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"100% support them in their action! "  | |||
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"I support the current industrial action, and I support NHS staff. BUT it's not sustainable in its current setup, given we have an ageing and growing population, people have ever greater expectations and ever reducing ability to take appropriate decisions for themselves. I'd like to be able to explore alternatives without the debate just being shut down as "privatisation" and "American style healthcare" - there are other alternatives. " This is pretty much my opinion too. I should've said I have no problem with the junior doctors striking, and on balance I support them too. Which is one of the reasons I wonder if an alternative should be explored rather than rejected out of hand. | |||
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"I support the current industrial action, and I support NHS staff. BUT it's not sustainable in its current setup, given we have an ageing and growing population, people have ever greater expectations and ever reducing ability to take appropriate decisions for themselves. I'd like to be able to explore alternatives without the debate just being shut down as "privatisation" and "American style healthcare" - there are other alternatives. " Totally agree....but you also need to look at NHS spending and healthcare spending compared to other countries. The government (and all previous over past few decades...so this is NOT party political) have kept telling us HOW MUCH the NHS costs and that it is unsustainable..but check the FACTS. we spend just 8.5% of our GDP on health. This is the SECOND LOWEST proportional spend in the whole of Europe. Only Ireland is slightly lower. This means even poor/broken economies actually spend MORE on health care. If we need full cover 24/7 it can ONLY be done by increasing the numbers of junior doctors....not by making them work longer and longer hours when they are already dead on their feet by the end of stupid shifts (ie back to back 16 hour shifts with a 3 or 4 hour gap between). The "myth" of 11% pay rise out out by Jeremy Cunt doesn't help as it has also been stated that the total wage bill will not rise...how are these things compatible. NHS management and government are not negotiating in good faith. (My daughter is a junior doctor btw...so yes I have a vested interest!) | |||
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"I support the current industrial action, and I support NHS staff. BUT it's not sustainable in its current setup, given we have an ageing and growing population, people have ever greater expectations and ever reducing ability to take appropriate decisions for themselves. I'd like to be able to explore alternatives without the debate just being shut down as "privatisation" and "American style healthcare" - there are other alternatives. " but the "American style healthcare " is the only one being offered as an alternative by this and the previous two governments as they have to keep thier paymasters happy . | |||
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"I support the current industrial action, and I support NHS staff. BUT it's not sustainable in its current setup, given we have an ageing and growing population, people have ever greater expectations and ever reducing ability to take appropriate decisions for themselves. I'd like to be able to explore alternatives without the debate just being shut down as "privatisation" and "American style healthcare" - there are other alternatives. but the "American style healthcare " is the only one being offered as an alternative by this and the previous two governments as they have to keep thier paymasters happy ." I haven't seen any real alternatives suggested, people just seem very unwilling to even consider an alternative. I'm not saying any alternative would be better just think it should be explored. I happily hardly ever use the NHS but I have enough sick family to know it often (by no means always) doesn't work well which must be so frustrating to the people working in it. | |||
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"100% support the strike. Jeremy Cunt and his fellow idiot, backhander taking tories are systematically destroying the NHS and heading us towards privatisation. Unfortunately in the UK there are so many illiterate and thick people who voted for the Tories and UKIP, and are so ignorant to what a lying bunch of Twats the Tories and are. they are so stupid and swayed by the Media and read the Sun, Daily Mail, Mirror etc. If you voted Tory or UKIP your a wanker quite frankly and you have taken this country to the wall!! Its your fault not immigrants or bankers, its you for not having a brain and voting for the destroyers of our economy!!" guess you not a tory then  | |||
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"100% support the strike. Jeremy Cunt and his fellow idiot, backhander taking tories are systematically destroying the NHS and heading us towards privatisation. Unfortunately in the UK there are so many illiterate and thick people who voted for the Tories and UKIP, and are so ignorant to what a lying bunch of Twats the Tories and are. they are so stupid and swayed by the Media and read the Sun, Daily Mail, Mirror etc. If you voted Tory or UKIP your a wanker quite frankly and you have taken this country to the wall!! Its your fault not immigrants or bankers, its you for not having a brain and voting for the destroyers of our economy!!" am far away from ever being a tory supporter but you mention stupid people supporting them being 'swayed by the Mirror'.. assuming you mean the daily mirror which historically supports the left not the tories? just a thought | |||
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"Stop paying the politicians giant salaries and spread the excess round the people working in the sectors that we actually need. Job done!
"{whispers it...} You do realise that the average politician will make less in their career than the average 'junior doctor' don't you? 
Mr ddc | |||
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" Unfortunately in the UK there are so many illiterate and thick people who voted for the Tories and UKIP, and are so ignorant to what a lying bunch of Twats the Tories and are. they are so stupid and swayed by the Media and read the Sun, Daily Mail, Mirror etc. If you voted Tory or UKIP your a wanker quite frankly and you have taken this country to the wall!! Its your fault not immigrants or bankers, its you for not having a brain and voting for the destroyers of our economy!!" # Labour'snextgeneralelectionstrategy? "Vote for us otherwise you're scum" That'll work for sure | |||
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"100% support them in their action! " Exactly this!! I'm NHS and it is vital..  | |||
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"Stop paying the politicians giant salaries and spread the excess round the people working in the sectors that we actually need. Job done!
{whispers it...}
You do realise that the average politician will make less in their career than the average 'junior doctor' don't you?
Mr ddc"I doubt that. MP/ MSP salaries are well above those of junior doctors + politicians have access and time for lucrative extra income. | |||
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"Stop paying the politicians giant salaries and spread the excess round the people working in the sectors that we actually need. Job done!
{whispers it...}
You do realise that the average politician will make less in their career than the average 'junior doctor' don't you?
Mr ddc
I doubt that. MP/ MSP salaries are well above those of junior doctors + politicians have access and time for lucrative extra income."I read a post on FB last night from a junior doctor who talked through her ten hour day and explained that after tax, parking, childcare etc. she earned £87 for her day. That's all wrong and I'm willing to bet that Mr Cameron earned more for sitting on his arse 'running the country'. | |||
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"I support the current industrial action, and I support NHS staff. BUT it's not sustainable in its current setup, given we have an ageing and growing population, people have ever greater expectations and ever reducing ability to take appropriate decisions for themselves. I'd like to be able to explore alternatives without the debate just being shut down as "privatisation" and "American style healthcare" - there are other alternatives. " Can you list an alternative system, that produces good outcomes, and for a % of GDP equal to or less than we spend now and which country that works in then? | |||
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"A privatised health service is dumb. Unless you wish for a shorter life and greater injustice. The USA model is appalling. We don't pay enough into our healthcare here as a proportion of our GDP." As I said in previous post.....Italy, Greece, Spain....even Eastern European countries all pay more as a share of GDP! | |||
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"I read a post on FB last night from a junior doctor who talked through her ten hour day and explained that after tax, parking, childcare etc. she earned £87 for her day. That's all wrong and I'm willing to bet that Mr Cameron earned more for sitting on his arse 'running the country'. "That's terrible! ('mock horror' emoji) Though, if you think about it, I doubt the hospital cleaner makes that gross, let alone after tax, travel, childcare..... Plus they won't be potentially earning £100k plus in a few years time. (Nor will most MPs) Perhaps we could make the cleaners pay more tax so that we can afford to give the junior doctors more? Don't the socialists rather lose the plot once they start standing up for the wealthiest in society instead of the poorest? | |||
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"I read a post on FB last night from a junior doctor who talked through her ten hour day and explained that after tax, parking, childcare etc. she earned £87 for her day. That's all wrong and I'm willing to bet that Mr Cameron earned more for sitting on his arse 'running the country'.
That's terrible! ('mock horror' emoji)
Though, if you think about it, I doubt the hospital cleaner makes that gross, let alone after tax, travel, childcare..... Plus they won't be potentially earning £100k plus in a few years time. (Nor will most MPs)
Perhaps we could make the cleaners pay more tax so that we can afford to give the junior doctors more?
Don't the socialists rather lose the plot once they start standing up for the wealthiest in society instead of the poorest?"But they won't get tax as much and get help from working tax credits ect and help with childcare. Dr have studied for at least 7 years and continue to have to do exams and study through out their careers. The strike isn't about pay its about being safe so they can do their best for their patents | |||
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"I read a post on FB last night from a junior doctor who talked through her ten hour day and explained that after tax, parking, childcare etc. she earned £87 for her day. That's all wrong and I'm willing to bet that Mr Cameron earned more for sitting on his arse 'running the country'.
That's terrible! ('mock horror' emoji)
Though, if you think about it, I doubt the hospital cleaner makes that gross, let alone after tax, travel, childcare..... Plus they won't be potentially earning £100k plus in a few years time. (Nor will most MPs)
Perhaps we could make the cleaners pay more tax so that we can afford to give the junior doctors more?
Don't the socialists rather lose the plot once they start standing up for the wealthiest in society instead of the poorest?"I could be wrong but I don't imagine it takes seven years of student debt to be a cleaner. I guess I just think pay should be in accordance with the job. Although I'm not saying that out loud in my work!
I don't know what the answer is but I'd much rather the money wasted on shite was spent more wisely. | |||
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"I read a post on FB last night from a junior doctor who talked through her ten hour day and explained that after tax, parking, childcare etc. she earned £87 for her day. That's all wrong and I'm willing to bet that Mr Cameron earned more for sitting on his arse 'running the country'.
That's terrible! ('mock horror' emoji)
Though, if you think about it, I doubt the hospital cleaner makes that gross, let alone after tax, travel, childcare..... Plus they won't be potentially earning £100k plus in a few years time. (Nor will most MPs)
Perhaps we could make the cleaners pay more tax so that we can afford to give the junior doctors more?
Don't the socialists rather lose the plot once they start standing up for the wealthiest in society instead of the poorest?"Also thinking that cleaners font work 80 hours a week including back to back 16 hour shifts with patients lives directly in their hands towards the end of the shift. The strike is NOT about pay. It is about eroding conditions of work. How do you get more hours of cover, out of the same number of doctors unless they HAVE to work more hours....this on top of the crazy and dangerous hours they already work. This is about removing the (already very limited) protection they currently have. It is about patient safety...mine and yours! Folks can feel free to PM me for an actual case involving my own junior doctor daughter towards the end of 28 hours solidly on duty. | |||
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" The strike isn't about pay its about being safe so they can do their best for their patents " They lost the argument about it not being about pay when they offered to accept the new contracts for more money. The lost the argument about patient care when they walked out and left patients to suffer. Maybe I'm a gullible fool, but I don't believe any politician seeks office purely to cause suffering. | |||
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" The strike isn't about pay its about being safe so they can do their best for their patents They lost the argument about it not being about pay when they offered to accept the new contracts for more money. The lost the argument about patient care when they walked out and left patients to suffer. Maybe I'm a gullible fool, but I don't believe any politician seeks office purely to cause suffering. " No patients are suffering. All patients are actually getting a better service because they are all being seen by consultants and GPs today. | |||
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" The strike isn't about pay its about being safe so they can do their best for their patents They lost the argument about it not being about pay when they offered to accept the new contracts for more money. The lost the argument about patient care when they walked out and left patients to suffer. Maybe I'm a gullible fool, but I don't believe any politician seeks office purely to cause suffering. " They have t put parients in danger with the walk out. Senior dr support them and have come in to cover them. You need to see the actual contract offer to them will really mean a pay cut! Get all facts and not just the papers opinion | |||
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"Junior doctors working in the NHS are very far from "the wealthiest in society". The Government is banking on attitudes like this to divide and rule. This is a intentionally destabilising and ideological attack on the NHS as a whole - if the doctors lose this dispute then nurses, porters and cleaners will be next. " | |||
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" They have t put parients in danger with the walk out. Senior dr support them and have come in to cover them. You need to see the actual contract offer to them will really mean a pay cut! Get all facts and not just the papers opinion " ^This | |||
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"Stop paying the politicians giant salaries and spread the excess round the people working in the sectors that we actually need. Job done!
{whispers it...}
You do realise that the average politician will make less in their career than the average 'junior doctor' don't you?
Mr ddc
I doubt that. MP/ MSP salaries are well above those of junior doctors + politicians have access and time for lucrative extra income.
I read a post on FB last night from a junior doctor who talked through her ten hour day and explained that after tax, parking, childcare etc. she earned £87 for her day. That's all wrong and I'm willing to bet that Mr Cameron earned more for sitting on his arse 'running the country'. "We could all have that whinge though. When I go back to work after maternity leave it's going to cost me £1200 a month in childcare, with petrol etc factored in I doubt I'll have £200 a month in my pocket - before a bill comes out. But if my profession strikes there is hardly any public support as people have to take the day off work. | |||
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"Stop paying the politicians giant salaries and spread the excess round the people working in the sectors that we actually need. Job done!
{whispers it...}
You do realise that the average politician will make less in their career than the average 'junior doctor' don't you?
Mr ddc
I doubt that. MP/ MSP salaries are well above those of junior doctors + politicians have access and time for lucrative extra income.
I read a post on FB last night from a junior doctor who talked through her ten hour day and explained that after tax, parking, childcare etc. she earned £87 for her day. That's all wrong and I'm willing to bet that Mr Cameron earned more for sitting on his arse 'running the country'. "£20k a year after taxes and bills is a lot of loose change. | |||
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"Junior doctors working in the NHS are very far from "the wealthiest in society". " Really? "Very far"? Bearing in mind I was talking whole-career comparisons? But even ignoring 'average wage', isn't anyone on higher rate tax considered wealthy? (According to the Labour Party) | |||
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"Junior doctors working in the NHS are very far from "the wealthiest in society". Really? "Very far"? Bearing in mind I was talking whole-career comparisons? But even ignoring 'average wage', isn't anyone on higher rate tax considered wealthy? (According to the Labour Party)" You've kind of shot yourself in the foot there, with that last bit in the parentheses. Lol. | |||
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"Just finished my shift early because my daughter has been taken into hospital with high blood pressure. No one has suffered today on my ward everyone nurses and the doctors have come together like we do every single time there is a crisis to avoid any suffer ring it's what we do best. the NHS is ours Free at the point of need from the cradle to the grave. Please stop slating us. The Doctors are out to protect patient care not to make money. I for one salute them x" | |||
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" Please stop slating us. The Doctors are out to protect patient care not to make money. I for one salute them x" I'm certain not slating anyone. But someone needs to play Devil's Advocate so that we have a sensible discussion, otherwise we just get millions of people stating "I'd gladly pay more tax", before voting for the other ones.... | |||
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"Just finished my shift early because my daughter has been taken into hospital with high blood pressure. No one has suffered today on my ward everyone nurses and the doctors have come together like we do every single time there is a crisis to avoid any suffer ring it's what we do best. the NHS is ours Free at the point of need from the cradle to the grave. Please stop slating us. The Doctors are out to protect patient care not to make money. I for one salute them x" The overworked reason for striking is fine, however so many junior doctors are going on the record as being underpaid. It's out of touch. | |||
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" Please stop slating us. The Doctors are out to protect patient care not to make money. I for one salute them x I'm certain not slating anyone. But someone needs to play Devil's Advocate so that we have a sensible discussion, otherwise we just get millions of people stating "I'd gladly pay more tax", before voting for the other ones...." It's a logical fallacy that a devil's advocate is always "needed". It's like if you said "Doctors shouldn't be forced to work unreasonable hours" and the response was, "Yeah, but for the purposes of a fair argument, what if they should?" it's just a dickish argument lol | |||
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"Just finished my shift early because my daughter has been taken into hospital with high blood pressure. No one has suffered today on my ward everyone nurses and the doctors have come together like we do every single time there is a crisis to avoid any suffer ring it's what we do best. the NHS is ours Free at the point of need from the cradle to the grave. Please stop slating us. The Doctors are out to protect patient care not to make money. I for one salute them x" Thats all very well but lets not be naive. Some of the key issues revolve around pay. Its as simple as that. Junior docs are doing what all of us would do if we had the power..we would fight to preserve what we have and if possible, get more. They are fighting to retain premium rates for what they believe are antisocial hours and they are fighting to preserve automatic annual increments to pay. | |||
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"Just finished my shift early because my daughter has been taken into hospital with high blood pressure. No one has suffered today on my ward everyone nurses and the doctors have come together like we do every single time there is a crisis to avoid any suffer ring it's what we do best. the NHS is ours Free at the point of need from the cradle to the grave. Please stop slating us. The Doctors are out to protect patient care not to make money. I for one salute them x The overworked reason for striking is fine, however so many junior doctors are going on the record as being underpaid. It's out of touch. " They have not said underpaid on any article, news item or quote I have seen anywhere...even in the Tory rags! What they are facing is extra hours without any increase (which they don't want...what they need is higher staffing levels). This then amounts to a pay cut (on a per hour basis) which could amount to as much as 30%. My daughter is a Junior Doctor....currently working 70+ hours a week for £23k gross...before taxes etc...... And on top of this is expected to study to pass postgrad exams to progress in her career. She knew this before she started University seven years back.....but the goal posts are now being shifted! | |||
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" The lost the argument about patient care when they walked out and left patients to suffer. " actually they agreed to provide emergency cover for those very same patients... which is why they asked about a third of the junior doctors who could have been striking today not to and to report as usual...... | |||
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"Just finished my shift early because my daughter has been taken into hospital with high blood pressure. No one has suffered today on my ward everyone nurses and the doctors have come together like we do every single time there is a crisis to avoid any suffer ring it's what we do best. the NHS is ours Free at the point of need from the cradle to the grave. Please stop slating us. The Doctors are out to protect patient care not to make money. I for one salute them x The overworked reason for striking is fine, however so many junior doctors are going on the record as being underpaid. It's out of touch. They have not said underpaid on any article, news item or quote I have seen anywhere...even in the Tory rags! What they are facing is extra hours without any increase (which they don't want...what they need is higher staffing levels). This then amounts to a pay cut (on a per hour basis) which could amount to as much as 30%. My daughter is a Junior Doctor....currently working 70+ hours a week for £23k gross...before taxes etc...... And on top of this is expected to study to pass postgrad exams to progress in her career. She knew this before she started University seven years back.....but the goal posts are now being shifted!" Telegraph, BBC, Daily Mail, BBC inter_iews. Perhaps google it. Also this has been an issue before 2000 (7 day week proposals and 70+ hours). Your daughter clearly didn't make an informed decision about becoming a doctor. | |||
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" Please stop slating us. The Doctors are out to protect patient care not to make money. I for one salute them x I'm certain not slating anyone. But someone needs to play Devil's Advocate so that we have a sensible discussion, otherwise we just get millions of people stating "I'd gladly pay more tax", before voting for the other ones.... It's a logical fallacy that a devil's advocate is always "needed". It's like if you said "Doctors shouldn't be forced to work unreasonable hours" and the response was, "Yeah, but for the purposes of a fair argument, what if they should?" it's just a dickish argument lol" No, the sensible Devil's Advocate would start small: "but surely there would be times of extreme emergency when longer hours would be necessary?" Or they might say "perhaps not longer hours, but how about reducing the hours they work during quiet periods, and switching them to the busier times, but making this switch cheaper by paying them basic wages instead of overtime rates, but increasing basic wages by 11% in order to compensate for the difference"? (Or have I misunderstood the reality?) | |||
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" The lost the argument about patient care when they walked out and left patients to suffer. actually they agreed to provide emergency cover for those very same patients... which is why they asked about a third of the junior doctors who could have been striking today not to and to report as usual......" I suspect at least a handful of the thousands who had their operations cancelled would feel they are now suffering as a result. | |||
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"I'm a nurse who works 13 hour shifts nights and weekends. 13 hour shifts during the week are not counted as antisocial. I regularly stay on for free. I work along side doctors who do the same. I am verbally and at time physically abused. Walk a mile in my shoes before you make any judgements " Why would everyone need to be a nurse to understand? It's your choice to be one, it seems bizarre to consider yourself some kind of martyr for doing something you want to do. Surely if it's that awful, you'd change career. Also 13 hour days really aren't uncommon in private sector roles. | |||
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" Please stop slating us. The Doctors are out to protect patient care not to make money. I for one salute them x I'm certain not slating anyone. But someone needs to play Devil's Advocate so that we have a sensible discussion, otherwise we just get millions of people stating "I'd gladly pay more tax", before voting for the other ones.... It's a logical fallacy that a devil's advocate is always "needed". It's like if you said "Doctors shouldn't be forced to work unreasonable hours" and the response was, "Yeah, but for the purposes of a fair argument, what if they should?" it's just a dickish argument lol No, the sensible Devil's Advocate would start small: "but surely there would be times of extreme emergency when longer hours would be necessary?" Or they might say "perhaps not longer hours, but how about reducing the hours they work during quiet periods, and switching them to the busier times, but making this switch cheaper by paying them basic wages instead of overtime rates, but increasing basic wages by 11% in order to compensate for the difference"? (Or have I misunderstood the reality?)" Well, either you or the 98% of junior doctors who democratically voted against the proposals | |||
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"Had to re read my post and no never used the word Martyr. I also don't think I'm the only one who understands because I'm a nurse. " You said people need to walk in your shoes before passing judgment, which is ridiculous and insular. And painting your role as so difficult because of your assaults or long hours suggests you consider yourself a martyr for it. It's unrelated to the doctor's strike anyway. | |||
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" Well, either you or the 98% of junior doctors who democratically voted against the proposals "But haven't they stated they would accept the new contracts, but they want more than the 11%? Which rather shoots everything else in the foot, and which is where I came in.... | |||
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"I'm a nurse who works 13 hour shifts nights and weekends. 13 hour shifts during the week are not counted as antisocial. I regularly stay on for free. I work along side doctors who do the same. I am verbally and at time physically abused. Walk a mile in my shoes before you make any judgements " I'd rather tackle the abuse than pay you extra to accept it. | |||
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"I have been struck lately with how sacrosanct the NHS seems to be regarded by some. I have close family and friends who work in the NHS as doctors, nurses and midwives, they all work amazingly hard and are very special people. This thread is not to bash them, not the NHS. But I do wonder if we should explore alternatives. What are people's thoughts? This isn't an angry thread or one to provoke reactions, just a genuine question. " There is only 1 alternative to a publicly funded NHS and that is private funded healthcare. The USA is the perfect example of how that system works, 1 in 4 US citizens cannot afford healthcare insurance. I'll keep the NHS thank you. | |||
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"100% support them in their action! " This | |||
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"I'm a nurse who works 13 hour shifts nights and weekends. 13 hour shifts during the week are not counted as antisocial. I regularly stay on for free. I work along side doctors who do the same. I am verbally and at time physically abused. Walk a mile in my shoes before you make any judgements Why would everyone need to be a nurse to understand? It's your choice to be one, it seems bizarre to consider yourself some kind of martyr for doing something you want to do. Surely if it's that awful, you'd change career. Also 13 hour days really aren't uncommon in private sector roles. " There are often 24 hour days in my sector, not for me I might add, they can shove that right up their arse but I work in a law firm and there are indeed long days that run into the next and whilst they don't pick up overtime I can't bet my arse they get it back tenfold in their bonuses and salaries. You cannot compare the private sector to public. It just isn't a viable comparison. I don't imagine it is in nursing either. | |||
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"I'm a nurse who works 13 hour shifts nights and weekends. 13 hour shifts during the week are not counted as antisocial. I regularly stay on for free. I work along side doctors who do the same. I am verbally and at time physically abused. Walk a mile in my shoes before you make any judgements Why would everyone need to be a nurse to understand? It's your choice to be one, it seems bizarre to consider yourself some kind of martyr for doing something you want to do. Surely if it's that awful, you'd change career. Also 13 hour days really aren't uncommon in private sector roles. There are often 24 hour days in my sector, not for me I might add, they can shove that right up their arse but I work in a law firm and there are indeed long days that run into the next and whilst they don't pick up overtime I can't bet my arse they get it back tenfold in their bonuses and salaries. You cannot compare the private sector to public. It just isn't a viable comparison. I don't imagine it is in nursing either. " Why not? | |||
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"I'm a nurse who works 13 hour shifts nights and weekends. 13 hour shifts during the week are not counted as antisocial. I regularly stay on for free. I work along side doctors who do the same. I am verbally and at time physically abused. Walk a mile in my shoes before you make any judgements Why would everyone need to be a nurse to understand? It's your choice to be one, it seems bizarre to consider yourself some kind of martyr for doing something you want to do. Surely if it's that awful, you'd change career. Also 13 hour days really aren't uncommon in private sector roles. There are often 24 hour days in my sector, not for me I might add, they can shove that right up their arse but I work in a law firm and there are indeed long days that run into the next and whilst they don't pick up overtime I can't bet my arse they get it back tenfold in their bonuses and salaries. You cannot compare the private sector to public. It just isn't a viable comparison. I don't imagine it is in nursing either. Why not? " Why not what? | |||
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"I'm a nurse who works 13 hour shifts nights and weekends. 13 hour shifts during the week are not counted as antisocial. I regularly stay on for free. I work along side doctors who do the same. I am verbally and at time physically abused. Walk a mile in my shoes before you make any judgements Why would everyone need to be a nurse to understand? It's your choice to be one, it seems bizarre to consider yourself some kind of martyr for doing something you want to do. Surely if it's that awful, you'd change career. Also 13 hour days really aren't uncommon in private sector roles. There are often 24 hour days in my sector, not for me I might add, they can shove that right up their arse but I work in a law firm and there are indeed long days that run into the next and whilst they don't pick up overtime I can't bet my arse they get it back tenfold in their bonuses and salaries. You cannot compare the private sector to public. It just isn't a viable comparison. I don't imagine it is in nursing either. Why not? Why not what? " Why can't comparing long hours in private sectors be compared to working in the NHS? | |||
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" Well, either you or the 98% of junior doctors who democratically voted against the proposals
But haven't they stated they would accept the new contracts, but they want more than the 11%?
Which rather shoots everything else in the foot, and which is where I came in...."I am unaware of that, but don't really understand the point that you are trying to make? Unless it is these greedy doctors aren't really concerned for patient welfare, but are justifying lining their own troughs - whilst all the time those poor honest politicians are just trying to be fair to the cleaners? p.s. I often drive past that roundabout in Chesterfield on my way to work (in a hospital) and always think of you guys | |||
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"My first suggestion is we stop misusing the service. Refusing to go home because your just not feeling being alone ( and I'm not even talking the elderly). Going to A&E with a headache or toothache. Demanding transport because your family don't finish work till 6 and you have be told you have a right to it . I'm not saying this because I have read in a trashy newspaper but because I see with my own eyes day in day out " | |||
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" Why can't comparing long hours in private sectors be compared to working in the NHS? " Obviously, it's only my opinion, but I'm pretty sure that if a lawyer fucks up a document it can be fixed (probably at a financial cost) but if a doctor fucks up on a patient for example, I'd guess that could be life or death. I know I'd rather not have an exhausted doctor cut me open... In terms of financial gain, the comparison of the hourly rate would, I guess, be a pretty huge difference in the two. If I can help it, I'll never go back to working in the public sector. Apart from the financial differences, the perks, the holidays, the lack of germs, I'm treated like a person. I'm not a number. I'm not another statistic. I know everyone in my firm and I like what I do. What's sometimes missing, I suspect, is the satisfaction that I've been able to help someone with my day. I miss that part of working for the NHS but none of the rest. Although it was a long time ago now, it doesn't appear to have got any better. However, that's the sacrifice I make to have all the things I do enjoy in my working life. I get paid a whole lot more than a junior doctor and here I am mincing around in a swinging site and my employers are entirely cool with that. I'm good at what I do and I put in more than I need to. I'm also 100% behind the doctors striking because they've arranged for agency staff to cover them to make the point that they feel needs to be addressed. If they don't speak up for themselves, who will? | |||
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" I am unaware of that, but don't really understand the point that you are trying to make? Unless it is these greedy doctors aren't really concerned for patient welfare, but are justifying lining their own troughs - whilst all the time those poor honest politicians are just trying to be fair to the cleaners? " Nah, I'm far too cynical to believe either press releases from the DoH nor facebook posts from union reps. I suspect the truth is somewhere in between and I just wish we could skip to that bit without all the posturing. | |||
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" Why can't comparing long hours in private sectors be compared to working in the NHS? Obviously, it's only my opinion, but I'm pretty sure that if a lawyer fucks up a document it can be fixed (probably at a financial cost) but if a doctor fucks up on a patient for example, I'd guess that could be life or death. I know I'd rather not have an exhausted doctor cut me open... In terms of financial gain, the comparison of the hourly rate would, I guess, be a pretty huge difference in the two. If I can help it, I'll never go back to working in the public sector. Apart from the financial differences, the perks, the holidays, the lack of germs, I'm treated like a person. I'm not a number. I'm not another statistic. I know everyone in my firm and I like what I do. What's sometimes missing, I suspect, is the satisfaction that I've been able to help someone with my day. I miss that part of working for the NHS but none of the rest. Although it was a long time ago now, it doesn't appear to have got any better. However, that's the sacrifice I make to have all the things I do enjoy in my working life. I get paid a whole lot more than a junior doctor and here I am mincing around in a swinging site and my employers are entirely cool with that. I'm good at what I do and I put in more than I need to. I'm also 100% behind the doctors striking because they've arranged for agency staff to cover them to make the point that they feel needs to be addressed. If they don't speak up for themselves, who will? " There's several private sector roles that can affect the lives of other people (for example, engineering where you've 48 hour shifts to fix a broken down pressure vessel and you've a compromised chemical input) and yourself. Not all private sector roles are desk based. I don't think 13 hours is long enough to really compromise your functionality either, it just has a negative effect on your social life. This should be considered before studying though. Also, £23k for a new graduate (who I wouldn't trust to treat me on their own, without being overseen by someone who has completed their training) is a big salary. Plus willing to do the contracts for 11% and extra benefits (like extra pay for unsociable hours) seems a little off. You're either a danger or you're not. It all seems so greed motivated after the most recent negotiation fell through. | |||
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" Why can't comparing long hours in private sectors be compared to working in the NHS? Obviously, it's only my opinion, but I'm pretty sure that if a lawyer fucks up a document it can be fixed (probably at a financial cost) but if a doctor fucks up on a patient for example, I'd guess that could be life or death. I know I'd rather not have an exhausted doctor cut me open... In terms of financial gain, the comparison of the hourly rate would, I guess, be a pretty huge difference in the two. If I can help it, I'll never go back to working in the public sector. Apart from the financial differences, the perks, the holidays, the lack of germs, I'm treated like a person. I'm not a number. I'm not another statistic. I know everyone in my firm and I like what I do. What's sometimes missing, I suspect, is the satisfaction that I've been able to help someone with my day. I miss that part of working for the NHS but none of the rest. Although it was a long time ago now, it doesn't appear to have got any better. However, that's the sacrifice I make to have all the things I do enjoy in my working life. I get paid a whole lot more than a junior doctor and here I am mincing around in a swinging site and my employers are entirely cool with that. I'm good at what I do and I put in more than I need to. I'm also 100% behind the doctors striking because they've arranged for agency staff to cover them to make the point that they feel needs to be addressed. If they don't speak up for themselves, who will? There's several private sector roles that can affect the lives of other people (for example, engineering where you've 48 hour shifts to fix a broken down pressure vessel and you've a compromised chemical input) and yourself. Not all private sector roles are desk based. I don't think 13 hours is long enough to really compromise your functionality either, it just has a negative effect on your social life. This should be considered before studying though. Also, £23k for a new graduate (who I wouldn't trust to treat me on their own, without being overseen by someone who has completed their training) is a big salary. Plus willing to do the contracts for 11% and extra benefits (like extra pay for unsociable hours) seems a little off. You're either a danger or you're not. It all seems so greed motivated after the most recent negotiation fell through. " Forgive I'm am just a poor simple man...so what you are saying is...the long hours worked makes them a danger to the public...but if you bung them a few quid all of a sudden they are not a danger. | |||
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" Why can't comparing long hours in private sectors be compared to working in the NHS? Obviously, it's only my opinion, but I'm pretty sure that if a lawyer fucks up a document it can be fixed (probably at a financial cost) but if a doctor fucks up on a patient for example, I'd guess that could be life or death. I know I'd rather not have an exhausted doctor cut me open... In terms of financial gain, the comparison of the hourly rate would, I guess, be a pretty huge difference in the two. If I can help it, I'll never go back to working in the public sector. Apart from the financial differences, the perks, the holidays, the lack of germs, I'm treated like a person. I'm not a number. I'm not another statistic. I know everyone in my firm and I like what I do. What's sometimes missing, I suspect, is the satisfaction that I've been able to help someone with my day. I miss that part of working for the NHS but none of the rest. Although it was a long time ago now, it doesn't appear to have got any better. However, that's the sacrifice I make to have all the things I do enjoy in my working life. I get paid a whole lot more than a junior doctor and here I am mincing around in a swinging site and my employers are entirely cool with that. I'm good at what I do and I put in more than I need to. I'm also 100% behind the doctors striking because they've arranged for agency staff to cover them to make the point that they feel needs to be addressed. If they don't speak up for themselves, who will? There's several private sector roles that can affect the lives of other people (for example, engineering where you've 48 hour shifts to fix a broken down pressure vessel and you've a compromised chemical input) and yourself. Not all private sector roles are desk based. I don't think 13 hours is long enough to really compromise your functionality either, it just has a negative effect on your social life. This should be considered before studying though. Also, £23k for a new graduate (who I wouldn't trust to treat me on their own, without being overseen by someone who has completed their training) is a big salary. Plus willing to do the contracts for 11% and extra benefits (like extra pay for unsociable hours) seems a little off. You're either a danger or you're not. It all seems so greed motivated after the most recent negotiation fell through. Forgive I'm am just a poor simple man...so what you are saying is...the long hours worked makes them a danger to the public...but if you bung them a few quid all of a sudden they are not a danger." Yes, that is how I've interpreted their rejection of the recent negotiation attempt. They want 11% and extra benefits (financial mainly) to agree to the new contracts. | |||
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" Why can't comparing long hours in private sectors be compared to working in the NHS? Obviously, it's only my opinion, but I'm pretty sure that if a lawyer fucks up a document it can be fixed (probably at a financial cost) but if a doctor fucks up on a patient for example, I'd guess that could be life or death. I know I'd rather not have an exhausted doctor cut me open... In terms of financial gain, the comparison of the hourly rate would, I guess, be a pretty huge difference in the two. If I can help it, I'll never go back to working in the public sector. Apart from the financial differences, the perks, the holidays, the lack of germs, I'm treated like a person. I'm not a number. I'm not another statistic. I know everyone in my firm and I like what I do. What's sometimes missing, I suspect, is the satisfaction that I've been able to help someone with my day. I miss that part of working for the NHS but none of the rest. Although it was a long time ago now, it doesn't appear to have got any better. However, that's the sacrifice I make to have all the things I do enjoy in my working life. I get paid a whole lot more than a junior doctor and here I am mincing around in a swinging site and my employers are entirely cool with that. I'm good at what I do and I put in more than I need to. I'm also 100% behind the doctors striking because they've arranged for agency staff to cover them to make the point that they feel needs to be addressed. If they don't speak up for themselves, who will? There's several private sector roles that can affect the lives of other people (for example, engineering where you've 48 hour shifts to fix a broken down pressure vessel and you've a compromised chemical input) and yourself. Not all private sector roles are desk based. I don't think 13 hours is long enough to really compromise your functionality either, it just has a negative effect on your social life. This should be considered before studying though. Also, £23k for a new graduate (who I wouldn't trust to treat me on their own, without being overseen by someone who has completed their training) is a big salary. Plus willing to do the contracts for 11% and extra benefits (like extra pay for unsociable hours) seems a little off. You're either a danger or you're not. It all seems so greed motivated after the most recent negotiation fell through. Forgive I'm am just a poor simple man...so what you are saying is...the long hours worked makes them a danger to the public...but if you bung them a few quid all of a sudden they are not a danger. Yes, that is how I've interpreted their rejection of the recent negotiation attempt. They want 11% and extra benefits (financial mainly) to agree to the new contracts." I'm with it now..only just got up,I'm on the night shift..still coming round with my first brew | |||
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"There's several private sector roles that can affect the lives of other people (for example, engineering where you've 48 hour shifts to fix a broken down pressure vessel and you've a compromised chemical input) and yourself. Not all private sector roles are desk based. I don't think 13 hours is long enough to really compromise your functionality either, it just has a negative effect on your social life. This should be considered before studying though. Also, £23k for a new graduate (who I wouldn't trust to treat me on their own, without being overseen by someone who has completed their training) is a big salary. Plus willing to do the contracts for 11% and extra benefits (like extra pay for unsociable hours) seems a little off. You're either a danger or you're not. It all seems so greed motivated after the most recent negotiation fell through. " Of course there are private sector roles that can affect the lives of others. That wasn't the comparison though, or not as I understood what you meant by your initial comment. I'm pretty sure pilots for example aren't paid from government money. They have other people's lives in their hands. There are regulations in place though. I'm guessing a pilot isn't allowed to work for extended periods. Bit like truck drivers. Why is it okay for doctors to work for extended periods? Compare NHS to Bupa... what happens when all those lovely nurses and doctors who have to put up with the terms our government dish out give up and go work for private companies? What use is an NHS with no staff? What about mental health? What about geriatrics? It costs more to keep someone in prison for a week than it does for a pensioner in a care home. It's all wrong I tell you!
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"No the 11% is after they have cut the unsociable pay so that actually works out as a pay cut! What they want is for their unsociable hours times not to change and the amount of rest between shifts. I've a great poster picture that explains it but can't upload it here as it hasn't got me in the picture. http://www.patientsource.co.uk/news/2015-11-29/why-patientsource-is-supporting-the-junior-doctors" It's bringing them in line with others like the police. I don't know why they deserve more money. | |||
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"No the 11% is after they have cut the unsociable pay so that actually works out as a pay cut! What they want is for their unsociable hours times not to change and the amount of rest between shifts. I've a great poster picture that explains it but can't upload it here as it hasn't got me in the picture. http://www.patientsource.co.uk/news/2015-11-29/why-patientsource-is-supporting-the-junior-doctors It's bringing them in line with others like the police. I don't know why they deserve more money. " Because they have trained for 7 years and continue throughout their careers and they save life's!!! | |||
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"No the 11% is after they have cut the unsociable pay so that actually works out as a pay cut! What they want is for their unsociable hours times not to change and the amount of rest between shifts. I've a great poster picture that explains it but can't upload it here as it hasn't got me in the picture. http://www.patientsource.co.uk/news/2015-11-29/why-patientsource-is-supporting-the-junior-doctors It's bringing them in line with others like the police. I don't know why they deserve more money. Because they have trained for 7 years and continue throughout their careers and they save life's!!! " The police save lives and put themselves in great danger to do so. The fire service risk their lives every day and don't even get unsociable pay. We have many public sector workers who constantly train throughout their careers. I don't think doctors are a special case. | |||
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"No the 11% is after they have cut the unsociable pay so that actually works out as a pay cut! What they want is for their unsociable hours times not to change and the amount of rest between shifts. I've a great poster picture that explains it but can't upload it here as it hasn't got me in the picture. http://www.patientsource.co.uk/news/2015-11-29/why-patientsource-is-supporting-the-junior-doctors It's bringing them in line with others like the police. I don't know why they deserve more money. Because they have trained for 7 years and continue throughout their careers and they save life's!!! The police save lives and put themselves in great danger to do so. The fire service risk their lives every day and don't even get unsociable pay. We have many public sector workers who constantly train throughout their careers. I don't think doctors are a special case. " the police know basic first aid! They don't save life's, upmost respect for them and yes can be dangerous job but they don't study for 7 years and then could lose their jobs and be put into prison for one mistake. The fire service don't often have life risking calls everyday (I know some) and they get to sleep when not on a job. Dr don't. Other public workers apart from nurses do not have to continue to train to keep their job. They choose to. When you have worked with, known or been any of these roles you know what the other one does. The majority support them because they know what shit they put up with. The strikes would never of happened without the government trying to make their life's and patients worse. Dr didn't go to them first. | |||
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"There's several private sector roles that can affect the lives of other people (for example, engineering where you've 48 hour shifts to fix a broken down pressure vessel and you've a compromised chemical input) and yourself. Not all private sector roles are desk based. I don't think 13 hours is long enough to really compromise your functionality either, it just has a negative effect on your social life. This should be considered before studying though. Also, £23k for a new graduate (who I wouldn't trust to treat me on their own, without being overseen by someone who has completed their training) is a big salary. Plus willing to do the contracts for 11% and extra benefits (like extra pay for unsociable hours) seems a little off. You're either a danger or you're not. It all seems so greed motivated after the most recent negotiation fell through. Of course there are private sector roles that can affect the lives of others. That wasn't the comparison though, or not as I understood what you meant by your initial comment. I'm pretty sure pilots for example aren't paid from government money. They have other people's lives in their hands. There are regulations in place though. I'm guessing a pilot isn't allowed to work for extended periods. Bit like truck drivers. Why is it okay for doctors to work for extended periods? Compare NHS to Bupa... what happens when all those lovely nurses and doctors who have to put up with the terms our government dish out give up and go work for private companies? What use is an NHS with no staff? What about mental health? What about geriatrics? It costs more to keep someone in prison for a week than it does for a pensioner in a care home. It's all wrong I tell you!
"I think this is why comparisons to private sector are important. Pilots can't fly for extended periods of time due to limitations (fuel tanks size, ATC involvement). Truck drivers also have to break. Doctors also get breaks, and aren't in back breaking surgery for 12 hours day. The BMA doesn't want them doing more than 48 hours a week at most. Also claiming they'll accept new contracts for greater financial compensation doesn't seem like they truly believe they'll be a huge detrimental risk. I do use private health care now as I can afford it, I think everyone who can should. Junior doctors can't just jump ship to private, they have to complete training within the NHS and be a registered specialist to join private health care. Plus if you're not doing enough, you're meant to fulfil your free time with NHS duties, and the code of practice is there to protect NHS patients from being disadvantaged. | |||
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" Because they have trained for 7 years and continue throughout their careers and they save life's!!! " So do Chartered Civil Engineers. (Actually longer) I also once read that Civil Engineers save more lives than Doctors, (but admittedly I think it was in an article published by the Institution of Civil Engineers, so probably about as unbiased as a chart from a group of junior doctors...  )
AND the longest shift I did was 36 hours....
(AND you wouldn't believe the abuse you get from the public, especially if you're the one in charge of the temporary traffic lights  ) | |||
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"I support the current industrial action, and I support NHS staff. BUT it's not sustainable in its current setup, given we have an ageing and growing population, people have ever greater expectations and ever reducing ability to take appropriate decisions for themselves. I'd like to be able to explore alternatives without the debate just being shut down as "privatisation" and "American style healthcare" - there are other alternatives. Totally agree....but you also need to look at NHS spending and healthcare spending compared to other countries. The government (and all previous over past few decades...so this is NOT party political) have kept telling us HOW MUCH the NHS costs and that it is unsustainable..but check the FACTS. we spend just 8.5% of our GDP on health. This is the SECOND LOWEST proportional spend in the whole of Europe. Only Ireland is slightly lower. This means even poor/broken economies actually spend MORE on health care. If we need full cover 24/7 it can ONLY be done by increasing the numbers of junior doctors....not by making them work longer and longer hours when they are already dead on their feet by the end of stupid shifts (ie back to back 16 hour shifts with a 3 or 4 hour gap between). The "myth" of 11% pay rise out out by Jeremy Cunt doesn't help as it has also been stated that the total wage bill will not rise...how are these things compatible. NHS management and government are not negotiating in good faith. (My daughter is a junior doctor btw...so yes I have a vested interest!)" | |||
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" Because they have trained for 7 years and continue throughout their careers and they save life's!!! So do Chartered Civil Engineers. (Actually longer) I also once read that Civil Engineers save more lives than Doctors, (but admittedly I think it was in an article published by the Institution of Civil Engineers, so probably about as unbiased as a chart from a group of junior doctors... )
AND the longest shift I did was 36 hours....
(AND you wouldn't believe the abuse you get from the public, especially if you're the one in charge of the temporary traffic lights )"That was facts about why they oppose. Not opinion. | |||
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" Why can't comparing long hours in private sectors be compared to working in the NHS? Obviously, it's only my opinion, but I'm pretty sure that if a lawyer fucks up a document it can be fixed (probably at a financial cost) but if a doctor fucks up on a patient for example, I'd guess that could be life or death. I know I'd rather not have an exhausted doctor cut me open... In terms of financial gain, the comparison of the hourly rate would, I guess, be a pretty huge difference in the two. If I can help it, I'll never go back to working in the public sector. Apart from the financial differences, the perks, the holidays, the lack of germs, I'm treated like a person. I'm not a number. I'm not another statistic. I know everyone in my firm and I like what I do. What's sometimes missing, I suspect, is the satisfaction that I've been able to help someone with my day. I miss that part of working for the NHS but none of the rest. Although it was a long time ago now, it doesn't appear to have got any better. However, that's the sacrifice I make to have all the things I do enjoy in my working life. I get paid a whole lot more than a junior doctor and here I am mincing around in a swinging site and my employers are entirely cool with that. I'm good at what I do and I put in more than I need to. I'm also 100% behind the doctors striking because they've arranged for agency staff to cover them to make the point that they feel needs to be addressed. If they don't speak up for themselves, who will? There's several private sector roles that can affect the lives of other people (for example, engineering where you've 48 hour shifts to fix a broken down pressure vessel and you've a compromised chemical input) and yourself. Not all private sector roles are desk based. I don't think 13 hours is long enough to really compromise your functionality either, it just has a negative effect on your social life. This should be considered before studying though. Also, £23k for a new graduate (who I wouldn't trust to treat me on their own, without being overseen by someone who has completed their training) is a big salary. Plus willing to do the contracts for 11% and extra benefits (like extra pay for unsociable hours) seems a little off. You're either a danger or you're not. It all seems so greed motivated after the most recent negotiation fell through. " If you seriously believe that 13 hours isn't enough to compromise your functionality, then you've never WORKED for 13 hours! | |||
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" Why can't comparing long hours in private sectors be compared to working in the NHS? Obviously, it's only my opinion, but I'm pretty sure that if a lawyer fucks up a document it can be fixed (probably at a financial cost) but if a doctor fucks up on a patient for example, I'd guess that could be life or death. I know I'd rather not have an exhausted doctor cut me open... In terms of financial gain, the comparison of the hourly rate would, I guess, be a pretty huge difference in the two. If I can help it, I'll never go back to working in the public sector. Apart from the financial differences, the perks, the holidays, the lack of germs, I'm treated like a person. I'm not a number. I'm not another statistic. I know everyone in my firm and I like what I do. What's sometimes missing, I suspect, is the satisfaction that I've been able to help someone with my day. I miss that part of working for the NHS but none of the rest. Although it was a long time ago now, it doesn't appear to have got any better. However, that's the sacrifice I make to have all the things I do enjoy in my working life. I get paid a whole lot more than a junior doctor and here I am mincing around in a swinging site and my employers are entirely cool with that. I'm good at what I do and I put in more than I need to. I'm also 100% behind the doctors striking because they've arranged for agency staff to cover them to make the point that they feel needs to be addressed. If they don't speak up for themselves, who will? There's several private sector roles that can affect the lives of other people (for example, engineering where you've 48 hour shifts to fix a broken down pressure vessel and you've a compromised chemical input) and yourself. Not all private sector roles are desk based. I don't think 13 hours is long enough to really compromise your functionality either, it just has a negative effect on your social life. This should be considered before studying though. Also, £23k for a new graduate (who I wouldn't trust to treat me on their own, without being overseen by someone who has completed their training) is a big salary. Plus willing to do the contracts for 11% and extra benefits (like extra pay for unsociable hours) seems a little off. You're either a danger or you're not. It all seems so greed motivated after the most recent negotiation fell through. If you seriously believe that 13 hours isn't enough to compromise your functionality, then you've never WORKED for 13 hours!" Yeh I have and do. Sometimes I even work longer. What a shock. | |||
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" If you seriously believe that 13 hours isn't enough to compromise your functionality, then you've never WORKED for 13 hours!" 13 hour shifts are pretty standard in many industries. The point was "if you believe you are a danger working 13 hour shifts, why are you suddenly ok so long as you are paid at an enhanced rate?" | |||
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" If you seriously believe that 13 hours isn't enough to compromise your functionality, then you've never WORKED for 13 hours! 13 hour shifts are pretty standard in many industries. The point was "if you believe you are a danger working 13 hour shifts, why are you suddenly ok so long as you are paid at an enhanced rate?"" Exactly, and when I was in engineering you simply HAD to stay until the system was back online. That's where 48 hour plus shifts comes in. | |||
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" If you seriously believe that 13 hours isn't enough to compromise your functionality, then you've never WORKED for 13 hours! 13 hour shifts are pretty standard in many industries. The point was "if you believe you are a danger working 13 hour shifts, why are you suddenly ok so long as you are paid at an enhanced rate?"" I'm not sure where this narrative is coming from but it's not true. Nice piece of spin though. | |||
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" If you seriously believe that 13 hours isn't enough to compromise your functionality, then you've never WORKED for 13 hours! 13 hour shifts are pretty standard in many industries. The point was "if you believe you are a danger working 13 hour shifts, why are you suddenly ok so long as you are paid at an enhanced rate?" I'm not sure where this narrative is coming from but it's not true. Nice piece of spin though." Neither am I, that's what I'm trying to get to the bottom of. Many posts from nhs staff keep.going on about the long shifts, when (as far as I can make out) the current proposals do not involve extending shift lengths, nor are the junior doctors arguing for them to be shortened. Confused.com | |||
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"13hours in the emergency department on your feet the whole time and using your mind aswell to keep patients alive is not quite the same as waiting for a system to start working again!! "Waiting? You clearly have never worked as a mechanical engineer. I'd definitely say, without question of a doubt, removing and installing a new pressure vessel system across 48 hours is more physically taxing than a 13 hour shift in a hospital. Use common sense. | |||
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"I just hope the day you really need a Doctor they are fresh caring compassionate and still love their job " I pay to see consultants. I wouldn't pay to be treated by a junior doctor. | |||
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"I just hope the day you really need a Doctor they are fresh caring compassionate and still love their job I pay to see consultants. I wouldn't pay to be treated by a junior doctor. " You have an accident or emergency, you have no choice! Can't pay for that care!! | |||
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"I just hope the day you really need a Doctor they are fresh caring compassionate and still love their job I pay to see consultants. I wouldn't pay to be treated by a junior doctor. You have an accident or emergency, you have no choice! Can't pay for that care!!" To be honest, if a doctor is really so tired that they can't do their job, I'd sue for negligence. Putting themselves and their career first over my life would be an easily won suit. No doctor is forced to treat someone when they knowingly know they're impaired somehow. Strange how they're fully able as long as the compensation is high enough though. | |||
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"I just hope the day you really need a Doctor they are fresh caring compassionate and still love their job I pay to see consultants. I wouldn't pay to be treated by a junior doctor. You have an accident or emergency, you have no choice! Can't pay for that care!! To be honest, if a doctor is really so tired that they can't do their job, I'd sue for negligence. Putting themselves and their career first over my life would be an easily won suit. No doctor is forced to treat someone when they knowingly know they're impaired somehow. Strange how they're fully able as long as the compensation is high enough though. " You are just laughable!! | |||
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"I just hope the day you really need a Doctor they are fresh caring compassionate and still love their job I pay to see consultants. I wouldn't pay to be treated by a junior doctor. You have an accident or emergency, you have no choice! Can't pay for that care!! To be honest, if a doctor is really so tired that they can't do their job, I'd sue for negligence. Putting themselves and their career first over my life would be an easily won suit. No doctor is forced to treat someone when they knowingly know they're impaired somehow. Strange how they're fully able as long as the compensation is high enough though. " Gone a bit off topic here.... But if you want to be a doctor then you have no choice but to work in the NHS. Which is one of the reasons I don't think exploring an alternative is a bad thing. | |||
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"I just hope the day you really need a Doctor they are fresh caring compassionate and still love their job I pay to see consultants. I wouldn't pay to be treated by a junior doctor. You have an accident or emergency, you have no choice! Can't pay for that care!! To be honest, if a doctor is really so tired that they can't do their job, I'd sue for negligence. Putting themselves and their career first over my life would be an easily won suit. No doctor is forced to treat someone when they knowingly know they're impaired somehow. Strange how they're fully able as long as the compensation is high enough though. You are just laughable!! "Oh come off it, you have no knowledge and can't comprehend other examples from other industries. There's much more difficult jobs than a doctor. | |||
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"The things I ask when going for a job What am I expected to do What the are the hours I am expected to work What is the hourly rate for said job What holiday entitlements do I get If I don't like any of the answers...I walk away and find something else. May be that's what some of them should do if they are truly not happy." If they walk away from their jobs, then we would struggle to find replacements and it would also be a massive waste of our investment into their talent. Disposal of a great asset is just a short-sighted loss for no gain. | |||
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"I just hope the day you really need a Doctor they are fresh caring compassionate and still love their job I pay to see consultants. I wouldn't pay to be treated by a junior doctor. You have an accident or emergency, you have no choice! Can't pay for that care!! To be honest, if a doctor is really so tired that they can't do their job, I'd sue for negligence. Putting themselves and their career first over my life would be an easily won suit. No doctor is forced to treat someone when they knowingly know they're impaired somehow. Strange how they're fully able as long as the compensation is high enough though. Gone a bit off topic here.... But if you want to be a doctor then you have no choice but to work in the NHS. Which is one of the reasons I don't think exploring an alternative is a bad thing. " The NHS is a good thing for the UK. Wouldn't make sense to take so many steps back to before implementation. | |||
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"I just hope the day you really need a Doctor they are fresh caring compassionate and still love their job I pay to see consultants. I wouldn't pay to be treated by a junior doctor. You have an accident or emergency, you have no choice! Can't pay for that care!! To be honest, if a doctor is really so tired that they can't do their job, I'd sue for negligence. Putting themselves and their career first over my life would be an easily won suit. No doctor is forced to treat someone when they knowingly know they're impaired somehow. Strange how they're fully able as long as the compensation is high enough though. You are just laughable!!
Oh come off it, you have no knowledge and can't comprehend other examples from other industries.
There's much more difficult jobs than a doctor. "To be fair, you should have ended this post with "It's not rocket science"
At least that would have given some junior doctor the opportunity to come back with "Granted, rocket science can be quite tricky, but it's hardly brain surgery"
(© Mitchell & Webb, or maybe the Two Ronnies) | |||
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"I just hope the day you really need a Doctor they are fresh caring compassionate and still love their job I pay to see consultants. I wouldn't pay to be treated by a junior doctor. You have an accident or emergency, you have no choice! Can't pay for that care!! To be honest, if a doctor is really so tired that they can't do their job, I'd sue for negligence. Putting themselves and their career first over my life would be an easily won suit. No doctor is forced to treat someone when they knowingly know they're impaired somehow. Strange how they're fully able as long as the compensation is high enough though. You are just laughable!!
Oh come off it, you have no knowledge and can't comprehend other examples from other industries.
There's much more difficult jobs than a doctor.
To be fair, you should have ended this post with "It's not rocket science"
At least that would have given some junior doctor the opportunity to come back with "Granted, rocket science can be quite tricky, but it's hardly brain surgery"
(© Mitchell & Webb, or maybe the Two Ronnies)"It's mad to me. They clearly haven't read the proposals (down almost 20 hours on the existing contracts), yet still try to converse on the subject. Dunno how less contracted hours is less safe anyway.They won't be forced to work more than 48, but can opt in to bump up those awful salaries. | |||
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"13hours in the emergency department on your feet the whole time and using your mind aswell to keep patients alive is not quite the same as waiting for a system to start working again!! "Again, no-one is doubting for a minute that A&E is not incredibly busy and stressful. Personally I think it is a special case and both staffing levels and how members of the public use it should be addressed. Plus hospital management should be able to turn people away if they are either abusing staff or the system. Some industries use 12 shift patterns, some 8 and some 6. While 12-hr shifts on an out-patient department may make sense, there certainly is an argument for a shorter shift pattern in A&E. But surely that is something for unions and management to agree on a local level isn't it? I presume the current shift patterns are, on balance, preferred by the clinical staff too. And, as far as junior doctors are concerned, isn't A&E a 6-month placement still, only staying if they choose to? (I honestly don't know, maybe it has changed since our day) | |||
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"I support the current industrial action, and I support NHS staff. BUT it's not sustainable in its current setup, given we have an ageing and growing population, people have ever greater expectations and ever reducing ability to take appropriate decisions for themselves. I'd like to be able to explore alternatives without the debate just being shut down as "privatisation" and "American style healthcare" - there are other alternatives. Totally agree....but you also need to look at NHS spending and healthcare spending compared to other countries. The government (and all previous over past few decades...so this is NOT party political) have kept telling us HOW MUCH the NHS costs and that it is unsustainable..but check the FACTS. we spend just 8.5% of our GDP on health. This is the SECOND LOWEST proportional spend in the whole of Europe. Only Ireland is slightly lower. This means even poor/broken economies actually spend MORE on health care. If we need full cover 24/7 it can ONLY be done by increasing the numbers of junior doctors....not by making them work longer and longer hours when they are already dead on their feet by the end of stupid shifts (ie back to back 16 hour shifts with a 3 or 4 hour gap between). The "myth" of 11% pay rise out out by Jeremy Cunt doesn't help as it has also been stated that the total wage bill will not rise...how are these things compatible. NHS management and government are not negotiating in good faith. (My daughter is a junior doctor btw...so yes I have a vested interest!)" Think you will find that your figures are "wrong". Most other European countries "finance" their health care with private insurances. My hubby, because he has a vested interest in Switzerland, has to have a health insurance (by law all residence in Switzerland must have a health insurance) and it's for his age Swiss France 630 in real money £437 per month. If you have an accident and you dont have an insurance the answer is "tough" but how are you going to pay? I went through that when I was with him in Switzerland and had an attack and ended up in A&E. Only becuase he speaks fluent Swiss German and was able to arrange something I got off the hook with "just" paying £300 for 2 hours. So where is free care then in Europe ? It's pay as you go - sorry NHS is great but it's way to expensive and nothing is being done for the OAP's ...  | |||
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"13hours in the emergency department on your feet the whole time and using your mind aswell to keep patients alive is not quite the same as waiting for a system to start working again!!
Again, no-one is doubting for a minute that A&E is not incredibly busy and stressful. Personally I think it is a special case and both staffing levels and how members of the public use it should be addressed. Plus hospital management should be able to turn people away if they are either abusing staff or the system.
Some industries use 12 shift patterns, some 8 and some 6. While 12-hr shifts on an out-patient department may make sense, there certainly is an argument for a shorter shift pattern in A&E. But surely that is something for unions and management to agree on a local level isn't it? I presume the current shift patterns are, on balance, preferred by the clinical staff too.
And, as far as junior doctors are concerned, isn't A&E a 6-month placement still, only staying if they choose to? (I honestly don't know, maybe it has changed since our day)"Depends on what band the doctor is. If they work late on Saturdays, they currently get premium overtime rates. That'll be gotten rid of, and they'll be paid normally. That (and other overtime cuts) is where the BMA has calculated the 30% loss in earnings. They're not contracted to work longer hours or anything. The 7 day NHS isn't forcing doctors to work 7 days. Dunno why people aren't comprehending that | |||
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"I support the current industrial action, and I support NHS staff. BUT it's not sustainable in its current setup, given we have an ageing and growing population, people have ever greater expectations and ever reducing ability to take appropriate decisions for themselves. I'd like to be able to explore alternatives without the debate just being shut down as "privatisation" and "American style healthcare" - there are other alternatives. " To start with, increase healthcare spending by government with % of GDP if not more but match what Germany spends! The current approach by government is nothing but bullying junior doctors. | |||
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To clarify, doctors are not asking for more money, they simply don't want their pay cut.
Doctors do not receive overtime payments. They get an overall supplement so that those working an antisocial pattern (such as in emergency medicine) are more generously remunerated than those who work 9-5 (such as lab based doctors). Given that means the former will have a decreased quality of life, I think that's entirely fair and should remain to attract doctors to the more gruelling specialties.
Doctors do not choose their hours or when they work. That is stipulated by the trust.
The proposals remove the penalties for overworking doctors. As money is the only language NHS managers understand, this is the only effective way to ensure that safe hours are adhered to.
For those who suggest doctors should leave if they don't like the conditions being imposed. That's exactly what's happening. There is a massive doctor shortage in this country as they leave for medical posts abroad or take jobs in other sectors.
The NHS is in crisis and this contract will only make it worse. | |||
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"I just hope the day you really need a Doctor they are fresh caring compassionate and still love their job I pay to see consultants. I wouldn't pay to be treated by a junior doctor. You have an accident or emergency, you have no choice! Can't pay for that care!! To be honest, if a doctor is really so tired that they can't do their job, I'd sue for negligence. Putting themselves and their career first over my life would be an easily won suit. No doctor is forced to treat someone when they knowingly know they're impaired somehow. Strange how they're fully able as long as the compensation is high enough though. You are just laughable!!
Oh come off it, you have no knowledge and can't comprehend other examples from other industries.
There's much more difficult jobs than a doctor. "You have only considered actual job, forgetting the journey to become a Dr..its long, very competitive, expensive... | |||
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"Wow so many misinformed comments, so little time!
To clarify, doctors are not asking for more money, they simply don't want their pay cut.
Doctors do not receive overtime payments. They get an overall supplement so that those working an antisocial pattern (such as in emergency medicine) are more generously remunerated than those who work 9-5 (such as lab based doctors). Given that means the former will have a decreased quality of life, I think that's entirely fair and should remain to attract doctors to the more gruelling specialties.
Doctors do not choose their hours or when they work. That is stipulated by the trust.
The proposals remove the penalties for overworking doctors. As money is the only language NHS managers understand, this is the only effective way to ensure that safe hours are adhered to.
For those who suggest doctors should leave if they don't like the conditions being imposed. That's exactly what's happening. There is a massive doctor shortage in this country as they leave for medical posts abroad or take jobs in other sectors.
The NHS is in crisis and this contract will only make it worse. " | |||
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"I just hope the day you really need a Doctor they are fresh caring compassionate and still love their job I pay to see consultants. I wouldn't pay to be treated by a junior doctor. You have an accident or emergency, you have no choice! Can't pay for that care!! To be honest, if a doctor is really so tired that they can't do their job, I'd sue for negligence. Putting themselves and their career first over my life would be an easily won suit. No doctor is forced to treat someone when they knowingly know they're impaired somehow. Strange how they're fully able as long as the compensation is high enough though. You are just laughable!!
Oh come off it, you have no knowledge and can't comprehend other examples from other industries.
There's much more difficult jobs than a doctor.
You have only considered actual job, forgetting the journey to become a Dr..its long, very competitive, expensive..."That's a choice. You don't enter it with blinkers on. Everyone knows medicine is tough at first, and changes when you become a consultant. Most jobs are like this. | |||
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"Wow so many misinformed comments, so little time!
To clarify, doctors are not asking for more money, they simply don't want their pay cut.
Doctors do not receive overtime payments. They get an overall supplement so that those working an antisocial pattern (such as in emergency medicine) are more generously remunerated than those who work 9-5 (such as lab based doctors). Given that means the former will have a decreased quality of life, I think that's entirely fair and should remain to attract doctors to the more gruelling specialties.
Doctors do not choose their hours or when they work. That is stipulated by the trust.
The proposals remove the penalties for overworking doctors. As money is the only language NHS managers understand, this is the only effective way to ensure that safe hours are adhered to.
For those who suggest doctors should leave if they don't like the conditions being imposed. That's exactly what's happening. There is a massive doctor shortage in this country as they leave for medical posts abroad or take jobs in other sectors.
The NHS is in crisis and this contract will only make it worse. "This ^^^^ So many people on here are buying the Tory Spin doctors bullshit. This ignorance of the actual facts of what's happening isn't an excuse anymore, your on here on the internet, read the facts do some research. Next some of you will be saying you thin Nigel Farage talks sense | |||
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"The NHS has been under funded for decades, it's not a Tory thing, the last labour govt did the same. We have had to cut 6% off dept budgets year after year all there is is staff to cut so we don't replace staff, we de-skill, then we get slated for lower standards. We spend less on health than everywhere else and as for USA system that's the one that's spends more per head than anywhere in the west for the worst outcomes. There is a lot of waste too, too many tiers of management and procurement is awful. The principle is great but needs funding looking at and some admin reorganisation. As for the comment about politicians being over paid I certainly don't think that's true of MPs yes they should waive their recent pay rise given the economy and ruses should be linked to public sector pay but in the scheme of things they aren't on huge money, some council leaders are on more than the PM! Junior Drs are treated awful, you really want one in theatre on Monday morning that hasn't slept since Friday?" Why would they have a 72 hour shift? That's a total exaggeration of what's expected of them. | |||
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"13hours in the emergency department on your feet the whole time and using your mind aswell to keep patients alive is not quite the same as waiting for a system to start working again!!
Again, no-one is doubting for a minute that A&E is not incredibly busy and stressful. Personally I think it is a special case and both staffing levels and how members of the public use it should be addressed. Plus hospital management should be able to turn people away if they are either abusing staff or the system.
Some industries use 12 shift patterns, some 8 and some 6. While 12-hr shifts on an out-patient department may make sense, there certainly is an argument for a shorter shift pattern in A&E. But surely that is something for unions and management to agree on a local level isn't it? I presume the current shift patterns are, on balance, preferred by the clinical staff too.
And, as far as junior doctors are concerned, isn't A&E a 6-month placement still, only staying if they choose to? (I honestly don't know, maybe it has changed since our day)
Depends on what band the doctor is.
If they work late on Saturdays, they currently get premium overtime rates. That'll be gotten rid of, and they'll be paid normally.
That (and other overtime cuts) is where the BMA has calculated the 30% loss in earnings. They're not contracted to work longer hours or anything. The 7 day NHS isn't forcing doctors to work 7 days. Dunno why people aren't comprehending that "The NHS is already 7 days, how don't you know that? seriously you need to sort your facts out before spouting ridiculous statements. | |||
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"13hours in the emergency department on your feet the whole time and using your mind aswell to keep patients alive is not quite the same as waiting for a system to start working again!!
Again, no-one is doubting for a minute that A&E is not incredibly busy and stressful. Personally I think it is a special case and both staffing levels and how members of the public use it should be addressed. Plus hospital management should be able to turn people away if they are either abusing staff or the system.
Some industries use 12 shift patterns, some 8 and some 6. While 12-hr shifts on an out-patient department may make sense, there certainly is an argument for a shorter shift pattern in A&E. But surely that is something for unions and management to agree on a local level isn't it? I presume the current shift patterns are, on balance, preferred by the clinical staff too.
And, as far as junior doctors are concerned, isn't A&E a 6-month placement still, only staying if they choose to? (I honestly don't know, maybe it has changed since our day)
Depends on what band the doctor is.
If they work late on Saturdays, they currently get premium overtime rates. That'll be gotten rid of, and they'll be paid normally.
That (and other overtime cuts) is where the BMA has calculated the 30% loss in earnings. They're not contracted to work longer hours or anything. The 7 day NHS isn't forcing doctors to work 7 days. Dunno why people aren't comprehending that
The NHS is already 7 days, how don't you know that? seriously you need to sort your facts out before spouting ridiculous statements."No, it's not You don't get scheduled out patients or electives all over the weekends. | |||
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" If you seriously believe that 13 hours isn't enough to compromise your functionality, then you've never WORKED for 13 hours! 13 hour shifts are pretty standard in many industries. The point was "if you believe you are a danger working 13 hour shifts, why are you suddenly ok so long as you are paid at an enhanced rate?" Exactly, and when I was in engineering you simply HAD to stay until the system was back online. That's where 48 hour plus shifts comes in. " And how frequently you attended crash calls, dying person, someone bleeding to death, dealing with stressful families, confronting with different emotions, list is endless... | |||
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"I just hope the day you really need a Doctor they are fresh caring compassionate and still love their job I pay to see consultants. I wouldn't pay to be treated by a junior doctor. You have an accident or emergency, you have no choice! Can't pay for that care!! To be honest, if a doctor is really so tired that they can't do their job, I'd sue for negligence. Putting themselves and their career first over my life would be an easily won suit. No doctor is forced to treat someone when they knowingly know they're impaired somehow. Strange how they're fully able as long as the compensation is high enough though. You are just laughable!!
Oh come off it, you have no knowledge and can't comprehend other examples from other industries.
There's much more difficult jobs than a doctor.
To be fair, you should have ended this post with "It's not rocket science"
At least that would have given some junior doctor the opportunity to come back with "Granted, rocket science can be quite tricky, but it's hardly brain surgery"
(© Mitchell & Webb, or maybe the Two Ronnies)". Simpsons | |||
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"The NHS has been under funded for decades, it's not a Tory thing, the last labour govt did the same. We have had to cut 6% off dept budgets year after year all there is is staff to cut so we don't replace staff, we de-skill, then we get slated for lower standards. We spend less on health than everywhere else and as for USA system that's the one that's spends more per head than anywhere in the west for the worst outcomes. There is a lot of waste too, too many tiers of management and procurement is awful. The principle is great but needs funding looking at and some admin reorganisation. As for the comment about politicians being over paid I certainly don't think that's true of MPs yes they should waive their recent pay rise given the economy and ruses should be linked to public sector pay but in the scheme of things they aren't on huge money, some council leaders are on more than the PM! Junior Drs are treated awful, you really want one in theatre on Monday morning that hasn't slept since Friday? Why would they have a 72 hour shift? That's a total exaggeration of what's expected of them. " I wasn't unusual in the past to work a shift of that length, made up of normal days followed by nights on call (where you were supposed to sleep but usually didn't). The current contract penalises the trust for shift patterns like this. The new contract will remove those penalties. | |||
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" If you seriously believe that 13 hours isn't enough to compromise your functionality, then you've never WORKED for 13 hours! 13 hour shifts are pretty standard in many industries. The point was "if you believe you are a danger working 13 hour shifts, why are you suddenly ok so long as you are paid at an enhanced rate?" Exactly, and when I was in engineering you simply HAD to stay until the system was back online. That's where 48 hour plus shifts comes in. And how frequently you attended crash calls, dying person, someone bleeding to death, dealing with stressful families, confronting with different emotions, list is endless..." Obviously never as I didn't work in medicine. I worked 12 hour days as standard, almost always doing 15 as I was learning the ropes. Critical break downs happened every day. I was never too tired to work or function and I understood it was necessary to put the time in to learn. | |||
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"The NHS has been under funded for decades, it's not a Tory thing, the last labour govt did the same. We have had to cut 6% off dept budgets year after year all there is is staff to cut so we don't replace staff, we de-skill, then we get slated for lower standards. We spend less on health than everywhere else and as for USA system that's the one that's spends more per head than anywhere in the west for the worst outcomes. There is a lot of waste too, too many tiers of management and procurement is awful. The principle is great but needs funding looking at and some admin reorganisation. As for the comment about politicians being over paid I certainly don't think that's true of MPs yes they should waive their recent pay rise given the economy and ruses should be linked to public sector pay but in the scheme of things they aren't on huge money, some council leaders are on more than the PM! Junior Drs are treated awful, you really want one in theatre on Monday morning that hasn't slept since Friday? Why would they have a 72 hour shift? That's a total exaggeration of what's expected of them. I wasn't unusual in the past to work a shift of that length, made up of normal days followed by nights on call (where you were supposed to sleep but usually didn't). The current contract penalises the trust for shift patterns like this. The new contract will remove those penalties. " Again, why would the doctor opt in to more than 48 hours if they cannot cope? | |||
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" The NHS is already 7 days, how don't you know that? seriously you need to sort your facts out before spouting ridiculous statements." The issue is weekend staffing levels, how don't you know that? Example: both our children were born after extremely long periods of labour. In one case the nursing staff didn't want to wake the junior doctor because she had had a busy day. Finally, at 8pm, when someone finally decided to do so, she immediately realised the junior midwife had misdiagnosed a breech-birth (despite both of us saying this for hours) and an emergency cesarean was ordered. Imagine how much better that could have been if there had been more than one junior doctor on duty... | |||
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" If you seriously believe that 13 hours isn't enough to compromise your functionality, then you've never WORKED for 13 hours! 13 hour shifts are pretty standard in many industries. The point was "if you believe you are a danger working 13 hour shifts, why are you suddenly ok so long as you are paid at an enhanced rate?" Exactly, and when I was in engineering you simply HAD to stay until the system was back online. That's where 48 hour plus shifts comes in. And how frequently you attended crash calls, dying person, someone bleeding to death, dealing with stressful families, confronting with different emotions, list is endless... Obviously never as I didn't work in medicine. I worked 12 hour days as standard, almost always doing 15 as I was learning the ropes. Critical break downs happened every day. I was never too tired to work or function and I understood it was necessary to put the time in to learn. " Its just not being physically tired, you get emotionally drained as well...worse you take those emotions at home with you...! Doctors have one the highest divorce and mental health/suicide rates amongst all professionals, sad but true! | |||
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" If you seriously believe that 13 hours isn't enough to compromise your functionality, then you've never WORKED for 13 hours! 13 hour shifts are pretty standard in many industries. The point was "if you believe you are a danger working 13 hour shifts, why are you suddenly ok so long as you are paid at an enhanced rate?" Exactly, and when I was in engineering you simply HAD to stay until the system was back online. That's where 48 hour plus shifts comes in. And how frequently you attended crash calls, dying person, someone bleeding to death, dealing with stressful families, confronting with different emotions, list is endless... Obviously never as I didn't work in medicine. I worked 12 hour days as standard, almost always doing 15 as I was learning the ropes. Critical break downs happened every day. I was never too tired to work or function and I understood it was necessary to put the time in to learn. Its just not being physically tired, you get emotionally drained as well...worse you take those emotions at home with you...! Doctors have one the highest divorce and mental health/suicide rates amongst all professionals, sad but true! " So are dentists. They do not deal with A&E. I'm not sure the profession is the cause, perhaps undiagnosed mental health conditions due to the risk to their jobs. | |||
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"The NHS has been under funded for decades, it's not a Tory thing, the last labour govt did the same. We have had to cut 6% off dept budgets year after year all there is is staff to cut so we don't replace staff, we de-skill, then we get slated for lower standards. We spend less on health than everywhere else and as for USA system that's the one that's spends more per head than anywhere in the west for the worst outcomes. There is a lot of waste too, too many tiers of management and procurement is awful. The principle is great but needs funding looking at and some admin reorganisation. As for the comment about politicians being over paid I certainly don't think that's true of MPs yes they should waive their recent pay rise given the economy and ruses should be linked to public sector pay but in the scheme of things they aren't on huge money, some council leaders are on more than the PM! Junior Drs are treated awful, you really want one in theatre on Monday morning that hasn't slept since Friday? Why would they have a 72 hour shift? That's a total exaggeration of what's expected of them. I wasn't unusual in the past to work a shift of that length, made up of normal days followed by nights on call (where you were supposed to sleep but usually didn't). The current contract penalises the trust for shift patterns like this. The new contract will remove those penalties. Again, why would the doctor opt in to more than 48 hours if they cannot cope? " It's not about opting in or out. Hours are averaged over six months. If you are full time you will work 100+ hours some weeks and won't have any choice in the matter. | |||
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" Doctors have one the highest divorce and mental health/suicide rates amongst all professionals, sad but true! " Link? Divorce: I lost count at 90th, and hadn't come to doctors. Dancers were top. Suicide is true, but access to drugs is given as the main reason for the slightly higher prevalence than.... ...engineers and lawyers   | |||
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"The NHS has been under funded for decades, it's not a Tory thing, the last labour govt did the same. We have had to cut 6% off dept budgets year after year all there is is staff to cut so we don't replace staff, we de-skill, then we get slated for lower standards. We spend less on health than everywhere else and as for USA system that's the one that's spends more per head than anywhere in the west for the worst outcomes. There is a lot of waste too, too many tiers of management and procurement is awful. The principle is great but needs funding looking at and some admin reorganisation. As for the comment about politicians being over paid I certainly don't think that's true of MPs yes they should waive their recent pay rise given the economy and ruses should be linked to public sector pay but in the scheme of things they aren't on huge money, some council leaders are on more than the PM! Junior Drs are treated awful, you really want one in theatre on Monday morning that hasn't slept since Friday? Why would they have a 72 hour shift? That's a total exaggeration of what's expected of them. I wasn't unusual in the past to work a shift of that length, made up of normal days followed by nights on call (where you were supposed to sleep but usually didn't). The current contract penalises the trust for shift patterns like this. The new contract will remove those penalties. Again, why would the doctor opt in to more than 48 hours if they cannot cope? It's not about opting in or out. Hours are averaged over six months. If you are full time you will work 100+ hours some weeks and won't have any choice in the matter." So every single NHS trust is going against European Working Time Directives? | |||
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" The NHS is already 7 days, how don't you know that? seriously you need to sort your facts out before spouting ridiculous statements. The issue is weekend staffing levels, how don't you know that? Example: both our children were born after extremely long periods of labour. In one case the nursing staff didn't want to wake the junior doctor because she had had a busy day. Finally, at 8pm, when someone finally decided to do so, she immediately realised the junior midwife had misdiagnosed a breech-birth (despite both of us saying this for hours) and an emergency cesarean was ordered. Imagine how much better that could have been if there had been more than one junior doctor on duty..." So the answer is invest and hire more doctors, not drive the existing ones away. | |||
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" The NHS is already 7 days, how don't you know that? seriously you need to sort your facts out before spouting ridiculous statements. The issue is weekend staffing levels, how don't you know that? Example: both our children were born after extremely long periods of labour. In one case the nursing staff didn't want to wake the junior doctor because she had had a busy day. Finally, at 8pm, when someone finally decided to do so, she immediately realised the junior midwife had misdiagnosed a breech-birth (despite both of us saying this for hours) and an emergency cesarean was ordered. Imagine how much better that could have been if there had been more than one junior doctor on duty... So the answer is invest and hire more doctors, not drive the existing ones away. " Restructuring contracts also works. There's only a finite budget. | |||
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"The NHS has been under funded for decades, it's not a Tory thing, the last labour govt did the same. We have had to cut 6% off dept budgets year after year all there is is staff to cut so we don't replace staff, we de-skill, then we get slated for lower standards. We spend less on health than everywhere else and as for USA system that's the one that's spends more per head than anywhere in the west for the worst outcomes. There is a lot of waste too, too many tiers of management and procurement is awful. The principle is great but needs funding looking at and some admin reorganisation. As for the comment about politicians being over paid I certainly don't think that's true of MPs yes they should waive their recent pay rise given the economy and ruses should be linked to public sector pay but in the scheme of things they aren't on huge money, some council leaders are on more than the PM! Junior Drs are treated awful, you really want one in theatre on Monday morning that hasn't slept since Friday? Why would they have a 72 hour shift? That's a total exaggeration of what's expected of them. I wasn't unusual in the past to work a shift of that length, made up of normal days followed by nights on call (where you were supposed to sleep but usually didn't). The current contract penalises the trust for shift patterns like this. The new contract will remove those penalties. Again, why would the doctor opt in to more than 48 hours if they cannot cope? It's not about opting in or out. Hours are averaged over six months. If you are full time you will work 100+ hours some weeks and won't have any choice in the matter. So every single NHS trust is going against European Working Time Directives?" It's EWTD compliant to average the hours out over six months for doctors. | |||
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" The NHS is already 7 days, how don't you know that? seriously you need to sort your facts out before spouting ridiculous statements. The issue is weekend staffing levels, how don't you know that? Example: both our children were born after extremely long periods of labour. In one case the nursing staff didn't want to wake the junior doctor because she had had a busy day. Finally, at 8pm, when someone finally decided to do so, she immediately realised the junior midwife had misdiagnosed a breech-birth (despite both of us saying this for hours) and an emergency cesarean was ordered. Imagine how much better that could have been if there had been more than one junior doctor on duty... So the answer is invest and hire more doctors, not drive the existing ones away. " Or change the working patterns? Are we driving JUNIOR doctors away? Last time they were in the news wasn't it because, under the new foundation training thingy, we had twice as many as were needed? But they all are signed up to work Mon-Fri? Not weekends, when hospitals (esp A&E) are busiest? Again, may be wrong but... | |||
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"The NHS has been under funded for decades, it's not a Tory thing, the last labour govt did the same. We have had to cut 6% off dept budgets year after year all there is is staff to cut so we don't replace staff, we de-skill, then we get slated for lower standards. We spend less on health than everywhere else and as for USA system that's the one that's spends more per head than anywhere in the west for the worst outcomes. There is a lot of waste too, too many tiers of management and procurement is awful. The principle is great but needs funding looking at and some admin reorganisation. As for the comment about politicians being over paid I certainly don't think that's true of MPs yes they should waive their recent pay rise given the economy and ruses should be linked to public sector pay but in the scheme of things they aren't on huge money, some council leaders are on more than the PM! Junior Drs are treated awful, you really want one in theatre on Monday morning that hasn't slept since Friday? Why would they have a 72 hour shift? That's a total exaggeration of what's expected of them. I wasn't unusual in the past to work a shift of that length, made up of normal days followed by nights on call (where you were supposed to sleep but usually didn't). The current contract penalises the trust for shift patterns like this. The new contract will remove those penalties. Again, why would the doctor opt in to more than 48 hours if they cannot cope? It's not about opting in or out. Hours are averaged over six months. If you are full time you will work 100+ hours some weeks and won't have any choice in the matter. So every single NHS trust is going against European Working Time Directives? It's EWTD compliant to average the hours out over six months for doctors. " They still are entitled to 11 hours a day off. I understand that sometimes they'll work longer hours, but I do not believe that junior doctors are contracted to do 100 hour shifts constantly. I've never even met a doctor who works 100 hours each shift consistently. | |||
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" The NHS is already 7 days, how don't you know that? seriously you need to sort your facts out before spouting ridiculous statements. The issue is weekend staffing levels, how don't you know that? Example: both our children were born after extremely long periods of labour. In one case the nursing staff didn't want to wake the junior doctor because she had had a busy day. Finally, at 8pm, when someone finally decided to do so, she immediately realised the junior midwife had misdiagnosed a breech-birth (despite both of us saying this for hours) and an emergency cesarean was ordered. Imagine how much better that could have been if there had been more than one junior doctor on duty... So the answer is invest and hire more doctors, not drive the existing ones away. Restructuring contracts also works. There's only a finite budget. " Depends what you mean by 'works'? If your objective is to understaff the NHS, yes it will work. | |||
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"98% Doctors are by no stretch of the imagination militants indeed the BMA is traditionally a conservative organisation. Perhaps things have become dialectic, but the outright untruths told and condescending attitude of Hunt has embittered so many good people who ordinarily wouldn't dream of this action. 98%. Few governments outside of North Korea have that kind of mandate. " 98% of the trade union. | |||
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" The NHS is already 7 days, how don't you know that? seriously you need to sort your facts out before spouting ridiculous statements. The issue is weekend staffing levels, how don't you know that? Example: both our children were born after extremely long periods of labour. In one case the nursing staff didn't want to wake the junior doctor because she had had a busy day. Finally, at 8pm, when someone finally decided to do so, she immediately realised the junior midwife had misdiagnosed a breech-birth (despite both of us saying this for hours) and an emergency cesarean was ordered. Imagine how much better that could have been if there had been more than one junior doctor on duty... So the answer is invest and hire more doctors, not drive the existing ones away. Restructuring contracts also works. There's only a finite budget. Depends what you mean by 'works'? If your objective is to understaff the NHS, yes it will work. " Why are doctors entitled to weekends off? It works scheduling them to work shifts at weekends, and not just being on call. It is frustrating that they're too precious to consider this maltreatment. | |||
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"98% Doctors are by no stretch of the imagination militants indeed the BMA is traditionally a conservative organisation. Perhaps things have become dialectic, but the outright untruths told and condescending attitude of Hunt has embittered so many good people who ordinarily wouldn't dream of this action. 98%. Few governments outside of North Korea have that kind of mandate. " I suspect think Crimea might have too
Again, no-one is saying they shouldn't be allowed to strike. We just seek a little honesty in the debate.
From both sides. | |||
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"The things I ask when going for a job What am I expected to do What the are the hours I am expected to work What is the hourly rate for said job What holiday entitlements do I get If I don't like any of the answers...I walk away and find something else. May be that's what some of them should do if they are truly not happy." Which is all fine....and doctors did sign up or start their studies knowing what they were expected to do. But now AFTER they have done 7(minimum) years...the government are changing the rules. Many HAVE voted with their feet and gone abroad or to private. The applications to go abroad have gone up more than fivefold since Jeremy decided to try and impose these changes. It is NOT about trying to get a pay increase it is about working safely without having any (already poor) protection removed. Simple fact...government management want more cover...from same amount of doctors for no extra cost. I don't care how thick or biased or anything else any posters may be...same number of doctors, covering more shifts clearly means they each work more hours. If the total funding remains the same then the actual hourly pay goes down! Simple junior school maths! But the biggest problem is doctors working more hours means tired doctors, making mistakes...that is the true problem! | |||
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" The NHS is already 7 days, how don't you know that? seriously you need to sort your facts out before spouting ridiculous statements. The issue is weekend staffing levels, how don't you know that? Example: both our children were born after extremely long periods of labour. In one case the nursing staff didn't want to wake the junior doctor because she had had a busy day. Finally, at 8pm, when someone finally decided to do so, she immediately realised the junior midwife had misdiagnosed a breech-birth (despite both of us saying this for hours) and an emergency cesarean was ordered. Imagine how much better that could have been if there had been more than one junior doctor on duty... So the answer is invest and hire more doctors, not drive the existing ones away. Or change the working patterns? Are we driving JUNIOR doctors away? Last time they were in the news wasn't it because, under the new foundation training thingy, we had twice as many as were needed? But they all are signed up to work Mon-Fri? Not weekends, when hospitals (esp A&E) are busiest? Again, may be wrong but..." So you move your existing cohort of doctors from the weekdays to the weekends. What happens to the weekdays? If no-one is doing more hours? Junior doctors are not signed up for particular shifts. They work when the trust tell them to work. The foundation programme represents the most junior of junior doctors (1-2 years post grad). When you look at the stats for vacancies for other grades of junior, things are not so rosy. | |||
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" The NHS is already 7 days, how don't you know that? seriously you need to sort your facts out before spouting ridiculous statements. The issue is weekend staffing levels, how don't you know that? Example: both our children were born after extremely long periods of labour. In one case the nursing staff didn't want to wake the junior doctor because she had had a busy day. Finally, at 8pm, when someone finally decided to do so, she immediately realised the junior midwife had misdiagnosed a breech-birth (despite both of us saying this for hours) and an emergency cesarean was ordered. Imagine how much better that could have been if there had been more than one junior doctor on duty... So the answer is invest and hire more doctors, not drive the existing ones away. Or change the working patterns? Are we driving JUNIOR doctors away? Last time they were in the news wasn't it because, under the new foundation training thingy, we had twice as many as were needed? But they all are signed up to work Mon-Fri? Not weekends, when hospitals (esp A&E) are busiest? Again, may be wrong but... So you move your existing cohort of doctors from the weekdays to the weekends. What happens to the weekdays? If no-one is doing more hours? Junior doctors are not signed up for particular shifts. They work when the trust tell them to work. The foundation programme represents the most junior of junior doctors (1-2 years post grad). When you look at the stats for vacancies for other grades of junior, things are not so rosy." The hospital should be using a locum, not putting pressure on juniors to accept more than 48 hours in that case. Just like every other long term rota gap. Luckily migrant doctors want to come to work here. | |||
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" So you move your existing cohort of doctors from the weekdays to the weekends. What happens to the weekdays? If no-one is doing more hours? Junior doctors are not signed up for particular shifts. They work when the trust tell them to work. The foundation programme represents the most junior of junior doctors (1-2 years post grad). When you look at the stats for vacancies for other grades of junior, things are not so rosy." {shrugs} One presumes patient outcomes would be monitored mid-week, and staffing levels adjusted accordingly, which more flexible contracts would allow. Hospital management are not morons, are they? Later levels may be less rosy than twice as many as needed, but isn't that a factor of how many you employ at the start? Coupled with a large number of junior doctors leaving, not to go elsewhere, but to start families as they are simply 'that age'? | |||
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" The NHS is already 7 days, how don't you know that? seriously you need to sort your facts out before spouting ridiculous statements. The issue is weekend staffing levels, how don't you know that? Example: both our children were born after extremely long periods of labour. In one case the nursing staff didn't want to wake the junior doctor because she had had a busy day. Finally, at 8pm, when someone finally decided to do so, she immediately realised the junior midwife had misdiagnosed a breech-birth (despite both of us saying this for hours) and an emergency cesarean was ordered. Imagine how much better that could have been if there had been more than one junior doctor on duty... So the answer is invest and hire more doctors, not drive the existing ones away. Restructuring contracts also works. There's only a finite budget. Depends what you mean by 'works'? If your objective is to understaff the NHS, yes it will work. Why are doctors entitled to weekends off? It works scheduling them to work shifts at weekends, and not just being on call. It is frustrating that they're too precious to consider this maltreatment. " Evidently you're just trolling. If you knew any doctors you'd know they work full shifts, at the weekend. Personally I don't consider it maltreatment or consider myself to be precious. Its simple economics. Childcare overnight and at weekends costs more. | |||
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" Luckily migrant doctors want to come to work here. " Omg - you've triggered the nuclear option of "Thank god for Immigants" just as I used the wmd of workplace sexism. RUN FOR THE HIIIILLS | |||
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" So you move your existing cohort of doctors from the weekdays to the weekends. What happens to the weekdays? If no-one is doing more hours? Junior doctors are not signed up for particular shifts. They work when the trust tell them to work. The foundation programme represents the most junior of junior doctors (1-2 years post grad). When you look at the stats for vacancies for other grades of junior, things are not so rosy. {shrugs} One presumes patient outcomes would be monitored mid-week, and staffing levels adjusted accordingly, which more flexible contracts would allow. Hospital management are not morons, are they? Later levels may be less rosy than twice as many as needed, but isn't that a factor of how many you employ at the start? Coupled with a large number of junior doctors leaving, not to go elsewhere, but to start families as they are simply 'that age'?" Ok you need to unserstand the simple premise that we do not have enough doctors now. So if weekday outcomes decline, you move your doctors off the weekend back to the weekdays. How is that going to help overall? You're still going to have days which are understaffed. Indeed they're not morons, but they're not magicians either. Quite right, you need to increase the number you employ to counteract the attrition rates, regardless of cause. I'm rather tired of doctors being blamed for rota gaps caused by underfunding. | |||
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" The NHS is already 7 days, how don't you know that? seriously you need to sort your facts out before spouting ridiculous statements. The issue is weekend staffing levels, how don't you know that? Example: both our children were born after extremely long periods of labour. In one case the nursing staff didn't want to wake the junior doctor because she had had a busy day. Finally, at 8pm, when someone finally decided to do so, she immediately realised the junior midwife had misdiagnosed a breech-birth (despite both of us saying this for hours) and an emergency cesarean was ordered. Imagine how much better that could have been if there had been more than one junior doctor on duty... So the answer is invest and hire more doctors, not drive the existing ones away. Restructuring contracts also works. There's only a finite budget. Depends what you mean by 'works'? If your objective is to understaff the NHS, yes it will work. Why are doctors entitled to weekends off? It works scheduling them to work shifts at weekends, and not just being on call. It is frustrating that they're too precious to consider this maltreatment. Evidently you're just trolling. If you knew any doctors you'd know they work full shifts, at the weekend. Personally I don't consider it maltreatment or consider myself to be precious. Its simple economics. Childcare overnight and at weekends costs more." Disagreeing with you isn't trolling. I've dated several doctors and am friends with them too. And no, I don't know any doctor that works all weekend as a standard. Or on public holidays. It sounds like you believe doctors are too precious to be scheduled to work at weekends. I don't see why being scheduled to work Saturday evenings deserves extra pay. I don't request overtime from my director when I work Sunday's on UAE accounts as it's part of my job. Again, being a doctor is a choice. It is no one else's fault if they knowingly have a child they can't afford to support. | |||
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" Luckily migrant doctors want to come to work here. Omg - you've triggered the nuclear option of "Thank god for Immigants" just as I used the wmd of workplace sexism. RUN FOR THE HIIIILLS "
Of course, the logical solution is considered trolling as it's clearly too absurd. | |||
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"13hours in the emergency department on your feet the whole time and using your mind aswell to keep patients alive is not quite the same as waiting for a system to start working again!!
Waiting? You clearly have never worked as a mechanical engineer. I'd definitely say, without question of a doubt, removing and installing a new pressure vessel system across 48 hours is more physically taxing than a 13 hour shift in a hospital. Use common sense. "I really wish at times people cold swap jobs for a month or so!. You really have no clue at all what it's like to work for the NHS or the strain a NHS staff member is under at work. Picking up on some of your previous comments specifically about Drs and NHS staff taking breaks, yes we are entitled to breaks I get two half hour unpaid breaks in a 13 hour shift. In the last month I've lost 10.5 hours in breaks as its just too busy to take one, reason for this my patients come first and all the Drs I work with are the same many don't have breaks because we are too busy. Next point is about functioning, New Year's Eve we were flat out! We got our first drink at 5pm having been at work since 7am, we only got that as the consultant could see we were all flagging having no food, drink, or toilet breaks. In a normal non NHS job would this happen? Chances are no! Breaks would be taken and you would get drinks. I think I'm some respect Drs have it much harder than us nursing staff, even though many nights we don't finish on time Drs are much worse. I whole heartedly agree with action the jnr Drs are taking as without the likes of them the NHS couldn't and wouldn't function. | |||
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"13hours in the emergency department on your feet the whole time and using your mind aswell to keep patients alive is not quite the same as waiting for a system to start working again!!
Waiting? You clearly have never worked as a mechanical engineer. I'd definitely say, without question of a doubt, removing and installing a new pressure vessel system across 48 hours is more physically taxing than a 13 hour shift in a hospital. Use common sense.
I really wish at times people cold swap jobs for a month or so!. You really have no clue at all what it's like to work for the NHS or the strain a NHS staff member is under at work.
Picking up on some of your previous comments specifically about Drs and NHS staff taking breaks, yes we are entitled to breaks I get two half hour unpaid breaks in a 13 hour shift. In the last month I've lost 10.5 hours in breaks as its just too busy to take one, reason for this my patients come first and all the Drs I work with are the same many don't have breaks because we are too busy.
Next point is about functioning, New Year's Eve we were flat out! We got our first drink at 5pm having been at work since 7am, we only got that as the consultant could see we were all flagging having no food, drink, or toilet breaks.
In a normal non NHS job would this happen? Chances are no! Breaks would be taken and you would get drinks.
I think I'm some respect Drs have it much harder than us nursing staff, even though many nights we don't finish on time Drs are much worse.
I whole heartedly agree with action the jnr Drs are taking as without the likes of them the NHS couldn't and wouldn't function. "I don't think it's necessary. I think people need to be more considered before entering a career. However, I'm sure your days with missed breaks where you got to go home and shower and eat compares to that one example of my 2 constant days of working (I didn't have scheduled breaks either). | |||
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" The NHS is already 7 days, how don't you know that? seriously you need to sort your facts out before spouting ridiculous statements. The issue is weekend staffing levels, how don't you know that? Example: both our children were born after extremely long periods of labour. In one case the nursing staff didn't want to wake the junior doctor because she had had a busy day. Finally, at 8pm, when someone finally decided to do so, she immediately realised the junior midwife had misdiagnosed a breech-birth (despite both of us saying this for hours) and an emergency cesarean was ordered. Imagine how much better that could have been if there had been more than one junior doctor on duty... So the answer is invest and hire more doctors, not drive the existing ones away. Restructuring contracts also works. There's only a finite budget. Depends what you mean by 'works'? If your objective is to understaff the NHS, yes it will work. Why are doctors entitled to weekends off? It works scheduling them to work shifts at weekends, and not just being on call. It is frustrating that they're too precious to consider this maltreatment. Evidently you're just trolling. If you knew any doctors you'd know they work full shifts, at the weekend. Personally I don't consider it maltreatment or consider myself to be precious. Its simple economics. Childcare overnight and at weekends costs more. Disagreeing with you isn't trolling. I've dated several doctors and am friends with them too. And no, I don't know any doctor that works all weekend as a standard. Or on public holidays. It sounds like you believe doctors are too precious to be scheduled to work at weekends. I don't see why being scheduled to work Saturday evenings deserves extra pay. I don't request overtime from my director when I work Sunday's on UAE accounts as it's part of my job. Again, being a doctor is a choice. It is no one else's fault if they knowingly have a child they can't afford to support." I'm confused here.. Are you suggesting that doctors shouldn't get paid for work? At the moment they get paid less than the minimum wage for any work they do out of hours. Are you suggesting that this should be cut to nothing? Out of hours work accounts for 40% of the average work a junior doctor does. Are you aware of what the 'New Deal' did to out of hours pay in 2000? Are you aware of what EWTD to their pay? Are you aware of what the last two decades of government pay re_iews have done to their pay? Obviously not. It seems that asking doctors to leave university with the largest debt, to start on an extremely low basic salary and to work 40% for free and never make a mistake is perfectly normal to expect. | |||
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" The NHS is already 7 days, how don't you know that? seriously you need to sort your facts out before spouting ridiculous statements. The issue is weekend staffing levels, how don't you know that? Example: both our children were born after extremely long periods of labour. In one case the nursing staff didn't want to wake the junior doctor because she had had a busy day. Finally, at 8pm, when someone finally decided to do so, she immediately realised the junior midwife had misdiagnosed a breech-birth (despite both of us saying this for hours) and an emergency cesarean was ordered. Imagine how much better that could have been if there had been more than one junior doctor on duty... So the answer is invest and hire more doctors, not drive the existing ones away. Restructuring contracts also works. There's only a finite budget. Depends what you mean by 'works'? If your objective is to understaff the NHS, yes it will work. Why are doctors entitled to weekends off? It works scheduling them to work shifts at weekends, and not just being on call. It is frustrating that they're too precious to consider this maltreatment. Evidently you're just trolling. If you knew any doctors you'd know they work full shifts, at the weekend. Personally I don't consider it maltreatment or consider myself to be precious. Its simple economics. Childcare overnight and at weekends costs more. Disagreeing with you isn't trolling. I've dated several doctors and am friends with them too. And no, I don't know any doctor that works all weekend as a standard. Or on public holidays. It sounds like you believe doctors are too precious to be scheduled to work at weekends. I don't see why being scheduled to work Saturday evenings deserves extra pay. I don't request overtime from my director when I work Sunday's on UAE accounts as it's part of my job. Again, being a doctor is a choice. It is no one else's fault if they knowingly have a child they can't afford to support." Being offensive is trolling. Rather it is you who seems 'precious'. So what you're saying is that anyone having children should anticipate massive pay cuts and only have them when their salary is say, 150% of what they need to support them?! Never heard so much rubbish in all my life. | |||
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" The NHS is already 7 days, how don't you know that? seriously you need to sort your facts out before spouting ridiculous statements. The issue is weekend staffing levels, how don't you know that? Example: both our children were born after extremely long periods of labour. In one case the nursing staff didn't want to wake the junior doctor because she had had a busy day. Finally, at 8pm, when someone finally decided to do so, she immediately realised the junior midwife had misdiagnosed a breech-birth (despite both of us saying this for hours) and an emergency cesarean was ordered. Imagine how much better that could have been if there had been more than one junior doctor on duty... So the answer is invest and hire more doctors, not drive the existing ones away. Restructuring contracts also works. There's only a finite budget. Depends what you mean by 'works'? If your objective is to understaff the NHS, yes it will work. Why are doctors entitled to weekends off? It works scheduling them to work shifts at weekends, and not just being on call. It is frustrating that they're too precious to consider this maltreatment. Evidently you're just trolling. If you knew any doctors you'd know they work full shifts, at the weekend. Personally I don't consider it maltreatment or consider myself to be precious. Its simple economics. Childcare overnight and at weekends costs more. Disagreeing with you isn't trolling. I've dated several doctors and am friends with them too. And no, I don't know any doctor that works all weekend as a standard. Or on public holidays. It sounds like you believe doctors are too precious to be scheduled to work at weekends. I don't see why being scheduled to work Saturday evenings deserves extra pay. I don't request overtime from my director when I work Sunday's on UAE accounts as it's part of my job. Again, being a doctor is a choice. It is no one else's fault if they knowingly have a child they can't afford to support. I'm confused here.. Are you suggesting that doctors shouldn't get paid for work? At the moment they get paid less than the minimum wage for any work they do out of hours. Are you suggesting that this should be cut to nothing? Out of hours work accounts for 40% of the average work a junior doctor does. Are you aware of what the 'New Deal' did to out of hours pay in 2000? Are you aware of what EWTD to their pay? Are you aware of what the last two decades of government pay re_iews have done to their pay? Obviously not. It seems that asking doctors to leave university with the largest debt, to start on an extremely low basic salary and to work 40% for free and never make a mistake is perfectly normal to expect." You're asking for answers to questions already discussed. Almost everyone in the world works for free. It's the nature of industry. I am aware of those things. I also don't believe £23k basic for an F1 is bad going. | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
" The NHS is already 7 days, how don't you know that? seriously you need to sort your facts out before spouting ridiculous statements. The issue is weekend staffing levels, how don't you know that? Example: both our children were born after extremely long periods of labour. In one case the nursing staff didn't want to wake the junior doctor because she had had a busy day. Finally, at 8pm, when someone finally decided to do so, she immediately realised the junior midwife had misdiagnosed a breech-birth (despite both of us saying this for hours) and an emergency cesarean was ordered. Imagine how much better that could have been if there had been more than one junior doctor on duty... So the answer is invest and hire more doctors, not drive the existing ones away. Restructuring contracts also works. There's only a finite budget. Depends what you mean by 'works'? If your objective is to understaff the NHS, yes it will work. Why are doctors entitled to weekends off? It works scheduling them to work shifts at weekends, and not just being on call. It is frustrating that they're too precious to consider this maltreatment. Evidently you're just trolling. If you knew any doctors you'd know they work full shifts, at the weekend. Personally I don't consider it maltreatment or consider myself to be precious. Its simple economics. Childcare overnight and at weekends costs more. Disagreeing with you isn't trolling. I've dated several doctors and am friends with them too. And no, I don't know any doctor that works all weekend as a standard. Or on public holidays. It sounds like you believe doctors are too precious to be scheduled to work at weekends. I don't see why being scheduled to work Saturday evenings deserves extra pay. I don't request overtime from my director when I work Sunday's on UAE accounts as it's part of my job. Again, being a doctor is a choice. It is no one else's fault if they knowingly have a child they can't afford to support. Being offensive is trolling. Rather it is you who seems 'precious'. So what you're saying is that anyone having children should anticipate massive pay cuts and only have them when their salary is say, 150% of what they need to support them?! Never heard so much rubbish in all my life." No, that is not what the definition of trolling is. Tbh, the argument that "doctors need more money so they can have children" is silly. | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
"13hours in the emergency department on your feet the whole time and using your mind aswell to keep patients alive is not quite the same as waiting for a system to start working again!!
Waiting? You clearly have never worked as a mechanical engineer. I'd definitely say, without question of a doubt, removing and installing a new pressure vessel system across 48 hours is more physically taxing than a 13 hour shift in a hospital. Use common sense.
I really wish at times people cold swap jobs for a month or so!. You really have no clue at all what it's like to work for the NHS or the strain a NHS staff member is under at work.
Picking up on some of your previous comments specifically about Drs and NHS staff taking breaks, yes we are entitled to breaks I get two half hour unpaid breaks in a 13 hour shift. In the last month I've lost 10.5 hours in breaks as its just too busy to take one, reason for this my patients come first and all the Drs I work with are the same many don't have breaks because we are too busy.
Next point is about functioning, New Year's Eve we were flat out! We got our first drink at 5pm having been at work since 7am, we only got that as the consultant could see we were all flagging having no food, drink, or toilet breaks.
In a normal non NHS job would this happen? Chances are no! Breaks would be taken and you would get drinks.
I think I'm some respect Drs have it much harder than us nursing staff, even though many nights we don't finish on time Drs are much worse.
I whole heartedly agree with action the jnr Drs are taking as without the likes of them the NHS couldn't and wouldn't function.
I don't think it's necessary. I think people need to be more considered before entering a career. However, I'm sure your days with missed breaks where you got to go home and shower and eat compares to that one example of my 2 constant days of working (I didn't have scheduled breaks either). "Oh sorry did you save someone's life? We're u in a resuscitation situation for 4 solid hours? Then did you console the family when they thought they were going to loose a loved one?. Chances are no you didn't, that causes a huge mental strain on anyone in that situation. Then let's not forget once that's dealt with you then see another patient maybe a child and break news to there family the child has cancer?. Seriously come on what other job could be worse than breaking that to a parent Drs and nursing staff do it daily. In my opinion you can't compare any job to that of a dr as no normal job deals with life and death in such a way. | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
" The NHS is already 7 days, how don't you know that? seriously you need to sort your facts out before spouting ridiculous statements. The issue is weekend staffing levels, how don't you know that? Example: both our children were born after extremely long periods of labour. In one case the nursing staff didn't want to wake the junior doctor because she had had a busy day. Finally, at 8pm, when someone finally decided to do so, she immediately realised the junior midwife had misdiagnosed a breech-birth (despite both of us saying this for hours) and an emergency cesarean was ordered. Imagine how much better that could have been if there had been more than one junior doctor on duty... So the answer is invest and hire more doctors, not drive the existing ones away. Restructuring contracts also works. There's only a finite budget. Depends what you mean by 'works'? If your objective is to understaff the NHS, yes it will work. Why are doctors entitled to weekends off? It works scheduling them to work shifts at weekends, and not just being on call. It is frustrating that they're too precious to consider this maltreatment. Evidently you're just trolling. If you knew any doctors you'd know they work full shifts, at the weekend. Personally I don't consider it maltreatment or consider myself to be precious. Its simple economics. Childcare overnight and at weekends costs more. Disagreeing with you isn't trolling. I've dated several doctors and am friends with them too. And no, I don't know any doctor that works all weekend as a standard. Or on public holidays. It sounds like you believe doctors are too precious to be scheduled to work at weekends. I don't see why being scheduled to work Saturday evenings deserves extra pay. I don't request overtime from my director when I work Sunday's on UAE accounts as it's part of my job. Again, being a doctor is a choice. It is no one else's fault if they knowingly have a child they can't afford to support. Being offensive is trolling. Rather it is you who seems 'precious'. So what you're saying is that anyone having children should anticipate massive pay cuts and only have them when their salary is say, 150% of what they need to support them?! Never heard so much rubbish in all my life. No, that is not what the definition of trolling is. Tbh, the argument that "doctors need more money so they can have children" is silly." To reiterate the point, no doctor is asking for more money. | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
"Being offensive is trolling." You need to appreciate that debating a subject from the opposite side to you is not trolling. Sometimes it is simply a way of learning and understanding. Us engineers have a habit of being able to apply logic and reason dispassionately in order to solve tricky problems. Sometimes it earns us insults, sometimes it causes great advances in civilisation. (Not suggesting this is an example of the latter) | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
"13hours in the emergency department on your feet the whole time and using your mind aswell to keep patients alive is not quite the same as waiting for a system to start working again!!
Waiting? You clearly have never worked as a mechanical engineer. I'd definitely say, without question of a doubt, removing and installing a new pressure vessel system across 48 hours is more physically taxing than a 13 hour shift in a hospital. Use common sense.
I really wish at times people cold swap jobs for a month or so!. You really have no clue at all what it's like to work for the NHS or the strain a NHS staff member is under at work.
Picking up on some of your previous comments specifically about Drs and NHS staff taking breaks, yes we are entitled to breaks I get two half hour unpaid breaks in a 13 hour shift. In the last month I've lost 10.5 hours in breaks as its just too busy to take one, reason for this my patients come first and all the Drs I work with are the same many don't have breaks because we are too busy.
Next point is about functioning, New Year's Eve we were flat out! We got our first drink at 5pm having been at work since 7am, we only got that as the consultant could see we were all flagging having no food, drink, or toilet breaks.
In a normal non NHS job would this happen? Chances are no! Breaks would be taken and you would get drinks.
I think I'm some respect Drs have it much harder than us nursing staff, even though many nights we don't finish on time Drs are much worse.
I whole heartedly agree with action the jnr Drs are taking as without the likes of them the NHS couldn't and wouldn't function.
I don't think it's necessary. I think people need to be more considered before entering a career. However, I'm sure your days with missed breaks where you got to go home and shower and eat compares to that one example of my 2 constant days of working (I didn't have scheduled breaks either).
Oh sorry did you save someone's life? We're u in a resuscitation situation for 4 solid hours? Then did you console the family when they thought they were going to loose a loved one?. Chances are no you didn't, that causes a huge mental strain on anyone in that situation.
Then let's not forget once that's dealt with you then see another patient maybe a child and break news to there family the child has cancer?.
Seriously come on what other job could be worse than breaking that to a parent Drs and nursing staff do it daily.
In my opinion you can't compare any job to that of a dr as no normal job deals with life and death in such a way. "They chose to do that job, I'm not going to worship a doctor for doing a job that they're compensated for. It's absurd to expect that of me. They're not saints. Some are even shit at their jobs and treat patients awfully. In all honesty, I feel more for the patients in your examples than the doctors. | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
" The NHS is already 7 days, how don't you know that? seriously you need to sort your facts out before spouting ridiculous statements. The issue is weekend staffing levels, how don't you know that? Example: both our children were born after extremely long periods of labour. In one case the nursing staff didn't want to wake the junior doctor because she had had a busy day. Finally, at 8pm, when someone finally decided to do so, she immediately realised the junior midwife had misdiagnosed a breech-birth (despite both of us saying this for hours) and an emergency cesarean was ordered. Imagine how much better that could have been if there had been more than one junior doctor on duty... So the answer is invest and hire more doctors, not drive the existing ones away. Restructuring contracts also works. There's only a finite budget. Depends what you mean by 'works'? If your objective is to understaff the NHS, yes it will work. Why are doctors entitled to weekends off? It works scheduling them to work shifts at weekends, and not just being on call. It is frustrating that they're too precious to consider this maltreatment. Evidently you're just trolling. If you knew any doctors you'd know they work full shifts, at the weekend. Personally I don't consider it maltreatment or consider myself to be precious. Its simple economics. Childcare overnight and at weekends costs more. Disagreeing with you isn't trolling. I've dated several doctors and am friends with them too. And no, I don't know any doctor that works all weekend as a standard. Or on public holidays. It sounds like you believe doctors are too precious to be scheduled to work at weekends. I don't see why being scheduled to work Saturday evenings deserves extra pay. I don't request overtime from my director when I work Sunday's on UAE accounts as it's part of my job. Again, being a doctor is a choice. It is no one else's fault if they knowingly have a child they can't afford to support. Being offensive is trolling. Rather it is you who seems 'precious'. So what you're saying is that anyone having children should anticipate massive pay cuts and only have them when their salary is say, 150% of what they need to support them?! Never heard so much rubbish in all my life. No, that is not what the definition of trolling is. Tbh, the argument that "doctors need more money so they can have children" is silly. To reiterate the point, no doctor is asking for more money." Where is basic pay being reduced by 30%? | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
"Sometimes it earns us insults, sometimes it causes great advances in civilisation. " But not an enhanced rate | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
"13hours in the emergency department on your feet the whole time and using your mind aswell to keep patients alive is not quite the same as waiting for a system to start working again!!
Waiting? You clearly have never worked as a mechanical engineer. I'd definitely say, without question of a doubt, removing and installing a new pressure vessel system across 48 hours is more physically taxing than a 13 hour shift in a hospital. Use common sense.
I really wish at times people cold swap jobs for a month or so!. You really have no clue at all what it's like to work for the NHS or the strain a NHS staff member is under at work.
Picking up on some of your previous comments specifically about Drs and NHS staff taking breaks, yes we are entitled to breaks I get two half hour unpaid breaks in a 13 hour shift. In the last month I've lost 10.5 hours in breaks as its just too busy to take one, reason for this my patients come first and all the Drs I work with are the same many don't have breaks because we are too busy.
Next point is about functioning, New Year's Eve we were flat out! We got our first drink at 5pm having been at work since 7am, we only got that as the consultant could see we were all flagging having no food, drink, or toilet breaks.
In a normal non NHS job would this happen? Chances are no! Breaks would be taken and you would get drinks.
I think I'm some respect Drs have it much harder than us nursing staff, even though many nights we don't finish on time Drs are much worse.
I whole heartedly agree with action the jnr Drs are taking as without the likes of them the NHS couldn't and wouldn't function.
I don't think it's necessary. I think people need to be more considered before entering a career. However, I'm sure your days with missed breaks where you got to go home and shower and eat compares to that one example of my 2 constant days of working (I didn't have scheduled breaks either).
Oh sorry did you save someone's life? We're u in a resuscitation situation for 4 solid hours? Then did you console the family when they thought they were going to loose a loved one?. Chances are no you didn't, that causes a huge mental strain on anyone in that situation.
Then let's not forget once that's dealt with you then see another patient maybe a child and break news to there family the child has cancer?.
Seriously come on what other job could be worse than breaking that to a parent Drs and nursing staff do it daily.
In my opinion you can't compare any job to that of a dr as no normal job deals with life and death in such a way.
They chose to do that job, I'm not going to worship a doctor for doing a job that they're compensated for. It's absurd to expect that of me.
They're not saints. Some are even shit at their jobs and treat patients awfully. In all honesty, I feel more for the patients in your examples than the doctors. "I do hope then that when you need the NHS your treated by the Drs you say are shit, I guess they will match your attitude. | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
"Being offensive is trolling. You need to appreciate that debating a subject from the opposite side to you is not trolling. Sometimes it is simply a way of learning and understanding. Us engineers have a habit of being able to apply logic and reason dispassionately in order to solve tricky problems. Sometimes it earns us insults, sometimes it causes great advances in civilisation. (Not suggesting this is an example of the latter)" I am quite open to debate. I was referring to the inflammatory 'precious' remark. | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
" The NHS is already 7 days, how don't you know that? seriously you need to sort your facts out before spouting ridiculous statements. The issue is weekend staffing levels, how don't you know that? Example: both our children were born after extremely long periods of labour. In one case the nursing staff didn't want to wake the junior doctor because she had had a busy day. Finally, at 8pm, when someone finally decided to do so, she immediately realised the junior midwife had misdiagnosed a breech-birth (despite both of us saying this for hours) and an emergency cesarean was ordered. Imagine how much better that could have been if there had been more than one junior doctor on duty... So the answer is invest and hire more doctors, not drive the existing ones away. Restructuring contracts also works. There's only a finite budget. Depends what you mean by 'works'? If your objective is to understaff the NHS, yes it will work. Why are doctors entitled to weekends off? It works scheduling them to work shifts at weekends, and not just being on call. It is frustrating that they're too precious to consider this maltreatment. Evidently you're just trolling. If you knew any doctors you'd know they work full shifts, at the weekend. Personally I don't consider it maltreatment or consider myself to be precious. Its simple economics. Childcare overnight and at weekends costs more. Disagreeing with you isn't trolling. I've dated several doctors and am friends with them too. And no, I don't know any doctor that works all weekend as a standard. Or on public holidays. It sounds like you believe doctors are too precious to be scheduled to work at weekends. I don't see why being scheduled to work Saturday evenings deserves extra pay. I don't request overtime from my director when I work Sunday's on UAE accounts as it's part of my job. Again, being a doctor is a choice. It is no one else's fault if they knowingly have a child they can't afford to support. I'm confused here.. Are you suggesting that doctors shouldn't get paid for work? At the moment they get paid less than the minimum wage for any work they do out of hours. Are you suggesting that this should be cut to nothing? Out of hours work accounts for 40% of the average work a junior doctor does. Are you aware of what the 'New Deal' did to out of hours pay in 2000? Are you aware of what EWTD to their pay? Are you aware of what the last two decades of government pay re_iews have done to their pay? Obviously not. It seems that asking doctors to leave university with the largest debt, to start on an extremely low basic salary and to work 40% for free and never make a mistake is perfectly normal to expect. You're asking for answers to questions already discussed. Almost everyone in the world works for free. It's the nature of industry. I am aware of those things. I also don't believe £23k basic for an F1 is bad going." So essentially doctors are getting paid too much? Starting ward cleaner salary is £18k and lawyer first year is close to £30k. Doctors are employees to a point where the thousands the spend on further education and training are not reimbursed or even tax deductable. How does and FY1 become a consultant without throwing thousands on exams etc? How has that salary changed from a first year doctor starying twenty years ago? It's gone down by thousands. Drs work hours for free (check with any hospital EWTD officer), and barely get paid for out of hours. I appreciate that you worked two days for free but you obviously have no idea of what a doctor has to go through on a daily basis. But to be honest with you it doesn't really matter. Doctors are hard working and intelligent members of society (like so many others in and out of the health sector). Either they will win their case and keep their pay. Or lose which means waiting lists will go up etc and desperate patients will pay for things to be done privately which still relies on doctors. No matter what doctors will win in the long run, but if they lose now only patients will lose. | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
"13hours in the emergency department on your feet the whole time and using your mind aswell to keep patients alive is not quite the same as waiting for a system to start working again!!
Waiting? You clearly have never worked as a mechanical engineer. I'd definitely say, without question of a doubt, removing and installing a new pressure vessel system across 48 hours is more physically taxing than a 13 hour shift in a hospital. Use common sense.
I really wish at times people cold swap jobs for a month or so!. You really have no clue at all what it's like to work for the NHS or the strain a NHS staff member is under at work.
Picking up on some of your previous comments specifically about Drs and NHS staff taking breaks, yes we are entitled to breaks I get two half hour unpaid breaks in a 13 hour shift. In the last month I've lost 10.5 hours in breaks as its just too busy to take one, reason for this my patients come first and all the Drs I work with are the same many don't have breaks because we are too busy.
Next point is about functioning, New Year's Eve we were flat out! We got our first drink at 5pm having been at work since 7am, we only got that as the consultant could see we were all flagging having no food, drink, or toilet breaks.
In a normal non NHS job would this happen? Chances are no! Breaks would be taken and you would get drinks.
I think I'm some respect Drs have it much harder than us nursing staff, even though many nights we don't finish on time Drs are much worse.
I whole heartedly agree with action the jnr Drs are taking as without the likes of them the NHS couldn't and wouldn't function.
I don't think it's necessary. I think people need to be more considered before entering a career. However, I'm sure your days with missed breaks where you got to go home and shower and eat compares to that one example of my 2 constant days of working (I didn't have scheduled breaks either).
Oh sorry did you save someone's life? We're u in a resuscitation situation for 4 solid hours? Then did you console the family when they thought they were going to loose a loved one?. Chances are no you didn't, that causes a huge mental strain on anyone in that situation.
Then let's not forget once that's dealt with you then see another patient maybe a child and break news to there family the child has cancer?.
Seriously come on what other job could be worse than breaking that to a parent Drs and nursing staff do it daily.
In my opinion you can't compare any job to that of a dr as no normal job deals with life and death in such a way.
They chose to do that job, I'm not going to worship a doctor for doing a job that they're compensated for. It's absurd to expect that of me.
They're not saints. Some are even shit at their jobs and treat patients awfully. In all honesty, I feel more for the patients in your examples than the doctors.
I do hope then that when you need the NHS your treated by the Drs you say are shit, I guess they will match your attitude. "Lol, you have no clue. My NHS nephrologist refused to investigate further and referred me to palliative care. My kidney function is now near normal after paying for private care and requesting specific tests to identify the rare disease. I'm more than qualified to say some doctors are shit at their jobs. | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
" The NHS is already 7 days, how don't you know that? seriously you need to sort your facts out before spouting ridiculous statements. The issue is weekend staffing levels, how don't you know that? Example: both our children were born after extremely long periods of labour. In one case the nursing staff didn't want to wake the junior doctor because she had had a busy day. Finally, at 8pm, when someone finally decided to do so, she immediately realised the junior midwife had misdiagnosed a breech-birth (despite both of us saying this for hours) and an emergency cesarean was ordered. Imagine how much better that could have been if there had been more than one junior doctor on duty... So the answer is invest and hire more doctors, not drive the existing ones away. Restructuring contracts also works. There's only a finite budget. Depends what you mean by 'works'? If your objective is to understaff the NHS, yes it will work. Why are doctors entitled to weekends off? It works scheduling them to work shifts at weekends, and not just being on call. It is frustrating that they're too precious to consider this maltreatment. Evidently you're just trolling. If you knew any doctors you'd know they work full shifts, at the weekend. Personally I don't consider it maltreatment or consider myself to be precious. Its simple economics. Childcare overnight and at weekends costs more. Disagreeing with you isn't trolling. I've dated several doctors and am friends with them too. And no, I don't know any doctor that works all weekend as a standard. Or on public holidays. It sounds like you believe doctors are too precious to be scheduled to work at weekends. I don't see why being scheduled to work Saturday evenings deserves extra pay. I don't request overtime from my director when I work Sunday's on UAE accounts as it's part of my job. Again, being a doctor is a choice. It is no one else's fault if they knowingly have a child they can't afford to support. Being offensive is trolling. Rather it is you who seems 'precious'. So what you're saying is that anyone having children should anticipate massive pay cuts and only have them when their salary is say, 150% of what they need to support them?! Never heard so much rubbish in all my life. No, that is not what the definition of trolling is. Tbh, the argument that "doctors need more money so they can have children" is silly. To reiterate the point, no doctor is asking for more money. Where is basic pay being reduced by 30%? " Overall, not basic. The fact you ask about 'basic' pay shows you're well aware of this. | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
" The NHS is already 7 days, how don't you know that? seriously you need to sort your facts out before spouting ridiculous statements. The issue is weekend staffing levels, how don't you know that? Example: both our children were born after extremely long periods of labour. In one case the nursing staff didn't want to wake the junior doctor because she had had a busy day. Finally, at 8pm, when someone finally decided to do so, she immediately realised the junior midwife had misdiagnosed a breech-birth (despite both of us saying this for hours) and an emergency cesarean was ordered. Imagine how much better that could have been if there had been more than one junior doctor on duty... So the answer is invest and hire more doctors, not drive the existing ones away. Restructuring contracts also works. There's only a finite budget. Depends what you mean by 'works'? If your objective is to understaff the NHS, yes it will work. Why are doctors entitled to weekends off? It works scheduling them to work shifts at weekends, and not just being on call. It is frustrating that they're too precious to consider this maltreatment. Evidently you're just trolling. If you knew any doctors you'd know they work full shifts, at the weekend. Personally I don't consider it maltreatment or consider myself to be precious. Its simple economics. Childcare overnight and at weekends costs more. Disagreeing with you isn't trolling. I've dated several doctors and am friends with them too. And no, I don't know any doctor that works all weekend as a standard. Or on public holidays. It sounds like you believe doctors are too precious to be scheduled to work at weekends. I don't see why being scheduled to work Saturday evenings deserves extra pay. I don't request overtime from my director when I work Sunday's on UAE accounts as it's part of my job. Again, being a doctor is a choice. It is no one else's fault if they knowingly have a child they can't afford to support. I'm confused here.. Are you suggesting that doctors shouldn't get paid for work? At the moment they get paid less than the minimum wage for any work they do out of hours. Are you suggesting that this should be cut to nothing? Out of hours work accounts for 40% of the average work a junior doctor does. Are you aware of what the 'New Deal' did to out of hours pay in 2000? Are you aware of what EWTD to their pay? Are you aware of what the last two decades of government pay re_iews have done to their pay? Obviously not. It seems that asking doctors to leave university with the largest debt, to start on an extremely low basic salary and to work 40% for free and never make a mistake is perfectly normal to expect. You're asking for answers to questions already discussed. Almost everyone in the world works for free. It's the nature of industry. I am aware of those things. I also don't believe £23k basic for an F1 is bad going. So essentially doctors are getting paid too much? Starting ward cleaner salary is £18k and lawyer first year is close to £30k. Doctors are employees to a point where the thousands the spend on further education and training are not reimbursed or even tax deductable. How does and FY1 become a consultant without throwing thousands on exams etc? How has that salary changed from a first year doctor starying twenty years ago? It's gone down by thousands. Drs work hours for free (check with any hospital EWTD officer), and barely get paid for out of hours. I appreciate that you worked two days for free but you obviously have no idea of what a doctor has to go through on a daily basis. But to be honest with you it doesn't really matter. Doctors are hard working and intelligent members of society (like so many others in and out of the health sector). Either they will win their case and keep their pay. Or lose which means waiting lists will go up etc and desperate patients will pay for things to be done privately which still relies on doctors. No matter what doctors will win in the long run, but if they lose now only patients will lose." Oh make up your mind on what you believe I'm saying, you're now just picking things out of the air. I am aware of what doctors do, however I don't believe that this strike isn't motivated by greed. | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
"To reiterate the point, no doctor is asking for more money " I think the implication of their latest position is that they are asking for more than is currently being offered. Whether or not that is more than their current contracts those of us outside cannot tell, since one side says it is, the other it isn't. The problem the union have is that once you tell one easily debunked lie, everything else you say loses value. | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
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| |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
" So essentially doctors are getting paid too much? Starting ward cleaner salary is £18k and lawyer first year is close to £30k. Doctors are employees to a point where the thousands the spend on further education and training are not reimbursed or even tax deductable. How does and FY1 become a consultant without throwing thousands on exams etc? " And how many hundreds of thousands do we shell out for their training? Let them keep their enhanced rate if they're happy to cover their own training costs. | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
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" Thats part of the problem because even those reporting it don't fully explain what is actually happening and being proposed." Sadly that's often the problem
As a final word I'd just like to reiterate that I don't think anyone doubts the hard and valuable work that many in the NHS do, especially in A&E.
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"Just finished my shift early because my daughter has been taken into hospital with high blood pressure. No one has suffered today on my ward everyone nurses and the doctors have come together like we do every single time there is a crisis to avoid any suffer ring it's what we do best. the NHS is ours Free at the point of need from the cradle to the grave. Please stop slating us. The Doctors are out to protect patient care not to make money. I for one salute them x The overworked reason for striking is fine, however so many junior doctors are going on the record as being underpaid. It's out of touch. They have not said underpaid on any article, news item or quote I have seen anywhere...even in the Tory rags! What they are facing is extra hours without any increase (which they don't want...what they need is higher staffing levels). This then amounts to a pay cut (on a per hour basis) which could amount to as much as 30%. My daughter is a Junior Doctor....currently working 70+ hours a week for £23k gross...before taxes etc...... And on top of this is expected to study to pass postgrad exams to progress in her career. She knew this before she started University seven years back.....but the goal posts are now being shifted!" . I always thought that the medical profession was one where you accepted low pay when young in order to receive a very kurcarive package much later in life . Whilst no one is denying the junior Doctors do probably work very long hours , they will nof be doing this all their lives . It is intereresting to note that at least one of the BMA union officials runs a very lucrative photography businness and other spokesmen can afford very expensive foreign holidays | |||
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