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EDL

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By (user no longer on site) OP   
over a year ago

They turn up, make lots of noise then go home so whats the point?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

ok its sunday morning im not fully awake ao dont have a clue what you on about what is EDL sorry

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

edl ?????

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"edl ?????"

Phew so glad you said that thought it was only me that didnt have a clue what it is lol

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

English defence league

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

and that is??????

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

who do what??

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

google it

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

A bit one sided don't you think in what you said ?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"A bit one sided don't you think in what you said ? "

who?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

google is great thank you

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I'm confused!

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"I'm confused! "

you ain't the only one LOL

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

It's Sunday morning for heavens sake, and I have a bit of a hangover... really not the right time for confuzzlement

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Edl is te English defence league. I'm not am expert on protest groups, but they seem to be a group that is about strengthening national identity, albeit sometimes in a somewhat extremist way. Whilst they maintain they're peaceful and well intentioned, many of their rallies have been scheduled around similar events taking place with other groups.

I was going to compare them to the bnp, but actually, I don't think they are,- but I may be wrong.

Personally though, I think the way they go about their campaigns is mono subject manifests, and edging the law.

I know this makes me sound a bit like a disappointed sympathiser.- I'm not,- but I don't fully understand the situation so won't be fully critical of it. I was in Nottingham though last year,or year before when a rally was coincidentally happening,- they seemed bent on violence there though.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"A bit one sided don't you think in what you said ? "

How is it one sided? It's a protest, they wouldn't be doing it right if they didn't make some noise. Unfortunately a lot of them are ignorant dickheads that just go along for a fight.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"Edl is te English defence league. I'm not am expert on protest groups, but they seem to be a group that is about strengthening national identity, albeit sometimes in a somewhat extremist way. Whilst they maintain they're peaceful and well intentioned, many of their rallies have been scheduled around similar events taking place with other groups.

I was going to compare them to the bnp, but actually, I don't think they are,- but I may be wrong.

Personally though, I think the way they go about their campaigns is mono subject manifests, and edging the law.

I know this makes me sound a bit like a disappointed sympathiser.- I'm not,- but I don't fully understand the situation so won't be fully critical of it. I was in Nottingham though last year,or year before when a rally was coincidentally happening,- they seemed bent on violence there though. "

Same when they were in Newcastle. Never seen such a police presence and over 200 arrests.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"Edl is te English defence league. I'm not am expert on protest groups, but they seem to be a group that is about strengthening national identity, albeit sometimes in a somewhat extremist way. Whilst they maintain they're peaceful and well intentioned, many of their rallies have been scheduled around similar events taking place with other groups.

I was going to compare them to the bnp, but actually, I don't think they are,- but I may be wrong.

Personally though, I think the way they go about their campaigns is mono subject manifests, and edging the law.

I know this makes me sound a bit like a disappointed sympathiser.- I'm not,- but I don't fully understand the situation so won't be fully critical of it. I was in Nottingham though last year,or year before when a rally was coincidentally happening,- they seemed bent on violence there though. "

Oh I got EDL, it was some of the other posts that confused me!

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By *etitesaraTV/TS
over a year ago

rochdale


"Edl is te English defence league. I'm not am expert on protest groups, but they seem to be a group that is about strengthening national identity, albeit sometimes in a somewhat extremist way. Whilst they maintain they're peaceful and well intentioned, many of their rallies have been scheduled around similar events taking place with other groups.

I was going to compare them to the bnp, but actually, I don't think they are,- but I may be wrong.

Personally though, I think the way they go about their campaigns is mono subject manifests, and edging the law.

I know this makes me sound a bit like a disappointed sympathiser.- I'm not,- but I don't fully understand the situation so won't be fully critical of it. I was in Nottingham though last year,or year before when a rally was coincidentally happening,- they seemed bent on violence there though. "

I rather suspect they are quietly affiliated to the BNP in order to give the football hooligan-type element a platform away from the BNP, thereby allowing the BNP to promote themselves as a 'legitimate' political party.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"A bit one sided don't you think in what you said ?

who?"

OP not you

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"

Oh I got EDL, it was some of the other posts that confused me!

"

I get confuzzled all the time

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

are right thanks for the info mmmmmmmm, some ppl are bad some ppl are good doesnt matter on your race..faith ..ect!

we are all human,and should try and get along.as for the tits who just wana fight and mouth off without really trying to understand other ppls point of view then..there day will come when they stand b4 the man!!

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"It's Sunday morning for heavens sake, and I have a bit of a hangover... really not the right time for confuzzlement "

Awww bless

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"are right thanks for the info mmmmmmmm, some ppl are bad some ppl are good doesnt matter on your race..faith ..ect!

we are all human,and should try and get along.as for the tits who just wana fight and mouth off without really trying to understand other ppls point of view then..there day will come when they stand b4 the man!!

"

i feel a song coming on

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

While they do have a football hooligan elements I'm sure that many other organisations. There existence started after a group of extremist Muslims abused and heckled British troops on a Luton home coming parade which even to football hooligans was an outrages thing to do!

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

sing it baby after 3 ...cum by yar me lord

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By (user no longer on site) OP   
over a year ago


"A bit one sided don't you think in what you said ? "

How?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"While they do have a football hooligan elements I'm sure that many other organisations. There existence started after a group of extremist Muslims abused and heckled British troops on a Luton home coming parade which even to football hooligans was an outrages thing to do! "

So now they go to towns and cities and heckle asians and blacks..seems to have gone full circle!

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

As David Cameron has said just this week, we have moved to a time where a white person can hold certain views abd be labelled a racist but a non-white person can hold similar views and we are too scared to hold him to account for it.

The EDL took up that vacuum when they saw British troops being called scum and baby-killers whilst parading through a British town on their return from a war zone in which British soldiers have lost their lives.

Whether you feel the war on terror is right or wrong it doesn't condone this despicable act against soldiers who do their duty and leave the politicians to sort out the reasons why.

I support the EDL in what it's trying to do but let's not be niave about the very carefully orchestrated dialogue of misinformation put out by the establishment to discredit EDL members.

However, I do NOT support the forced repatriation/expulsion of foreigners who come here, work hard, and contribute to our society.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

troops get shit no matter what they do, it comes with the job! they are just a tool for the gov to use!

yes its tottally wrong for them to be spat at and called names.. but hey the irish been doing that for many years! do the edl have the same veiws on them too???

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

[Removed by poster at 06/02/11 10:55:22]

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I have no idea as I do not know the EDL's full manifesto. Looking at some of the photographs from Saturday's march you can see just how much feeling there is right across England about the EDL - Essex Branch, Exeter Branch, Milton Keynes Branch. The photos show normal men & women who are campaigning to be called 'English' without being tarred as a racist.

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By (user no longer on site) OP   
over a year ago

EDL oppose extreme islam so whats being racist got to do with it?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I was confused over the opening thread I must admit. I thought someone had turned up at one of the socials and caused trouble

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"ok its sunday morning im not fully awake ao dont have a clue what you on about what is EDL sorry "

English Defence Leauge

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

They don't represent the majority of English people.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

i don't understand it all so hard to comment on the EDL and what they stand for but my believe is this

EVERYONE should be proud of who they are and where they are from and able to fly their own flag shout on their own team and enjoy their cultural heritage but if they have chosen to live in another country be proud also of the country they have chosen and do their best to embrace the ways of that country too and i also mean if we as english choose to another country we should do the same

i personally like multi culturism (is that a word i've no idea) i like learning about others and think it enriches my life to know more about other cultures i am of an inquisitive mind and like to learn about new and varying things and have been lucky over the years to of known many people of various cultures that have been willing to answer any questions i have and teach me things i never knew and in turn they have been just as willing to learn about my ways as an english woman and have embraced life here in this beautifull country of ours, i am very proud to be english and love the fact that they felt comfortable enough to admit being proud of the country they hailed from

i feel that if minds were more open and embracing then lots would not feel the need to act so defensively about their culture, thoughts and beliefs

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"EDL oppose extreme islam so whats being racist got to do with it?"

I'm saying that the media/establishment infer that the EDL has racism at it's core. This allows the govt to attack the movement under the umbrella placing the EDL alongside muslim extremists as opposing sides of the same coin. If the govt don't discredit organisations like the EDL it will see a fringe oragnisation move into a central position within British politics and will be forced to listen to what the EDL have to say - which may well fly in the face of the govt's own policies.

The fact that the EDL has gained so much ground in such a short space of time should tell you that their message is getting through and many English people are feeling as isolated from their own culture as those young muslims that Cameron was talking about just a few days ago.

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By *abioMan
over a year ago

Newcastle and Gateshead


"Edl is te English defence league. I'm not am expert on protest groups, but they seem to be a group that is about strengthening national identity, albeit sometimes in a somewhat extremist way. Whilst they maintain they're peaceful and well intentioned, many of their rallies have been scheduled around similar events taking place with other groups.

I was going to compare them to the bnp, but actually, I don't think they are,- but I may be wrong.

Personally though, I think the way they go about their campaigns is mono subject manifests, and edging the law.

I know this makes me sound a bit like a disappointed sympathiser.- I'm not,- but I don't fully understand the situation so won't be fully critical of it. I was in Nottingham though last year,or year before when a rally was coincidentally happening,- they seemed bent on violence there though.

Same when they were in Newcastle. Never seen such a police presence and over 200 arrests."

glad you mentioned the newcastle demo, was just outside up office and I only see a police presence like that outside my office for tyne and wear derbies!!.. also because it was just outside a well known "irish" pub they basically locked everyone in for 2 hrs.....

but yes i did hear some choice language aimed at certain people at that demo, when i went passed they did shut up... maybe its because i had my "you even dare" face on.......

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By *etitesaraTV/TS
over a year ago

rochdale

But Fabio, the EDL aren't a racist organisation - we've been told this!

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By *abioMan
over a year ago

Newcastle and Gateshead


"But Fabio, the EDL aren't a racist organisation - we've been told this! "

that may be there assertion... however what I heard "on the ground" and the songs/chants there were shouting aimed at other people would tell you otherwise.....

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By *etitesaraTV/TS
over a year ago

rochdale


"But Fabio, the EDL aren't a racist organisation - we've been told this!

that may be there assertion... however what I heard "on the ground" and the songs/chants there were shouting aimed at other people would tell you otherwise....."

Exactly.

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By *aughtyNurse999Woman
over a year ago

Fabville !!!

Had them in my local town last year .. they caused havoc and big trouble.. whats the point and what do they gain..

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By *ornwall-maleMan
over a year ago

newquay

i know what LOL stands for!

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

i may be being naieve , but the group has sprung up form a complete lack of faith in the government or police and there ability to tackle extremism. if you are white and suggested the koran was blasphemous and that all muslims should die , you would quite rightly be arrested and hopefully put in prison , howver if your a muslim cleric it is ok to stand in the street and spout hatred and call me a baby killer , hence why this organisation arose , unfortunately as with any organisation , people with there own agenda attach themselves to it , ie the out and out racists , and violent bigots, i am a serving soldier who has been to both belfast , iraq and afghan .

i dont care what colour , creed , religion or political views my mates have , i just want to know they will be there for me as i will be for them .

if the army which is totaly multi racial can get along fine maybe society should take a look at how we do things they may learn some lessons

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"

The EDL took up that vacuum when they saw British troops being called scum and baby-killers whilst parading through a British town on their return from a war zone in which British soldiers have lost their lives.

"

Equally those troops operate in Afghanistan, a country who invaded no other country and yet still gets the hell knocked out of it. If we're talking about despicable acts, then invading a foreign country and shooting civilians ranks pretty high up there.

Some perspective on the death figures:

To date, 352 soldiers have died since the start of hostilities in 2001.

In 2009, 1500 civilians died in the first six months alone. The figures on Wikipedia make for sober reading.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civilian_casualties_of_the_War_in_Afghanistan_(2001%E2%80%93present)#Aggregation_of_estimates

I don't ever buy the line that soldiers doing their duty demand respect at all times. Many would argue that soldiers in Ireland were doing their duty on Bloody Sunday. The sadness is that the military get the focus of so much anger when it is the politicians themselves who should be spat at for their insidious lies.

The problem with the EDL is that the leaders are individually as stupid as the politicians and the extremists.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"i may be being naieve , but the group has sprung up form a complete lack of faith in the government or police and there ability to tackle extremism. "

You're not naive. The EDL themselves don't clearly explain what they want. They touch on the working class struggle, the religious aspect, the terrorist aspect, but nothing hangs together. They're right in saying that the ruling political class are cowards for not addressing the many issues around race and religion in this country (and Cameron has continued that cowardice by not addressing the British people directly, instead choosing to make his speech in Germany) and that that ruling class shit all over the lower classes. If they went with that message, support would be stronger. Instead they get wound up about religion and everything falls apart. Stephen Lennon's appearance on Newsnight this week was pathetic, a case study in stringing together a few quotable elements with no total understanding of what he was trying to say.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

It's interesting that Cameron chose to speak in Germany.

Do we think he might have been trying to draw an analogy between the EDL and the Nazis?

Both extremely right wing, prone to violence and determined to blame one particular religion for all the world's ills?

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By *ensualfire88Man
over a year ago

Edinburgh

The EDL are racist morons who are pretending not to be racists.

In much the same way as Nick Griffin and the BNP claim not to be racists.

Cunts, the lot of them.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"It's interesting that Cameron chose to speak in Germany.

Do we think he might have been trying to draw an analogy between the EDL and the Nazis?

Both extremely right wing, prone to violence and determined to blame one particular religion for all the world's ills?"

The EDL aren't extremely right wing. The difference between the EDL and groups like Stormfront and Combat 18 are immense. Prone to violence? Last night I believe there were a total of 7 arrests. I'd warrant you'd have more at the Cardiff-Swansea game today.

Cameron speaking in Germany is no surprise. Angela Merkel spoke about multi-culturalism last year. Sadly she didn't speak about it during the World Cup featuring the very multicultural German team. Cameron can't even have the balls to address the British people in Britain about the British identity!

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"....... Cameron can't even have the balls to address the British people in Britain about the British identity!"

Cameron's testicles are deeply embedded in Clegg's anus. He has to fill in a form if he wants them back.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"

The EDL aren't extremely right wing. "

They LOOK extremely right wing and they SOUND extremely right wing.

What is it they say about ducks?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-12374835

Love a Scottish accent lol

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"

The EDL aren't extremely right wing.

They LOOK extremely right wing and they SOUND extremely right wing.

What is it they say about ducks? "

How do they look far right to you? Swastikas? Goering outfits? High jackboots and plans to invade Poland?

..and as I said, compared to some of the seriously far-right groups, the EDL are pussies. If they were extremely right wing, perhaps preaching anti-homosexual sentiment at their demonstrations, then you'd have a lot more to use to potentially arrest EDL members. If you compare what the EDL preach to some of the shit coming out of the truly far right movements, you'll see the difference. This isn't me defending the EDL. They are tiresome idiots. My fear is that people really won't be able to handle a truly tough far right group coming into public prominence. Frankly much of the EDL's agenda run along similar lines to political parties recognised and accepted as legitimate within the EU.

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By *amschwingerzCouple
over a year ago

West

They are a protest against the extremes of Islam...their biggest problem is that they have let a load of skinhead BNP swell their ranks...the rent a row brigade..'have brick will travel' and soppy teenage 'lads' who just want to turn up to goad the ol bill..they probably dont even know why they are there apart from that....not good for the image and until they sort that out no on will take them seriously.

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By *ex.IncCouple
over a year ago

Castleford

The UAF are far worse than the EDL. They will protest about anything.

I saw the march over in lancs on tv and there were only 20 odd arrests on the EDL side compared to 70+ for the UAF who claim they are peaceful but were actually the 'hooligans'. Usually ends up that way as well at every march where UAF and EDL is concerned.

EDL spent most of the afternoon in the pub, went to demonstrate at their agreed time (even though UAF were there long before) did what they had to do and came home relatively quietly. Only a minority ruined it for the EDL side. BNP members often wade in as well but they are limited in numbers.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"........ BNP members often wade in as well but they are limited in numbers."

And even more limited in intellect.

You're wrong about the UAF but I doubt you'll be told.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"They turn up, make lots of noise then go home so whats the point?"

they made me late for a meet once when they was in dudley

i wasnt happy lol

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"Edl is te English defence league. I'm not am expert on protest groups, but they seem to be a group that is about strengthening national identity, albeit sometimes in a somewhat extremist way. Whilst they maintain they're peaceful and well intentioned, many of their rallies have been scheduled around similar events taking place with other groups.

I was going to compare them to the bnp, but actually, I don't think they are,- but I may be wrong.

Personally though, I think the way they go about their campaigns is mono subject manifests, and edging the law.

I know this makes me sound a bit like a disappointed sympathiser.- I'm not,- but I don't fully understand the situation so won't be fully critical of it. I was in Nottingham though last year,or year before when a rally was coincidentally happening,- they seemed bent on violence there though.

Same when they were in Newcastle. Never seen such a police presence and over 200 arrests.

glad you mentioned the newcastle demo, was just outside up office and I only see a police presence like that outside my office for tyne and wear derbies!!.. also because it was just outside a well known "irish" pub they basically locked everyone in for 2 hrs.....

but yes i did hear some choice language aimed at certain people at that demo, when i went passed they did shut up... maybe its because i had my "you even dare" face on......."

We were out attempting to get a brunch. Some of them used the n-word on my mate. If it weren't for the police i wouldve cracked them on.

Their policies are deliberately vague because their only policy is racism.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

And your view does

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By *ex.IncCouple
over a year ago

Castleford


"You're wrong about the UAF but I doubt you'll be told.

"

I wont get into that argument with you on a public forum for fear of offending people. Same as i wont wade in on politics or religion threads as they are purely flame bait. Infact, i cant believe i rose to this one.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"It's interesting that Cameron chose to speak in Germany.

Do we think he might have been trying to draw an analogy between the EDL and the Nazis?

Both extremely right wing, prone to violence and determined to blame one particular religion for all the world's ills?"

He was speaking in Germany cos that's where the fookin meeting was taking place.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"The EDL are racist morons who are pretending not to be racists.

In much the same way as Nick Griffin and the BNP claim not to be racists.

Cunts, the lot of them.

"

..and the SNP are?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"The EDL are racist morons who are pretending not to be racists.

In much the same way as Nick Griffin and the BNP claim not to be racists.

Cunts, the lot of them.

..and the SNP are? "

Tories in kilts. They're the folks who brought Thatcher into power and we should never allow them or the electorate to forget it.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

careless underlings nerds teabags see?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"and Cameron has continued that cowardice by not addressing the British people directly"

..you mean he wasn't on British soil when he made that speech huh?

..or should he have been at the dispatch box hammering it out with Red-Ed jumping in at every chance to say, "No, I am not my brother!" - strange thing for a commie wanker to say.

The fact that he made the speech should not deflect from where he made it - it had to be said. For too long we have had to put up with pc-bollocks gone mad when it comes to saying, "I'm British, where are my rights!" only to be called a racist for doing so.

That's Brownism - the most insidious spineless wanker we've ever had the stupidity to elect PM. But I'm glad we did as I now know that for the rest of my life I will never vote Labour again.

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By *emima_puddlefuckCouple
over a year ago

hexham

EDL, bunch of twunts without the brains god gave an amoeba.

But then given swingers tend to be rightwing and reactionary no doubt popular in these parts.

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By *ertnbeckyCouple
over a year ago

oldham

EDL, bunch of twunts without the brains god gave an amoeba

i agree but also the brainwashed extemist idiots with bombs in a backpack are a lot worse.then you get ahmed hook hand on a street corner in my country telling us we are trash and hoping we will die soon whilst claimng all the benefits going.

all i wish is that people learn to get along and that we are put on a level playing field regardless of colour or creed.

thank you enjoy life

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


" that we are put on a level playing field regardless"

That should be applicable to ALL things: but you know it's NEVER going to happen!

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"

..you mean he wasn't on British soil when he made that speech huh?

..or should he have been at the dispatch box hammering it out with Red-Ed jumping in at every chance to say, "No, I am not my brother!" - strange thing for a commie wanker to say.

The fact that he made the speech should not deflect from where he made it - it had to be said. For too long we have had to put up with pc-bollocks gone mad when it comes to saying, "I'm British, where are my rights!" only to be called a racist for doing so.

That's Brownism - the most insidious spineless wanker we've ever had the stupidity to elect PM. But I'm glad we did as I now know that for the rest of my life I will never vote Labour again."

PC bollocks gone mad - throwing sub-Littlejohnisms out there is funny.

What rights have the EDL been denied?

As a non-Labour voter at any point of my life, I'm not sure why that you damn Brown and Labour as if you think it'll somehow upset me.

Yes I do think it is cowardice. It is pathetic that Cameron made the speech in another country, waffled about the British identity with the usual non-definition of what he actually means by it, and to do it on the same weekend when the EDL were mobilised for a large demonstration in the place where the EDL really began. I've been wanting a senior political figure to make such a speech for a long time, to actively debate the issue. When it happens, it's the usual Cameron delivery of nothing of any real substance, the same as it was during the election campaign, the same as it has been ever since he got into office. He isn't alone in this. All three parties are dormant. Seeing how Vince Cable, so boisterous prior to election, has now been squashed into the turf like a golf tee.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"EDL, bunch of twunts without the brains god gave an amoeba

i agree but also the brainwashed extemist idiots with bombs in a backpack are a lot worse.then you get ahmed hook hand on a street corner in my country telling us we are trash and hoping we will die soon whilst claimng all the benefits going.

all i wish is that people learn to get along and that we are put on a level playing field regardless of colour or creed.

thank you enjoy life "

It works with other religions too. Take Fred Phelps in America. Now there's a guy with a lengthy history of hatred and harassment without a Koran ever appearing in his hand.

I totally agree with your comment about the level playing field

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"They don't represent the majority of English people."

and neither does our government!!!

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"

............ All three parties are dormant. ...............

"

In fairness, the labour Party isn't dormant. We're just watching the other two main parties tear themselves, and each other, apart.

The cracks started to appear at the party conferences last Autumn. They got deeper at the recent by-election and will come to a head when the Fib Dems are anihilated at the elections in May.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"

In fairness, the labour Party isn't dormant. We're just watching the other two main parties tear themselves, and each other, apart.

The cracks started to appear at the party conferences last Autumn. They got deeper at the recent by-election and will come to a head when the Fib Dems are anihilated at the elections in May."

And what exactly would make people vote for Labour? Your leader is not a man of charisma. Already you've lost a Shadow Chancellor and replaced him with a man who went right along with the Brown financial plan. Where's the exciting change within Labour coming from? Yvette Cooper is hardly the type to get the political pulse rate ticking.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Charisma? the Tories and the Fib Dems went for charisma and what did they get?

Two liars who have continually broken manifesto promise after manifesto promise and are now guilloting a measure through the Upper House which will gerrymander constituency boundaries in their favour while passing legislation to make it nigh on impossible to call a general election till May 2015.

You can kid all of the people some of the time and you can kid some of the people all of the time but you can't kid all of the people all of the time.

Why are Fib Dems deserting their party in droves and joining Labour? They see straight through the deceit their leader has brought to the country.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"Why are Fib Dems deserting their party in droves and joining Labour? They see straight through the deceit their leader has brought to the country."

The Libs are back to their old % share of the vote - which is their grass roots support. Those so called 'deserters' were waverers anyway, who were probably Labour supporters pissed off with the wreckage Brown left the country in and wanted something different. Now they are having to swallow a tough pill they can't take and, like a child crying to mummy, off they go back to Labour.

They haven't got a chance. The Labour they knew is dead in the water and Ed the Red will drag them down to the murky depths not to resurface for a long time to come.

I'd say Clegg has done the Tories a favour because all that's going to happen in any election in the foreseeable future is a Conservative majority.

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By *atisfy janeWoman
over a year ago

Torquay


"Why are Fib Dems deserting their party in droves and joining Labour? They see straight through the deceit their leader has brought to the country.

The Libs are back to their old % share of the vote - which is their grass roots support. Those so called 'deserters' were waverers anyway, who were probably Labour supporters pissed off with the wreckage Brown left the country in and wanted something different. Now they are having to swallow a tough pill they can't take and, like a child crying to mummy, off they go back to Labour.

They haven't got a chance. The Labour they knew is dead in the water and Ed the Red will drag them down to the murky depths not to resurface for a long time to come.

I'd say Clegg has done the Tories a favour because all that's going to happen in any election in the foreseeable future is a Conservative majority. "

After Thirteen years in opposition, running an election against a Labour party that was on it's knees....with a record deficit....Iraq War....Afghanistan War....Immigration nightmare....

Yet the Tories couldn't manage a majority in 2010?

Do me a favour Wishy, if you really believe that the Tories would win a majority in the next election after the mess they have made in the last Eight months....then you are as deluded as Cameron and Osbourne.

They couldn't get a majority last year, now they have pissed off millions with their crazy policies in just a few months.....and you think they would do better next time round?

Unelectable....just like the Lib Dems

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I think if I was to put money on it Wishy, it would be a very small amount ....

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

When, not if, the Tories are routed in local and devolved administration elections in May the men in grey suits, the one's who showed the Auld Whore the door back in 1990, will begin to circle around Cameron.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"After Thirteen years in opposition, running an election against a Labour party that was on it's knees....with a record deficit....Iraq War....Afghanistan War....Immigration nightmare....

Yet the Tories couldn't manage a majority in 2010?

Do me a favour Wishy, if you really believe that the Tories would win a majority in the next election after the mess they have made in the last Eight months....then you are as deluded as Cameron and Osbourne.

They couldn't get a majority last year, now they have pissed off millions with their crazy policies in just a few months.....and you think they would do better next time round?

Unelectable....just like the Lib Dems

"

The public may well be pissed off with the policies of Cameron & Co but they're not totally stupid as to allow Labour back in. Sure Cameron has made more u-turns than a shit that just won't flush in just 8 months but sooner or later he's going to have to realise that he has to mean what he says, and say what he means, and get tough. When that happens he'll make a formidable PM, and the electorate will see that what's best for this country is NOT a Labour govt.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"After Thirteen years in opposition, running an election against a Labour party that was on it's knees....with a record deficit....Iraq War....Afghanistan War....Immigration nightmare....

Yet the Tories couldn't manage a majority in 2010?

Do me a favour Wishy, if you really believe that the Tories would win a majority in the next election after the mess they have made in the last Eight months....then you are as deluded as Cameron and Osbourne.

They couldn't get a majority last year, now they have pissed off millions with their crazy policies in just a few months.....and you think they would do better next time round?

Unelectable....just like the Lib Dems

The public may well be pissed off with the policies of Cameron & Co but they're not totally stupid as to allow Labour back in. Sure Cameron has made more u-turns than a shit that just won't flush in just 8 months but sooner or later he's going to have to realise that he has to mean what he says, and say what he means, and get tough. When that happens he'll make a formidable PM, and the electorate will see that what's best for this country is NOT a Labour govt."

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"

The public may well be pissed off with the policies of Cameron & Co but they're not totally stupid as to allow Labour back in. Sure Cameron has made more u-turns than a shit that just won't flush in just 8 months but sooner or later he's going to have to realise that he has to mean what he says, and say what he means, and get tough. When that happens he'll make a formidable PM, and the electorate will see that what's best for this country is NOT a Labour govt."

A number of people voted Tory last May becuase they believed the Tories couldn't possibly be worse than Labour.

9 months or so later they've realised the Tories not only COULD be worse but they actually ARE many times worse than could possibly be imagined.

I await the result of the local and devolved elections.

He's never going to make a formidable PM. He'll be lucky if he gets a footnote in Vince Cable's autobiography when he gets around to writing it. That'll be after he's replaced Clegg* as leader of the Lib Dems sometime later this year.

* anyone who's seen Clegg in the flesh this year knows he's finished. He's exhausted and looking worse and worse every day. Some say he shares Charlie Kennedy's weakness.

PS I like the comparison between Cameron and a jobby.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

It yet remains to be seen whether Cameron will secure his place in history as a leader who took us out of some of the darkest days in living memory, or one who led us further into the mire.

I believe he has what it takes but that he still hasn't found his feet as PM, and he's bloody well got to - fast.

This country was an economic shambles when Lady T took over but she turned it around with some very unpopular measures. She knew that the medicine we needed was the one that tasted the worst, and she forced us to swallow it. Without her at the healm in the 80s we'd have been royally fucked long long before now and who knows that damage Labour would have wreaked in all thowe years. Thank god Lady T was there to stop them.

..and I guess I'm not a floating voter anymore - True Blue all the way for me from now on.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


" ...........

..and I guess I'm not a floating voter anymore - True Blue all the way for me from now on. "

Ian Mearns took 12549 votes out of 20712 last May. I don't suppose he'll mind which way you vote or float - or even if you get stuck in the u bend

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"........but that he still hasn't found his feet as PM,"

Found his feet? He couldn't find his arse with both hands even if George Osborne was holding the torch and Nick Clegg, no stranger to Cameron's posterior, was giving him directions.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

hahahaha....

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By *atisfy janeWoman
over a year ago

Torquay


"It yet remains to be seen whether Cameron will secure his place in history as a leader who took us out of some of the darkest days in living memory, or one who led us further into the mire.

I believe he has what it takes but that he still hasn't found his feet as PM, and he's bloody well got to - fast.

This country was an economic shambles when Lady T took over but she turned it around with some very unpopular measures. She knew that the medicine we needed was the one that tasted the worst, and she forced us to swallow it. Without her at the healm in the 80s we'd have been royally fucked long long before now and who knows that damage Labour would have wreaked in all thowe years. Thank god Lady T was there to stop them.

..and I guess I'm not a floating voter anymore - True Blue all the way for me from now on. "

Until Tory policies start to have a profound effect on you and yours.....then you will revert to being a floating voter Wishy.

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By (user no longer on site) OP   
over a year ago

So how does this all link back to the EDL?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"It yet remains to be seen whether Cameron will secure his place in history as a leader who took us out of some of the darkest days in living memory, or one who led us further into the mire.

I believe he has what it takes but that he still hasn't found his feet as PM, and he's bloody well got to - fast.

This country was an economic shambles when Lady T took over but she turned it around with some very unpopular measures. She knew that the medicine we needed was the one that tasted the worst, and she forced us to swallow it. Without her at the healm in the 80s we'd have been royally fucked long long before now and who knows that damage Labour would have wreaked in all thowe years. Thank god Lady T was there to stop them.

..and I guess I'm not a floating voter anymore - True Blue all the way for me from now on.

Until Tory policies start to have a profound effect on you and yours.....then you will revert to being a floating voter Wishy."

We have not felt the full effects of the last goverments policies yet more to come your totally biased satisfy which clouds your judgement leading you to talk I'll be nice and say , drivel !

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

DHL, fuckers keep knocking on my door when I'm asleep! Government should do something about them!

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"It yet remains to be seen whether Cameron will secure his place in history as a leader who took us out of some of the darkest days in living memory, or one who led us further into the mire.

I believe he has what it takes but that he still hasn't found his feet as PM, and he's bloody well got to - fast.

This country was an economic shambles when Lady T took over but she turned it around with some very unpopular measures. She knew that the medicine we needed was the one that tasted the worst, and she forced us to swallow it. Without her at the healm in the 80s we'd have been royally fucked long long before now and who knows that damage Labour would have wreaked in all thowe years. Thank god Lady T was there to stop them.

..and I guess I'm not a floating voter anymore - True Blue all the way for me from now on. "

Lady T did her share of good things, she also did her share of bad. She deregulated the banks and lending, her policies and her friend Reagan during the same period put us on the path to the mess we are all currently in. It is against Tory doctrine to regulate. I'm not saying labour got it right, but it's very easy to look back with tinted glasses and create myths.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"

Until Tory policies start to have a profound effect on you and yours.....then you will revert to being a floating voter Wishy.

We have not felt the full effects of the last goverments policies yet more to come your totally biased satisfy which clouds your judgement leading you to talk I'll be nice and say , drivel !"

The last govts policies or the banking crisis? Which one is the key problem that led to the credit crunch and eventually to the current need for cuts?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"..........

Lady T did her share of good things,................ "

It'd be interesting to see a list. It should take long.

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By *almh5Couple
over a year ago

Manchester

I was actually at the demo and yes it was lovely and peaceful with the EDL pulling lots less numbers than they said and the anti's pulling more than them. Although peaceful the EDL's chants and things were more than vaguely unpleasant.

The EDL are never going to be seen as anything more than a thuggish street movement unless they clean up their act. Get rid of the racist and religious hatred chanting, kick out the members who post the above on their facebook pages, stop turning up at demo's completely d*unk, oh and stop fighting each other like the Boltob Division and West Mids lot did in the services on the way back!

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"Until Tory policies start to have a profound effect on you and yours.....then you will revert to being a floating voter Wishy."

With a daughter going to Uni in 5 years time I guess Tory policy already had affected me as I have to increase my investments to cover the £9k/year tuition fees - I'd planned for £3k plus her living costs and now I'll have to find another £18k.

I've never subscribed to free further education anyway as too much is wasted on people who think Uni will be a great crack and drop out after two years cos they're too fookin thick to complete a degree.

I wasn't a wage earner in Thatcher's Britain so I don't remember the full affects of her policies as my parents do, but I remember all too well the disastrous Labour govt and with hand on heart I can say they scare the fucking crap out of me and will NEVER get my vote again.

As for the Squibs - nah, they're finished.

Only leaves one credible alternative and even if they fuck it up I've more in common with Tory values than any other party so Im a Blue. Always.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"Until Tory policies start to have a profound effect on you and yours.....then you will revert to being a floating voter Wishy.

With a daughter going to Uni in 5 years time I guess Tory policy already had affected me as I have to increase my investments to cover the £9k/year tuition fees - I'd planned for £3k plus her living costs and now I'll have to find another £18k.

I've never subscribed to free further education anyway as too much is wasted on people who think Uni will be a great crack and drop out after two years cos they're too fookin thick to complete a degree.

I wasn't a wage earner in Thatcher's Britain so I don't remember the full affects of her policies as my parents do, but I remember all too well the disastrous Labour govt and with hand on heart I can say they scare the fucking crap out of me and will NEVER get my vote again.

As for the Squibs - nah, they're finished.

Only leaves one credible alternative and even if they fuck it up I've more in common with Tory values than any other party so Im a Blue. Always."

your daughter has expressed her interest in her career choice and a university at the age of 11!

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"your daughter has expressed her interest in her career choice and a university at the age of 11!"

She's 13, and no she hasn't a clue what to do with her life yet but I've drummed it into her that if she wants the finer things in life she'll need a degree to get them.

She's top of her year in school and has been so since she started in Year 4 so she's smart enough to know that shop work isn't going to get her the nice houses, cars of foreign holidays she'll want. Oh she's going to Uni alright lol

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"...

With a daughter going to Uni in 5 years time I guess Tory policy already had affected me as I have to increase my investments to cover the £9k/year tuition fees - I'd planned for £3k plus her living costs and now I'll have to find another £18k............"

I don't think you've quite grasped the nature of the Tory led coalition plans for tuition fees. As I understand Nick Clegg's explanation (he may, of course, be lying yet again), you can't save actually save up or rearrange investments or do any of that stuff in order to pay tuition fees.

Tuition fees can only be collected after graduation via PAYE after the graduate has reached a certain income threshold.

As I say, that's how I understand it at the moment but it may well be changed at any time.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Yes I know how it is structured, and I know she won't have to pay any of it until she's earning £25k+ but who's to say that things won't change between now and then. It was Labour who introduced Uni fees in the 90s and upped the fee a few years ago so it's not illogical to see fees rising and rising and rising in the future - I just want to be prepared for any eventuality. If I find I don't have to use it to pay Uni fees she can have it as a down payment on a house.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"...

I don't think you've quite grasped the nature of the Tory led coalition plans for tuition fees."

..and do you really have to be so fucking condescending all the time.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"your daughter has expressed her interest in her career choice and a university at the age of 11!

She's 13, and no she hasn't a clue what to do with her life yet but I've drummed it into her that if she wants the finer things in life she'll need a degree to get them.

She's top of her year in school and has been so since she started in Year 4 so she's smart enough to know that shop work isn't going to get her the nice houses, cars of foreign holidays she'll want. Oh she's going to Uni alright lol "

without boasting we own our own house , we have 2 cars a van..all paid for , we holiday where we want when we want, we have a great lifestyle.

neither of us went to uni.i myself fail to see that if your going to the legnths your going to to get your daughter through university through self finance then you should be applauded for your efforts but somewhat disgruntled as your lifestyle will suffer because of tory party policy.

chances are by the time your daughter has got half way through her degree the clueless coalition will be on its arse and labour will be back in on the backs of the lies to studends from one of the parties and the clear lack of knowledge of normal people from the other.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"Yes I know how it is structured, and I know she won't have to pay any of it until she's earning £25k+ but who's to say that things won't change between now and then. It was Labour who introduced Uni fees in the 90s and upped the fee a few years ago so it's not illogical to see fees rising and rising and rising in the future - I just want to be prepared for any eventuality. If I find I don't have to use it to pay Uni fees she can have it as a down payment on a house."

we hope its the latter...

we all pay far too much in taxes as it is without having to fund education as that is why we pay exhorbitant taxes in the first place

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"...

I don't think you've quite grasped the nature of the Tory led coalition plans for tuition fees.

..and do you really have to be so fucking condescending all the time. "

I'm sorry you find the truth so unpalatable. You'll feel very at home with the Tories - strangers to the truth as they are.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"Yes I know how it is structured, and I know she won't have to pay any of it until she's earning £25k+ but who's to say that things won't change between now and then. ........"

Yet again I'll probably be accused of being condescending but you could do with getting a grip on the fact. The sum is £21,000.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"You're wrong about the UAF but I doubt you'll be told.

I wont get into that argument with you on a public forum for fear of offending people. Same as i wont wade in on politics or religion threads as they are purely flame bait. Infact, i cant believe i rose to this one.

"

Your right in what your saying tho the UAF plan there march after the EDL has planned theres and been made public so they can have theres the same day....i too saw the program your referring too and thought that yes there loud obnoxious and what there saying isn't right or the right way to say it but.... The UAF seem to be the ones who insight the trouble and then claim they the "peaceful" party ... handbags at 10 paces between the 2 groups... i propose a jelly wrestling contest to declare the winner !!!

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

[Removed by poster at 09/02/11 18:44:08]

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"your daughter has expressed her interest in her career choice and a university at the age of 11!

She's 13, and no she hasn't a clue what to do with her life yet but I've drummed it into her that if she wants the finer things in life she'll need a degree to get them.

She's top of her year in school and has been so since she started in Year 4 so she's smart enough to know that shop work isn't going to get her the nice houses, cars of foreign holidays she'll want. Oh she's going to Uni alright lol

without boasting we own our own house , we have 2 cars a van..all paid for , we holiday where we want when we want, we have a great lifestyle.

neither of us went to uni.i myself fail to see that if your going to the legnths your going to to get your daughter through university through self finance then you should be applauded for your efforts but somewhat disgruntled as your lifestyle will suffer because of tory party policy.

chances are by the time your daughter has got half way through her degree the clueless coalition will be on its arse and labour will be back in on the backs of the lies to studends from one of the parties and the clear lack of knowledge of normal people from the other."

I don't doubt what you say - Labour will tell as many lies to get back in power as the Libs and the Tories told. They all do it, and then renege on their promises once they get in Downing St., but, I can only plan for what I know now and as it stands, she'll need £9k/term for a minimum 3 years - ok, so it's a loan that she'll have to pay back - WITH INTEREST - so it's my intention to pay the damn off asap. It's no start in life to be in debt as soon as you leave education. I've been penniless before and up to my eyes in debt so I know what it feels like and none of my kids will ever experience the fear of someone knocking on the front door to take your possessions away.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"Yes I know how it is structured, and I know she won't have to pay any of it until she's earning £25k+ but who's to say that things won't change between now and then. ........

Yet again I'll probably be accused of being condescending but you could do with getting a grip on the fact. The sum is £21,000.

"

You'd blame Thatcher for just about anything a person can be blamed for, we all know that, so just do one will ya. You don't like me, I don't like you so let's just ignore each other eh?

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By *atisfy janeWoman
over a year ago

Torquay

In 1997 Labour fulfilled all but One of their pre election pledges, no government has done this before or since.

I think this government is breaking all previous records for unfulfilled manifesto pledges....ain't life grand?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"Yes I know how it is structured, and I know she won't have to pay any of it until she's earning £25k+ but who's to say that things won't change between now and then. ........

Yet again I'll probably be accused of being condescending but you could do with getting a grip on the fact. The sum is £21,000.

You'd blame Thatcher for just about anything a person can be blamed for, we all know that, so just do one will ya. You don't like me, I don't like you so let's just ignore each other eh?"

I can't imagine what makes you think I don't like you. Beyond pointing out your mistakes (there's another one coming up in my next post) I've done nothing to suggest otherwise.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"..........but, I can only plan for what I know now and as it stands, she'll need £9k/term for a minimum 3 years - ok, so it's a loan that she'll have to pay back - WITH INTEREST - so it's my intention to pay the damn off asap. ............"

1) it isn't £9,000 per term, it's £9,000 per academic year and

2) you're not allowed to pay it off when it suits you. It has to be repaid at a set %age via PAYE.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"In 1997 Labour fulfilled all but One of their pre election pledges, no government has done this before or since.

I think this government is breaking all previous records for unfulfilled manifesto pledges....ain't life grand?"

BBC News 24 will be showing Nick Clegg getting a verbal kicking from a bunch of would be students in Northern Ireland (I believe) at 7.30ish this evening.

Should be unmissable watching the lying little jobby getting his comeuppance.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

More cracks amongst the Fib Dems.

Matthew Oakeshott has stood down from his post.

Another one bites the dust!

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"..........but, I can only plan for what I know now and as it stands, she'll need £9k/term for a minimum 3 years - ok, so it's a loan that she'll have to pay back - WITH INTEREST - so it's my intention to pay the damn off asap. ............

1) it isn't £9,000 per term, it's £9,000 per academic year and

2) you're not allowed to pay it off when it suits you. It has to be repaid at a set %age via PAYE."

re point 2 i think you shall find that you CAN pay back earlier through the voluntary repayment scheme........i quote from direct.gov.uk website

"If you took out a student loan in or after 1998, and want to repay it more quickly, you can make voluntary repayments.

These will be made in addition to any repayments collected through the tax system - the repayments which you make on the basis of your income will not be reduced, but you will pay off your loan more quickly by making these extra repayments."

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By *artytwoCouple
over a year ago

Wolverhampton

I would challenge any W1's who work in the Public sector to maintain a kindly view of multiculturism and diversity.

Like it or not there is an underground race-war going on in these isles, in fact it may have already been won.

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By *atisfy janeWoman
over a year ago

Torquay


"I would challenge any W1's who work in the Public sector to maintain a kindly view of multiculturism and diversity.

Like it or not there is an underground race-war going on in these isles, in fact it may have already been won."

Who's won then?......did I miss this war?, when did it happen?, only I was stuck in the NEC most of the weekend and must have been hidden from it.

Damn!

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"I would challenge any W1's who work in the Public sector to maintain a kindly view of multiculturism and diversity.

Like it or not there is an underground race-war going on in these isles, in fact it may have already been won."

Really, please explain

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"..........but, I can only plan for what I know now and as it stands, she'll need £9k/term for a minimum 3 years - ok, so it's a loan that she'll have to pay back - WITH INTEREST - so it's my intention to pay the damn off asap. ............

1) it isn't £9,000 per term, it's £9,000 per academic year and

2) you're not allowed to pay it off when it suits you. It has to be repaid at a set %age via PAYE.

re point 2 i think you shall find that you CAN pay back earlier through the voluntary repayment scheme........i quote from direct.gov.uk website

"If you took out a student loan in or after 1998, and want to repay it more quickly, you can make voluntary repayments.

These will be made in addition to any repayments collected through the tax system - the repayments which you make on the basis of your income will not be reduced, but you will pay off your loan more quickly by making these extra repayments."

"

That's how things were in the past. Michael Gove has insisted that tuition fees must be repaid through PAYE 'cos he's relying on the interest - up to the rate of inflation + 3% - to finance the arrangement in the first place.

There's lots of other nasty stings in the tale as the students who gralloched Clegg on telly earlier pointed out.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"..........but, I can only plan for what I know now and as it stands, she'll need £9k/term for a minimum 3 years - ok, so it's a loan that she'll have to pay back - WITH INTEREST - so it's my intention to pay the damn off asap. ............

1) it isn't £9,000 per term, it's £9,000 per academic year and

2) you're not allowed to pay it off when it suits you. It has to be repaid at a set %age via PAYE.

re point 2 i think you shall find that you CAN pay back earlier through the voluntary repayment scheme........i quote from direct.gov.uk website

"If you took out a student loan in or after 1998, and want to repay it more quickly, you can make voluntary repayments.

These will be made in addition to any repayments collected through the tax system - the repayments which you make on the basis of your income will not be reduced, but you will pay off your loan more quickly by making these extra repayments."

That's how things were in the past. Michael Gove has insisted that tuition fees must be repaid through PAYE 'cos he's relying on the interest - up to the rate of inflation + 3% - to finance the arrangement in the first place.

There's lots of other nasty stings in the tale as the students who gralloched Clegg on telly earlier pointed out."

is he not just proposing these changes?? i voluntarily paid mines and the info on the website remains as it was when i paid mines off in october 2010. i suppose its hypothetical anyway cos one things for sure.....no one knows what changes will be made to this arrangement in years to come.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


".............

is he not just proposing these changes?? i voluntarily paid mines and the info on the website remains as it was when i paid mines off in october 2010. i suppose its hypothetical anyway cos one things for sure.....no one knows what changes will be made to this arrangement in years to come.

"

Of course no government can bind a successor but what I've outlined above is the Tory-led coalition plan as it stands now. They have a majority in the houseso unless they change their minds that's what'll happen.

The student marches we saw a while back were an atempt to get the govt to change the proposals but there's no sign of that happening.

Regardless of what changes anon Tory government makes to the arrangements for repayment the fact remains students' debts will still remain because of the cost of writing it off will be huge.

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