FabSwingers.com forum: Smoking in prison

By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

Ban or not to ban ?.... that is the question !

Whether tis noble to let lags have fags or suffer the pangs of withdrawal......

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I think that should be left up to prison guards, that's who have to deal with the fall out,

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

"I think that should be left up to prison guards, that's who have to deal with the fall out, "

Ah but surely prison guards aren't allowed to smoke in their workplace.....

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By *abphilMan
over a year ago

sheffield

"I think that should be left up to prison guards, that's who have to deal with the fall out,

Ah but surely prison guards aren't allowed to smoke in their workplace.....

It is a smoking at work issue

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

"I think that should be left up to prison guards, that's who have to deal with the fall out,

Ah but surely prison guards aren't allowed to smoke in their workplace.....

It is a smoking at work issue"

Oh come-come don't sit on the fence.....

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By *picyminxWoman
over a year ago

Huntingdon

"Ban or not to ban ?.... that is the question !

Whether tis noble to let lags have fags or suffer the pangs of withdrawal......

Let them smoke

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Ban or not to ban ?.... that is the question !

Whether tis noble to let lags have fags or suffer the pangs of withdrawal......

BAN...and the reason for my answer?

Well we can't smoke in public i.e my local boozer and we've done f**k all wrong! After all they're in prison for a reason so why should they have all the liberties? and we the law abiding public can't!

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By *picyminxWoman
over a year ago

Huntingdon

"Ban or not to ban ?.... that is the question !

Whether tis noble to let lags have fags or suffer the pangs of withdrawal......

BAN...and the reason for my answer?

G."

Are cells classed as a public place though? They can smoke in their cells and excercise yard but not on the wings

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

The Uk penal system (he he he I said penal) is intended to reform not punish, for right or wrong, so it would be tricky to ban them as it could easily be interpreted as a punitive action

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By *its_n_piecesCouple
over a year ago

how would the screws make their bit'o dosh on the side from selling snout to lags though?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Ban they shouldn't have any luxuries whatsoever inside they are in there as a punishement

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Acute psychiatric units, long-term secure hospitals and residential placements have long since adhered to the ban.

There was enormous resistance amongst staff and patients to the changes, and great anxiety about the effects - but it has generally worked well.

There is no reason not to enforce it in the prison system.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Is it technically not home? No splinters in my arse by the way.

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By *abphilMan
over a year ago

sheffield

"I think that should be left up to prison guards, that's who have to deal with the fall out,

Ah but surely prison guards aren't allowed to smoke in their workplace.....

It is a smoking at work issue

Oh come-come don't sit on the fence.....

Give em cigs, alcohol and call girls, free season tickets for the nearest premier match and £300 spending money

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Ban they shouldn't have any luxuries whatsoever inside they are in there as a punishement"

Very true. Truck load of vapes on the way to Strangeways is it

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

"how would the screws make their bit'o dosh on the side from selling snout to lags though?"

A coin operated glory-hole seems a reasonable option,,,,,,, could even have a slot for tokens earned for good behaviour....

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Ban or not to ban ?.... that is the question !

Whether tis noble to let lags have fags or suffer the pangs of withdrawal......

BAN...and the reason for my answer?

Are cells classed as a public place though? They can smoke in their cells and excercise yard but not on the wings "

Shouldn't be allowed full stop! As i said why should cons be allowed any liberties? They've obviously broke the law somehow!

Suffer the consequences..including NO SMOKING...Simples

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Yeah they're all scum. We should never be flexible to their demands and we're all saints. We never do anything wrong.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Ban or not to ban ?.... that is the question !

Whether tis noble to let lags have fags or suffer the pangs of withdrawal......

BAN...and the reason for my answer?

G."

Let them smoke but charge double tax let them pay for the honour of serving time in her majesty's prison!

-Ads

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By *ee VianteWoman
over a year ago

Somewhere in North Norfolk

I don't know. I can see both sides of this one.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Supply them with vape pens and an allocation of liquid and give them the tools to quit the habit.

Can only be a positive can't it?

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By *ee VianteWoman
over a year ago

Somewhere in North Norfolk

"Supply them with vape pens and an allocation of liquid and give them the tools to quit the habit.

Can only be a positive can't it?"

Some of them would make weapons out of vape pens.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

[Removed by poster at 15/02/16 14:53:51]

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Ban or not to ban ?.... that is the question !

Whether tis noble to let lags have fags or suffer the pangs of withdrawal......

BAN...and the reason for my answer?

G."

A prison isnt a public place though it's to all intense and purpose their home and private property so the smoking laws don't apply

It's upto the prison if they allow smoking in there same as its upto me if I let people smoke in my house

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By *abphilMan
over a year ago

sheffield

"Ban or not to ban ?.... that is the question !

Whether tis noble to let lags have fags or suffer the pangs of withdrawal......

BAN...and the reason for my answer?

A prison isnt a public place though it's to all intense and purpose their home and private property so the smoking laws don't apply

It's upto the prison if they allow smoking in there same as its upto me if I let people smoke in my house "

But i dont smoke and i have rights i just want the £300

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By *iss AdventureWoman
over a year ago

Wonderland

Where somewhere is classed as a place of residence, smoking is allowed (to my knowledge) much in the same way as many hotels still offer smoking rooms.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Ban or not to ban ?.... that is the question !

Whether tis noble to let lags have fags or suffer the pangs of withdrawal......

BAN...and the reason for my answer?

A prison isnt a public place though it's to all intense and purpose their home and private property so the smoking laws don't apply

It's upto the prison if they allow smoking in there same as its upto me if I let people smoke in my house "

Should be part of the penalty and sentence for whatever it is they did to be in prison for in the 1st place!

NO SMOKING....

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"The Uk penal system (he he he I said penal) is intended to reform not punish, for right or wrong, so it would be tricky to ban them as it could easily be interpreted as a punitive action"

Is it? I really don't think we have decided whether punishment or rehabilitation is the main purpose of our prison system. Nor do I think it would be easy to make such a decision.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Prisons are owned by the government, so paid for by us through taxes. Allow them to smoke outside like everybody else has too, but not in their cells. They do not own their cells and it isn't their home, it's a prison

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By *ivemeyoursoulWoman
over a year ago

Easter just around the corner!

"Yeah they're all scum. We should never be flexible to their demands and we're all saints. We never do anything wrong."

Speak for yourself,I don't do anything bad enough to get me a prison sentence I know that

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Ban they shouldn't have any luxuries whatsoever inside they are in there as a punishement"

You can't take everything away from people in prison, luxories are what keep them in line, if you take everything away from prisoners they have no hope and nothing to look forwards to, you have nothing to barter with either

Whats to stop them rioting etc if they have nothing to loose

I would suspect that giving them fags and treat for good behaviour is as much for the prison guards safty as much as anything else

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By *abphilMan
over a year ago

sheffield

"Ban they shouldn't have any luxuries whatsoever inside they are in there as a punishement

Whats to stop them rioting etc if they have nothing to loose

I would suspect that giving them fags and treat for good behaviour is as much for the prison guards safty as much as anything else "

Why bother locking em up in the first place?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Ban they shouldn't have any luxuries whatsoever inside they are in there as a punishement

Whats to stop them rioting etc if they have nothing to loose

I would suspect that giving them fags and treat for good behaviour is as much for the prison guards safty as much as anything else "

Why should they have luxories tho for breaking the law?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

You know, as I read some of the posts in this thread, I can see the posters standing there with flaming torches, and pitchforks, its an enduring image lol

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By *iamondsmiles.Woman
over a year ago

little house on the praire

I'm a smoker and I say they should ban it.

There will be bloody uproar to start with, however, if I got taken to hospital through no fault of my own I can't smoke, not even in the grounds.

If I'm a long term patient then hospital is my "home" for!that given time. Same as "prison" is for theirs.

For me it has nothing to do whether they are prisoners or not.

Open a smoking area In a place I have to be long term through no fault of my own then I'm happy for them to!smoke until their hearts content.

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By *abphilMan
over a year ago

sheffield

"Where somewhere is classed as a place of residence, smoking is allowed (to my knowledge) much in the same way as many hotels still offer smoking rooms."

Well i never knew that bars in hotels had smoke rooms

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Ban they shouldn't have any luxuries whatsoever inside they are in there as a punishement

Whats to stop them rioting etc if they have nothing to loose

I would suspect that giving them fags and treat for good behaviour is as much for the prison guards safty as much as anything else

Why bother locking em up in the first place?"

Yeah your right just let the murders carry on murdering, may as well if they're allowed a fag

Getting silly now

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By *irtyGirlWoman
over a year ago

Edinburgh

"Acute psychiatric units, long-term secure hospitals and residential placements have long since adhered to the ban.

There was enormous resistance amongst staff and patients to the changes, and great anxiety about the effects - but it has generally worked well.

There is no reason not to enforce it in the prison system."

I think this covers it for me. What about the rights of the non-smoking inmates?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Stop them having butter on their bread and gravy. Why should they be allowed any luxuries?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Acute psychiatric units, long-term secure hospitals and residential placements have long since adhered to the ban.

There was enormous resistance amongst staff and patients to the changes, and great anxiety about the effects - but it has generally worked well.

There is no reason not to enforce it in the prison system.

I think this covers it for me. What about the rights of the non-smoking inmates?

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By *iamondsmiles.Woman
over a year ago

little house on the praire

"Where somewhere is classed as a place of residence, smoking is allowed (to my knowledge) much in the same way as many hotels still offer smoking rooms."
where can you smoke in a hospital then?

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By *abphilMan
over a year ago

sheffield

"Stop them having butter on their bread and gravy. Why should they be allowed any luxuries? "

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By *abphilMan
over a year ago

sheffield

"Ban they shouldn't have any luxuries whatsoever inside they are in there as a punishement

Whats to stop them rioting etc if they have nothing to loose

I would suspect that giving them fags and treat for good behaviour is as much for the prison guards safty as much as anything else

Why bother locking em up in the first place?

Yeah your right just let the murders carry on murdering, may as well if they're allowed a fag

Getting silly now

Yes smoking kills give em extra long cigs

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I couldn't care less, as it doesn't really effect me!.

I think the guy who said let the guard's choose had it right

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I couldn't care less, as it doesn't really effect me!.

I think the guy who said let the guard's choose had it right"

I agree I think it should come down to the prison and the people who work there to choose

After all they are the ones who have to deal with them when they are pissed off, its ok us all saying don't like them smoke but we don't have to deal with the aftermath do we

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

For some people not being able to smoke in prison might act as a major deterrent.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Yeah they're all scum. We should never be flexible to their demands and we're all saints. We never do anything wrong."

Well im not the one in jail...

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By *ittle_brat_evie!!Woman
over a year ago

evesham

Those of you saying they shouldn't be 'given' luxuries like cigarettes do know they don't get them for free don't you?

You also know that smoking isn't the only liberty that gets taken away from you when you go to prison don't you? Some of you speak as if taking the fags off them is the only punishment they get.

Thing is it isn't just smoking that this will affect. Tobacco and smoking products are used to settle debts etc in prisons and without that tradeable resource it is possible that violence could increase, especially as people deal with withdrawal etc. That will ultimately put pressure on an ever depleting custody staff and put them at more risk of assault etc.

It could also result in higher drug use, especially as legal highs become more prevalent while the detection methods struggle to catch up to newer versions.

Yes there is the home/workplace argument and I can see both sides to it.

And as for all those tax pennies you are so worried about....do you think banning smoking will come free? There will be the implementation costs, inevitable litigation from staff and prisoners, costs due staff sickness as assaults increase etc.

I'm not saying it's a bad thing to ban smoking but sometimes people think too simplistically and don't see the bigger picture.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Well smoking reduces life span so if they are so undesirable then let them smoke - they'll die quicker

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

If they can't keep illegal drugs out of prisons how would you expect them to keep legal ones out ?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Why pander to the addicts ?

Just tell them it's banned and be done with it.

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By *ukepastMan
over a year ago

Newport

"how would the screws make their bit'o dosh on the side from selling snout to lags though?

A coin operated glory-hole seems a reasonable option,,,,,,, could even have a slot for tokens earned for good behaviour....

And on the receiving side of the glory hole. .. A higher priced coin slot for the lags "wot likes a bit of cock"

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Ban or not to ban ?.... that is the question !

Whether tis noble to let lags have fags or suffer the pangs of withdrawal......

BAN...and the reason for my answer?

G."
The law abiding public like us should have the right to breathe clean air while we enjoy a night out....letting others breathe in second hand shit is wrong and the law right

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Fuck em feed em rice!

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Great idea in these times of low numbers of staff and record assaults on staff. Add this to the increase in radicalisation and bullying getting them to give up will impact hard on everyone involved including the staffs families and prisoners families.

Let them smoke in the privacy of their own cells when they are locked up. They pay for the privilege apart from their first pack I see no issue.

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By *its_n_piecesCouple
over a year ago

"how would the screws make their bit'o dosh on the side from selling snout to lags though?

A coin operated glory-hole seems a reasonable option,,,,,,, could even have a slot for tokens earned for good behaviour....

that's a pointless idea while the showers are free .....

can't see the screws wanting to give up their contraband smuggling rackets tbh

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By *ophieslutTV/TS
over a year ago

Central

Let them smoke. Prison is for crime rehabilitation and removal of someone's full place in society. Nothing more.

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By *inaTitzTV/TS
over a year ago

Titz Towers, North Notts

Seems wonderfully simplistic and like most simple ideas sounds better in theory than in practice.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Ban or not to ban ?.... that is the question !

Whether tis noble to let lags have fags or suffer the pangs of withdrawal......

BAN...and the reason for my answer?

Are cells classed as a public place though? They can smoke in their cells and excercise yard but not on the wings

Shouldn't be allowed full stop! As i said why should cons be allowed any liberties? They've obviously broke the law somehow!

Suffer the consequences..including NO SMOKING...Simples

G."

Not all people in prison have broken the law. Miscarriages of justice do happen. The justice system is not perfect, any system governed by people will never be perfect, as people are not perfect in nature. Their punishment for committing crimes is the lack of freedom. The public have the option to smoke in their own home. Prison is home for the people convicted. If we ban it in their "home", we should ban it in all homes.

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By *enard ArgenteMan
over a year ago

London and France

"Where somewhere is classed as a place of residence, smoking is allowed (to my knowledge) much in the same way as many hotels still offer smoking rooms.where can you smoke in a hospital then?"

You can't any more; and lots of hospitals don't even let you smoke outside in the grounds anymore.

As for hotels; there are no " smoking" bars, but they are still legally able to offer smoking bedrooms. Most don't though....

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Should be OK to smoke in a single cell or a shared cell where both are smokers

Banned in any public area

Minging habit anyway

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

and smoking in Hospitals???????

WTF!

Why not take in a bottle of whisky and a donner kebab as well

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By *oachman 9CoolMan
over a year ago

derby

"The Uk penal system (he he he I said penal) is intended to reform not punish, for right or wrong, so it would be tricky to ban them as it could easily be interpreted as a punitive action

Is it? I really don't think we have decided whether punishment or rehabilitation is the main purpose of our prison system. Nor do I think it would be easy to make such a decision."
Send them all back in time in Doctor who`s tardis 130 years no luxurys in them days a bread crust and Some water for many or watered down porridge or perhaps a bible to read if they could for their sins.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

No fags for the lags

I would also take away all other luxuries including the gym. What is the point of sending a buffoon to jail for gbh then letting them spend 5 hours a day working out. Guess what next time they flip its not gbh but murder. Well done to the prison service

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Prison is classed as their home aslong as it's kept in their cell that fair enough xxx

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Not all people in prison have broken the law. Miscarriages of justice do happen. "

99.99% have broken the law!

Sticking to my guns..

Stop them smoking! As someone posted earlier maybe a prison smoking ban may make them think before they do anything to get them banged up in the 1st place!

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Not all people in prison have broken the law. Miscarriages of justice do happen.

99.99% have broken the law!

Sticking to my guns..

Stop them smoking! As someone posted earlier maybe a prison smoking ban may make them think before they do anything to get them banged up in the 1st place!

There are 3500 magistrate convictions per year alone that get quashed at crown court level. An average of 10 wrongful convictions every day. Miscarriages of justice are a normal daily routine in the justice system contrary to popular belief. Most miscarriages of justice are just not high profile enough to make media coverage.

On another note; If the lack of freedom doesn't deter criminals, why would a smoking ban?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

And by your statistics only 8 people in the uk prison population have had a wrongful conviction and are currently in prison for it...

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By *ildt123Man
over a year ago

Huddersfield

Really?

I doubt there are any figures being produced about how many incidents there have been due to the smoking ban being introduced in secure Psych units and if there are I doubt there accuracy. But there are a lot and many near miss or actual fire incidents. And why they are not even allowed to smoke outside in the grounds is baffling, nursing staff have to deal with the fall out as would prison officers.

Personally there ought to be away to facilitate smoking without making others suffer but I don't agree there is a human right to smoke as some argue.

If you can't smoke because your locked up through illness you shouldn't be allowed to if your locked up through criminality

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Ban.

No need for it. No excuse for it. No justification for it.

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By *imiUKMan
over a year ago

Hereford

This thread has taught me that if something isn't white, it must be black.

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By *artytwoCouple
over a year ago

Wolverhampton

It's always interesting to hear the 'usual suspect liberals' turn into hang 'em and flog 'em proponents whenever prison is mentioned.

No doubt some people on Fab have been to a prison iether professionally or maybe even as an inmate.

"I'm here as a punishment, not to be punished" is a frequent complaint heard in prisons. For some, smoking is their only comfort. Yes, it could be enforced but it would just turn into another contraband item like drugs and mobiles. Smoking is banned in all public areas in a prison but most ignore it and staff tend to turn a blind eye. Staff smokers also break the rules, especially governers, because they can.

Smoking could be banned in prisons but it would still go on.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

They can't control the use of mobile phones,drugs,booze or anything else they get their entertainment from.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Yeah should be banned inside the prison.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

First up, the ban is coming, so the OP's question is immaterial: the government is bringing in a complete ban that all prisons will enforce by the end of the year.

The repercussions are, frankly, worrying and a little frightening. As someone who works in a prison, I worry how the inmates will react and the consequent possibility of violence to staff. It is inevitable that the ban will cause a great deal of bullying within prisons as cigarettes become even more sought after than they are now.

Those who say "Fuck 'em" ought to think how they would like to have to deal with sometimes very violent characters when you have taken away one of the only pleasures they currently have

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

"First up, the ban is coming, so the OP's question is immaterial: the government is bringing in a complete ban that all prisons will enforce by the end of the year.

Those who say "Fuck 'em" ought to think how they would like to have to deal with sometimes very violent characters when you have taken away one of the only pleasures they currently have"

The OP is about inviting discussion .....

It's not telling people what to think,,,

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By *iamondjoeMan
over a year ago

Glastonbury

The same difficulty exists in secure mental health facilities

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"First up, the ban is coming, so the OP's question is immaterial: the government is bringing in a complete ban that all prisons will enforce by the end of the year.

Those who say "Fuck 'em" ought to think how they would like to have to deal with sometimes very violent characters when you have taken away one of the only pleasures they currently have

The OP is about inviting discussion .....

It's not telling people what to think,,,"

I understand. I just thought it was worth pointing out that the issue is beyond debate: the government has already decided. Many of the posts above seem to indicate that many people don't realise this. That's all

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

"First up, the ban is coming, so the OP's question is immaterial: the government is bringing in a complete ban that all prisons will enforce by the end of the year.

Those who say "Fuck 'em" ought to think how they would like to have to deal with sometimes very violent characters when you have taken away one of the only pleasures they currently have

The OP is about inviting discussion .....

It's not telling people what to think,,,

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"First up, the ban is coming, so the OP's question is immaterial: the government is bringing in a complete ban that all prisons will enforce by the end of the year.

Those who say "Fuck 'em" ought to think how they would like to have to deal with sometimes very violent characters when you have taken away one of the only pleasures they currently have"

They are convicted criminals! (muggings, granny bashing, rape,assult etc etc) what pleasure do their victims get??? why should they (the cons) be allowed any pleasure?... if they didnt commit the crime they wouldnt be there in the 1st place simple as...and we wouldn't be having this debate!

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Why not have a volunteer wing of the prison where prisoners could volunteer to take the place of beagles and smoke in a laboratory environment in an effort to fight cancer. Then the prisoners could enjoy their cigarettes and be atoning for their crimes at the same time.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"First up, the ban is coming, so the OP's question is immaterial: the government is bringing in a complete ban that all prisons will enforce by the end of the year.

Those who say "Fuck 'em" ought to think how they would like to have to deal with sometimes very violent characters when you have taken away one of the only pleasures they currently have

I was thinking more about the potential for violence against staff than anything else. I strongly suspect the ban will see riots within the prisons, putting staff in very grave danger. Are you not concerned about that possibility?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"First up, the ban is coming, so the OP's question is immaterial: the government is bringing in a complete ban that all prisons will enforce by the end of the year.

Those who say "Fuck 'em" ought to think how they would like to have to deal with sometimes very violent characters when you have taken away one of the only pleasures they currently have

People choose to be prison wardens just like I chose to be a firefighter we all know the risks and dangers that come with the job sorry..

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"First up, the ban is coming, so the OP's question is immaterial: the government is bringing in a complete ban that all prisons will enforce by the end of the year.

Those who say "Fuck 'em" ought to think how they would like to have to deal with sometimes very violent characters when you have taken away one of the only pleasures they currently have

People choose to be prison wardens just like I chose to be a firefighter we all know the risks and dangers that come with the job sorry.."

Very touching attitude. I assume if you hear of soldiers dying in foreign fields you have the same attitude?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

No it shouldn't be banned in prisons. I've only just finished at g4s after 2 years and as a former custody officer anything that keeps the prisoners happy makes for a safer environment for those working there.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"No it shouldn't be banned in prisons. I've only just finished at g4s after 2 years and as a former custody officer anything that keeps the prisoners happy makes for a safer environment for those working there. "
Fuck them,let them suffer the dregs of society ,why reward them whilst being punished ,if they step out of line hose the filth down,segregate and make them suffer,why pander to criminals,Prison officers if you cant handle it get a job in daycare for pensioners

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"No it shouldn't be banned in prisons. I've only just finished at g4s after 2 years and as a former custody officer anything that keeps the prisoners happy makes for a safer environment for those working there. Fuck them,let them suffer the dregs of society ,why reward them whilst being punished ,if they step out of line hose the filth down,segregate and make them suffer,why pander to criminals,Prison officers if you cant handle it get a job in daycare for pensioners

It's not about not handling it it's more the fact that we are unarmed, we don't have truncheons or stab vests or anything on a regular day. We have trousers a shirt and a jumper or fleece for protection. I don't have sympathy for prisoners but it's just good sense to try and keep things peaceful and calm when you're dealing with very violent people.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"First up, the ban is coming, so the OP's question is immaterial: the government is bringing in a complete ban that all prisons will enforce by the end of the year.

Those who say "Fuck 'em" ought to think how they would like to have to deal with sometimes very violent characters when you have taken away one of the only pleasures they currently have

People choose to be prison wardens just like I chose to be a firefighter we all know the risks and dangers that come with the job sorry..

Very touching attitude. I assume if you hear of soldiers dying in foreign fields you have the same attitude?

SOLDIERS DYING IN FOREIGN FIELDS

Different debate for a different day! Please do not hijack the OP's post thanks.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"First up, the ban is coming, so the OP's question is immaterial: the government is bringing in a complete ban that all prisons will enforce by the end of the year.

Those who say "Fuck 'em" ought to think how they would like to have to deal with sometimes very violent characters when you have taken away one of the only pleasures they currently have"

I work in both prisons and secure hospitals amongst some of the most damaged and unpredictable people imaginable. The same arguments were floated before the smoking ban in the hospitals. Whilst there were initially

some problems, everyone has generally

been surprised at the ease of transition.

If you treat human beings with dignity, which includes caring about their health, then they will often respond in far more positive ways than expected.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"First up, the ban is coming, so the OP's question is immaterial: the government is bringing in a complete ban that all prisons will enforce by the end of the year.

Those who say "Fuck 'em" ought to think how they would like to have to deal with sometimes very violent characters when you have taken away one of the only pleasures they currently have

some problems, everyone has generally

been surprised at the ease of transition.

If you treat human beings with dignity, which includes caring about their health, then they will often respond in far more positive ways than expected."

Did them in prison treat their victims with dignity? Prison should be that 4 walls nothing else, no luxuries, no jobs nothing, locked up with all liberties taken away

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"First up, the ban is coming, so the OP's question is immaterial: the government is bringing in a complete ban that all prisons will enforce by the end of the year.

Those who say "Fuck 'em" ought to think how they would like to have to deal with sometimes very violent characters when you have taken away one of the only pleasures they currently have

some problems, everyone has generally

been surprised at the ease of transition.

If you treat human beings with dignity, which includes caring about their health, then they will often respond in far more positive ways than expected.

Did them in prison treat their victims with dignity? Prison should be that 4 walls nothing else, no luxuries, no jobs nothing, locked up with all liberties taken away"

Treat a person like an animal, and that's how they will act.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Treat a person like an animal, and that's how they will act."

Same goes for the victims, sorry but people make the choice to be a criminal and break the law

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I want to say no. But at the same time the bans exist for the health of non smokers.

Im a smoker but i could accept it if i was in prison. It easy to see the other side though xx

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I love how its assumed all prisoners are nasty pieces of work who have done terrible things. What a bout people who have commited fraud because they didnt understand the tax system or something. And couldnt repay the money in time. Or people who have stolen food so they can feed their kids.

Some have just done what they need to survive. Granted not everyone but just because youve made some mistakes doesnt make them all evil.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"First up, the ban is coming, so the OP's question is immaterial: the government is bringing in a complete ban that all prisons will enforce by the end of the year.

Those who say "Fuck 'em" ought to think how they would like to have to deal with sometimes very violent characters when you have taken away one of the only pleasures they currently have

some problems, everyone has generally

been surprised at the ease of transition.

If you treat human beings with dignity, which includes caring about their health, then they will often respond in far more positive ways than expected.

Did them in prison treat their victims with dignity? Prison should be that 4 walls nothing else, no luxuries, no jobs nothing, locked up with all liberties taken away

Treat a person like an animal, and that's how they will act."
kick stab and isolate that animal until it learns conforms or dies.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"kick stab and isolate that animal until it learns conforms or dies. "

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"kick stab and isolate that animal until it learns conforms or dies.

Goodness me. Words fail me.....

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"First up, the ban is coming, so the OP's question is immaterial: the government is bringing in a complete ban that all prisons will enforce by the end of the year.

Those who say "Fuck 'em" ought to think how they would like to have to deal with sometimes very violent characters when you have taken away one of the only pleasures they currently have

People choose to be prison wardens just like I chose to be a firefighter we all know the risks and dangers that come with the job sorry..

Very touching attitude. I assume if you hear of soldiers dying in foreign fields you have the same attitude?

SOLDIERS DYING IN FOREIGN FIELDS

Different debate for a different day! Please do not hijack the OP's post thanks."

Actually this is very relevant as it broached the same subject. People choose to be soldiers, people choose to be wardens and custody officers, so is the attitude towards both professions the same? Very relevant question given the direction that was taken with the comment.

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By *artytwoCouple
over a year ago

Wolverhampton

Wow, hard to believe we've got something in common lol.

Survivors of G4S. The bastards.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Presumably the ban won't be on nicotine and they'll be provided with help to quit. Therefore the 'happy prisoner' argument is moot.

I'm glad to see they're being banned.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I love how its assumed all prisoners are nasty pieces of work who have done terrible things. What a bout people who have commited fraud because they didnt understand the tax system "

Yeah that was my excuse...

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"First up, the ban is coming, so the OP's question is immaterial: the government is bringing in a complete ban that all prisons will enforce by the end of the year.

Those who say "Fuck 'em" ought to think how they would like to have to deal with sometimes very violent characters when you have taken away one of the only pleasures they currently have

People choose to be prison wardens just like I chose to be a firefighter we all know the risks and dangers that come with the job sorry..

Very touching attitude. I assume if you hear of soldiers dying in foreign fields you have the same attitude?

SOLDIERS DYING IN FOREIGN FIELDS

Different debate for a different day! Please do not hijack the OP's post thanks.

Not gonna get drawn into pettyness yes we all do/did jobs with risks and we knew them when taking the job! I myself ran into burning buildings when others were running out I chose to do that job simples....my attitude on the ban of smoking for prisioners remains the same! No luxuries for cons simples!!

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Ban they shouldn't have any luxuries whatsoever inside they are in there as a punishement"

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"First up, the ban is coming, so the OP's question is immaterial: the government is bringing in a complete ban that all prisons will enforce by the end of the year.

Those who say "Fuck 'em" ought to think how they would like to have to deal with sometimes very violent characters when you have taken away one of the only pleasures they currently have

People choose to be prison wardens just like I chose to be a firefighter we all know the risks and dangers that come with the job sorry..

Very touching attitude. I assume if you hear of soldiers dying in foreign fields you have the same attitude?

SOLDIERS DYING IN FOREIGN FIELDS

Different debate for a different day! Please do not hijack the OP's post thanks.

I wasn't trying to be petty, if that's how you think I was being. I agree we all choose our jobs having full disclosure of what is expected. You are entitled to your opinion on who prisoners should be treated and I respect your opinion, although I don't agree with it.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"First up, the ban is coming, so the OP's question is immaterial: the government is bringing in a complete ban that all prisons will enforce by the end of the year.

Those who say "Fuck 'em" ought to think how they would like to have to deal with sometimes very violent characters when you have taken away one of the only pleasures they currently have

People choose to be prison wardens just like I chose to be a firefighter we all know the risks and dangers that come with the job sorry..

Very touching attitude. I assume if you hear of soldiers dying in foreign fields you have the same attitude?

SOLDIERS DYING IN FOREIGN FIELDS

Different debate for a different day! Please do not hijack the OP's post thanks.

I wasn't trying to be petty, if that's how you think I was being. I agree we all choose our jobs having full disclosure of what is expected. You are entitled to your opinion on how prisoners should be treated and I respect your opinion, although I don't agree with it. "
I'm NOT asking you to agree with it! But if it's of any consolation to you i also respect your opinion! So can we agree to disagree? and leave it now please!

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

[Removed by poster at 18/02/16 08:13:12]

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By *imiUKMan
over a year ago

Hereford

"First up, the ban is coming, so the OP's question is immaterial: the government is bringing in a complete ban that all prisons will enforce by the end of the year.

Those who say "Fuck 'em" ought to think how they would like to have to deal with sometimes very violent characters when you have taken away one of the only pleasures they currently have

some problems, everyone has generally

been surprised at the ease of transition.

If you treat human beings with dignity, which includes caring about their health, then they will often respond in far more positive ways than expected.

Did them in prison treat their victims with dignity? Prison should be that 4 walls nothing else, no luxuries, no jobs nothing, locked up with all liberties taken away

Treat a person like an animal, and that's how they will act.kick stab and isolate that animal until it learns conforms or dies. "

How ironic then, that were you to actually work with animals with that philosophy, it would probably be you who ended up in prison, and rightfully so.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"First up, the ban is coming, so the OP's question is immaterial: the government is bringing in a complete ban that all prisons will enforce by the end of the year.

Those who say "Fuck 'em" ought to think how they would like to have to deal with sometimes very violent characters when you have taken away one of the only pleasures they currently have

some problems, everyone has generally

been surprised at the ease of transition.

If you treat human beings with dignity, which includes caring about their health, then they will often respond in far more positive ways than expected.

Did them in prison treat their victims with dignity? Prison should be that 4 walls nothing else, no luxuries, no jobs nothing, locked up with all liberties taken away

Treat a person like an animal, and that's how they will act.kick stab and isolate that animal until it learns conforms or dies.

How ironic then, that were you to actually work with animals with that philosophy, it would probably be you who ended up in prison, and rightfully so."
S o your punishing someone by giving them 3 meals a day a roof over their heads,gym facilities x boxes...sky tv...and now your saying let them kill the bloke next to them having to breathe in their shit.ok so my comment was strongly worded but you get the jist,step out of line and the punishment becomes more severe to the non detterent prison system we have now,...Can i remind you that animals are killed if they harm humans and im sure you would like the odd pigs throat cut to partake in your fried breakfast,should the slaughter man go to prison and be denied fags

..no fags for lags,they want fags...log onto fab

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By *imiUKMan
over a year ago

Hereford

"First up, the ban is coming, so the OP's question is immaterial: the government is bringing in a complete ban that all prisons will enforce by the end of the year.

Those who say "Fuck 'em" ought to think how they would like to have to deal with sometimes very violent characters when you have taken away one of the only pleasures they currently have

some problems, everyone has generally

been surprised at the ease of transition.

If you treat human beings with dignity, which includes caring about their health, then they will often respond in far more positive ways than expected.

Did them in prison treat their victims with dignity? Prison should be that 4 walls nothing else, no luxuries, no jobs nothing, locked up with all liberties taken away

Treat a person like an animal, and that's how they will act.kick stab and isolate that animal until it learns conforms or dies.

How ironic then, that were you to actually work with animals with that philosophy, it would probably be you who ended up in prison, and rightfully so.S o your punishing someone by giving them 3 meals a day a roof over their heads,gym facilities x boxes...sky tv...and now your saying let them kill the bloke next to them having to breathe in their shit.ok so my comment was strongly worded but you get the jist,step out of line and the punishment becomes more severe to the non detterent prison system we have now,...Can i remind you that animals are killed if they harm humans and im sure you would like the odd pigs throat cut to partake in your fried breakfast,should the slaughter man go to prison and be denied fags

..no fags for lags,they want fags...log onto fab

Prison is supposed to rehabilitate for the most part. Deterrents don't work - countries with the death penalty still have crime, and lots of it.

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By *imiUKMan
over a year ago

Hereford

And also; I'm very aware that livestock is killed for food. I have spent my life working in the livestock industry, hence my point. If an animal doesn't do what we want it to, kicking, punching and stabbing it really isn't the way to get it to behave. If, on the other hand you want to make it into a danger to be around. ..

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By *ugby 123Couple
Forum Mod
over a year ago

O o O oo

Keep it civil please, if you can't debate without calling each other names maybe read the forum summary from admin and do what they advise

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Ok, let's get away from all the hang, draw and quarter talk. The prison system is what it is. In my opinion treating anyone cruelly is pointless and counterproductive. Even Churchill advocated rehabilitation and the fair treatment of prisoners.

It's simple economics. It costs thousands to keep someone in custody. As taxpayers I'm sure we all want a system that rehabilitates rather than hardens criminals and turns them into recidivists. It's cheaper to not keep banging them up!

It's a fine line to tread though and the pendulum swings first one way then the other. The truth is some approaches work for some and other approaches work for others.

As regards smoking. You can ban it but then you have to enforce the ban. Extra staff, possibility of more riots and therefore more riot staff. More staff injuries.

Also how are you going to prosecute those who have had a fag? At the moment, if you smell cannabis on a wing you urine test the likely offenders. Not sure if similar exists for tobacco. Not forgetting to secure an adjudication in jails you need to have evidence.

Lastly, if you ban tobacco you also take away an effective tool for crisis management. The words, tell you what son, fancy a fag whilst we talk about why you are (self harming/making threats/or refusing to do as you're told) do wonders! Bribery? Or jail craft of a wiser screw?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Ok, let's get away from all the hang, draw and quarter talk. The prison system is what it is. In my opinion treating anyone cruelly is pointless and counterproductive. Even Churchill advocated rehabilitation and the fair treatment of prisoners.

It's a fine line to tread though and the pendulum swings first one way then the other. The truth is some approaches work for some and other approaches work for others.

As regards smoking. You can ban it but then you have to enforce the ban. Extra staff, possibility of more riots and therefore more riot staff. More staff injuries.

they are there because they cant follow rules and have no moral backbone and to be honest most are as thick as a castle wall,rehabilitation is following rules....its as simple as that.

Provide a smoking shelter outside in the yard where tobacco can be purchased and consumed in single measures ie...1 fag at a time,it may help some kick the filthy habit in the long run

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"First up, the ban is coming, so the OP's question is immaterial: the government is bringing in a complete ban that all prisons will enforce by the end of the year.

Those who say "Fuck 'em" ought to think how they would like to have to deal with sometimes very violent characters when you have taken away one of the only pleasures they currently have

some problems, everyone has generally

been surprised at the ease of transition.

If you treat human beings with dignity, which includes caring about their health, then they will often respond in far more positive ways than expected.

Did them in prison treat their victims with dignity? Prison should be that 4 walls nothing else, no luxuries, no jobs nothing, locked up with all liberties taken away

Treat a person like an animal, and that's how they will act.kick stab and isolate that animal until it learns conforms or dies.

..no fags for lags,they want fags...log onto fab

Food and shelter is part of the basic human rights that are upheld in this country. Any games consoles they have are not given to them, they are paid for out of the very minimal wages they earn for working in the prison; whether it's laundry, leather work or cooking to name a few areas. Most categories of prison don't get sky tv either, they are typically the lower category prisons which are there to allow for integration into society prior to release. Please do research on the subject before you share your "facts."

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By *ophieslutTV/TS
over a year ago

Central

I think the big issue is drugs in prison. Let them smoke cigarettes reasonably, though with protected shelters.

The swivel eyed brigade who won't focus on rehabilitation are so out there, with no benefit to wider society, that they deserve their whinging to be ignored.

Improve rehabilitation and get prison time to be as effective as possible.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I think the big issue is drugs in prison. Let them smoke cigarettes reasonably, though with protected shelters.

The swivel eyed brigade who won't focus on rehabilitation are so out there, with no benefit to wider society, that they deserve their whinging to be ignored.

Improve rehabilitation and get prison time to be as effective as possible."

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"First up, the ban is coming, so the OP's question is immaterial: the government is bringing in a complete ban that all prisons will enforce by the end of the year.

Those who say "Fuck 'em" ought to think how they would like to have to deal with sometimes very violent characters when you have taken away one of the only pleasures they currently have

some problems, everyone has generally

been surprised at the ease of transition.

If you treat human beings with dignity, which includes caring about their health, then they will often respond in far more positive ways than expected.

Did them in prison treat their victims with dignity? Prison should be that 4 walls nothing else, no luxuries, no jobs nothing, locked up with all liberties taken away

Treat a person like an animal, and that's how they will act.kick stab and isolate that animal until it learns conforms or dies.

..no fags for lags,they want fags...log onto fab

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By *verysmileMan
over a year ago

CANTERBURY

Ban something that is legal outside will mean that smuggling increases. You should limit smoking to smoking areas as is the case in the outside world.

Cynically, if long term prisoners who have committed serious crimes want to kill themselves slowly, then I am all in favour of it.

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By *artytwoCouple
over a year ago

Wolverhampton

Look, lets get a few facts straight:

However it started out, prison is a business these days and like any industry it has to make a profit or at the very least break even. That applies to the private AND public sector institutions. Hence the reduction in staff prisoner ratios that are causing a lot of concern atm and the move to create more Super-Prisons which are very 'economical' compared to the old grey-brick style.

Criminal Justice for some people is a huge money making opportunity. Crime pays very nicely for Judges, Barristers, companies like Serco, Geo-Amey, G4S and all the other agencies and hangers-on. Reducing (re)offending sounds very nice in theory but do any of the above really want to reduce crime? Think about it.

However badly run or dangerous a prison is it always serves it's primary purpose

which is to lock convicted criminals up away from the public eye. All the human rights, education, rehabilitation etc are just details and generally lip-service to the IMB, Howard League and all the bullshit inspectorate services that get involved. Not to mention the Prison Performance Ratings that NOMS publish (Check it out)

Smoking? just another detail. The human side of it is irrelevant and prisoners and staff will both suffer.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

It's a fine line to tread though and the pendulum swings first one way then the other. The truth is some approaches work for some and other approaches work for others.

As regards smoking. You can ban it but then you have to enforce the ban. Extra staff, possibility of more riots and therefore more riot staff. More staff injuries.

they are there because they cant follow rules and have no moral backbone and to be honest most are as thick as a castle wall,rehabilitation is following rules....its as simple as that.

Provide a smoking shelter outside in the yard where tobacco can be purchased and consumed in single measures ie...1 fag at a time,it may help some kick the filthy habit in the long run"

Forget about what rules? Prisoners are allowed to smoke in their cells or the exercise yard and that's all. Their cells are classed as their residence.

As for the shelter outside. How do they get to this shelter? After all, it's a jail with locked doors and gates. A staff member would have escort them for each fag. And who would staff the kiosk to dispense the tobacco? Currently prisoners order their tobacco and pay for it weekly out of their earnings....which are extremely meagre.

Sky boxes aren't available in the public sector and the newest console allowed is PS2. Effectively consoles have been disallowed.

From your extensive knowledge of the criminal classes, you've deduced they are thick. prisoners are a cross section of society and some aren't that bright but many are. Bit like fab really!

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

It's a fine line to tread though and the pendulum swings first one way then the other. The truth is some approaches work for some and other approaches work for others.

As regards smoking. You can ban it but then you have to enforce the ban. Extra staff, possibility of more riots and therefore more riot staff. More staff injuries.

they are there because they cant follow rules and have no moral backbone and to be honest most are as thick as a castle wall,rehabilitation is following rules....its as simple as that.

Provide a smoking shelter outside in the yard where tobacco can be purchased and consumed in single measures ie...1 fag at a time,it may help some kick the filthy habit in the long run

Forget about what rules? Prisoners are allowed to smoke in their cells or the exercise yard and that's all. Their cells are classed as their residence.

Sky boxes aren't available in the public sector and the newest console allowed is PS2. Effectively consoles have been disallowed.

From your extensive knowledge of the criminal classes, you've deduced they are thick. prisoners are a cross section of society and some aren't that bright but many are. Bit like fab really!"

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By *abphilMan
over a year ago

sheffield

It's a fine line to tread though and the pendulum swings first one way then the other. The truth is some approaches work for some and other approaches work for others.

As regards smoking. You can ban it but then you have to enforce the ban. Extra staff, possibility of more riots and therefore more riot staff. More staff injuries.

they are there because they cant follow rules and have no moral backbone and to be honest most are as thick as a castle wall,rehabilitation is following rules....its as simple as that.

Provide a smoking shelter outside in the yard where tobacco can be purchased and consumed in single measures ie...1 fag at a time,it may help some kick the filthy habit in the long run

Forget about what rules? Prisoners are allowed to smoke in their cells or the exercise yard and that's all. Their cells are classed as their residence.

Sky boxes aren't available in the public sector and the newest console allowed is PS2. Effectively consoles have been disallowed.

From your extensive knowledge of the criminal classes, you've deduced they are thick. prisoners are a cross section of society and some aren't that bright but many are. Bit like fab really!

Perhaps with all the things in the news it would be better just to give all the wrong, evil doers a good talking to and send them home to the live in the same street as you and your ilk.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

It's a fine line to tread though and the pendulum swings first one way then the other. The truth is some approaches work for some and other approaches work for others.

As regards smoking. You can ban it but then you have to enforce the ban. Extra staff, possibility of more riots and therefore more riot staff. More staff injuries.

they are there because they cant follow rules and have no moral backbone and to be honest most are as thick as a castle wall,rehabilitation is following rules....its as simple as that.

Provide a smoking shelter outside in the yard where tobacco can be purchased and consumed in single measures ie...1 fag at a time,it may help some kick the filthy habit in the long run

Forget about what rules? Prisoners are allowed to smoke in their cells or the exercise yard and that's all. Their cells are classed as their residence.

Sky boxes aren't available in the public sector and the newest console allowed is PS2. Effectively consoles have been disallowed.

From your extensive knowledge of the criminal classes, you've deduced they are thick. prisoners are a cross section of society and some aren't that bright but many are. Bit like fab really!

Perhaps with all the things in the news it would be better just to give all the wrong, evil doers a good talking to and send them home to the live in the same street as you and your ilk."

Not sure what you mean by you and your ilk. If you think I'm some sort of apologist then you're reading stuff into my message that's not actually there.

But let's widen this out then. You obviously think you know best, so how would you run jails with the constraints in place such as budgets, laws and best practice? Security considerations, staff safety and the current estate?

Let's get away from simplistic rhetoric and say how you would change things and what benefits they would bring.

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By *ophieslutTV/TS
over a year ago

Central

The tragic outcome from the judgement today, that many prisoners have been convicted for murder for decades, based on an interpretation of the law that was wrong, makes me ever more keen to ensure that the conditions in jail are not part of any punishment.

I hope many of the hundreds or thousands of people who have been in effect condemned as murderers, due to the faulty interpretation of 'joint enterprise' now get to appeal and achieve liberty, subject to not having helped to encourage or assist in murder.

Let them smoke fags.

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By *iewMan
Forum Mod
over a year ago

Angus & Findhorn

can't say I can muster up any interest in what they do.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Despite some very lengthy waffle I haven't spotted a single good argument as to why a prisoner should be permitted to smoke in prison at the expense of the tax payer and prison workers health.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Despite some very lengthy waffle I haven't spotted a single good argument as to why a prisoner should be permitted to smoke in prison at the expense of the tax payer and prison workers health.

At the expense of the tax payer; Could you elaborate further?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

sorry I must have missed when they started to pay for their accommodation!

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

That has no inclination in whether they are smoking at the expense of the tax payer. You implied that their tobacco was payed for by the taxpayer. Hence my confusion with your statement!

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

are they not permitted to spend their prison dole on fags?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

They can spend the minimal wages they earn, approx £12 per week, may vary, on whatever they please.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"They can spend the minimal wages they earn, approx £12 per week, may vary, on whatever they please. "

and where does that minimum wage come from?

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By *ittle_brat_evie!!Woman
over a year ago

evesham

"are they not permitted to spend their prison dole on fags?"

they have their own money to spend in prison, it is not all from the pay they receive for work etc (work that is often done for outside companies and so not all paid for by tax payers)

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

but they are able to spend tax payers money on fags?

I can see no justification for that.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I can see where you are taking this point, however, police officers and soldiers are also payed through the Hm treasury; meaning the tax payers also contribute to their wages.. Are police officers and soldiers not allowed to smoke at the expense of the tax payer?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"are they not permitted to spend their prison dole on fags?

they have their own money to spend in prison, it is not all from the pay they receive for work etc (work that is often done for outside companies and so not all paid for by tax payers)"

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By *edangel_2013Woman
over a year ago

southend

"They can spend the minimal wages they earn, approx £12 per week, may vary, on whatever they please.

and where does that minimum wage come from?"

The companies that employ them.

DHL are big prison employers.

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By *imiUKMan
over a year ago

Hereford

"They can spend the minimal wages they earn, approx £12 per week, may vary, on whatever they please.

and where does that minimum wage come from?

The companies that employ them.

DHL are big prison employers."

You'll soon find that talking sense has no place on this thread.

BURN THEM! BURN THEM ALL!

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I can see where you are taking this point, however, police officers and soldiers are also payed through the Hm treasury; meaning the tax payers also contribute to their wages.. Are police officers and soldiers not allowed to smoke at the expense of the tax payer? "

They haven't given up their civil liberties, therefore it's their right to choose how they spend their money.

Can prisoners buy alcohol?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"but they are able to spend tax payers money on fags?

I can see no justification for that."

They work for it.

or spend their own money that families send them.

I doubt if they banned it you'd see a difference in your wage due to any savings so it just sounds like sour grapes

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By *edangel_2013Woman
over a year ago

southend

"They can spend the minimal wages they earn, approx £12 per week, may vary, on whatever they please.

and where does that minimum wage come from?

The companies that employ them.

DHL are big prison employers.

You'll soon find that talking sense has no place on this thread.

BURN THEM! BURN THEM ALL! "

Ohhh I know!! But it's fun speaking sense to ignorant!

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Some prisons will also employ prisoners to make items for them to sell to the prison staff ie belts, radio pouch, tobacco pouch, coin purse all through leather working.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"but they are able to spend tax payers money on fags?

I can see no justification for that."

By this logic, then benefits shouldn't be able to be spent on fags. Or if you want to take it even further, public sector employees shouldn't be allowed to buy tobacco from their wages.

Both come from tax.......

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

They haven't given up their civil liberties, therefore it's their right to choose how they spend their money.

Can prisoners buy alcohol?"

Only on the black market in there or brew their own of they can get away with it.

my brother made hooch using pizza dough

(it's got raw yeast in it...he worked in the kitchen and they weren't allowed near the neat yeast)

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

This isn't an issue of 'burn them'. This is an issue of the abuse of people's health in what should be a controlled environment.

Could argue that being as most who come out of prison probably can't afford cigarettes, by forcing them off their dependence they're being done a big favour.

What I don't see is any good argument as to why they should be permitted to smoke, let alone pay for them.

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By *ittle_brat_evie!!Woman
over a year ago

evesham

They haven't given up their civil liberties, therefore it's their right to choose how they spend their money.

Can prisoners buy alcohol?"

alcohol is a different substance entirely which has very different effects on people causing higher risks to custodial staff.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"but they are able to spend tax payers money on fags?

I can see no justification for that.

By this logic, then benefits shouldn't be able to be spent on fags. Or if you want to take it even further, public sector employees shouldn't be allowed to buy tobacco from their wages.

Both come from tax......."

erm except one is a free man

and one is a prisoner

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

They haven't given up their civil liberties, therefore it's their right to choose how they spend their money.

Can prisoners buy alcohol?"

It is also a prisoners right to choose how to spend their money. No, they cannot. However, this is due to the influence alcohol has on the mental state of a person whilst d*unk. This would not be a state you would like anybody who is locked up in. It will only serve to exacerbate the situation.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

They haven't given up their civil liberties, therefore it's their right to choose how they spend their money.

Can prisoners buy alcohol?

alcohol is a different substance entirely which has very different effects on people causing higher risks to custodial staff."

like cancer?

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By *imiUKMan
over a year ago

Hereford

"This isn't an issue of 'burn them'. This is an issue of the abuse of people's health in what should be a controlled environment"

Have you read the whole thread?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

They haven't given up their civil liberties, therefore it's their right to choose how they spend their money.

Can prisoners buy alcohol?

I see that. But if one legal substance can be banned, so can another.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"This isn't an issue of 'burn them'. This is an issue of the abuse of people's health in what should be a controlled environment

Have you read the whole thread?"

I tried but it got a bit long winded in the middle

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

They haven't given up their civil liberties, therefore it's their right to choose how they spend their money.

Can prisoners buy alcohol?

I see that. But if one legal substance can be banned, so can another."

can be....but comparing the two would be stupid. They're both very different things

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Alcohol would pose a threat to the security of a jail. That's why it's banned.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

They haven't given up their civil liberties, therefore it's their right to choose how they spend their money.

Can prisoners buy alcohol?

I see that. But if one legal substance can be banned, so can another."

A ban is already being implemented. So, yes you can ban it. From this year, all welshprisons and I believe 4 in the south of England will implement a ban, with the remainder of the136 UK prisons following suit.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

They haven't given up their civil liberties, therefore it's their right to choose how they spend their money.

Can prisoners buy alcohol?

I see that. But if one legal substance can be banned, so can another.

can be....but comparing the two would be stupid. They're both very different things"

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I'm not comparing them - I'm fending off the "prisoners rights" argument being constructed that it's somehow their money to spend as they wish.

Clearly there are already rules in place that mean it isn't their money to spend as they wish making that argument moot.

Once again, I can see no good argument for not banning fags.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Unfortunately there's no fending of "prisoners rights." As humans, they are still humans regardless of what crime they are convicted of, they are entitled to every right that you or I have being a citizen of the U.K. Their punishment is the restriction of the right to freedom.

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By *edangel_2013Woman
over a year ago

southend

"I'm not comparing them - I'm fending off the "prisoners rights" argument being constructed that it's somehow their money to spend as they wish.

Clearly there are already rules in place that mean it isn't their money to spend as they wish making that argument moot.

Once again, I can see no good argument for not banning fags."

Neither are you providing a counter argument.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Unfortunately there's no fending of "prisoners rights." As humans, they are still humans regardless of what crime they are convicted of, they are entitled to every right that you or I have being a citizen of the U.K. Their punishment is the restriction of the right to freedom. "

Agreed - only the "the restriction of the right to freedom" should apply to fags.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I'm not comparing them - I'm fending off the "prisoners rights" argument being constructed that it's somehow their money to spend as they wish.

Clearly there are already rules in place that mean it isn't their money to spend as they wish making that argument moot.

Once again, I can see no good argument for not banning fags.

Neither are you providing a counter argument."

I disagree - there are several above.

Misuse of taxpayers money

Prison workers (and prisoners) health

Rehabilitation to avoid budget issues on leaving prison... they're all above in the previous comments

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Another way to look at it is that if you think prisoners should not be allowed to smoke because they are 'bad people'...well smoking gives you cancer (some people) so it's increasing their risk of cancer so if you think they're bad people then wouldn't you want them all to smoke?...

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By *edangel_2013Woman
over a year ago

southend

"I'm not comparing them - I'm fending off the "prisoners rights" argument being constructed that it's somehow their money to spend as they wish.

Clearly there are already rules in place that mean it isn't their money to spend as they wish making that argument moot.

Once again, I can see no good argument for not banning fags.

Neither are you providing a counter argument.

I disagree - there are several above.

Misuse of taxpayers money

Prison workers (and prisoners) health

Rehabilitation to avoid budget issues on leaving prison... they're all above in the previous comments

But they aren't spending tax payers money. They are spending money they earnt in various ways from any of the various companies that employ them.

Do you report every person you see smoking in a company vehicle?

And why would stopping them smoking be a part of rehabilitation? I'd rather they spent the money on effective rehousing courses than stopping someone have the one luxury that keeps them sane.

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By *ELLONS AND CREAMWoman
over a year ago

stourbridge area

.... have you ever been in prison OP ????

....

.....

Its really not a joking matter ...

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"But they aren't spending tax payers money. They are spending money they earnt in various ways from any of the various companies that employ them.

Do you report every person you see smoking in a company vehicle?

And why would stopping them smoking be a part of rehabilitation? I'd rather they spent the money on effective rehousing courses than stopping someone have the one luxury that keeps them sane."

We covered that in the previous comments too. Apparently it is indeed tax payers money. And even if the prison has been contracted out that's still presumably govt. funded.

Smoking doesn't keep anyone sane.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Another way to look at it is that if you think prisoners should not be allowed to smoke because they are 'bad people'...well smoking gives you cancer (some people) so it's increasing their risk of cancer so if you think they're bad people then wouldn't you want them all to smoke?..."

I err on the side of a ban for precisely the opposite reason. Prisoners health is just as important as anyone else's. You are not allowed to smoke in any other public institution for valid health reasons.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

They smoke outside or in their cells...like some hotels have smoking rooms...it's classed as their own residence

General population isn't a smokey hole...it's smoke free

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

They smoke outside or in their cells...like some hotels have smoking rooms...it's classed as their own residence

General population isn't a smokey hole...it's smoke free "

Yes, I'm aware of that.

There are arguments on both sides and I'm aware that my stance is patriarchal but, on balance, it's certainly worth a trial run. As pointed out previously, a similar ban has worked well in secure hospitals.

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By *ittle_brat_evie!!Woman
over a year ago

evesham

I wouldn't want to inflict cancer on anybody but then I'm nice like that.

Also, the prison service have a duty of care to those in prison and would have to provide health are services to all those who you seem happy to give cancer to.

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By *ittle_brat_evie!!Woman
over a year ago

evesham

"But they aren't spending tax payers money. They are spending money they earnt in various ways from any of the various companies that employ them.

Do you report every person you see smoking in a company vehicle?

And why would stopping them smoking be a part of rehabilitation? I'd rather they spent the money on effective rehousing courses than stopping someone have the one luxury that keeps them sane.

We covered that in the previous comments too. Apparently it is indeed tax payers money. And even if the prison has been contracted out that's still presumably govt. funded.

Smoking doesn't keep anyone sane."

Have you ever smoked? Have you ever been in prison? How do you know what keeps people sane?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

It's a fine line to tread though and the pendulum swings first one way then the other. The truth is some approaches work for some and other approaches work for others.

As regards smoking. You can ban it but then you have to enforce the ban. Extra staff, possibility of more riots and therefore more riot staff. More staff injuries.

they are there because they cant follow rules and have no moral backbone and to be honest most are as thick as a castle wall,rehabilitation is following rules....its as simple as that.

Provide a smoking shelter outside in the yard where tobacco can be purchased and consumed in single measures ie...1 fag at a time,it may help some kick the filthy habit in the long run

Forget about what rules? Prisoners are allowed to smoke in their cells or the exercise yard and that's all. Their cells are classed as their residence.

Sky boxes aren't available in the public sector and the newest console allowed is PS2. Effectively consoles have been disallowed.

From your extensive knowledge of the criminal classes, you've deduced they are thick. prisoners are a cross section of society and some aren't that bright but many are. Bit like fab really!"
The idea being when they are let out of their cells for yard/gym/snooker/social time,and please do not come back with they only get an hour...thats the whole point

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By *ilke0131Couple
over a year ago

Edinburgh

At the risk if offending the pc brigade...

Smoking, like drink-driving or bare-backing is a personal choice. When was the last time you read about the guy who beat his wife/gf/children because he'd had one cigar too many?

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By *rightonsteveMan
over a year ago

Brighton - even Hove!

I think

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By *rightonsteveMan
over a year ago

Brighton - even Hove!

It's time

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By *rightonsteveMan
over a year ago

Brighton - even Hove!

To close the thread

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By *rightonsteveMan
over a year ago

Brighton - even Hove!

Now

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