FabSwingers.com forum: The British

By *G Couple OP Couple
over a year ago

Newton Stewart

Are we as a nation becoming so indolent and lacking in ambition that we are dependent upon others for almost everything?

The British motor industry which arguably led the world is now almost wholly foreign owned. Our aviation industry has gone the same way. Similarly ship-building and other heavy industries. We no longer produce our own coal or steel. Necessary utility companies are foreign owned. Most of our Premier League football clubs are foreign owned, even many of the players and managers are foreign. Very un-British sounding names are also becoming ever more apparent as the heads of large British corporations.

Why is this trend so strong? Is it education, bias, low ambition on our part or what? I am old enough to remember when British expertise was regarded as a valuable commodity. Now it seems we deem it preferable to look overseas whenever we need to recruit 'good workers' or 'top management'.

No doubt some will point to Brits heading foreign corporations, but even then what is propelling our best talent to leave us when clearly there must be great opportunities here if we have to keep importing skilled people.

Whenever immigration is debated the NHS is invariably hailed as an example of the necessity for immigration. We are forcefully told the NHS, amongst others, would collapse without immigration. I really do have trouble understanding just why.

Why is it that we, with all our supposed economic and educational advantages, cannot produce enough doctors, nurses, radiographers, etc., for ourselves and yet other poorer countries can? Seemingly so many in fact, they can export their excess medical staff to the UK. If that is not the case then where is our morality robbing those countries of their own sorely needed skilled people? (I am sure the undoubtedly good people who do come here - regardless of their origins, colour or creed - are more motivated by self-betterment and pay than an altrusitic drive to come here to preserve our NHS)

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By *iamondjoeMan
over a year ago

Glastonbury

This thread is sooooo last century

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Unions got involved. People wanted more money for less/poorer work/products. It became unsustainable and collapsed.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Objection! - leading question your honour

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By *carlet_heavenWoman
over a year ago

somewhere in the sticks

I believe, what you're describing are just the symptoms of a much bigger problem. The answers lie in looking at an even bigger picture and then asking a different question…imho

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Call it conservative and labour Thatcher Blair Gordon

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Yoof of today expect it all on a plate with no effort.

Bring back hanging and the national service

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By *G Couple OP Couple
over a year ago

Newton Stewart

"I believe, what you're describing are just the symptoms of a much bigger problem. The answers lie in looking at an even bigger picture and then asking a different question…imho"

But what is the bigger problem and the different question to be asked? I'm sure I'm not the only one mystified why we have to keep importing people with skills we could teach our own unemployed or ambitious people.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Yoof of today expect it all on a plate with no effort.

Bring back hanging and the national service

In some cases I don't think you're tooar off the mark. We had a 19yr old start at our place the other week. He was late every day, constantly complained about 'having' to work shifts and was generally lazy and obnoxious. Turns out his parents refused to buy him a motorbike and told him to get a job and buy his own, it was his 12th job in the last year!!!

He quit last Wednesday.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I believe, what you're describing are just the symptoms of a much bigger problem. The answers lie in looking at an even bigger picture and then asking a different question…imho

There's no mystery as to why we have a huge skills gap. Labour wanted everyone to have a university education and suddenly there were degrees in aromatherapy and the real skills suddenly vanished so we had to import them from elsewhere.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

It's called globalisation.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"It's called globalisation. "
.

That's absolutely correct!

That was Vladimir Lenin's conclusion in 1917.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imperialism,_the_Highest_Stage_of_Capitalism

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By *ngel n tedCouple
over a year ago

maidstone

Maybe it's time to remove the "great" from great britain, it seems a bit pompous and over inflating. Perhaps just britain would suffice or possibly "mundane" britain or even "a little bit shit" britain.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Maybe it's time to remove the "great" from great britain, it seems a bit pompous and over inflating. Perhaps just britain would suffice or possibly "mundane" britain or even "a little bit shit" britain."
.

It's actually just there to include northern Ireland!

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

You are of course ignoring the major British holdings in all these forgiven countries though.

Every country can say the same.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

[Removed by poster at 20/12/15 17:33:13]

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Just getting my foreign butler to read OP message out to me

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By *ngel n tedCouple
over a year ago

maidstone

It's actually just there to include northern Ireland!

Yes, i knew that, doesn't change the pomposity though

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

It's actually just there to include northern Ireland!

Yes, i knew that, doesn't change the pomposity though"
.

Yeah no I meant the great don't mean great, it means greater as in.. The extra bit

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By *carlet_heavenWoman
over a year ago

somewhere in the sticks

"I believe, what you're describing are just the symptoms of a much bigger problem. The answers lie in looking at an even bigger picture and then asking a different question…imho

So, are you asking me to do your thinking for you?

Surely this is what your OP was complaining about?

I'm giving you the opportunity to work it out yourself. Its all been pondered on in the past, recent global events predicted, the future-predicted…the truth is out there!

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By *carlet_heavenWoman
over a year ago

somewhere in the sticks

I heart this

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I believe, what you're describing are just the symptoms of a much bigger problem. The answers lie in looking at an even bigger picture and then asking a different question…imho

Well said

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By *ouple in LancashireCouple
over a year ago

in Lancashire

Well Op its a complex issue and blaming it on one particular bunch or workers or indeed one party is a bit naive and doesn't allow a full discussion but that's how some will respond..

yes in the 70's we had some fruit bat union leaders who had too much power in some industries but we have also had a lack of investment in technology, forward thinking policies and to some extent a mindset of 'British is best' when clearly other countries were doing things better and more cost productive..

Global economy..

as for the NHS we do produce world leading people in various medical fields but when they can attract more salary etc they will go elsewhere and then we plunder other less off countries for their medical staff..

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Don't worry, - 'Great Britain' is derived from 'Greater Brittany' , so it's not as delusional as it may seem.

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By *inky-MinxWoman
over a year ago

Grantham

"Unions got involved. People wanted more money for less/poorer work/products. It became unsustainable and collapsed."

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By *inky-MinxWoman
over a year ago

Grantham

"There's no mystery as to why we have a huge skills gap. Labour wanted everyone to have a university education and suddenly there were degrees in aromatherapy and the real skills suddenly vanished so we had to import them from elsewhere."

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Yes all this doom and gloom and still the second strongest economy in europe - go figure.

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By *awnmistMan
over a year ago

Wrexham

There's no meaningful sense (apart perhaps from the union jack flag) in which there is a British nation,as also there is no Soviet nation either -- there are however English and russian nations. However for many historical reasons the English have been unable to develop a viable form of civic nationalism. English flags fly comparitively much less often for example than do Scottish, Welsh or Irish flage. And as for a northern Irish flag well that's a subject for a monty python sketch.We talk of needing to "assimilate" other ethnic groups but exactly what is there for them to become assimilated into -- using coloured crayons to colour in blank outlines of our union jack is a joke compared to learning to play a tin-whistle or fiddle, or learning to speak welsh,for example. And this only touches on a much more complex set of issues. Folk do not know what it means to be English in the modern world as Britain ( Good=English, Bad=British, english literature not british literature and british army not english army)-- britain has lost an empire and is yet to find a real role in the modern world -- apart from arse licking to Americans, Royal Families and famous celebrities! Just my personal view is all? It is actually connected with our developmental priority (ie english scientists and inventors got there first in order to "develop" and as a reuult English society never underwent the major transformations that all other nations did as their development was forced upon them as they were "forced" to develop in response to ours.) So we never penned a constitution and as a result our political system is 300yrs behind the times compared to othere, We never had a french revolution, or american civil war, we didnt get flattened in 1945 and need to rebuild. Our system has seen no real change since 1066 when Harold lost his eye! Read Tom Nairn "The Break up of Britain" -- i recommend it honestly good read!!

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By *ophieslutTV/TS
over a year ago

Central

We've 'progressed' from small localised businesses, to more globalised corporations, so senior management are brought from anywhere to work and lead them - international management is not a sign that the UK is lacking.

Likewise we are probably towards the front of those nations who have decreased manufacturing etc - you'll hear the same in the USA.

Globalisation influences outsourcing of labour to the lowest cost base. Until all people are equally wealthy and countries have equal costs, it will be the same - so expect always.

Our leaders often encourage a race to the bottom, rather than investment and development, taking us towards the top.

I am dismayed that so many here value education below the level that other nationalities do though.

We're becoming more of a 'me too' nation, rather than leading. And most leaders we've had have not been inspirational to the majority.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Wait till £10 per hour 'living wage 'kicks in, it'll be like logans run, hit 25 and your a gonner

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"So we never penned a constitution and as a result our political system is 300yrs behind the times compared to othere "

Sorry but I really don't see us a 300 years behind! Actually the British voters are one of the things that are best about this country in my opinion. They never turned to idiotic extreme solutions (Germany, Japan, Italy), we have free speech and healthy debate (there goes the Middle East and Africa), we don't need to murder everyone who disagrees with us (French revolution) and we don't have Donald Trump! If that's 300 years behind then send me back to the stone age.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Are we going to have the Usual Labour vs Tory conflict or something more constructive, - after all, all of the political parties have to bare a portion of the blame.

as was said previously, 'Britain makes the best cars in the world' was was prevalent throughout the media in the 70's, & some whom bought Japanese cars because they were cheaper & better 'still' believed the bs!

I believe that far too much of the cream was - & probably still is - was taken by the top 5-10% of the rich list but wasn't reinvested back into industry, thus being flooded with cheaper coal, cars, steel etc.....

Just my opinion but I don't see Britain as a proper democracy, - we're still semi-stuck in this ancient abhorrent class system that just doesn't inspire the masses to ultra achieve because deep down people must surely know that unlike some other countries, no matter how rich the country becomes or how fast the economy grows (like in recent years), the cream will always be skimmed off by the 'elite', leaving the rest, especially the lower classes, to struggle instead of improving their lifestyles.

The carrot just isn't there!

Just my opinion, OP - don't shoot me!

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I actually agree with what you said but don't see it as an issue with democracy / politics. It's actually cultural I'm afraid and for that, I'm lookin' at the man in the mirror.

What I mean is that in most large British organisations, there is a class system that is semi-meritocratic at best. "Playing the game" / 'political skills' are widely recognised as necessary and starting your own business is always seen as 'risky'. Those are cultural things that we all choose through tiny decisions we make every day. Most people dislike it but defend it to the maximum whenever someone tries to change it.

If my description is correct then it's not someone politicians can or will ever fix.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

We're just too big headed, and lazy, this country has no ambition, no focus, and very little to offer the world, the world we blame for all our troubles. Can't get a job? Blame immigrants, can't get seen at the hospital, blame the immigrants can't get a council house, blame the immigrant,

I have seen friends complaining about immigration because he can't afford two foreign holidays next year, I'd like to drop him in parts of the states where you have single mothers working 3 part time jobs just to pay for food lighting and medical bills.

We're too soft, we have become soft over the years because we see welfare as a career option, not a safety net, if you want to see less polish people here (which I don't, I like the polish) get the lazy arse Brits to do a days work, if the British people filled the British jobs, there wouldn't be room for forigen workers, fact is the only thing this country manufactures these days are excuses,

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Yoof of today expect it all on a plate with no effort.

Bring back hanging and the national service

He quit last Wednesday."

Equally there are some extremely hard working young people.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Are you Maggie Thatcher?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Yoof of today expect it all on a plate with no effort.

Bring back hanging and the national service

He quit last Wednesday.

Equally there are some extremely hard working young people.

I think it's easy to forget how much of social behaviour is learned rather than intuitive or naturally occurring. Look some 19 year old are just little shits but some of them need someone to actually sit down and explain to them how their behaviour comes across to others. It's seems obvious to us but some of them will change their ways once they realise. Just think, if their patents didn't explain it to them and they don't have the frames of references to figure it out, how else will they 'get it'?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"We're just too big headed, and lazy, this country has no ambition, no focus, and very little to offer the world, the world we blame for all our troubles. Can't get a job? Blame immigrants, can't get seen at the hospital, blame the immigrants can't get a council house, blame the immigrant,

Yawn

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Yawn "

Care to elaborate on why you find my opinion boring?

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By *ohnaronMan
over a year ago

london

"I believe, what you're describing are just the symptoms of a much bigger problem. The answers lie in looking at an even bigger picture and then asking a different question…imho

Corbyn has a subtle plan: bankrupt the country then all the foreign investors and migrants will leave.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Yawn

Care to elaborate on why you find my opinion boring?"

Because it's the same old Daily Fail welfare schtick that we always hear.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Yoof of today expect it all on a plate with no effort.

Bring back hanging and the national service

He quit last Wednesday.

Equally there are some extremely hard working young people.

Of course there are that's why I said "in some cases".

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Yawn

Care to elaborate on why you find my opinion boring?

Because it's the same old Daily Fail welfare schtick that we always hear."

Oh is it, tell me, when was the last time the daily mail took the view that we shouldn't blame immigration for our own failings? Or did you just not bother to read the whole post ?

Any way, answering with the word yawn, that sounds a bit lazy to me, so I thank you for compleatly validating my argument

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Yoof of today expect it all on a plate with no effort.

Bring back hanging and the national service

He quit last Wednesday.

Equally there are some extremely hard working young people.

Of course there are that's why I said "in some cases"."

The problem is that no one ever says so, which I find a real shame.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Yawn

Care to elaborate on why you find my opinion boring?

Because it's the same old Daily Fail welfare schtick that we always hear.

Oh is it, tell me, when was the last time the daily mail took the view that we shouldn't blame immigration for our own failings? Or did you just not bother to read the whole post ?

Any way, answering with the word yawn, that sounds a bit lazy to me, so I thank you for compleatly validating my argument"

Ah, you mean your carefully constructed introduction, to throw people off the scent of your real argument, which was? Welfare!

I replied with a yawn because I thought that was all it deserved, not because I'm lazy.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Yawn

Care to elaborate on why you find my opinion boring?

Because it's the same old Daily Fail welfare schtick that we always hear.

Oh is it, tell me, when was the last time the daily mail took the view that we shouldn't blame immigration for our own failings? Or did you just not bother to read the whole post ?

Any way, answering with the word yawn, that sounds a bit lazy to me, so I thank you for compleatly validating my argument

Ah, you mean your carefully constructed introduction, to throw people off the scent of your real argument, which was? Welfare!

I replied with a yawn because I thought that was all it deserved, not because I'm lazy.

"
ok, if that helps you save face, because you jumped to a conclusion then fine, we can go with that, I think you have proved that you can answer someone with more than two syllables, well done you.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Yawn

Care to elaborate on why you find my opinion boring?

Because it's the same old Daily Fail welfare schtick that we always hear.

Oh is it, tell me, when was the last time the daily mail took the view that we shouldn't blame immigration for our own failings? Or did you just not bother to read the whole post ?

Any way, answering with the word yawn, that sounds a bit lazy to me, so I thank you for compleatly validating my argument

Ah, you mean your carefully constructed introduction, to throw people off the scent of your real argument, which was? Welfare!

I replied with a yawn because I thought that was all it deserved, not because I'm lazy.

ok, if that helps you save face, because you jumped to a conclusion then fine, we can go with that, I think you have proved that you can answer someone with more than two syllables, well done you."

I don't think it's actually me who needs to save face, but I have come to a conclusion, and that's why I wont be replying to any more of your posts.

Have a nice evening.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

It would appear that were all looking for reasons of failure with our own particular dogma!.

I don't think we've failed, I just think we've changed!

Sure we rely way to heavily on certain aspects of our economy and that leads to weakness in other areas, but in reality the evolution from workhouse to management to broker was never going to be easy as each requires its own particulars of infrastructure and education.

Sooner or later the whole world will have to evolve from a c02 based economy to another probably radically different one, I think as the chap said above, at least we've managed the last transformation without ridiculous civil war.

Let's just hope we can export that to the rest of the world, as it's sure gonna need it!.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Yawn

Care to elaborate on why you find my opinion boring?

Because it's the same old Daily Fail welfare schtick that we always hear.

Oh is it, tell me, when was the last time the daily mail took the view that we shouldn't blame immigration for our own failings? Or did you just not bother to read the whole post ?

Any way, answering with the word yawn, that sounds a bit lazy to me, so I thank you for compleatly validating my argument

Ah, you mean your carefully constructed introduction, to throw people off the scent of your real argument, which was? Welfare!

I replied with a yawn because I thought that was all it deserved, not because I'm lazy.

ok, if that helps you save face, because you jumped to a conclusion then fine, we can go with that, I think you have proved that you can answer someone with more than two syllables, well done you.

I don't think it's actually me who needs to save face, but I have come to a conclusion, and that's why I wont be replying to any more of your posts.

Have a nice evening."

And to you, and a merry Christmas

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

We don't actually have much control over what goes on in the economy. So don't blame me for lack of ambition, i know i won't reap the rewards of hard work coz it never happened yet. I'm educated by experience.

Human resources is a good documentary that might give you your answer. Industry, and the people involved in it, were made obsolete.

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By *inky-MinxWoman
over a year ago

Grantham

"Sorry but I really don't see us a 300 years behind! Actually the British voters are one of the things that are best about this country in my opinion. They never turned to idiotic extreme solutions (Germany, Japan, Italy), we have free speech and healthy debate (there goes the Middle East and Africa), we don't need to murder everyone who disagrees with us (French revolution) and we don't have Donald Trump! If that's 300 years behind then send me back to the stone age. "

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By *inky-MinxWoman
over a year ago

Grantham

Speak for yourself. I'm not unemployed or a lazy arse

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"We don't actually have much control over what goes on in the economy. So don't blame me for lack of ambition, i know i won't reap the rewards of hard work coz it never happened yet. I'm educated by experience.

Human resources is a good documentary that might give you your answer. Industry, and the people involved in it, were made obsolete."

There are few countries in the world where it's easier to start your own business. If you do that then you reap the rewards of hard work.

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By *inky-MinxWoman
over a year ago

Grantham

"Just my opinion but I don't see Britain as a proper democracy"

Democracy is a myth, it can never be 'proper'.

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By *inky-MinxWoman
over a year ago

Grantham

"There are few countries in the world where it's easier to start your own business. If you do that then you reap the rewards of hard work. "

Exactly

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Human resources is a good documentary that might give you your answer. Industry, and the people involved in it, were made obsolete.

There are few countries in the world where it's easier to start your own business. If you do that then you reap the rewards of hard work. "

So all the 13 million poor of the UK have to do is set up their own business? Cool.

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By *oo hotCouple
over a year ago

North West

"Are we as a nation becoming so indolent and lacking in ambition that we are dependent upon others for almost everything?

Britain is a country of great wealth and opportunity, this is the reason why we attract so many migrants. You are focusing on perceived negatives that came about through globalisation. We don't dig out coal or make steel anymore because others do it much cheaper.

Unionisation in the 1970's killed off British shipping and therefore shipping companies moved offshore or to the Far East.

We do train highly qualified Doctors, Nurses and Teachers but many choose to work abroad in a lower tax jurisdictions and hence we import NHS workers from elsewhere.

You are very much taking a glass half empty view and the country would be in a lot worse position had we forcibly held on to industries that were inefficient, wasteful and uncompetitive in the worlds marketplace.

Britain is still great, or you can choose to take a negative viewpoint if you are wanting to direct the argument against immigrants or a political position. Overall, successive middle of the road governments have steered the UK along a path of moderation in all things and this is why we, as a country remain the envy of the world for many, many things in life.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Human resources is a good documentary that might give you your answer. Industry, and the people involved in it, were made obsolete.

There are few countries in the world where it's easier to start your own business. If you do that then you reap the rewards of hard work.

So all the 13 million poor of the UK have to do is set up their own business? Cool."

Irrelevant to my point but carry on with excuses if they make you feel better.

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By *oo hotCouple
over a year ago

North West

Human resources is a good documentary that might give you your answer. Industry, and the people involved in it, were made obsolete.

There are few countries in the world where it's easier to start your own business. If you do that then you reap the rewards of hard work.

So all the 13 million poor of the UK have to do is set up their own business? Cool."

It has been on the cards for years and many economists and journalists have said that the poorly educated are going to have a pretty shitty outlook from the turn of the millennium. The reason is that mass employment in manufacturing industry has gone from these shores and is never going to return.

People are going to have to accept that if they want better job prospects and security they are going to need to get better skills, go self employed or just do their jobs better and more efficiently than those around them. It might not be fair, but this is how it has become.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Human resources is a good documentary that might give you your answer. Industry, and the people involved in it, were made obsolete.

There are few countries in the world where it's easier to start your own business. If you do that then you reap the rewards of hard work.

So all the 13 million poor of the UK have to do is set up their own business? Cool.

Irrelevant to my point but carry on with excuses if they make you feel better. "

So it's not possible for everyone to reap the rewards of hard work then?

I stand by my initial words, hard work does not mean rewards for everyone, and experience teaches most people this.

With the economy run the way it is now it's not possible for everyone be rewarded either. There's no fairness or equality in wages yet.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Human resources is a good documentary that might give you your answer. Industry, and the people involved in it, were made obsolete.

There are few countries in the world where it's easier to start your own business. If you do that then you reap the rewards of hard work.

So all the 13 million poor of the UK have to do is set up their own business? Cool.

Nothing to do with education, there isn't any fair system that says stop being a greedy exploitative employer, goods provider, or service provider.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Are we as a nation becoming so indolent and lacking in ambition that we are dependent upon others for almost everything?

"
it all is rather depressing but ultimately to late to do anything about, I mean Rolls Royce, Jaguar and Mini all German nooooooo

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Human resources is a good documentary that might give you your answer. Industry, and the people involved in it, were made obsolete.

There are few countries in the world where it's easier to start your own business. If you do that then you reap the rewards of hard work.

So all the 13 million poor of the UK have to do is set up their own business? Cool.

Irrelevant to my point but carry on with excuses if they make you feel better.

So it's not possible for everyone to reap the rewards of hard work then?

I stand by my initial words, hard work does not mean rewards for everyone, and experience teaches most people this.

With the economy run the way it is now it's not possible for everyone be rewarded either. There's no fairness or equality in wages yet."

If you run your own business it's pretty much a contradiction in terms to say you don't reap the rewards of your hard work. Whether it makes you rich is a seperate issue but at least you won't complain about having an exploitative boss.

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By *oo hotCouple
over a year ago

North West

Human resources is a good documentary that might give you your answer. Industry, and the people involved in it, were made obsolete.

There are few countries in the world where it's easier to start your own business. If you do that then you reap the rewards of hard work.

So all the 13 million poor of the UK have to do is set up their own business? Cool.

Nothing to do with education, there isn't any fair system that says stop being a greedy exploitative employer, goods provider, or service provider."

No employer in the world sets out in business as a charitable endeavour. A business exits to make maximum profits and as a means of achieving this they need to employ people. When you realise that someone has to create a business in order to create employment you might realise that they, the employer holds the best cards. He who pays the Piper call the tune.

That said, employers rarely want to lose their most productive staff which brings us back to making yourself better.

You are looking at this from an extremely negative perception and a defeatist attitude from the outset. Everyone can do something and if they can do something, they can learn to do it better.

This country has very good employee protection laws compared to many other countries around the world and this is another reason why we attract so many immigrants - because we have job potential and security available to workers.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Human resources is a good documentary that might give you your answer. Industry, and the people involved in it, were made obsolete.

There are few countries in the world where it's easier to start your own business. If you do that then you reap the rewards of hard work.

So all the 13 million poor of the UK have to do is set up their own business? Cool.

Irrelevant to my point but carry on with excuses if they make you feel better.

So it's not possible for everyone to reap the rewards of hard work then?

I stand by my initial words, hard work does not mean rewards for everyone, and experience teaches most people this.

With the economy run the way it is now it's not possible for everyone be rewarded either. There's no fairness or equality in wages yet.

Most people don't care to be rich, so i'm not alluding to that, just enough to live off (and some extra for a holiday coz everyone deserves one of those). Your point works for some people to have enough to live off, but it's not possible for everyone to start their own business so that won't make people ambitious. Same for trying to be promoted, how is everyone supposed to be promoted to the highest positions and best wages? Not gonna happen for most people.

I don't have a boss, so personally i'm not complaining about being exploited here, but i know the economy works off exploitation. Some exploitation can be good, some of it bad, depends on your ethical values. But i do know this economy does not work for everyone, and neither does hard work.

I actually don't even care what works for this economy we have now because i don't believe in being a part of it. I believe in global unionisation. People around the world supporting each other and improving lives for everyone. My ethics are if one person is entitled to something then so is everyone else, and finances, status, anything else should not come into who gets what entitlements.

It's why we have an NHS and tax credits, i believe in those for now but obviously the ultimate economy would be one where nobody goes without for lack of money and this is what we should be working towards, a fair, unexploititive economy that works for everyone participating.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Human resources is a good documentary that might give you your answer. Industry, and the people involved in it, were made obsolete.

There are few countries in the world where it's easier to start your own business. If you do that then you reap the rewards of hard work.

So all the 13 million poor of the UK have to do is set up their own business? Cool.

Irrelevant to my point but carry on with excuses if they make you feel better.

So it's not possible for everyone to reap the rewards of hard work then?

I stand by my initial words, hard work does not mean rewards for everyone, and experience teaches most people this.

With the economy run the way it is now it's not possible for everyone be rewarded either. There's no fairness or equality in wages yet.

Workers of the world - UNITE!!!

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"No employer in the world sets out in business as a charitable endeavour. A business exits to make maximum profits and as a means of achieving this they need to employ people. When you realise that someone has to create a business in order to create employment you might realise that they, the employer holds the best cards. He who pays the Piper call the tune.

That said, employers rarely want to lose their most productive staff which brings us back to making yourself better.

You are looking at this from an extremely negative perception and a defeatist attitude from the outset. Everyone can do something and if they can do something, they can learn to do it better.

That's my whole point. Businesses are not charities of course they aren't but they're based on exploitation. I don't even know why we have a World Trade Centre because most business is not trade, trade implies to me fairness for all parties involved.

All people have to give is their time, some peoples time seems to have more value than others though.

You can give me all the bullshit about ownership though, that's a part of the problem too.

Nobody need to create a business ok? There are people without skills needing other peoples skills, and these skilled people don't need to be owned by someone else just coz that person has the money to own them and hire them out for profit.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

The last 30 years has been an expansion into globalisation for everyone, it's not just us.

China builds things for a western market!!!

There relying on globalisation, they wouldn't have a market without it.

Market market market...

There's your employer.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Human resources is a good documentary that might give you your answer. Industry, and the people involved in it, were made obsolete.

There are few countries in the world where it's easier to start your own business. If you do that then you reap the rewards of hard work.

So all the 13 million poor of the UK have to do is set up their own business? Cool.

Irrelevant to my point but carry on with excuses if they make you feel better.

So it's not possible for everyone to reap the rewards of hard work then?

I stand by my initial words, hard work does not mean rewards for everyone, and experience teaches most people this.

With the economy run the way it is now it's not possible for everyone be rewarded either. There's no fairness or equality in wages yet.

Workers of the world - UNITE!!! "

I'm a dreamer sadly. But i know people aren't gonna improve their own lot by making others lots worse...it just drags us all down and gives us less value eventually.

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By *oo hotCouple
over a year ago

North West

Human resources is a good documentary that might give you your answer. Industry, and the people involved in it, were made obsolete.

There are few countries in the world where it's easier to start your own business. If you do that then you reap the rewards of hard work.

So all the 13 million poor of the UK have to do is set up their own business? Cool.

Irrelevant to my point but carry on with excuses if they make you feel better.

So it's not possible for everyone to reap the rewards of hard work then?

I stand by my initial words, hard work does not mean rewards for everyone, and experience teaches most people this.

With the economy run the way it is now it's not possible for everyone be rewarded either. There's no fairness or equality in wages yet.

Fantasy unfortunately. You live in a wealthy society that has become fat with complacency. Many in the rest of the wold remain lean, hungry and competitive and would trample your well meaning ideology in a heartbeat.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Human resources is a good documentary that might give you your answer. Industry, and the people involved in it, were made obsolete.

There are few countries in the world where it's easier to start your own business. If you do that then you reap the rewards of hard work.

So all the 13 million poor of the UK have to do is set up their own business? Cool.

Irrelevant to my point but carry on with excuses if they make you feel better.

So it's not possible for everyone to reap the rewards of hard work then?

I stand by my initial words, hard work does not mean rewards for everyone, and experience teaches most people this.

With the economy run the way it is now it's not possible for everyone be rewarded either. There's no fairness or equality in wages yet.

It's called cutting out the middle man, and nothing more than that. Don't see why other people are allowed to profit off of someone elses hard work tbh.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Regulate and get out of the way, that should be governments only roll!.

The market creates employment and employment creates the market.

Business gets big, fails, goes bust and up pops the new one, like life it has a beginning and an end!

This modern day notion of saving every failed business has got us in the shit were in today. It appears we've let the tail wag the dog!

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By *inky-MinxWoman
over a year ago

Grantham

"So all the 13 million poor of the UK have to do is set up their own business? Cool."

Poor? Have you seen actually poor people? People with no shelter, no food etc?

In this country too many people think they are poor because they only have an iPhone 5 and not a 6.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Human resources is a good documentary that might give you your answer. Industry, and the people involved in it, were made obsolete.

There are few countries in the world where it's easier to start your own business. If you do that then you reap the rewards of hard work.

So all the 13 million poor of the UK have to do is set up their own business? Cool.

Irrelevant to my point but carry on with excuses if they make you feel better.

So it's not possible for everyone to reap the rewards of hard work then?

I stand by my initial words, hard work does not mean rewards for everyone, and experience teaches most people this.

With the economy run the way it is now it's not possible for everyone be rewarded either. There's no fairness or equality in wages yet.

It's called cutting out the middle man, and nothing more than that. Don't see why other people are allowed to profit off of someone elses hard work tbh."

Because we've tried the alternatives that you fantasise about and believe me, it wouldn't work out better for you

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By *inky-MinxWoman
over a year ago

Grantham

"Regulate and get out of the way, that should be governments only roll!.

The market creates employment and employment creates the market.

Business gets big, fails, goes bust and up pops the new one, like life it has a beginning and an end!

This modern day notion of saving every failed business has got us in the shit were in today. It appears we've let the tail wag the dog!"

I agree, all this hating people who make money (who then employ people who can spend more money) is self defeating I think.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"So all the 13 million poor of the UK have to do is set up their own business? Cool.

Poor? Have you seen actually poor people? People with no shelter, no food etc?

In this country too many people think they are poor because they only have an iPhone 5 and not a 6."

There's homeless people living on the streets of my town right now, yeah i see them. Don't know if they've got food but they definitely haven't got anywhere to live.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

This modern day notion of saving every failed business has got us in the shit were in today. It appears we've let the tail wag the dog!"

Too right, the economic necessity of bailing out RBS is completely lost on me.

We don't need no water, let the motherfucka burn...

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By *otlovefun42Couple
over a year ago

Costa Blanca Spain...

"Are we as a nation becoming so indolent and lacking in ambition that we are dependent upon others for almost everything?

Before Socialism Great Britain.

After Socialism completely fucked.

Conclusion. Completely fucked by socialism.

I could go into more detail but as I'm sat in my mothers kitchen just checking my messages it will have to wait.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"So all the 13 million poor of the UK have to do is set up their own business? Cool.

Poor? Have you seen actually poor people? People with no shelter, no food etc?

In this country too many people think they are poor because they only have an iPhone 5 and not a 6."

....and too many believe that because people have got a satellite dish and a mobile phone, they are not poor.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Regulate and get out of the way, that should be governments only roll!.

The market creates employment and employment creates the market.

Business gets big, fails, goes bust and up pops the new one, like life it has a beginning and an end!

This modern day notion of saving every failed business has got us in the shit were in today. It appears we've let the tail wag the dog!

I agree, all this hating people who make money (who then employ people who can spend more money) is self defeating I think."

I don't agree with the system, i see it for what it is and what it does and how it doesn't work for many, many people. Since i've had enough money to live off i feel everyone should have that right coz life is hard without enough to live off. I don't see a problem with that personally, and i'm not hating on any people, i just don't agree with them that's all. And i definitely don't agree that what they do will work for everyone else, it's not even feasible that it would work.

I'm quite happy in my little fantasy world where i believe everyone has te right to equal rights and to be treated fairly.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"So all the 13 million poor of the UK have to do is set up their own business? Cool.

Poor? Have you seen actually poor people? People with no shelter, no food etc?

In this country too many people think they are poor because they only have an iPhone 5 and not a 6.

There's homeless people living on the streets of my town right now, yeah i see them. Don't know if they've got food but they definitely haven't got anywhere to live."

Are they drug and alcohol free? Have they ever been given a council house or did they get kicked out of it?

If you go to China, in the summer you'll see people sleep on the street out of choice, because they are so poor they'd rather save the money spent on a room so they can send more back to their family so they don't starve or better still, actually get to eat some meat once in a while. Then they go work a 90-hour week on a construction site.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I'm quite happy in my little fantasy world where i believe everyone has te right to equal rights and to be treated fairly.

OK well just try to avoid history books then as they might burst your fantasy bubble

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"So all the 13 million poor of the UK have to do is set up their own business? Cool.

Poor? Have you seen actually poor people? People with no shelter, no food etc?

In this country too many people think they are poor because they only have an iPhone 5 and not a 6.

There's homeless people living on the streets of my town right now, yeah i see them. Don't know if they've got food but they definitely haven't got anywhere to live.

Are they drug and alcohol free? Have they ever been given a council house or did they get kicked out of it?

We are far, far richer than China and have a parliamentary democracy. Should we not be aiming far higher than their standard?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"So all the 13 million poor of the UK have to do is set up their own business? Cool.

Poor? Have you seen actually poor people? People with no shelter, no food etc?

In this country too many people think they are poor because they only have an iPhone 5 and not a 6.

There's homeless people living on the streets of my town right now, yeah i see them. Don't know if they've got food but they definitely haven't got anywhere to live.

Are they drug and alcohol free? Have they ever been given a council house or did they get kicked out of it?

We are far, far richer than China and have a parliamentary democracy. Should we not be aiming far higher than their standard?

Well yeah that's my point! How many people in this country work a 90-hour week, is drug and alcohol free but are sleeping rough? That's an achievement we have!

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I'm quite happy in my little fantasy world where i believe everyone has the right to equal rights and to be treated fairly.

OK well just try to avoid history books then as they might burst your fantasy bubble "

History is the past, we should learn from it but not live there. I know a lot about social history, dunno if it's true or not but it does seem to repeat itself politically if it is true.

Also, i do know homelessness is a complicated issue (as is drug addiction) but i wouldn't even try to justify anyone being homeless, people living in sleeping bags on the pavement isn't something you can justify either, even if it does save money. People aren't money and they shouldn't be - that's been the whole point of what i've been saying in here.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

This modern day notion of saving every failed business has got us in the shit were in today. It appears we've let the tail wag the dog!

Too right, the economic necessity of bailing out RBS is completely lost on me.

We don't need no water, let the motherfucka burn... "
.

You say that as if rbs is saved!

Hoorah the messiah

It's a failed institution just like the coal board was.

Don't change your logic, we couldn't afford to keep the coal board running and guess what... Bailing out the banks won't save them!... Sure if we'd put trillions into the coal board in 1979 guess what in 1982 it may have looked a viable industry!! Look underneath at the balance sheet and that tells you it's not sustainable though!

rbs was doomed by its businesses failings and just the like the coal board will go pop sooner or later... No that's wrong we've put off the sooner! But it will go pop

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

This modern day notion of saving every failed business has got us in the shit were in today. It appears we've let the tail wag the dog!

Too right, the economic necessity of bailing out RBS is completely lost on me.

We don't need no water, let the motherfucka burn... .

You say that as if rbs is saved!

Hoorah the messiah

It's a failed institution just like the coal board was.

rbs was doomed by its businesses failings and just the like the coal board will go pop sooner or later... No that's wrong we've put off the sooner! But it will go pop"

Well next time it's on fire can we please refrain from pissing on it

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Are we as a nation becoming so indolent and lacking in ambition that we are dependent upon others for almost everything?

In a nutshell yes, laziness. Or maybe evolution dictated it? Either way we've lost the ability to appreciate the importance of a hard days graft. We are are service industry. Most people are afraid to get their hands dirty. I bet there's more people in middle management jobs that get paid for doing jack than there are unemployed. Don't get me started on all the divs at university studying for some toss course that they'll never get a job doing so end up owing twenty grand in fees, and paying it off by selling sofas.

I would

1,Bring back a 2 year compulsory national service - lets see how keen those people are to send in the troops when its their sons or daughters.

2,Reform the drug and alcohol laws and place the issues surrounding these in the hands of the nhs, not the criminal justice system.

3,Tax the rich more-greed and selfishness is a breeding ground for laziness.

Ever wondered why the Chinese are taking over the world. Humility. They are prepared to work for what they get. They spent 100 years being abused by americans while building their country. Soon they'll own it.

Anyhoo back to this country. Yes its wank. Working for shit money in a job you hate (not me though, I'm lucky) because it's the right thing to do when there are people out there at both ends of the spectrum taking the absolute piss.

So yeah, fuck that shit, live your life by a different set of rules, be different, take risks, lifes too short, don't conform. Don't get sucked in to the system although pretty much unavoidable to all but the extremely fucking minted, or tramps.

Anyroad I'm rambling now so I'm off to sober up

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Are we as a nation becoming so indolent and lacking in ambition that we are dependent upon others for almost everything?

Before Socialism Great Britain.

After Socialism completely fucked.

Conclusion. Completely fucked by socialism.

I could go into more detail but as I'm sat in my mothers kitchen just checking my messages it will have to wait.

"
.

The empire ended in 1900, socialism was the symptom of unregulated capitalism!

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By *inky-MinxWoman
over a year ago

Grantham

"There's homeless people living on the streets of my town right now, yeah i see them. Don't know if they've got food but they definitely haven't got anywhere to live."

There are all kinds of shelters and housing benefit. I've worked for the benefit system and no one in the country actually needs to sleep rough. There is help available.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

This modern day notion of saving every failed business has got us in the shit were in today. It appears we've let the tail wag the dog!

Too right, the economic necessity of bailing out RBS is completely lost on me.

We don't need no water, let the motherfucka burn... .

You say that as if rbs is saved!

Hoorah the messiah

It's a failed institution just like the coal board was.

rbs was doomed by its businesses failings and just the like the coal board will go pop sooner or later... No that's wrong we've put off the sooner! But it will go pop

Well next time it's on fire can we please refrain from pissing on it"
.

Exactly

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"There's homeless people living on the streets of my town right now, yeah i see them. Don't know if they've got food but they definitely haven't got anywhere to live.

There are all kinds of shelters and housing benefit. I've worked for the benefit system and no one in the country actually needs to sleep rough. There is help available."

It's failed some people then. There are people living on the pavements of my town right now, seen them myself asleep in their sleeping bags on the floor.

This is the first year i have ever seen people without tents sleeping rough here.

It's also possible they're working, idk. There's been a housing crisis here for decades as it is, now it's more obvious that's all.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Just like to point out that the winner of the apprentice got expelled from school at 15, learned a trade and... started his own business

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By *oo hotCouple
over a year ago

North West

"There's homeless people living on the streets of my town right now, yeah i see them. Don't know if they've got food but they definitely haven't got anywhere to live.

There are all kinds of shelters and housing benefit. I've worked for the benefit system and no one in the country actually needs to sleep rough. There is help available.

It's failed some people then. There are people living on the pavements of my town right now, seen them myself asleep in their sleeping bags on the floor.

This is the first year i have ever seen people without tents sleeping rough here.

It's also possible they're working, idk. There's been a housing crisis here for decades as it is, now it's more obvious that's all.

There are a lot more people sleeping on the streets generally and it appears to be an increasing trend, I will grant you that. Whether this is something that they really need to be doing I am not sure. It would surprise me very much if in 2015 the UK does not have the social resources to prevent anyone having to sleep on the street.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

We led the world in everything, from the areas you mentioned to engineering. I was told a story about a German company made a drill bit the width of a human hair, a company over here bored a hole through the center of it and sent it back. We can't do that anymore sadly.

Do you think it has something to do with wages and the cost of running a business over here compared to say India?

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By *tillup4funMan
over a year ago

Wakefield

"Well Op its a complex issue and blaming it on one particular bunch or workers or indeed one party is a bit naive and doesn't allow a full discussion but that's how some will respond..

Global economy..

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Do you think it has something to do with wages and the cost of running a business over here compared to say India?"

In a word, no.

The cost of business in the UK is comparable to Germany, USA, Singapore or Japan who all do well. Labour is generally declining as a proportion of manufacturing anyway.

Other countries have some significant overheads we don't have - the fact that infrastructure in India is crap, the Chinese legal system is risky and the American health care system is expensive for employers and employees alike.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"We led the world in everything, from the areas you mentioned to engineering. I was told a story about a German company made a drill bit the width of a human hair, a company over here bored a hole through the center of it and sent it back. We can't do that anymore sadly.

Do you think it has something to do with wages and the cost of running a business over here compared to say India?"

Why can't "we do that anymore"?

We still have some of the top engineering firms.

But that story is just a nice myth I've heard it with American company sending it to Germany,British company sending it to Japan, and now British and German.

Usually it's a wire not a drill bit though

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By *iamondjoeMan
over a year ago

Glastonbury

A song of patriotic predjudice - Flanders and Swann

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EdY1Y5XNJBY

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By *otlovefun42Couple
over a year ago

Costa Blanca Spain...

"Are we as a nation becoming so indolent and lacking in ambition that we are dependent upon others for almost everything?

Before Socialism Great Britain.

After Socialism completely fucked.

Conclusion. Completely fucked by socialism.

I could go into more detail but as I'm sat in my mothers kitchen just checking my messages it will have to wait.

The empire ended in 1900, socialism was the symptom of unregulated capitalism!"

"The empire ended in 1900"

Someone must have forgotten to tell India (independence 1947) most of Africa (1968) Rhodesia (1980) and Hong Kong (1997) among many others.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Are we as a nation becoming so indolent and lacking in ambition that we are dependent upon others for almost everything?

Before Socialism Great Britain.

After Socialism completely fucked.

Conclusion. Completely fucked by socialism.

I could go into more detail but as I'm sat in my mothers kitchen just checking my messages it will have to wait.

The empire ended in 1900, socialism was the symptom of unregulated capitalism!

"The empire ended in 1900"

Someone must have forgotten to tell India (independence 1947) most of Africa (1968) Rhodesia (1980) and Hong Kong (1997) among many others."

The "unregulated capitalism" of the empire meant that Hong Kong was 5.6x wealthier than socialist China when we left it. Given the ethnicity, language, culture and weather of Hong Kong is identical to Shenzhen. I wonder what accounts for such a difference? Maybe it's the same reason South Korea is rich as fuck and North Korea is poor as fuck...

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Are we as a nation becoming so indolent and lacking in ambition that we are dependent upon others for almost everything?

Before Socialism Great Britain.

After Socialism completely fucked.

Conclusion. Completely fucked by socialism.

I could go into more detail but as I'm sat in my mothers kitchen just checking my messages it will have to wait.

The empire ended in 1900, socialism was the symptom of unregulated capitalism!

"The empire ended in 1900"

Someone must have forgotten to tell India (independence 1947) most of Africa (1968) Rhodesia (1980) and Hong Kong (1997) among many others.

I think you've confused socialism and communist China and communist north Korea, it's easily done in most peoples minds but it's a bit like saying the conservatives are the same as the tea party or that fascists are capitalists!.

In historical context the British empire was past it's peak by 1900, the Germans had overtaken are ingenuity in progress and technology, the empire had stood on its past glories of the 19th century, by 1880 the Germans were pioneers in the new "chemical" technology and by 1900 were well ahead of the British, you'll notice that most of the petroleum industry was dominated by Germans and German technology, in fact one of the big threats leading upto ww1 was the German fleet had completely refitted to diesels while the British were still using coal!.

The consequence of socialism was a direct result of unfettered capitalism.... Millions died early deaths in early capitalism and with any democratic country as you'd expect, eventually the average Joe who'd profited from the unregulated capitalism thought... Yeah I've got a wage but I've also got x disease, y environmental disaster..

It's no different than what you see in Beijing today, if you take a look you'll notice there's huge protests about air quality!.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

It's no different than what you see in Beijing today, if you take a look you'll notice there's huge protests about air quality!."

I definately do confuse socialism and communism. What is socialism, is it like diet-communism? Wasn't Hitler a socilaist - or did he just mis-spell his own party name? Saddam Hussein definately was.

I think it's a deliberately ambiguous term designed to conceal the fact that countries that go past the centre left aren't economically successful.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

It's no different than what you see in Beijing today, if you take a look you'll notice there's huge protests about air quality!.

I definately do confuse socialism and communism. What is socialism, is it like diet-communism? Wasn't Hitler a socilaist - or did he just mis-spell his own party name? Saddam Hussein definately was.

I think it's a deliberately ambiguous term designed to conceal the fact that countries that go past the centre left aren't economically successful. "
.

Well socialism is about the improvement of a society through political ideology, the main thing about most socialist parties is they belive in the ownership of production being in the hands of the society, albeit in most cases the ownership through democratic means!.

On that basis neither Saddam Hussein nor Adolf Hitler nor Mao nor Stalin would have qualified as socialists because although they took the means of production into state ownership none of them offered democracy.

The bath party of Iraq was formed from the Islamic socialist party and the Nazi party was formed from the socialist party but as with all dictatorships it's all about the party and never about the people.

In fact the best example of socialist democratic parties are probably the Scandinavian examples, there not the wealthiest nor the poorest but they do nearly always lead the happiness table!.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

It's no different than what you see in Beijing today, if you take a look you'll notice there's huge protests about air quality!.

I definately do confuse socialism and communism. What is socialism, is it like diet-communism? Wasn't Hitler a socilaist - or did he just mis-spell his own party name? Saddam Hussein definately was.

I think it's a deliberately ambiguous term designed to conceal the fact that countries that go past the centre left aren't economically successful. .

In fact the best example of socialist democratic parties are probably the Scandinavian examples, there not the wealthiest nor the poorest but they do nearly always lead the happiness table!."

Right so it's communism with elections then?

I hate to break it to you but the Scandinavian countries are all capitalist. I don't have an issue with centre left parties, but fundamentally either you have private properly or you don't. No market is entirely free but no country has ever been economically successful without the magic of private property.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

It's no different than what you see in Beijing today, if you take a look you'll notice there's huge protests about air quality!.

I definately do confuse socialism and communism. What is socialism, is it like diet-communism? Wasn't Hitler a socilaist - or did he just mis-spell his own party name? Saddam Hussein definately was.

I think it's a deliberately ambiguous term designed to conceal the fact that countries that go past the centre left aren't economically successful. .

In fact the best example of socialist democratic parties are probably the Scandinavian examples, there not the wealthiest nor the poorest but they do nearly always lead the happiness table!.

Right so it's communism with elections then?

Yeah of course there capitalist.

Capitalism is an economic system and so was communism.

Socialism is a political ideology like conservatism or liberalism.

I don't think I've ever met a socialist who was against private property perse.... And I've met alot of socialists

... In reality nearly every western country has socialist traits, even America has social security and a soon to be social health care, Cameron is investing in mortgages for first time buyers and increasing social housing...

Republics turn into democracies and democracies degenerate into despotism and all that!!

You can basically boil it down to two main differences.

Those who belive in society improving through politics and those who belive in society improving through wealth.

I would say personally I'm neither

But I would be happy being called a Trotskyist or a Thatcherite but not a Blairite or a Cameronite.

There just centre ground snake oil tits without any real passion or beliefs!

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

most socialist parties is they belive in the ownership of production being in the hands of the society

I don't think I've ever met a socialist who was against private property per se...."

Well which is it!? Are the means of production in private hands or the hands of 'society', whatever that means?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

most socialist parties is they belive in the ownership of production being in the hands of the society

I don't think I've ever met a socialist who was against private property per se....

Well which is it!? Are the means of production in private hands or the hands of 'society', whatever that means? "
.

So the NHS, you own, you have a share of ownership, you put your money into it via taxation and your return is meant to be cheaper healthcare because it's negated profit!.

Now let's say they sell it off and you buy £5000 pounds worth of shares!, your still an owner but now you receive a dividend every year in money(paid out of the profit) instead of cheaper health care.

This system in reality only balances out the difference between those who can afford £5000 of shares and those that can't!

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

most socialist parties is they belive in the ownership of production being in the hands of the society

I don't think I've ever met a socialist who was against private property per se....

Well which is it!? Are the means of production in private hands or the hands of 'society', whatever that means? .

So the NHS, you own, you have a share of ownership, you put your money into it via taxation and your return is meant to be cheaper healthcare because it's negated profit!.

This system in reality only balances out the difference between those who can afford £5000 of shares and those that can't!

I'm going to sidestep that rabbit hole and ask again, do socialists want the majority of the means of production in private hands or public? I'm not interested in specific instances, it's a general principle.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

most socialist parties is they belive in the ownership of production being in the hands of the society

I don't think I've ever met a socialist who was against private property per se....

Well which is it!? Are the means of production in private hands or the hands of 'society', whatever that means? .

So the NHS, you own, you have a share of ownership, you put your money into it via taxation and your return is meant to be cheaper healthcare because it's negated profit!.

This system in reality only balances out the difference between those who can afford £5000 of shares and those that can't!

Well the general principle has always been the belief that the intrinsics like health, schools, prisons, transport, law, armed forces, energy.

The stuff that's considered to important to be in the hands of a few and not the many... Hence the difference between being owned by everyone or being owned by possibly just a few!.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

most socialist parties is they belive in the ownership of production being in the hands of the society

I don't think I've ever met a socialist who was against private property per se....

Well which is it!? Are the means of production in private hands or the hands of 'society', whatever that means? .

So the NHS, you own, you have a share of ownership, you put your money into it via taxation and your return is meant to be cheaper healthcare because it's negated profit!.

This system in reality only balances out the difference between those who can afford £5000 of shares and those that can't!

Well the general principle has always been the belief that the intrinsics like health, schools, prisons, transport, law, armed forces, energy.

The stuff that's considered to important to be in the hands of a few and not the many... Hence the difference between being owned by everyone or being owned by possibly just a few!."

Right so we're basically back to communism with elections then

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

most socialist parties is they belive in the ownership of production being in the hands of the society

I don't think I've ever met a socialist who was against private property per se....

Well which is it!? Are the means of production in private hands or the hands of 'society', whatever that means? .

So the NHS, you own, you have a share of ownership, you put your money into it via taxation and your return is meant to be cheaper healthcare because it's negated profit!.

This system in reality only balances out the difference between those who can afford £5000 of shares and those that can't!

Well the general principle has always been the belief that the intrinsics like health, schools, prisons, transport, law, armed forces, energy.

The stuff that's considered to important to be in the hands of a few and not the many... Hence the difference between being owned by everyone or being owned by possibly just a few!.

Right so we're basically back to communism with elections then"
.

No not really...communism is an economic and political ideological system with the ultimate goal of money and state being removed!.

There's fundermental differences between Marxism, Trotskyism, Leninism, communism and socialism... Just because they end with ism doesn't mean it's the same thing!,capitalism ends with ism.

I don't have a problem with the state(US) owning certain things!

I wouldn't want a privatised armed forces for obvious reasons...

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By *rightonsteveMan
over a year ago

Brighton - even Hove!

I think state ownership for essential services would be a good idea if they were run efficiently not like when they had power cuts and poor service and stuff.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I think state ownership for essential services would be a good idea if they were run efficiently not like when they had power cuts and poor service and stuff. "
.

Most of our essential services are owned by the state...

Just not our state

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By *rightonsteveMan
over a year ago

Brighton - even Hove!

"I think state ownership for essential services would be a good idea if they were run efficiently not like when they had power cuts and poor service and stuff. .

Most of our essential services are owned by the state...

Just not our state

It does seem daft to sell off essential services to foreign people.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

most socialist parties is they belive in the ownership of production being in the hands of the society

I don't think I've ever met a socialist who was against private property per se....

Well which is it!? Are the means of production in private hands or the hands of 'society', whatever that means? .

So the NHS, you own, you have a share of ownership, you put your money into it via taxation and your return is meant to be cheaper healthcare because it's negated profit!.

This system in reality only balances out the difference between those who can afford £5000 of shares and those that can't!

Well the general principle has always been the belief that the intrinsics like health, schools, prisons, transport, law, armed forces, energy.

The stuff that's considered to important to be in the hands of a few and not the many... Hence the difference between being owned by everyone or being owned by possibly just a few!.

Right so we're basically back to communism with elections then.

No not really...communism is an economic and political ideological system with the ultimate goal of money and state being removed!.

There's fundermental differences between Marxism, Trotskyism, Leninism, communism and socialism... Just because they end with ism doesn't mean it's the same thing!,capitalism ends with ism.

I don't have a problem with the state(US) owning certain things!

I wouldn't want a privatised armed forces for obvious reasons..."

OK well I'm still confused and still can't tell the difference. Maybe the problem is that the outcome of these lovely intentions is nothing like it's supposed to be, or maybe I'm just not smart enough to understand it.

You say that profit makes things more expensive, but the Soviet Union went bankrupt trying to compete with the americans! You say that communists want to abolish the state, but in reality they built the most powerful states there ever have been!

Have you ever heard of the agent-principle problem by the way?

See if you can convince _otlovefun42, I don't think I'll ever get it.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I think state ownership for essential services would be a good idea if they were run efficiently not like when they had power cuts and poor service and stuff. .

Most of our essential services are owned by the state...

Just not our state

It does seem daft to sell off essential services to foreign people. "

As opposed to the NHS which is state owned by run by foreign people

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By *rightonsteveMan
over a year ago

Brighton - even Hove!

"I think state ownership for essential services would be a good idea if they were run efficiently not like when they had power cuts and poor service and stuff. .

Most of our essential services are owned by the state...

Just not our state

It does seem daft to sell off essential services to foreign people.

As opposed to the NHS which is state owned by run by foreign people"

That is perfectly acceptable.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I think state ownership for essential services would be a good idea if they were run efficiently not like when they had power cuts and poor service and stuff. .

Most of our essential services are owned by the state...

Just not our state

It does seem daft to sell off essential services to foreign people.

As opposed to the NHS which is state owned by run by foreign people

That is perfectly acceptable. "

I just find it ironic that Labour bang on about wanting better wages for working people but their flagship NHS only survives by importing labour from lower-wage economies. The implication being that the NHS doesn't pay staff their market value (e.g. nurses)

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By *rightonsteveMan
over a year ago

Brighton - even Hove!

"I think state ownership for essential services would be a good idea if they were run efficiently not like when they had power cuts and poor service and stuff. .

Most of our essential services are owned by the state...

Just not our state

It does seem daft to sell off essential services to foreign people.

As opposed to the NHS which is state owned by run by foreign people

That is perfectly acceptable.

That's not an implication, it's an inference.

Besides which, I'm not going to get dragged into a puerile argument about which is better - obviously and clearly, if one system was better than the other then that's the system that would used to the exclusion of all others, but there isn't, so it's not. QED.