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"INTERNATIONAL CAPITALISTS A BUNCH OF CUNTS Stop press! In other news... * Bears found to shit in woods * Pope found to be Catholic "Modern slavery isn't found too often in supply chains these days - it's usually ignored by multinationals. This should force open investigations on a larger scale than previously. | |||
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"I've not been keen on Nestle for around 30 years due to their aggressive selling tactics for powdered baby milk in areas with unsafe water. They give out samples calculated to last just long enough for breast milk to dry up so the mothers have no choice but carry on using it." That was the main reason I stopped buying Nestlé products. I didn't realise just how large they are though, assumed Body Shop was a decent company until I learned they were a Nestlé company. | |||
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"I dunno. This is a tough issue. The problem is that these types of practices are exploited by the overwhelming majority of large corporations. The fact that one company comes out and admits to it being a problem then makes them the target of negative emotions and bad press. Perhaps this is more of a general concern. It should remind us all to take more of an interest in where the products we buy come from and what methods are used to allow us to live the life we do today. -Courtney" A cynic would say they exposed it themselves to protect for further civil suits. | |||
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"I've not been keen on Nestle for around 30 years due to their aggressive selling tactics for powdered baby milk in areas with unsafe water. They give out samples calculated to last just long enough for breast milk to dry up so the mothers have no choice but carry on using it. That was the main reason I stopped buying Nestlé products. I didn't realise just how large they are though, assumed Body Shop was a decent company until I learned they were a Nestlé company. " This is the problem with being ethical - the tendrils of international capital stretch everywhere. Unless you go live on an island somewhere and become totally self-sufficient, you're fucked. But not as fucked as those poor beggers who toiled in degrading situations to bring you you food, clothes... whatever. It's not very good. | |||
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"I dunno. This is a tough issue. The problem is that these types of practices are exploited by the overwhelming majority of large corporations. The fact that one company comes out and admits to it being a problem then makes them the target of negative emotions and bad press. Perhaps this is more of a general concern. It should remind us all to take more of an interest in where the products we buy come from and what methods are used to allow us to live the life we do today. -Courtney A cynic would say they exposed it themselves to protect for further civil suits. " Well of course. That they had a self interest in their voluntary exposure is to be expected. But it doesn't absolve the fact that these problems have more to do with our current economic system than with the specific company itself. | |||
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"I've not been keen on Nestle for around 30 years due to their aggressive selling tactics for powdered baby milk in areas with unsafe water. They give out samples calculated to last just long enough for breast milk to dry up so the mothers have no choice but carry on using it. That was the main reason I stopped buying Nestlé products. I didn't realise just how large they are though, assumed Body Shop was a decent company until I learned they were a Nestlé company. This is the problem with being ethical - the tendrils of international capital stretch everywhere. Unless you go live on an island somewhere and become totally self-sufficient, you're fucked. But not as fucked as those poor beggers who toiled in degrading situations to bring you you food, clothes... whatever. It's not very good. " I think it's possible to live without purchasing from companies that use forced labour. | |||
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"I remember reading somewhere Nescafé giving free powdered milk to people in Africa even though the people had no proper fresh water to make it with and they were making milk with coco cola. "This is true. They gave powdered milk for long enough periods to stop the mothers lactating, forcing them to buy it at a higher price when they had no choice. It was also the cause of malnutrition as they didn't educate properly on the necessity of sterile water, and also the amounts a baby needs. | |||
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" The question of whether we allow our morals to dictate what products we use/consume is an interesting one. " Is it! What exactly are the arguments in support of buying from companies that violate your moral standards? | |||
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"No, never liked anything nestle make, their choc is gritty , cheap and beyond vile . L'Oreal are amongst the biggest animal abusers re cosmetic testing, don't use their products (or their subsidiaries either). Not surprising, nestle were probably fully aware of the illegal child labour but will play ignorant and blame regional mismanagement.. Or something. Incidentally.. How disgusting is cadburys chocolate Now since Kraft / mondelez took over?. Kraft have turned it to....cheap tasting waxy crayola.. Krap!!" Agree - american chocolate tastes absolutely horrible if you grew up on European brands! Hersheys is proper minging innit | |||
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" The question of whether we allow our morals to dictate what products we use/consume is an interesting one. Is it! What exactly are the arguments in support of buying from companies that violate your moral standards? " Price, availability, greater range of choices to name a few. | |||
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"I remember reading somewhere Nescafé giving free powdered milk to people in Africa even though the people had no proper fresh water to make it with and they were making milk with coco cola.
This is true. They gave powdered milk for long enough periods to stop the mothers lactating, forcing them to buy it at a higher price when they had no choice. It was also the cause of malnutrition as they didn't educate properly on the necessity of sterile water, and also the amounts a baby needs. "Yes, that's it. Evil under the sun. | |||
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" The question of whether we allow our morals to dictate what products we use/consume is an interesting one. Is it! What exactly are the arguments in support of buying from companies that violate your moral standards? Price, availability, greater range of choices to name a few. " If price means you'd put aside your moral convictions then I'd suggest they weren't very strong in the first place. People are welcome to have a different views on what is moral and isn't, but it's a bit laughable to complain about companies and still buy their non-essential products. In my opinion. | |||
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" The question of whether we allow our morals to dictate what products we use/consume is an interesting one. Is it! What exactly are the arguments in support of buying from companies that violate your moral standards? " How simple is it to avoid using companies that in some fashion offend your morals? The post by diamond joe is quite helpful in this regard. The forum is full of threads concerning austerity measures and people with very little being pushed to their limit. Yet we see a multi national like google reaching a deal with the Revenue to pay a fraction of what they do. Can you not help but think that if the all the multinationals paid what they owed, such cuts would not be necessary. | |||
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" The question of whether we allow our morals to dictate what products we use/consume is an interesting one. Is it! What exactly are the arguments in support of buying from companies that violate your moral standards? Price, availability, greater range of choices to name a few. If price means you'd put aside your moral convictions then I'd suggest they weren't very strong in the first place. People are welcome to have a different views on what is moral and isn't, but it's a bit laughable to complain about companies and still buy their non-essential products. In my opinion. " I was giving you the arguments for. I'm lucky enough to not have to worry about the cost of groceries, I buy consciously. | |||
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" The question of whether we allow our morals to dictate what products we use/consume is an interesting one. Is it! What exactly are the arguments in support of buying from companies that violate your moral standards? How simple is it to avoid using companies that in some fashion offend your morals? The post by diamond joe is quite helpful in this regard. The forum is full of threads concerning austerity measures and people with very little being pushed to their limit. Yet we see a multi national like google reaching a deal with the Revenue to pay a fraction of what they do. Can you not help but think that if the all the multinationals paid what they owed, such cuts would not be necessary. " This is somewhat incomplete, my apologies. My point is, do you stop using google because they pay little tax? Do you trade in your Volkswagen because they cheat the system? Sadly I think if you avoided every entity which in some fashion morally offended you, then you would not anyone to use. | |||
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" The question of whether we allow our morals to dictate what products we use/consume is an interesting one. Is it! What exactly are the arguments in support of buying from companies that violate your moral standards? How simple is it to avoid using companies that in some fashion offend your morals? The post by diamond joe is quite helpful in this regard. The forum is full of threads concerning austerity measures and people with very little being pushed to their limit. Yet we see a multi national like google reaching a deal with the Revenue to pay a fraction of what they do. Can you not help but think that if the all the multinationals paid what they owed, such cuts would not be necessary. This is somewhat incomplete, my apologies. My point is, do you stop using google because they pay little tax? Do you trade in your Volkswagen because they cheat the system? Sadly I think if you avoided every entity which in some fashion morally offended you, then you would not anyone to use. " Cheating the system and using forced labour are so very different in my opinion. Incomparable. | |||
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" The question of whether we allow our morals to dictate what products we use/consume is an interesting one. Is it! What exactly are the arguments in support of buying from companies that violate your moral standards? How simple is it to avoid using companies that in some fashion offend your morals? The post by diamond joe is quite helpful in this regard. The forum is full of threads concerning austerity measures and people with very little being pushed to their limit. Yet we see a multi national like google reaching a deal with the Revenue to pay a fraction of what they do. Can you not help but think that if the all the multinationals paid what they owed, such cuts would not be necessary. This is somewhat incomplete, my apologies. My point is, do you stop using google because they pay little tax? Do you trade in your Volkswagen because they cheat the system? Sadly I think if you avoided every entity which in some fashion morally offended you, then you would not anyone to use. Cheating the system and using forced labour are so very different in my opinion. Incomparable. " I don't disagree they are different but I was replying to a query on my statement that it is an interesting one as to whether we allow our morals to dictate the products we use In terms of the post, would forced labour make me re-consider using such an entity yes. But on a bigger scale, it would be difficult to live every day by a moral code. | |||
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" Yet we see a multi national like google reaching a deal with the Revenue to pay a fraction of what they do. Can you not help but think that if the all the multinationals paid what they owed, such cuts would not be necessary. " Sorry but that's nonsense. In 2014 HMRC estimate the tax gap to be £34bn, the deficit in 2010 when the cuts started was £170.8bn. That's deficit, not debt. | |||
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" The question of whether we allow our morals to dictate what products we use/consume is an interesting one. Is it! What exactly are the arguments in support of buying from companies that violate your moral standards? Price, availability, greater range of choices to name a few. If price means you'd put aside your moral convictions then I'd suggest they weren't very strong in the first place. People are welcome to have a different views on what is moral and isn't, but it's a bit laughable to complain about companies and still buy their non-essential products. In my opinion. I was giving you the arguments for. I'm lucky enough to not have to worry about the cost of groceries, I buy consciously. " If it's essential goods then I get it, for chocolate and shit the truth is that most consumers just don't care. In my opinion. | |||
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" Yet we see a multi national like google reaching a deal with the Revenue to pay a fraction of what they do. Can you not help but think that if the all the multinationals paid what they owed, such cuts would not be necessary. Sorry but that's nonsense. In 2014 HMRC estimate the tax gap to be £34bn, the deficit in 2010 when the cuts started was £170.8bn. That's deficit, not debt. " I accept it would not resolve the deficit but no one can dispute that multi nationals being held to account would at least aid the situation. The observation I am making is how far do we go in a day to day lives to alter the same by reference to a moral code? | |||
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" Yet we see a multi national like google reaching a deal with the Revenue to pay a fraction of what they do. Can you not help but think that if the all the multinationals paid what they owed, such cuts would not be necessary. Sorry but that's nonsense. In 2014 HMRC estimate the tax gap to be £34bn, the deficit in 2010 when the cuts started was £170.8bn. That's deficit, not debt. I accept it would not resolve the deficit but no one can dispute that multi nationals being held to account would at least aid the situation. The observation I am making is how far do we go in a day to day lives to alter the same by reference to a moral code? " Of course it would help, I'm not defending tax evasion. I'm just saying that there's no easy fix to our economic problems. Real government spending went up enormously under new Labour, that trend could not continue indefinately! In absolute terms, spending continued to rise after 2010 too. | |||
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" Yet we see a multi national like google reaching a deal with the Revenue to pay a fraction of what they do. Can you not help but think that if the all the multinationals paid what they owed, such cuts would not be necessary. Sorry but that's nonsense. In 2014 HMRC estimate the tax gap to be £34bn, the deficit in 2010 when the cuts started was £170.8bn. That's deficit, not debt. I accept it would not resolve the deficit but no one can dispute that multi nationals being held to account would at least aid the situation. The observation I am making is how far do we go in a day to day lives to alter the same by reference to a moral code? Of course it would help, I'm not defending tax evasion. I'm just saying that there's no easy fix to our economic problems. Real government spending went up enormously under new Labour, that trend could not continue indefinately! In absolute terms, spending continued to rise after 2010 too. " I'm trying to avoid too much political discussion so as prevent the main purpose of the thread being lost. I just take the view that it is difficult to live day to day without utilising some product or system which has been created/manufactured/distributed by an entity which has offended our morals. I again would repeat I acknowledge the big differences between forced labour and tax efficiency/avoidance. | |||
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" Yet we see a multi national like google reaching a deal with the Revenue to pay a fraction of what they do. Can you not help but think that if the all the multinationals paid what they owed, such cuts would not be necessary. Sorry but that's nonsense. In 2014 HMRC estimate the tax gap to be £34bn, the deficit in 2010 when the cuts started was £170.8bn. That's deficit, not debt. I accept it would not resolve the deficit but no one can dispute that multi nationals being held to account would at least aid the situation. The observation I am making is how far do we go in a day to day lives to alter the same by reference to a moral code? Of course it would help, I'm not defending tax evasion. I'm just saying that there's no easy fix to our economic problems. Real government spending went up enormously under new Labour, that trend could not continue indefinately! In absolute terms, spending continued to rise after 2010 too. I'm trying to avoid too much political discussion so as prevent the main purpose of the thread being lost. I just take the view that it is difficult to live day to day without utilising some product or system which has been created/manufactured/distributed by an entity which has offended our morals. I again would repeat I acknowledge the big differences between forced labour and tax efficiency/avoidance." Honestly, I try reasonably hard to avoid companies I deem unethical by my own standards. The only area I seriously struggle with is clothes. Food I find pretty easy personally. | |||
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"I wonder who is posting from their iPhone? http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/oct/14/forced-student-labour-china-apple" This is further to my point above. There is modern slavery in the production of cocoa beans, in the making of clothing, in fishing, and in countless other industries - Industries that supply the companies we buy everyday products from. And we don't even realize it. So in this case, picking out a few examples is fruitless. It is notable, though, that many anti-slavery campaigns actually don't support boycotting the companies that engage in these practices because boycotts act similarly to sanctions and tend to hurt the economies that are already poor, thus exasperating the problems and circumstances that lead to forced labor in the first place. So then, what is to be done when our entire economic framework is built on these practices? I dunno. 
-Courtney | |||
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"I wonder who is posting from their iPhone? http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/oct/14/forced-student-labour-china-apple" Jeremy Hunt's vision of our future,as he said we should adopt the Chinese work ethic. | |||
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" The question of whether we allow our morals to dictate what products we use/consume is an interesting one. Is it! What exactly are the arguments in support of buying from companies that violate your moral standards? How simple is it to avoid using companies that in some fashion offend your morals? The post by diamond joe is quite helpful in this regard. The forum is full of threads concerning austerity measures and people with very little being pushed to their limit. Yet we see a multi national like google reaching a deal with the Revenue to pay a fraction of what they do. Can you not help but think that if the all the multinationals paid what they owed, such cuts would not be necessary. " You can avoid buying products that don't meet your own ethical / moral standards but it takes research & time. Years ago I didn't buy from companies which had awful track records of animal cruelty / animal testing, GSK being one of them. It's hard but not impossible if that's what you believe in. | |||
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" The question of whether we allow our morals to dictate what products we use/consume is an interesting one. Is it! What exactly are the arguments in support of buying from companies that violate your moral standards? How simple is it to avoid using companies that in some fashion offend your morals? The post by diamond joe is quite helpful in this regard. The forum is full of threads concerning austerity measures and people with very little being pushed to their limit. Yet we see a multi national like google reaching a deal with the Revenue to pay a fraction of what they do. Can you not help but think that if the all the multinationals paid what they owed, such cuts would not be necessary. You can avoid buying products that don't meet your own ethical / moral standards but it takes research & time. Years ago I didn't buy from companies which had awful track records of animal cruelty / animal testing, GSK being one of them. It's hard but not impossible if that's what you believe in."  | |||
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"With the march of Corporate Communism (whereby large conglomerates attempt to create monopolies by destroying or buying the opposition) it can be difficult to avoid buying from concerns like 'nessells' as they have their grubby, greasy big fingers in so many pies. I went off them after they bought out Rowntrees and despite the promise of no job losses made 2000 redundant in York and later a further 645 after moving production of Smarties to Hamburg." Corporate communism! I like that, another term for bad regulation. Monopolies are illegal if regulators do their job properly... oligopolies can be pretty shit too though | |||
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"http://www.theguardian.com/sustainable-business/2016/feb/01/nestle-slavery-thailand-fighting-child-labour-lawsuit-ivory-coast Does this put you off buying stuff from them and their companies/joint ventures? They're also shareholders of L'Oreal (30%). " As always, the news headline writer has failed to read the story. The company are not fighting off a child labour lawsuit in Ivory Coast but are challenging liability for it in the Supreme Court. In other words, they do not accept they are liable to pay damages and fines. We don't know what the grounds are. Maybe they say there is/was no child labour involved or that another company is liable. They have a fiduciary duty to their shareholders to do that. I would like to see more information. On the first subject, slavery and forced labour in Thailand, it seems it was the company's own investigations that uncovered it. I'm sure that if there is child labour involved in Ivory Coast they will stop sourcing from there. And no, it doesn't put me off. I have no idea which companies are using illegal labour and which are not. I hear today that care companies are paying for the living wage by removing unsocial hours payments, making staff pay for their own CRB checks and do more work in the time. So, what have L'oreal done wrong. | |||
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"There are ethical ways to live and bank ...you just have to try harder and accept a different type of life style" I agree | |||
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"http://www.theguardian.com/sustainable-business/2016/feb/01/nestle-slavery-thailand-fighting-child-labour-lawsuit-ivory-coast Does this put you off buying stuff from them and their companies/joint ventures? They're also shareholders of L'Oreal (30%). As always, the news headline writer has failed to read the story. The company are not fighting off a child labour lawsuit in Ivory Coast but are challenging liability for it in the Supreme Court. In other words, they do not accept they are liable to pay damages and fines. We don't know what the grounds are. Maybe they say there is/was no child labour involved or that another company is liable. They have a fiduciary duty to their shareholders to do that. I would like to see more information. On the first subject, slavery and forced labour in Thailand, it seems it was the company's own investigations that uncovered it. I'm sure that if there is child labour involved in Ivory Coast they will stop sourcing from there. And no, it doesn't put me off. I have no idea which companies are using illegal labour and which are not. I hear today that care companies are paying for the living wage by removing unsocial hours payments, making staff pay for their own CRB checks and do more work in the time. So, what have L'oreal done wrong. " The title is the headline. You needn't worry about me having read the article. Auditors have found evidence of child labour in the Ivory Coast. "The US Supreme Court has rejected a bid by three of the world’s biggest food producers to throw out a lawsuit holding them accountable in a landmark child slavery case." Also - Google the auditor reports. It's easily found and freely available. Nestlé acknowledge the use of child labour in the Ivory Coast yet quite simply don't think they can do anything to stop it. I don't believe that's a good enough response so I'd rather not spend my money on Nestlé products. L'Oreal are part owned by Nestlé. However, it seems that you idolise Nestlé and can't bear to hear the company criticised so I won't bother anymore. | |||
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"Life's too short...." To stop funding child and forced labour? That seems like a flippant and callous stance to take. | |||
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"Life's too short.... To stop funding child and forced labour? That seems like a flippant and callous stance to take. " Life isn't too short for those working a factory line for 12 hours a day, 6.5 days a week. | |||
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"Life's too short.... To stop funding child and forced labour? That seems like a flippant and callous stance to take. Life isn't too short for those working a factory line for 12 hours a day, 6.5 days a week. " True, dat | |||
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"Get real it is the way of the world" Do you also accept that discrimination against cross-dressers is also the way of the world? | |||
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"I wonder who is posting from their iPhone? http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/oct/14/forced-student-labour-china-apple Jeremy Hunt's vision of our future,as he said we should adopt the Chinese work ethic. " I can see future student nurses now... | |||
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"Get real it is the way of the world Do you also accept that discrimination against cross-dressers is also the way of the world? " Unfortunatly yes I exept it because it is part of the human condition | |||
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"Get real it is the way of the world Do you also accept that discrimination against cross-dressers is also the way of the world? Unfortunatly yes I exept it because it is part of the human condition" If everyone was as pessimistic as you then we'd all be eating gruel inside huts insulated with pig shit in order to sustain a feudal system. | |||
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"Get real it is the way of the world Do you also accept that discrimination against cross-dressers is also the way of the world? Unfortunatly yes I exept it because it is part of the human condition If everyone was as pessimistic as you then we'd all be eating gruel inside huts insulated with pig shit in order to sustain a feudal system. " Lol I am just realistic we all have faults,and we are only one step above a feudal system look around you exept it and try to make a little corner beautifull and hope the rest follow. | |||
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"Get real it is the way of the world Do you also accept that discrimination against cross-dressers is also the way of the world? Unfortunatly yes I exept it because it is part of the human condition If everyone was as pessimistic as you then we'd all be eating gruel inside huts insulated with pig shit in order to sustain a feudal system. Lol I am just realistic we all have faults,and we are only one step above a feudal system look around you exept it and try to make a little corner beautifull and hope the rest follow." Change is definitely doable, it just takes effort to take the first few steps. | |||
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"Get real it is the way of the world Do you also accept that discrimination against cross-dressers is also the way of the world? Unfortunatly yes I exept it because it is part of the human condition If everyone was as pessimistic as you then we'd all be eating gruel inside huts insulated with pig shit in order to sustain a feudal system. Lol I am just realistic we all have faults,and we are only one step above a feudal system look around you exept it and try to make a little corner beautifull and hope the rest follow." No offence but you don't sound like much of a student of history if you think we're just "one step above a feudal system". I'd love to send you on a week long holiday to 1066. Fundamentally, the working conditions we are scorning on this thread would have been common place in this country ~150 years ago. We fixed it here, there's no fundamental reason other countries can't do the same. | |||
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"Get real it is the way of the world Do you also accept that discrimination against cross-dressers is also the way of the world? Unfortunatly yes I exept it because it is part of the human condition If everyone was as pessimistic as you then we'd all be eating gruel inside huts insulated with pig shit in order to sustain a feudal system. Lol I am just realistic we all have faults,and we are only one step above a feudal system look around you exept it and try to make a little corner beautifull and hope the rest follow. No offence but you don't sound like much of a student of history if you think we're just "one step above a feudal system". I'd love to send you on a week long holiday to 1066. Fundamentally, the working conditions we are scorning on this thread would have been common place in this country ~150 years ago. We fixed it here, there's no fundamental reason other countries can't do the same. " Modern slavery, traditional slavery, and feudal serfdom are different things and have different causes. It's not as simple as saying "we fixed it and so should you." The economic conditions and the cultural history that result in each are too different to compare. In my opinion. Does it need to change? Yes. Can it change? Yes. But how? -Courtney | |||
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"Get real it is the way of the world Do you also accept that discrimination against cross-dressers is also the way of the world? Unfortunatly yes I exept it because it is part of the human condition If everyone was as pessimistic as you then we'd all be eating gruel inside huts insulated with pig shit in order to sustain a feudal system. Lol I am just realistic we all have faults,and we are only one step above a feudal system look around you exept it and try to make a little corner beautifull and hope the rest follow. No offence but you don't sound like much of a student of history if you think we're just "one step above a feudal system". I'd love to send you on a week long holiday to 1066. Fundamentally, the working conditions we are scorning on this thread would have been common place in this country ~150 years ago. We fixed it here, there's no fundamental reason other countries can't do the same. Modern slavery, traditional slavery, and feudal serfdom are different things and have different causes. It's not as simple as saying "we fixed it and so should you." The economic conditions and the cultural history that result in each are too different to compare. In my opinion. Does it need to change? Yes. Can it change? Yes. But how? -Courtney " And you call yourself a Bernie Sanders fan! I don't think the shit conditions of victorian workhouses are all that different to the Chinese factories making iphones. The answer involves a combination of laws, productivity, trade and luck. All of which will happen faster if more people show an interest in consumer activism. | |||
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"Get real it is the way of the world Do you also accept that discrimination against cross-dressers is also the way of the world? Unfortunatly yes I exept it because it is part of the human condition If everyone was as pessimistic as you then we'd all be eating gruel inside huts insulated with pig shit in order to sustain a feudal system. Lol I am just realistic we all have faults,and we are only one step above a feudal system look around you exept it and try to make a little corner beautifull and hope the rest follow. No offence but you don't sound like much of a student of history if you think we're just "one step above a feudal system". I'd love to send you on a week long holiday to 1066. Fundamentally, the working conditions we are scorning on this thread would have been common place in this country ~150 years ago. We fixed it here, there's no fundamental reason other countries can't do the same. Modern slavery, traditional slavery, and feudal serfdom are different things and have different causes. It's not as simple as saying "we fixed it and so should you." The economic conditions and the cultural history that result in each are too different to compare. In my opinion. Does it need to change? Yes. Can it change? Yes. But how? -Courtney And you call yourself a Bernie Sanders fan! I don't think the shit conditions of victorian workhouses are all that different to the Chinese factories making iphones. The answer involves a combination of laws, productivity, trade and luck. All of which will happen faster if more people show an interest in consumer activism. " Leave Bernie out of it 
No, I'm not saying there aren't similarities, obviously. I'm saying it isn't simple. There are too many big interests at work to simply pass a law and make something happen. In many of the countries where this is going on, the governments are in bed with the very corporations imposing these conditions. And very often the prospect of a very shit "job" is the only prospect there is.
Globalisation has added a whole new dimension to these issued as well. It is something that wasn't as big a concern back when Europe was dealing with its slavery/serfdom issues.
I agree that it is possible to change and that it should happen. I just have yet to hear a viable solution and consumer activism or boycotting of companies isn't necessarily going to fix the issue. It could leave a vacuum of sorts, or have countless other repercussions that we haven't thought about yet (hence my previous statement on the thread about many anti-slavery campaigns not supporting such action).
-Courtney | |||
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"Get real it is the way of the world Do you also accept that discrimination against cross-dressers is also the way of the world? Unfortunatly yes I exept it because it is part of the human condition If everyone was as pessimistic as you then we'd all be eating gruel inside huts insulated with pig shit in order to sustain a feudal system. Lol I am just realistic we all have faults,and we are only one step above a feudal system look around you exept it and try to make a little corner beautifull and hope the rest follow. No offence but you don't sound like much of a student of history if you think we're just "one step above a feudal system". I'd love to send you on a week long holiday to 1066. Fundamentally, the working conditions we are scorning on this thread would have been common place in this country ~150 years ago. We fixed it here, there's no fundamental reason other countries can't do the same. Modern slavery, traditional slavery, and feudal serfdom are different things and have different causes. It's not as simple as saying "we fixed it and so should you." The economic conditions and the cultural history that result in each are too different to compare. In my opinion. Does it need to change? Yes. Can it change? Yes. But how? -Courtney And you call yourself a Bernie Sanders fan! I don't think the shit conditions of victorian workhouses are all that different to the Chinese factories making iphones. The answer involves a combination of laws, productivity, trade and luck. All of which will happen faster if more people show an interest in consumer activism. Leave Bernie out of it
No, I'm not saying there aren't similarities, obviously. I'm saying it isn't simple. There are too many big interests at work to simply pass a law and make something happen. In many of the countries where this is going on, the governments are in bed with the very corporations imposing these conditions. And very often the prospect of a very shit "job" is the only prospect there is.
Globalisation has added a whole new dimension to these issued as well. It is something that wasn't as big a concern back when Europe was dealing with its slavery/serfdom issues.
I agree that it is possible to change and that it should happen. I just have yet to hear a viable solution and consumer activism or boycotting of companies isn't necessarily going to fix the issue. It could leave a vacuum of sorts, or have countless other repercussions that we haven't thought about yet (hence my previous statement on the thread about many anti-slavery campaigns not supporting such action).
-Courtney "Bottom line is that historically speaking the Chinese have been richer than Britain by far so it's really not strange to expect them to regain that status. Naturally we all remember Emperor Qianlong (1735-1796) who cancelled the annual tax on 4 occasions because he ran out of space in the vaults to store all the inconvient coin. China only became a cesspool because the later Qing dynasty pursued a policy of economic isolation (also green party policy by the way) and then they turned to communism to revive their economy, which is like turning to crack cocaine to get off an alcohol addiction. Thankfully someone called Deng ShaoPing had the balls to stop the madness and set China on its path back to prosperity where it traditionally was. So in other words, at least in the case of China, we're talking about a return to business as usual rather than a radical change of the culture. | |||
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"Bottom line is that historically speaking the Chinese have been richer than Britain by far so it's really not strange to expect them to regain that status. Naturally we all remember Emperor Qianlong (1735-1796) who cancelled the annual tax on 4 occasions because he ran out of space in the vaults to store all the inconvient coin. China only became a cesspool because the later Qing dynasty pursued a policy of economic isolation (also green party policy by the way) and then they turned to communism to revive their economy, which is like turning to crack cocaine to get off an alcohol addiction. Thankfully someone called Deng ShaoPing had the balls to stop the madness and set China on its path back to prosperity where it traditionally was. So in other words, at least in the case of China, we're talking about a return to business as usual rather than a radical change of the culture. " I bet your Marxist dialectic gets all the chicks | |||
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"Get real it is the way of the world Do you also accept that discrimination against cross-dressers is also the way of the world? Unfortunatly yes I exept it because it is part of the human condition If everyone was as pessimistic as you then we'd all be eating gruel inside huts insulated with pig shit in order to sustain a feudal system. Lol I am just realistic we all have faults,and we are only one step above a feudal system look around you exept it and try to make a little corner beautifull and hope the rest follow. No offence but you don't sound like much of a student of history if you think we're just "one step above a feudal system". I'd love to send you on a week long holiday to 1066. Fundamentally, the working conditions we are scorning on this thread would have been common place in this country ~150 years ago. We fixed it here, there's no fundamental reason other countries can't do the same. Modern slavery, traditional slavery, and feudal serfdom are different things and have different causes. It's not as simple as saying "we fixed it and so should you." The economic conditions and the cultural history that result in each are too different to compare. In my opinion. Does it need to change? Yes. Can it change? Yes. But how? -Courtney And you call yourself a Bernie Sanders fan! I don't think the shit conditions of victorian workhouses are all that different to the Chinese factories making iphones. The answer involves a combination of laws, productivity, trade and luck. All of which will happen faster if more people show an interest in consumer activism. Leave Bernie out of it
No, I'm not saying there aren't similarities, obviously. I'm saying it isn't simple. There are too many big interests at work to simply pass a law and make something happen. In many of the countries where this is going on, the governments are in bed with the very corporations imposing these conditions. And very often the prospect of a very shit "job" is the only prospect there is.
Globalisation has added a whole new dimension to these issued as well. It is something that wasn't as big a concern back when Europe was dealing with its slavery/serfdom issues.
I agree that it is possible to change and that it should happen. I just have yet to hear a viable solution and consumer activism or boycotting of companies isn't necessarily going to fix the issue. It could leave a vacuum of sorts, or have countless other repercussions that we haven't thought about yet (hence my previous statement on the thread about many anti-slavery campaigns not supporting such action).
-Courtney
Bottom line is that historically speaking the Chinese have been richer than Britain by far so it's really not strange to expect them to regain that status.
Naturally we all remember Emperor Qianlong (1735-1796) who cancelled the annual tax on 4 occasions because he ran out of space in the vaults to store all the inconvient coin. China only became a cesspool because the later Qing dynasty pursued a policy of economic isolation (also green party policy by the way) and then they turned to communism to revive their economy, which is like turning to crack cocaine to get off an alcohol addiction. Thankfully someone called Deng ShaoPing had the balls to stop the madness and set China on its path back to prosperity where it traditionally was.
So in other words, at least in the case of China, we're talking about a return to business as usual rather than a radical change of the culture. "Bs. Chinas economy is built on slave/sweatshop labour and low regulations and the singular will of a politic elite.. It isn't a beacon for other countries looking for new models to construct an exciting around Their wealth is basically built around exploitation, Human Rights abuse and pollution.. What a ridiculous misnomer.. | |||
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"Bottom line is that historically speaking the Chinese have been richer than Britain by far so it's really not strange to expect them to regain that status. Naturally we all remember Emperor Qianlong (1735-1796) who cancelled the annual tax on 4 occasions because he ran out of space in the vaults to store all the inconvient coin. China only became a cesspool because the later Qing dynasty pursued a policy of economic isolation (also green party policy by the way) and then they turned to communism to revive their economy, which is like turning to crack cocaine to get off an alcohol addiction. Thankfully someone called Deng ShaoPing had the balls to stop the madness and set China on its path back to prosperity where it traditionally was. So in other words, at least in the case of China, we're talking about a return to business as usual rather than a radical change of the culture. I bet your Marxist dialectic gets all the chicks "We all know that the only reason men get into left wing politics is for the chicks. Usually at university when they have a private bedroom for the first time in their life... | |||
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"Get real it is the way of the world Do you also accept that discrimination against cross-dressers is also the way of the world? Unfortunatly yes I exept it because it is part of the human condition If everyone was as pessimistic as you then we'd all be eating gruel inside huts insulated with pig shit in order to sustain a feudal system. Lol I am just realistic we all have faults,and we are only one step above a feudal system look around you exept it and try to make a little corner beautifull and hope the rest follow. No offence but you don't sound like much of a student of history if you think we're just "one step above a feudal system". I'd love to send you on a week long holiday to 1066. Fundamentally, the working conditions we are scorning on this thread would have been common place in this country ~150 years ago. We fixed it here, there's no fundamental reason other countries can't do the same. Modern slavery, traditional slavery, and feudal serfdom are different things and have different causes. It's not as simple as saying "we fixed it and so should you." The economic conditions and the cultural history that result in each are too different to compare. In my opinion. Does it need to change? Yes. Can it change? Yes. But how? -Courtney And you call yourself a Bernie Sanders fan! I don't think the shit conditions of victorian workhouses are all that different to the Chinese factories making iphones. The answer involves a combination of laws, productivity, trade and luck. All of which will happen faster if more people show an interest in consumer activism. Leave Bernie out of it
No, I'm not saying there aren't similarities, obviously. I'm saying it isn't simple. There are too many big interests at work to simply pass a law and make something happen. In many of the countries where this is going on, the governments are in bed with the very corporations imposing these conditions. And very often the prospect of a very shit "job" is the only prospect there is.
Globalisation has added a whole new dimension to these issued as well. It is something that wasn't as big a concern back when Europe was dealing with its slavery/serfdom issues.
I agree that it is possible to change and that it should happen. I just have yet to hear a viable solution and consumer activism or boycotting of companies isn't necessarily going to fix the issue. It could leave a vacuum of sorts, or have countless other repercussions that we haven't thought about yet (hence my previous statement on the thread about many anti-slavery campaigns not supporting such action).
-Courtney
Bottom line is that historically speaking the Chinese have been richer than Britain by far so it's really not strange to expect them to regain that status.
Naturally we all remember Emperor Qianlong (1735-1796) who cancelled the annual tax on 4 occasions because he ran out of space in the vaults to store all the inconvient coin. China only became a cesspool because the later Qing dynasty pursued a policy of economic isolation (also green party policy by the way) and then they turned to communism to revive their economy, which is like turning to crack cocaine to get off an alcohol addiction. Thankfully someone called Deng ShaoPing had the balls to stop the madness and set China on its path back to prosperity where it traditionally was.
So in other words, at least in the case of China, we're talking about a return to business as usual rather than a radical change of the culture.
Bs. Chinas economy is built on slave/sweatshop labour and low regulations and the singular will of a politic elite.. It isn't a beacon for other countries looking for new models to construct an exciting around
Their wealth is basically built around exploitation, Human Rights abuse and pollution.. What a ridiculous misnomer..
"Clearly you haven't been. | |||
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"I bet your Marxist dialectic gets all the chicks
We all know that the only reason men get into left wing politics is for the chicks. Usually at university when they have a private bedroom for the first time in their life... "I picked up an American millionaire (amongst others) with my schtick. I highly recommend it. | |||
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"I bet your Marxist dialectic gets all the chicks
We all know that the only reason men get into left wing politics is for the chicks. Usually at university when they have a private bedroom for the first time in their life...
I picked up an American millionaire (amongst others) with my schtick.
I highly recommend it. "Then there was that American chick I insulted in to bed... Gaaawd! | |||
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"Get real it is the way of the world Do you also accept that discrimination against cross-dressers is also the way of the world? Unfortunatly yes I exept it because it is part of the human condition If everyone was as pessimistic as you then we'd all be eating gruel inside huts insulated with pig shit in order to sustain a feudal system. Lol I am just realistic we all have faults,and we are only one step above a feudal system look around you exept it and try to make a little corner beautifull and hope the rest follow. No offence but you don't sound like much of a student of history if you think we're just "one step above a feudal system". I'd love to send you on a week long holiday to 1066. Fundamentally, the working conditions we are scorning on this thread would have been common place in this country ~150 years ago. We fixed it here, there's no fundamental reason other countries can't do the same. Modern slavery, traditional slavery, and feudal serfdom are different things and have different causes. It's not as simple as saying "we fixed it and so should you." The economic conditions and the cultural history that result in each are too different to compare. In my opinion. Does it need to change? Yes. Can it change? Yes. But how? -Courtney And you call yourself a Bernie Sanders fan! I don't think the shit conditions of victorian workhouses are all that different to the Chinese factories making iphones. The answer involves a combination of laws, productivity, trade and luck. All of which will happen faster if more people show an interest in consumer activism. Leave Bernie out of it
No, I'm not saying there aren't similarities, obviously. I'm saying it isn't simple. There are too many big interests at work to simply pass a law and make something happen. In many of the countries where this is going on, the governments are in bed with the very corporations imposing these conditions. And very often the prospect of a very shit "job" is the only prospect there is.
Globalisation has added a whole new dimension to these issued as well. It is something that wasn't as big a concern back when Europe was dealing with its slavery/serfdom issues.
I agree that it is possible to change and that it should happen. I just have yet to hear a viable solution and consumer activism or boycotting of companies isn't necessarily going to fix the issue. It could leave a vacuum of sorts, or have countless other repercussions that we haven't thought about yet (hence my previous statement on the thread about many anti-slavery campaigns not supporting such action).
-Courtney
Bottom line is that historically speaking the Chinese have been richer than Britain by far so it's really not strange to expect them to regain that status.
Naturally we all remember Emperor Qianlong (1735-1796) who cancelled the annual tax on 4 occasions because he ran out of space in the vaults to store all the inconvient coin. China only became a cesspool because the later Qing dynasty pursued a policy of economic isolation (also green party policy by the way) and then they turned to communism to revive their economy, which is like turning to crack cocaine to get off an alcohol addiction. Thankfully someone called Deng ShaoPing had the balls to stop the madness and set China on its path back to prosperity where it traditionally was.
So in other words, at least in the case of China, we're talking about a return to business as usual rather than a radical change of the culture.
Bs. Chinas economy is built on slave/sweatshop labour and low regulations and the singular will of a politic elite.. It isn't a beacon for other countries looking for new models to construct an exciting around
Their wealth is basically built around exploitation, Human Rights abuse and pollution.. What a ridiculous misnomer..
Clearly you haven't been. "It's almost as though you're being deliberately provocative by citing that particular economy as a type of ideal / aspirational ecconomic model .. There certainly is alot of visible conspicuous consumption in China ATM.. Not necessarily indicative of success or sustainability. "Communists" gorging at the toff of consumerism with the burdens of the wealth creation being shouldered on the backs of cheap labour and low environmental regulations.. All it'll take to topple that house of cards is a workers revolt. An economy like that is only viable aslong as it can maintain a cheap labour culture Or until another country comes along and undercuts.. Just saying.. | |||
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"All it'll take to topple that house of cards is a workers revolt." Orwell's cart horse | |||
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"All it'll take to topple that house of cards is a workers revolt. Orwell's cart horse " People are entitled to their individual opinions.. But, my gosh. Lol. Xx. | |||
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"Get real it is the way of the world Do you also accept that discrimination against cross-dressers is also the way of the world? Unfortunatly yes I exept it because it is part of the human condition If everyone was as pessimistic as you then we'd all be eating gruel inside huts insulated with pig shit in order to sustain a feudal system. Lol I am just realistic we all have faults,and we are only one step above a feudal system look around you exept it and try to make a little corner beautifull and hope the rest follow. No offence but you don't sound like much of a student of history if you think we're just "one step above a feudal system". I'd love to send you on a week long holiday to 1066. Fundamentally, the working conditions we are scorning on this thread would have been common place in this country ~150 years ago. We fixed it here, there's no fundamental reason other countries can't do the same. Modern slavery, traditional slavery, and feudal serfdom are different things and have different causes. It's not as simple as saying "we fixed it and so should you." The economic conditions and the cultural history that result in each are too different to compare. In my opinion. Does it need to change? Yes. Can it change? Yes. But how? -Courtney And you call yourself a Bernie Sanders fan! I don't think the shit conditions of victorian workhouses are all that different to the Chinese factories making iphones. The answer involves a combination of laws, productivity, trade and luck. All of which will happen faster if more people show an interest in consumer activism. Leave Bernie out of it
No, I'm not saying there aren't similarities, obviously. I'm saying it isn't simple. There are too many big interests at work to simply pass a law and make something happen. In many of the countries where this is going on, the governments are in bed with the very corporations imposing these conditions. And very often the prospect of a very shit "job" is the only prospect there is.
Globalisation has added a whole new dimension to these issued as well. It is something that wasn't as big a concern back when Europe was dealing with its slavery/serfdom issues.
I agree that it is possible to change and that it should happen. I just have yet to hear a viable solution and consumer activism or boycotting of companies isn't necessarily going to fix the issue. It could leave a vacuum of sorts, or have countless other repercussions that we haven't thought about yet (hence my previous statement on the thread about many anti-slavery campaigns not supporting such action).
-Courtney
Bottom line is that historically speaking the Chinese have been richer than Britain by far so it's really not strange to expect them to regain that status.
Naturally we all remember Emperor Qianlong (1735-1796) who cancelled the annual tax on 4 occasions because he ran out of space in the vaults to store all the inconvient coin. China only became a cesspool because the later Qing dynasty pursued a policy of economic isolation (also green party policy by the way) and then they turned to communism to revive their economy, which is like turning to crack cocaine to get off an alcohol addiction. Thankfully someone called Deng ShaoPing had the balls to stop the madness and set China on its path back to prosperity where it traditionally was.
So in other words, at least in the case of China, we're talking about a return to business as usual rather than a radical change of the culture.
Bs. Chinas economy is built on slave/sweatshop labour and low regulations and the singular will of a politic elite.. It isn't a beacon for other countries looking for new models to construct an exciting around
Their wealth is basically built around exploitation, Human Rights abuse and pollution.. What a ridiculous misnomer..
Clearly you haven't been.
It's almost as though you're being deliberately provocative by citing that particular economy as a type of ideal / aspirational ecconomic model ..
There certainly is alot of visible conspicuous consumption in China ATM.. Not necessarily indicative of success or sustainability.
"Communists" gorging at the toff of consumerism with the burdens of the wealth creation being shouldered on the backs of cheap labour and low environmental regulations..
All it'll take to topple that house of cards is a workers revolt.
An economy like that is only viable aslong as it can maintain a cheap labour culture Or until another country comes along and undercuts..
Just saying.. "And I'm just saying that your information sounds very second hand based on its inaccuracy. You've also totally missed my point. I didn't say China was a model country at all. Courtney asked how we improve workers conditions in other countries and named many challenges. I simply pointed out that one of the examples was historically speaking, a much richer country than ours meaning that it's clearly not a fundamentally hopeless country. | |||
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"Although there was this *one time* at a cocktail party in LA when I came unstuck..." I was holding forth about how if you looked at the impact of US foreign policy in the Middle East over the last 60 yrs, support for Israel blah blah blah... you could maybe, possibly see why the WTC attacks occurred. Well that went down like a fart in a space suit... | |||
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"Although there was this *one time* at a cocktail party in LA when I came unstuck... I was holding forth about how if you looked at the impact of US foreign policy in the Middle East over the last 60 yrs, support for Israel blah blah blah... you could maybe, possibly see why the WTC attacks occurred. Well that went down like a fart in a space suit..." And the host of the party actually said, "Stop right there!" Went off, brought back a package and said, "Here, I want you to have this." And there were several layers of packing paper and bubble wrap, right down to an A4 clip frame full of grey grit... dust? "I was in NYC on the day of the attacks and we crept under police lines and I collected this out of the sky and I want you to have it." Well that shut me up.  | |||
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"Although there was this *one time* at a cocktail party in LA when I came unstuck... I was holding forth about how if you looked at the impact of US foreign policy in the Middle East over the last 60 yrs, support for Israel blah blah blah... you could maybe, possibly see why the WTC attacks occurred. Well that went down like a fart in a space suit... And the host of the party actually said, "Stop right there!" Went off, brought back a package and said, "Here, I want you to have this." And there were several layers of packing paper and bubble wrap, right down to an A4 clip frame full of grey grit... dust? "I was in NYC on the day of the attacks and we crept under police lines and I collected this out of the sky and I want you to have it." Well that shut me up. "Well you know how when you talk to Germans you don't mention the war... | |||
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"Although there was this *one time* at a cocktail party in LA when I came unstuck... I was holding forth about how if you looked at the impact of US foreign policy in the Middle East over the last 60 yrs, support for Israel blah blah blah... you could maybe, possibly see why the WTC attacks occurred. Well that went down like a fart in a space suit... And the host of the party actually said, "Stop right there!" Went off, brought back a package and said, "Here, I want you to have this." And there were several layers of packing paper and bubble wrap, right down to an A4 clip frame full of grey grit... dust? "I was in NYC on the day of the attacks and we crept under police lines and I collected this out of the sky and I want you to have it." Well that shut me up.
Well you know how when you talk to Germans you don't mention the war... "They're quite easy about that, I've found. | |||
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"Get real it is the way of the world Do you also accept that discrimination against cross-dressers is also the way of the world? Unfortunatly yes I exept it because it is part of the human condition If everyone was as pessimistic as you then we'd all be eating gruel inside huts insulated with pig shit in order to sustain a feudal system. Lol I am just realistic we all have faults,and we are only one step above a feudal system look around you exept it and try to make a little corner beautifull and hope the rest follow. No offence but you don't sound like much of a student of history if you think we're just "one step above a feudal system". I'd love to send you on a week long holiday to 1066. Fundamentally, the working conditions we are scorning on this thread would have been common place in this country ~150 years ago. We fixed it here, there's no fundamental reason other countries can't do the same. Modern slavery, traditional slavery, and feudal serfdom are different things and have different causes. It's not as simple as saying "we fixed it and so should you." The economic conditions and the cultural history that result in each are too different to compare. In my opinion. Does it need to change? Yes. Can it change? Yes. But how? -Courtney And you call yourself a Bernie Sanders fan! I don't think the shit conditions of victorian workhouses are all that different to the Chinese factories making iphones. The answer involves a combination of laws, productivity, trade and luck. All of which will happen faster if more people show an interest in consumer activism. Leave Bernie out of it
No, I'm not saying there aren't similarities, obviously. I'm saying it isn't simple. There are too many big interests at work to simply pass a law and make something happen. In many of the countries where this is going on, the governments are in bed with the very corporations imposing these conditions. And very often the prospect of a very shit "job" is the only prospect there is.
Globalisation has added a whole new dimension to these issued as well. It is something that wasn't as big a concern back when Europe was dealing with its slavery/serfdom issues.
I agree that it is possible to change and that it should happen. I just have yet to hear a viable solution and consumer activism or boycotting of companies isn't necessarily going to fix the issue. It could leave a vacuum of sorts, or have countless other repercussions that we haven't thought about yet (hence my previous statement on the thread about many anti-slavery campaigns not supporting such action).
-Courtney
Bottom line is that historically speaking the Chinese have been richer than Britain by far so it's really not strange to expect them to regain that status.
Naturally we all remember Emperor Qianlong (1735-1796) who cancelled the annual tax on 4 occasions because he ran out of space in the vaults to store all the inconvient coin. China only became a cesspool because the later Qing dynasty pursued a policy of economic isolation (also green party policy by the way) and then they turned to communism to revive their economy, which is like turning to crack cocaine to get off an alcohol addiction. Thankfully someone called Deng ShaoPing had the balls to stop the madness and set China on its path back to prosperity where it traditionally was.
So in other words, at least in the case of China, we're talking about a return to business as usual rather than a radical change of the culture. "I fell asleep
Anyway, China is a conveniently picked example. How about the places where slavery is most endemic? Where the supply chains start with the collection of natural resources? Places like African countries, Thailand, Central America?
My point above still stands.
-Courtney | |||
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"How about the places where slavery is most endemic? Where the supply chains start with the collection of natural resources? Places like African countries, Thailand, Central America? My point above still stands. -Courtney " Well ask yourself why other places that have abundant natural resources aren't hell holes? Why is the Congo an armpit of a country whilst Norway, Australia and Saudi Arabia have GDP per head that is roughly equal to or better than us? | |||
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"How about the places where slavery is most endemic? Where the supply chains start with the collection of natural resources? Places like African countries, Thailand, Central America? My point above still stands. -Courtney Well ask yourself why other places that have abundant natural resources aren't hell holes? Why is the Congo an armpit of a country whilst Norway, Australia and Saudi Arabia have GDP per head that is roughly equal to or better than us? " The answer to that just shows how complicated it all will be to fix. I don't think we are disagreeing on any fundamental points here. I'm merely saying that the reality is more complex than the mantra "shop elsewhere" will have us believe. -Courtney | |||
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"How about the places where slavery is most endemic? Where the supply chains start with the collection of natural resources? Places like African countries, Thailand, Central America? My point above still stands. -Courtney Well ask yourself why other places that have abundant natural resources aren't hell holes? Why is the Congo an armpit of a country whilst Norway, Australia and Saudi Arabia have GDP per head that is roughly equal to or better than us? The answer to that just shows how complicated it all will be to fix. I don't think we are disagreeing on any fundamental points here. I'm merely saying that the reality is more complex than the mantra "shop elsewhere" will have us believe. -Courtney " Well before 2003 I would have argued that all we need to do is invade one of these shit holes and install a good government that can turn it into a model country. Who knew there was actually such a thing as a life worse than living under Saddam Hussain!?! | |||
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"*raises hand*" I know this intellectual pissing contest is great n' all... But it doesn't change anything. | |||
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"*raises hand* I know this intellectual pissing contest is great n' all... But it doesn't change anything. "People who didn't know about Nestlé can make an informed decision of whether they would like to continue purchasing from them as a result. Don't see why that's a pissing contest? | |||
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"*raises hand* I know this intellectual pissing contest is great n' all... But it doesn't change anything.
People who didn't know about Nestlé can make an informed decision of whether they would like to continue purchasing from them as a result. Don't see why that's a pissing contest?"*This* is very true. | |||
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"*raises hand* I know this intellectual pissing contest is great n' all... But it doesn't change anything.
People who didn't know about Nestlé can make an informed decision of whether they would like to continue purchasing from them as a result. Don't see why that's a pissing contest?"Exactly, just because you can't solve the whole problem by boycotting companies you don't like, doesn't mean you shouldn't do anything! | |||
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"*raises hand* I know this intellectual pissing contest is great n' all... But it doesn't change anything.
People who didn't know about Nestlé can make an informed decision of whether they would like to continue purchasing from them as a result. Don't see why that's a pissing contest?
Exactly, just because you can't solve the whole problem by boycotting companies you don't like, doesn't mean you shouldn't do anything! "Indeed. And discussion is the starting point. | |||
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" Until people realise that the enemy isn't someone of a different religion or race or colour or because he wears a turban and has a beard ,but the elite who want to grab more and more wealth while people die from hunger and war we have no hope." The elite may be our enemy but so are those people who follow the fascist ideology of numerous religions. People will not realise with out being educated to think for themselves and nobody in any form of power has ever wanted that. | |||
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" The question of whether we allow our morals to dictate what products we use/consume is an interesting one. Is it! What exactly are the arguments in support of buying from companies that violate your moral standards? How simple is it to avoid using companies that in some fashion offend your morals? The post by diamond joe is quite helpful in this regard. The forum is full of threads concerning austerity measures and people with very little being pushed to their limit. Yet we see a multi national like google reaching a deal with the Revenue to pay a fraction of what they do. Can you not help but think that if the all the multinationals paid what they owed, such cuts would not be necessary. " Hmmmm Multinational companies know they do wrong, they see is pound signs and how to legally get round tax evasion. They would rather pay high priced lawyers and accountants to help them do this than care about the welfare of people on the front line. | |||
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"Two ways to look at it yes it,s morally wrong but they are earning money to feed them selves were would they be with out it " Slaves and children would be better off not being forced to work, and being freely able to choose their work (or finish their education). | |||
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"Who cares! Roll on the Easter bunny "A lot of people care. Just because you don't, doesn't mean you should trivialise/mock those who are suffering. | |||
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"Who cares! Roll on the Easter bunny
A lot of people care. Just because you don't, doesn't mean you should trivialise/mock those who are suffering. "the only ones suffering is the amount of tax I pay in my wages!! supporting all there families which have come over here! Now that's suffering | |||
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"Who cares! Roll on the Easter bunny
A lot of people care. Just because you don't, doesn't mean you should trivialise/mock those who are suffering. the only ones suffering is the amount of tax I pay in my wages!! supporting all there families which have come over here! Now that's suffering "This is nothing to do with migration or your tax. Perhaps you could keep your xenophobic thoughts to yourself. | |||
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"Two ways to look at it yes it,s morally wrong but they are earning money to feed them selves were would they be with out it " If history is anything to go on they'd be overthrowing their government, potentially getting a better one, potentially not. People don't just passively starve to death you know. | |||
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"Who cares! Roll on the Easter bunny
A lot of people care. Just because you don't, doesn't mean you should trivialise/mock those who are suffering. the only ones suffering is the amount of tax I pay in my wages!! supporting all there families which have come over here! Now that's suffering
This is nothing to do with migration or your tax. Perhaps you could keep your xenophobic thoughts to yourself. "No let him speak! How else will we know who to block? | |||
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"Two ways to look at it yes it,s morally wrong but they are earning money to feed them selves were would they be with out it If history is anything to go on they'd be overthrowing their government, potentially getting a better one, potentially not. People don't just passively starve to death you know." Also, human trafficking is not a solution to starvation. It's a mental thought from that poster. | |||
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" Until people realise that the enemy isn't someone of a different religion or race or colour or because he wears a turban and has a beard ,but the elite who want to grab more and more wealth while people die from hunger and war we have no hope. The elite may be our enemy but so are those people who follow the fascist ideology of numerous religions. People will not realise with out being educated to think for themselves and nobody in any form of power has ever wanted that." In worldwide economics everyone in Britain is in the elite. How would you like it if 800m Chinese and 900m Indians declared you the enemy just for having more wealth than them? | |||
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" Until people realise that the enemy isn't someone of a different religion or race or colour or because he wears a turban and has a beard ,but the elite who want to grab more and more wealth while people die from hunger and war we have no hope. The elite may be our enemy but so are those people who follow the fascist ideology of numerous religions. People will not realise with out being educated to think for themselves and nobody in any form of power has ever wanted that. In worldwide economics everyone in Britain is in the elite. How would you like it if 800m Chinese and 900m Indians declared you the enemy just for having more wealth than them? " And yet in the fifth wealthiest country in the world we have food banks and ghettos by any other name. I do feel sorry for people coming here looking for a better life because that life is then right in front of them, only just as unattainable if not more so. The more money in the corporation's pockets, the less opportunities in the communities unless you fully sell out to capitalism (which is actually economically unsustainable and highly privileged before independent businesses). | |||
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" Until people realise that the enemy isn't someone of a different religion or race or colour or because he wears a turban and has a beard ,but the elite who want to grab more and more wealth while people die from hunger and war we have no hope. The elite may be our enemy but so are those people who follow the fascist ideology of numerous religions. People will not realise with out being educated to think for themselves and nobody in any form of power has ever wanted that. In worldwide economics everyone in Britain is in the elite. How would you like it if 800m Chinese and 900m Indians declared you the enemy just for having more wealth than them? And yet in the fifth wealthiest country in the world we have food banks and ghettos by any other name. " Food banks are inequality rather than poverty if we're using terms that have international meaning. How many food banks are there in the Congo, Afghanistan or North Korea? I don't deny that there is inequality here on a big scale or that life is pretty shit at the bottom, but honestly it's not even the same ball park as what others go through legitimately living hand to mouth / dying in the process. | |||
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"Although there was this *one time* at a cocktail party in LA when I came unstuck... I was holding forth about how if you looked at the impact of US foreign policy in the Middle East over the last 60 yrs, support for Israel blah blah blah... you could maybe, possibly see why the WTC attacks occurred. Well that went down like a fart in a space suit... And the host of the party actually said, "Stop right there!" Went off, brought back a package and said, "Here, I want you to have this." And there were several layers of packing paper and bubble wrap, right down to an A4 clip frame full of grey grit... dust? "I was in NYC on the day of the attacks and we crept under police lines and I collected this out of the sky and I want you to have it." Well that shut me up. "I'm originally from Manchester, and I don't know anyone who went out and collected rubble from the Arndale Centre.... | |||
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"I bet your Marxist dialectic gets all the chicks
We all know that the only reason men get into left wing politics is for the chicks. Usually at university when they have a private bedroom for the first time in their life...
I picked up an American millionaire (amongst others) with my schtick.
I highly recommend it. "This is another thing I'm clearly doing wrong in life... My politics have got precisely nobody into bed ever. I've always regarded being on the left as deeply untrendy (both my grandfathers were at one time or another paid up members of the Communist Party, perhaps this has something to do with it)... | |||
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" The question of whether we allow our morals to dictate what products we use/consume is an interesting one. Is it! What exactly are the arguments in support of buying from companies that violate your moral standards? How simple is it to avoid using companies that in some fashion offend your morals? The post by diamond joe is quite helpful in this regard. The forum is full of threads concerning austerity measures and people with very little being pushed to their limit. Yet we see a multi national like google reaching a deal with the Revenue to pay a fraction of what they do. Can you not help but think that if the all the multinationals paid what they owed, such cuts would not be necessary. Hmmmm Multinational companies know they do wrong, they see is pound signs and how to legally get round tax evasion. They would rather pay high priced lawyers and accountants to help them do this than care about the welfare of people on the front line." That's just my point. Yes forced labour is a whole different level and unforgivable but also numerous other multi nationals continue to do morally offensive things and yet we continue to use them. Why? There is a variety of reasons including but not limited to ignorance and convenience. | |||
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" Food banks are inequality rather than poverty if we're using terms that have international meaning." In Britain poverty in itself is inequality. But hey, for everyone who cared to fight the system and stand shoulder to shoulder, we can be proud that we're all equally fucked while some privileged brats continue to sell off the industries they can't hold to ransom. | |||
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"To make light of the Google situation .... Perhaps if Bing wasn't so shit we may consider a boycott!!" . It's just well meaning nonsense... Most people can't even get out of their car and bike somewhere let alone stop flying on holiday... And if we can't stop that, then what the fuck is the point of saving a fucking immigrant or a starving kid in Malaysia... I don't know if anyone's actually looked at the biggest problem "we" face.... We need us to stop buying a whole shit load of stuff.... We need to cut GDP in the west by like 25% in ten years... And that's while we've got huge debts!.. Of course IF we can do that we'll avoid the worse off climate change and in the process.. Do that and the third world will be just fine left to their own devises! | |||
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" Food banks are inequality rather than poverty if we're using terms that have international meaning. In Britain poverty in itself is inequality. " Yes it is, but try explaining to a Chinese person that if you are unemployed in Britain the government actually gives you money and there is a safety net (however shit). They don't even have the concept. | |||
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