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"Would those who believe that the junior doctors do not have a genuine grievance and should have to work more hours for less money like to comment? " Not me! I've already used my battery and both power-packs, and had my final say. Maybe we need to think outside the box... do you think the "Logan's Run" option still involves Jenny Agutter's tits? 
Nite, nite
Mr ddc | |||
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"I have a small suggestion, which I don't think will solve the bigger issue hear, but may help fund salaries, equipment or any of part of he NHS in hospitals. So my suggestion is that a bit like a NHS dentist, you pay for certain things. I believe last time I went to a NHS dentist I paid £17.50 or £18.50. Needed two fillings and ended up paying a total of under £50 for a check up and two fillings. For my less than £50, I visited the dentist 4 times. Now I know people may think I'm suggesting privatising. I'm not. But I'm happy to pay my way a bit for something I use, 2 to 3 times a year. I don't expect to pay for a major operation, but £17.50 or £18.50 for something like an x-ray, won't hurt to many people's pockets. Just a little suggestion" It's called 'co-pay'. You pay a certain amount of costs up to a maximum amount. | |||
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"I have a small suggestion, which I don't think will solve the bigger issue hear, but may help fund salaries, equipment or any of part of he NHS in hospitals. So my suggestion is that a bit like a NHS dentist, you pay for certain things. I believe last time I went to a NHS dentist I paid £17.50 or £18.50. Needed two fillings and ended up paying a total of under £50 for a check up and two fillings. For my less than £50, I visited the dentist 4 times. Now I know people may think I'm suggesting privatising. I'm not. But I'm happy to pay my way a bit for something I use, 2 to 3 times a year. I don't expect to pay for a major operation, but £17.50 or £18.50 for something like an x-ray, won't hurt to many people's pockets. Just a little suggestion" A large drain on the NHS is geriatric care. Those people wouldn't really be able to afford care on such a low fixed income, despite it being reasonable for one off treatments for most working people. | |||
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"A large drain on the NHS is geriatric care. Those people wouldn't really be able to afford care on such a low fixed income, despite it being reasonable for one off treatments for most working people. " Just like the dentist, I don't expect U18's, geriatrics or people who fall into a certain bracket to pay. | |||
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" Starting on under £23k after six years leaves them well behind most other graduates, routinely working 60 or 70 hour weeks. " After 6 years? They start on that in their first year and it goes up to £47k whilst still a registrar. Doctors have a long healthy earning career, it might not be at the start but it sure is after their 8th year or so. | |||
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"A large drain on the NHS is geriatric care. Those people wouldn't really be able to afford care on such a low fixed income, despite it being reasonable for one off treatments for most working people. Just like the dentist, I don't expect U18's, geriatrics or people who fall into a certain bracket to pay. " Those are the people that need to pay the most to make the most impact, the dementia and elderly care patients. It'll also be needed from obesity patients and smokers. | |||
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" Starting on under £23k after six years leaves them well behind most other graduates, routinely working 60 or 70 hour weeks. After 6 years? They start on that in their first year and it goes up to £47k whilst still a registrar. Doctors have a long healthy earning career, it might not be at the start but it sure is after their 8th year or so. " They are F1s in year 3 (after 2 years of uni). F2s get around £28k. It jumps considerably each year, like you said. | |||
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" Starting on under £23k after six years leaves them well behind most other graduates, routinely working 60 or 70 hour weeks. After 6 years? They start on that in their first year and it goes up to £47k whilst still a registrar. Doctors have a long healthy earning career, it might not be at the start but it sure is after their 8th year or so. " Do you know how long it can take some specialities to become a registrar? | |||
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" Starting on under £23k after six years leaves them well behind most other graduates, routinely working 60 or 70 hour weeks. After 6 years? They start on that in their first year and it goes up to £47k whilst still a registrar. Doctors have a long healthy earning career, it might not be at the start but it sure is after their 8th year or so. Do you know how long it can take some specialities to become a registrar? " At least 6 years. | |||
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"A large drain on the NHS is geriatric care. Those people wouldn't really be able to afford care on such a low fixed income, despite it being reasonable for one off treatments for most working people. Just like the dentist, I don't expect U18's, geriatrics or people who fall into a certain bracket to pay. Those are the people that need to pay the most to make the most impact, the dementia and elderly care patients. It'll also be needed from obesity patients and smokers." It seems from your post on the other page you have had dealings with specialists within the NHS. How much did you contribute to that cost?. | |||
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"A large drain on the NHS is geriatric care. Those people wouldn't really be able to afford care on such a low fixed income, despite it being reasonable for one off treatments for most working people. Just like the dentist, I don't expect U18's, geriatrics or people who fall into a certain bracket to pay. Those are the people that need to pay the most to make the most impact, the dementia and elderly care patients. It'll also be needed from obesity patients and smokers. It seems from your post on the other page you have had dealings with specialists within the NHS. How much did you contribute to that cost?. " You mean my taxes? Thousands and thousands. I guess I'm not contributing and not even using it, you ought to be grateful.  | |||
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" Starting on under £23k after six years leaves them well behind most other graduates, routinely working 60 or 70 hour weeks. After 6 years? They start on that in their first year and it goes up to £47k whilst still a registrar. Doctors have a long healthy earning career, it might not be at the start but it sure is after their 8th year or so. Do you know how long it can take some specialities to become a registrar? " It takes 2 years to become a registrar. How long you remain a registrar before becoming a consultant depends on your specialty. | |||
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"A large drain on the NHS is geriatric care. Those people wouldn't really be able to afford care on such a low fixed income, despite it being reasonable for one off treatments for most working people. Just like the dentist, I don't expect U18's, geriatrics or people who fall into a certain bracket to pay. Those are the people that need to pay the most to make the most impact, the dementia and elderly care patients. It'll also be needed from obesity patients and smokers. It seems from your post on the other page you have had dealings with specialists within the NHS. How much did you contribute to that cost?. You mean my taxes? Thousands and thousands. I guess I'm not contributing and not even using it, you ought to be grateful. "Oops I meant I'm now contributing and not using it. | |||
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"A large drain on the NHS is geriatric care. Those people wouldn't really be able to afford care on such a low fixed income, despite it being reasonable for one off treatments for most working people. Just like the dentist, I don't expect U18's, geriatrics or people who fall into a certain bracket to pay. Those are the people that need to pay the most to make the most impact, the dementia and elderly care patients. It'll also be needed from obesity patients and smokers. It seems from your post on the other page you have had dealings with specialists within the NHS. How much did you contribute to that cost?. You mean my taxes? Thousands and thousands. I guess I'm not contributing and not even using it, you ought to be grateful.
Oops I meant I'm now contributing and not using it. "Your tax doesn't cover the NHS it's national insurance that does that and it's 21%. | |||
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"A large drain on the NHS is geriatric care. Those people wouldn't really be able to afford care on such a low fixed income, despite it being reasonable for one off treatments for most working people. Just like the dentist, I don't expect U18's, geriatrics or people who fall into a certain bracket to pay. Those are the people that need to pay the most to make the most impact, the dementia and elderly care patients. It'll also be needed from obesity patients and smokers. It seems from your post on the other page you have had dealings with specialists within the NHS. How much did you contribute to that cost?. You mean my taxes? Thousands and thousands. I guess I'm not contributing and not even using it, you ought to be grateful.
Oops I meant I'm now contributing and not using it.
Your tax doesn't cover the NHS it's national insurance that does that and it's 21%.
"No it doesn't. NI covers social security! Jeeeez  | |||
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"A large drain on the NHS is geriatric care. Those people wouldn't really be able to afford care on such a low fixed income, despite it being reasonable for one off treatments for most working people. Just like the dentist, I don't expect U18's, geriatrics or people who fall into a certain bracket to pay. Those are the people that need to pay the most to make the most impact, the dementia and elderly care patients. It'll also be needed from obesity patients and smokers. It seems from your post on the other page you have had dealings with specialists within the NHS. How much did you contribute to that cost?. You mean my taxes? Thousands and thousands. I guess I'm not contributing and not even using it, you ought to be grateful.
Oops I meant I'm now contributing and not using it.
Your tax doesn't cover the NHS it's national insurance that does that and it's 21%.
"Well, on my tax summary, it was around £5,000 in contributions. I'm not sure what your point is, or if you're just being nosey. The doctor was still shit at his job. There will always be shit doctors no matter how much I continue to contribute. I'm still not going to worship them for you, it's weird and bizarre to idolise them for working. | |||
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"A large drain on the NHS is geriatric care. Those people wouldn't really be able to afford care on such a low fixed income, despite it being reasonable for one off treatments for most working people. Just like the dentist, I don't expect U18's, geriatrics or people who fall into a certain bracket to pay. Those are the people that need to pay the most to make the most impact, the dementia and elderly care patients. It'll also be needed from obesity patients and smokers. It seems from your post on the other page you have had dealings with specialists within the NHS. How much did you contribute to that cost?. You mean my taxes? Thousands and thousands. I guess I'm not contributing and not even using it, you ought to be grateful.
Oops I meant I'm now contributing and not using it.
Your tax doesn't cover the NHS it's national insurance that does that and it's 21%.
No it doesn't.
NI covers social security!
Jeeeez "So the NHS isn't a state benefit then | |||
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"A large drain on the NHS is geriatric care. Those people wouldn't really be able to afford care on such a low fixed income, despite it being reasonable for one off treatments for most working people. Just like the dentist, I don't expect U18's, geriatrics or people who fall into a certain bracket to pay. Those are the people that need to pay the most to make the most impact, the dementia and elderly care patients. It'll also be needed from obesity patients and smokers. It seems from your post on the other page you have had dealings with specialists within the NHS. How much did you contribute to that cost?. You mean my taxes? Thousands and thousands. I guess I'm not contributing and not even using it, you ought to be grateful.
Oops I meant I'm now contributing and not using it.
Your tax doesn't cover the NHS it's national insurance that does that and it's 21%.
No it doesn't.
NI covers social security!
Jeeeez
So the NHS isn't a state benefit then"No it's not a benefit - it's a service. The clue is in the name. | |||
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"A large drain on the NHS is geriatric care. Those people wouldn't really be able to afford care on such a low fixed income, despite it being reasonable for one off treatments for most working people. Just like the dentist, I don't expect U18's, geriatrics or people who fall into a certain bracket to pay. Those are the people that need to pay the most to make the most impact, the dementia and elderly care patients. It'll also be needed from obesity patients and smokers. It seems from your post on the other page you have had dealings with specialists within the NHS. How much did you contribute to that cost?. You mean my taxes? Thousands and thousands. I guess I'm not contributing and not even using it, you ought to be grateful.
Oops I meant I'm now contributing and not using it.
Your tax doesn't cover the NHS it's national insurance that does that and it's 21%.
No it doesn't.
NI covers social security!
Jeeeez
So the NHS isn't a state benefit then"NI is to ensure you qualify for benefits and state pension when older. Even taxes contribute to welfare. | |||
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"A large drain on the NHS is geriatric care. Those people wouldn't really be able to afford care on such a low fixed income, despite it being reasonable for one off treatments for most working people. Just like the dentist, I don't expect U18's, geriatrics or people who fall into a certain bracket to pay. Those are the people that need to pay the most to make the most impact, the dementia and elderly care patients. It'll also be needed from obesity patients and smokers. It seems from your post on the other page you have had dealings with specialists within the NHS. How much did you contribute to that cost?. You mean my taxes? Thousands and thousands. I guess I'm not contributing and not even using it, you ought to be grateful.
Oops I meant I'm now contributing and not using it.
Your tax doesn't cover the NHS it's national insurance that does that and it's 21%.
No it doesn't.
NI covers social security!
Jeeeez
So the NHS isn't a state benefit then
No it's not a benefit - it's a service.
The clue is in the name. "Yup that's right it is! | |||
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"A large drain on the NHS is geriatric care. Those people wouldn't really be able to afford care on such a low fixed income, despite it being reasonable for one off treatments for most working people. Just like the dentist, I don't expect U18's, geriatrics or people who fall into a certain bracket to pay. Those are the people that need to pay the most to make the most impact, the dementia and elderly care patients. It'll also be needed from obesity patients and smokers. It seems from your post on the other page you have had dealings with specialists within the NHS. How much did you contribute to that cost?. You mean my taxes? Thousands and thousands. I guess I'm not contributing and not even using it, you ought to be grateful.
Oops I meant I'm now contributing and not using it.
Your tax doesn't cover the NHS it's national insurance that does that and it's 21%.
No it doesn't.
NI covers social security!
Jeeeez
So the NHS isn't a state benefit then
No it's not a benefit - it's a service.
The clue is in the name.
Yup that's right it is! "If NI were enough to pay for social security AND public services we'd have money come out of our ears. | |||
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"No explanation as to why I was asked how much of my tax contributes to the NHS, then? Mad. " Oh sorry I didn't realise I had to reply when you demanded. Not mad but can't be arsed with you as no matter what anyone says the only point of view you think is right is yours. | |||
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"To be honest,I think the government missed a trick when the lottery came in...should of had a state run lottery...all funds raised go towards running the NHS...the perfect tax." And what would become of all the progress made from the charitable/community giving? If the population can't pay enough tax to pay its bills then the system is broken, not the licence for the lottery. | |||
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"No explanation as to why I was asked how much of my tax contributes to the NHS, then? Mad. Oh sorry I didn't realise I had to reply when you demanded. Not mad but can't be arsed with you as no matter what anyone says the only point of view you think is right is yours. " Well, I don't know how you can annoyed with my saying some doctors are shit so I'd rather not see that one nephrologist. Or why you're having a go at me for initially using the NHS. Obviously I think I'm right. He was a shit doctor and I could've died because of him refusing to investigate further. I'm not gonna say how wonderful he was, or compliment his (absent) work ethic. | |||
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"Have been following the first thread and noticed how many keep going on about working hours, and why do doctors think that they deserve more money for working long hours, that they dont have to work those hours (working time directive) and only do it because they are greedy and selfserving... This is a direct copy from the working time directive: Excluded sectors 18. Regulations 4(1) and (2), 6(1), (2) and (7), 7(1), and (6), 8, 10(1), 11(1) and (2), 12(1), 13 and 16 do not apply— (a)to the following sectors of activity— (i)air, rail, road, sea, inland waterway and lake transport; (ii)sea fishing; (iii)other work at sea; or (b)to the activities of doctors in training, or (c)where characteristics peculiar to certain specific services such as the armed forces or the police, or to certain specific activities in the civil protection services, inevitably conflict with the provisions of these Regulations. Would those who believe that the junior doctors do not have a genuine grievance and should have to work more hours for less money like to comment? " The BMA seem to disgree with you. I wonder if you are confusing doctors in training with junior doctors. From the BMA website. "What is the 48 hour limit opt out? There are two things that limit Junior Doctors' hours: the EWTD or UK working time regulations (WTR) the Junior doctors contract (New Deal limits) Article 5 of the EWTD states that a worker may agree with their employer not to apply the limit of 48 hours per week to that worker. This also requires employers to keep a list of which workers have opted out, of how long they have opted out for and how many hours they are working. This does not exempt the worker from the rest requirements in the legislation or in their contract, nor does it exempt them from the hours limits in their contract. There are many differences between the New Deal Contract and the EWTD legislation – the differences in rest requirements are shown below." In their second year the NHS employers say that the average pay of a junior doctor with overtime and out of hours is £37000. | |||
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"No explanation as to why I was asked how much of my tax contributes to the NHS, then? Mad. Oh sorry I didn't realise I had to reply when you demanded. Not mad but can't be arsed with you as no matter what anyone says the only point of view you think is right is yours. Well, I don't know how you can annoyed with my saying some doctors are shit so I'd rather not see that one nephrologist. Or why you're having a go at me for initially using the NHS. Obviously I think I'm right. He was a shit doctor and I could've died because of him refusing to investigate further. I'm not gonna say how wonderful he was, or compliment his (absent) work ethic." I'm not annoyed at all nor am I having a go at you if I was you would know it. I said I can't be arsed it's very different. You hold that much of a grudge over your care make a complaint to pals, but don't tar every dr with the same brush. | |||
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"No explanation as to why I was asked how much of my tax contributes to the NHS, then? Mad. Oh sorry I didn't realise I had to reply when you demanded. Not mad but can't be arsed with you as no matter what anyone says the only point of view you think is right is yours. Well, I don't know how you can annoyed with my saying some doctors are shit so I'd rather not see that one nephrologist. Or why you're having a go at me for initially using the NHS. Obviously I think I'm right. He was a shit doctor and I could've died because of him refusing to investigate further. I'm not gonna say how wonderful he was, or compliment his (absent) work ethic. I'm not annoyed at all nor am I having a go at you if I was you would know it. I said I can't be arsed it's very different. You hold that much of a grudge over your care make a complaint to pals, but don't tar every dr with the same brush. " I have. I don't hold a grudge against the NHS, but I think it's ignorant to suggest I don't understand how hard doctors have it and how difficult their jobs are as I'm not in the medical industry. Other people have it much, much worse than the doctors treating them. My point is that I'm not going to say how wonderful doctors are because they're simply just doing a job that they chose to do. Some don't even care about the people they treat. It's not a vocation for a lot. | |||
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"To be honest,I think the government missed a trick when the lottery came in...should of had a state run lottery...all funds raised go towards running the NHS...the perfect tax. And what would become of all the progress made from the charitable/community giving? If the population can't pay enough tax to pay its bills then the system is broken, not the licence for the lottery. " I was talking about when it was first introduced....not removing it now.it is a perfect tax because people give it freely.I suspect the majority of people playing buy a ticket to win money,not because they are giving to charity. | |||
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"Must admit I'm a title confused, the junior doctors have been told they need to work longer hours for the same pay..... Their main argument seems to be that having to work longer hours puts patients at risk due to their obvious fatigue, which is understandable, so if they were paid more and did longer hours how does that take the risk to patients out of the equation? Maybe I have not understood the situation ?" Steph, ASs things stand a lot of departments in the NHS are closed at weekends. This means that infrastructure, accommodation and equipment stand idle and logjams occur moving patients from AandE and other out of hours areas. The main argument is that the govt want to make weekends normal working days instead of paying out of hours rates. As I understand it, the govt. has offered an 11% rise to compensate but it doesn't seem to be enough...they may have increased that %age. Eventually, they will get an agreement - it's a negotiation. | |||
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"The BMA seem to disgree with you. I wonder if you are confusing doctors in training with junior doctors. From the BMA website. "What is the 48 hour limit opt out? There are two things that limit Junior Doctors' hours: the EWTD or UK working time regulations (WTR) the Junior doctors contract (New Deal limits) Article 5 of the EWTD states that a worker may agree with their employer not to apply the limit of 48 hours per week to that worker. This also requires employers to keep a list of which workers have opted out, of how long they have opted out for and how many hours they are working. This does not exempt the worker from the rest requirements in the legislation or in their contract, nor does it exempt them from the hours limits in their contract. There are many differences between the New Deal Contract and the EWTD legislation – the differences in rest requirements are shown below." In their second year the NHS employers say that the average pay of a junior doctor with overtime and out of hours is £37000. " Now that just show... I quoted the UK WTR (that is the law) as enacted and used. And someone looks at the BMA site and says they do not agree with me. I did not make the law, all I did was quote it. Here is the link to the law: http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1998/1833/contents/made | |||
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"Must admit I'm a title confused, the junior doctors have been told they need to work longer hours for the same pay..... Their main argument seems to be that having to work longer hours puts patients at risk due to their obvious fatigue, which is understandable, so if they were paid more and did longer hours how does that take the risk to patients out of the equation? Maybe I have not understood the situation ?" they are seeking to take away the safe guards to stop junior doctors being forced to work even longer ours than they do now whilst giving them a pay cut .so yes they would be working even longer and there fore be even more tired and susceptible to mistakes for less reward .also consider why can a junior doctor be allowed by law to work 70-80 hours a week when bus truck and coach drivers are limited to a maximum of 90 spread over a fortnight ? | |||
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"Must admit I'm a title confused, the junior doctors have been told they need to work longer hours for the same pay..... Their main argument seems to be that having to work longer hours puts patients at risk due to their obvious fatigue, which is understandable, so if they were paid more and did longer hours how does that take the risk to patients out of the equation? Maybe I have not understood the situation ?they are seeking to take away the safe guards to stop junior doctors being forced to work even longer ours than they do now whilst giving them a pay cut .so yes they would be working even longer and there fore be even more tired and susceptible to mistakes for less reward .also consider why can a junior doctor be allowed by law to work 70-80 hours a week when bus truck and coach drivers are limited to a maximum of 90 spread over a fortnight ?" . Under the proposed offer , the maximum hours that Doctors can work will be reduced to 72 hours and their basis pay will rise by 11 % , far beyond the rate of inflation. | |||
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"Must admit I'm a title confused, the junior doctors have been told they need to work longer hours for the same pay..... Their main argument seems to be that having to work longer hours puts patients at risk due to their obvious fatigue, which is understandable, so if they were paid more and did longer hours how does that take the risk to patients out of the equation? Maybe I have not understood the situation ?they are seeking to take away the safe guards to stop junior doctors being forced to work even longer ours than they do now whilst giving them a pay cut .so yes they would be working even longer and there fore be even more tired and susceptible to mistakes for less reward .also consider why can a junior doctor be allowed by law to work 70-80 hours a week when bus truck and coach drivers are limited to a maximum of 90 spread over a fortnight ?. Under the proposed offer , the maximum hours that Doctors can work will be reduced to 72 hours and their basis pay will rise by 11 % , far beyond the rate of inflation." That's after pay cuts of 30% for those working antisocial hours and for every new doctor starting this year and beyond. Why should doctors who already work evenings/weekends get a pay cut when those working a 9 to 5 get a pay rise? Do please ask yourself if there's any pay rise on offer, why doctors need 'pay protection' until 2019. | |||
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"Must admit I'm a title confused, the junior doctors have been told they need to work longer hours for the same pay..... Their main argument seems to be that having to work longer hours puts patients at risk due to their obvious fatigue, which is understandable, so if they were paid more and did longer hours how does that take the risk to patients out of the equation? Maybe I have not understood the situation ?they are seeking to take away the safe guards to stop junior doctors being forced to work even longer ours than they do now whilst giving them a pay cut .so yes they would be working even longer and there fore be even more tired and susceptible to mistakes for less reward .also consider why can a junior doctor be allowed by law to work 70-80 hours a week when bus truck and coach drivers are limited to a maximum of 90 spread over a fortnight ?. Under the proposed offer , the maximum hours that Doctors can work will be reduced to 72 hours and their basis pay will rise by 11 % , far beyond the rate of inflation." but it is still excessive hours still in excess of 10 hrs a day which can only affect rest and recouperation ! Tell me why railway personnel in safety critical jobs can only work 12 hrs max and then must legally take an 11 hrs rest t Yet doctors are expected to do longer hours with less rest Here's an easy answer mr Hunt employ double the amount of doctors put them on shorter hours and you will still have the personnel to cover your weekends .oh and as an aside we still pay the second lowest of our GDP on health care in the developed world so yes we can afford it we just don't want to | |||
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" Starting on under £23k after six years leaves them well behind most other graduates, routinely working 60 or 70 hour weeks. After 6 years? They start on that in their first year and it goes up to £47k whilst still a registrar. Doctors have a long healthy earning career, it might not be at the start but it sure is after their 8th year or so. Do you know how long it can take some specialities to become a registrar? It takes 2 years to become a registrar. How long you remain a registrar before becoming a consultant depends on your specialty. " 2 years to become a registrar? Certainly not in this country. It's more like 10 years. | |||
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"They ain't complaining about the hours they work when they're 'moonlighting' at places like the Nuffield and Spire hospitals ... for big bucks. " Junior doctors cannot do private work, only consultants can do that. | |||
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"They ain't complaining about the hours they work when they're 'moonlighting' at places like the Nuffield and Spire hospitals ... for big bucks. Junior doctors cannot do private work, only consultants can do that." Junior Doctors will eventually become consultants though ... a bit like when I left school and was an apprentice, did shitty jobs, worked shitty hours but once I qualified I did quite nicely for myself. It's all about starting at the bottom of the pile isn't it ? | |||
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"They ain't complaining about the hours they work when they're 'moonlighting' at places like the Nuffield and Spire hospitals ... for big bucks. Junior doctors cannot do private work, only consultants can do that. Junior Doctors will eventually become consultants though ... a bit like when I left school and was an apprentice, did shitty jobs, worked shitty hours but once I qualified I did quite nicely for myself. It's all about starting at the bottom of the pile isn't it ? " I'll bet you weren't an apprentice for 15 years though. I do wonder what my landlord and childminder would say when if tell them I can't pay them for a decade. | |||
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" I'll bet you weren't an apprentice for 15 years though. ." Neither will most junior doctors, nor will Mr Cpl4fun ever earn over 100k basic. Besides, to quote the man who famously "stuffed their mouths with gold", (back in the day when socialists knew who they represented) "Damn it all, you can't have the crown of thorns AND the thirty pieces of silver"! Please remember that in order to sway public opinion, you have to consistently tell the truth, otherwise you simply make it easier for the other side to peddle lies. Mr ddc | |||
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"They ain't complaining about the hours they work when they're 'moonlighting' at places like the Nuffield and Spire hospitals ... for big bucks. Junior doctors cannot do private work, only consultants can do that. Junior Doctors will eventually become consultants though ... a bit like when I left school and was an apprentice, did shitty jobs, worked shitty hours but once I qualified I did quite nicely for myself. It's all about starting at the bottom of the pile isn't it ? I'll bet you weren't an apprentice for 15 years though. I do wonder what my landlord and childminder would say when if tell them I can't pay them for a decade." Maybe they'll take a halo as part payment. | |||
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"They ain't complaining about the hours they work when they're 'moonlighting' at places like the Nuffield and Spire hospitals ... for big bucks. Junior doctors cannot do private work, only consultants can do that. Junior Doctors will eventually become consultants though ... a bit like when I left school and was an apprentice, did shitty jobs, worked shitty hours but once I qualified I did quite nicely for myself. It's all about starting at the bottom of the pile isn't it ? " Not all doctors become consultants - far from it | |||
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"They ain't complaining about the hours they work when they're 'moonlighting' at places like the Nuffield and Spire hospitals ... for big bucks. Junior doctors cannot do private work, only consultants can do that. Junior Doctors will eventually become consultants though ... a bit like when I left school and was an apprentice, did shitty jobs, worked shitty hours but once I qualified I did quite nicely for myself. It's all about starting at the bottom of the pile isn't it ? I'll bet you weren't an apprentice for 15 years though. I do wonder what my landlord and childminder would say when if tell them I can't pay them for a decade." Yes but an apprentice in other types of work don't start on 23k rising up 70k until they become a consultant. | |||
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"They ain't complaining about the hours they work when they're 'moonlighting' at places like the Nuffield and Spire hospitals ... for big bucks. Junior doctors cannot do private work, only consultants can do that. Junior Doctors will eventually become consultants though ... a bit like when I left school and was an apprentice, did shitty jobs, worked shitty hours but once I qualified I did quite nicely for myself. It's all about starting at the bottom of the pile isn't it ? I'll bet you weren't an apprentice for 15 years though. I do wonder what my landlord and childminder would say when if tell them I can't pay them for a decade. Yes but an apprentice in other types of work don't start on 23k rising up 70k until they become a consultant." No, newly qualified bankers, lawyers, accountants, pilots, architects etc start on much more. | |||
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"They ain't complaining about the hours they work when they're 'moonlighting' at places like the Nuffield and Spire hospitals ... for big bucks. Junior doctors cannot do private work, only consultants can do that. Junior Doctors will eventually become consultants though ... a bit like when I left school and was an apprentice, did shitty jobs, worked shitty hours but once I qualified I did quite nicely for myself. It's all about starting at the bottom of the pile isn't it ? I'll bet you weren't an apprentice for 15 years though. I do wonder what my landlord and childminder would say when if tell them I can't pay them for a decade. Maybe they'll take a halo as part payment. " Maybe you should start your own thread about why you hate doctors if you don't want to contribute constructively to the debate? | |||
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"They ain't complaining about the hours they work when they're 'moonlighting' at places like the Nuffield and Spire hospitals ... for big bucks. Junior doctors cannot do private work, only consultants can do that. Junior Doctors will eventually become consultants though ... a bit like when I left school and was an apprentice, did shitty jobs, worked shitty hours but once I qualified I did quite nicely for myself. It's all about starting at the bottom of the pile isn't it ? I'll bet you weren't an apprentice for 15 years though. I do wonder what my landlord and childminder would say when if tell them I can't pay them for a decade. Yes but an apprentice in other types of work don't start on 23k rising up 70k until they become a consultant. No, newly qualified bankers, lawyers, accountants, pilots, architects etc start on much more. " No they don't. You're thinking of a very small percentage of people. All of those positions usually have a low starting salary too. | |||
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"They ain't complaining about the hours they work when they're 'moonlighting' at places like the Nuffield and Spire hospitals ... for big bucks. Junior doctors cannot do private work, only consultants can do that. Junior Doctors will eventually become consultants though ... a bit like when I left school and was an apprentice, did shitty jobs, worked shitty hours but once I qualified I did quite nicely for myself. It's all about starting at the bottom of the pile isn't it ? I'll bet you weren't an apprentice for 15 years though. I do wonder what my landlord and childminder would say when if tell them I can't pay them for a decade. Yes but an apprentice in other types of work don't start on 23k rising up 70k until they become a consultant. No, newly qualified bankers, lawyers, accountants, pilots, architects etc start on much more. No they don't. You're thinking of a very small percentage of people. All of those positions usually have a low starting salary too. " Actually, most graduates don't even earn until finishing year 3. Doctors earn £23k at the start of year 3, and go up to close to £30k by the time they're an F2. | |||
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"They ain't complaining about the hours they work when they're 'moonlighting' at places like the Nuffield and Spire hospitals ... for big bucks. Junior doctors cannot do private work, only consultants can do that. Junior Doctors will eventually become consultants though ... a bit like when I left school and was an apprentice, did shitty jobs, worked shitty hours but once I qualified I did quite nicely for myself. It's all about starting at the bottom of the pile isn't it ? I'll bet you weren't an apprentice for 15 years though. I do wonder what my landlord and childminder would say when if tell them I can't pay them for a decade. Yes but an apprentice in other types of work don't start on 23k rising up 70k until they become a consultant. No, newly qualified bankers, lawyers, accountants, pilots, architects etc start on much more. No they don't. You're thinking of a very small percentage of people. All of those positions usually have a low starting salary too. " The DDRB report suggests otherwise. | |||
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"They ain't complaining about the hours they work when they're 'moonlighting' at places like the Nuffield and Spire hospitals ... for big bucks. Junior doctors cannot do private work, only consultants can do that. Junior Doctors will eventually become consultants though ... a bit like when I left school and was an apprentice, did shitty jobs, worked shitty hours but once I qualified I did quite nicely for myself. It's all about starting at the bottom of the pile isn't it ? I'll bet you weren't an apprentice for 15 years though. I do wonder what my landlord and childminder would say when if tell them I can't pay them for a decade. Yes but an apprentice in other types of work don't start on 23k rising up 70k until they become a consultant. No, newly qualified bankers, lawyers, accountants, pilots, architects etc start on much more. No they don't. You're thinking of a very small percentage of people. All of those positions usually have a low starting salary too. The DDRB report suggests otherwise. " That sounds like an impartial review. | |||
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"They ain't complaining about the hours they work when they're 'moonlighting' at places like the Nuffield and Spire hospitals ... for big bucks. Junior doctors cannot do private work, only consultants can do that. Junior Doctors will eventually become consultants though ... a bit like when I left school and was an apprentice, did shitty jobs, worked shitty hours but once I qualified I did quite nicely for myself. It's all about starting at the bottom of the pile isn't it ? I'll bet you weren't an apprentice for 15 years though. I do wonder what my landlord and childminder would say when if tell them I can't pay them for a decade. Yes but an apprentice in other types of work don't start on 23k rising up 70k until they become a consultant. No, newly qualified bankers, lawyers, accountants, pilots, architects etc start on much more. No they don't. You're thinking of a very small percentage of people. All of those positions usually have a low starting salary too. Actually, most graduates don't even earn until finishing year 3. Doctors earn £23k at the start of year 3, and go up to close to £30k by the time they're an F2. " No they don't - they don't earn while doing their medical degrees, they start to earn when they become an F1, that's when the £23k starts. Which is AFTER their university degree finishes and they get a placement, so it's after 5 or 6 years. They don't get paid on the placements before that. Other graduates finish their degree in 3 or 4 or however many years and get a job and earn straight away. There's no difference. | |||
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"They ain't complaining about the hours they work when they're 'moonlighting' at places like the Nuffield and Spire hospitals ... for big bucks. Junior doctors cannot do private work, only consultants can do that. Junior Doctors will eventually become consultants though ... a bit like when I left school and was an apprentice, did shitty jobs, worked shitty hours but once I qualified I did quite nicely for myself. It's all about starting at the bottom of the pile isn't it ? I'll bet you weren't an apprentice for 15 years though. I do wonder what my landlord and childminder would say when if tell them I can't pay them for a decade. Yes but an apprentice in other types of work don't start on 23k rising up 70k until they become a consultant. No, newly qualified bankers, lawyers, accountants, pilots, architects etc start on much more. No they don't. You're thinking of a very small percentage of people. All of those positions usually have a low starting salary too. Actually, most graduates don't even earn until finishing year 3. Doctors earn £23k at the start of year 3, and go up to close to £30k by the time they're an F2. No they don't - they don't earn while doing their medical degrees, they start to earn when they become an F1, that's when the £23k starts. Which is AFTER their university degree finishes and they get a placement, so it's after 5 or 6 years. They don't get paid on the placements before that. Other graduates finish their degree in 3 or 4 or however many years and get a job and earn straight away. There's no difference. " You're wrong. In the new 6 year courses, only 3 years are pre clinical. | |||
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"They ain't complaining about the hours they work when they're 'moonlighting' at places like the Nuffield and Spire hospitals ... for big bucks. Junior doctors cannot do private work, only consultants can do that. Junior Doctors will eventually become consultants though ... a bit like when I left school and was an apprentice, did shitty jobs, worked shitty hours but once I qualified I did quite nicely for myself. It's all about starting at the bottom of the pile isn't it ? I'll bet you weren't an apprentice for 15 years though. I do wonder what my landlord and childminder would say when if tell them I can't pay them for a decade. Yes but an apprentice in other types of work don't start on 23k rising up 70k until they become a consultant. No, newly qualified bankers, lawyers, accountants, pilots, architects etc start on much more. No they don't. You're thinking of a very small percentage of people. All of those positions usually have a low starting salary too. Actually, most graduates don't even earn until finishing year 3. Doctors earn £23k at the start of year 3, and go up to close to £30k by the time they're an F2. No they don't - they don't earn while doing their medical degrees, they start to earn when they become an F1, that's when the £23k starts. Which is AFTER their university degree finishes and they get a placement, so it's after 5 or 6 years. They don't get paid on the placements before that. Other graduates finish their degree in 3 or 4 or however many years and get a job and earn straight away. There's no difference. You're wrong. In the new 6 year courses, only 3 years are pre clinical. " So on the new courses they'll spend 3 years at university and then the subsequent years they effectively work in hospitals and start getting paid? Sounds a lot like legal training then or accountancy training - and yeah you would expect at least £23k as a graduate salary in those, I work in recruitment. | |||
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"They ain't complaining about the hours they work when they're 'moonlighting' at places like the Nuffield and Spire hospitals ... for big bucks. Junior doctors cannot do private work, only consultants can do that. Junior Doctors will eventually become consultants though ... a bit like when I left school and was an apprentice, did shitty jobs, worked shitty hours but once I qualified I did quite nicely for myself. It's all about starting at the bottom of the pile isn't it ? I'll bet you weren't an apprentice for 15 years though. I do wonder what my landlord and childminder would say when if tell them I can't pay them for a decade. Yes but an apprentice in other types of work don't start on 23k rising up 70k until they become a consultant. No, newly qualified bankers, lawyers, accountants, pilots, architects etc start on much more. No they don't. You're thinking of a very small percentage of people. All of those positions usually have a low starting salary too. Actually, most graduates don't even earn until finishing year 3. Doctors earn £23k at the start of year 3, and go up to close to £30k by the time they're an F2. No they don't - they don't earn while doing their medical degrees, they start to earn when they become an F1, that's when the £23k starts. Which is AFTER their university degree finishes and they get a placement, so it's after 5 or 6 years. They don't get paid on the placements before that. Other graduates finish their degree in 3 or 4 or however many years and get a job and earn straight away. There's no difference. You're wrong. In the new 6 year courses, only 3 years are pre clinical. So on the new courses they'll spend 3 years at university and then the subsequent years they effectively work in hospitals and start getting paid? Sounds a lot like legal training then or accountancy training - and yeah you would expect at least £23k as a graduate salary in those, I work in recruitment. " Once they begin their F1 placement, they'll be paid 23k basic. Supplements or overtime can add thousands on top. The year of which they become an F1 depends on length of course. F2 gets 28k basic. Supplements again top it up by around 10k. Not many other industries offer such excellent salaries, they're definitely not to be dismissed as under payment. | |||
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"They ain't complaining about the hours they work when they're 'moonlighting' at places like the Nuffield and Spire hospitals ... for big bucks. Junior doctors cannot do private work, only consultants can do that. Junior Doctors will eventually become consultants though ... a bit like when I left school and was an apprentice, did shitty jobs, worked shitty hours but once I qualified I did quite nicely for myself. It's all about starting at the bottom of the pile isn't it ? I'll bet you weren't an apprentice for 15 years though. I do wonder what my landlord and childminder would say when if tell them I can't pay them for a decade. Yes but an apprentice in other types of work don't start on 23k rising up 70k until they become a consultant. No, newly qualified bankers, lawyers, accountants, pilots, architects etc start on much more. No they don't. You're thinking of a very small percentage of people. All of those positions usually have a low starting salary too. Actually, most graduates don't even earn until finishing year 3. Doctors earn £23k at the start of year 3, and go up to close to £30k by the time they're an F2. No they don't - they don't earn while doing their medical degrees, they start to earn when they become an F1, that's when the £23k starts. Which is AFTER their university degree finishes and they get a placement, so it's after 5 or 6 years. They don't get paid on the placements before that. Other graduates finish their degree in 3 or 4 or however many years and get a job and earn straight away. There's no difference. You're wrong. In the new 6 year courses, only 3 years are pre clinical. So on the new courses they'll spend 3 years at university and then the subsequent years they effectively work in hospitals and start getting paid? Sounds a lot like legal training then or accountancy training - and yeah you would expect at least £23k as a graduate salary in those, I work in recruitment. Once they begin their F1 placement, they'll be paid 23k basic. Supplements or overtime can add thousands on top. The year of which they become an F1 depends on length of course. F2 gets 28k basic. Supplements again top it up by around 10k. Not many other industries offer such excellent salaries, they're definitely not to be dismissed as under payment. " Yes but are they actually starting their F1 placement after 3 years at university? At the age of 21? If junior doctors are working in hospitals at the age of 21 with the level of a responsibility of an F1 after 3 years doing lectures and tutorials that's a bigger issue than any of this and is a massive change to any of the training that's currently in place. Can you send me a link to the new arrangements please because I've googled it and can't find anything about this. Or is this new degree for graduates with previous relevant degrees who THEN do the 3 years? | |||
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"Ah. Will. I see your mistake. You are quoting from the WTR from 1998. In 2004 they were extended to cover junior doctors. If you see something to do with workers rights on a union website it's normally correct. " But Rachael, you miss the point. Although the WTR was extended to cover junior doctors in 2004, they did not get the full cover offered to most other people, if they did they could not be forced to work 70+ hours a week by managers. Even yesterday while they were on strike managers in 1 hospital declared an emergency and ordered them back to work. As far as I know the only other people in this country that can be forced to return to work by management when off (for whatever reason) are the Police, Fire and Civil Defence and Military. | |||
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"They ain't complaining about the hours they work when they're 'moonlighting' at places like the Nuffield and Spire hospitals ... for big bucks. Junior doctors cannot do private work, only consultants can do that. Junior Doctors will eventually become consultants though ... a bit like when I left school and was an apprentice, did shitty jobs, worked shitty hours but once I qualified I did quite nicely for myself. It's all about starting at the bottom of the pile isn't it ? I'll bet you weren't an apprentice for 15 years though. I do wonder what my landlord and childminder would say when if tell them I can't pay them for a decade. Yes but an apprentice in other types of work don't start on 23k rising up 70k until they become a consultant. No, newly qualified bankers, lawyers, accountants, pilots, architects etc start on much more. No they don't. You're thinking of a very small percentage of people. All of those positions usually have a low starting salary too. Actually, most graduates don't even earn until finishing year 3. Doctors earn £23k at the start of year 3, and go up to close to £30k by the time they're an F2. No they don't - they don't earn while doing their medical degrees, they start to earn when they become an F1, that's when the £23k starts. Which is AFTER their university degree finishes and they get a placement, so it's after 5 or 6 years. They don't get paid on the placements before that. Other graduates finish their degree in 3 or 4 or however many years and get a job and earn straight away. There's no difference. You're wrong. In the new 6 year courses, only 3 years are pre clinical. So on the new courses they'll spend 3 years at university and then the subsequent years they effectively work in hospitals and start getting paid? Sounds a lot like legal training then or accountancy training - and yeah you would expect at least £23k as a graduate salary in those, I work in recruitment. Once they begin their F1 placement, they'll be paid 23k basic. Supplements or overtime can add thousands on top. The year of which they become an F1 depends on length of course. F2 gets 28k basic. Supplements again top it up by around 10k. Not many other industries offer such excellent salaries, they're definitely not to be dismissed as under payment. Yes but are they actually starting their F1 placement after 3 years at university? At the age of 21? If junior doctors are working in hospitals at the age of 21 with the level of a responsibility of an F1 after 3 years doing lectures and tutorials that's a bigger issue than any of this and is a massive change to any of the training that's currently in place. Can you send me a link to the new arrangements please because I've googled it and can't find anything about this. Or is this new degree for graduates with previous relevant degrees who THEN do the 3 years? " No, 22-23 ish. BMA should have details. | |||
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"Ah. Will. I see your mistake. You are quoting from the WTR from 1998. In 2004 they were extended to cover junior doctors. If you see something to do with workers rights on a union website it's normally correct. But Rachael, you miss the point. Although the WTR was extended to cover junior doctors in 2004, they did not get the full cover offered to most other people, if they did they could not be forced to work 70+ hours a week by managers. Even yesterday while they were on strike managers in 1 hospital declared an emergency and ordered them back to work. As far as I know the only other people in this country that can be forced to return to work by management when off (for whatever reason) are the Police, Fire and Civil Defence and Military." You should look for "EWTD for junior doctors How does the EWTD help me?" On Google. It'll explain how doctors are protected and how the BMA supports them. (Interestingly, time spent asleep when on call also counts as working time). | |||
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"Ah. Will. I see your mistake. You are quoting from the WTR from 1998. In 2004 they were extended to cover junior doctors. If you see something to do with workers rights on a union website it's normally correct. But Rachael, you miss the point. Although the WTR was extended to cover junior doctors in 2004, they did not get the full cover offered to most other people, if they did they could not be forced to work 70+ hours a week by managers. Even yesterday while they were on strike managers in 1 hospital declared an emergency and ordered them back to work. As far as I know the only other people in this country that can be forced to return to work by management when off (for whatever reason) are the Police, Fire and Civil Defence and Military." but they are not forced. A doctor decides whether he/she wants to opt out. And would you prefer deaths? The procedures were agreed with the BMA. The BMA had said members should only stop their strike if "NHS England has confirmed and the BMA has agreed - via the agreed escalation process - that a major unpredictable incident is taking place for a specific Trust". | |||
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" Yes but are they actually starting their F1 placement after 3 years at university? At the age of 21? If junior doctors are working in hospitals at the age of 21 with the level of a responsibility of an F1 after 3 years doing lectures and tutorials that's a bigger issue than any of this and is a massive change to any of the training that's currently in place. Can you send me a link to the new arrangements please because I've googled it and can't find anything about this. Or is this new degree for graduates with previous relevant degrees who THEN do the 3 years? No, 22-23 ish. BMA should have details. " I looked on the BMA site already - that just refers to doing a medical degree which is 4/5/6 years, 4 year one only available to those with a relevant first degree, 6 year being the intercalated course, then applying for F1 or F2 placements. They don't get paid instil the F1 stage, although there's an NHS bursary to pay the fees for years 4 and 5 of the normal medical degree (5 and 6 of intercalated). If they're 22 or 23 after 3 years of study then that's not a normal degree open to everyone to apply to like the things your comparing with. But I don't know where you got your information from. | |||
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" but they are not forced. A doctor decides whether he/she wants to opt out. And would you prefer deaths? The procedures were agreed with the BMA. The BMA had said members should only stop their strike if "NHS England has confirmed and the BMA has agreed - via the agreed escalation process - that a major unpredictable incident is taking place for a specific Trust". " Would that be an agreement like the one the government are forcing on them now? Remember that only today the government said that if the BMA dont agree to the contract the government will enforce it on the NHS... There was no major incident yesterday. The managers used the fact that the hospital was close to full (which it had been for the last month) as an excuse to force junior doctors back to work. As for what I would like to see... I would like to see all the profiteering companies that leach off the NHS thrown out and all NHS services provided by the NHS direct. A doing away with the internal market which must cause much duplication of effort and administrative paperwork while removing so much of the NHS's ability to gain from economies of scale, and that money invested in frontline services and care. | |||
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"Fully support them.they need to be more militant walk out and stay out. Fuck the coming in for emergency calls. Fuck Cameron and his plan to stop the right to strike,he is a cunt " Well said. Cameron is an out and out psychopath who won't stop until he's totally screwed up the NHS and every other public service. | |||
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"Must admit I'm a title confused, the junior doctors have been told they need to work longer hours for the same pay..... Their main argument seems to be that having to work longer hours puts patients at risk due to their obvious fatigue, which is understandable, so if they were paid more and did longer hours how does that take the risk to patients out of the equation? Maybe I have not understood the situation ?" The more costly you make it to employ someone to work long unsafe hours the less likely they are to do it It's a financial incentive for employers not to employ doctors to work unsafe hours, take that financial disincentive away and they may well be more likely to get them to do it | |||
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"simple solution .....if you don't like yr job terms or conditions of work....have some balls and quit." They are that's the problem, have you tried to get a GP appointment recently or seen how many locums there are in hospitals! | |||
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"simple solution .....if you don't like yr job terms or conditions of work....have some balls and quit." bit of a strange idea, just bend over when someone wants to fuck you over.. | |||
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"again same answer if someone fs u over show ya gonads and jack....you always have a choice " same when someone wants to nick your car? walks into your gaff, stand back and let them take it..? your conditions of service etc are only loaned to you, often only gained after others took a stand.. | |||
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"There seems to be a bit of a discrepancy, still, in the understand of a 'junior' doctor, and the length of training and perception of doctors pay, so let's clear that up a little. To become a doctor, 5 or 6 years at university is required, where they are not paid, and are only accruing debts of £45000-£56000 in fees and loans to cover living costs. (Most medical students I know live on less than £10000 a year which they beg, borrow and steal from SFE, banks, family, part time jobs etc) So we're currently looking at around £100000 of debt. During that time, working hours are 9-5 weekdays for the most part, plus library time on top. And then there are the students who have to work jobs to earn money. Upon graduation, these fresh-faced students will become doctors on a foundation programme (fy1 and fy2). These used to be called house officers. After two years of that, they enroll on a core and specialty training programme. This can be of varying lengths of time and covers the rest of the time up to consultant level. In old money, these doctors woulf have been known as senior house officers for around the first 4/5/6 years (depending on specialty) and then registrars. These are all junior doctors. In terms of hours worked, the hours are technically EWTD compliant. However, that will not account for the times that they stay after their shift has ended. Not all doctors will do this, granted, but the vast majority will. In terms of pay, it varies a lot. However, I would like to point out that most doctors will not earn £100k at any point. Doctors don't choose an easy career. BUT, do you really think that we would be able to recruit enough medical students if we didn't give them some recompense? Job satisfaction is one thing, but you would be hard pushed to find a doctor who hasn't had at least a handful of complaints against them. Its a career with pros and cons like any other and to judge without an understanding of it is unfair. Although after that huge post, I'd like to point out that the contract issue is in part a highly publicised sign of things to come in government plans for the NHS. Both of us are highly passionate about this topic so we could go on for hours... sorry! " | |||
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"Have been following the first thread and noticed how many keep going on about working hours, and why do doctors think that they deserve more money for working long hours, that they dont have to work those hours (working time directive) and only do it because they are greedy and selfserving... This is a direct copy from the working time directive: Excluded sectors 18. Regulations 4(1) and (2), 6(1), (2) and (7), 7(1), and (6), 8, 10(1), 11(1) and (2), 12(1), 13 and 16 do not apply— (a)to the following sectors of activity— (i)air, rail, road, sea, inland waterway and lake transport; (ii)sea fishing; (iii)other work at sea; or (b)to the activities of doctors in training, or (c)where characteristics peculiar to certain specific services such as the armed forces or the police, or to certain specific activities in the civil protection services, inevitably conflict with the provisions of these Regulations. Would those who believe that the junior doctors do not have a genuine grievance and should have to work more hours for less money like to comment? " . These hours at low pay will be for a small part of a Doctors life . Most members of a profession accept that they will have to work long hours in the initial part of their career in order to establish themselves . My understanding is that the junior Doctors have been offered a pay rise of 11% and a restriction on the hours worked to a maximum of 75 per week. What they have lost are some premium payments for weekend work . Spanish practices are no longer acceptable in most industries , why should Doctors be an exception . The solution to the issue is not to pay Doctors more ,but where necessary ensure that only people who need Doctors actually use them . Many patients could just be treated by nurses . | |||
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"What is being proposed is just another government tactic to make the NHS fail. They want it to fail so that certain areas can be privatised, pathology being one such area. There a a few private companies running NHS hospital labs (especially in London). The doctors are right to strike and show some back bone other professions in the NHS haven't stood up to changes that have been enforced on them. IMO if the junior doctors pay get through, it won't be long before another area of the NHS is being attacked. I agree. I work in A&E. When they take away my 25% anti social hours, my son in his first year as a postman will earn more than me. Odd. I can hold your life in my hands. But it's not worth as much as delivering your junk mail. Gareth " | |||
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"so, junior doctors will do an all-out strike meaning hospitals will be only staffed by Consultants/Non-trainee doctors. reading through the posts, even though the government are trying to make it about pay, i don't know why doctors shouldn't be allowed to be paid more. They do an incredible job. but do people still support an full-walkout strike?" Other countries pay their doctors much more than we do and they don't have an issue with it, they see them as highly qualified professionals with huge responsibilities and deserve to be paid well, why is it our government can't see what they can? | |||
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"I think we all need to understand that junior doctors are not indispensable unlike merchant bankers who are so important to us that we need to open the nations coffers to help them keep their 6 figure twice yearly bonuses. " | |||
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