FabSwingers.com forum: Conservative government policy causes man to take his own life

By *dwalu2 OP Couple
over a year ago

Bristol

Anyone who doesn't seek to excuse the horrific effects of Tory policies on people less fortunate than themselves has known this for years, but for the first time a coroner has directly linked a 'fit for work' assessment to a man taking his own life.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/depressed-man-killed-himself-as-a-direct-result-of-dwps-fit-to-work-ruling-coroner-finds-10510305.html

'Michael O’Sullivan, a 60-year-old father from north London, hanged himself after his disability benefits were removed despite the opinion of three doctors that he was suffering from recurrent depression and certified as unable to work by his GP.'

There are no words.

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By *rightonsteveMan
over a year ago

Brighton - even Hove!

Unfortunate

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Anyone who doesn't seek to excuse the horrific effects of Tory policies on people less fortunate than themselves has known this for years, but for the first time a coroner has directly linked a 'fit for work' assessment to a man taking his own life.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/depressed-man-killed-himself-as-a-direct-result-of-dwps-fit-to-work-ruling-coroner-finds-10510305.html

There are no words."

Believe me it's only going to get worse. The facility I work in closes next week. All nursing and clinical staff are being made redundant despite the remnants being at very high risk (I've resuscitated one individual 5 times in the last month and another has been admitted to hospital 3 times for alcohol misuse in the last two weeks, his last BAC was 502mg/100ml which is considered a fatal amount!).

What provisions have the local authority and social services put in place for these people?

3hrs of non clinical 'support' a week. There's going to be a lot of innocent blood spilled before people realize what's happening.

I'm a conservative but I cannot support this government's decisions regarding the social care system, its absolutely abhorrent.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

This is awful. And you're right its only going to get worse. Damn Tory government.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

There's been an enquiry into the mnay suicides but the government refuse to publish the results.

http://www.theguardian.com/society/2014/dec/14/dwp-inquiries-benefit-claimant-suicides

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I heard a radio inter_iew with a man who was starving because he'd filled his Universal Jobmatch job search out wrong. He'd left off some of the things he had done not realising they had to be recorded. He was crying and embarrassed because he had to go to a food bank because all he had was a tin of spaghetti. Another man died of starvation. Have another glass of champagne to wash down your oysters Mr Cameron you've saved the country a couple of million by killing off the needy and poor.

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By *ouple in LancashireCouple
over a year ago

in Lancashire

that someone is making a profit in running these 'assessments' whilst some people with genuine needs and requirements to live with dignity are being targeted is repulsive and damning of us as a 'civilised society'..

no matter which party is in power..

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"There's been an enquiry into the mnay suicides but the government refuse to publish the results.

http://www.theguardian.com/society/2014/dec/14/dwp-inquiries-benefit-claimant-suicides"

Surprise surprise! Nothing this government does surprises me unfortunately

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By *isscheekychopsWoman
over a year ago

The land of grey peas and bacon

It's only going to get worse for the public sector no fucker is safe

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

We asked for it though. All those people banging on about scroungers on the dole pretending to be sick scrounging benefits. The Government acted because they heard our voices. I say our and we but I wasn't one of those people.

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By *dwalu2 OP Couple
over a year ago

Bristol

"We asked for it though. All those people banging on about scroungers on the dole pretending to be sick scrounging benefits. The Government acted because they heard our voices. I say our and we but I wasn't one of those people. "

Not quite right. The government created the illusion that there is a genuine issue with 'scroungers', so that gullible people would want them to do something about it.

You can blame people for being gullible, but it's the ideology of the Tories that takes advantage of that gullibility.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

These assessments have been going on for quite a few years now... And in some cases have helped people go back to work.

So not sure quite how it can fall to the new government when this first started a while ago.

I for one would stop all foreign aid till we help all the people already here first.

Like the fact all the services my severely Disabled daughter accesses all slowly being closed due to no funding x yet two new centres for refugees are opening. I'm not heartless just sick of services for those in need here being shut for those we are already aiding by sending billions to

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Sad as it is. How do you prove someone has depression or not. Whether they actually have a bad back etc. These things can and are faked. Maybe not to the levels that the media make out.

What's the solution? Just believe everyone? It's a crap situation whatever you try to do. And I doubt that any government will ever get it right.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Not forgetting the many who died after being found fit for work and had their money stopped, they didn't even commit suicide.

One guy won his appeal after death that i know of.

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By *dwalu2 OP Couple
over a year ago

Bristol

"Sad as it is. How do you prove someone has depression or not. Whether they actually have a bad back etc. These things can and are faked. Maybe not to the levels that the media make out.

What's the solution? Just believe everyone? It's a crap situation whatever you try to do. And I doubt that any government will ever get it right."

I think we can safely say that in this case, the opinions of three doctors and a GP should trump those of an assessment form filler. Clinicians are actually quite good at diagnosing illnesses.

There are no excuses, unless you think saving money is more important than saving lives. Which the Tories do, obviously.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Not quite right. The government created the illusion that there is a genuine issue with 'scroungers', so that gullible people would want them to do something about it.

You can blame people for being gullible, but it's the ideology of the Tories that takes advantage of that gullibility."

There are plenty of scroungers skimming the system but the assessments that have been carried out have targeted the wrong people. For instance my patients have all suffered seriously life altering brain injuries with zero chance of regaining full independence, yet they were assessed by someone with no knowledge of their condition who was unwilling to listen to our professional _iews. Those assessments have guaranteed at least two deaths in the next month and four more shortly after.

But hey, they're just disabled people, they're not as important as money, especially as much as £160 a week (that was LCC's contribution per person, per week to my facility, we even offered to cut it by 50% but that was still too much apparently).

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Sad as it is. How do you prove someone has depression or not. Whether they actually have a bad back etc. These things can and are faked. Maybe not to the levels that the media make out.

What's the solution? Just believe everyone? It's a crap situation whatever you try to do. And I doubt that any government will ever get it right.

I think we can safely say that in this case, the opinions of three doctors and a GP should trump those of an assessment form filler. Clinicians are actually quite good at diagnosing illnesses.

There are no excuses, unless you think saving money is more important than saving lives. Which the Tories do, obviously. "

Labour used the same people.

But yes none of them are medically qualified to diagnose anything.

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By *dwalu2 OP Couple
over a year ago

Bristol

Not quite right. The government created the illusion that there is a genuine issue with 'scroungers', so that gullible people would want them to do something about it.

You can blame people for being gullible, but it's the ideology of the Tories that takes advantage of that gullibility.

The number of people 'skimming the system' is a minuscule percentage of the people who require the system to be functional.

I am happy with that tiny percentage skimming the system, it's a problem that is so marginal it doesn't need solving. Especially when 'solving it' is just an excuse for an ideological attack on the state.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Sad as it is. How do you prove someone has depression or not. Whether they actually have a bad back etc. These things can and are faked. Maybe not to the levels that the media make out.

What's the solution? Just believe everyone? It's a crap situation whatever you try to do. And I doubt that any government will ever get it right."

How about we leave the diagnosing to doctors and not form fillers?

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By *ornynwcplCouple
over a year ago

Preston

And whilst scandals like this are going on, the government have formed an 'independent' committee to re_iew the FOI. This committee being made up of two former foreign secretaries who have already spoken out against it, and the head of an organisation who fall within the scope of the act, and again has spoken out against FOI.

So given they've already decided to scrap the FOI, looks like it will become even more impossible for journalists to uncover future scandals, like this, paedophile rings and expenses scandals.. Wonder what else they have to hide that they're desperately trying to hide from us?!

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Not quite right. The government created the illusion that there is a genuine issue with 'scroungers', so that gullible people would want them to do something about it.

You can blame people for being gullible, but it's the ideology of the Tories that takes advantage of that gullibility.

The number of people 'skimming the system' is a minuscule percentage of the people who require the system to be functional.

Me too.

The irony is they're putting more strain on the welfare state by closing these facilities. If I can't find a new job I'm going to have to start claiming benefits, along with my colleagues. I'm guessing that will come to more than they saved by pulling our funding!

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Sad as it is. How do you prove someone has depression or not. Whether they actually have a bad back etc. These things can and are faked. Maybe not to the levels that the media make out.

What's the solution? Just believe everyone? It's a crap situation whatever you try to do. And I doubt that any government will ever get it right.

I think we can safely say that in this case, the opinions of three doctors and a GP should trump those of an assessment form filler. Clinicians are actually quite good at diagnosing illnesses.

There are no excuses, unless you think saving money is more important than saving lives. Which the Tories do, obviously. "

Maybe not specifically for this case. Gps btw from my experience and discussions with others will freely dish out prescription drugs rather than actually get to root of the problem. I think not paying for someone to not work when they don't deserve it, so finding ways to give the money where it's needed and take from where it's not is a great idea. But as I said, I don't think any government will get it right. And by your lack of a solution yourself, it kind of backs up my point

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Cutting housing benefit caused the welfare bill to go up.

These people are not for austerity to save money, that's for certain.

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By *oo hotCouple
over a year ago

North West

Easy to throw stones and play the blame game when a government (any government) has to mange policies and not micro manage every case.

One solution is to give free money to everyone, no means testing, no fit for work testing, rely on honesty and everything will be fine. I dont think will think that this is the answer.

Neither is pointing out individual cases as proof that the current system is wrong.

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By *dwalu2 OP Couple
over a year ago

Bristol

Some people will always attempt to defend the indefensible, of course, in the name of saving money.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Always terrible to hear such a thing. What a world we live in.

However how would people solve the situation in relation to benefits and fitness to work?

Baring in mind the condition of services and funding in this country?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Sad as it is. How do you prove someone has depression or not. Whether they actually have a bad back etc. These things can and are faked. Maybe not to the levels that the media make out.

What's the solution? Just believe everyone? It's a crap situation whatever you try to do. And I doubt that any government will ever get it right.

How about we leave the diagnosing to doctors and not form fillers?"

Or people being paid to announce people fit for work so lie to be seen to be doing their jobs. Or they're incompetent people who see one thing and write another. Also having people at the jobcentres who know what a GP can and can't provide for a claimant.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

this is a bit long sorry.....

politics is not really my thing and to be honest I am sick to death of people whingeing about the Tory government.... who the fuck voted them in !!!! you lot did it was a landslide victory but all of a sudden we are all bloody LABOUR voters.

So now we have a government we don't want as we don't like their policies....

I agree with the statement that the professionals should be the ones that sign off on these life changing decisions not form fillers.

If you look back through every single government for the last 50 odd years there have always been policies that the public do not like.

As for scroungers well we all know people who work the system, I for one know at least half a dozen people who have been claiming benefit for over 20 years.

I know others who have been claiming sickness benefit for years as well, and they do that by claiming they are depressed and have suicidal thoughts.

I have no idea what the answer is there are people out there far more intelligent than me looking into this and they cant find a solution.

I once worked as a maintenance guy for letting agents and estate agents and would often have to go and repair damaged properties, I went to this one place in a not so nice part of Liverpool and had to re hang a front door as the occupier had kicked it off.... so there I was hanging this front door and the guy who was the tenant was sat on the stairs smoking a joint with a can of woodpecker cider telling me what an idiot I was for working, he wouldn't get out of bed for less than £350.00 a week as that was the least he was getting when he added all his benefits up.

I got £75.00 to hang the door and had to wait 30 days to get paid.

Not a rant not having a pop at anyone just a point of _iew which I am sure everyone else on here has similar tales.

Thanks

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Always terrible to hear such a thing. What a world we live in.

However how would people solve the situation in relation to benefits and fitness to work?

Baring in mind the condition of services and funding in this country?

I had a fitness for work assessment a few years ago. I couldn't get off the chair without help,bend down to pick something up or hold anything like a half full kettle to pour it. On my report it said I could do all of those. I didn't appeal,I went back to the Jobcentre and explained to them the things that made it difficult for me to do certain things. I was told to go to my doctor and get a letter with everything on it. Except GPs don't do assessments like that. After 6 months of normal job search which had me applying for jobs I could never do my doctor signed me off as not fit for work. So instead of having an assessment for work I could have done I was now signed off as not fit for work. It's very mentally tiring going around in circles. I was still applying for jobs but sadly with no experience and not being on jobseekers for long enough beforehand I wasn't allowed to go on certain schemes they have for the longer term unemployed. Add to that the amount of zero hour or 4-8 hour contracts on offer I can tell you the future looked bleak.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

My two lad are sixteen in a few years, then they will have to be assessed by ATOS, I will just let them tear their office apart because they can't cope with being in a small room with a stranger, then we'll see if they decide to do their Stasi like assessments in a way that suits peoples disabilities, hope something changes before then, future looks bleak from here.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Least we forget; if the primary aim of the fiscal policy is to save money then suicides are an effective way of achieving the reduction of ongoing costs.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

https://www.change.org/p/the-chancellor-of-the-exchequer-george-osborne-remove-the-subsidies-for-the-catering-services-in-the-house-of-lords

Interesting read, maybe sign it while there?

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By *nnyMan
over a year ago

Glasgow

"https://www.change.org/p/the-chancellor-of-the-exchequer-george-osborne-remove-the-subsidies-for-the-catering-services-in-the-house-of-lords

Interesting read, maybe sign it while there?"

Why just the Lords?

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By *ophieslutTV/TS
over a year ago

Central

I find their stance appalling, almost psychopathic, not looking after those amongst us who are least able to care for themselves etc. This government is very right wing at its core and some people are happy that it's this way - it says a lot about such people. But I'm sure some would trample over and submerge others to get out of a sinking ship.

This is not the mark of a civilised, decent society.

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By *ophieslutTV/TS
over a year ago

Central

"Least we forget; if the primary aim of the fiscal policy is to save money then suicides are an effective way of achieving the reduction of ongoing costs. "

I'm kind of thinking it's the wrong people that will be lost from amongst us.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I find their stance appalling, almost psychopathic, not looking after those amongst us who are least able to care for themselves etc. This government is very right wing at its core and some people are happy that it's this way - it says a lot about such people. But I'm sure some would trample over and submerge others to get out of a sinking ship.

This is not the mark of a civilised, decent society. "

100%

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

This is not the mark of a civilised, decent society. "

What they aren't doing also is helping the people who only need a little help and taking away help that people already have. Like the man who had his mobility money stopped after losing two legs because he could hobble on crutches 100 yards. I struggle with buses with two dodgy legs that still work.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Sad as it is. How do you prove someone has depression or not. Whether they actually have a bad back etc. These things can and are faked. Maybe not to the levels that the media make out.

What's the solution? Just believe everyone? It's a crap situation whatever you try to do. And I doubt that any government will ever get it right.

How about we leave the diagnosing to doctors and not form fillers?"

The assessment is about what your diagnosed with but what you can/can't do for yourself from basic hygiene needs to managing money. The assessment are carried out by health professionals and have very in depth "forms to fill". It is then the dwp who use these assessments to score the need and give a level of benefits accordingly.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Sad as it is. How do you prove someone has depression or not. Whether they actually have a bad back etc. These things can and are faked. Maybe not to the levels that the media make out.

What's the solution? Just believe everyone? It's a crap situation whatever you try to do. And I doubt that any government will ever get it right.

How about we leave the diagnosing to doctors and not form fillers?

Apologies it should have said the assessment is NOT about what your diagnosed with

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"https://www.change.org/p/the-chancellor-of-the-exchequer-george-osborne-remove-the-subsidies-for-the-catering-services-in-the-house-of-lords

Interesting read, maybe sign it while there?

Why just the Lords?"

Dunno, it's a start.

We have to take them down, little by little. Keep pointing out the hypocrisy until they aren't a valid option any more.

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By *an and jackMan
over a year ago

Cardiff

They said friend of mine was fit for work died 10 days later.A lot of people dont know that its only a nurse who does most of inter_iews not doctors fucking disgrace

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

How far will the staunch Tory supporters allow them to go before they say enough, they support all this and excuse it one way or another, I wonder what would have to happen, if anything.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"How far will the staunch Tory supporters allow them to go before they say enough, they support all this and excuse it one way or another, I wonder what would have to happen, if anything."

Most of them are fine with someone sticking their dick into a dead animal.

Says a lot really about what they'll put up with.

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By *arry247Couple
over a year ago

Wakefield

This government is no better and no worse than any other government this country has had since the war.

Individual instances of suffering can be pointed out under every government.

As always there are also individuals who like to make political capital out of other people suffering

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Sad as it is. How do you prove someone has depression or not. Whether they actually have a bad back etc. These things can and are faked. Maybe not to the levels that the media make out.

What's the solution? Just believe everyone? It's a crap situation whatever you try to do. And I doubt that any government will ever get it right.

How about we leave the diagnosing to doctors and not form fillers?

The ATOS assessment I went for was nothing like that. I had to move certain limbs,show how far I could bend,get up on a highish examination table. Had to lift my legs and turn my head side to side and pick something up off of the floor. Oh and get up off of a chair without help. He tapped away at his computer,didn't ask any questions and put a false representation of what I was capable of.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"How far will the staunch Tory supporters allow them to go before they say enough, they support all this and excuse it one way or another, I wonder what would have to happen, if anything.

Most of them are fine with someone sticking their dick into a dead animal.

Says a lot really about what they'll put up with."

I suppose it's the " I'm alright jack" brigade, "if it doesn't affect me, I don't care", just sit back and watch others suffer, in a compassionless numbness.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Sad as it is. How do you prove someone has depression or not. Whether they actually have a bad back etc. These things can and are faked. Maybe not to the levels that the media make out.

What's the solution? Just believe everyone? It's a crap situation whatever you try to do. And I doubt that any government will ever get it right.

How about we leave the diagnosing to doctors and not form fillers?

And then I was reported as fit for work,any work. No assessment of real capabilities or ability,just a short mobility assessment.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Least we forget; if the primary aim of the fiscal policy is to save money then suicides are an effective way of achieving the reduction of ongoing costs.

I'm kind of thinking it's the wrong people that will be lost from amongst us.

We need people who care in this world to put their side of the story. Those caring people should however not be blind to the _iew from the other side of the issue. It is only in that way a balanced compromise can be reached.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"How far will the staunch Tory supporters allow them to go before they say enough, they support all this and excuse it one way or another, I wonder what would have to happen, if anything.

Most of them are fine with someone sticking their dick into a dead animal.

Says a lot really about what they'll put up with.

I suppose it's the " I'm alright jack" brigade, "if it doesn't affect me, I don't care", just sit back and watch others suffer, in a compassionless numbness. "

And then people watch benefits street and my wedding on the dole and think everyone on benefits is living the life of Riley.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Sad as it is. How do you prove someone has depression or not. Whether they actually have a bad back etc. These things can and are faked. Maybe not to the levels that the media make out.

What's the solution? Just believe everyone? It's a crap situation whatever you try to do. And I doubt that any government will ever get it right.

How about we leave the diagnosing to doctors and not form fillers?

That is part of the assessment. If you can do those things then you can get some sort of work?? Even if you have restrictions it doesn't mean you can't do any work at all does it?? He didn't ask how you manage finances? How you cook for yourself? Clean yourself? I know all the questions and assessment. If you were not asked anything you must have put it all in your pre assessment question paper. This is why you are given it and asked to send in evidence so that most of it is there in your own words or a professionals words in the evidence

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"How far will the staunch Tory supporters allow them to go before they say enough, they support all this and excuse it one way or another, I wonder what would have to happen, if anything.

Most of them are fine with someone sticking their dick into a dead animal.

Says a lot really about what they'll put up with.

I suppose it's the " I'm alright jack" brigade, "if it doesn't affect me, I don't care", just sit back and watch others suffer, in a compassionless numbness.

And then people watch benefits street and my wedding on the dole and think everyone on benefits is living the life of Riley. "

Note how those programmes started to appear just after the policies were coming in, media propaganda?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Sad as it is. How do you prove someone has depression or not. Whether they actually have a bad back etc. These things can and are faked. Maybe not to the levels that the media make out.

What's the solution? Just believe everyone? It's a crap situation whatever you try to do. And I doubt that any government will ever get it right.

How about we leave the diagnosing to doctors and not form fillers?

They don't take mental health into account though, how can you demonstrate mental health problems in an ATOS inter_iew, that's why the healthcare professionals are involved in the first place, asking someone with mental problems to touch their toes is ridiculous and degrading.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

To paraphrase an earlier poster...

was everyone asleep when they were voted in or just couldn't be arsed to vote?

I assume everyone on this thread and any other thread complaining about any Government's policy at any time voted on the appropriate election day?

In these day's of fixed term parliaments its decide not to vote in haste - repent over 5 years!

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Sad as it is. How do you prove someone has depression or not. Whether they actually have a bad back etc. These things can and are faked. Maybe not to the levels that the media make out.

What's the solution? Just believe everyone? It's a crap situation whatever you try to do. And I doubt that any government will ever get it right.

How about we leave the diagnosing to doctors and not form fillers?

That's the physical assessment, finances, able to care for self ect is mental health related. Have to do all as some have physical and mental health problems so can't treat people different as you may miss something

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Easy to throw stones and play the blame game when a government (any government) has to mange policies and not micro manage every case.

One solution is to give free money to everyone, no means testing, no fit for work testing, rely on honesty and everything will be fine. I dont think will think that this is the answer.

Neither is pointing out individual cases as proof that the current system is wrong."

Its often not the thinking behind the policy thats wrong but the lack of common sense in the process or blanket application when case by case basis facts should be taken into account

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Sad as it is. How do you prove someone has depression or not. Whether they actually have a bad back etc. These things can and are faked. Maybe not to the levels that the media make out.

What's the solution? Just believe everyone? It's a crap situation whatever you try to do. And I doubt that any government will ever get it right.

How about we leave the diagnosing to doctors and not form fillers?

But my friend only had the physical and was deemed fit for work, they didn't even look into his mental health, the Doctors and mental health specialists had signed him off until he could get the correct help.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"How far will the staunch Tory supporters allow them to go before they say enough, they support all this and excuse it one way or another, I wonder what would have to happen, if anything.

Most of them are fine with someone sticking their dick into a dead animal.

Says a lot really about what they'll put up with.

I suppose it's the " I'm alright jack" brigade, "if it doesn't affect me, I don't care", just sit back and watch others suffer, in a compassionless numbness. "

People with their own problems who don't know how to solve them will also blame those that they can blame to try and make sense of everything going on in their own lives. A lot of people don't know what's going on properly.

I do think there are 'logical' arguments for not paying out to disabled people who are of no benefit to the system paying them. But this then gives us all monetary value instead of a human one, so the more people are dehumanised the more people will not treat them as human. And yes this is the reason why the media is dehumanising them, so that we don't treat people like humans because our leaders are working towards a monetary society and not one where the people in it matter.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

In the 2015 general election 66% of the population voted. The highest turnout was in the 65+ age group (78%) which is why the Government protects pensions. In the 18 to 44 age group it was about 50%. Q.E.D. You get what you vote for.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I find the ruling of "direct" link by a coroner a little concerning. How on earth, when it comes to mental illness, can you point to one specific thing as the cause of the suicide? What was it that caused him to have depression in the first place? Was his depression not, ultimately the cause of his suicide? It feels speculatory. How can anyone know that something else wouldn't come along in a week's time that would have triggered him wanting to take his life?

As a precedent I don't think it's particularly useful. You could point to various government policies and activities over the years causing a business to go under. A job to be lost. A home to be demolished. A seemingly-insurmountable financial problem resulting from changes to tax law. All things that could well be implicated in suicides over that time.

But I'm just heartless, Tory scum so I'm sure someone will be along imminently to dismiss even the slightest grain of doubt as propaganda.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"that someone is making a profit in running these 'assessments' whilst some people with genuine needs and requirements to live with dignity are being targeted is repulsive and damning of us as a 'civilised society'..

no matter which party is in power.."

This reflects on each and every one of us. It is acceptable because we have chosen to accept it.

The measure of any society is how it treats it's most vulnerable. Sadly in many respects we are going backwards.

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By *nnyMan
over a year ago

Glasgow

Confessing to being a Tory is enough. We take the 'heartless' and 'scum' for granted.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Confessing to being a Tory is enough. We take the 'heartless' and 'scum' for granted."

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

^ right on cue.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I find the ruling of "direct" link by a coroner a little concerning. How on earth, when it comes to mental illness, can you point to one specific thing as the cause of the suicide? What was it that caused him to have depression in the first place? Was his depression not, ultimately the cause of his suicide? It feels speculatory. How can anyone know that something else wouldn't come along in a week's time that would have triggered him wanting to take his life?

But I'm just heartless, Tory scum so I'm sure someone will be along imminently to dismiss even the slightest grain of doubt as propaganda. "

There have been 60 enquiries because it was thought that sanctions caused the suicide.

Yes mental illness is complicated but often you just know when something pushes someone over the edge to their death. Poverty is also a huge factor in PTSD and other severe depressions.

I know exactly what it's like living in poverty, i know how the stress of poverty makes your life 100 times more shit and sometimes you wonder when that's gonna ever end. I'm doing alright now, financially - i can't say why, but poverty is my biggest fear and i'm never going back to it. If anyone told me i was worth nothing and what was going in my head wasn't real i'd take them down, not myself, but i can get why some people decide not to bother and give up on life instead.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Social care and governments don't ever have perfect relationships, difficult to see how it will get better in some arenas too.

Ultimately though, I'd love to know what all the Tory haters, pro labour etc, or general negative people are doing about the situations they are 'passionate' about? Often, it's not giving time, or money, to help the cause. Armchair critics just don't solve problems...

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

The system is failed ive been waiting for a conclusive investigation and now corrective surgery for over two years one year of which has been waiting for the operation. in that time i eventually claimed esa, went for assesment told i didnt score enough points so had to sign on to jsa, so went to job centre gave them form from the assesment they wouldnt let me claim as i was not fit for work, so 6 months of doing what i could as and when to make some money then re claimed esa recently had another assesment awaiting result's from that one and have now been advised i shouldve tried to claim Pip from when i 1st had health problems, thankfully my operation is now only two weeks away but recovery could be upto 4 months before i can get back into work, Got to love when the dwp or whoever it is decides you only need £19 a week to live off. no wonder it is making people more depressed

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

This is not the mark of a civilised, decent society. "

I don't think anyone has said people in genuine need shouldn't get help. It's those who take the piss people are annoyed with. There is no ideal solution that anyone has come up with. But that doesn't mean we should just continue to give out money without question.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Social care and governments don't ever have perfect relationships, difficult to see how it will get better in some arenas too.

I'm not for anyone, but i am a whinger.

Yes i am doing some things, not saying everything but i'm involved with some proactive groups.

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By *iewMan
Forum Mod
over a year ago

Angus & Findhorn

That is sad.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I heard a radio inter_iew with a man who was starving because he'd filled his Universal Jobmatch job search out wrong. He'd left off some of the things he had done not realising they had to be recorded. He was crying and embarrassed because he had to go to a food bank because all he had was a tin of spaghetti. Another man died of starvation. Have another glass of champagne to wash down your oysters Mr Cameron you've saved the country a couple of million by killing off the needy and poor. "

Yet we can afford to send money abroad in 'foreign aid', military expenditure for corrupt govts, cash to 'refugees', and the like?

It is about time all our governments, Tory, Lib Dem and Lab got their policies sorted out.

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By *acymarkMan
over a year ago

Bournmouth

"Easy to throw stones and play the blame game when a government (any government) has to mange policies and not micro manage every case.

One solution is to give free money to everyone, no means testing, no fit for work testing, rely on honesty and everything will be fine. I dont think will think that this is the answer.

Neither is pointing out individual cases as proof that the current system is wrong."

Hoorah for common sense!

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Labour took us into an illegal war that cost hundreds of thousands of lives. Now that is scum.

The above and death due to any policy decision could be said for every facet of government there ever has or will be.

These decisions cost lives whether they come from an alleged pig fucker or alleged war criminal.

Blame the whole rotten system. There will never be a perfect system.

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By *iewMan
Forum Mod
over a year ago

Angus & Findhorn

I can't comment on the case as I am not qualified and don't know the details of the individual. It's very sad.

But I won't make political advantage on the back of a poor man's passing.

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By *oo hotCouple
over a year ago

North West

So what is the answer?...

Do we allow everyone to have the unequivoical right to self determine themselves unfit for work without challenge or re_iew at any time?

Is that the answer?

I have only heard stones being thrown, nothing of a suitable counter suggestion.

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By *dwalu2 OP Couple
over a year ago

Bristol

But I'm just heartless, Tory scum so I'm sure someone will be along imminently to dismiss even the slightest grain of doubt as propaganda. "

You might not like to hear that the party you helped ease into power is responsible for killing off the sick, weak and disabled, but it is a fact.

If you find the coroner's decision 'a little concerning', then perhaps you should familiarise yourself more with the case, rather than seeking to dismiss the expert opinion of an investigator because it doesn't suit the way you _iew the world. I think we're safe to assume that he has examined the facts a little more closely than you have before coming to a conclusion.

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By *dwalu2 OP Couple
over a year ago

Bristol

"So what is the answer?...

Do we allow everyone to have the unequivoical right to self determine themselves unfit for work without challenge or re_iew at any time?

Is that the answer?

I have only heard stones being thrown, nothing of a suitable counter suggestion."

It's really quite simple. Revert to the previous system, and then work to a different system IF one is needed, which is highly questionable, from there.

At no point allow company profit through targets to enter whatever system comes next.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

'The straw that broke the camels back"

sometimes all it takes is that one thing to push someone over their limits when suffering from an illness such as depression.

I can only imagine how upsetting & frustrating this must have been for him & his family having medical opinions over ruled.

Maybe having a coroner highlighting a direct link will help for future policies, who knows.....

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

But I'm just heartless, Tory scum so I'm sure someone will be along imminently to dismiss even the slightest grain of doubt as propaganda.

You might not like to hear that the party you helped ease into power is responsible for killing off the sick, weak and disabled, but it is a fact.

That's why I didn't dismiss the verdict of an expert investigator. I just said it raised some questions for me. Questions because I don't think it's particularly useful to use a single tragic case to dictate policy. Perhaps read what I said, not what you chose to read because it suited the way you _iew the world.

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By *nleashedCrakenMan
over a year ago

Widnes

"How far will the staunch Tory supporters allow them to go before they say enough, they support all this and excuse it one way or another, I wonder what would have to happen, if anything.

Most of them are fine with someone sticking their dick into a dead animal.

Says a lot really about what they'll put up with.

I suppose it's the " I'm alright jack" brigade, "if it doesn't affect me, I don't care", just sit back and watch others suffer, in a compassionless numbness.

And then people watch benefits street and my wedding on the dole and think everyone on benefits is living the life of Riley.

Note how those programmes started to appear just after the policies were coming in, media propaganda? "

Well you've got a very short or selective memory then. There has been programs about people living on benefits for years.

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By *dwalu2 OP Couple
over a year ago

Bristol

"How far will the staunch Tory supporters allow them to go before they say enough, they support all this and excuse it one way or another, I wonder what would have to happen, if anything.

Most of them are fine with someone sticking their dick into a dead animal.

Says a lot really about what they'll put up with.

I suppose it's the " I'm alright jack" brigade, "if it doesn't affect me, I don't care", just sit back and watch others suffer, in a compassionless numbness.

And then people watch benefits street and my wedding on the dole and think everyone on benefits is living the life of Riley.

Note how those programmes started to appear just after the policies were coming in, media propaganda?

Well you've got a very short or selective memory then. There has been programs about people living on benefits for years.

Or more like you are suffering from confirmation bias.

No-one would be foolish enough to suggest that programmes seeking to portray benefit recipients as scroungers didn't exist before the Tory-led coalition government decided to target them for financial penalisation.

Similarly, no-one would be foolish enough to suggest that the number of these programmes didn't start to sky rocket when the Tory-led coalition government did so.

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By *nleashedCrakenMan
over a year ago

Widnes

[Removed by poster at 22/09/15 17:23:26]

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By *nleashedCrakenMan
over a year ago

Widnes

"Confessing to being a Tory is enough. We take the 'heartless' and 'scum' for granted."

Do you not think your attitude to those who disagree with the way you see things might be the reason why you keep losing elections. Maybe if you came up with a better alternative which would actually tackle the problem of lives wasted on benefit rather than calling those trying to tackle the problem heartless you might actually start winning elections again.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

As an interested observed is there any real tangible evidence that the current government are controlling the programming on Television?

Or is it just because?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Confessing to being a Tory is enough. We take the 'heartless' and 'scum' for granted.

We have IDS on FAB.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"As an interested observed is there any real tangible evidence that the current government are controlling the programming on Television?

Or is it just because? "

They have media friends in high places, it's a sign of the times.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"As an interested observed is there any real tangible evidence that the current government are controlling the programming on Television?

Or is it just because? "

Don't be ridiculous, confirmation bias only works one way.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"As an interested observed is there any real tangible evidence that the current government are controlling the programming on Television?

Or is it just because?

They have media friends in high places, it's a sign of the times."

As opposed to....all British governments ever?

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By *nleashedCrakenMan
over a year ago

Widnes

"Social care and governments don't ever have perfect relationships, difficult to see how it will get better in some arenas too.

I'm not for anyone, but i am a whinger.

Yes i am doing some things, not saying everything but i'm involved with some proactive groups."

So am I.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"As an interested observed is there any real tangible evidence that the current government are controlling the programming on Television?

Or is it just because?

They have media friends in high places, it's a sign of the times.

As opposed to....all British governments ever? "

Media manipulation goes way back, but we are discussing this particular government.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"As an interested observed is there any real tangible evidence that the current government are controlling the programming on Television?

Or is it just because?

They have media friends in high places, it's a sign of the times."

Just because then?

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By *dwalu2 OP Couple
over a year ago

Bristol

"As an interested observed is there any real tangible evidence that the current government are controlling the programming on Television?

Or is it just because? "

Yes, perhaps it was just chance that programmes seeking to slant the public's perception of benefit recipients happened to proliferate at the same time the government wanted to slant public opinion of benefit recipients.

It's a funny old world, eh?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Labour helped cause most of the problems in the de-stabilised middle east that still kills 100's of people everyday...just sayin'! As you were...

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/depressed-man-killed-himself-as-a-direct-result-of-dwps-fit-to-work-ruling-coroner-finds-10510305.html

There are no words."

Very very sad indeed tho Mr 0' Sullivan isn't the first and no doubt won't be the last!

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By *nleashedCrakenMan
over a year ago

Widnes

But I'm just heartless, Tory scum so I'm sure someone will be along imminently to dismiss even the slightest grain of doubt as propaganda.

You might not like to hear that the party you helped ease into power is responsible for killing off the sick, weak and disabled, but it is a fact.

Actually that's an opinion not a fact. I've seen no documents anywhere where it says it's the policy of the government or one of the aims of the conservative party to kill of the sick, weak or disabled. If you have seen any such document maybe you could point it out to us.

Opinion, no matter how strongly held, is still just that and nothing more.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Labour helped cause most of the problems in the de-stabilised middle east that still kills 100's of people everyday...just sayin'! As you were...

I agree Labour are responsible for some bad things, but this current government are using the economy as an excuse to do some very vile things, and people are ignorant enough to believe them and support them, when you are at ground level and don't trust the media, you can actually see people suffering as a result of this, if you have done well out of their policies, then you tend to look the other way, we have seen this throughout history, but some people never learn from these lessons.

BTW, the " you", I was using was not the personal kind.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"As an interested observed is there any real tangible evidence that the current government are controlling the programming on Television?

Or is it just because?

They have media friends in high places, it's a sign of the times.

As opposed to....all British governments ever?

Media manipulation goes way back, but we are discussing this particular government."

But your argument is that programmes about people on benefits have increased in number under the current government compared to previous governments, and the "evidence" for this is that the current government have friends high up in the media...

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By *rightonsteveMan
over a year ago

Brighton - even Hove!

"Labour helped cause most of the problems in the de-stabilised middle east that still kills 100's of people everyday...just sayin'! As you were...

Presumably, the conservatives will never vote to go to war then? It appears they can kill people at home quite easily anyway. Starve them....deny them financial help.....saves a lot in the course of a government. We're all in it together. Except, of course, those poorer and more vulnerable will be the least able to complain or cope.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"You might not like to hear that the party you helped ease into power is responsible for killing off the sick, weak and disabled, but it is a fact."

Wow! Do we have mother nature running the country??! The greens will be happy!

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"As an interested observed is there any real tangible evidence that the current government are controlling the programming on Television?

Or is it just because?

It's a funny old world, eh?

Not really the reality boom has been going on since the summer of 2000 back when the Labour government was plotting to slay thousands of innocent people. Then pig fucker comes along and nothing really changes apart from a more cautious approach to war.

All that's happened is the TV barrel is being well and truly scraped clean. Nothing sinister in Shite TV that would not appeal to the ideal demographic anyway.

It really is a funny old world.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Labour helped cause most of the problems in the de-stabilised middle east that still kills 100's of people everyday...just sayin'! As you were...

I don't think you can pressume that Steve. Just like no-one can assume that a labour government wouldnt have implemented a similar system faced with the fact that there was, in their own words "no money".

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By *dwalu2 OP Couple
over a year ago

Bristol

"As an interested observed is there any real tangible evidence that the current government are controlling the programming on Television?

Or is it just because?

They have media friends in high places, it's a sign of the times.

As opposed to....all British governments ever?

Media manipulation goes way back, but we are discussing this particular government.

And the programmes themselves. Best not to forget them.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

What programs?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Sad as it is. How do you prove someone has depression or not. Whether they actually have a bad back etc. These things can and are faked. Maybe not to the levels that the media make out.

What's the solution? Just believe everyone? It's a crap situation whatever you try to do. And I doubt that any government will ever get it right.

How about we leave the diagnosing to doctors and not form fillers?

What pre-assessment question paper? My point is they say fit for work or not fit for work. There is no assessment for what kind of work you are fit for. It's all or nothing with them.

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By *rightonsteveMan
over a year ago

Brighton - even Hove!

Btw folks, I like clem!

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Btw folks, I like clem!

Only because you want to empty your balls in my tory mouth!

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"As an interested observed is there any real tangible evidence that the current government are controlling the programming on Television?

Or is it just because?

They have media friends in high places, it's a sign of the times.

As opposed to....all British governments ever?

Media manipulation goes way back, but we are discussing this particular government.

And the programmes themselves. Best not to forget them."

So...in summary, you've seen programmes about people on benefits; and the current government (like all governments before them) are pally with some controllers and editors.....and this is undeniable proof of a wide-ranging media propagandist conspiracy against benefit claimants which has never before existed?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

What fucking programs!!!

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By *dwalu2 OP Couple
over a year ago

Bristol

"Labour helped cause most of the problems in the de-stabilised middle east that still kills 100's of people everyday...just sayin'! As you were...

The last Labour government certainly would have done exactly the same thing, had they clung to power.

Not because there was 'no money', though. A chancellor's joke is a ridiculous thing to bring to an argument if you wish to be taken seriously.

But because the previous Labour governments were as equally driven by a neoliberal agenda as is the current set.

Anyone who seeks to defend Tory policy by asking what a Blairite Labour party would have differently is naive at best, disingenuous at worst..

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"What programs?"

I'm guessing Benefits street et al

Rumour has it if you look closely at the credits It says "Producer: D Cameron"

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"What programs?

I'm guessing Benefits street et al

Rumour has it if you look closely at the credits It says "Producer: D Cameron" "

Impossible. That was filmed in 2013. Not under this current government! BOOM! You have been sussed to the dust!

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Labour helped cause most of the problems in the de-stabilised middle east that still kills 100's of people everyday...just sayin'! As you were...

The last Labour government certainly would have done exactly the same thing, had they clung to power.

Not because there was 'no money', though. A chancellor's joke is a ridiculous thing to bring to an argument if you wish to be taken seriously.

But because the previous Labour governments were as equally driven by a neoliberal agenda as is the current set.

Anyone who seeks to defend Tory policy by asking what a Blairite Labour party would have differently is naive at best, disingenuous at worst.."

Pssst - it wasn't the Chancellor - but you're apparently not keen on facts anyway. That's facts, as opposed to opinion.

As you were.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"What programs?

I'm guessing Benefits street et al

Rumour has it if you look closely at the credits It says "Producer: D Cameron"

Impossible. That was filmed in 2013. Not under this current government! BOOM! You have been sussed to the dust!"

Shiiiiiiiiit rumbled!!!!!!!

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By *dwalu2 OP Couple
over a year ago

Bristol

"As an interested observed is there any real tangible evidence that the current government are controlling the programming on Television?

Or is it just because?

They have media friends in high places, it's a sign of the times.

As opposed to....all British governments ever?

Media manipulation goes way back, but we are discussing this particular government.

And the programmes themselves. Best not to forget them.

It's futile trying to argue 'proof' with you. You are here trying to deny the evidential conclusion of a coroner based on your own voting choices, so please continue to see the world however you will.

It must be blissful.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

And on that bomb shell i will wipe my ass and get off the loo! Enjoy your argument! Xx

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By *nleashedCrakenMan
over a year ago

Widnes

"How far will the staunch Tory supporters allow them to go before they say enough, they support all this and excuse it one way or another, I wonder what would have to happen, if anything.

Most of them are fine with someone sticking their dick into a dead animal.

Says a lot really about what they'll put up with.

I suppose it's the " I'm alright jack" brigade, "if it doesn't affect me, I don't care", just sit back and watch others suffer, in a compassionless numbness.

And then people watch benefits street and my wedding on the dole and think everyone on benefits is living the life of Riley.

Note how those programmes started to appear just after the policies were coming in, media propaganda?

Well you've got a very short or selective memory then. There has been programs about people living on benefits for years.

Or more like you are suffering from confirmation bias.

Similarly, no-one would be foolish enough to suggest that the number of these programmes didn't start to sky rocket when the Tory-led coalition government did so."

First off you are assuming that I agree that there are a lot, or even a relatively few, people who choose to scrounge off the benefits system when nothing I have said in this thread or any other could possibly be construed as suggesting that.

My main concern with benefits is the harm I believe a life on benefits does for the individuals who receive them. I believe that most people should be encouraged to be as self dependant as possible.

The question is how do we achieve that? Going back to the old system that existed before Gordon & Tony started to introduce these back to work schemes clearly is not the solution as it wasn't working then.

As for so called "benefits scroungers" I personally think that that's a bit of a ref herring. Not that it shouldn't be dealt with but it's not the real problem IMHO.

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By *nleashedCrakenMan
over a year ago

Widnes

"As an interested observed is there any real tangible evidence that the current government are controlling the programming on Television?

Or is it just because?

They have media friends in high places, it's a sign of the times."

And yet many in the Conservative Patty believe the media, especially the TV is biased against them.

Maybe it has something to do with people on both sides not being able to accept that there is always another side to any argument or point of _iew.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"As an interested observed is there any real tangible evidence that the current government are controlling the programming on Television?

Or is it just because?

They have media friends in high places, it's a sign of the times.

As opposed to....all British governments ever?

Media manipulation goes way back, but we are discussing this particular government.

And the programmes themselves. Best not to forget them.

It must be blissful."

As usual, a diversion from the actual question with a criticism of my posting style or political choices. Thanks for instructing me on why I'm here and how I feel, because I wasn't sure. Did I miss the memo that no voices of dissent from the mandated groupthink _iew on all things politic are allowed?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Someone said something earlier about it not being about individual cases. It is,each individual has the right to fair treatment,help where needed and help to get back into work that they are able to do. Not to have someone tell them they are fit for work and then giving no help to those incapable of doing the menial labour and physical jobs that anyone can get. The jobs the real lazy scroungers can do but won't. There are limited numbers of desk jobs,reception work that you don't need A levels or experience for a less physical jobs. 75% of vacancies on the dwp jobsite are with agencies. Agencies will take you on and send you ridiculous jobs you have no qualifications for and send the same ones over and over. Jobs that require travelling across London at rush hour that some people will struggle with and won't have the experience or qualifications for. If you don't apply for these vacancies you wont fill your quota for the week and you will be sanctioned. So,you have people with mobility problems,mental health problems etc applying for jobs that won't even get past the cv stage. Then,once you've been unemployed for a certain amount of time they put you on a two week intensive job search program on the 1st floor of the building that has no lift. Unless you've been in any of these circumstances you can just judge someone and call them lazy,scroungers.

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By *dwalu2 OP Couple
over a year ago

Bristol

"As an interested observed is there any real tangible evidence that the current government are controlling the programming on Television?

Or is it just because?

They have media friends in high places, it's a sign of the times.

As opposed to....all British governments ever?

Media manipulation goes way back, but we are discussing this particular government.

And the programmes themselves. Best not to forget them.

It must be blissful.

You managed to get all that out without being abusive, too! You become a better person each day.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"As an interested observed is there any real tangible evidence that the current government are controlling the programming on Television?

Or is it just because?

They have media friends in high places, it's a sign of the times.

As opposed to....all British governments ever?

Media manipulation goes way back, but we are discussing this particular government.

And the programmes themselves. Best not to forget them.

It must be blissful.

You managed to get all that out without being abusive, too! You become a better person each day.

Thanks, I'm glad you noticed. Some of us learn from our mistakes. Some of us even admit to occasionally making them.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Still no proof then. From an impartial _iewpoint it's all looking like rumour then.

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By *nleashedCrakenMan
over a year ago

Widnes

"Actually that's an opinion not a fact. I've seen no documents anywhere where it says it's the policy of the government or one of the aims of the conservative party to kill of the sick, weak or disabled. If you have seen any such document maybe you could point it out to us

http://www.centreforwelfarereform.org/

Extract: The current UK Government aims to significantly reduce the level of public expenditure in the UK by an overall cut of £63.4 billion by 2015, a reduction of 10.8%. However, not everything is being cut. The NHS and Pensions are protected. No. 10 and No. 11 have increased their own budgets by over 240% and the level of cuts to other services varies considerably.

If we exclude the areas of growth and protected services there are in fact cuts of £75.2 billion. And of these cuts over 50% fall on just two areas, benefits and local government, despite the fact that together they make up only 26.8%of central government expenditure. Most people do not realise that local government’s primary function (over 60%) is to provide social care to children and adults.

In other words, the cuts are not fair but targeted, and they target people in poverty, disabled people and their families

Also.

United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland 20/05/2014 JAL GBR 1/2014 Alleged violation of the human rights of persons living in poverty in the context of austerity measures.

Report done Mrs. Raquel Rolnik, works on human rights for the UN, or dabbles in witchcraft if you read the daily mail.

http://www.ohchr.org/EN/Issues/Housing/Pages/Communications.aspx

Just a couple of examples, and don't forget this government won't release reports made about them."

I haven't the time to read them right now but I will do. Thanks for posting them. It is important that people properly understand the possible consequences of any policy.

However I doubt very much that it will say anywhere in any of those reports that it's the stated intent of the government to kill of the sick, weak or disabled.

It's an opinion, not a fact.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I'm not talking about myself by the way. I got myself two part time jobs I can work around my health problems. Not everyone is that lucky.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Deny all you want these people work with the disabled and their carers. They're supporting them and have spent years doing so.

By denying them you are failing the disabled and propagating a system that denies them rights.

The UN is also looking into breaches of rights, not just for the disabled but for all in poverty.

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By *nleashedCrakenMan
over a year ago

Widnes

"Someone said something earlier about it not being about individual cases. It is,each individual has the right to fair treatment,help where needed and help to get back into work that they are able to do. Not to have someone tell them they are fit for work and then giving no help to those incapable of doing the menial labour and physical jobs that anyone can get. The jobs the real lazy scroungers can do but won't. There are limited numbers of desk jobs,reception work that you don't need A levels or experience for a less physical jobs. 75% of vacancies on the dwp jobsite are with agencies. Agencies will take you on and send you ridiculous jobs you have no qualifications for and send the same ones over and over. Jobs that require travelling across London at rush hour that some people will struggle with and won't have the experience or qualifications for. If you don't apply for these vacancies you wont fill your quota for the week and you will be sanctioned. So,you have people with mobility problems,mental health problems etc applying for jobs that won't even get past the cv stage. Then,once you've been unemployed for a certain amount of time they put you on a two week intensive job search program on the 1st floor of the building that has no lift. Unless you've been in any of these circumstances you can just judge someone and call them lazy,scroungers. "

Just for the record, I've not called anyone or any group of people "lazy scroungers" and, unless I knew the person's details and circumstances intimately and was able to probably judge, I never would.

In fact on this thread I think you'll find the word scrounger has been used far more by those claiming to be on the side of people who claim benefits.

I've not actually counted.

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By *rightonsteveMan
over a year ago

Brighton - even Hove!

"Btw folks, I like clem!

Only because you want to empty your balls in my tory mouth!

He knows me

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Deny all you want these people work with the disabled and their carers. They're supporting them and have spent years doing so.

By denying them you are failing the disabled and propagating a system that denies them rights.

The UN is also looking into breaches of rights, not just for the disabled but for all in poverty."

The United Nations are looking into this???

Must be serious.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Btw folks, I like clem!

Only because you want to empty your balls in my tory mouth!

He knows me

I wouldn't mind watching

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

In fact on this thread I think you'll find the word scrounger has been used far more by those claiming to be on the side of people who claim benefits.

I've not actually counted."

I was talking about anyone on this thread. Excuse me,I'm extremely mentally tired today

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By *nleashedCrakenMan
over a year ago

Widnes

In fact on this thread I think you'll find the word scrounger has been used far more by those claiming to be on the side of people who claim benefits.

I've not actually counted.

I was talking about anyone on this thread. Excuse me,I'm extremely mentally tired today

No probe, keep posting. Your points and observations are quite enlightening.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Deny all you want these people work with the disabled and their carers. They're supporting them and have spent years doing so.

By denying them you are failing the disabled and propagating a system that denies them rights.

The UN is also looking into breaches of rights, not just for the disabled but for all in poverty.

The United Nations are looking into this???

Must be serious. "

Dunno if they're effective, like i said the government won't release the results of their reports so maybe they don't have nay power?

We have to rely on ourselves to change things, not them.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Bottom line is, people are suffering due to the actions from this government, when you are on the receiving end of these policies, you see exactly what is going on.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

The Camerons, Osbournes and Duncan Smiths of this world and their friends at the top, will justify and condemn in accordance with whatever gives them power and money, that is how they are.

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By *oo hotCouple
over a year ago

North West

Every year some teenagers commit suicide because of the pressure of exams - should we change the cruel government policy of making children sit GCSE and A level exams? This policy is killing teenagers.

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By *dwalu2 OP Couple
over a year ago

Bristol

"Every year some teenagers commit suicide because of the pressure of exams - should we change the cruel government policy of making children sit GCSE and A level exams? This policy is killing teenagers."

What previous system of examination are you comparing it to? You know, so that your analogy has some relevance.

Or were you just flinging up some words there in the hope they made a point?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

That is a ridiculous thing to say.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"How far will the staunch Tory supporters allow them to go before they say enough, they support all this and excuse it one way or another, I wonder what would have to happen, if anything."

Only when it affects them and theirs, I suspect

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

It is always the same with Tories and their supporters, it is alway the right thing to do when it isn't affecting them or the ones they love.

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By *iewMan
Forum Mod
over a year ago

Angus & Findhorn

"It is always the same with Tories and their supporters, it is alway the right thing to do when it isn't affecting them or the ones they love."

I know, I know.... I am a cunt

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Ignoratio elenchi

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By *inaTitzTV/TS
over a year ago

Titz Towers, North Notts

Odds bodkins.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"The Camerons, Osbournes and Duncan Smiths of this world and their friends at the top, will justify and condemn in accordance with whatever gives them power and money, that is how they are."

Because they and their children will never face the hardships that the common person does.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"The Camerons, Osbournes and Duncan Smiths of this world and their friends at the top, will justify and condemn in accordance with whatever gives them power and money, that is how they are.

Because they and their children will never face the hardships that the common person does. "

Not like all those other MP's eh?

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By *anchestercubMan
over a year ago

manchester & NI

"There's been an enquiry into the mnay suicides but the government refuse to publish the results.

http://www.theguardian.com/society/2014/dec/14/dwp-inquiries-benefit-claimant-suicides"

The Work and Pensions Select Committee reported that at least 40 people had committed suicide between 2012 and 2014 because of welfare problems.

Charities like Black Triangle have said the number is 80+.

That doesn't factor in the 2,380 people who have died as a result of their illnesses shortly after being found fit to work.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"The Camerons, Osbournes and Duncan Smiths of this world and their friends at the top, will justify and condemn in accordance with whatever gives them power and money, that is how they are.

Because they and their children will never face the hardships that the common person does.

Not like all those other MP's eh?

Maybe the BNP ones

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By *inky-MinxWoman
over a year ago

Grantham

"Easy to throw stones and play the blame game when a government (any government) has to mange policies and not micro manage every case.

One solution is to give free money to everyone, no means testing, no fit for work testing, rely on honesty and everything will be fine. I dont think will think that this is the answer.

Neither is pointing out individual cases as proof that the current system is wrong."

Well said

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"The Camerons, Osbournes and Duncan Smiths of this world and their friends at the top, will justify and condemn in accordance with whatever gives them power and money, that is how they are.

Because they and their children will never face the hardships that the common person does.

Not like all those other MP's eh?

Maybe the BNP ones "

True, they dont get much more working class than that lot!

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By *inky-MinxWoman
over a year ago

Grantham

I don't suppose anyone remembers who ran up the debts and put us in the financial shit in the first place?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I don't suppose anyone remembers who ran up the debts and put us in the financial shit in the first place?

It was my wife, she left the iron on...AGAIN!

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I don't suppose anyone remembers who ran up the debts and put us in the financial shit in the first place?

It was my wife, she left the iron on...AGAIN!"

You really need to remind her of her housewife duties tsk

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/depressed-man-killed-himself-as-a-direct-result-of-dwps-fit-to-work-ruling-coroner-finds-10510305.html

There are no words."

Silver lining for the govt. for all the people concerned in the article, no appeals.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Another man died of starvation. "

Sorry but that's bollocks do you have any idea how long it takes to die of starvation.

It's months, no one's starved to death because their benifits have been cut.

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By *anchestercubMan
over a year ago

manchester & NI

"I don't suppose anyone remembers who ran up the debts and put us in the financial shit in the first place?

When John Major left office it was 43% of GDP.

When Gordon Brown left office it was 57%.

In 2013 it was 76%.

So you tell me!

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I don't suppose anyone remembers who ran up the debts and put us in the financial shit in the first place?

It was my wife, she left the iron on...AGAIN!

You really need to remind her of her housewife duties tsk"

Surely that's her mum's job?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Politicians come and go. But the bankers who fucked us all are still playing with OUR hard earned cash...and our kids cash...and their kids...(and they're still banking)...and we cant vote them out.

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By *ath_Neil_bifunCouple
over a year ago

near cardiff

"So what is the answer?...

Do we allow everyone to have the unequivoical right to self determine themselves unfit for work without challenge or re_iew at any time?

Is that the answer?

I have only heard stones being thrown, nothing of a suitable counter suggestion."

It has been pointed out on numerous occasions on this thread that people who have been backed up by several doctors as 'unfit for work', not self determined, and this WAS working until ATOS came and ignored health care professionals. So the solution is to return to a system that respects a professional and expert opinion.

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By *oo hotCouple
over a year ago

North West

That is a ridiculous thing to say."

I am trying to de-politicise the argument by simply pointing out that all governments pursue policies that some vulnerable people imply can't cope with.

The rather unfortunate thing here is that nobody has acknowledged that being in work is actually good for people. Who on here has not been out of work at some stage in their life? The longer it goes on the more anxious we feel, self confidence disappears and the feeling of self worth hits rock bottom. Imagine being disabled as well?!

What is missing from this debate is the fact that everyone can do some type of work and it is irrefutable that being in work is good for people's self worth, confidence and social standing. The missing bit is the support from being a long term, non working person to actually being in the right frame of mind to become an independent and confident job seeker.

The concept of encouraging people to work is correct. There is just something missing in the middle.

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By *at69driveMan
over a year ago

Hertford

"https://www.change.org/p/the-chancellor-of-the-exchequer-george-osborne-remove-the-subsidies-for-the-catering-services-in-the-house-of-lords

Interesting read, maybe sign it while there?

Why just the Lords?

Dunno, it's a start.

We have to take them down, little by little. Keep pointing out the hypocrisy until they aren't a valid option any more."
. Anyone who has worked hard in life to achieve a certain status will expect perks . Why would anyone want to remove these perks when the cost is immaterial. We are not all equal in life and never will be .

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By *ap AdgeMan
over a year ago

Wirral

Why aren't these tories getting there heads kicked in

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By *oo hotCouple
over a year ago

North West

"Why aren't these tories getting there heads kicked in

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By *at69driveMan
over a year ago

Hertford

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/depressed-man-killed-himself-as-a-direct-result-of-dwps-fit-to-work-ruling-coroner-finds-10510305.htm

There are no words."

Presumably he still received normal benefits so we can hardly blame the government for the fact that he committed suicide . The fact that he committed suicide would indicate that he was mentally unbalanced .

It would be interesting to know a bit more about his background and for how long he was claimed benefits .

The benefits and disability system is widely abused by some claimants and the government have no option but to clamp down on it .

We should not be blaming the government , the people to blame are those claimants who make false claims.

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By *icked weaselCouple
over a year ago

Near Edinburgh..

If This Was Another Country...

Riots.. Would have Ensured..

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By *at69driveMan
over a year ago

Hertford

"Why aren't these tories getting there heads kicked in

"
. Probably because they won the recent election and more people support their policies than any other party . Decent people are against violence .

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By *at69driveMan
over a year ago

Hertford

"Politicians come and go. But the bankers who fucked us all are still playing with OUR hard earned cash...and our kids cash...and their kids...(and they're still banking)...and we cant vote them out."
. Everyone has a choice as to whom they bank with . Losses by the banks were suffered mainly by the shareholders . Where the government provided bail out fund , these will in most cases be repaid.

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By *nleashedCrakenMan
over a year ago

Widnes

"So what is the answer?...

Do we allow everyone to have the unequivoical right to self determine themselves unfit for work without challenge or re_iew at any time?

Is that the answer?

I have only heard stones being thrown, nothing of a suitable counter suggestion.

But that system simply did not work and led to thousands of people being abandoned to a life of poverty on benefits. You can't claim to care about peoples welfare in one breath and then say in the next that you support a system that imprisoned them to a life of dependence and poverty. Sounds like a rather false sort of concern to me.

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By *nleashedCrakenMan
over a year ago

Widnes

That is a ridiculous thing to say.

I am trying to de-politicise the argument by simply pointing out that all governments pursue policies that some vulnerable people imply can't cope with.

The concept of encouraging people to work is correct. There is just something missing in the middle."

You're wasting your time. Those on here claiming to want to help the poor are less concerned with actually finding solutions to try and help them and more concerned with Tory bashing. They've not come up with even one workable solutions that might actually make anything better.

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By *anchestercubMan
over a year ago

manchester & NI

"So what is the answer?...

Do we allow everyone to have the unequivoical right to self determine themselves unfit for work without challenge or re_iew at any time?

Is that the answer?

I have only heard stones being thrown, nothing of a suitable counter suggestion.

How does a much poorer assessment make rehabilitation back into work better/easier?

If you don't want people 'abandoned' then you have to work on making the transition into work easier/more comprehensive. Not making the assessment more difficult.

If you want to not deal with people and ignore their problems or pretend they don't exist then a poorer assessment process is the answer and the one this government is pursuing.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

What the government has done is changed the goal posts. People who were once deemed unfit for employment are now being told you can do some kind of work. All fair except the help to find suitable employment doesn't seem to be there or the jobs aren't. People with ME, Fibromyalgia or chronic fatigue syndrome could pass the mobility test and personal care that someone mentioned earlier but will not have the strength or energy to be productive in a work place.

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By *vsnikkiTV/TS
over a year ago

Limavady

That is a ridiculous thing to say."

Why? The analogy is relevant.

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By *nleashedCrakenMan
over a year ago

Widnes

[Removed by poster at 23/09/15 00:27:22]

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By *nleashedCrakenMan
over a year ago

Widnes

"Why aren't these tories getting there heads kicked in

Because, generally speaking, kicking peoples heads in tends to lead to electoral defeat.

Added to that that most people who advocate violence are normally cowards, the fact that there are more Tory supporters in the country than Labour supporters might also be a reason to.

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By *nleashedCrakenMan
over a year ago

Widnes

"If This Was Another Country...

Riots.. Would have Ensured..

Well it's not another country so that's not really relevant.

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By *nleashedCrakenMan
over a year ago

Widnes

"Why aren't these tories getting there heads kicked in

. Probably because they won the recent election and more people support their policies than any other party . Decent people are against violence ."

Well put

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By *iamondjoeMan
over a year ago

Glastonbury

"Why aren't these tories getting there heads kicked in

Because, generally speaking, kicking peoples heads in tends to lead to electoral defeat.

Added to that that most people who advocate violence are normally cowards, the fact that there are more Tory supporters in the country than Labour supporters might also be a reason to."

As my old mate Jackie Fisher said:

"Of course everyone wants peace, but every bugger wants it on his own terms"

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By *oo hotCouple
over a year ago

North West

"What the government has done is changed the goal posts. People who were once deemed unfit for employment are now being told you can do some kind of work. All fair except the help to find suitable employment doesn't seem to be there or the jobs aren't. People with ME, Fibromyalgia or chronic fatigue syndrome could pass the mobility test and personal care that someone mentioned earlier but will not have the strength or energy to be productive in a work place. "

Those on here that know us will know that this issue is very much close to our heart. The key is support.

There is work in our society. Some people need help and support to identify their role in the workplace.

The reality is that there are people (able bodied and disabled) who know that work is good for them just as there are people (able bodied and disabled) who will go to great lengths in order to avoid being in work.

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By *icked weaselCouple
over a year ago

Near Edinburgh..

"If This Was Another Country...

Riots.. Would have Ensured..

Well it's not another country so that's not really relevant."

So the Riots That Happen... Near the English Border of Calais !!

Don't Have Any Relevance.. ok.. x

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

This is unfortunately where I am at this moment in my life, I would love to work and earn the £40-£50k I was a year and enjoy my life as much as I was.

I don't apply for or take benefits that I am 'entitled' to as there are others who need them more than me, so don't tell me I'm lazy or scrounging as I'm neither.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"this is a bit long sorry.....