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"Curious as I've never read much about it, but seen as Moriarty mentioned it. Are Turkey building another Ottoman empire. I mean the evidence would at least suggest that there trying a little!" Turkey will always be an important country because of its location but a new ottoman empire sounds a bit far fetched. I think it's an empire that had some amazing achievements are are little known or appreciated here. | |||
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"Curious as I've never read much about it, but seen as Moriarty mentioned it. Are Turkey building another Ottoman empire. I mean the evidence would at least suggest that there trying a little!" No | |||
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"Now can we please debate how the ottoman empire managed to keep the middle east peaceful for the longest period of times its ever enjoyed and whether that is the solution (ish) to the region's problems... " Through violent, repressive means | |||
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"Now can we please debate how the ottoman empire managed to keep the middle east peaceful for the longest period of times its ever enjoyed and whether that is the solution (ish) to the region's problems... " Romans? | |||
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"Now can we please debate how the ottoman empire managed to keep the middle east peaceful for the longest period of times its ever enjoyed and whether that is the solution (ish) to the region's problems... Through violent, repressive means "That's a relative term though. Certainly not as violent as ISIS or the Taliban! Repressive isn't a word I would use either, i think they were very tolerant of religious groups and cultural differences, again a relative concept. | |||
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"Now can we please debate how the ottoman empire managed to keep the middle east peaceful for the longest period of times its ever enjoyed and whether that is the solution (ish) to the region's problems... Through violent, repressive means
That's a relative term though. Certainly not as violent as ISIS or the Taliban! Repressive isn't a word I would use either, i think they were very tolerant of religious groups and cultural differences, again a relative concept. "Cultural relativism sucks tho', no? | |||
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" Romans?" I suspect the People's Judean Front would dispute that... 
Mr ddc | |||
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"Now can we please debate how the ottoman empire managed to keep the middle east peaceful for the longest period of times its ever enjoyed and whether that is the solution (ish) to the region's problems... Through violent, repressive means
That's a relative term though. Certainly not as violent as ISIS or the Taliban! Repressive isn't a word I would use either, i think they were very tolerant of religious groups and cultural differences, again a relative concept.
Cultural relativism sucks tho', no?"Why? It would suck if we were all the same... | |||
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"Look at their treatment of women, I'd rather have war than live like that." But then you are a feisty one | |||
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"Now can we please debate how the ottoman empire managed to keep the middle east peaceful for the longest period of times its ever enjoyed and whether that is the solution (ish) to the region's problems... " . Yeah that's my point | |||
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"Look at their treatment of women, I'd rather have war than live like that." . That's easy for you to say. I'm a hetrosexual male | |||
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"Look at their treatment of women, I'd rather have war than live like that. But then you are a feisty one "I still don't like the mistreatment of women for the sake of it. | |||
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"Empire or not, the Turks have appalling human rights." . But not as bad as some! Surely we pick the least worst in life | |||
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"Look at their treatment of women, I'd rather have war than live like that.. That's easy for you to say. I'm a hetrosexual male" It doesn't matter what sex, either one agrees with the subjugation of women. | |||
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" Romans? I suspect the People's Judean Front would dispute that...
Mr ddc". Splitter  | |||
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"Now can we please debate how the ottoman empire managed to keep the middle east peaceful for the longest period of times its ever enjoyed and whether that is the solution (ish) to the region's problems... . Yeah that's my point" OK well Turkey isn't the right country to play that role | |||
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"Empire or not, the Turks have appalling human rights.. But not as bad as some! Surely we pick the least worst in life" I prefer what we've got, the Turks can stay away for me. | |||
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" Romans? I suspect the People's Judean Front would dispute that...
Mr ddc""PEACE??! Shut up!!!" | |||
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"Now can we please debate how the ottoman empire managed to keep the middle east peaceful for the longest period of times its ever enjoyed and whether that is the solution (ish) to the region's problems... . Yeah that's my point OK well Turkey isn't the right country to play that role " It's hard to say who could be. | |||
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"Empire or not, the Turks have appalling human rights.. But not as bad as some! Surely we pick the least worst in life" The Saudis; very keen on head and limb lopping :/ | |||
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" Romans? I suspect the People's Judean Front would dispute that...
Mr ddc
"PEACE??! Shut up!!!""It's "Peace out" not "Peace shut up"  | |||
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"Look at their treatment of women, I'd rather have war than live like that.. That's easy for you to say. I'm a hetrosexual male It doesn't matter what sex, either one agrees with the subjugation of women." . Surely one can agree that you should be subjugated... Providing I'm not one of the subjugated!. Try and think of it like this... It will keep the hard core Muslims happy! And at the end of the day... Were all interested in happiness | |||
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"Now can we please debate how the ottoman empire managed to keep the middle east peaceful for the longest period of times its ever enjoyed and whether that is the solution (ish) to the region's problems... . Yeah that's my point OK well Turkey isn't the right country to play that role " . Well they did well before! There secular, they separate church from politics, OK they shoot the odd Russian plane down, hey we all hate the Russians more? | |||
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"Now can we please debate how the ottoman empire managed to keep the middle east peaceful for the longest period of times its ever enjoyed and whether that is the solution (ish) to the region's problems... . Yeah that's my point OK well Turkey isn't the right country to play that role . Well they did well before! There secular, they separate church from politics, OK they shoot the odd Russian plane down, hey we all hate the Russians more?" Who hates the Ruskies? | |||
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"Now can we please debate how the ottoman empire managed to keep the middle east peaceful for the longest period of times its ever enjoyed and whether that is the solution (ish) to the region's problems... Through violent, repressive means
That's a relative term though. Certainly not as violent as ISIS or the Taliban! Repressive isn't a word I would use either, i think they were very tolerant of religious groups and cultural differences, again a relative concept.
Cultural relativism sucks tho', no?
Why? It would suck if we were all the same... "Apropos: Proposition 1: Moral relativists claim that there are no absolute moral standards. Proposition 2: The claim "All moral standards are relative" proposes an absolute moral standard. Proposition 3. To propose there are no absolute moral standards using an absolute moral standard is illogical. QED the relativist's claim "All moral standards are relative" is illogical.  | |||
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" Romans? I suspect the People's Judean Front would dispute that...
Mr ddc
"PEACE??! Shut up!!!"
It's "Peace out" not "Peace shut up" "Peace off :P | |||
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"If we're all interested in happiness why at the expense of women? ". Because intrinsically you're all sex slaves? No seriously, to keep alot of us happy you have to diss somebody  | |||
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"If we're all interested in happiness why at the expense of women? .
Because intrinsically you're all sex slaves?
No seriously, to keep alot of us happy you have to diss somebody "i wish you luck on here with your misogynist beliefs | |||
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"The Turks won't want to expand much, held their surrounding land is Kurdish and I can't see them wanting more of that! They're more likely to increase repression and media control in their own country following the Putin model " . Are you an adviser for erdogan | |||
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"If we're all interested in happiness why at the expense of women? .
Because intrinsically you're all sex slaves?
No seriously, to keep alot of us happy you have to diss somebody "Wow! That's quite a statement. | |||
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"If we're all interested in happiness why at the expense of women? .
Because intrinsically you're all sex slaves?
No seriously, to keep alot of us happy you have to diss somebody
i wish you luck on here with your misogynist beliefs ". I was being sarcastic! | |||
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"If we're all interested in happiness why at the expense of women? .
Because intrinsically you're all sex slaves?
No seriously, to keep alot of us happy you have to diss somebody
Wow!
That's quite a statement.
"Fabicide I think they call it | |||
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"If we're all interested in happiness why at the expense of women? .
Because intrinsically you're all sex slaves?
No seriously, to keep alot of us happy you have to diss somebody
i wish you luck on here with your misogynist beliefs .
I was being sarcastic!"In every post, I think not | |||
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"The Turks won't want to expand much, held their surrounding land is Kurdish and I can't see them wanting more of that! They're more likely to increase repression and media control in their own country following the Putin model " I was co-incidentally looking at Vladimir Putin's sea-side palace this evening. For an estimated $340 mllion, you'd think he'd have better taste https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Putin%27s_Palace http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-17730959 | |||
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"The Turks won't want to expand much, held their surrounding land is Kurdish and I can't see them wanting more of that! They're more likely to increase repression and media control in their own country following the Putin model I was co-incidentally looking at Vladimir Putin's sea-side palace this evening. For an estimated $340 mllion, you'd think he'd have better taste https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Putin%27s_Palace http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-17730959" It's really chintzy inside | |||
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"The Turks won't want to expand much, held their surrounding land is Kurdish and I can't see them wanting more of that! They're more likely to increase repression and media control in their own country following the Putin model . Are you an adviser for erdogan "No he came up with that by himself (Well saw Putin do it who saw countless others do it before him etc) | |||
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"The Turks won't want to expand much, held their surrounding land is Kurdish and I can't see them wanting more of that! They're more likely to increase repression and media control in their own country following the Putin model I was co-incidentally looking at Vladimir Putin's sea-side palace this evening. For an estimated $340 mllion, you'd think he'd have better taste https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Putin%27s_Palace http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-17730959 It's really chintzy inside" Oh, and three helipads, it's own power plant, a dock for yachts... it's just needs a white Persian cat for Putin to stroke... Somethin' else. | |||
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"The Turks won't want to expand much, held their surrounding land is Kurdish and I can't see them wanting more of that! They're more likely to increase repression and media control in their own country following the Putin model I was co-incidentally looking at Vladimir Putin's sea-side palace this evening. For an estimated $340 mllion, you'd think he'd have better taste https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Putin%27s_Palace http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-17730959 It's really chintzy inside Oh, and three helipads, it's own power plant, a dock for yachts... it's just needs a white Persian cat for Putin to stroke... Somethin' else. " Watching a dead man in that BBC footage | |||
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"Ok so this isnt the thread i was expecting it to be.. i'll go put my bedding back in the airing cupboard and await another thread about storage "LOOOOOOOOL! | |||
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"Now can we please debate how the ottoman empire managed to keep the middle east peaceful for the longest period of times its ever enjoyed and whether that is the solution (ish) to the region's problems... Through violent, repressive means
That's a relative term though. Certainly not as violent as ISIS or the Taliban! Repressive isn't a word I would use either, i think they were very tolerant of religious groups and cultural differences, again a relative concept.
Cultural relativism sucks tho', no?
Why? It would suck if we were all the same...
Apropos:
Proposition 1: Moral relativists claim that there are no absolute moral standards.
Proposition 2: The claim "All moral standards are relative" proposes an absolute moral standard.
Proposition 3. To propose there are no absolute moral standards using an absolute moral standard is illogical.
QED the relativist's claim "All moral standards are relative" is illogical.
"Uh huh and who said it was "all" moral standards? There's some common beliefs and some that are different. Personally I like having other parts of the world with different standards. That way, people who don't like ours can fuck off there instead of trying to turn our country into some kind of stupid utopia. | |||
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"Now can we please debate how the ottoman empire managed to keep the middle east peaceful for the longest period of times its ever enjoyed and whether that is the solution (ish) to the region's problems... . Yeah that's my point OK well Turkey isn't the right country to play that role . Well they did well before! There secular, they separate church from politics, OK they shoot the odd Russian plane down, hey we all hate the Russians more?" Secular isn't a benefit in this context. You won't like the answer about who the regional power should be... | |||
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"Ok so this isnt the thread i was expecting it to be" You were hoping for more on Mehmet II? | |||
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"Look at their treatment of women, I'd rather have war than live like that." spoken like someone who hasn't experienced war.. sadly in war and conflict women are treated pretty disgustingly by some, not sure its anywhere near as bad as that .. | |||
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"At its peak it was one of the greatest Empires ever ... " I'll see your Ottoman and raise you an Aztec  | |||
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"Look at their treatment of women, I'd rather have war than live like that. spoken like someone who hasn't experienced war.. sadly in war and conflict women are treated pretty disgustingly by some, not sure its anywhere near as bad as that .." It's true I haven't but I would not want to live in a society that has no respect for women. | |||
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"Look at their treatment of women, I'd rather have war than live like that. spoken like someone who hasn't experienced war.. sadly in war and conflict women are treated pretty disgustingly by some, not sure its anywhere near as bad as that .. It's true I haven't but I would not want to live in a society that has no respect for women." i share that view .. but it is usually the case that women suffer in conflict, not improve their lot.. | |||
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"Look at their treatment of women, I'd rather have war than live like that. spoken like someone who hasn't experienced war.. sadly in war and conflict women are treated pretty disgustingly by some, not sure its anywhere near as bad as that .. It's true I haven't but I would not want to live in a society that has no respect for women. i share that view .. but it is usually the case that women suffer in conflict, not improve their lot.. " In the war, no doubt. The unfortunate truth is that most countries that have good prospects for women normally achieved it by having a particular war at some stage in their past. We can all be grateful that this country got that over and done with in 1651 to set in motion the trends that would lead to what we enjoy now. | |||
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"If we're all interested in happiness why at the expense of women? .
Because intrinsically you're all sex slaves?
No seriously, to keep alot of us happy you have to diss somebody
i wish you luck on here with your misogynist beliefs .
I was being sarcastic!
In every post, I think not ". Yes in every post! Sometimes I'm so sarcastic, I don't even get it myself I'm just hoping somebody else does | |||
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"Now can we please debate how the ottoman empire managed to keep the middle east peaceful for the longest period of times its ever enjoyed and whether that is the solution (ish) to the region's problems... . Yeah that's my point OK well Turkey isn't the right country to play that role . Well they did well before! There secular, they separate church from politics, OK they shoot the odd Russian plane down, hey we all hate the Russians more? Secular isn't a benefit in this context. You won't like the answer about who the regional power should be... " . If your flirting with me, the answer is me | |||
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"Now can we please debate how the ottoman empire managed to keep the middle east peaceful for the longest period of times its ever enjoyed and whether that is the solution (ish) to the region's problems... . Yeah that's my point OK well Turkey isn't the right country to play that role . Well they did well before! There secular, they separate church from politics, OK they shoot the odd Russian plane down, hey we all hate the Russians more? Secular isn't a benefit in this context. You won't like the answer about who the regional power should be... . If your flirting with me, the answer is me "I've said the answer before on forums and lots of people don't like it. But then the best answers are usually unpopular because they aren't perfect. It's also a very misunderstood country based on awful biased reporting from the BBC and others... | |||
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"The Turks won't want to expand much, held their surrounding land is Kurdish and I can't see them wanting more of that! They're more likely to increase repression and media control in their own country following the Putin model I was co-incidentally looking at Vladimir Putin's sea-side palace this evening. For an estimated $340 mllion, you'd think he'd have better taste https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Putin%27s_Palace http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-17730959 It's really chintzy inside Oh, and three helipads, it's own power plant, a dock for yachts... it's just needs a white Persian cat for Putin to stroke... Somethin' else. " Reminds me of goldfinger .. | |||
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"Now can we please debate how the ottoman empire managed to keep the middle east peaceful for the longest period of times its ever enjoyed and whether that is the solution (ish) to the region's problems... . Yeah that's my point OK well Turkey isn't the right country to play that role . Well they did well before! There secular, they separate church from politics, OK they shoot the odd Russian plane down, hey we all hate the Russians more? Secular isn't a benefit in this context. You won't like the answer about who the regional power should be... . If your flirting with me, the answer is me
I've said the answer before on forums and lots of people don't like it. But then the best answers are usually unpopular because they aren't perfect. It's also a very misunderstood country based on awful biased reporting from the BBC and others... "Basically your choices are Egypt, Turkey, Iran, Iraq or Saudi Arabia. -Turkey isn't strong enough. -Iran should be a non-starter. -We did a good job of making Iraq even worse. -Egypt is a clusterfuck for different reasons. There's only 1 pro-western country in the region with the finances, weapons and clout to do the job. Whilst it's far from perfect and not ready yet, that's my answer. There is a lot of BS about them in the news, they have one of the best domestic anti-terrorism records in the world (better than ours) and despite the BS, they hate fundamentalist terrorists as much as we do for the obvious reason that royal families don't like threats to their existence. | |||
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"At its peak it was one of the greatest Empires ever ... " Stunning period mosques gold leaf and painting/Inscriptions Inside. | |||
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"The Turks won't want to expand much, held their surrounding land is Kurdish and I can't see them wanting more of that! They're more likely to increase repression and media control in their own country following the Putin model I was co-incidentally looking at Vladimir Putin's sea-side palace this evening. For an estimated $340 mllion, you'd think he'd have better taste https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Putin%27s_Palace http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-17730959 It's really chintzy inside" Just like Putin! | |||
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"Now can we please debate how the ottoman empire managed to keep the middle east peaceful for the longest period of times its ever enjoyed and whether that is the solution (ish) to the region's problems... . Yeah that's my point OK well Turkey isn't the right country to play that role . Well they did well before! There secular, they separate church from politics, OK they shoot the odd Russian plane down, hey we all hate the Russians more? Secular isn't a benefit in this context. You won't like the answer about who the regional power should be... . If your flirting with me, the answer is me
I've said the answer before on forums and lots of people don't like it. But then the best answers are usually unpopular because they aren't perfect. It's also a very misunderstood country based on awful biased reporting from the BBC and others...
Basically your choices are Egypt, Turkey, Iran, Iraq or Saudi Arabia.
-Turkey isn't strong enough.
-Iran should be a non-starter.
-We did a good job of making Iraq even worse.
-Egypt is a clusterfuck for different reasons.
There's only 1 pro-western country in the region with the finances, weapons and clout to do the job. Whilst it's far from perfect and not ready yet, that's my answer. There is a lot of BS about them in the news, they have one of the best domestic anti-terrorism records in the world (better than ours) and despite the BS, they hate fundamentalist terrorists as much as we do for the obvious reason that royal families don't like threats to their existence."This profile speaks like a man | |||
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"Now can we please debate how the ottoman empire managed to keep the middle east peaceful for the longest period of times its ever enjoyed and whether that is the solution (ish) to the region's problems... Through violent, repressive means
That's a relative term though. Certainly not as violent as ISIS or the Taliban! Repressive isn't a word I would use either, i think they were very tolerant of religious groups and cultural differences, again a relative concept.
Cultural relativism sucks tho', no?
Why? It would suck if we were all the same...
Apropos:
Proposition 1: Moral relativists claim that there are no absolute moral standards.
Proposition 2: The claim "All moral standards are relative" proposes an absolute moral standard.
Proposition 3. To propose there are no absolute moral standards using an absolute moral standard is illogical.
QED the relativist's claim "All moral standards are relative" is illogical.
Uh huh and who said it was "all" moral standards? There's some common beliefs and some that are different. Personally I like having other parts of the world with different standards. That way, people who don't like ours can fuck off there instead of trying to turn our country into some kind of stupid utopia. "Once more with feeling: Proposition 1: Torturing babies just for fun has been considered immoral throughout the world and throughout history. Proposition 2. The existence of a universal and timeless standard implies there is probably an absolute standard. QED Therefore, an absolute standard of morality probably exists. imo | |||
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"Now can we please debate how the ottoman empire managed to keep the middle east peaceful for the longest period of times its ever enjoyed and whether that is the solution (ish) to the region's problems... Through violent, repressive means
That's a relative term though. Certainly not as violent as ISIS or the Taliban! Repressive isn't a word I would use either, i think they were very tolerant of religious groups and cultural differences, again a relative concept.
Cultural relativism sucks tho', no?
Why? It would suck if we were all the same...
Apropos:
Proposition 1: Moral relativists claim that there are no absolute moral standards.
Proposition 2: The claim "All moral standards are relative" proposes an absolute moral standard.
Proposition 3. To propose there are no absolute moral standards using an absolute moral standard is illogical.
QED the relativist's claim "All moral standards are relative" is illogical.
Uh huh and who said it was "all" moral standards? There's some common beliefs and some that are different. Personally I like having other parts of the world with different standards. That way, people who don't like ours can fuck off there instead of trying to turn our country into some kind of stupid utopia.
Once more with feeling:
Proposition 1: Torturing babies just for fun has been considered immoral throughout the world and throughout history.
Proposition 2. The existence of a universal and timeless standard implies there is probably an absolute standard.
QED Therefore, an absolute standard of morality probably exists.
imo"Uh huh (again) but that absolute moral standard isn't going to cover everything is it? | |||
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"Uh huh (again) but that absolute moral standard isn't going to cover everything is it? " Uh huh... but no more than blanket statements: "Now can we please debate how the ottoman empire managed to keep the middle east peaceful for the longest period of times its ever enjoyed and whether that is the solution (ish) to the region's problems..." Come now. Elucidate your thoughts... Explain how a return to Ottoman rule would benefit the Middle East/eastern Med and beyond... | |||
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"Now can we please debate how the ottoman empire managed to keep the middle east peaceful for the longest period of times its ever enjoyed and whether that is the solution (ish) to the region's problems... Through violent, repressive means
That's a relative term though. Certainly not as violent as ISIS or the Taliban! Repressive isn't a word I would use either, i think they were very tolerant of religious groups and cultural differences, again a relative concept.
Cultural relativism sucks tho', no?
Why? It would suck if we were all the same...
Apropos:
Proposition 1: Moral relativists claim that there are no absolute moral standards.
Proposition 2: The claim "All moral standards are relative" proposes an absolute moral standard.
Proposition 3. To propose there are no absolute moral standards using an absolute moral standard is illogical.
QED the relativist's claim "All moral standards are relative" is illogical.
Uh huh and who said it was "all" moral standards? There's some common beliefs and some that are different. Personally I like having other parts of the world with different standards. That way, people who don't like ours can fuck off there instead of trying to turn our country into some kind of stupid utopia.
Once more with feeling:
Proposition 1: Torturing babies just for fun has been considered immoral throughout the world and throughout history.
Proposition 2. The existence of a universal and timeless standard implies there is probably an absolute standard.
QED Therefore, an absolute standard of morality probably exists.
imo
Uh huh (again) but that absolute moral standard isn't going to cover everything is it? "Or an absolute standard of immortality (sic) which is probably more probable | |||
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"Uh huh (again) but that absolute moral standard isn't going to cover everything is it? Uh huh... but no more than blanket statements: Now can we please debate how the ottoman empire managed to keep the middle east peaceful for the longest period of times its ever enjoyed and whether that is the solution (ish) to the region's problems... Come now. Elucidate your thoughts... Explain how a return to Ottoman rule would benefit the Middle East/eastern Med and beyond..." Well did you see my piece on the 5 options for a regional power above? | |||
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"Uh huh (again) but that absolute moral standard isn't going to cover everything is it? Uh huh... but no more than blanket statements: Now can we please debate how the ottoman empire managed to keep the middle east peaceful for the longest period of times its ever enjoyed and whether that is the solution (ish) to the region's problems... Come now. Elucidate your thoughts... Explain how a return to Ottoman rule would benefit the Middle East/eastern Med and beyond... Well did you see my piece on the 5 options for a regional power above? " Nope | |||
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"Uh huh (again) but that absolute moral standard isn't going to cover everything is it? Uh huh... but no more than blanket statements: Now can we please debate how the ottoman empire managed to keep the middle east peaceful for the longest period of times its ever enjoyed and whether that is the solution (ish) to the region's problems... Come now. Elucidate your thoughts... Explain how a return to Ottoman rule would benefit the Middle East/eastern Med and beyond... Well did you see my piece on the 5 options for a regional power above? " No, thumb cramp prevents me too | |||
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"Proposition 1 - the middle east needs a regional power to keep law and order Proposition 2 - Basically your choices are Egypt, Turkey, Iran, Iraq or Saudi Arabia. And then: -Turkey isn't strong enough. -Iran should be a non-starter. -We did a good job of making Iraq even worse. -Egypt is a clusterfuck for different reasons. There's only 1 pro-western country in the region with the finances, weapons and clout to do the job. Whilst it's far from perfect and not ready yet, that's my answer. There is a lot of BS about them in the news, they have one of the best domestic anti-terrorism records in the world (better than ours) and despite the BS, they hate fundamentalist terrorists as much as we do for the obvious reason that royal families don't like threats to their existence." What's Saudi got to do with the Ottoman Empire? | |||
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"Now can we please debate how the ottoman empire managed to keep the middle east peaceful for the longest period of times its ever enjoyed and whether that is the solution (ish) to the region's problems... . Yeah that's my point OK well Turkey isn't the right country to play that role . Well they did well before! There secular, they separate church from politics, OK they shoot the odd Russian plane down, hey we all hate the Russians more? Secular isn't a benefit in this context. You won't like the answer about who the regional power should be... . If your flirting with me, the answer is me
I've said the answer before on forums and lots of people don't like it. But then the best answers are usually unpopular because they aren't perfect. It's also a very misunderstood country based on awful biased reporting from the BBC and others... ". I actually agree with you!, and not just from your obvious flirting  .
The trouble with beliefs born out of wishful thinking (which is the 98% of people on here, yes even the educated ones!) Is there normally completely unworkable bollocks.
What the middle East needs right now, is the opposing counteracting force....
Ie Hussain, Gaddafi, Assad, these people are not monsters, there visionaries, with the foresight to see what's coming given a vacuum!.
Joe's a nice guy, but his belief structure is all left sided bollocks, he can't see the fact that the people he wants to help, wanna string him up from his bollocks for being a wayward fucker.
No what we need is more violence to counteract their violence.
It's the solution of all solutions!
Sarcasm, no not really, it's reality, no different than somebody in 1936 saying... You know that Nazi party... They could be trouble!.
No fucking shit Sherlock | |||
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"Proposition 1 - the middle east needs a regional power to keep law and order Proposition 2 - Basically your choices are Egypt, Turkey, Iran, Iraq or Saudi Arabia. And then: -Turkey isn't strong enough. -Iran should be a non-starter. -We did a good job of making Iraq even worse. -Egypt is a clusterfuck for different reasons. There's only 1 pro-western country in the region with the finances, weapons and clout to do the job. Whilst it's far from perfect and not ready yet, that's my answer. There is a lot of BS about them in the news, they have one of the best domestic anti-terrorism records in the world (better than ours) and despite the BS, they hate fundamentalist terrorists as much as we do for the obvious reason that royal families don't like threats to their existence. What's Saudi got to do with the Ottoman Empire?" Oh jeez keep up! The ottoman empire was the only regional power that kept the middle east peaceful and so the OP was asking whether Turkey could resume that role (in the abstract) and I'm arguing no, but Saudi could. Now you especially will hate that assertion so please provide a counter scenario so the debate may continue in an organised manner. | |||
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"Oh jeez keep up! The ottoman empire was the only regional power that kept the middle east peaceful and so the OP was asking whether Turkey could resume that role (in the abstract) and I'm arguing no, but Saudi could. Now you especially will hate that assertion so please provide a counter scenario so the debate may continue in an organised manner. " Temper, temper - some of us have been busy shagging
That's blatantly absurd. | |||
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"Now can we please debate how the ottoman empire managed to keep the middle east peaceful for the longest period of times its ever enjoyed and whether that is the solution (ish) to the region's problems... . Yeah that's my point OK well Turkey isn't the right country to play that role . Well they did well before! There secular, they separate church from politics, OK they shoot the odd Russian plane down, hey we all hate the Russians more? Secular isn't a benefit in this context. You won't like the answer about who the regional power should be... . If your flirting with me, the answer is me
I've said the answer before on forums and lots of people don't like it. But then the best answers are usually unpopular because they aren't perfect. It's also a very misunderstood country based on awful biased reporting from the BBC and others... .
I actually agree with you!, and not just from your obvious flirting .
The trouble with beliefs born out of wishful thinking (which is the 98% of people on here, yes even the educated ones!) Is there normally completely unworkable bollocks.
What the middle East needs right now, is the opposing counteracting force....
Ie Hussain, Gaddafi, Assad, these people are not monsters, there visionaries, with the foresight to see what's coming given a vacuum!.
Joe's a nice guy, but his belief structure is all left sided bollocks, he can't see the fact that the people he wants to help, wanna string him up from his bollocks for being a wayward fucker.
No what we need is more violence to counteract their violence.
It's the solution of all solutions!
Sarcasm, no not really, it's reality, no different than somebody in 1936 saying... You know that Nazi party... They could be trouble!.
No fucking shit Sherlock "Well I'm saying that peace is when one power has a monopoly on violence (e.g the police have a monopoly on violence in our borders) so if there was a country strong enough to wield that monopoly without abusing it then all the other fueds would pipe down. | |||
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"Oh jeez keep up! The ottoman empire was the only regional power that kept the middle east peaceful and so the OP was asking whether Turkey could resume that role (in the abstract) and I'm arguing no, but Saudi could. Now you especially will hate that assertion so please provide a counter scenario so the debate may continue in an organised manner. Temper, temper - some of us have been busy shagging
That's blatantly absurd. "I think you need to describe the problem before imposing a solution. So what is the problem with the Ottoman Empire? | |||
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"Oh jeez keep up! The ottoman empire was the only regional power that kept the middle east peaceful and so the OP was asking whether Turkey could resume that role (in the abstract) and I'm arguing no, but Saudi could. Now you especially will hate that assertion so please provide a counter scenario so the debate may continue in an organised manner. Temper, temper - some of us have been busy shagging
That's blatantly absurd.
I think you need to describe the problem before imposing a solution.
So what is the problem with the Ottoman Empire?"Ummm it doesn't exist anymore! Problem definition: The problem is that the region is an unstable clusterfuck of ethnic fueds, small wars and terrorism. Oh and that is actually the norm for the region too, bar the period when it had the ottoman empire. | |||
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"Oh jeez keep up! The ottoman empire was the only regional power that kept the middle east peaceful and so the OP was asking whether Turkey could resume that role (in the abstract) and I'm arguing no, but Saudi could. Now you especially will hate that assertion so please provide a counter scenario so the debate may continue in an organised manner. Temper, temper - some of us have been busy shagging
That's blatantly absurd. ". Temper is only something that ever comes into play, when the opposition refuses to acknowledge blatant facts!. The fact of the region is, it's only going to be controlled through violence, I might not like it, you might not like it... My mum might love it. But that's the reality. Hey I hate capitalism but I acknowledge its the best we've got! | |||
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"Now can we please debate how the ottoman empire managed to keep the middle east peaceful for the longest period of times its ever enjoyed and whether that is the solution (ish) to the region's problems... . Yeah that's my point OK well Turkey isn't the right country to play that role . Well they did well before! There secular, they separate church from politics, OK they shoot the odd Russian plane down, hey we all hate the Russians more? Secular isn't a benefit in this context. You won't like the answer about who the regional power should be... . If your flirting with me, the answer is me
I've said the answer before on forums and lots of people don't like it. But then the best answers are usually unpopular because they aren't perfect. It's also a very misunderstood country based on awful biased reporting from the BBC and others... .
I actually agree with you!, and not just from your obvious flirting .
The trouble with beliefs born out of wishful thinking (which is the 98% of people on here, yes even the educated ones!) Is there normally completely unworkable bollocks.
What the middle East needs right now, is the opposing counteracting force....
Ie Hussain, Gaddafi, Assad, these people are not monsters, there visionaries, with the foresight to see what's coming given a vacuum!.
Joe's a nice guy, but his belief structure is all left sided bollocks, he can't see the fact that the people he wants to help, wanna string him up from his bollocks for being a wayward fucker.
No what we need is more violence to counteract their violence.
It's the solution of all solutions!
Sarcasm, no not really, it's reality, no different than somebody in 1936 saying... You know that Nazi party... They could be trouble!.
No fucking shit Sherlock
Well I'm saying that peace is when one power has a monopoly on violence (e.g the police have a monopoly on violence in our borders) so if there was a country strong enough to wield that monopoly without abusing it then all the other fueds would pipe down. ". Too quote your good self.. Bingo! But who's not going to abuse power?. Not us not the US... Everybody abuses power, it's the nature of power! | |||
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"Now can we please debate how the ottoman empire managed to keep the middle east peaceful for the longest period of times its ever enjoyed and whether that is the solution (ish) to the region's problems... . Yeah that's my point OK well Turkey isn't the right country to play that role . Well they did well before! There secular, they separate church from politics, OK they shoot the odd Russian plane down, hey we all hate the Russians more? Secular isn't a benefit in this context. You won't like the answer about who the regional power should be... . If your flirting with me, the answer is me
I've said the answer before on forums and lots of people don't like it. But then the best answers are usually unpopular because they aren't perfect. It's also a very misunderstood country based on awful biased reporting from the BBC and others... .
I actually agree with you!, and not just from your obvious flirting .
The trouble with beliefs born out of wishful thinking (which is the 98% of people on here, yes even the educated ones!) Is there normally completely unworkable bollocks.
What the middle East needs right now, is the opposing counteracting force....
Ie Hussain, Gaddafi, Assad, these people are not monsters, there visionaries, with the foresight to see what's coming given a vacuum!.
Joe's a nice guy, but his belief structure is all left sided bollocks, he can't see the fact that the people he wants to help, wanna string him up from his bollocks for being a wayward fucker.
No what we need is more violence to counteract their violence.
It's the solution of all solutions!
Sarcasm, no not really, it's reality, no different than somebody in 1936 saying... You know that Nazi party... They could be trouble!.
No fucking shit Sherlock
Well I'm saying that peace is when one power has a monopoly on violence (e.g the police have a monopoly on violence in our borders) so if there was a country strong enough to wield that monopoly without abusing it then all the other fueds would pipe down. .
Too quote your good self..
Bingo!
But who's not going to abuse power?.
Not us not the US... Everybody abuses power, it's the nature of power!"Well I don't think the ottomans abused it compared to others... No judgement implied, but are you schizophrenic? | |||
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"Oh jeez keep up! The ottoman empire was the only regional power that kept the middle east peaceful and so the OP was asking whether Turkey could resume that role (in the abstract) and I'm arguing no, but Saudi could. Now you especially will hate that assertion so please provide a counter scenario so the debate may continue in an organised manner. Temper, temper - some of us have been busy shagging
That's blatantly absurd.
I think you need to describe the problem before imposing a solution.
So what is the problem with the Ottoman Empire?
Ummm it doesn't exist anymore!
Problem definition: The problem is that the region is an unstable clusterfuck of ethnic fueds, small wars and terrorism. Oh and that is actually the norm for the region too, bar the period when it had the ottoman empire."A strong man? Like they had in Iraq, Syria or Lybia? But a really big strong man? | |||
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"Oh jeez keep up! The ottoman empire was the only regional power that kept the middle east peaceful and so the OP was asking whether Turkey could resume that role (in the abstract) and I'm arguing no, but Saudi could. Now you especially will hate that assertion so please provide a counter scenario so the debate may continue in an organised manner. Temper, temper - some of us have been busy shagging
That's blatantly absurd.
I think you need to describe the problem before imposing a solution.
So what is the problem with the Ottoman Empire?
Ummm it doesn't exist anymore!
Problem definition: The problem is that the region is an unstable clusterfuck of ethnic fueds, small wars and terrorism. Oh and that is actually the norm for the region too, bar the period when it had the ottoman empire.
A strong man?
Like they had in Iraq, Syria or Lybia?
But a really big strong man?"No, the solution is not an individual person. Come on, what's your proposition now I've defined the problem...? | |||
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"A strong man? Like they had in Iraq, Syria or Lybia? But a really big strong man? No, the solution is not an individual person. Come on, what's your proposition now I've defined the problem...?" My proposition? That the proposition is facile... | |||
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"A strong man? Like they had in Iraq, Syria or Lybia? But a really big strong man? No, the solution is not an individual person. Come on, what's your proposition now I've defined the problem...? My proposition? That the proposition is facile..." You don't think the region is a clusterfuck that could be improved? | |||
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"Curious as I've never read much about it, but seen as Moriarty mentioned it. Are Turkey building another Ottoman empire. I mean the evidence would at least suggest that there trying a little! Turkey will always be an important country because of its location but a new ottoman empire sounds a bit far fetched. I think it's an empire that had some amazing achievements are are little known or appreciated here. " It is actually what I?S. (Diesh) are trying to do...... And why Turkey are doing their best to prevent the Kurds from standing up to I.S. The Ottoman Empire covered Syria, Iran, Iraq as well as Turkey and several other countries including southern/Eastern Europe as far as Austrian border. | |||
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"Curious as I've never read much about it, but seen as Moriarty mentioned it. Are Turkey building another Ottoman empire. I mean the evidence would at least suggest that there trying a little! Turkey will always be an important country because of its location but a new ottoman empire sounds a bit far fetched. I think it's an empire that had some amazing achievements are are little known or appreciated here. It is actually what I?S. (Diesh) are trying to do...... And why Turkey are doing their best to prevent the Kurds from standing up to I.S. The Ottoman Empire covered Syria, Iran, Iraq as well as Turkey and several other countries including southern/Eastern Europe as far as Austrian border." Well the ottomans were somewhat less restrictive than ISIS! For a start, you didn't get murdered for being non-muslim | |||
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"A strong man? Like they had in Iraq, Syria or Lybia? But a really big strong man? No, the solution is not an individual person. Come on, what's your proposition now I've defined the problem...? My proposition? That the proposition is facile..." There is the world as we may wish it to be and the world as it is. It entirely depends on which crisis you refer to... Israel/Palestine, Shai/Sunni fault line, the civil war in Syria, Kurdistan/the PKK... the basket cases we call Afghanistan and Pakistan &c &c &-bloody-c It used to be nice and simple - the US ran the show, and before that the British and the French, and the Ottomans, yey unto the Middle Ages... A return to that isn't practical. | |||
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"A strong man? Like they had in Iraq, Syria or Lybia? But a really big strong man? No, the solution is not an individual person. Come on, what's your proposition now I've defined the problem...? My proposition? That the proposition is facile... There is the world as we may wish it to be and the world as it is. It entirely depends on which crisis you refer to... Israel/Palestine, Shai/Sunni fault line, the civil war in Syria, Kurdistan/the PKK... the basket cases we call Afghanistan and Pakistan &c &c &-bloody-c It used to be nice and simple - the US ran the show, and before that the British and the French, and the Ottomans, yey unto the Middle Ages... A return to that isn't practical. " Well I'm refering to all those conflicts via the term "clusterfuck" and are saying that my solution is practical or that there isn't a solution? | |||
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"A strong man? Like they had in Iraq, Syria or Lybia? But a really big strong man? No, the solution is not an individual person. Come on, what's your proposition now I've defined the problem...? My proposition? That the proposition is facile... There is the world as we may wish it to be and the world as it is. It entirely depends on which crisis you refer to... Israel/Palestine, Shai/Sunni fault line, the civil war in Syria, Kurdistan/the PKK... the basket cases we call Afghanistan and Pakistan &c &c &-bloody-c It used to be nice and simple - the US ran the show, and before that the British and the French, and the Ottomans, yey unto the Middle Ages... A return to that isn't practical. Well I'm refering to all those conflicts via the term "clusterfuck" and are saying that my solution is practical or that there isn't a solution? " Are you secretly Tony Blair? He thought he could solve it | |||
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"A strong man? Like they had in Iraq, Syria or Lybia? But a really big strong man? No, the solution is not an individual person. Come on, what's your proposition now I've defined the problem...? My proposition? That the proposition is facile... There is the world as we may wish it to be and the world as it is. It entirely depends on which crisis you refer to... Israel/Palestine, Shai/Sunni fault line, the civil war in Syria, Kurdistan/the PKK... the basket cases we call Afghanistan and Pakistan &c &c &-bloody-c It used to be nice and simple - the US ran the show, and before that the British and the French, and the Ottomans, yey unto the Middle Ages... A return to that isn't practical. Well I'm refering to all those conflicts via the term "clusterfuck" and are saying that my solution is practical or that there isn't a solution? Are you secretly Tony Blair? He thought he could solve it" His approach and mine are somewhat different! | |||
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" Well the ottomans were somewhat less restrictive than ISIS! For a start, you didn't get murdered for being non-muslim" Read your history...they were not that much better when they spread into Europe...it was convert to Islam or die in most cases for most of the time. It was only towards the end (I.e. Late 19th and Early 20th century) when the last remnants were being propped up by the West that they moderated. | |||
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" Well the ottomans were somewhat less restrictive than ISIS! For a start, you didn't get murdered for being non-muslim Read your history...they were not that much better when they spread into Europe...it was convert to Islam or die in most cases for most of the time. It was only towards the end (I.e. Late 19th and Early 20th century) when the last remnants were being propped up by the West that they moderated." I don't believe that's true. They gave better rights to Muslims to encourage conversion. Which rulers are you specifically referring to? | |||
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" Well the ottomans were somewhat less restrictive than ISIS! For a start, you didn't get murdered for being non-muslim Read your history...they were not that much better when they spread into Europe...it was convert to Islam or die in most cases for most of the time. It was only towards the end (I.e. Late 19th and Early 20th century) when the last remnants were being propped up by the West that they moderated. I don't believe that's true. They gave better rights to Muslims to encourage conversion. Which rulers are you specifically referring to? " Um, and a tax on Christians and Jews... don't mention the Armenians... | |||
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" Well the ottomans were somewhat less restrictive than ISIS! For a start, you didn't get murdered for being non-muslim Read your history...they were not that much better when they spread into Europe...it was convert to Islam or die in most cases for most of the time. It was only towards the end (I.e. Late 19th and Early 20th century) when the last remnants were being propped up by the West that they moderated. I don't believe that's true. They gave better rights to Muslims to encourage conversion. Which rulers are you specifically referring to? Um, and a tax on Christians and Jews... don't mention the Armenians... " Well yeah the tax, the rights it's all part of the fact that they wanted to incentivise rather than force... looks bloody progressive next to ISIS and the Western occupation of Iraq was a text book case study in political stupidity. | |||
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" Well the ottomans were somewhat less restrictive than ISIS! For a start, you didn't get murdered for being non-muslim Read your history...they were not that much better when they spread into Europe...it was convert to Islam or die in most cases for most of the time. It was only towards the end (I.e. Late 19th and Early 20th century) when the last remnants were being propped up by the West that they moderated. I don't believe that's true. They gave better rights to Muslims to encourage conversion. Which rulers are you specifically referring to? Um, and a tax on Christians and Jews... don't mention the Armenians... Well yeah the tax, the rights it's all part of the fact that they wanted to incentivise rather than force... looks bloody progressive next to ISIS and the Western occupation of Iraq was a text book case study in political stupidity. " Agreed on the Iraq front but I don't see how turning back the clock to some harem-based theocracy is gonna help us. | |||
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" Well the ottomans were somewhat less restrictive than ISIS! For a start, you didn't get murdered for being non-muslim Read your history...they were not that much better when they spread into Europe...it was convert to Islam or die in most cases for most of the time. It was only towards the end (I.e. Late 19th and Early 20th century) when the last remnants were being propped up by the West that they moderated. I don't believe that's true. They gave better rights to Muslims to encourage conversion. Which rulers are you specifically referring to? Um, and a tax on Christians and Jews... don't mention the Armenians... Well yeah the tax, the rights it's all part of the fact that they wanted to incentivise rather than force... looks bloody progressive next to ISIS and the Western occupation of Iraq was a text book case study in political stupidity. " Try looking up the Batak massacre or the Armenian Genocide....over 1.5 million Christians slaughtered. Go back to 15th/16th century Bosnia. Try this link...? http://www.serbianna.com/columns/savich/014.shtml Then tell me they were nice and friendly and persuasive... | |||
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" Well the ottomans were somewhat less restrictive than ISIS! For a start, you didn't get murdered for being non-muslim Read your history...they were not that much better when they spread into Europe...it was convert to Islam or die in most cases for most of the time. It was only towards the end (I.e. Late 19th and Early 20th century) when the last remnants were being propped up by the West that they moderated. I don't believe that's true. They gave better rights to Muslims to encourage conversion. Which rulers are you specifically referring to? Um, and a tax on Christians and Jews... don't mention the Armenians... Well yeah the tax, the rights it's all part of the fact that they wanted to incentivise rather than force... looks bloody progressive next to ISIS and the Western occupation of Iraq was a text book case study in political stupidity. Try looking up the Batak massacre or the Armenian Genocide....over 1.5 million Christians slaughtered. Go back to 15th/16th century Bosnia. Try this link...? http://www.serbianna.com/columns/savich/014.shtml Then tell me they were nice and friendly and persuasive..." First of all, no empire is going to last 500 years without some stains on its conduct and you could find things akin to the Batak massacre in the history of the British empire. The Armenian one was right at the end of the empire and I think the empire was being run by a bunch a knob ends then anyway (the ones who lost in WW1). The source you posted doesn't exactly seem neutral but I'm not going to despite they weren't always tolerant and just. But if you compare their record to other empires, especially in the region, I challenge you to show me one that did a better job? | |||
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"I love how this forum brings out people nieve views of the world, politics and morals " What would a swinging site be without morals and politics? | |||
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"I love how this forum brings out people nieve views of the world, politics and morals What would a swinging site be without morals and politics? " Afternoon | |||
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"It was a Shame about the Saudi thread turning ridiculous but anyhow To answer Taoist Yes I'm aware they executed the shia imam, there'd been warned by nearly every shia country not to but the Saudis being the Saudis.. And that's my point, critical thinking in the middle East... It's just lacking. Any Muslim reformation that may occur will happen on the fringes ie the western Muslims, these are the people in my opinion that we should be helping and backing, I'm pretty sure there's shit loads of young British Muslim girls that wanna be freed from some of the fundermentalist aspects of Islam, yeah there'll be some who are happy following it to the letter but the "moderate" Muslim really is not getting any help being moderate in any western democracy with the exception of maybe France and that's probably why the French are feeling the backlash from the non moderates!. You know Saudi, Pakistan, Iran, Lebanon, Palestine, these countries are like 85% sharia supporters, if your rational thinking of adultery is stoning them to death.. I mean come on So to think we can apply western rational thinking inside the hardline circle of the middle East is really delusional... " 1) Sharia law is ill-defined and varies from place to place so the 85% is somewhat misleading 2) The Saudis are a benevolent dictatorship and won't tolerate opposition. It is what it is and if you don't like it, don't live there. There are plenty of other armpit countries in the region with healthy opposition (read: terrorism) and Saudi prizes itself on stability. Which is achieves. Brutally. I know I'd rather live in Saudi than Syria, Iraq, Iran, Yemen, Afghanistan or Pakistan. I just prefer the UK because we have Fab. | |||
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"It was a Shame about the Saudi thread turning ridiculous but anyhow To answer Taoist Yes I'm aware they executed the shia imam, there'd been warned by nearly every shia country not to but the Saudis being the Saudis.. And that's my point, critical thinking in the middle East... It's just lacking. Any Muslim reformation that may occur will happen on the fringes ie the western Muslims, these are the people in my opinion that we should be helping and backing, I'm pretty sure there's shit loads of young British Muslim girls that wanna be freed from some of the fundermentalist aspects of Islam, yeah there'll be some who are happy following it to the letter but the "moderate" Muslim really is not getting any help being moderate in any western democracy with the exception of maybe France and that's probably why the French are feeling the backlash from the non moderates!. You know Saudi, Pakistan, Iran, Lebanon, Palestine, these countries are like 85% sharia supporters, if your rational thinking of adultery is stoning them to death.. I mean come on So to think we can apply western rational thinking inside the hardline circle of the middle East is really delusional... 1) Sharia law is ill-defined and varies from place to place so the 85% is somewhat misleading 2) The Saudis are a benevolent dictatorship and won't tolerate opposition. It is what it is and if you don't like it, don't live there. There are plenty of other armpit countries in the region with healthy opposition (read: terrorism) and Saudi prizes itself on stability. Which is achieves. Brutally. I know I'd rather live in Saudi than Syria, Iraq, Iran, Yemen, Afghanistan or Pakistan. I just prefer the UK because we have Fab. " . The brutal Saudi dictatorship doesn't morally bother me that much to be honest! I know that sounds terrible and in a perfect world.. but at the end of the day and all | |||
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"It was a Shame about the Saudi thread turning ridiculous but anyhow To answer Taoist Yes I'm aware they executed the shia imam, there'd been warned by nearly every shia country not to but the Saudis being the Saudis.. And that's my point, critical thinking in the middle East... It's just lacking. Any Muslim reformation that may occur will happen on the fringes ie the western Muslims, these are the people in my opinion that we should be helping and backing, I'm pretty sure there's shit loads of young British Muslim girls that wanna be freed from some of the fundermentalist aspects of Islam, yeah there'll be some who are happy following it to the letter but the "moderate" Muslim really is not getting any help being moderate in any western democracy with the exception of maybe France and that's probably why the French are feeling the backlash from the non moderates!. You know Saudi, Pakistan, Iran, Lebanon, Palestine, these countries are like 85% sharia supporters, if your rational thinking of adultery is stoning them to death.. I mean come on So to think we can apply western rational thinking inside the hardline circle of the middle East is really delusional... 1) Sharia law is ill-defined and varies from place to place so the 85% is somewhat misleading 2) The Saudis are a benevolent dictatorship and won't tolerate opposition. It is what it is and if you don't like it, don't live there. There are plenty of other armpit countries in the region with healthy opposition (read: terrorism) and Saudi prizes itself on stability. Which is achieves. Brutally. I know I'd rather live in Saudi than Syria, Iraq, Iran, Yemen, Afghanistan or Pakistan. I just prefer the UK because we have Fab. . The brutal Saudi dictatorship doesn't morally bother me that much to be honest! I know that sounds terrible and in a perfect world.. but at the end of the day and all" I wouldn't call it brutal. Some of their actions are. But they aren't sadistic in the Saddam Hussein way or trying to terrorise their own citizens. Don't f with the royal family or offend the imams and they won't f with you. Saddam would f with people just to make sure someone was being f'ed with so people were constantly afraid. Morally I don't see anything wrong with them. Our moral high ground about human rights didn't last long when we debated guantanamo bay. | |||
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"Your preaching to the converted, I'm a leftist green not a daydreamer, there's something's that can be done and theres something's that can't right now!. My point was that it's delusional to belive that Saudi Arabia has any other option other than to be brutally putting down opposition!. The middle East is not the centre of the world on rational debate as a substitute for brutality" Well that's not very leftist of you... aren't their problems due to the inherent greed of the corrupting capitalist influence spanning from their overly fond relationship with the bourgeoisie west? You're the second green I've met on here. Apparently it's quite a sexually liberated party... | |||
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" You're the second green I've met on here. Apparently it's quite a sexually liberated party... " Pfft! Are you trying to say that putting your todger in the mouth of a dead pig ISN'T sexually liberated? Naked bike rides are tame in comparison to what the Tories get up to...
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" You're the second green I've met on here. Apparently it's quite a sexually liberated party... Pfft! Are you trying to say that putting your todger in the mouth of a dead pig ISN'T sexually liberated? Naked bike rides are tame in comparison to what the Tories get up to...
Mr ddc"Tories engage in posh boy rituals like soggy biscuit, but they do it out of tradition rather than the greens who are just lust filled rabbits | |||
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"Your preaching to the converted, I'm a leftist green not a daydreamer, there's something's that can be done and theres something's that can't right now!. My point was that it's delusional to belive that Saudi Arabia has any other option other than to be brutally putting down opposition!. The middle East is not the centre of the world on rational debate as a substitute for brutality Well that's not very leftist of you... aren't their problems due to the inherent greed of the corrupting capitalist influence spanning from their overly fond relationship with the bourgeoisie west? You're the second green I've met on here. Apparently it's quite a sexually liberated party... " . I've never been a big beliver in blaming everything on the west, sure we have our problems, but if you could choose anywhere to live in the world, I think most people would choose Europe for obvious reasons!. I don't hate right wing ideology, I just think it's wrong most of the time, same as capitalism is right most of the time but not always. I only describe myself as a leftist because I'm left on more issues than I'm right on. | |||
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" You're the second green I've met on here. Apparently it's quite a sexually liberated party... Pfft! Are you trying to say that putting your todger in the mouth of a dead pig ISN'T sexually liberated? Naked bike rides are tame in comparison to what the Tories get up to...
Mr ddc
Tories engage in posh boy rituals like soggy biscuit, but they do it out of tradition rather than the greens who are just lust filled rabbits". Greens are linked to hippy culture... It's Not always true! But I've meet a few who are | |||
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"Your preaching to the converted, I'm a leftist green not a daydreamer, there's something's that can be done and theres something's that can't right now!. My point was that it's delusional to belive that Saudi Arabia has any other option other than to be brutally putting down opposition!. The middle East is not the centre of the world on rational debate as a substitute for brutality Well that's not very leftist of you... aren't their problems due to the inherent greed of the corrupting capitalist influence spanning from their overly fond relationship with the bourgeoisie west? You're the second green I've met on here. Apparently it's quite a sexually liberated party... . I've never been a big beliver in blaming everything on the west, sure we have our problems, but if you could choose anywhere to live in the world, I think most people would choose Europe for obvious reasons!. I don't hate right wing ideology, I just think it's wrong most of the time, same as capitalism is right most of the time but not always. I only describe myself as a leftist because I'm left on more issues than I'm right on. " I'd go further and say that every ideology has parts that are wrong, almost by definition. What confuses me is why we need ideology, I don't know anyone who needs ideology to run a business. | |||
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"It was a Shame about the Saudi thread turning ridiculous but anyhow" I read that one, it looked sabotaged to me. | |||
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"Your preaching to the converted, I'm a leftist green not a daydreamer, there's something's that can be done and theres something's that can't right now!. My point was that it's delusional to belive that Saudi Arabia has any other option other than to be brutally putting down opposition!. The middle East is not the centre of the world on rational debate as a substitute for brutality Well that's not very leftist of you... aren't their problems due to the inherent greed of the corrupting capitalist influence spanning from their overly fond relationship with the bourgeoisie west? You're the second green I've met on here. Apparently it's quite a sexually liberated party... . I've never been a big beliver in blaming everything on the west, sure we have our problems, but if you could choose anywhere to live in the world, I think most people would choose Europe for obvious reasons!. I don't hate right wing ideology, I just think it's wrong most of the time, same as capitalism is right most of the time but not always. I only describe myself as a leftist because I'm left on more issues than I'm right on. " Actually I think most people would like to live in their own country, but before it was invaded by the west for spurious reasons to gain their oil or their economies manipulated for the benefit of the west. The history of the non-European world is littered with dictators or minority groups kept in power provided they obeyed European or USA's dictats. To return to the original proposition I suspect any county given the opportunity would aim for an empire, as empires subsist by exploiting its hegemony (see any history of empires but in particular Niall Ferguson Empire on the British Empire). As mentioned in a commentary above the Kurds or Armenians would not be keen on a Turkish empire. I would agree that Turkey does try to introduce some secular activity but the religious groups have a lot of power, that prevents progressive policies. However before we pat our backs here inthis part of Europe I would suggest watching EWTN the Catholic channel or attending some born again churches. They would turn the clock back and swinging and not sanctioned sexual activity would be high on their list of banned activities. | |||
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" Actually I think most people would like to live in their own country, but before it was invaded by the west for spurious reasons to gain their oil or their economies manipulated for the benefit of the west. " Could you please name a country in the middle east that we've ever made a net profit by invading? | |||
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" Actually I think most people would like to live in their own country, but before it was invaded by the west for spurious reasons to gain their oil or their economies manipulated for the benefit of the west. Could you please name a country in the middle east that we've ever made a net profit by invading? " USA and Iraq, there was an analysis a while ago of the money going in and going out, and Iraq turned out to be paying for the cost of the invasion. | |||
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" Actually I think most people would like to live in their own country, but before it was invaded by the west for spurious reasons to gain their oil or their economies manipulated for the benefit of the west. Could you please name a country in the middle east that we've ever made a net profit by invading? USA and Iraq, there was an analysis a while ago of the money going in and going out, and Iraq turned out to be paying for the cost of the invasion." I can only find a report that says the war cost $1.7trn as of 2013. What exactly was the revenue gained from this expenditure given that oil revenues Iraqi government, not the invading force? | |||
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" Actually I think most people would like to live in their own country, but before it was invaded by the west for spurious reasons to gain their oil or their economies manipulated for the benefit of the west. Could you please name a country in the middle east that we've ever made a net profit by invading? USA and Iraq, there was an analysis a while ago of the money going in and going out, and Iraq turned out to be paying for the cost of the invasion. I can only find a report that says the war cost $1.7trn as of 2013. What exactly was the revenue gained from this expenditure given that oil revenues Iraqi government, not the invading force?" OK well in the interest of full disclosure, Iraq has a GDP of $223 billion and approximately 70% of that comes from oil. Remember that's revenue, not profit. The Iraq war cost somewhere between $1.7 trillion and $6 trillion depending on what you include. So even if you did a good old medieval looting of the entire country, every year since the invasion I struggle to see how you get a net profit on that cost? | |||
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"I think the point put forward relates to a post war appreciation of the position. You can google the fact that the actual cost of the war turned out to be far more than expected. Additionally the Iraq economy has collapsed since the war makes the figures, I would suggest an unreliable comparison. A truer comparison would be the figures at the time of the war." OK but now it sounds like your saying "some people once thought we could make a net profit from war" rather than "we actually did make a net profit from it". | |||
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"Apologies if I am duplicating but I haven't read the whole Thread. But in the late 1290s the Islamic Ottoman Empire defeated the Christian Byzantine Empire that had kept everything under control from about 330AD. So some 30 years short of 1,000 years. The Ottoman Empire was defeated by us in WWI after some 600 years. We then carved out different countries according to old tribes and customs. Palestine was put under British Mandate from 1916 (and called the Palestinian Protectorate) where all religions were practised up to the events of 1947 so some 30 years. Since the Yanks created Israel in 1948 by use of Stern Gang terrorists and flooded Palestine with hundreds of thousands of European immigrants we have had increasing violence, wars and extremist terrorism. Like for some 68 years. So I guess the answer is no it was the Byzantyne Empire that kept the peace in that area the longest." Very informative .....thank you  | |||
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"Apologies if I am duplicating but I haven't read the whole Thread. But in the late 1290s the Islamic Ottoman Empire defeated the Christian Byzantine Empire that had kept everything under control from about 330AD. So some 30 years short of 1,000 years. The Ottoman Empire was defeated by us in WWI after some 600 years. We then carved out different countries according to old tribes and customs. Palestine was put under British Mandate from 1916 (and called the Palestinian Protectorate) where all religions were practised up to the events of 1947 so some 30 years. Since the Yanks created Israel in 1948 by use of Stern Gang terrorists and flooded Palestine with hundreds of thousands of European immigrants we have had increasing violence, wars and extremist terrorism. Like for some 68 years. So I guess the answer is no it was the Byzantyne Empire that kept the peace in that area the longest. Very informative .....thank you "Sort of, the byzantine empire didn't go as deep into the middle east as the ottoman empire. It did last considerably longer though. | |||
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"Think I need to start reading up on this .....getting bored with mills and boon now ...." I found it interesting reading about how Islam developed. It's a good proxy for understanding the region. Basically, the unity of belief lasts all of three successions before ethnic and tribal politics rip it in every direction. Compare that to say Christian unity of belief which you could argue lasted 1,054 years. | |||
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"Think I need to start reading up on this .....getting bored with mills and boon now .... I found it interesting reading about how Islam developed. It's a good proxy for understanding the region. Basically, the unity of belief lasts all of three successions before ethnic and tribal politics rip it in every direction. Compare that to say Christian unity of belief which you could argue lasted 1,054 years. " I'm actually being serious ...I don't know nearly enough about the regions history so with all that's happening there now at least i could understand a little more | |||
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"I was thinking more along the line of Islam will have worldwide peace as soon as they have killed everyone who disagrees with them, so enjoy your freedom as long as you can !" Why do you say they want to kill everyone else? Oh wait .... you have been reading Trump the Chumps broadcasts? If you want to condemn a worldwide religion that has its roots with Abraham alongside Judaism, shared the same belief in one God as the Jewish religion, whose profit Mohammed spoke more of Jesus than of anyone else when he wrote the Qu'ran, a book Muslims believe was dictated by the Angel Gabriel, 600 years after Christianity was founded and 300 years after the Byzantines we spoke of earlier on some random words spoken by extremists then fine I guess. But you really should put some substance up to support your statements. Unless you believe, like Trump, that all Muslims are terrorists. But then we get back to who started all the terrorism in Palestine in the first place ...... | |||
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" Sort of, the byzantine empire didn't go as deep into the middle east as the ottoman empire. It did last considerably longer though. " Well possibly but they both varied depending on the date. But generally yes the Ottoman reached deep into what is now Iraq for example. But the Byzantyne did cover the whole of the Balkans, Italy, Southern France, Spain and into Morocco and Algeria (as we call all of those now). Without wishing to get political it makes Israel's claim that it is the Jewish homeland a bit weak to say the least. Hundreds of years of Greek and Roman Idolatry, then centuries of Christian supremacy, followed by centuries of Islamic supremacy and then a few decades of multiple religions..... | |||
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" Sort of, the byzantine empire didn't go as deep into the middle east as the ottoman empire. It did last considerably longer though. Well possibly but they both varied depending on the date. But generally yes the Ottoman reached deep into what is now Iraq for example. But the Byzantyne did cover the whole of the Balkans, Italy, Southern France, Spain and into Morocco and Algeria (as we call all of those now). Without wishing to get political it makes Israel's claim that it is the Jewish homeland a bit weak to say the least. Hundreds of years of Greek and Roman Idolatry, then centuries of Christian supremacy, followed by centuries of Islamic supremacy and then a few decades of multiple religions....." Yes and if these things were decided on logic then Israel would be somewhere in europe... east of France, West of Poland and north of Italy if you catch my drift. But politics isn't about logic. | |||
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"Istanbul is Constantinople....." Now it's Turkish delight on a moonlit night..... | |||
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