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"There has been a fair amount of media attention on Germaine greer over her comments about transgender people. Some people have demanded that her talk at a university be cancelled over them. To summarise her comments, she believes that transgender women are in fact not women at all. She doesn't however advocate discrimination against them as has been stated. What are people's thoughts on her comments. Also what are people's thoughts on the backlash she has faced over them. " has she got an new book/film documentry out if so job done lots of free publicity for someone who has become increasingly irrelivent & ignored hence the publicity seeking outburst | |||
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"Daft old bint. Is she suggesting that to be a woman you have to be born with a uterus? What about the women who are unfortunate enough to be born without one? Are they not proper women either? Of course transgender people may look and behave differently to those born with normal gender identity but I doubt any of the rest of us can have any idea of what it's like to go through what they do. If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it is a duck. Not that I'm suggesting I'm into ducks or anything..." The whole duck thing confuses your comments, a lot of transgender women look like men are you suggesting that you are what you look like? | |||
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"Daft old bint. Is she suggesting that to be a woman you have to be born with a uterus? What about the women who are unfortunate enough to be born without one? Are they not proper women either? Of course transgender people may look and behave differently to those born with normal gender identity but I doubt any of the rest of us can have any idea of what it's like to go through what they do. If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it is a duck. Not that I'm suggesting I'm into ducks or anything..." No she didn't suggest that. You just said it. | |||
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"She's entitled to a view. There's absolutely no scientific 'fact' here so we're left with opinion. You can agree with her, disagree with her or even be offended by her. But, if she is vilified to the point of being unable to express a perfectly valid point I think that's a shame. As much good comes from people expressing views you don't agree with as those you do. "  | |||
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"She's entitled to a view. There's absolutely no scientific 'fact' here so we're left with opinion. You can agree with her, disagree with her or even be offended by her. But, if she is vilified to the point of being unable to express a perfectly valid point I think that's a shame. As much good comes from people expressing views you don't agree with as those you do. " | |||
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"Daft old bint. Is she suggesting that to be a woman you have to be born with a uterus? What about the women who are unfortunate enough to be born without one? Are they not proper women either? Of course transgender people may look and behave differently to those born with normal gender identity but I doubt any of the rest of us can have any idea of what it's like to go through what they do. If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it is a duck. Not that I'm suggesting I'm into ducks or anything..." Daft old bint? Using this descriptor is uncalled for. We still have freedom of speech in this country. | |||
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" No she didn't suggest that. You just said it. " So how do you interpret what she said? Born with a female brain but the wrong body - not a woman and never can be? She may be entitled to her opinion but I am equally entitled to call it daft. If such a person goes through all the things they have to do to try and make their appearance match the gender they identify with, the hormones, the surgery, etc etc, for someone in the public eye to come along and tell them "Nope, still a man sorry" must be incredibly hurtful and therefore deserves to be villified. | |||
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"Daft old bint. Is she suggesting that to be a woman you have to be born with a uterus? What about the women who are unfortunate enough to be born without one? Are they not proper women either? Of course transgender people may look and behave differently to those born with normal gender identity but I doubt any of the rest of us can have any idea of what it's like to go through what they do. If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it is a duck. Not that I'm suggesting I'm into ducks or anything... Daft old bint? Using this descriptor is uncalled for. We still have freedom of speech in this country." You realise the irony in your comment of course........ | |||
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"Daft old bint. Is she suggesting that to be a woman you have to be born with a uterus? What about the women who are unfortunate enough to be born without one? Are they not proper women either? Of course transgender people may look and behave differently to those born with normal gender identity but I doubt any of the rest of us can have any idea of what it's like to go through what they do. If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it is a duck. Not that I'm suggesting I'm into ducks or anything..." Germaine Greer is correct in her opinion that the operation does not make a transgender "male" female. That is a straightforward biological fact. I did not see her original comment but have watched her TV interview explaining what was said She is also correct when she says she would use female pronouns when referring to someone who wished to be known as a female. As for your last paragraph you obviously know little about nature there are many plans and "animals" who convincingly mimic other plants & animals without being that plant or animal. | |||
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"I'd like to know the context of her 'outburst' Ie did she answer a question or did it come from nowhere. And yes the context does matter." Facts and context?  | |||
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" Germaine Greer is correct in her opinion that the operation does not make a transgender "male" female. That is a straightforward biological fact. " "If a man...is gender re-assigned...outwardly, and he feels inwardly is a woman, in your view can he be a woman or not?" "No." That was what she said on Newsnight last night. I interpret that as, no matter what a transgender person does, they can never "be" the gender they feel they are. Yes she's entitled to that opinion, but my opinion is she should have kept it to herself. | |||
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"I'd like to know the context of her 'outburst' Ie did she answer a question or did it come from nowhere. And yes the context does matter." There was no outburst. This is an opinion she is known to hold which a group in the university where she was due to speak expressed their unhappiness with. It came from nowhere. Ish. She's never hidden this opinion and never ranted about it, simply stated it previously. However, just as she is entitled to hold this opinion the student body are entitled to protest. We wouldn't be surprised if they were protesting against a holocaust denier (for example). | |||
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"I'd like to know the context of her 'outburst' Ie did she answer a question or did it come from nowhere. And yes the context does matter. There was no outburst. This is an opinion she is known to hold which a group in the university where she was due to speak expressed their unhappiness with. It came from nowhere. Ish. She's never hidden this opinion and never ranted about it, simply stated it previously. However, just as she is entitled to hold this opinion the student body are entitled to protest. We wouldn't be surprised if they were protesting against a holocaust denier (for example)." Ohhh I get what you mean now. There's a big issue with feminism excluding trans women. Feminism should be inclusive and I strongly disagree with her opinions. But like you said she is entitled to them just like the students are entitled to protest against her. From what I've read though Cardiff uni won't be cancelling her. | |||
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" Germaine Greer is correct in her opinion that the operation does not make a transgender "male" female. That is a straightforward biological fact. "If a man...is gender re-assigned...outwardly, and he feels inwardly is a woman, in your view can he be a woman or not?" "No." That was what she said on Newsnight last night. I interpret that as, no matter what a transgender person does, they can never "be" the gender they feel they are. Yes she's entitled to that opinion, but my opinion is she should have kept it to herself." For someone who is very famous for fighting for a section of society's rights and equality, ..I think it's sad that her negative comments on the transgender community go against that premise. How do you fight for one, but seemingly bash another? Or does she see this as another way that 'men' are damaging feminism? If you are a campaigner, your views are more widely listened to. Therefore in this case I think it would be wise to keep ya gob shut and not pass comments on things she knows nothing about and don't directly affect her! | |||
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" For someone who is very famous for fighting for a section of society's rights and equality, ..I think it's sad that her negative comments on the transgender community go against that premise. How do you fight for one, but seemingly bash another? Or does she see this as another way that 'men' are damaging feminism? If you are a campaigner, your views are more widely listened to. Therefore in this case I think it would be wise to keep ya gob shut and not pass comments on things she knows nothing about and don't directly affect her!" What makes you think she knows nothing about it. From what she says she has a good insight into it for example she knows of at least two "men" who still have problems despite having the re-assigment operations. You seem to be making unfounded assumptions | |||
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" For someone who is very famous for fighting for a section of society's rights and equality, ..I think it's sad that her negative comments on the transgender community go against that premise. How do you fight for one, but seemingly bash another? Or does she see this as another way that 'men' are damaging feminism? If you are a campaigner, your views are more widely listened to. Therefore in this case I think it would be wise to keep ya gob shut and not pass comments on things she knows nothing about and don't directly affect her! What makes you think she knows nothing about it. From what she says she has a good insight into it for example she knows of at least two "men" who still have problems despite having the re-assigment operations. You seem to be making unfounded assumptions" To know two cancer patients for whom the cancer treatment did not work, out of the millions for whom the treatment did work, does not make someone an oncologist Even knowing a thousand cancer patients for who a treatment did not work, would not make one an oncologist. It would make that person an idiot if it then started spouting advice on cancer treatment but not an oncologist This issue is best left to people with the education, knowledge, skills and experience of finding the cause and inventing treatments for this issue; endocrinologist, neuroscientists, surgeons | |||
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"Daft old bint. Is she suggesting that to be a woman you have to be born with a uterus? What about the women who are unfortunate enough to be born without one? Are they not proper women either? Of course transgender people may look and behave differently to those born with normal gender identity but I doubt any of the rest of us can have any idea of what it's like to go through what they do. If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it is a duck. Not that I'm suggesting I'm into ducks or anything..." How about if it just walks like a duck but quacks like a drake? | |||
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"She's entitled to a view. There's absolutely no scientific 'fact' here so we're left with opinion. You can agree with her, disagree with her or even be offended by her. But, if she is vilified to the point of being unable to express a perfectly valid point I think that's a shame. As much good comes from people expressing views you don't agree with as those you do. " this | |||
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" No she didn't suggest that. You just said it. So how do you interpret what she said? Born with a female brain but the wrong body - not a woman and never can be? She may be entitled to her opinion but I am equally entitled to call it daft. If such a person goes through all the things they have to do to try and make their appearance match the gender they identify with, the hormones, the surgery, etc etc, for someone in the public eye to come along and tell them "Nope, still a man sorry" must be incredibly hurtful and therefore deserves to be villified." Explain a 'female brain' please.  | |||
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" No she didn't suggest that. You just said it. So how do you interpret what she said? Born with a female brain but the wrong body - not a woman and never can be? She may be entitled to her opinion but I am equally entitled to call it daft. If such a person goes through all the things they have to do to try and make their appearance match the gender they identify with, the hormones, the surgery, etc etc, for someone in the public eye to come along and tell them "Nope, still a man sorry" must be incredibly hurtful and therefore deserves to be villified. Explain a 'female brain' please. "There are physiological differences between male and female brains. Iirc there was some studies using mri and fmri scans that showed that gay male brains resembled some features of a female brain more closely than the average male brain | |||
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"Well she's spent a large part of her life trying to separate men and women as enemies so it would kinda fuck her world view if she had to accept were all just people and not two oposite sides. " I know that you know that men and women aren't enemies and are just stating what you think this person's motives may have been Feminsm wasn't about creating lesbian dykes; it was about empowering a marginalised section of society (a very large section of society) to be viewed and treated as equals. That effort still continues, albeit, not so 'agressively' now as we start to approach equality I consider myself a feminist as I struggle in a world where I still have to work harder than my male colleagues. I don't blame them; I blame the centuries of indoctrination. That is what I try to dismantle by my actions at work | |||
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" No she didn't suggest that. You just said it. So how do you interpret what she said? Born with a female brain but the wrong body - not a woman and never can be? She may be entitled to her opinion but I am equally entitled to call it daft. If such a person goes through all the things they have to do to try and make their appearance match the gender they identify with, the hormones, the surgery, etc etc, for someone in the public eye to come along and tell them "Nope, still a man sorry" must be incredibly hurtful and therefore deserves to be vilified." I guess that depends what you want to achieve. If you just want to shut everyone up who has a different point of view to yours then I guess vilification is probably the way to go. They and others will still think the same and you will have achieved nothing. If, on the other hand, you want to persuade and educate people, to try and help them understand the issues and maybe even change their point of view, then I would suggest that you engage with them, challenge their statements and tell them and others why their statements, argument and assumptions are wrong. You might even persuade them to change their minds. | |||
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"She's become a bit more of a loud mouthed cow of late and seemingly more intolerant. That may be fine but having some sensitivity for people who are known to have faced difficulties, and have higher than average suicide rates would be a much better thing to be recognised for, than spouting what I consider to be intolerant bollocks. It's female students at the university that she's due to attend that have complained, and don't want her there. I think they're right to complain and to ask that their university does not invite her - they will be paying for her attendance after all. Sometimes if things don't really affect your life, it is the intelligent thing to do to keep your big mouth shut. Transgender people haven't been asking her for comment or support, and - as far as I know - she's not looking for or experiencing transgender needs or issues herself. It would be empathetic to say nothing, rather than things that are likely to demean others. She's become another rent a gob, and is fond of any attention. Her university went against her wishes and recruited transgender women, and so I guess she has an axe to grind. The tyranny of the masses is a very powerful force that overwhelms those of us in minority groups. The university would be certainly wise to retain its respect for its minority students, as well as all those students there who do not wish to have her on campus." Well put but I'm not sure that all you're really saying is 'if I agree with what you say you're free to say it but if I don't then you've not'. My personal belief is that if you want to think of yourself as a man or a woman then that is what you are regardless of what you were born as but that is definitely not a universal point of view, probably not a majority point of view even on this site judging from some previous threads. The argument still needs to be made and won. You won't do that by shutting down any debate or discussion on the issues. | |||
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" No she didn't suggest that. You just said it. So how do you interpret what she said? Born with a female brain but the wrong body - not a woman and never can be? She may be entitled to her opinion but I am equally entitled to call it daft. If such a person goes through all the things they have to do to try and make their appearance match the gender they identify with, the hormones, the surgery, etc etc, for someone in the public eye to come along and tell them "Nope, still a man sorry" must be incredibly hurtful and therefore deserves to be villified. Explain a 'female brain' please.
There are physiological differences between male and female brains.
Iirc there was some studies using mri and fmri scans that showed that gay male brains resembled some features of a female brain more closely than the average male brain"I just googled this and perhaps the search result brought up a different link to the one you refer to The scans were not infact scans; these were tissue samples taken from the dead. The comparions made were between: cis-males cis-females trans-females trans-males trans-females who have not taken hormones trans-males who have not taken hormones gay-males gay-females The study concluded that the trans-male brain resembled that of a cis-male, irrespective of whether the trans-male had taken hormones or not. However, the brain of a gay-female did not resemble that of a trans-male or cis-male; it still resembled that of a cis-female The study also concluded that a larger sample (the one taken was under a 100 cases) needs to be obtained and MRI technology needs to be much further advanced to be able to continue with this scientific research on the living As a feminst, I accept sound scientific research over and above the musings or opinions of some reporter. And this applies to any issue in the universe (except where religion is concerned and then I am stumped  ) | |||
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"Well she's spent a large part of her life trying to separate men and women as enemies so it would kinda fuck her world view if she had to accept were all just people and not two oposite sides. I know that you know that men and women aren't enemies and are just stating what you think this person's motives may have been Feminsm wasn't about creating lesbian dykes; it was about empowering a marginalised section of society (a very large section of society) to be viewed and treated as equals. That effort still continues, albeit, not so 'agressively' now as we start to approach equality I consider myself a feminist as I struggle in a world where I still have to work harder than my male colleagues. I don't blame them; I blame the centuries of indoctrination. That is what I try to dismantle by my actions at work" .for a lot of new wave feminists it is about us vs them though. They missed out on the big war and are now the bored soldiers on guard duty while everything is tidied up itching for a fight over the most petty things. For these people the idea that one could "change sides" is as abhorant as the thought of a black man being able to make himself white to a KKK member. One things that's interesting is your last point about having to work harder in my experience women in my place of work (especially when teaining) get everything handed to them and all the perks for zero effort simply because as an engineering firm we have so few female applicants for shop floor work they like to make a big deal about it when they get some. Lots of evenings out with the politicians and upper management whenever there's a "women in the workplace" kind of event always the ones picked for schemes and challenges and extra courses. I accept that they don't ask for it but it lead to them getting opertunities that much more deserving candidates didn't purely because of their genitals. Most of it was wasted effort though I think nearly all of my intakes girls have left now. Seems not that many women want to be doing physical labour/they thought it would be easier. | |||
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"She's become a bit more of a loud mouthed cow of late and seemingly more intolerant. That may be fine but having some sensitivity for people who are known to have faced difficulties, and have higher than average suicide rates would be a much better thing to be recognised for, than spouting what I consider to be intolerant bollocks. It's female students at the university that she's due to attend that have complained, and don't want her there. I think they're right to complain and to ask that their university does not invite her - they will be paying for her attendance after all. Sometimes if things don't really affect your life, it is the intelligent thing to do to keep your big mouth shut. Transgender people haven't been asking her for comment or support, and - as far as I know - she's not looking for or experiencing transgender needs or issues herself. It would be empathetic to say nothing, rather than things that are likely to demean others. She's become another rent a gob, and is fond of any attention. Her university went against her wishes and recruited transgender women, and so I guess she has an axe to grind. The tyranny of the masses is a very powerful force that overwhelms those of us in minority groups. The university would be certainly wise to retain its respect for its minority students, as well as all those students there who do not wish to have her on campus. Well put but I'm not sure that all you're really saying is 'if I agree with what you say you're free to say it but if I don't then you've not'. My personal belief is that if you want to think of yourself as a man or a woman then that is what you are regardless of what you were born as but that is definitely not a universal point of view, probably not a majority point of view even on this site judging from some previous threads. The argument still needs to be made and won. You won't do that by shutting down any debate or discussion on the issues." That's how it works in student politics I'm afraid. Don't like something the tiny minority of students actually involved with the union shut it down. Same thing happened with ukip/bnp/god knows how many other political groups when I was at uni. | |||
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" No she didn't suggest that. You just said it. So how do you interpret what she said? Born with a female brain but the wrong body - not a woman and never can be? She may be entitled to her opinion but I am equally entitled to call it daft. If such a person goes through all the things they have to do to try and make their appearance match the gender they identify with, the hormones, the surgery, etc etc, for someone in the public eye to come along and tell them "Nope, still a man sorry" must be incredibly hurtful and therefore deserves to be vilified. I guess that depends what you want to achieve. If you just want to shut everyone up who has a different point of view to yours then I guess vilification is probably the way to go. They and others will still think the same and you will have achieved nothing. If, on the other hand, you want to persuade and educate people, to try and help them understand the issues and maybe even change their point of view, then I would suggest that you engage with them, challenge their statements and tell them and others why their statements, argument and assumptions are wrong. You might even persuade them to change their minds." Couldn't agree with you more Professor Hawkins advanced the cause of religion more than any Pope could have done. It was an argument out in the open and everyone could then see that neither was the absolute truth However, that was slightly different as neither were offering tested scientific facts; both were merely putting forward opinions In this case, this person should be allowed to offer their opinion and that will have to be weighed against scientific facts. If nothing else then this person is brave; an idiot perhaps, but a brave idiot | |||
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"... I know that you know that men and women aren't enemies and are just stating what you think this person's motives may have been Feminsm wasn't about creating lesbian dykes; it was about empowering a marginalised section of society (a very large section of society) to be viewed and treated as equals. That effort still continues, albeit, not so 'agressively' now as we start to approach equality I consider myself a feminist as I struggle in a world where I still have to work harder than my male colleagues. I don't blame them; I blame the centuries of indoctrination. That is what I try to dismantle by my actions at work .for a lot of new wave feminists it is about us vs them though. They missed out on the big war and are now the bored soldiers on guard duty while everything is tidied up itching for a fight over the most petty things. For these people the idea that one could "change sides" is as abhorant as the thought of a black man being able to make himself white to a KKK member. One things that's interesting is your last point about having to work harder in my experience women in my place of work (especially when teaining) get everything handed to them and all the perks for zero effort simply because as an engineering firm we have so few female applicants for shop floor work they like to make a big deal about it when they get some. Lots of evenings out with the politicians and upper management whenever there's a "women in the workplace" kind of event always the ones picked for schemes and challenges and extra courses. I accept that they don't ask for it but it lead to them getting opertunities that much more deserving candidates didn't purely because of their genitals. Most of it was wasted effort though I think nearly all of my intakes girls have left now. Seems not that many women want to be doing physical labour/they thought it would be easier. " I am not going to cross swords with you on this one as your experiences are as real as mine are I have never worked in an environment where any physical labour was involved (apart from when working as a child on the family farm) and therefore cannot comment However, I agree with you that the token woman, the token Black person, the token disabled person do exist in the organisations I have worked in and yes, what you say does happen. But for the vast majority of us, away from the limelight, the reality is much different I was recently involved in an equality workshop at work. I was told by another woman heading that workshop that I am being paranoid when bringing up the topic of the gender pay-gap as the CEO is female Well, the CEO could either have been male or female. The last one was male. But senior management is 70%+ male Not suggesting that token females should be employed in that strata to make the numbers look good. Was merely stating that even amongst senior management, the 30% of the women were on lower salary grades | |||
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"The really sad thing about this thread is that far more time is being spent arguing about whether she should have said what she said rather than on the rights and wrongs of what she said. ["]I wish someone would make the argument of why what she said is wrong.["] By that I mean more than just saying that what she said has upset or offended them." opinion vs scientific fact | |||
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"The really sad thing about this thread is that far more time is being spent arguing about whether she should have said what she said rather than on the rights and wrongs of what she said. I wish someone would make the argument of why what she said is wrong. By that I mean more than just saying that what she said has upset or offended them." Personally I can't make that argument as I have no strong opinions fore or against. I am mainly coming from a live and let live attitude. A woman campaigning against women bashing, shouldn't be bashing any other group in my opinion. She should know better. | |||
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"I understand that its possible. I just dont understand the dressing up like a drag queen bit. Even women dont do that and they're, well, women! " The issue gets confusing because many entities, such as this website, lump transexuals in with transvestites which is not the same thing at all. | |||
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"I understand that its possible. I just dont understand the dressing up like a drag queen bit. Even women dont do that and they're, well, women! " Not quite up-to-date with the latest in fashion and fetishes but aren't drag-queens only homosexual men who present a caricature of women? | |||
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"I understand that its possible. I just dont understand the dressing up like a drag queen bit. Even women dont do that and they're, well, women! Not quite up-to-date with the latest in fashion and fetishes but aren't drag-queens only homosexual men who present a caricature of women?" They don't have to be gay | |||
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"I understand that its possible. I just dont understand the dressing up like a drag queen bit. Even women dont do that and they're, well, women! Not quite up-to-date with the latest in fashion and fetishes but aren't drag-queens only homosexual men who present a caricature of women? They don't have to be gay" Correct another myth that only gay men play drag queens. | |||
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"I understand that its possible. I just dont understand the dressing up like a drag queen bit. Even women dont do that and they're, well, women! Not quite up-to-date with the latest in fashion and fetishes but aren't drag-queens only homosexual men who present a caricature of women? They don't have to be gay Correct another myth that only gay men play drag queens." I wasn't talking about pantomime shows or 'dares' but am happy to be corrected on this one | |||
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"I understand that its possible. I just dont understand the dressing up like a drag queen bit. Even women dont do that and they're, well, women! " Erm I do. It's my job. And have you not been to Essex? As for Greer, her opinion is just that, an opinion. She's the Katie Hopkins of gender politics. I completely disagree with her and find her words potentially damaging but it gets people talking and keeps trans issues in the public eye. | |||
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" No she didn't suggest that. You just said it. So how do you interpret what she said? Born with a female brain but the wrong body - not a woman and never can be? She may be entitled to her opinion but I am equally entitled to call it daft. If such a person goes through all the things they have to do to try and make their appearance match the gender they identify with, the hormones, the surgery, etc etc, for someone in the public eye to come along and tell them "Nope, still a man sorry" must be incredibly hurtful and therefore deserves to be villified." It didn't need interpreting. She said clearly what she meant. No ambiguity. No one deserves to be vilified for offering their opinion. You're bigotry, hatred and bile colour your judgement and renders what you say devoid of logic. She judged no one. | |||
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"I understand that its possible. I just dont understand the dressing up like a drag queen bit. Even women dont do that and they're, well, women! Not quite up-to-date with the latest in fashion and fetishes but aren't drag-queens only homosexual men who present a caricature of women? They don't have to be gay" Indeed they don't. Eddie Izzard is a notable example | |||
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"I understand that its possible. I just dont understand the dressing up like a drag queen bit. Even women dont do that and they're, well, women! Not quite up-to-date with the latest in fashion and fetishes but aren't drag-queens only homosexual men who present a caricature of women? They don't have to be gay Correct another myth that only gay men play drag queens." Correct. The mainstream still typically sees drag as a man in a dress. Not so, things have progressed and moved on. I'm a bio female, performing as a drag queen for past 12 years (and winner of Best Drag Act at London Cabaret Awards 2015..must be doing something right). There are now drag queens with beards, non gender specific people cross dressing and most interesting of all, transgender women and men, dragging up for fun and entertainment. Now that's progress!!! | |||
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"I understand that its possible. I just dont understand the dressing up like a drag queen bit. Even women dont do that and they're, well, women! Not quite up-to-date with the latest in fashion and fetishes but aren't drag-queens only homosexual men who present a caricature of women? They don't have to be gay Indeed they don't. Eddie Izzard is a notable example " Eddie is a transvestite. Action transvestite  | |||
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"Eddie is a transvestite. Action transvestite "*Executive* transvestite | |||
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"The really sad thing about this thread is that far more time is being spent arguing about whether she should have said what she said rather than on the rights and wrongs of what she said. I wish someone would make the argument of why what she said is wrong. By that I mean more than just saying that what she said has upset or offended them." Okay, all Transgender people, MtF or FtM at some point must change their name by Deedpol, upon doing this they are regarded in Law as Female (MtF) or Male (FtM) and also protected by Law as such. So, to refer to a Transgender female as a male, or NOT female, is actually Transphobic and can quite easily be construed as a hate crime. Get the right lawyer and Police officer on side and Ms Greer could find herself under investigation or in court, though because of the 'high profile' of Ms Greer it would take a brave police force to get anything into court. If someone not in the public eye were to mirror Ms Greer's comments, they would most likely be hit with a caution from the Police as a starting point. | |||
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"Eddie is a transvestite. Action transvestite
*Executive* transvestite"He's called himself both but yes | |||
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" For someone who is very famous for fighting for a section of society's rights and equality, ..I think it's sad that her negative comments on the transgender community go against that premise. How do you fight for one, but seemingly bash another? Or does she see this as another way that 'men' are damaging feminism? If you are a campaigner, your views are more widely listened to. Therefore in this case I think it would be wise to keep ya gob shut and not pass comments on things she knows nothing about and don't directly affect her! What makes you think she knows nothing about it. From what she says she has a good insight into it for example she knows of at least two "men" who still have problems despite having the re-assigment operations. You seem to be making unfounded assumptions To know two cancer patients for whom the cancer treatment did not work, out of the millions for whom the treatment did work, does not make someone an oncologist Even knowing a thousand cancer patients for who a treatment did not work, would not make one an oncologist. It would make that person an idiot if it then started spouting advice on cancer treatment but not an oncologist This issue is best left to people with the education, knowledge, skills and experience of finding the cause and inventing treatments for this issue; endocrinologist, neuroscientists, surgeons" Not saying it does but she obviously has some knowledge of the subject and people in that situation. She was asked to give her opinion and so she did, all perfectly reasonable | |||
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"The really sad thing about this thread is that far more time is being spent arguing about whether she should have said what she said rather than on the rights and wrongs of what she said. I wish someone would make the argument of why what she said is wrong. By that I mean more than just saying that what she said has upset or offended them. Okay, all Transgender people, MtF or FtM at some point must change their name by Deedpol, upon doing this they are regarded in Law as Female (MtF) or Male (FtM) and also protected by Law as such. So, to refer to a Transgender female as a male, or NOT female, is actually Transphobic and can quite easily be construed as a hate crime. Get the right lawyer and Police officer on side and Ms Greer could find herself under investigation or in court, though because of the 'high profile' of Ms Greer it would take a brave police force to get anything into court. If someone not in the public eye were to mirror Ms Greer's comments, they would most likely be hit with a caution from the Police as a starting point." But its already been stated that she refers to them by their chosen sex unless I'm getting it wrong. | |||
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" So, to refer to a Transgender female as a male, or NOT female, is actually Transphobic and can quite easily be construed as a hate crime. " But, Greer said she'd address a trans person they way wished to be addressed... Forgive me but I'm sure how these actions could easily be construed as a hate crime.. | |||
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"I understand that its possible. I just dont understand the dressing up like a drag queen bit. Even women dont do that and they're, well, women! Erm I do. It's my job. And have you not been to Essex? As for Greer, her opinion is just that, an opinion. She's the Katie Hopkins of gender politics. I completely disagree with her and find her words potentially damaging but it gets people talking and keeps trans issues in the public eye." | |||
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" For someone who is very famous for fighting for a section of society's rights and equality, ..I think it's sad that her negative comments on the transgender community go against that premise. How do you fight for one, but seemingly bash another? Or does she see this as another way that 'men' are damaging feminism? If you are a campaigner, your views are more widely listened to. Therefore in this case I think it would be wise to keep ya gob shut and not pass comments on things she knows nothing about and don't directly affect her! What makes you think she knows nothing about it. From what she says she has a good insight into it for example she knows of at least two "men" who still have problems despite having the re-assigment operations. You seem to be making unfounded assumptions To know two cancer patients for whom the cancer treatment did not work, out of the millions for whom the treatment did work, does not make someone an oncologist Even knowing a thousand cancer patients for who a treatment did not work, would not make one an oncologist. It would make that person an idiot if it then started spouting advice on cancer treatment but not an oncologist This issue is best left to people with the education, knowledge, skills and experience of finding the cause and inventing treatments for this issue; endocrinologist, neuroscientists, surgeons Not saying it does but she obviously has some knowledge of the subject and people in that situation. She was asked to give her opinion and so she did, all perfectly reasonable" She has the the same knowledge (if it can be called knowledge) on this issue as you do or I do or anyone else on this website does Unless there is a published endocrinologist, neuroscientist and surgeon with qualifications in this area of medicine on this site, our opinions, at best, are of no significance and at worst, could do a lot of damage. I leave complicated issues like these to experts educated in this area. I can only accept the hard and cold facts which are evidenced by years of scientific and medical research by the best qualified minds in this area But like I said, this person should be allowed to speak as just the one question, "what are your qualification in this area of science and medicine" would show them up the fool that they are I would keep my mouth shut if my only claim to fame was that I knew two people for whom this procedure did not work out of the tens of thousands for whom it did | |||
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" So, to refer to a Transgender female as a male, or NOT female, is actually Transphobic and can quite easily be construed as a hate crime. But, Greer said she'd address a trans person they way wished to be addressed... Forgive me but I'm sure how these actions could easily be construed as a hate crime.." Ms Greer repeatedly states other the past year that Trans women are NOT women, they are STILL MEN, - This alone is enough. | |||
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" i find it ludicrous this woman believes that people decide to change sex for attention :/" Well said! | |||
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"Ms Greer repeatedly states other the past year that Trans women are NOT women, they are STILL MEN, - This alone is enough." this is a view she's expressed for several decades now. there's lists of outbursts made by her with regard to this subject, mostly coinciding with the release of books, comencements of public speaking tours and comencements of journalistic residencies as a columnist for various newspapers etc. | |||
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"Next time I want to really understand cold fusion I will ask the bloke who stacks shelves in the local supermarket for his 'opinions' and 'views' Why be bothered to spend time reading the research of a particle physicist. That may actually accidentally teach me something factual about cold fusion "You may as well as from previous posts you obviously jump to conclusions without knowing what research a specific person has done or what knowledge of the subject they posses | |||
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"Next time I want to really understand cold fusion I will ask the bloke who stacks shelves in the local supermarket for his 'opinions' and 'views' Why be bothered to spend time reading the research of a particle physicist. That may actually accidentally teach me something factual about cold fusion
You may as well as from previous posts you obviously jump to conclusions without knowing what research a specific person has done or what knowledge of the subject they posses"I haven't read a single piece of scientific research even started by this person. Since you obviously have, perhaps you can enlighten me and others here and provide some citations whilst you are at it | |||
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"Ms Greer is one of those people who is worth listening to because she makes you challenge your views. I often strongly disagree with what she says but she certainly makes me think about why i hold the views I do. We need people like her." | |||
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"The really sad thing about this thread is that far more time is being spent arguing about whether she should have said what she said rather than on the rights and wrongs of what she said. I wish someone would make the argument of why what she said is wrong. By that I mean more than just saying that what she said has upset or offended them. Okay, all Transgender people, MtF or FtM at some point must change their name by Deedpol, upon doing this they are regarded in Law as Female (MtF) or Male (FtM) and also protected by Law as such. So, to refer to a Transgender female as a male, or NOT female, is actually Transphobic and can quite easily be construed as a hate crime. Get the right lawyer and Police officer on side and Ms Greer could find herself under investigation or in court, though because of the 'high profile' of Ms Greer it would take a brave police force to get anything into court. If someone not in the public eye were to mirror Ms Greer's comments, they would most likely be hit with a caution from the Police as a starting point." I think you'd have a lot of trouble convincing a court to convict someone for calling a man a woman or a woman a man of any crime let alone a hate crime. If the person concerned is transgender then even less so. I sometime think that people on this site simply don't live in the real world. The reality is is that if you asked the average person in the street if it was wrong to think of a person who was born a man still a man even if they had changed their gender assignment by some legal means, a large amount, possibly even the majority, would say it's not wrong. Threatening such people with criminal proceedings won't change their minds. | |||
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"Next time I want to really understand cold fusion I will ask the bloke who stacks shelves in the local supermarket for his 'opinions' and 'views' Why be bothered to spend time reading the research of a particle physicist. That may actually accidentally teach me something factual about cold fusion
You may as well as from previous posts you obviously jump to conclusions without knowing what research a specific person has done or what knowledge of the subject they posses
I haven't read a single piece of scientific research even started by this person. Since you obviously have, perhaps you can enlighten me and others here and provide some citations whilst you are at it"Again you make assumptions. I didn't say she had written any scientific research papers. It is you who is saying she has no knowledge of the subject. People can be knowledgable or even an expert on a subject whitout writing about it. What proof of her lack of knowledge do you have? | |||
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"Next time I want to really understand cold fusion I will ask the bloke who stacks shelves in the local supermarket for his 'opinions' and 'views' Why be bothered to spend time reading the research of a particle physicist. That may actually accidentally teach me something factual about cold fusion
You may as well as from previous posts you obviously jump to conclusions without knowing what research a specific person has done or what knowledge of the subject they posses
I haven't read a single piece of scientific research even started by this person. Since you obviously have, perhaps you can enlighten me and others here and provide some citations whilst you are at it
Again you make assumptions.
I didn't say she had written any scientific research papers. It is you who is saying she has no knowledge of the subject.
People can be knowledgable or even an expert on a subject whitout writing about it.
What proof of her lack of knowledge do you have?"Proof of a lack of something. That's quite a high bar to expect from anyone. | |||
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"Next time I want to really understand cold fusion I will ask the bloke who stacks shelves in the local supermarket for his 'opinions' and 'views' Why be bothered to spend time reading the research of a particle physicist. That may actually accidentally teach me something factual about cold fusion
You may as well as from previous posts you obviously jump to conclusions without knowing what research a specific person has done or what knowledge of the subject they posses
I haven't read a single piece of scientific research even started by this person. Since you obviously have, perhaps you can enlighten me and others here and provide some citations whilst you are at it
Again you make assumptions.
I didn't say she had written any scientific research papers. It is you who is saying she has no knowledge of the subject.
People can be knowledgable or even an expert on a subject whitout writing about it.
What proof of her lack of knowledge do you have?"What knowledge are you talking about? The fact that this person knows of two people for whom this procedure failed? That is what you said She has no qualifications whatsoever in endocrinology, neuroscience or micro-surgery. She has opinions and views just as I do and just as you do and just like everyone in the world does View and opinions are fine but those are not scientific facts based on hard evidence. I suspect that you do not have any evidence to scientific facts to support your views whereas my views are supported by a lot of recent scientific research That is why I think that it should be allowed to speak as there is nothing useful it can add to the sum of scientific knowledge on this subject matter. Then it can shut up as everyone can hear what is said, which is a whole load of nothing | |||
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" So, to refer to a Transgender female as a male, or NOT female, is actually Transphobic and can quite easily be construed as a hate crime. But, Greer said she'd address a trans person they way wished to be addressed... Forgive me but I'm sure how these actions could easily be construed as a hate crime.. Ms Greer repeatedly states other the past year that Trans women are NOT women, they are STILL MEN, - This alone is enough." She also stated - despite her beliefs, she'd still address a trans person using their preferred identity.... So the hate crime is the personal belief she holds...? | |||
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" So, to refer to a Transgender female as a male, or NOT female, is actually Transphobic and can quite easily be construed as a hate crime. But, Greer said she'd address a trans person they way wished to be addressed... Forgive me but I'm sure how these actions could easily be construed as a hate crime.. Ms Greer repeatedly states other the past year that Trans women are NOT women, they are STILL MEN, - This alone is enough. She also stated - despite her beliefs, she'd still address a trans person using their preferred identity.... So the hate crime is the personal belief she holds...?" What if it held the personal view that non-White people were not as intelligent as White people even when scientific evidence proves otherwise. And then it went on to air this personal view / belief / opinion in public. Would that too not be a hate crime? | |||
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"Can we have the legal AND the scientific definitions of what makes a human female? I think, the trouble stems from the fact that these definitions are not the same. Greer is correct in her assertion that m to f post op transexuals are not female, from a chromosonal point of view. Legally, however,they are female and she herself will address them as such. She is stuck between a rock and a hard place. Some people are adamant that a tomatoe isn't a fruit, because of how it appears on a menu, but a scientist will tell you it is. " Atlast someone who makes an effort to rely on science rather than on abject stupidity or silly schoolboy jokes OK, so let us take this a piece at a time Neurologically a trans-female (m-to-f) is female and trans-man (f-to-m) is male. That is a proven scientific fact albeit, only three brain functions / structures were verified in three different studies Chromosomally, gender was determined until the 1950s by xy is male and xx is female. Then advances in genetic science discovered xxy and xyy chromosomes and turned xx and xy on its head. Now gender determination using base chromosomes was a flawed method And if that was not enough, endocrinology put a spanner in the works with the discovery of PAIS and in extreme cases, CAIS in xy phenotype. Now gender determination using chromosomes was about as relavant as the theory that the Earth was at the centre of the universe. Ofcourse, the jokey idiots still clung on to the 1950s facts just as the Catholic Church hung on to theirs So neurologically a trans-female is female and chromosomally, could be female or could be male with PAIS or CAIS or could be just male; you take your pick as I generally leave my DNA kit and electron microscope at home when meeting the human species Now comes the physiology and endocrinology; the micro-surgery ensures that the orginal gender hormones are no longer there and an endocrinologist is there to make certain that cross-gender hormones are introduced correctly. The effect of the cross-gender hormones is as irreversible as was the effect of the original-gender hormones. So that too is now done and dusted Now comes the anatomy. What on Earth do people think the highly invasive and dangerous micro-surgery is for. Certainly not for a 'boob'-job. OK, I guess this needs to be spelt out too for the jokey crowd. This consists of penectomy, labiaplasty (also used in cis-females), construction of a neoclitoris (also used in FGM patients), vaginoplasty (also used in cis-females to correct conditions such as a shallow vagina) Pity that I cannot post links to the hundreds of legitimate websites with access to published papers and research. Using an iPad is a pain and in any event, I think this site bans direct links. So please just Google to verify that what I have posted is not complete BS for there is plenty of BS spouted on this topic, married men, too many verifications displayed and therefore a slut and other such of my pet hate threads Oh, and the legality of all this gender malarky; although no doubt very important to these people, is not an absolute truth one way or the other as laws are simply a human construct and not a fact (apart from the fact that these laws exist) | |||
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"Can we have the legal AND the scientific definitions of what makes a human female? I think, the trouble stems from the fact that these definitions are not the same. Greer is correct in her assertion that m to f post op transexuals are not female, from a chromosonal point of view. Legally, however,they are female and she herself will address them as such. She is stuck between a rock and a hard place. Some people are adamant that a tomatoe isn't a fruit, because of how it appears on a menu, but a scientist will tell you it is. Atlast someone who makes an effort to rely on science rather than on abject stupidity or silly schoolboy jokes OK, so let us take this a piece at a time Neurologically a trans-female (m-to-f) is female and trans-man (f-to-m) is male. That is a proven scientific fact albeit, only three brain functions / structures were verified in three different studies Chromosomally, gender was determined until the 1950s by xy is male and xx is female. Then advances in genetic science discovered xxy and xyy chromosomes and turned xx and xy on its head. Now gender determination using base chromosomes was a flawed method And if that was not enough, endocrinology put a spanner in the works with the discovery of PAIS and in extreme cases, CAIS in xy phenotype. Now gender determination using chromosomes was about as relavant as the theory that the Earth was at the centre of the universe. Ofcourse, the jokey idiots still clung on to the 1950s facts just as the Catholic Church hung on to theirs So neurologically a trans-female is female and chromosomally, could be female or could be male with PAIS or CAIS or could be just male; you take your pick as I generally leave my DNA kit and electron microscope at home when meeting the human species Now comes the physiology and endocrinology; the micro-surgery ensures that the orginal gender hormones are no longer there and an endocrinologist is there to make certain that cross-gender hormones are introduced correctly. The effect of the cross-gender hormones is as irreversible as was the effect of the original-gender hormones. So that too is now done and dusted Now comes the anatomy. What on Earth do people think the highly invasive and dangerous micro-surgery is for. Certainly not for a 'boob'-job. OK, I guess this needs to be spelt out too for the jokey crowd. This consists of penectomy, labiaplasty (also used in cis-females), construction of a neoclitoris (also used in FGM patients), vaginoplasty (also used in cis-females to correct conditions such as a shallow vagina) Pity that I cannot post links to the hundreds of legitimate websites with access to published papers and research. Using an iPad is a pain and in any event, I think this site bans direct links. So please just Google to verify that what I have posted is not complete BS for there is plenty of BS spouted on this topic, married men, too many verifications displayed and therefore a slut and other such of my pet hate threads Oh, and the legality of all this gender malarky; although no doubt very important to these people, is not an absolute truth one way or the other as laws are simply a human construct and not a fact (apart from the fact that these laws exist)" Thank you. That answers a lot of questions. Personally I'm happy with the fact that the law says they are the men and women they wish to be, and law is (supposed to be anyway) a reflection of society. And I never put fruit in my spaghetti sauces! | |||
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"Moral of the story - It doesn't really matter what you think about all this, respect however someone identifies. Which I'm sure Greer mentions?" ah right yeah, do you mean the respect she showed in 1996 when she publicly opposed the appointment of a trans woman academic to a position within Newnham college (greer being an alumni), outing her in the process or do you mean like the time when she compared Trans women to rapists in her book titled "the whole woman" by writting such things as "When he forces his way into the few private spaces woman may enjoy and shouts down their objections, and bombards the women who will not accept him with hate mail, he does as rapists have always done." .... that kind of respect? | |||
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"She's entitled to a view. There's absolutely no scientific 'fact' here so we're left with opinion. You can agree with her, disagree with her or even be offended by her. But, if she is vilified to the point of being unable to express a perfectly valid point I think that's a shame. As much good comes from people expressing views you don't agree with as those you do. " Well said | |||
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" So, to refer to a Transgender female as a male, or NOT female, is actually Transphobic and can quite easily be construed as a hate crime. But, Greer said she'd address a trans person they way wished to be addressed... Forgive me but I'm sure how these actions could easily be construed as a hate crime.. Ms Greer repeatedly states other the past year that Trans women are NOT women, they are STILL MEN, - This alone is enough. She also stated - despite her beliefs, she'd still address a trans person using their preferred identity.... So the hate crime is the personal belief she holds...? What if it held the personal view that non-White people were not as intelligent as White people even when scientific evidence proves otherwise. And then it went on to air this personal view / belief / opinion in public. Would that too not be a hate crime?" No, definitely not a hate crime for the reasons I've just give. Possibly hate speech but only if it was said to try and encourage racial hatred or could reasonably be considered as likely to cause racial hatred. | |||
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" So, to refer to a Transgender female as a male, or NOT female, is actually Transphobic and can quite easily be construed as a hate crime. But, Greer said she'd address a trans person they way wished to be addressed... Forgive me but I'm sure how these actions could easily be construed as a hate crime.. Ms Greer repeatedly states other the past year that Trans women are NOT women, they are STILL MEN, - This alone is enough. She also stated - despite her beliefs, she'd still address a trans person using their preferred identity.... So the hate crime is the personal belief she holds...? What if it held the personal view that non-White people were not as intelligent as White people even when scientific evidence proves otherwise. And then it went on to air this personal view / belief / opinion in public. Would that too not be a hate crime? No, definitely not a hate crime for the reasons I've just give. Possibly hate speech but only if it was said to try and encourage racial hatred or could reasonably be considered as likely to cause racial hatred." Damn; is anything a crime as far as you are concerned? I guess letting a good bottle of red go to waste must be a crime  | |||
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" So, to refer to a Transgender female as a male, or NOT female, is actually Transphobic and can quite easily be construed as a hate crime. But, Greer said she'd address a trans person they way wished to be addressed... Forgive me but I'm sure how these actions could easily be construed as a hate crime.. Ms Greer repeatedly states other the past year that Trans women are NOT women, they are STILL MEN, - This alone is enough. She also stated - despite her beliefs, she'd still address a trans person using their preferred identity.... So the hate crime is the personal belief she holds...? What if it held the personal view that non-White people were not as intelligent as White people even when scientific evidence proves otherwise. And then it went on to air this personal view / belief / opinion in public. Would that too not be a hate crime? No, definitely not a hate crime for the reasons I've just give. Possibly hate speech but only if it was said to try and encourage racial hatred or could reasonably be considered as likely to cause racial hatred. Damn; is anything a crime as far as you are concerned? I guess letting a good bottle of red go to waste must be a crime "I would class the example given (race) as stupid but I wouldn't call it a hate crime. I would challenge their viewpoint though. | |||
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" So, to refer to a Transgender female as a male, or NOT female, is actually Transphobic and can quite easily be construed as a hate crime. But, Greer said she'd address a trans person they way wished to be addressed... Forgive me but I'm sure how these actions could easily be construed as a hate crime.. Ms Greer repeatedly states other the past year that Trans women are NOT women, they are STILL MEN, - This alone is enough. She also stated - despite her beliefs, she'd still address a trans person using their preferred identity.... So the hate crime is the personal belief she holds...? What if it held the personal view that non-White people were not as intelligent as White people even when scientific evidence proves otherwise. And then it went on to air this personal view / belief / opinion in public. Would that too not be a hate crime? No, definitely not a hate crime for the reasons I've just give. Possibly hate speech but only if it was said to try and encourage racial hatred or could reasonably be considered as likely to cause racial hatred. Damn; is anything a crime as far as you are concerned? I guess letting a good bottle of red go to waste must be a crime
I would class the example given (race) as stupid but I wouldn't call it a hate crime. I would challenge their viewpoint though."It is actually a very, very good example as that was a very widely held view / opinion / belief in European societies around the 1930s-40s And I think 'Unleased' is correct that it wasn't a hate crime but if it happened today, it would be classified as hate speech as it demeans a section of society for no good reason but for the colour of their skin. Just as it could be hate speech name-calling a trans-man a woman or a trans-woman a man. Both the examples refer to immutable characteristics and not choices | |||
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" So, to refer to a Transgender female as a male, or NOT female, is actually Transphobic and can quite easily be construed as a hate crime. But, Greer said she'd address a trans person they way wished to be addressed... Forgive me but I'm sure how these actions could easily be construed as a hate crime.. Ms Greer repeatedly states other the past year that Trans women are NOT women, they are STILL MEN, - This alone is enough. She also stated - despite her beliefs, she'd still address a trans person using their preferred identity.... So the hate crime is the personal belief she holds...? What if it held the personal view that non-White people were not as intelligent as White people even when scientific evidence proves otherwise. And then it went on to air this personal view / belief / opinion in public. Would that too not be a hate crime? No, definitely not a hate crime for the reasons I've just give. Possibly hate speech but only if it was said to try and encourage racial hatred or could reasonably be considered as likely to cause racial hatred. Damn; is anything a crime as far as you are concerned? I guess letting a good bottle of red go to waste must be a crime
I would class the example given (race) as stupid but I wouldn't call it a hate crime. I would challenge their viewpoint though.
It is actually a very, very good example as that was a very widely held view / opinion / belief in European societies around the 1930s-40s
And I think 'Unleased' is correct that it wasn't a hate crime but if it happened today, it would be classified as hate speech as it demeans a section of society for no good reason but for the colour of their skin. Just as it could be hate speech name-calling a trans-man a woman or a trans-woman a man. Both the examples refer to immutable characteristics and not choices
"Sorry don't think I was clear. I meant that viewpoint I would class as stupid not the example. It is hate speech but not a hate crime. | |||
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" So, to refer to a Transgender female as a male, or NOT female, is actually Transphobic and can quite easily be construed as a hate crime. But, Greer said she'd address a trans person they way wished to be addressed... Forgive me but I'm sure how these actions could easily be construed as a hate crime.. Ms Greer repeatedly states other the past year that Trans women are NOT women, they are STILL MEN, - This alone is enough. She also stated - despite her beliefs, she'd still address a trans person using their preferred identity.... So the hate crime is the personal belief she holds...? What if it held the personal view that non-White people were not as intelligent as White people even when scientific evidence proves otherwise. And then it went on to air this personal view / belief / opinion in public. Would that too not be a hate crime? No, definitely not a hate crime for the reasons I've just give. Possibly hate speech but only if it was said to try and encourage racial hatred or could reasonably be considered as likely to cause racial hatred. Damn; is anything a crime as far as you are concerned? I guess letting a good bottle of red go to waste must be a crime
I would class the example given (race) as stupid but I wouldn't call it a hate crime. I would challenge their viewpoint though.
It is actually a very, very good example as that was a very widely held view / opinion / belief in European societies around the 1930s-40s
And I think 'Unleased' is correct that it wasn't a hate crime but if it happened today, it would be classified as hate speech as it demeans a section of society for no good reason but for the colour of their skin. Just as it could be hate speech name-calling a trans-man a woman or a trans-woman a man. Both the examples refer to immutable characteristics and not choices
Sorry don't think I was clear. I meant that viewpoint I would class as stupid not the example. It is hate speech but not a hate crime."I apologise; I misunderstood Yes, ofcourse it was a very stupid viewpoint. But there were plenty of stupid people around at that time who held such hateful views. The fact that people of all races are equally intelligent (or not; as proven by simple evidence such as academic achievements, etc) did not deter them from re-evaluating their view; it made them even angrier; unfortunately, that is the nature of hate | |||
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" So, to refer to a Transgender female as a male, or NOT female, is actually Transphobic and can quite easily be construed as a hate crime. But, Greer said she'd address a trans person they way wished to be addressed... Forgive me but I'm sure how these actions could easily be construed as a hate crime.. Ms Greer repeatedly states other the past year that Trans women are NOT women, they are STILL MEN, - This alone is enough. She also stated - despite her beliefs, she'd still address a trans person using their preferred identity.... So the hate crime is the personal belief she holds...? What if it held the personal view that non-White people were not as intelligent as White people even when scientific evidence proves otherwise. And then it went on to air this personal view / belief / opinion in public. Would that too not be a hate crime? No, definitely not a hate crime for the reasons I've just give. Possibly hate speech but only if it was said to try and encourage racial hatred or could reasonably be considered as likely to cause racial hatred. Damn; is anything a crime as far as you are concerned? I guess letting a good bottle of red go to waste must be a crime
I would class the example given (race) as stupid but I wouldn't call it a hate crime. I would challenge their viewpoint though.
It is actually a very, very good example as that was a very widely held view / opinion / belief in European societies around the 1930s-40s
And I think 'Unleased' is correct that it wasn't a hate crime but if it happened today, it would be classified as hate speech as it demeans a section of society for no good reason but for the colour of their skin. Just as it could be hate speech name-calling a trans-man a woman or a trans-woman a man. Both the examples refer to immutable characteristics and not choices
Sorry don't think I was clear. I meant that viewpoint I would class as stupid not the example. It is hate speech but not a hate crime.
I apologise; I misunderstood
Yes, ofcourse it was a very stupid viewpoint. But there were plenty of stupid people around at that time who held such hateful views. The fact that people of all races are equally intelligent (or not; as proven by simple evidence such as academic achievements, etc) did not deter them from re-evaluating their view; it made them even angrier; unfortunately, that is the nature of hate "As a child who grew up in a town with no non Caucasians and the abuse I got as a result I know first hand how it feels to be subjected to such hate unfortunately. | |||
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"It's very odd that Greer can say things like 'they don't look or behave like women'. As a feminist, she surely believes there is no set way women (or men) should behave, and that gender roles are largely created by society. " | |||
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" So, to refer to a Transgender female as a male, or NOT female, is actually Transphobic and can quite easily be construed as a hate crime. But, Greer said she'd address a trans person they way wished to be addressed... Forgive me but I'm sure how these actions could easily be construed as a hate crime.. Ms Greer repeatedly states other the past year that Trans women are NOT women, they are STILL MEN, - This alone is enough. She also stated - despite her beliefs, she'd still address a trans person using their preferred identity.... So the hate crime is the personal belief she holds...? What if it held the personal view that non-White people were not as intelligent as White people even when scientific evidence proves otherwise. And then it went on to air this personal view / belief / opinion in public. Would that too not be a hate crime? No, definitely not a hate crime for the reasons I've just give. Possibly hate speech but only if it was said to try and encourage racial hatred or could reasonably be considered as likely to cause racial hatred. Damn; is anything a crime as far as you are concerned? I guess letting a good bottle of red go to waste must be a crime
I would class the example given (race) as stupid but I wouldn't call it a hate crime. I would challenge their viewpoint though.
It is actually a very, very good example as that was a very widely held view / opinion / belief in European societies around the 1930s-40s
And I think 'Unleased' is correct that it wasn't a hate crime but if it happened today, it would be classified as hate speech as it demeans a section of society for no good reason but for the colour of their skin. Just as it could be hate speech name-calling a trans-man a woman or a trans-woman a man. Both the examples refer to immutable characteristics and not choices
"I think it's even more complicated than that. If the person called the transgender woman a man to deliberately cause offence then that could by itself be considered hate speech. If, on the other hand they said it because they thought she was a man then, even if it is offensive to the person being called a man, it's not necessarily hate speech. As for the average intelligence of different races. This is still a commonly held belief along with others such as white people being better swimmers, black people being better athletes, East Asians being better mathematicians and English people being better (than Americans) at English. Whether any or all of them is true or false or whether anyone believes any of them is not really relevant and totally irrelevant as far as the law is concerned. It only becomes relevant if someone was to say something along the lines of 'because black people are not as good swimmers as white people only white people should be allowed to join the Navy'. Then we are moving into the area of discrimination and the law would start to get involved. However, even then, it's not necessarily hate speech. To be hate speech it would have to more along the lines of 'All these black people joining our navy! What'd going on? We all know they can't bloody swim. They should be kicked out, made to pay back their wages and be sent to prison for stealing from the state'. That then has moved from a belief, through simple discrimination and is now inciting others to acts of discrimination. It's now hate speech. Whilst I don't agree with Ms. Geer she hasn't done anything like that. | |||
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V x | |||
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"I'd still do 'er
V x"Given the choice I think I'd rather do you.
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" So, to refer to a Transgender female as a male, or NOT female, is actually Transphobic and can quite easily be construed as a hate crime. But, Greer said she'd address a trans person they way wished to be addressed... Forgive me but I'm sure how these actions could easily be construed as a hate crime.. Ms Greer repeatedly states other the past year that Trans women are NOT women, they are STILL MEN, - This alone is enough. She also stated - despite her beliefs, she'd still address a trans person using their preferred identity.... So the hate crime is the personal belief she holds...? What if it held the personal view that non-White people were not as intelligent as White people even when scientific evidence proves otherwise. And then it went on to air this personal view / belief / opinion in public. Would that too not be a hate crime? No, definitely not a hate crime for the reasons I've just give. Possibly hate speech but only if it was said to try and encourage racial hatred or could reasonably be considered as likely to cause racial hatred. Damn; is anything a crime as far as you are concerned? I guess letting a good bottle of red go to waste must be a crime
I would class the example given (race) as stupid but I wouldn't call it a hate crime. I would challenge their viewpoint though.
It is actually a very, very good example as that was a very widely held view / opinion / belief in European societies around the 1930s-40s
And I think 'Unleased' is correct that it wasn't a hate crime but if it happened today, it would be classified as hate speech as it demeans a section of society for no good reason but for the colour of their skin. Just as it could be hate speech name-calling a trans-man a woman or a trans-woman a man. Both the examples refer to immutable characteristics and not choices
I think it's even more complicated than that. If the person called the transgender woman a man to deliberately cause offence then that could by itself be considered hate speech. If, on the other hand they said it because they thought she was a man then, even if it is offensive to the person being called a man, it's not necessarily hate speech.
As for the average intelligence of different races. This is still a commonly held belief along with others such as white people being better swimmers, black people being better athletes, East Asians being better mathematicians and English people being better (than Americans) at English.
Whether any or all of them is true or false or whether anyone believes any of them is not really relevant and totally irrelevant as far as the law is concerned. It only becomes relevant if someone was to say something along the lines of 'because black people are not as good swimmers as white people only white people should be allowed to join the Navy'. Then we are moving into the area of discrimination and the law would start to get involved. However, even then, it's not necessarily hate speech. To be hate speech it would have to more along the lines of 'All these black people joining our navy! What'd going on? We all know they can't bloody swim. They should be kicked out, made to pay back their wages and be sent to prison for stealing from the state'. That then has moved from a belief, through simple discrimination and is now inciting others to acts of discrimination. It's now hate speech.
Whilst I don't agree with Ms. Geer she hasn't done anything like that.
"Shame isn't it that so many 'protected categories' and laws are needed just so that we don't bash each other to death. And even then we find ways around it. Keeps the lawyers busy though  | |||
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