day after we leave? I'm sure our government will manage to waste £50m a day elsewhere, it is what they specialise in.

On what basis can you negotiate better trade deals with America or China if what you are fundamentally negotiating is access to a market that is 6 times smaller than their home one?

Here's how it goes:

China: "we want these trade terms and a blow job... now"

Little Britain: "if you don't negotiate you can't access our market"

China: "if you don't suck my dick you can't access our market and our market is 6 times bigger than yours"

Little Britain: "fine but don't cum in my mouth"

Sorry but what's the magic combination of words that makes a stronger party bend to the will of a weaker one?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"yes, let's stay at the party"

Let's make the party better, it has serious problems the 'no' campaign are right to point out. But taking our ball and going home isn't the answer because that just has a new set of problems.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I don't think in or out will make the slightest difference to the average UK resident, but for the hell of it, I'll probably vote out."
.

Yeah there's that bit of rebellion in me too!..

Is this the M.P.L.A or

Is this the U.D.A or

Is this the I.R.A

I thought it was the UK

Or just another country

Another council tenancy

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

It's a no from me

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

well sell and buy, we are the 5th biggest econmy

Yes but it's not a normal distribution! The two largest economies are the same size as the bottom 168 combined. We have no leverage to negotiate favourable terms with americans or chinese.

And like it or not, part of the reason the US likes the UK is because it's our strongest ally in the EU...

-Courtney "

This with bells on it, it seems like the no voters still thing we've got an empire and are the heart of the industrial revolution - get out a bit more. Non-european countries are largely indifferent to Britain.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

NO/OUT

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By *nleashedCrakenMan
over a year ago

Widnes

"The EU is undemocratic and it is eroding our sovereignty by stealth. You can all argue about economics until the cows come home, but you CANNOT put a price on democracy, freedom and sovereignty!

Of course you can put a price on it! It's exactly proportional to the decrease in wealth we will experience by leaving!!!

I think Wiley said it best when he sang that: "All I really want is money in my pocket. Cash in my hand and skrilla in my wallet, yeah. Skrilla in my wallet" - which is why I'll be voting to stay in.

But we trade with the rest of the world and the Commonwealth now. How is that going to get any better out of the EU. I asked you once before, and you never really answered then, so I'll ask you again;

Which countries that we are not currently already trading with while part of the EU are we going to suddenly start trading with once we're out?

If we leave the EU the only viable option for trading with the rest of Europe on a similar bases to what we do now is through EFTA (European Free Trade Association) which would put us in a similar position to Norway and Switzerland, both of which pay in more to the EU budget than we do, have less control of their borders than we do and absolutely no say over the rules they have to enforce. We may get a deal a little better than then, we may get a deal a little worse than then but it will definitely be pretty similar. And even if it's as good, or slightly better then either of them, it's not as good as the deal we have now. IF we're not going to be part of EFTA then trade between the UK and the EU/EEA/EFTA is simply not going to be anything like the same as we now have. SO what are the BREXIT people suggesting as the alternative?

Finally all current regulations that are enforced to meet EU rules will still be in force until each individual one of them is repealed by a separate act of parliament because they were enacted via acts of parliament. SO even if we leave and don't join EFTA we'll still have to enforce3 all the rules anyway as they are actually UK statute.

We won't pay less and could end up paying more; we won't have any more control of our borders and could end up with less; we won't have any say over the rules we'll have to enforce in order to trade with the EU. Tell me how any of that is better then what we have now?

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

Polls close at 5pm

The exit polls shows one section well ahead

Results at 5.01pm

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By *entaur_UKMan
over a year ago

Cannock

"I'm an undecided ....

But David Cameron is speaking live right now promoting the in campaign and he is making a very reasonable case for staying in....

But the whole world has moved on since then and I'm not convinced anyone fully understand what it would mean for us to leave,,,,

But I'm open to persuasion ..... I see no point assuming I know what's best...

Germany tried to rule europe twice by force and we went to war to stop them, lots of brave men gave their lives so we could remain a sovereign nation .

Now we are ruled by unelected bureaucrats in Brussels, we can not set our own laws any more, they try to tell us what to do at every turn.

This is not what the people voted for when we joined the Common market.

so this is a vote to get the hell out

Ruby, those divisions are resurfacing again all over Europe TODAY precisely because of the very existence of the EU. You've got neo nazis on the rise in greece, riots on the streets in European cities ( in Germany and greece) for a number of reasons, The front National on the rise in france, all over Europe you have anti EU parties gaining more support and more popularity and more and more votes with each passing election. Divisions are being stoked, tensions are rising because of EU policies, The EU is making the prosepect of conflict in Europe more likely not less. This is what you get when you take away people's democracy, freedom and sovereignty and try to impose an unwanted Union on people against their will. In regard to keeping the Peace in Europe the EU is failing, just like the Euro is failing.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I'm an undecided ....

But David Cameron is speaking live right now promoting the in campaign and he is making a very reasonable case for staying in....

But the whole world has moved on since then and I'm not convinced anyone fully understand what it would mean for us to leave,,,,

But I'm open to persuasion ..... I see no point assuming I know what's best...

Germany tried to rule europe twice by force and we went to war to stop them, lots of brave men gave their lives so we could remain a sovereign nation .

Now we are ruled by unelected bureaucrats in Brussels, we can not set our own laws any more, they try to tell us what to do at every turn.

This is not what the people voted for when we joined the Common market.

so this is a vote to get the hell out

More abstract or emotional drivel. SHOW ME THE MONEY

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

[Removed by poster at 23/02/16 16:52:39]

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

No/out/leave... Whatever takes us to a state of being an independent self governing democracy outside of the EUrgh! We are mature enough as a democracy to stand on our own two feet without the nannying hyperbeurocratic EU presiding over us.

Dave makes me laugh when he asks "what would we look like outside of the EU"? The answer is that we would look like any of the other successful seld governing democracies that exist outside of the EU, such as Canada, Australia, New Zealand, U.S. Etc. etc.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I'm an undecided ....

But David Cameron is speaking live right now promoting the in campaign and he is making a very reasonable case for staying in....

But the whole world has moved on since then and I'm not convinced anyone fully understand what it would mean for us to leave,,,,

But I'm open to persuasion ..... I see no point assuming I know what's best...

Germany tried to rule europe twice by force and we went to war to stop them, lots of brave men gave their lives so we could remain a sovereign nation .

Now we are ruled by unelected bureaucrats in Brussels, we can not set our own laws any more, they try to tell us what to do at every turn.

This is not what the people voted for when we joined the Common market.

so this is a vote to get the hell out

Tell that to the people in the Ukraine who desperately wanted to be closer to Europe as protection against a resurgent Russia.

The tensions and divisions you speak of are NOT stoked by EU policies themselves, they're stoked by politicians and groups seizing the opportunity to use events to their advantage.

You think Britain will somehow be outside any impact of the refugee crisis if it leaves Europe? Will it shite. Don't be so naive.

All the language about having sovereignty taken away, and "this is what happens when you take away people's rights" is total fluff. How many people actually turn out to vote in European elections? If everyone is so desperate to exercise their democratic rights, why aren't they voting in droves to at least exercise what influence they do have?

No; it's the politics of fear and envy masquerading as being about democracy and freedom. Fear of immigration - some founded and some unfounded. Envy that we seem to be paying in more than we get out and others are getting "freebies".

But leaving won't solve the issues with immigration, and will most likely cost our economy more.

The sooner everyone stops pretending they give a shit about freedom and democracy the better, then the real questions they care about can be debated.

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

Centaur

Your _iew is not supported by the facts. The rise of extremist groups is checked by the fact that we have (for the most part) moderate EU governments who are signed to the establishing articles of the Treaty of Rome and that is a non aggression policy. Step out side that and those with extreme _iews can monopolise a state and take control without any checks or balancing _iews. The last example was 1930s Germany where a tiny minority undemocratically gained power. The world has changed to a point that Europe needs to be united and strong. We (the UK) should stand with fellow Europeans to better the standard of living for all member citizens. I rarely agree with the Pontiff but his walls and bridges analogy was spot on.

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By *entaur_UKMan
over a year ago

Cannock

"The EU is undemocratic and it is eroding our sovereignty by stealth. You can all argue about economics until the cows come home, but you CANNOT put a price on democracy, freedom and sovereignty!

Of course you can put a price on it! It's exactly proportional to the decrease in wealth we will experience by leaving!!!

I think Wiley said it best when he sang that: "All I really want is money in my pocket. Cash in my hand and skrilla in my wallet, yeah. Skrilla in my wallet" - which is why I'll be voting to stay in.

Which countries that we are not currently already trading with while part of the EU are we going to suddenly start trading with once we're out?

Have a read of this link, article written by Conservative MEP Daniel Hannan it covers everything you asked about....

www.spectator.co.uk/2016/01/what-brexit-would-look-like-for-britain

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Papal walls around the Vatican 25 feet high and guarded by soldiers!

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By *entaur_UKMan
over a year ago

Cannock

"I'm an undecided ....

But David Cameron is speaking live right now promoting the in campaign and he is making a very reasonable case for staying in....

But the whole world has moved on since then and I'm not convinced anyone fully understand what it would mean for us to leave,,,,

But I'm open to persuasion ..... I see no point assuming I know what's best...

Germany tried to rule europe twice by force and we went to war to stop them, lots of brave men gave their lives so we could remain a sovereign nation .

Now we are ruled by unelected bureaucrats in Brussels, we can not set our own laws any more, they try to tell us what to do at every turn.

This is not what the people voted for when we joined the Common market.

so this is a vote to get the hell out

More abstract or emotional drivel. SHOW ME THE MONEY"

Try watching the news now and again.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

NO/OUT for us.

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

"No/out/leave... Whatever takes us to a state of being an independent self governing democracy outside of the EUrgh! We are mature enough as a democracy to stand on our own two feet without the nannying hyperbeurocratic EU presiding over us.

So this sceptred Isle is a democracy? Tell me again how the house of lords works? No I will tell you we a have a second chamber of unelected so called ennobled freeloaders that can vote down the wishes of the democratically elected commons. Is it democracy when Lord Lucan can pass his title to his son so he can now claim £325 attendance allowance? Give up!

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

It's a yes from me but I'm interested to see the real reason Boris has done a u-turn. Surely leaving the EU runs the risk of damaging London business?!

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

"Papal walls around the Vatican 25 feet high and guarded by soldiers!"
I did say I rarely agreed with the chap and it was a comparison!

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By *bbitMan
over a year ago

Watford

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By *mstillere2Man
over a year ago

middleport

I am very leftwing activist but im undecided on this part of me wants to stay where as I can see the pros of getting out too. I think one problem is what ever we as a country decide will if some get their way be a final decision so we have to get it right for future genrations.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

The myth that the EU keeps the peace needs to be fully exposed. During the Balkins crisis the EU stood by paralysed by indecision while murderers committed genocide, it took the UN and GB + US intervention to start to bring about a resolution. Equally now in the midst of the ISIS crisis again the EU is paralysed by inaction beyond handwringing about schengen and a Europe without borders creating a terrorist superhighway through the middle of the continent!

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By *illwill69uMan
over a year ago

moston

"I'll be voting Leave as the options on the ballot paper will be Leave or Remain. But the way the Op worded it Leave means No on this thread. Studies have shown a yes/no question can be swayed in the direction of yes as it appears more positive, so the results of this thread could be skewed by that ( just saying).

Your whole argument is false. If we accept that we do not have any say in electing those who run the EU on our behalf then we have to accept that we have no say in who runs our country in our name.

Fact is our government like every other country in the EU appoint 1 member of the commission with the 28th being elected by the European parliament. Also like it or not our government is not elected by us, it is selected by the person the queen asks to form a government. So if we accept your false premise that the EU is unelected then so is our government.

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By *illwill69uMan
over a year ago

moston

" We'll be saving £50 million a day in EU membership fees from day one!"

Another fallacy, we pay £55 million a day to have access to the EU markets. We will still have to pay that fee if we wish to have unfettered access to these markets after leaving the EU (just as Norway and Switzerland pay for access to those markets).

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By *entaur_UKMan
over a year ago

Cannock

"I'm an undecided ....

But David Cameron is speaking live right now promoting the in campaign and he is making a very reasonable case for staying in....

But the whole world has moved on since then and I'm not convinced anyone fully understand what it would mean for us to leave,,,,

But I'm open to persuasion ..... I see no point assuming I know what's best...

Germany tried to rule europe twice by force and we went to war to stop them, lots of brave men gave their lives so we could remain a sovereign nation .

Now we are ruled by unelected bureaucrats in Brussels, we can not set our own laws any more, they try to tell us what to do at every turn.

This is not what the people voted for when we joined the Common market.

so this is a vote to get the hell out

Tell that to the people in the Ukraine who desperately wanted to be closer to Europe as protection against a resurgent Russia.

The tensions and divisions you speak of are NOT stoked by EU policies themselves, they're stoked by politicians and groups seizing the opportunity to use events to their advantage.

You think Britain will somehow be outside any impact of the refugee crisis if it leaves Europe? Will it shite. Don't be so naive.

But leaving won't solve the issues with immigration, and will most likely cost our economy more.

The sooner everyone stops pretending they give a shit about freedom and democracy the better, then the real questions they care about can be debated. "

What did the EU do to support Ukraine or show solidarity with them when Putin annexed Crimea?????

All the EU did was impose a few paltry economic sanctions on Russia and stop a few Russian millionaires flying to Europe. Putin must be laughing his socks off!

And to talk about the politics of Fear , what did Cameron call his referendum campaign to keep Scotland in the UK.....well he called it "Project Fear". He is deploying the same tactics now to keep the UK in the EU.

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

The poll has closed

Given that the exercise turned into a debate for the most part which is excellent but makes the counting a tad difficult so here is the result from the FAB poll on the question of whether the United Kingdom should remain as a signatory to the Treaty of Rome as enacted by the then Prime Minister Mr Ted Heath is..................

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Who elected David Cameron to parliament? The people of his Oxford constituency is the answer. Who elected Donald Tusk and Charles Schulz? The difference is the constituents can elect someone to represent them in Oxford in 2020 (or earlier!). We the constituents can not elect a replacement for Tusk or Schulz!

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Martin Schulz even!

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

The ayes to right (yes) 41.38%

The Naes to The left 58.62%

The Naes have it if FAB followers are a representation of the UK we would leave the EU

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"The ayes to right (yes) 41.38%

The Naes to The left 58.62%

The Naes have it if FAB followers are a representation of the UK we would leave the EU"

If fab followers are a representation of the UK, I think there are bigger problems than whether or not the UK leaves the EU

-Courtney

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

"The ayes to right (yes) 41.38%

The Naes to The left 58.62%

The Naes have it if FAB followers are a representation of the UK we would leave the EU

If fab followers are a representation of the UK, I think there are bigger problems than whether or not the UK leaves the EU

-Courtney "
I thought that but being a gentleman I did want to say!

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By *entaur_UKMan
over a year ago

Cannock

Your whole argument is false. If we accept that we do not have any say in electing those who run the EU on our behalf then we have to accept that we have no say in who runs our country in our name.

You really should go on Youtube and listen to some Tony Benn speeches about this. We elect all our MP's and after 5 years if we don't like them we can get rid of them by voting for someone else! You can't do that with the EU council and the commission!

The house of Lords is by and large just a talking shop. How many times has it actually over-ruled the House of Commons?

Besides there are now increasing calls to reform the House of Lords from many MP's!

We have seen perfectly demonstrated by David Cameron's pitiful renegotiation how the EU is OPPOSED to reforming itself, so it will NOT change.

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By *illwill69uMan
over a year ago

moston

"What did the EU do to support Ukraine or show solidarity with them when Putin annexed Crimea?????

All the EU did was impose a few paltry economic sanctions on Russia and stop a few Russian millionaires flying to Europe. Putin must be laughing his socks off!

Funnily enough the EU were not a signatory to the Budapest Memorandum on Security Assurances. However we and the USA were, and I seem to remember our Prime Minister saying that we would not be taking any military action or doing anything that would endanger peace.

So please explain to me exactly what your point is?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I'm an undecided ....

But David Cameron is speaking live right now promoting the in campaign and he is making a very reasonable case for staying in....

But the whole world has moved on since then and I'm not convinced anyone fully understand what it would mean for us to leave,,,,

But I'm open to persuasion ..... I see no point assuming I know what's best...

Germany tried to rule europe twice by force and we went to war to stop them, lots of brave men gave their lives so we could remain a sovereign nation .

Now we are ruled by unelected bureaucrats in Brussels, we can not set our own laws any more, they try to tell us what to do at every turn.

This is not what the people voted for when we joined the Common market.

so this is a vote to get the hell out

Tell that to the people in the Ukraine who desperately wanted to be closer to Europe as protection against a resurgent Russia.

The tensions and divisions you speak of are NOT stoked by EU policies themselves, they're stoked by politicians and groups seizing the opportunity to use events to their advantage.

You think Britain will somehow be outside any impact of the refugee crisis if it leaves Europe? Will it shite. Don't be so naive.

But leaving won't solve the issues with immigration, and will most likely cost our economy more.

The sooner everyone stops pretending they give a shit about freedom and democracy the better, then the real questions they care about can be debated.

What did the EU do to support Ukraine or show solidarity with them when Putin annexed Crimea?????

All the EU did was impose a few paltry economic sanctions on Russia and stop a few Russian millionaires flying to Europe. Putin must be laughing his socks off!

Well not only is he laughing his socks off but Russian business is booming thanks to all the new liquidity that flowed out of European banks back to Russian ones!... Oh yeah that really told him off

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I love this democracy where Cameron is moving boundaries to strengthen Tories seats!! Yeah power to the people

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

What did the EU do to support Ukraine or show solidarity with them when Putin annexed Crimea?????

All the EU did was impose a few paltry economic sanctions on Russia and stop a few Russian millionaires flying to Europe. Putin must be laughing his socks off!

The EU didn't do enough to support Ukraine, in my _iew, but what exactly would an "independent" Britain have done? Sweet FA. And despite the apparent inaction of the EU, the modernising forces within Ukraine still want to be part of it because they understand that being part of a larger group can help against a big aggressor.

If "fear" is asking reasonable questions about what a Britain that's told the EU to fuck off can do in terms of trade etc. then yes, they're playing on "fear". To me though, that's not fearmongering, that's just sensible. After all, if it was so foolish for Scotland to contemplate jumping into the unknown when it was their referendum, why doesn't the same apply for Britain on an even larger scale?

No, the fear and doom-mongering is coming from the leave camp. You've just done it yourself a few posts above. It's the leave camp who are foretelling rivers of blood and fire and brimstone and Europe tearing itself apart from within, and Armageddon if turkey accedes.

If the choice is reasonable skepticism vs outright scare tactics, I know which I'm going for.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"The ayes to right (yes) 41.38%

The Naes to The left 58.62%

The Naes have it if FAB followers are a representation of the UK we would leave the EU

If fab followers are a representation of the UK, I think there are bigger problems than whether or not the UK leaves the EU

-Courtney

I thought that but being a gentleman I did want to say!"

I wasn't enough of a lady not to say that right at the beginning. God help us.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"The ayes to right (yes) 41.38%

The Naes to The left 58.62%

The Naes have it if FAB followers are a representation of the UK we would leave the EU

If fab followers are a representation of the UK, I think there are bigger problems than whether or not the UK leaves the EU

-Courtney

I thought that but being a gentleman I did want to say!

I wasn't enough of a lady not to say that right at the beginning. God help us.

Sorry, didn't see you had written that above. I concur in any case

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Is the vote over!!

Who won?

Don't tell me ... Let me guess..

Was it the meek

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By *nleashedCrakenMan
over a year ago

Widnes

"The EU is undemocratic and it is eroding our sovereignty by stealth. You can all argue about economics until the cows come home, but you CANNOT put a price on democracy, freedom and sovereignty!

Of course you can put a price on it! It's exactly proportional to the decrease in wealth we will experience by leaving!!!

I think Wiley said it best when he sang that: "All I really want is money in my pocket. Cash in my hand and skrilla in my wallet, yeah. Skrilla in my wallet" - which is why I'll be voting to stay in.

Which countries that we are not currently already trading with while part of the EU are we going to suddenly start trading with once we're out?

Have a read of this link, article written by Conservative MEP Daniel Hannan it covers everything you asked about....

www.spectator.co.uk/2016/01/what-brexit-would-look-like-for-britain"

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

"Is the vote over!!

Who won?

Don't tell me ... Let me guess..

Was it the meek

"
They will inherit the earth we in the UK will inherit a land governed by the likes of Boris Johnson, Nigel Farage and the Douglas geezer with the odd shaped mouth. Suddenly a house in Spain appeals!!

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By *nleashedCrakenMan
over a year ago

Widnes

"Is the vote over!!

Who won?

Don't tell me ... Let me guess..

Was it the meek

They will inherit the earth we in the UK will inherit a land governed by the likes of Boris Johnson, Nigel Farage and the Douglas geezer with the odd shaped mouth. Suddenly a house in Spain appeals!! "

If they'll still let you in!!

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

"Is the vote over!!

Who won?

Don't tell me ... Let me guess..

Was it the meek

They will inherit the earth we in the UK will inherit a land governed by the likes of Boris Johnson, Nigel Farage and the Douglas geezer with the odd shaped mouth. Suddenly a house in Spain appeals!!

If they'll still let you in!!"
Good point will a UK less EU make me apply for a visa for my two week in Magaluf at the Hotel Britannia where A pint of Boddingtons and a full English is E4.99

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Is the vote over!!

Who won?

Don't tell me ... Let me guess..

Was it the meek

Get out now!.

Better safe than sorry

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Is the vote over!!

Who won?

Don't tell me ... Let me guess..

Was it the meek

They will inherit the earth we in the UK will inherit a land governed by the likes of Boris Johnson, Nigel Farage and the Douglas geezer with the odd shaped mouth. Suddenly a house in Spain appeals!!

If they'll still let you in!!"
.

Well they won't let you in if you've got fuck all... But if you've got a few grand your in..

Beggars can't be choosers and there definitely beggars

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

"The EU is undemocratic and it is eroding our sovereignty by stealth. You can all argue about economics until the cows come home, but you CANNOT put a price on democracy, freedom and sovereignty!

Of course you can put a price on it! It's exactly proportional to the decrease in wealth we will experience by leaving!!!

I think Wiley said it best when he sang that: "All I really want is money in my pocket. Cash in my hand and skrilla in my wallet, yeah. Skrilla in my wallet" - which is why I'll be voting to stay in.

Which countries that we are not currently already trading with while part of the EU are we going to suddenly start trading with once we're out?

Have a read of this link, article written by Conservative MEP Daniel Hannan it covers everything you asked about....

www.spectator.co.uk/2016/01/what-brexit-would-look-like-for-britain

Well it doesn't really say anything new. Just the same old stuff that, because we're Britain, we'll somehow manage to get an extra ordinary deal that will be so much better than Switzerland, Norway and Iceland that we won't need to worry. My question is 'Why would they give us a deal so much better than they have offered to anyone else and how would this imaginary, never before negotiated by anyone, deal be better than what we have now?""
Very selective interpretation of the facts and I did read the article. Firstly Norway has more oil reserves than Saudi and could not give a flying crook about the EU. Secondly the correspondent forgot to say that Swiss Banks hold more gold than any other country in the world and they are very good at keeping quiet about all sorts of things.

Bit of a naïve set of facts really.

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

"Is the vote over!!

Who won?

Don't tell me ... Let me guess..

Was it the meek

They will inherit the earth we in the UK will inherit a land governed by the likes of Boris Johnson, Nigel Farage and the Douglas geezer with the odd shaped mouth. Suddenly a house in Spain appeals!!

If they'll still let you in!!.

Well they won't let you in if you've got fuck all... But if you've got a few grand your in..

Beggars can't be choosers and there definitely beggars"
I am in then!

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By *aul_the_nudistMan
over a year ago

WREXHAM

No....

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By *iewMan
Forum Mod
over a year ago

Angus & Findhorn

if the Scottish one is to go by, it's going to be a rocky ride

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By *thwalescplCouple
over a year ago

brecon

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By *nleashedCrakenMan
over a year ago

Widnes

"Is the vote over!!

Who won?

Don't tell me ... Let me guess..

Was it the meek

They will inherit the earth we in the UK will inherit a land governed by the likes of Boris Johnson, Nigel Farage and the Douglas geezer with the odd shaped mouth. Suddenly a house in Spain appeals!!

If they'll still let you in!!Good point will a UK less EU make me apply for a visa for my two week in Magaluf at the Hotel Britannia where A pint of Boddingtons and a full English is E4.99"

I guess it depends on whether we rejoin EFTA/EEA. If we do then, except that we'll have no control at all over who enters Britain from Europe, it will make little difference to us going to Europe. If we don't join EFTA/EEA then all bets are off.

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

"No

"
South Wales is the only place that is in Credit from EU funding versus contribution!!!!!!

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By *entaur_UKMan
over a year ago

Cannock

"The ayes to right (yes) 41.38%

The Naes to The left 58.62%

The Naes have it if FAB followers are a representation of the UK we would leave the EU"

A few more Naes since you posted. That 58.62% for Leave seems to be getting bigger.

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By *nleashedCrakenMan
over a year ago

Widnes

"Is the vote over!!

Who won?

Don't tell me ... Let me guess..

Was it the meek

They will inherit the earth we in the UK will inherit a land governed by the likes of Boris Johnson, Nigel Farage and the Douglas geezer with the odd shaped mouth. Suddenly a house in Spain appeals!!

If they'll still let you in!!.

Well they won't let you in if you've got fuck all... But if you've got a few grand your in..

Beggars can't be choosers and there definitely beggars I am in then!"

Me to.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"The EU is undemocratic and it is eroding our sovereignty by stealth. You can all argue about economics until the cows come home, but you CANNOT put a price on democracy, freedom and sovereignty!

Of course you can put a price on it! It's exactly proportional to the decrease in wealth we will experience by leaving!!!

I think Wiley said it best when he sang that: "All I really want is money in my pocket. Cash in my hand and skrilla in my wallet, yeah. Skrilla in my wallet" - which is why I'll be voting to stay in.

Which countries that we are not currently already trading with while part of the EU are we going to suddenly start trading with once we're out?

Have a read of this link, article written by Conservative MEP Daniel Hannan it covers everything you asked about....

www.spectator.co.uk/2016/01/what-brexit-would-look-like-for-britain

Hannan is extremely selective in quoting his facts in that article. He starts off by telling us Norway and Switzerland are the two wealthiest countries in the world leaving you to draw the conclusion that the rest of us in the eu are wallowing in poverty. Looking at the same prosperiry indices as he uses you find that 26 of the top 50 most prosperous countries in the world are in the eu.

Hannan also tends to be extremely quiet about the relationship between Norway's prosperity and its closeness to the eu - if you read the Norwegian government's strategy you find that they are very enthusiastic about closer cooperation with the eu because they know how good being part of the EEA has been for them.

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By *ost SockMan
over a year ago

West Wales and Cardiff

"No

South Wales is the only place that is in Credit from EU funding versus contribution!!!!!!"

That's one reason I'm a "yes".

So much of the regeneration of industrial areas of Wales has come from European money. Of course, there are other important issues like immigration, security etc.

It'd be nice to hear that at least acknowledged by people slating the EU in this area.

That's not a dig at people on here. Though I'm certainly "in", I'm impressed with the level of knowledge and arguments of the "out" fabbers.

While I'm at it, it'd be nice for people in Wales to acknowledge we get more from the treasury than we pay in too. I do believe poorer areas across the UK should get more - it'd just be nice to hear some kind of thanks from us for once, instead of constant denigration of Westminster and the more affluent areas of the UK.

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

"The ayes to right (yes) 41.38%

The Naes to The left 58.62%

The Naes have it if FAB followers are a representation of the UK we would leave the EU

A few more Naes since you posted. That 58.62% for Leave seems to be getting bigger.

"
But C the people have spoken! Along with the size of various parts of human anatomy the measurement of body fluids and timewaisters (couldn't resist that !) The people have spoken!!

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

"No

South Wales is the only place that is in Credit from EU funding versus contribution!!!!!!

That's one reason I'm a "yes".

So much of the regeneration of industrial areas of Wales has come from European money. Of course, there are other important issues like immigration, security etc.

It'd be nice to hear that at least acknowledged by people slating the EU in this area.

That's not a dig at people on here. Though I'm certainly "in", I'm impressed with the level of knowledge and arguments of the "out" fabbers.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Polls close at 5pm

The exit polls shows one section well ahead

Results at 5.01pm"

Calling it an exit poll was clearly a dirty trick to bias the result.

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By *evaquitCouple
over a year ago

Catthorpe

YES from us but we're already resigned to the NO winning this.

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By *quirrelMan
over a year ago

East Manchester

Latest news from Westminster. Cameron has pushed through a rule banning the civil service from supplying information to any MP who is campaigning for Brexit. However, he has given the go-ahead for them to help in anyway possible any MP who is campaigning for the UK to stay in the EU. What's he hiding? If there is evidence that the EU is bad for Britain then we should be allowed to _iew it. After all the government is the servant of the people not it's master.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Is the vote over!!

Who won?

Don't tell me ... Let me guess..

Was it the meek

They will inherit the earth we in the UK will inherit a land governed by the likes of Boris Johnson, Nigel Farage and the Douglas geezer with the odd shaped mouth. Suddenly a house in Spain appeals!!

If they'll still let you in!!.

Well they won't let you in if you've got fuck all... But if you've got a few grand your in..

Beggars can't be choosers and there definitely beggars I am in then!

Me to.

"
.

London is full of Russians, Chinese, and yanks.

You can go anywhere in the world if you've got a Bob or two!

If your poor and got no skills then you need the EU

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

"Is the vote over!!

Who won?

Don't tell me ... Let me guess..

Was it the meek

They will inherit the earth we in the UK will inherit a land governed by the likes of Boris Johnson, Nigel Farage and the Douglas geezer with the odd shaped mouth. Suddenly a house in Spain appeals!!

If they'll still let you in!!.

Well they won't let you in if you've got fuck all... But if you've got a few grand your in..

Beggars can't be choosers and there definitely beggars I am in then!

Me to.

London is full of Russians, Chinese, and yanks.

You can go anywhere in the world if you've got a Bob or two!

If your poor and got no skills then you need the EU"
I am neither poor nor skill less. Your point is?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"YES from us but we're already resigned to the NO winning this. "
.

Yes your in our no your for staying, it's all too complicated

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Is the vote over!!

Who won?

Don't tell me ... Let me guess..

Was it the meek

They will inherit the earth we in the UK will inherit a land governed by the likes of Boris Johnson, Nigel Farage and the Douglas geezer with the odd shaped mouth. Suddenly a house in Spain appeals!!

If they'll still let you in!!.

Well they won't let you in if you've got fuck all... But if you've got a few grand your in..

Beggars can't be choosers and there definitely beggars I am in then!

Me to.

London is full of Russians, Chinese, and yanks.

You can go anywhere in the world if you've got a Bob or two!

If your poor and got no skills then you need the EUI am neither poor nor skill less. Your point is?"
.

My point is you don't need the EU... You can go anywhere

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

"Latest news from Westminster. Cameron has pushed through a rule banning the civil service from supplying information to any MP who is campaigning for Brexit. However, he has given the go-ahead for them to help in anyway possible any MP who is campaigning for the UK to stay in the EU. What's he hiding? If there is evidence that the EU is bad for Britain then we should be allowed to _iew it. After all the government is the servant of the people not it's master."
Can you quote that source?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I could get into Australia tomorrow.

I don't want to as I can't stand insects, sunstroke, jellyfish, crocodiles or Australians

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

"Is the vote over!!

Who won?

Don't tell me ... Let me guess..

Was it the meek

They will inherit the earth we in the UK will inherit a land governed by the likes of Boris Johnson, Nigel Farage and the Douglas geezer with the odd shaped mouth. Suddenly a house in Spain appeals!!

If they'll still let you in!!.

Well they won't let you in if you've got fuck all... But if you've got a few grand your in..

Beggars can't be choosers and there definitely beggars I am in then!

Me to.

London is full of Russians, Chinese, and yanks.

You can go anywhere in the world if you've got a Bob or two!

If your poor and got no skills then you need the EUI am neither poor nor skill less. Your point is?.

My point is you don't need the EU... You can go anywhere"
But what of my sojourn to Magaluf and my full English Will I need a visa?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"YES from us but we're already resigned to the NO winning this. "

This.

The status quo position is always a difficult one to defend. Many people are just looking for something, anything to explain or blame for things that are wrong. In this country we have always had an uneasy relationship with Europe - based on what we get out of it, rather than a wider picture - and that, coupled with a national history which has become a burden by instilling a sense of entitlement and superiority over other people, will unfortunately bias the result. The number of otherwise sensible people I know who are planning to vote out, with nothing but a vague xenophobia to back up their reasoning, is concerning.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Latest just in from who, exactly?

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

"YES from us but we're already resigned to the NO winning this.

This.

"
The youth of the UK are thriving! Well done very good and intelligent reasoning!

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Is the vote over!!

Who won?

Don't tell me ... Let me guess..

Was it the meek

They will inherit the earth we in the UK will inherit a land governed by the likes of Boris Johnson, Nigel Farage and the Douglas geezer with the odd shaped mouth. Suddenly a house in Spain appeals!!

If they'll still let you in!!.

Well they won't let you in if you've got fuck all... But if you've got a few grand your in..

Beggars can't be choosers and there definitely beggars I am in then!

Me to.

London is full of Russians, Chinese, and yanks.

You can go anywhere in the world if you've got a Bob or two!

If your poor and got no skills then you need the EUI am neither poor nor skill less. Your point is?.

My point is you don't need the EU... You can go anywhereBut what of my sojourn to Magaluf and my full English Will I need a visa?"
.

No, people holiday all over the world, there's very few countries left that apply visa's for a two week holiday! Even the ones that do, it's like a 15 minute form on the internet

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"YES from us but we're already resigned to the NO winning this.

This.

"
.

Actually the truth is the complete opposite.... Nobody ever votes for change, ever and this one won't be any different

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By *inky-MinxWoman
over a year ago

Grantham

I'm for getting out. For practical reasons not emotional ones.

See other threads on this topic

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"YES from us but we're already resigned to the NO winning this.

This.

Actually the truth is the complete opposite.... Nobody ever votes for change, ever and this one won't be any different"

That's what I'm hoping. That only the really, really committed with vote to leave and the not sures will opt to stay. Which is as it should be, I don't think anyone should be voting for this who isn't absolutely, completely convinced it's the right thing to do.

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By *inky-MinxWoman
over a year ago

Grantham

"I don't think anyone should be voting for this who isn't absolutely, completely convinced it's the right thing to do. "

I agree with you but would add that, as it is so important, people should be finding out the details so they can make a convinced decision.

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

"I don't think anyone should be voting for this who isn't absolutely, completely convinced it's the right thing to do.

I agree with you but would add that, as it is so important, people should be finding out the details so they can make a convinced decision."
I am convinced but I am informed! I have taken the time to read about the issue.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Yes stay in (as of today).....open minded to the various debates over the coming months

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I don't think anyone should be voting for this who isn't absolutely, completely convinced it's the right thing to do.

I agree with you but would add that, as it is so important, people should be finding out the details so they can make a convinced decision.I am convinced but I am informed! I have taken the time to read about the issue."

Ditto

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By *inky-MinxWoman
over a year ago

Grantham

"I don't think anyone should be voting for this who isn't absolutely, completely convinced it's the right thing to do.

Excellent

I hope you've read real information and not hype

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"YES from us but we're already resigned to the NO winning this.

This.

Actually the truth is the complete opposite.... Nobody ever votes for change, ever and this one won't be any different

People like what they know even if they don't like it and don't like the unknown even if it promises something they like!.

It's like curries... We all have our favourites and when in a new curry house, most will stick with the usual...

Mines chicken balti

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

"I don't think anyone should be voting for this who isn't absolutely, completely convinced it's the right thing to do.

Excellent

I hope you've read real information and not hype

"
All my informed opinions are taken from the Daily Mail so yes not hype!

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By *inky-MinxWoman
over a year ago

Grantham

"People like what they know even if they don't like it and don't like the unknown even if it promises something they like!.

It's like curries... We all have our favourites and when in a new curry house, most will stick with the usual...

Mines chicken balti

You're right but the issue is that this is way more important than curry. In your analogy you should try every dish at that new restaurant, and then decide which is your favourite.

The problem is that most people do not understand what the EU actually is, how it operates, who is in charge but unelected, what its final goal is and so on.

Most people don't understand how politics works in this country either. It's a subject that affects us so much that it's crazy it's not taught in school.

I don't mean party politics, I meant the machinery behind government and the economics of this country.

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By *entaur_UKMan
over a year ago

Cannock

Latest just in from who, exactly?"

It was reported on Sky news earlier today. A couple of days in and Cameron is already trying to stack the deck in his own favour. What happened to the fair referendum he promised us???

Actually this move will play right into the hands on the Leave side. Cameron has just shot himself in the foot!

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"YES from us but we're already resigned to the NO winning this.

This.

Actually the truth is the complete opposite.... Nobody ever votes for change, ever and this one won't be any different"

I hope you are right, One certainty is that the Outs will continue to build upon their rhetoric of doom and xenophobia, which will motivate people who wouldn't normally be bothered either way to get out to the polling stations.

(closed, thread got too big)

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