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Junior Doctors to Strike

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By *anchestercub OP   Man
over a year ago

manchester & NI

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-34859860

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By *anchestercub OP   Man
over a year ago

manchester & NI

[Removed by poster at 19/11/15 12:37:27]

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I fully support them,they're too tired to think straight and hold masses of responsibility with little support

I'd much rather be treated by someone with a sharp and alert mind,and I'd want the same for everyone else too

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By *anchestercub OP   Man
over a year ago

manchester & NI


"I fully support them,they're too tired to think straight and hold masses of responsibility with little support

I'd much rather be treated by someone with a sharp and alert mind,and I'd want the same for everyone else too"

I think the new deal being proposed was more to do with affecting pay than hours.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"I fully support them,they're too tired to think straight and hold masses of responsibility with little support

I'd much rather be treated by someone with a sharp and alert mind,and I'd want the same for everyone else too

I think the new deal being proposed was more to do with affecting pay than hours. "

So they do more for less

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By *anchestercub OP   Man
over a year ago

manchester & NI


"I fully support them,they're too tired to think straight and hold masses of responsibility with little support

I'd much rather be treated by someone with a sharp and alert mind,and I'd want the same for everyone else too

I think the new deal being proposed was more to do with affecting pay than hours.

So they do more for less"

The same for less from what I can make out so far.

The payments/rates are planned to be changed for unsociable hours.

There's a good graph here to show the changes

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-34775980

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

If teachers,train drivers and firemen can strike then so can severely overworked doctors and nurses. The point of Unions was so employers can't abuse their power and treat people unfairly. Striking is a last resort for some,for others it's a yearly event.

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By *anchestercub OP   Man
over a year ago

manchester & NI


"If teachers,train drivers and firemen can strike then so can severely overworked doctors and nurses. The point of Unions was so employers can't abuse their power and treat people unfairly. Striking is a last resort for some,for others it's a yearly event. "

I hope the doctors don't get as much of a hard time as the train drivers and teachers got.

As you say, sometimes they have to stand up.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"I fully support them,they're too tired to think straight and hold masses of responsibility with little support

I'd much rather be treated by someone with a sharp and alert mind,and I'd want the same for everyone else too

I think the new deal being proposed was more to do with affecting pay than hours.

So they do more for less

The same for less from what I can make out so far.

The payments/rates are planned to be changed for unsociable hours.

There's a good graph here to show the changes

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-34775980"

Its wrong,were in a climate where trusts can't employ permanent Drs or nurses because there is no attraction for the job so they now try to penalise the ones they do have by cutting their unsocial pay which will drive them to agencies

Then the trusts pay shit loads to agencies to at least attempt to maintain a safe level of staffing,I'm going to use the term safe loosely because in acute areas there are very different versions of what manager think are safe and what actual medics think are safe,the manager will always win

The same thing will happen to nurses unsocial payments too,they'll eventually try to phase it out,so they get no enhancement for working a sometimes horrendous shifts pattern under constant pressure

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

It's interesting that an MP's 'unsocial hours' begin at 7.30pm when they can then claim accommodation and a meal...

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"It's interesting that an MP's 'unsocial hours' begin at 7.30pm when they can then claim accommodation and a meal..."

I'd like to use the word cunts in this context

That is twice in an hour

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

My aunty is a nurse due to not having child care atm she had to go on to agency or "bank" staff she gets paid a lot more and can pick and choose when she works, just no benefit of being employed by the nhs

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"My aunty is a nurse due to not having child care atm she had to go on to agency or "bank" staff she gets paid a lot more and can pick and choose when she works, just no benefit of being employed by the nhs"

Or continuity of care for patients who never see the same nurse twice in some areas or wards that are solely staffed by agency and bank

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

[Removed by poster at 19/11/15 14:35:34]

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Strike, strike, strike, we live in bad times, hey, why don't we all go on strike lol.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

My sister is a doctor.

These changes mean that their employers can basically demand anything of them at any time.

Which in real terms means exhausted staff and accidents will happen. Its not fair to the doctors and its dangerous for the patients.

It will drive people abroad.

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By *uited staffs guyMan
over a year ago

staffordshire

the fact they need 'pay protection' tells you all you need to know, in other words it's a pay cut - from the calculator provided they gain £2000-3000 from the '11%' basic pay rise then lose £12000-15000 in out of hours payments

I don't think there's anyone here that would take that lying down!

And even before this they were heading off to Australia, Canada etc (where they don't do this sort of stuff), it's ok for hunt he's got private health insurance what about the rest of the country who need to see a doctor in 5 years time?

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By *anchestercub OP   Man
over a year ago

manchester & NI

I might watch Question Time tonight.

Last time a teachers strike was announced the audience were quite hostile to it - it'll be interesting to see if it's the same with the doctors.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I shall watch it too

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By *anchestercub OP   Man
over a year ago

manchester & NI

The G's main stance is to support the doctors but they've also published an article by a junior doctor who is against striking, which makes for an interesting read.

http://www.theguardian.com/healthcare-network/2015/nov/19/junior-doctors-contract-strike

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By *opsy RogersWoman
over a year ago

London

...and just so there's no doubt, a 'junior' doctor is anybody who is not at Consultant level. It takes many, many years to become a consultant.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"the fact they need 'pay protection' tells you all you need to know, in other words it's a pay cut - from the calculator provided they gain £2000-3000 from the '11%' basic pay rise then lose £12000-15000 in out of hours payments

I don't think there's anyone here that would take that lying down!

And even before this they were heading off to Australia, Canada etc (where they don't do this sort of stuff), it's ok for hunt he's got private health insurance what about the rest of the country who need to see a doctor in 5 years time?"

Just a word for all the medical staff who are not doctors or nurses, the ones we never hear about who don't have a strong union who accept 1% payrise and work weekends to keep the cover up and don't go home until the work is done. They don't like it but they put up with it, because most of them are dedicated professionals.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Are you saying that people who stand up and say that something isn't fair aren't dedicated professionals?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"Are you saying that people who stand up and say that something isn't fair aren't dedicated professionals?"

walking out for 3 days is not the solution

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"the fact they need 'pay protection' tells you all you need to know, in other words it's a pay cut - from the calculator provided they gain £2000-3000 from the '11%' basic pay rise then lose £12000-15000 in out of hours payments

I don't think there's anyone here that would take that lying down!

And even before this they were heading off to Australia, Canada etc (where they don't do this sort of stuff), it's ok for hunt he's got private health insurance what about the rest of the country who need to see a doctor in 5 years time?

Just a word for all the medical staff who are not doctors or nurses, the ones we never hear about who don't have a strong union who accept 1% payrise and work weekends to keep the cover up and don't go home until the work is done. They don't like it but they put up with it, because most of them are dedicated professionals."

Yes but they are less likely to slip and nick an artery or miss a stitch when they are on their knees with exhaustion.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"Are you saying that people who stand up and say that something isn't fair aren't dedicated professionals?"

Was thinking that to

I will throw my 2pennies worth in I was treated in a&e last week after accident at work.the doctor was polite.professional got to add hot to..but I digress over small talk found out she has to do consulting work to supplement her income which I found shocking.so this new pay deal is terrible for them and I for one fully support this action

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"the fact they need 'pay protection' tells you all you need to know, in other words it's a pay cut - from the calculator provided they gain £2000-3000 from the '11%' basic pay rise then lose £12000-15000 in out of hours payments

I don't think there's anyone here that would take that lying down!

And even before this they were heading off to Australia, Canada etc (where they don't do this sort of stuff), it's ok for hunt he's got private health insurance what about the rest of the country who need to see a doctor in 5 years time?

Just a word for all the medical staff who are not doctors or nurses, the ones we never hear about who don't have a strong union who accept 1% payrise and work weekends to keep the cover up and don't go home until the work is done. They don't like it but they put up with it, because most of them are dedicated professionals.

Yes but they are less likely to slip and nick an artery or miss a stitch when they are on their knees with exhaustion."

or prescribe the wrong medication, or misdiagnose a scan, or mix up the blood samples its a team I think thats the point and the Drs are letting the team down. The other medical staff are so badly paid they in effect subsidise the Drs pay anyway

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By *imiUKMan
over a year ago

Hereford


"Are you saying that people who stand up and say that something isn't fair aren't dedicated professionals?

walking out for 3 days is not the solution"

That isn't answering the question, is it?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"Are you saying that people who stand up and say that something isn't fair aren't dedicated professionals?

walking out for 3 days is not the solution"

Work on a go slow and sleep when they need to?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"Are you saying that people who stand up and say that something isn't fair aren't dedicated professionals?

walking out for 3 days is not the solution

That isn't answering the question, is it?"

Walking out is not professional in my book no

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

[Removed by poster at 19/11/15 17:49:46]

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By *opsy RogersWoman
over a year ago

London


"the fact they need 'pay protection' tells you all you need to know, in other words it's a pay cut - from the calculator provided they gain £2000-3000 from the '11%' basic pay rise then lose £12000-15000 in out of hours payments

I don't think there's anyone here that would take that lying down!

And even before this they were heading off to Australia, Canada etc (where they don't do this sort of stuff), it's ok for hunt he's got private health insurance what about the rest of the country who need to see a doctor in 5 years time?

Just a word for all the medical staff who are not doctors or nurses, the ones we never hear about who don't have a strong union who accept 1% payrise and work weekends to keep the cover up and don't go home until the work is done. They don't like it but they put up with it, because most of them are dedicated professionals.

Yes but they are less likely to slip and nick an artery or miss a stitch when they are on their knees with exhaustion.

or prescribe the wrong medication, or misdiagnose a scan, or mix up the blood samples its a team I think thats the point and the Drs are letting the team down. The other medical staff are so badly paid they in effect subsidise the Drs pay anyway "

Your ignoranceof the subject is showing, tuck it back in please.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"the fact they need 'pay protection' tells you all you need to know, in other words it's a pay cut - from the calculator provided they gain £2000-3000 from the '11%' basic pay rise then lose £12000-15000 in out of hours payments

I don't think there's anyone here that would take that lying down!

And even before this they were heading off to Australia, Canada etc (where they don't do this sort of stuff), it's ok for hunt he's got private health insurance what about the rest of the country who need to see a doctor in 5 years time?

Just a word for all the medical staff who are not doctors or nurses, the ones we never hear about who don't have a strong union who accept 1% payrise and work weekends to keep the cover up and don't go home until the work is done. They don't like it but they put up with it, because most of them are dedicated professionals.

Yes but they are less likely to slip and nick an artery or miss a stitch when they are on their knees with exhaustion.

or prescribe the wrong medication, or misdiagnose a scan, or mix up the blood samples its a team I think thats the point and the Drs are letting the team down. The other medical staff are so badly paid they in effect subsidise the Drs pay anyway

Your ignoranceof the subject is showing, tuck it back in please."

you need to be a little more specific on that one

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"the fact they need 'pay protection' tells you all you need to know, in other words it's a pay cut - from the calculator provided they gain £2000-3000 from the '11%' basic pay rise then lose £12000-15000 in out of hours payments

I don't think there's anyone here that would take that lying down!

And even before this they were heading off to Australia, Canada etc (where they don't do this sort of stuff), it's ok for hunt he's got private health insurance what about the rest of the country who need to see a doctor in 5 years time?

Just a word for all the medical staff who are not doctors or nurses, the ones we never hear about who don't have a strong union who accept 1% payrise and work weekends to keep the cover up and don't go home until the work is done. They don't like it but they put up with it, because most of them are dedicated professionals.

Yes but they are less likely to slip and nick an artery or miss a stitch when they are on their knees with exhaustion.

or prescribe the wrong medication, or misdiagnose a scan, or mix up the blood samples its a team I think thats the point and the Drs are letting the team down. The other medical staff are so badly paid they in effect subsidise the Drs pay anyway "

You clearly have a different agenda and axe to grind

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"the fact they need 'pay protection' tells you all you need to know, in other words it's a pay cut - from the calculator provided they gain £2000-3000 from the '11%' basic pay rise then lose £12000-15000 in out of hours payments

I don't think there's anyone here that would take that lying down!

And even before this they were heading off to Australia, Canada etc (where they don't do this sort of stuff), it's ok for hunt he's got private health insurance what about the rest of the country who need to see a doctor in 5 years time?

Just a word for all the medical staff who are not doctors or nurses, the ones we never hear about who don't have a strong union who accept 1% payrise and work weekends to keep the cover up and don't go home until the work is done. They don't like it but they put up with it, because most of them are dedicated professionals.

Yes but they are less likely to slip and nick an artery or miss a stitch when they are on their knees with exhaustion.

or prescribe the wrong medication, or misdiagnose a scan, or mix up the blood samples its a team I think thats the point and the Drs are letting the team down. The other medical staff are so badly paid they in effect subsidise the Drs pay anyway

You clearly have a different agenda and axe to grind"

I do have a different agenda for another day, my only beef is that Drs use their position and public support when others cant and no one sticks up for them. they are just part of the team, and they should not walk out.

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By *imiUKMan
over a year ago

Hereford


"the fact they need 'pay protection' tells you all you need to know, in other words it's a pay cut - from the calculator provided they gain £2000-3000 from the '11%' basic pay rise then lose £12000-15000 in out of hours payments

I don't think there's anyone here that would take that lying down!

And even before this they were heading off to Australia, Canada etc (where they don't do this sort of stuff), it's ok for hunt he's got private health insurance what about the rest of the country who need to see a doctor in 5 years time?

Just a word for all the medical staff who are not doctors or nurses, the ones we never hear about who don't have a strong union who accept 1% payrise and work weekends to keep the cover up and don't go home until the work is done. They don't like it but they put up with it, because most of them are dedicated professionals.

Yes but they are less likely to slip and nick an artery or miss a stitch when they are on their knees with exhaustion.

or prescribe the wrong medication, or misdiagnose a scan, or mix up the blood samples its a team I think thats the point and the Drs are letting the team down. The other medical staff are so badly paid they in effect subsidise the Drs pay anyway

You clearly have a different agenda and axe to grind

I do have a different agenda for another day, my only beef is that Drs use their position and public support when others cant and no one sticks up for them. they are just part of the team, and they should not walk out. "

If nobody walks out then everybody can be ridden over roughshod.

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By *sianmale89Man
over a year ago

Stockport


"http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-34859860"

never been on a strike/protest myself before but I can't say I blame them as the government is more or less squeezing all the emergency services and the NHS/education system and also some of the business in the country..

no wonder why so many people are striking/protesting as it seems their at the breaking point.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"the fact they need 'pay protection' tells you all you need to know, in other words it's a pay cut - from the calculator provided they gain £2000-3000 from the '11%' basic pay rise then lose £12000-15000 in out of hours payments

I don't think there's anyone here that would take that lying down!

And even before this they were heading off to Australia, Canada etc (where they don't do this sort of stuff), it's ok for hunt he's got private health insurance what about the rest of the country who need to see a doctor in 5 years time?

Just a word for all the medical staff who are not doctors or nurses, the ones we never hear about who don't have a strong union who accept 1% payrise and work weekends to keep the cover up and don't go home until the work is done. They don't like it but they put up with it, because most of them are dedicated professionals.

Yes but they are less likely to slip and nick an artery or miss a stitch when they are on their knees with exhaustion.

or prescribe the wrong medication, or misdiagnose a scan, or mix up the blood samples its a team I think thats the point and the Drs are letting the team down. The other medical staff are so badly paid they in effect subsidise the Drs pay anyway

You clearly have a different agenda and axe to grind

I do have a different agenda for another day, my only beef is that Drs use their position and public support when others cant and no one sticks up for them. they are just part of the team, and they should not walk out.

If nobody walks out then everybody can be ridden over roughshod. "

I think that is my point every one else is already ridden over and treated badly. Look they will get a better deal maybe without actually walking, maybe no one will die as a result, but that deal will come at a cost for others.

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By *anchestercub OP   Man
over a year ago

manchester & NI

[Removed by poster at 19/11/15 18:09:19]

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By *anchestercub OP   Man
over a year ago

manchester & NI

Does anyone know what constitute unsociable hours and premiums for these for other public sector workers like police/paramedics/fire brigade?

Google didn't yield much specific info.

It's hard to put this into context without comparing.

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By *anchestercub OP   Man
over a year ago

manchester & NI

So the Met seem to class unsociable hours as between 8pm and 6am paying a premium of time and 1/3.

But I don't know if weekends are considered unsociable hours or not for the Met.

The new proposal by Hunt is to have unsociable hours between 10pm - 7am paying between 133% - 150%.

That excludes Saturdays 7am-7pm from unsociable hours.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Unsociable hours where I work start at 20.00 till 07.00am.

And I agree they should strike, a fy1/fy2 are relied upon in hospitals. They majority of non clinical 'management' are paid triple what a junior dr fy1/fy2 are paid. A dr can save your life a non clinical manager can't it's as simple as that.

If NHS trusts cut managerial staff and admin staff they could afford to pay clinical staff ie: Drs/nurses more.

They pay rise is a 11% increase which in theory looks good, however reducing unsociable hours means between the the hours of 20.00-07.00 and weekends too so staffing will reduce significantly.

two questions to ask? 1. If a loved one was seriously ill, and the dr was due to finish work you would expect them to stay and give the best possible care would you not? 2. Why shouldn't they get paid for it??. In any other job you wouldn't stay unless you got paid.

Drs go above and beyond at times if an emergency comes in they stay to do the job they trained many years for. Yes there are always exceptions to the case however 9/10 they do the job, they choose to stay at work regardless of having plans that night.

Many Drs now in every hospital all over the country go above and beyond what they are paid for as do all NHS staff.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I think the whole thing is a ploy by the government to drive people to go in for private medical insurance so they can finally get rid of the nhs like the tories have been after doing for years. It's the same thing they are doing to education, simply run the employees into the ground by over working and under paying. All the while none are coming through because they cannot afford the tuition fees for uni meaning only the elite can qualify who will then only go into private practice.

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By *anchestercub OP   Man
over a year ago

manchester & NI


"

Many Drs now in every hospital all over the country go above and beyond what they are paid for as do all NHS staff. "

I'm sure the police and paramedics do too and teachers most certainly do.

It's not unique to doctors.

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By *rightonsteveMan
over a year ago

Brighton - even Hove!

I think doctors should get a huge pay rise.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Another point to make is… think what happened in France last weekend, if that happened over here who would be expected to help? That's right Drs and nurses they would be expected to work until all people were cared for. They deserve more. Who cares for the carers?

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By *ouple in LancashireCouple
over a year ago

in Lancashire


"Does anyone know what constitute unsociable hours and premiums for these for other public sector workers like police/paramedics/fire brigade?

Google didn't yield much specific info.

It's hard to put this into context without comparing. "

there is no such thing as unsocial hours in the fire service, weekends and evenings are just part of the rota whilst some bank holidays are paid at an enhanced rate roughly time and a half and if one is on duty on those days then the bank holiday is banked and can be taken at a later date staffing levels allowing..

personally i trust what they are saying rather than any government on this and hope sense prevails but if they walk out then that is down to one person who is trying to undermine their terms and conditions and that's Hunt..

rhymes with ....

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By *uited staffs guyMan
over a year ago

staffordshire

If doctors are so overpaid already and have an easy life, why are so many giving up this cushy life and leaving their close families to go to Canada, Australia etc? Just have a think about it for a while?

Governments of right and left abroad are happy to pay the fair amount for doctors to work there, it's us that don't hence why we're losing them so much to overseas

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"

Many Drs now in every hospital all over the country go above and beyond what they are paid for as do all NHS staff.

I'm sure the police and paramedics do too and teachers most certainly do.

It's not unique to doctors. "

your just being pedantic to be honest.

Do drs get as much holiday as teachers? do the get to go home on time? have dinner with there family or do they stay behind till the small hours trying to save a life?.

Paramedics often finish shift much later than there hours state as do firemen and police because in the middle of an incident they cant go home

Teachers do a hard job no question about it but unlike other professions there decisions dont mean life or death.

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By *oachman 9CoolMan
over a year ago

derby


"I fully support them,they're too tired to think straight and hold masses of responsibility with little support

I'd much rather be treated by someone with a sharp and alert mind,and I'd want the same for everyone else too

I think the new deal being proposed was more to do with affecting pay than hours.

So they do more for less

The same for less from what I can make out so far.

The payments/rates are planned to be changed for unsociable hours.

There's a good graph here to show the changes

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-34775980

Its wrong,were in a climate where trusts can't employ permanent Drs or nurses because there is no attraction for the job so they now try to penalise the ones they do have by cutting their unsocial pay which will drive them to agencies

Then the trusts pay shit loads to agencies to at least attempt to maintain a safe level of staffing,I'm going to use the term safe loosely because in acute areas there are very different versions of what manager think are safe and what actual medics think are safe,the manager will always win

The same thing will happen to nurses unsocial payments too,they'll eventually try to phase it out,so they get no enhancement for working a sometimes horrendous shifts pattern under constant pressure

"
Thats why over the last 30 odd Years a lot of nurse,s have gone abroad to work where they are treated Better, If not for the uptake of a lot Of foreign nurses here things could be Worst, agencies are leeches on the System helping to suck the life blood out of the nhs, the nurseing staff and doctors and everyone else Involved do A Incredible job, and this is how they Are rewarded, I know where my respect Lies and its not with the agencies or Managers but the people who are actually on the front line, not people Hideing in board rooms makeing the Decisions from looking at graphs from A projector on a screen how much have we saved this year, quite sad in need.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"...and just so there's no doubt, a 'junior' doctor is anybody who is not at Consultant level. It takes many, many years to become a consultant."

The terminology doesn't really help the debate because it makes people think of a freshly graduated 23 year old who can't put an IV in.

Fully support them. And pleased it was such a high response rate for the ballot.

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By *ust RachelTV/TS
over a year ago

Horsham


"If teachers,train drivers and firemen can strike then so can severely overworked doctors and nurses. The point of Unions was so employers can't abuse their power and treat people unfairly. Striking is a last resort for some,for others it's a yearly event. "

If you are a French or Spanish air traffic controller it is a monthly thing.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"the fact they need 'pay protection' tells you all you need to know, in other words it's a pay cut - from the calculator provided they gain £2000-3000 from the '11%' basic pay rise then lose £12000-15000 in out of hours payments

I don't think there's anyone here that would take that lying down!

And even before this they were heading off to Australia, Canada etc (where they don't do this sort of stuff), it's ok for hunt he's got private health insurance what about the rest of the country who need to see a doctor in 5 years time?

Just a word for all the medical staff who are not doctors or nurses, the ones we never hear about who don't have a strong union who accept 1% payrise and work weekends to keep the cover up and don't go home until the work is done. They don't like it but they put up with it, because most of them are dedicated professionals."
well said

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By *uited staffs guyMan
over a year ago

staffordshire

One thing I've never understood is if one set of workers are being downtrodden or mistreated or underpaid the desire of some to drag the others down to join their problems rather than questioning their own position and why it isn't being sorted out

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"

Many Drs now in every hospital all over the country go above and beyond what they are paid for as do all NHS staff.

I'm sure the police and paramedics do too and teachers most certainly do.

It's not unique to doctors.

your just being pedantic to be honest.

Do drs get as much holiday as teachers? do the get to go home on time? have dinner with there family or do they stay behind till the small hours trying to save a life?.

Paramedics often finish shift much later than there hours state as do firemen and police because in the middle of an incident they cant go home

Teachers do a hard job no question about it but unlike other professions there decisions dont mean life or death."

i beg to differ on many of your points about teachers

This is a great misconception, my OH starts work around 7:30am works till around 17:30 if she's very lucky, when she gets home she starts marking papers and books until around 9pm when she might catch a little tv if she's lucky. Half terms, Easter break, xmas & summer holidays are spent either marking or lesson planning for the up coming terms, not to mention planning revision sessions. Her work load has doubled since the start of the school year.

Yes your right their choice to teach doesn't directly affect life or death but a failure on teaching children properly could result in a potential doctor not getting the grades to progress further and becoming a life saver.

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By *eavenNhellCouple
over a year ago

carrbrook stalybridge


"One thing I've never understood is if one set of workers are being downtrodden or mistreated or underpaid the desire of some to drag the others down to join their problems rather than questioning their own position and why it isn't being sorted out "
welcome to thatchers Britain the I'm alright jack generation and the race to the bottom with wages and conditions but were all in it together remember

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By *anchestercub OP   Man
over a year ago

manchester & NI


"

Many Drs now in every hospital all over the country go above and beyond what they are paid for as do all NHS staff.

I'm sure the police and paramedics do too and teachers most certainly do.

It's not unique to doctors.

your just being pedantic to be honest.

Do drs get as much holiday as teachers? do the get to go home on time? have dinner with there family or do they stay behind till the small hours trying to save a life?.

Paramedics often finish shift much later than there hours state as do firemen and police because in the middle of an incident they cant go home

Teachers do a hard job no question about it but unlike other professions there decisions dont mean life or death."

I'm not being pedantic at all.

Doctors are not a special case.

Many professions make life and death decisions and a few even put themselves in harm's way.

I'm not a supporter of the cuts but this is bringing doctors rate of unsociable hours and unsociable pay in line with other public sector workers. It's unfair to those who have had reforms if one profession is protected from them.

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By *awtymarkyMan
over a year ago

chester

Well totally agree with the strike and they should get paid more for their job. The pressure and not too mention talents / skills far out way the reasons not too strike. The government need to look at other costs which are costing more than dr pay rise.

I.e.

1)The amount of wasteful prescriptions

2)The cost in keeping illegal immigrants in the uk

3)The amount of money mps are paid just to sit and argue

4)The cost of high speed train line

5)Benifits to people who don't need them or just plain lazy and not wanting to work what was the saying on benefit street "why should I work as I get more on benefit than a wage would give me"

Angry to say the least on these government muppets

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"I think doctors should get a huge pay rise. "

And what about the other staff highly trained medical staff don't they count, why is it always just about the Drs

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"One thing I've never understood is if one set of workers are being downtrodden or mistreated or underpaid the desire of some to drag the others down to join their problems rather than questioning their own position and why it isn't being sorted out welcome to thatchers Britain the I'm alright jack generation and the race to the bottom with wages and conditions but were all in it together remember "

I think you will find she died a while back, and since then 15 yrs of spend spend spend socialists have bankrupted our services

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"I think doctors should get a huge pay rise.

And what about the other staff highly trained medical staff don't they count, why is it always just about the Drs"

Because this thread is about Drs so we're talking about Drs

Feel free to start your own thread about anything but Drs or ignore this one seeing as you have an issue with them

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"I think doctors should get a huge pay rise.

And what about the other staff highly trained medical staff don't they count, why is it always just about the Drs

Because this thread is about Drs so we're talking about Drs

Feel free to start your own thread about anything but Drs or ignore this one seeing as you have an issue with them "

Its about the NHS, drs on their own are about as much use as a chocolate tea pot

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By *anchestercub OP   Man
over a year ago

manchester & NI


"I think doctors should get a huge pay rise.

And what about the other staff highly trained medical staff don't they count, why is it always just about the Drs

Because this thread is about Drs so we're talking about Drs

Feel free to start your own thread about anything but Drs or ignore this one seeing as you have an issue with them

Its about the NHS, drs on their own are about as much use as a chocolate tea pot"

I've not been hearing the same rhetoric over the BMA that I've heard about other unions the past several years from the Gov.

Maybe it's there and I just haven't heard it because the plans have been quite strecthed out over 3 years or so.

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By *onbons_xxMan
over a year ago

Bolton

Its my day off today, think I'm having a busman's holiday (no I'm not a doctor!)

I think junior doctors have as much right as anyone else to strike, whether it's right or wrong is a different and ultimately a subjective matter.

However, there's no doubting they work far too many hours which isn't really conducive to them learning, providing the care for patients (which always seems to get lost in the debate) and trying to make the nhs a world class operation, it's struggling in case anyone hasn't noticed, costs are spiralling and drastic cuts are happening, the numbers don't add up.

If I was a patient I'd want my nurses/doctors/ahp's/whoever else is involved to be able to do the best job they can. At the minute I don't think junior doctors can.

Right, I should be off to mooch around or something.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"I fully support them,they're too tired to think straight and hold masses of responsibility with little support

I'd much rather be treated by someone with a sharp and alert mind,and I'd want the same for everyone else too"

Spot on.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"I think doctors should get a huge pay rise.

And what about the other staff highly trained medical staff don't they count, why is it always just about the Drs

Because this thread is about Drs so we're talking about Drs

Feel free to start your own thread about anything but Drs or ignore this one seeing as you have an issue with them

Its about the NHS, drs on their own are about as much use as a chocolate tea pot"

I completely agree with that statement,yet you don't show a shred of team support for them which is sad

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By *ethnmelvCouple
over a year ago

Cardiff

I think it would be good if this went to arbitration. It seems that each side is at loggerheads and a bit of common sense needs to apply.

Strikes never help anyone, and most definately not the patients...

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"I think doctors should get a huge pay rise.

And what about the other staff highly trained medical staff don't they count, why is it always just about the Drs

Because this thread is about Drs so we're talking about Drs

Feel free to start your own thread about anything but Drs or ignore this one seeing as you have an issue with them

Its about the NHS, drs on their own are about as much use as a chocolate tea pot

I completely agree with that statement,yet you don't show a shred of team support for them which is sad

"

They all need to work together as a team not as independent specialists, you misunderstand my point. mu opposition is not to their deal but to the strike action and the impact that has on others. 99% of their public support does not consider the consequences of their actions or the plight of low pay and anti social hours that the others in the NHS work

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By *edphoneMan
over a year ago

Leeds

Yes we all know there are more people in the NHS than just doctors, and yes we all know that there are more public sector workers than just the NHS. However this particular conversation is about doctors, not porters or teachers or road sweepers. People in those other jobs do work hard, but that's not what we're talking about.

To keep on topic...

Mr Hunt is using moral blackmail to bully doctors. It's along the lines of "If you don't do what I say then people will die". Now he's realising that bullying is not the way to a successful negotiation. So no surprise that there is a chronic shortages of doctors. They get trained at our expense then more and more of them leave to work in countries where they are not used as a political football.

As for the argument about 7 day working, the research Hunt keeps quoting about weekend mortality says "“It is not possible to ascertain the extent to which these excess deaths may be preventable. To assume that they are avoidable would be rash and misleading". He never quotes that bit does he?

As it happens, every doctor interviewed on radio or TV says they understand the need for more flexible working to provide greater cover. What they are objecting to is the idea that they can somehow stretch themselves even further to provide more cover when they are already at breaking point.

The biggest irony is that this situation has come about because the NHS is a monopoly run on a command and control business model, but the politicians exerting that centralising control are the ones shouting about localism and a small state.

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By *anchestercub OP   Man
over a year ago

manchester & NI

We don't live in a vacuum. Context is everything.

I'd love all the public services to have the same rate of unsociable pay as doctors but that's not going to happen. So it's only fair that doctors are paid in line with everyone else.


"They get trained at our expense then more and more of them leave to work in countries where they are not used as a political football."

Yes they most certainly do and should have a minimum years of service requirement to get what we've paid for before the GMC gives them a Certificate of Current Professional Status so they can work abroad.

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By *uited staffs guyMan
over a year ago

staffordshire

If they get free training who's having them £45000 tuition fees before they even get a salary then?

Here's an alternative, why don't we pay a reasonable salary like governments of left and right do in the other English speaking countries so they don't leave in the first place?

There is choice not to pay loads less than all the other countries do?

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By *anchestercub OP   Man
over a year ago

manchester & NI


"If they get free training who's having them £45000 tuition fees before they even get a salary then?

Here's an alternative, why don't we pay a reasonable salary like governments of left and right do in the other English speaking countries so they don't leave in the first place?

There is choice not to pay loads less than all the other countries do?"

Should we start paying them consultant rates as soon as they graduate from uni?

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By *uited staffs guyMan
over a year ago

staffordshire


"If they get free training who's having them £45000 tuition fees before they even get a salary then?

Here's an alternative, why don't we pay a reasonable salary like governments of left and right do in the other English speaking countries so they don't leave in the first place?

There is choice not to pay loads less than all the other countries do?

Should we start paying them consultant rates as soon as they graduate from uni? "

Why would you think that? What a bizarre idea?

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By *anchestercub OP   Man
over a year ago

manchester & NI


"If they get free training who's having them £45000 tuition fees before they even get a salary then?

Here's an alternative, why don't we pay a reasonable salary like governments of left and right do in the other English speaking countries so they don't leave in the first place?

There is choice not to pay loads less than all the other countries do?

Should we start paying them consultant rates as soon as they graduate from uni?

Why would you think that? What a bizarre idea?"

I was trying to gauge what constitutes a reasonable salary.

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By *uited staffs guyMan
over a year ago

staffordshire


"If they get free training who's having them £45000 tuition fees before they even get a salary then?

Here's an alternative, why don't we pay a reasonable salary like governments of left and right do in the other English speaking countries so they don't leave in the first place?

There is choice not to pay loads less than all the other countries do?

Should we start paying them consultant rates as soon as they graduate from uni?

Why would you think that? What a bizarre idea?

I was trying to gauge what constitutes a reasonable salary. "

Well to give you a clue Australia, NZ, Canada the US etc all pay more than we do now, which is why they're all going, how about as a radical idea, leaving an independent pay review body to take evidence and decide pay and take it away from a meddling Secretary of State?

So the current proposals to cut further would make that gap bigger, do you think that'll help the emigration problem?

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By *anchestercub OP   Man
over a year ago

manchester & NI


"If they get free training who's having them £45000 tuition fees before they even get a salary then?

Here's an alternative, why don't we pay a reasonable salary like governments of left and right do in the other English speaking countries so they don't leave in the first place?

There is choice not to pay loads less than all the other countries do?

Should we start paying them consultant rates as soon as they graduate from uni?

Why would you think that? What a bizarre idea?

I was trying to gauge what constitutes a reasonable salary.

Well to give you a clue Australia, NZ, Canada the US etc all pay more than we do now, which is why they're all going, how about as a radical idea, leaving an independent pay review body to take evidence and decide pay and take it away from a meddling Secretary of State?

So the current proposals to cut further would make that gap bigger, do you think that'll help the emigration problem?"

Sounds great if it extends to all public sector workers. I'd march for that.

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By *edphoneMan
over a year ago

Leeds

I'm not sure the doctor's argument is about pay. Admittedly they do get less than they could if they chose other career options, after all we're talking about people with the highest academic grades who have survived one of the toughest uni courses. However that has been the case for decades. What has happened now is that political bullying has snapped their tolerance.

If most of us were paid below market rate and then messed around by our employer would leave and get another job. Workers in the NHS don't get that choice. Governments of every colour take advantage of that to impose their political ideology.

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By *uited staffs guyMan
over a year ago

staffordshire

MPs have an independent pay review body decided on the basis of evidence, I don't see why doctors and all other public sector workers shouldn't as well

I think the doctors would prefer that, I genuinely think they've got better things to do than have to argue with Hunt

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By *ethnmelvCouple
over a year ago

Cardiff

Given that 50,000 employees of the NHS are paid over £100k and only 5% of those are non clinicians, the opportunity to earn good money is eventually there. I'm not sure how many junior doctors there are but the senior ones seem to do ok and there seems to be quite a lot of them...

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By *uited staffs guyMan
over a year ago

staffordshire


"Given that 50,000 employees of the NHS are paid over £100k and only 5% of those are non clinicians, the opportunity to earn good money is eventually there. I'm not sure how many junior doctors there are but the senior ones seem to do ok and there seems to be quite a lot of them..."

Without wishing to be flippant about money with the level of qualifications they have, and with 15 years of experience or so by the time they become consultants, other countries think that £100k is low and pay a lot more?

I'm sure there's plenty of Eastern European and developing country doctors who'd come here to work for that though if that's what the public want?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"Yes we all know there are more people in the NHS than just doctors, and yes we all know that there are more public sector workers than just the NHS. However this particular conversation is about doctors, not porters or teachers or road sweepers. People in those other jobs do work hard, but that's not what we're talking about.

To keep on topic...

Mr Hunt is using moral blackmail to bully doctors. It's along the lines of "If you don't do what I say then people will die". Now he's realising that bullying is not the way to a successful negotiation. So no surprise that there is a chronic shortages of doctors. They get trained at our expense then more and more of them leave to work in countries where they are not used as a political football.

As for the argument about 7 day working, the research Hunt keeps quoting about weekend mortality says "“It is not possible to ascertain the extent to which these excess deaths may be preventable. To assume that they are avoidable would be rash and misleading". He never quotes that bit does he?

As it happens, every doctor interviewed on radio or TV says they understand the need for more flexible working to provide greater cover. What they are objecting to is the idea that they can somehow stretch themselves even further to provide more cover when they are already at breaking point.

The biggest irony is that this situation has come about because the NHS is a monopoly run on a command and control business model, but the politicians exerting that centralising control are the ones shouting about localism and a small state.

"

Its this bit that bugs me and no one seems to get it, all of the other MEDICAL professions in HOSPITALS do now cover for weekends and have organised them selves to do so without any extra pay.

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By *uited staffs guyMan
over a year ago

staffordshire

However the government break it down is irrelevant

Whether you say X basic Y unsocial or add something to one and take it off another it's the total amount that matters, the bit in the bottom right hand corner

By all international and comparitor profession comparisons these junior doctors are not overpaid so shouldn't be having a paycut, now just because other groups, maybe working until hospital as well, maybe being badly treated doesn't give the excuse for that bad treatment to be shared around

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