FabSwingers.com forum: Refugees and Immigrants: Help or reject?

By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

Hi all,

Having a discussion for a project at work and would appreciate people's _iews as to whether we should help immigrants and refugees or leave them to fend for themselves?

My personal and professional _iew is we must help them. I think we're lucky to have been born where we are and if I had a young family, I'd do anything I could to escape the terrors they have endured.

Post away...

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By *aneandpaulCouple
over a year ago

cleveleys

Another thread to cause a problem the do gooders will be ready to pounce on any one that says don,t help

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I don't know what the answer is but waking up and seeing the picture of the wee boy on the beach has just broken my heart

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Help all the way. I always say put yourselves in their position, if you had a chance for a better life for you and your family I'm sure you would take it. Alot of foreigners aren't here by choice, they are working to help their families back home. Every credit to them. It's the government's fault not the migrants. Thank the fat cats the big corperations but not the migrants, they are trying to make better life's for themselves. Also the next migrant entering may be the same one that provides another 20 jobs for English people.

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By *olgateMan
over a year ago

on the road to nowhere in particular

There is a big difference between refugees and immigrants.

Do we help refugees? Yes

Do we allow in any more financial immigrants? No.

Industry should invest more in training. That goes from the top premiership football clubs and financial institutions all the way down to Indian restaurants not training their own chefs.

C...

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

"Another thread to cause a problem the do gooders will be ready to pounce on any one that says don,t help "

Wanting genuine opinions. If people put an opinion to please others, then they're the ones that aren't helpful. You should always stay true to what you believe.

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By *heBirminghamWeekendMan
over a year ago

here

UK is currently helping.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Reject as there county's became like they are because of the people that live there, so really the hosts country will end up the same. Better off fixing the problems in there country.

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By *imply_SensualMan
over a year ago

Widnes

"There is a big difference between refugees and immigrants.

Do we help refugees? Yes

Do we allow in any more financial immigrants? No.

Industry should invest more in training. That goes from the top premiership football clubs and financial institutions all the way down to Indian restaurants not training their own chefs.

C..."

The first issue is this, getting people to understand the difference between a refugee and an immigrant. They aren't the same thing. When you see the suffering that some refugees endure, humanity dictates they should not be ignored.

Immigrants on the other hand, are something that we can and should control. We have a finite amount of resources and our infrastructure can only take so much demand, so as a country we should be doing what we can - and by control, I don't mean shut them all out, some bring value to the UK, others don't.

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By *iamondjoeMan
over a year ago

Glastonbury

Help. It's very simple.

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By *iss_tressWoman
over a year ago

London

"There is a big difference between refugees and immigrants.

Do we help refugees? Yes

Do we allow in any more financial immigrants? No.

Industry should invest more in training. That goes from the top premiership football clubs and financial institutions all the way down to Indian restaurants not training their own chefs.

C...

Pretty much sums up my _iew.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Just help everyone you can on your planet, compassion and empathy are as simple as that.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Help. It's very simple. "

Respect to you sir.

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By *erbyDalesCplCouple
over a year ago

Derbyshire

"Help. It's very simple. "

But it quickly gets complicated when you ask 'how?'

Mr ddc

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By *dwalu2Couple
over a year ago

Bristol

"Help. It's very simple. "

All that needs to be said.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"There is a big difference between refugees and immigrants.

Do we help refugees? Yes

Do we allow in any more financial immigrants? No.

Industry should invest more in training. That goes from the top premiership football clubs and financial institutions all the way down to Indian restaurants not training their own chefs.

C...

Are you saying the worth of a person should be based on how useful they are to you, what about disabled people who can't do anything?

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By *iamondjoeMan
over a year ago

Glastonbury

"Help. It's very simple.

But it quickly gets complicated when you ask 'how?'

Mr ddc"

I don't have time right now. But the simple fact of the matter is there is more than enough on this planet for *everyone* to enjoy:-

* housing

* clothing

* food

* water & sanitation

* education

More than enough.

It's just these pesky brown people somehow keep getting left behind and thenm to make it worse, keep washing up (metaphorically and literally atm) on European shores.

To all the nay-sayers: Would you have sent Jewish refugee in the late 30s back to Germany?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Help. It's very simple.

But it quickly gets complicated when you ask 'how?'

Mr ddc

I don't have time right now. But the simple fact of the matter is there is more than enough on this planet for *everyone* to enjoy:-

* housing

* clothing

* food

* water & sanitation

* education

More than enough.

It's just these pesky brown people somehow keep getting left behind and thenm to make it worse, keep washing up (metaphorically and literally atm) on European shores.

To all the nay-sayers: Would you have sent Jewish refugee in the late 30s back to Germany?"

You're on target this morning.

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By *L RogueMan
over a year ago

London

"Help. It's very simple.

But it quickly gets complicated when you ask 'how?'

Mr ddc

I don't have time right now. But the simple fact of the matter is there is more than enough on this planet for *everyone* to enjoy:-

* housing

* clothing

* food

* water & sanitation

* education

More than enough.

It's just these pesky brown people somehow keep getting left behind and thenm to make it worse, keep washing up (metaphorically and literally atm) on European shores.

To all the nay-sayers: Would you have sent Jewish refugee in the late 30s back to Germany?"

I agree. There is enough to go round. That's the biggest con in all of this!

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

"There is a big difference between refugees and immigrants.

Do we help refugees? Yes

Do we allow in any more financial immigrants? No.

Industry should invest more in training. That goes from the top premiership football clubs and financial institutions all the way down to Indian restaurants not training their own chefs.

C..."

Fair point. Also like to add that no immigrant/asylum seekers can claim any extra benefits a UK resident can claim. Also extra criteria for them to hit and non-eu immigrants/asylum seekers can claim very minimal benefits.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Help. It's very simple.

But it quickly gets complicated when you ask 'how?'

Mr ddc

I don't have time right now. But the simple fact of the matter is there is more than enough on this planet for *everyone* to enjoy:-

* housing

* clothing

* food

* water & sanitation

* education

More than enough.

It's just these pesky brown people somehow keep getting left behind and thenm to make it worse, keep washing up (metaphorically and literally atm) on European shores.

To all the nay-sayers: Would you have sent Jewish refugee in the late 30s back to Germany?

I agree. There is enough to go round. That's the biggest con in all of this!"

It's all about control. Thankfully some of us can see that, but we need to keep pushing. Wake up people, get your noses out of your Daily Mails and see the truth.

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By *encarolCouple
over a year ago

Tyneside

This government cant even help the British people, so much so many familys are now relying on food banks and clothes banks now .

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By *imply_SensualMan
over a year ago

Widnes

"There is a big difference between refugees and immigrants.

Do we help refugees? Yes

Do we allow in any more financial immigrants? No.

Industry should invest more in training. That goes from the top premiership football clubs and financial institutions all the way down to Indian restaurants not training their own chefs.

C...

Are you saying the worth of a person should be based on how useful they are to you, what about disabled people who can't do anything?"

No, thats not what I am saying, or what I have written. I didn't put 'me' into the statement.

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

"There is a big difference between refugees and immigrants.

Do we help refugees? Yes

Do we allow in any more financial immigrants? No.

Industry should invest more in training. That goes from the top premiership football clubs and financial institutions all the way down to Indian restaurants not training their own chefs.

C...

Great point well made.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"There is a big difference between refugees and immigrants.

Do we help refugees? Yes

Do we allow in any more financial immigrants? No.

Industry should invest more in training. That goes from the top premiership football clubs and financial institutions all the way down to Indian restaurants not training their own chefs.

C..."

What about " financial " migrants?

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

"This government cant even help the British people, so much so many familys are now relying on food banks and clothes banks now .

NO"

I have first hand experience of this as many of the families I support use food banks so agree that the government should be doing more to support people in this country.

However, I believe those who can help should help those in need. If we were in that situation we'd more than likely want to escape. Save as many as we can.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

There are enough people in our OWN country that are in need of help.

Ex service personnel - these people that have served our country that need help with things such as artificial limbs,help with depression,housing etc etc.

What about these poor young teens that have run away from home because of abuse that are living on the streets - give them help.

Or cancer patients that need certain meds that ere 'too expensive' ????

How about seeing that are OWN people are cared for before worrying about others

we already waste too much money on foreign aid.

All a matter of getting our priorities correct.

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By *aneandpaulCouple
over a year ago

cleveleys

They don,t count if your British no mater what color

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By *dwalu2Couple
over a year ago

Bristol

"There are enough people in our OWN country that are in need of help.

Ex service personnel - these people that have served our country that need help with things such as artificial limbs,help with depression,housing etc etc.

What about these poor young teens that have run away from home because of abuse that are living on the streets - give them help.

Or cancer patients that need certain meds that ere 'too expensive' ????

How about seeing that are OWN people are cared for before worrying about others

we already waste too much money on foreign aid.

All a matter of getting our priorities correct.

So, taking it logically, your point is that every person in the UK should be completely financially secure before we help a single foreign person fleeing war or persecution?

Nice.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"There are enough people in our OWN country that are in need of help.

Ex service personnel - these people that have served our country that need help with things such as artificial limbs,help with depression,housing etc etc.

What about these poor young teens that have run away from home because of abuse that are living on the streets - give them help.

Or cancer patients that need certain meds that ere 'too expensive' ????

How about seeing that are OWN people are cared for before worrying about others

we already waste too much money on foreign aid.

All a matter of getting our priorities correct.

So, taking it logically, your point is that every person in the UK should be completely financially secure before we help a single foreign person fleeing war or persecution?

Nice."

YEP

Hitler had it right - see to his own people first

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By *iamondjoeMan
over a year ago

Glastonbury

"YEP

Hitler had it right - see to his own people first

Are you *actually* shitting me?

Loooooool

Everybody point and laugh!

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By *erbyDalesCplCouple
over a year ago

Derbyshire

"Help. It's very simple.

But it quickly gets complicated when you ask 'how?'

Mr ddc

I don't have time right now. But the simple fact of the matter is there is more than enough on this planet for *everyone* to enjoy:-

* housing

* clothing

* food

* water & sanitation

* education

More than enough.

It's just these pesky brown people somehow keep getting left behind and thenm to make it worse, keep washing up (metaphorically and literally atm) on European shores.

To all the nay-sayers: Would you have sent Jewish refugee in the late 30s back to Germany?"

That's not much comfort to them "there's plenty to go around, but sorry, I don't have time right now"

The truth is we don't have enough houses, schools, teachers, doctors, nurses, etc to allow in millions of people, though that is the fault of governments refusing to invest in our infrastructure.

Of course we could simply help ourselves to the educated youth of other countries, but how does that help those countries in the long-term?

How about Spain, with youth unemployment running around 50%, should they further swell the pool of available labour?

The truth is we are happy to meddle in other countries and cause the instability, but when it comes to dealing with the problems iy causes suddenly our politicians just want to wring their hands.

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By *44bertCouple
over a year ago

Inverness

If you are the kind of person who is unmoved by pictures of drowned babies, then you are an utter cunt.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Another thread to cause a problem the do gooders will be ready to pounce on any one that says don,t help

Wanting genuine opinions. If people put an opinion to please others, then they're the ones that aren't helpful. You should always stay true to what you believe.

Keeping your opinion is also acceptable.

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By *iamondjoeMan
over a year ago

Glastonbury

"That's not much comfort to them "there's plenty to go around, but sorry, I don't have time right now"

The truth is we don't have enough houses, schools, teachers, doctors, nurses, etc to allow in millions of people, though that is the fault of governments refusing to invest in our infrastructure.

Of course we could simply help ourselves to the educated youth of other countries, but how does that help those countries in the long-term?

How about Spain, with youth unemployment running around 50%, should they further swell the pool of available labour?

The truth is we are happy to meddle in other countries and cause the instability, but when it comes to dealing with the problems iy causes suddenly our politicians just want to wring their hands."

Like most of my points, it's a simple statement of fact.

I have this annoying thing called 'work' that I'm occasionally called upon to do.

I'll pick the debate up later.

Assuming you haven't all solved it in the meantime by 'sending them all back where they came from'.

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By *agicfingerslovelyMan
over a year ago

Rugby

Saw his own people well did he not but not 6 million Jews. Also tell that to the British soldiers and those killed by him sat in their homes in this country.

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By *agicfingerslovelyMan
over a year ago

Rugby

Start by imprisoning Blair, confiscate the funds and traders of those backers in royal families in the Middle East. Then show a bit of humanity.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

My family were refugees. Suffered from torture for years and their own people disappearing and dying. Because, they wanted free education and believed in equality and public services. This was the 70s.

So of course help the people in need and are in danger. UK takes in only tiny percent of the UK total population.

"Another thread to cause a problem the do gooders will be ready to pounce on any one that says don,t help

Wanting genuine opinions. If people put an opinion to please others, then they're the ones that aren't helpful. You should always stay true to what you believe.

Keeping your opinion is also acceptable.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Another thread to cause a problem the do gooders will be ready to pounce on any one that says don,t help "
hey how can anyone take seriously a thread when many of the pics from people involved are cocks breasts and pussies of course we should help but so should all the other EU countries ,they want to come here because we are open to abuse ,we are a nation that turns the other cheek and hasn't it bit us in the bum

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By *erbyDalesCplCouple
over a year ago

Derbyshire

"Like most of my points, it's a simple statement of fact.

I have this annoying thing called 'work' that I'm occasionally called upon to do.

I'll pick the debate up later.

Assuming you haven't all solved it in the meantime by 'sending them all back where they came from'.

That's kinda my point, the Left are always keen to offer platitudes, but all these people want is actual help. Soundbites are always easier to provide than solutions.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

If I had President Assad dropping barrel bombs on my house on one side and then ISIS coming at me from the other. I know I would not want my family to stay put.

Some Migrant routes such as the North African route is notorious for young men coming to Europe for an easy ride that's true.

However the current crisis is a different story altogether that picture of the young lad washed up on a Turkish beach puts it into perspective.

I do not consider myself a do gooder. But help is needed for the sake of just having some humanity.

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By *dwalu2Couple
over a year ago

Bristol

"Like most of my points, it's a simple statement of fact.

I have this annoying thing called 'work' that I'm occasionally called upon to do.

I'll pick the debate up later.

Assuming you haven't all solved it in the meantime by 'sending them all back where they came from'.

That's kinda my point, the Left are always keen to offer platitudes, but all these people want is actual help. Soundbites are always easier to provide than solutions."

The left also provide solutions rather than platitudes, but all people want is to make vapid assertions.

Generalisations are always easier to provide than actual facts.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

[Removed by poster at 03/09/15 10:33:46]

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"There are enough people in our OWN country that are in need of help.

Ex service personnel - these people that have served our country that need help with things such as artificial limbs,help with depression,housing etc etc.

What about these poor young teens that have run away from home because of abuse that are living on the streets - give them help.

Or cancer patients that need certain meds that ere 'too expensive' ????

How about seeing that are OWN people are cared for before worrying about others

we already waste too much money on foreign aid.

All a matter of getting our priorities correct.

So, taking it logically, your point is that every person in the UK should be completely financially secure before we help a single foreign person fleeing war or persecution?

Nice.

YEP

Hitler had it right - see to his own people first

Wow, did you actually think that was a good/funny thing to say? What about all the innocent people who died while he 'saw to his own people' (which, by the way, he didn't actually do anyway!)

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Refugees - Help, then return or employ

Immigrants (legal) - No help, if they didn't come to work then they can go home. but build up entitlement over years.

Immigrants (illegal) Arrest, process and return at their expense.

Borderline cases... cleverer people need to decide

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By *inaTitzTV/TS
over a year ago

Titz Towers, North Notts

Help. We are all human.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Close the loop holes that allow big company to avoid paying tax, help them out and stop spreading hate in the media.

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By *erbyDalesCplCouple
over a year ago

Derbyshire

"Generalisations are always easier to provide than actual facts."

Wasn't it Gordon Brown who, when asked why we couldn't have more investment in services and housing, in order to reduce the pressure from immigration, simply replied "Bigot"?

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By *dwalu2Couple
over a year ago

Bristol

"Generalisations are always easier to provide than actual facts.

Wasn't it Gordon Brown who, when asked why we couldn't have more investment in services and housing, in order to reduce the pressure from immigration, simply replied "Bigot"?

If it was, what's your point?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Close the loop holes that allow big company to avoid paying tax, help them out and stop spreading hate in the media.

The tax thing is another media stir up line.

Companies legally avoid paying excess tax by placing their offices in countries that charge less, but they still pay employees tax, NI contributions, VAT and many other taxes in this or any other country they work in, so net gain not loss.

We all do it, If you get given a tenner for helping someone out do you send £4 to the taxman? if not why not? if someone buys you a drink, dinner whatever that is a benefit received, you should pay tax on it. but I bet you don't... if the media targeted you then yes the numbers are smaller, but the exploits are pretty much the same.

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By *iamondjoeMan
over a year ago

Glastonbury

"Generalisations are always easier to provide than actual facts.

Wasn't it Gordon Brown who, when asked why we couldn't have more investment in services and housing, in order to reduce the pressure from immigration, simply replied "Bigot"?

It think you're having a senior moment.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/8649012.stm

I hope the general quality of your argument is better than your memory.

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

"Another thread to cause a problem the do gooders will be ready to pounce on any one that says don,t help hey how can anyone take seriously a thread when many of the pics from people involved are cocks breasts and pussies of course we should help but so should all the other EU countries ,they want to come here because we are open to abuse ,we are a nation that turns the other cheek and hasn't it bit us in the bum

I'd probably research how many other countries take more refugees and immigrants than us. And not in your subscription of the daily make.

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By *erbyDalesCplCouple
over a year ago

Derbyshire

"Generalisations are always easier to provide than actual facts.

Wasn't it Gordon Brown who, when asked why we couldn't have more investment in services and housing, in order to reduce the pressure from immigration, simply replied "Bigot"?

If it was, what's your point?"

I was meant to be replying to the bit about 'the left having all the answers', but I got a bit carried away and deleted the wrong bit

My overall point is that we do need to help, but it isn't as simple as some people like to pretend.

Just last week we had a farmer complaining he wasn't being paid enough for his milk, today we are being told there is plenty to go around, he should give it away for free.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Help to the best of our ability, of course. We're all humans, EVERYONE on this planet deserves help and care, it's a simple case of having bloody compassion, regardless of nationality, religion, skin colour, whatever.

And what _iamondjoe's said. He is on form this morning!

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

"Close the loop holes that allow big company to avoid paying tax, help them out and stop spreading hate in the media.

Now THIS is the real battle that needs to be won. Big organisations evade hundreds of billions in tax. Guess what our debt in the UK is?

We're controlled by a government who are controlled by big companies. Doesn't bode well.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

When does a chancer become a legitimate asylum seeker?

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By *L RogueMan
over a year ago

London

"Close the loop holes that allow big company to avoid paying tax, help them out and stop spreading hate in the media.

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By *iamondjoeMan
over a year ago

Glastonbury

"Generalisations are always easier to provide than actual facts.

Wasn't it Gordon Brown who, when asked why we couldn't have more investment in services and housing, in order to reduce the pressure from immigration, simply replied "Bigot"?

It think you're having a senior moment.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/8649012.stm

I hope the general quality of your argument is better than your memory.

*taps foot*

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By *iamondjoeMan
over a year ago

Glastonbury

(really *must* do some work...)

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By *abioMan
over a year ago

Newcastle and Gateshead

"Refugees - Help, then return or employ

Immigrants (legal) - No help, if they didn't come to work then they can go home. but build up entitlement over years.

Immigrants (illegal) Arrest, process and return at their expense.

Borderline cases... cleverer people need to decide "

okay then... if that is your template....

what about people from syria.... they are fleeing from civil war, and from assad on one side... and isis on the other.... which definition do they fall under? because as someone else said...if there were bombs falling on my house, and isis potentially looking at coming in... i would leave without thought

i think we have to get out of the notion of saying people want to come here just to claim benefits... because that really isn't true, and the dirty truth is they do a lot of the jobs that british people see as being beneath them

if you have a look at a long of the pictures.. it the young and younger families that are making the journeys, the old aren't fit enough to risk it......

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"(really *must* do some work...)"

But you're making too many good points, don't give up now!

Plus it's a great distraction from my own work at the moment

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"There is a big difference between refugees and immigrants.

Do we help refugees? Yes

Do we allow in any more financial immigrants? No.

Industry should invest more in training. That goes from the top premiership football clubs and financial institutions all the way down to Indian restaurants not training their own chefs.

C...

Pretty much sums up my _iew. "

I agree

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Refugees - Help, then return or employ

Immigrants (legal) - No help, if they didn't come to work then they can go home. but build up entitlement over years.

Immigrants (illegal) Arrest, process and return at their expense.

Borderline cases... cleverer people need to decide

Agree with you here, my dad works in a greenhouse (growing food for wholesale companies) and the majority of those working with him are foreign. Working their arses of daily, little pay and ridiculous hours.

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By *iamondjoeMan
over a year ago

Glastonbury

"(really *must* do some work...)

But you're making too many good points, don't give up now!

Plus it's a great distraction from my own work at the moment "

It's not about giving up - it's about using my time more productively.

I do not genuinely believe that any one of these threads has ever made anyone change their mind or think, hmm, maybe... possibly, I got that wrong?

It's just people shouting at one another through the void.

Too much heat, not enough light.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Refugees - Help, then return or employ

Immigrants (legal) - No help, if they didn't come to work then they can go home. but build up entitlement over years.

Immigrants (illegal) Arrest, process and return at their expense.

Borderline cases... cleverer people need to decide

okay then... if that is your template....

what about people from syria.... they are fleeing from civil war, and from assad on one side... and isis on the other.... which definition do they fall under? "

Very clearly refugees I would say, wouldn't you? Those from Libya too

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By *erbyDalesCplCouple
over a year ago

Derbyshire

*taps foot*"

I don't get it, it was Brown, (which I knew all along obvs)

Just like it was Ed Milliband banging on about the numbers of immigrants the coalition let in.

I can't really add more than my comment to Edwardu above

(Ps sorry for being tardy, but I was trying to work too

)

Besides, you never answered any of my points....

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By *arlock69Man
over a year ago

Batley... (near Leeds)

If the UK,US,EU stopped invading all these countries with pathetic excuses like WMD and ISIS then there wouldn't be the mass refugee crisis that there is now.

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By *iamondjoeMan
over a year ago

Glastonbury

*taps foot*

I don't get it, it was Brown, (which I knew all along obvs)

Just like it was Ed Milliband banging on about the numbers of immigrants the coalition let in.

I can't really add more than my comment to Edwardu above

(Ps sorry for being tardy, but I was trying to work too

)

Besides, you never answered any of my points...."

*CObullshitFFS*

Sorry, what was that?

Something in my throat there...

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I was talking about this to a friend this morning, and after reading all of the above posts, I tried to imagine what it would be like if I were the refugee.

There are pro's and con's that I took into consideration:

Yes I would want my family to get away from any danger.

Yes I would want to go to a country that my family would prosper.

To get on the boats or to travel you would need a certain amount of money to travel the distance they have.

Wouldn't it be better to travel somewhere that didn't put your families lives at risk?

The people that are hiring the boats are making profits from these people, why aren't they being punished and the boats

As heartbreaking as it is. Is the photo of the child being used as Propaganda?

If the situation has become too extreme, why haven't the EU allowed the armies to get involved?

Are we fighting a losing battle?

I also think that some of the comments made about helping our own are also true, for instance for the elderly of our country that have worked and fought for this country to be treated like a piece of shit within the nhs, nursing homes and also by some of the community (but that's another topic or debate).

I don't know if I'm right or wrong, but I sure as hell would do whatever it took to keep my family safe from such violence and torture. DG

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By *iamondjoeMan
over a year ago

Glastonbury

*taps foot*

I don't get it, it was Brown, (which I knew all along obvs)

Just like it was Ed Milliband banging on about the numbers of immigrants the coalition let in.

I can't really add more than my comment to Edwardu above

(Ps sorry for being tardy, but I was trying to work too

)

Besides, you never answered any of my points....

*CObullshitFFS*

Sorry, what was that?

Something in my throat there..."

My point was you were woefully mis-remembering one of the best recorded bloopers from the 2010 election.

If ya can't get that right... well..

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

Thank you for some very... Interesting _iews people. From my experience, everyone's opinion is shaped by where they grew up, their family, their education, friends and society in general. A whole big mix. It is possible to change people's _iews, but having a go at someone for having an opinion is wrong. They have that opinion for a reason. This is this case for everything. Not just this topic.

Thanks again guys. Get back to....whatever it is you all do.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Hi all,

Having a discussion for a project at work and would appreciate people's _iews as to whether we should help immigrants and refugees or leave them to fend for themselves?

Post away...

I've not read the thread. On the basis of the title I'd say help refugees and limit the number of immigrants.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Everyone deserves basic necessities to live a decent life. But where will be the cut off point? I know families that struggle every single day, they survive on handouts, their children wear our children's old clothes and we send round meals when we can. They work but it's not enough to live on month to month. So with money/housing etc spread even thinner how is everyone going to cope?

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By *erbyDalesCplCouple
over a year ago

Derbyshire

Besides, you never answered any of my points....

*CObullshitFFS*

Sorry, what was that?

Something in my throat there..."

Ahhh, the 'let's resort to insults instead of debating actual political points' argument.

With you now, Joe.

I'm sure the millions of refugees will sleep better now thanks to that little gem.

I'd better let you get on with your work...

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Not sure what the answer is or how to combat the problem but one things for sure it breaks my heart to see these desperate people each day just trying to get to safety , we are so lucky not to have their problems

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Reject as there county's became like they are because of the people that live there, so really the hosts country will end up the same. Better off fixing the problems in there country."

Have to agree with above help in their own country , we don't have the money or resources to keep letting thousands more people he who can offer our country nothing but debt in return . They have passed through enough safe countries to try and get hear ......waits to get jumped on

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Open flood gates let everyone in theirs loads of room for them all I don't need a job let's face it the NHS can cope ,we have plenty social housing to house them in ,our schools are empty let's educate them too oh and why not support them all ,its not about the people that built our system and paid into it anymore its about humanitarianism but bottom line is its about governments that don't look after their own

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"There are enough people in our OWN country that are in need of help.

Ex service personnel - these people that have served our country that need help with things such as artificial limbs,help with depression,housing etc etc.

What about these poor young teens that have run away from home because of abuse that are living on the streets - give them help.

Or cancer patients that need certain meds that ere 'too expensive' ????

How about seeing that are OWN people are cared for before worrying about others

we already waste too much money on foreign aid.

All a matter of getting our priorities correct.

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By *aneandpaulCouple
over a year ago

cleveleys

Why not all you people that feel so strongly that we are not doing enough go and find a few take them home give them a room go on TV showing the rest of us what its like to be so caring

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By *oodmessMan
over a year ago

yumsville

It is very difficult. The need to help those coming from war ravaged countries is obvious. Those coming from countries who's economies have collapsed wanting better lives is obvious, same with those from political and socio-cultual breakdown. However, and this is a consideration that may seem heartless given the baby on the beach; is giving an open door to all countries (as that is what it will be), with unlimited numbers, the appropriate response?

Yes people will stay in their country of origin as they will not have the means or desire to migrate, but for those who want change; can Europe cope with the influx countries (several) entering? If the answer is in sheer volume of numbers, the answer will be yes, if cultural change is considered, that might be a harder answer, as support systems are simply not there.

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By *iamondjoeMan
over a year ago

Glastonbury

*taps foot*

I don't get it, it was Brown, (which I knew all along obvs)

Just like it was Ed Milliband banging on about the numbers of immigrants the coalition let in.

I can't really add more than my comment to Edwardu above

(Ps sorry for being tardy, but I was trying to work too

)

Besides, you never answered any of my points....

*CObullshitFFS*

Sorry, what was that?

Something in my throat there...

My point was you were woefully mis-remembering one of the best recorded bloopers from the 2010 election.

If ya can't get that right... well.."

*taps foot*

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

We bring most of the problems on ourselves...we arm,meddle and support most of these regimes until they decide that they no longer want to be controlled by the western powers, then they become terrorists in our _iew...take the taliban in Afghanistan....we armed them in the 80s to get rid of the Russians..and now look whats happening over there...the weapons we gave are or were being used to kill and main western soldiers...we have to get it into our minds we cannot force democracy onto to them...it takes time to evolve.

No wonder we have these problems with refuges...im betting 9 out of 10 people would try to do the same thing as these poor people are doing given the same situation.

As for a post early from someone saying Hitler looked after his own people...i was flabbergasted with that statement...try telling that to the millions of mentally ill Germans he gassed or the Gypsies..or the political prisoners that objected to him and his dictatorship...i think the guy who posted needs a reality check

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

We are only a small island at the end of the day. It's nice to help but do we have the room???

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By *layfull pairingCouple
over a year ago

Bristol

Seems to me the vast majority of these immigrants/refugees are mainly fit and healthy young men between 18 & 30... Wearing nike sportswear and clutching smartphones.... I know this because there are already loads of them hanging around bristols shopping precincts during the day when they should be at work... And im sure some cities are much worse... . Do we really need, or can we really afford, loads more ? simply my own observation from where i live.

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By *aneandpaulCouple
over a year ago

cleveleys

Playful Pairing very true but so many with tunnel vision

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By *nnyMan
over a year ago

Glasgow

"We are only a small island at the end of the day. It's nice to help but do we have the room??? "

I know we're using 'room' as shorthand but what we really need is resources - school places, hospital beds, housing and so on.

These are already in short supply.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Seems to me the vast majority of these immigrants/refugees are mainly fit and healthy young men between 18 & 30... Wearing nike sportswear and clutching smartphones.... I know this because there are already loads of them hanging around bristols shopping precincts during the day when they should be at work... And im sure some cities are much worse... . Do we really need, or can we really afford, loads more ? simply my own observation from where i live. "

I think your missing the point..between immigrants and refuges...yes we should control immigration...pretty difficult now with EU rules....but no we should help these poor people out...the poor young boy washed up on the beach in Turkey didnt look like he was dressed in a shell suit

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By *iamondjoeMan
over a year ago

Glastonbury

I think we need a new Modest Proposal to keep you lot happy.

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

Some great _iews.

For my encore, a politics thread.

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By *iamondjoeMan
over a year ago

Glastonbury

"Some great _iews.

For my encore, a politics thread.

Oh no it isn't!

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By *iamondjoeMan
over a year ago

Glastonbury

A Modest Proposal for Preventing Refugees and Migrants From Being a Burden to Their Country, and for Making Them Beneficial to the Publick

*clears throat*

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By *iamondjoeMan
over a year ago

Glastonbury

That the impoverished Syrians and other refugees might ease their economic troubles by selling their children as food for rich gentlemen and ladies.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"There are enough people in our OWN country that are in need of help.

Ex service personnel - these people that have served our country that need help with things such as artificial limbs,help with depression,housing etc etc.

What about these poor young teens that have run away from home because of abuse that are living on the streets - give them help.

Or cancer patients that need certain meds that ere 'too expensive' ????

How about seeing that are OWN people are cared for before worrying about others

we already waste too much money on foreign aid.

All a matter of getting our priorities correct.

So, taking it logically, your point is that every person in the UK should be completely financially secure before we help a single foreign person fleeing war or persecution?

Nice.

YEP

Hitler had it right - see to his own people first

Wow, did you actually think that was a good/funny thing to say? What about all the innocent people who died while he 'saw to his own people' (which, by the way, he didn't actually do anyway!)"

So the Hitler fan apparently cares about our armed services!!!

Give me a break

#populistbullshit

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By *heOwlMan
over a year ago

Altrincham

"Help. It's very simple.

But it quickly gets complicated when you ask 'how?'

Mr ddc

I don't have time right now. But the simple fact of the matter is there is more than enough on this planet for *everyone* to enjoy:-

* housing

* clothing

* food

* water & sanitation

* education

More than enough.

It's just these pesky brown people somehow keep getting left behind and thenm to make it worse, keep washing up (metaphorically and literally atm) on European shores.

To all the nay-sayers: Would you have sent Jewish refugee in the late 30s back to Germany?

I agree. There is enough to go round. That's the biggest con in all of this!"

Ghandi once said: The world has enough for everyones need but not enough for for everyones greed.

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By *layfull pairingCouple
over a year ago

Bristol

Another thought....all you lovely, nice, charitable people who maintain that "we" should help.... Would you personally sponsor a refugee/immigrant to cover his/her living costs here ? Maybe put one up in your spare room and feed and cloth them ? Maybe be happy for government to impose an extra few percent on your tax bill to cover the costs ? its nice to try and claim the moral high ground...until it starts costing you personally....

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Help. It's very simple. "
. and incredibly naive,we have limited resources,seems to me most trying to get in are illegal immigrants coming to better their financial situation,fair play for trying,but we dont have to be mugs by letting them,I don't want to see Britain become some third world country as some parts already have,reject them full stop.

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By *phroditeWoman
over a year ago

(She/ her) in Sensualityland

"I don't know what the answer is but waking up and seeing the picture of the wee boy on the beach has just broken my heart

"
I could not agree more.

I continue to be puzzled by the following: Humans, all humans except those with psychopathic personality profiles (and this would follow a proper psychological diagnosis so is not aimed at anybody on this thread!) ... are equipped with a modicum of empathy for others. In fact even animals are able to display empathy.

Where is this empathy when looking at what happens with people in genuine need?

I said yesterday on another thread that I can only explain this as that people do see what is going on, have empathy but choose to look away because it may be too painful to even think about it and it would mean they could not simply turn away?

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By *ouple in LancashireCouple
over a year ago

in Lancashire

"Another thread to cause a problem the do gooders will be ready to pounce on any one that says don,t help "

would you want the same sort of help from one of the do gooders where you or yours to have an accident, physical trauma etc or would you think they should just look the other way as its not their business..?

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By *iamondjoeMan
over a year ago

Glastonbury

"Help. It's very simple. . and incredibly naive,we have limited resources,seems to me most trying to get in are illegal immigrants coming to better their financial situation,fair play for trying,but we dont have to be mugs by letting them,I don't want to see Britain become some third world country as some parts already have,reject them full stop."

You can go back to where you came from n' all

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By *phroditeWoman
over a year ago

(She/ her) in Sensualityland

"Another thought....all you lovely, nice, charitable people who maintain that "we" should help.... Would you personally sponsor a refugee/immigrant to cover his/her living costs here ? Maybe put one up in your spare room and feed and cloth them ? Maybe be happy for government to impose an extra few percent on your tax bill to cover the costs ? its nice to try and claim the moral high ground...until it starts costing you personally...."

And how do you know that this is not happening already but people do not brag about it? Just a thought.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Actually yes i would...and i do donate monthly through a direct debit...but theres a saying in this world..you reap what you sow...and lets get one thing straight these are NOT immigrants THERE refugees from something were aiding and abetting in !!!

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By *irtyGirlWoman
over a year ago

Edinburgh

I don't have a spare room but you can bet your ass I'd have given that kid my bed if it saved him from death.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

It needs the government to grant refugee status, so that they can work for a living, but sure a Syrian family are welcome to start their stay in my house, don't forget they are often skilled professional people that will soon be working somewhere, it takes a driven person to get from a war zone to Calais.

But see my post above about economic immigrants legal or illegal they don't get to stay in my home.

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By *ouple in LancashireCouple
over a year ago

in Lancashire

yes..

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By *aneandpaulCouple
over a year ago

cleveleys

[Removed by poster at 03/09/15 12:02:12]

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By *oo hotCouple
over a year ago

North West

Let me repeat from a previous thread. 4,000,000 (4 million) have been displaced from Syria. These people had Assad bombing them on one side and Daesh beheaders hunting them down on the other side. 99% of those people are in squalid refugee camps in bordering Turkey, Lebanon, Egypt and Jordan. There are probably also hundreds of thousands, if not millions more displaced people from Iraq and Libya fleeing the murderous Daesh terrorists. Remember that OUR tax money directly created this mess by removing powerful Dictators who kept the lid on religious fanaticism within their own borders.

The young men are leaving their families in search of a better life to bring their families to. This has happened in times of trouble for as long as humans have been on earth.

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By *irtyGirlWoman
over a year ago

Edinburgh

"Dirty Girl give a kid a bed on your on a sex site you might be getting your self in trouble there be careful what you sday"

Are you fucking serious?!

Like really? Did you just say that out loud?

You are a poor excuse for a human being and quite frankly I've got nothing else to say that even remotely describes my feelings on you.

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By *irtyGirlWoman
over a year ago

Edinburgh

"[Removed by poster at 03/09/15 12:02:12]"

Too slow.

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By *aneandpaulCouple
over a year ago

cleveleys

Dirty Girl meant as a joke sorry did not mean to offend

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Send them back,it will be a logistical nightmare but it needs to be done,feel free to slate me i couldnt care less

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Dirty Girl meant as a joke sorry did not mean to offend "

It actually didnt come over that way tbh...maybe think before opening mouth comes to mind lol...and no offense meant here either

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I find it difficult to understand that other human beings will turn there backs on these people and use words like do Gooders . This is a thread for people's _iews not critsize if someone is prepared to help or would help

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Yes, yes I would.

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By *phroditeWoman
over a year ago

(She/ her) in Sensualityland

"I find it difficult to understand that other human beings will turn there backs on these people and use words like do Gooders . This is a thread for people's _iews not critsize if someone is prepared to help or would help "

Absolutely agree and to be honest, it does not bother me what other people call me or how they think of me. As long as I know I am arguing for the right cause, as long as I know I am doing something to help it feels the right thing to continue doing.

By the way, I learnt that soe European countries including Germany are happy to integrate refugees as many of them are highly qualified people so actually it can work out at the economic level, too.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Dirty Girl meant as a joke sorry did not mean to offend

It actually didnt come over that way tbh...maybe think before opening mouth comes to mind lol...and no offense meant here either

There will always be somebody that will have a go at you on here i find it funny

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

By the way, I learnt that soe European countries including Germany are happy to integrate refugees as many of them are highly qualified people so actually it can work out at the economic level, too. "

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By *heOwlMan
over a year ago

Altrincham

"There are enough people in our OWN country that are in need of help.

Ex service personnel - these people that have served our country that need help with things such as artificial limbs,help with depression,housing etc etc.

What about these poor young teens that have run away from home because of abuse that are living on the streets - give them help.

Or cancer patients that need certain meds that ere 'too expensive' ????

How about seeing that are OWN people are cared for before worrying about others

we already waste too much money on foreign aid.

All a matter of getting our priorities correct.

So, taking it logically, your point is that every person in the UK should be completely financially secure before we help a single foreign person fleeing war or persecution?

Nice.

YEP

Hitler had it right - see to his own people first

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By *untimegeekMan
over a year ago

Havant

"YEP

Hitler had it right - see to his own people first

Are you *actually* shitting me?

Loooooool

Everybody point and laugh!"

Too true so many do-gooders in this country haven't got a clue about real life and most only say on forums and in public what they feel or expect people want to hear rather than their true thoughts. The amount of social workers that fuck up peoples lives with their do good theoretical attitudes is quite outstanding

So let's just let everyone in regardless

then every town and city can have gangs of professional beggars earning more than the average wage, whilst claiming benefits.

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By *L RogueMan
over a year ago

London

British Red Cross supporter!

And since tax money has played a part in the chaos and displacement of many of these people's lives. what's a few extra pounds to clear up the mess?

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

To those who feel MOST are coming her for financial gain, I understand your point of _iew as this is all that's in the media. It creates emotion in us, patriotism.

Go do some research for yourselves from reputable sources, not newspapers (think who the media works in best interest for). You may change your opinion, you may not. But at least you'll be better equipped to have a knowledgeable opinion.

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By *phroditeWoman
over a year ago

(She/ her) in Sensualityland

"There are enough people in our OWN country that are in need of help.

Ex service personnel - these people that have served our country that need help with things such as artificial limbs,help with depression,housing etc etc.

What about these poor young teens that have run away from home because of abuse that are living on the streets - give them help.

Or cancer patients that need certain meds that ere 'too expensive' ????

How about seeing that are OWN people are cared for before worrying about others

we already waste too much money on foreign aid.

All a matter of getting our priorities correct.

So, taking it logically, your point is that every person in the UK should be completely financially secure before we help a single foreign person fleeing war or persecution?

Nice.

YEP

Hitler had it right - see to his own people first

Couple of wee problems with this. Firstly, rather a lot of his own people ended up in mass graves just because they had a different outlook on life. Then secondly he proceeded to invade as many countries as possible, which was not in the best interests of his people - it literally split the country for 50 years."
Sorry I really don't mean to divert from the serious content of your message - but it did make me chuckle how you condensed history into this small paragraph. A bit like the "Horrible History Books"

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By *phroditeWoman
over a year ago

(She/ her) in Sensualityland

"To those who feel MOST are coming her for financial gain, I understand your point of _iew as this is all that's in the media. It creates emotion in us, patriotism.

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By *oo hotCouple
over a year ago

North West

British Red Cross supporter!

And since tax money has played a part in the chaos and displacement of many of these people's lives. what's a few extra pounds to clear up the mess?"

This is absolutely true. We caused the mess and therefore have a legal, moral and ethical obligation to sort out the consequences.

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By *abioMan
over a year ago

Newcastle and Gateshead

"Dirty Girl give a kid a bed on your on a sex site you might be getting your self in trouble there be careful what you sday

Are you fucking serious?!

Like really? Did you just say that out loud?

You are a poor excuse for a human being and quite frankly I've got nothing else to say that even remotely describes my feelings on you. "

I'm glad you caught it in time before they removed it.... god that is in poor taste to think that anyone would find that remotely acceptable in the first place......

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

This isn't a point about whether we should help or not, but i take exception with idea "we" created the problems they are fleeing from.

Anyone who seriously believes this would do well to read non-partisan analysis of the subject such as "why nations fail" by Acemoglu & Robinson or "the Bottom Billion" by Paul Collier.

Allow me to demostrate:

Imagine if we did an experiment. We take two poor countries with the same geography, same language, same history, some income levels, same education - same everything. Then we give one of them a good government and one of them a bad government.

In 50-years would the government factor make a difference or would they both still be poor? In other words - are their problems within their own grasp to solve?

Now go look at North and South Korea and that's your answer.

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By *layfull pairingCouple
over a year ago

Bristol

There does seem to be a lot of people who are awfully keen to help....

Offering cash....offering accomodation in their own houses.... Etc.....

Have u ever considered the adoption lists of children already in this country looking for a home...or the kids/young adults looking for foster parents or a safe enviroment to live in...or the many homeless already on our streets....children and adults.... I assume you are all long term supporters of these vunerable people too & have one living in your spare room ? Maybe you work on a voluntary soup kitchen ?

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By *abioMan
over a year ago

Newcastle and Gateshead

"To those who feel MOST are coming her for financial gain, I understand your point of _iew as this is all that's in the media. It creates emotion in us, patriotism.

the issue is that the media (well the newspapers) are fuelling their own case to put forward their own narrative... dirty foreigners coming over here, stealing our jobs... bloody immigrants...

so let me put forward another example which is a lot closer to home for me...

my mum and her side of the family come from a small carribean island called montserrat..... now, 15 years ago a volcano that had been dormant for 500 years came back to life and basically made half the island uninhabitable and forced 2/3 of the islands population to flee....

a lot of people has family and relatives in the UK as it is an british overseas territory so where do you think most of those people wanted to come to..... the UK

and about 7000 ish came... and they didn't claim benefits, most got jobs and went to school here, and are still being productive members of society here

would you have treated these people as refugees (who lost everything thru no fault of their own) the same as a lot of people who have treated now? you could have put them in refugee camps in the next island over i suppose!

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By *iamondjoeMan
over a year ago

Glastonbury

I think some of the _iew espoused on this thread are actually disgusting and some people should be ashamed of themselves.

Just a personal preference. I'll probably need some patience.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

As uk is a island, it cant cope with mass immigration, as we are already struggling for housing, where would they live?.

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By *oo hotCouple
over a year ago

North West

"This isn't a point about whether we should help or not, but i take exception with idea "we" created the problems they are fleeing from.

Anyone who seriously believes this would do well to read non-partisan analysis of the subject such as "why nations fail" by Acemoglu & Robinson or "the Bottom Billion" by Paul Collier.

Allow me to demostrate:

In 50-years would the government factor make a difference or would they both still be poor? In other words - are their problems within their own grasp to solve?

Now go look at North and South Korea and that's your answer. "

Rubbish.

We directly created the power vacuum by removing Saddam and installing a weak Shia led Government in Baghdad. Further, we have armed anti Assad rebels who have since collaborated with ISIS and more recently we got rid of Gaddafi.

These actions have directly resulted in the ability of IS to seize vast swathes of land in Syria, Iraq and Libya.

These people are fleeing IS and we enabled IS to flourish.

Your books talk about a theory but this history is so recent and so obvious that the consequences of our well intentioned actions have been disastrous for millions of people.

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By *phroditeWoman
over a year ago

(She/ her) in Sensualityland

"To those who feel MOST are coming her for financial gain, I understand your point of _iew as this is all that's in the media. It creates emotion in us, patriotism.

the issue is that the media (well the newspapers) are fuelling their own case to put forward their own narrative... dirty foreigners coming over here, stealing our jobs... bloody immigrants...

so let me put forward another example which is a lot closer to home for me...

a lot of people has family and relatives in the UK as it is an british overseas territory so where do you think most of those people wanted to come to..... the UK

and about 7000 ish came... and they didn't claim benefits, most got jobs and went to school here, and are still being productive members of society here

I fully support what you are saying - perhaps it is difficult to see that unless you have been a refugee or know somebody personally who has been.

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By *phroditeWoman
over a year ago

(She/ her) in Sensualityland

"There does seem to be a lot of people who are awfully keen to help....

Offering cash....offering accomodation in their own houses.... Etc.....

Perhaps some of us are supporters of vulnerable people, some of us do work in soup kitchens.

There are a lot of assumptions being made about what people are prepared to do for others, or rather, as the case may be, what people are not doing.

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By *ouple in LancashireCouple
over a year ago

in Lancashire

"We directly created the power vacuum by removing Saddam and installing a weak Shia led Government in Baghdad. Further, we have armed anti Assad rebels who have since collaborated with ISIS and more recently we got rid of Gaddafi.

These actions have directly resulted in the ability of IS to seize vast swathes of land in Syria, Iraq and Libya.

These people are fleeing IS and we enabled IS to flourish.

Your books talk about a theory but this history is so recent and so obvious that the consequences of our well intentioned actions have been disastrous for millions of people."

this..

and with this still fairly recent fuck up of a foreign policy the history books have yet to be scribed and when they are they will be less than gracious to some 'leader's and ex leader's'..

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"This isn't a point about whether we should help or not, but i take exception with idea "we" created the problems they are fleeing from.

Anyone who seriously believes this would do well to read non-partisan analysis of the subject such as "why nations fail" by Acemoglu & Robinson or "the Bottom Billion" by Paul Collier.

Allow me to demostrate:

In 50-years would the government factor make a difference or would they both still be poor? In other words - are their problems within their own grasp to solve?

Now go look at North and South Korea and that's your answer.

Rubbish.

These actions have directly resulted in the ability of IS to seize vast swathes of land in Syria, Iraq and Libya.

These people are fleeing IS and we enabled IS to flourish.

Your books talk about a theory but this history is so recent and so obvious that the consequences of our well intentioned actions have been disastrous for millions of people."

Sure! - agree actually, but what you're talking about is exacerbating an existing problem, not creating a new one. I do believe there were plenty of refugees who wanted to get away from Saddam & Gaddafi long before the events you're talking about.

Sure our interventions sometimes make things worse, sometimes they make it a lot better (e.g. Kosovo) but I don't remember when we last intervened in a country that wasn't already screwed before we got there? It's the term 'created' I dislike...

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

They who went on the train is going to refugee camps.

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By *ethnmelvCouple
over a year ago

Cardiff

Clearly we should do all we can to help people who are refugees of IS and the disaster they are creating in Africa and the Middle East.

The challenge we have to face is that it will not be solved by purely accepting limitless resetlement of refugees in Europe (UK included!)

The is a global problem, that needs UN leadership to solve. The problem to solve is the one of national warfare spreading across borders. Most people are perfectly happy to stay in their own country if it is safe, secure and enables them to eat, educate, work, worship as they please.

I am not going to get into whether Balkan, Iraq, Afghanistan, Libyan, Syrian intervention was right or wrong. Pointing the finger at people in the past achieves very little in terms of solving this problem.

What I think we need is to re-build the countries that people are fleeing from, to recognise it will be costly (in terms of money and sadly also lives, indeed many are already being lost) but the problem has to be fixed at source. It also needs us to see this as an investment as otherwise we simply absorb more and more people fleeing brutal regimes.

So yes help people all we can, but i don't for one minute think this is going to be resolved without some form of intervention..., as appalling as this may sound

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By *abioMan
over a year ago

Newcastle and Gateshead

"They who went on the train is going to refugee camps. "

the pictures sky are showing are really sad.......

i don't think the people ar the station realise at the moment that the authorities have stopped all international trains at the moment... (there is normally one for munich every 2 hours...)

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By *phroditeWoman
over a year ago

(She/ her) in Sensualityland

"Clearly we should do all we can to help people who are refugees of IS and the disaster they are creating in Africa and the Middle East.

The challenge we have to face is that it will not be solved by purely accepting limitless resetlement of refugees in Europe (UK included!)

So yes help people all we can, but i don't for one minute think this is going to be resolved without some form of intervention..., as appalling as this may sound

This is the first comment I have seen (and I may have missed some, apologies if I have) where there is a concrete suggestion ie to rebuild the countries.

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By *ystersMan
over a year ago

London

We should do more. We are doing less than many other European countries (http://i100.independent.co.uk/article/what-this-german-football-club-just-did-highlights-britains-shameful-record-on-refugees--ZkXGpcz8Hg - scroll down for table).

Immigrants do not give up homes, families, savings and travel thousands of dangerous miles in order to lounge around on benefits. I have come across many migrant families in my work, and the vast majority want to get on and work hard.

At the same time we should invest and support countries from which people are migrating, obviously by supporting good governance.

It shouldn't take such awful images that we have seen this morning for people to demand that something is done; this is a massive problem that cannot be ignored.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"They who went on the train is going to refugee camps.

the pictures sky are showing are really sad.......

i don't think the people ar the station realise at the moment that the authorities have stopped all international trains at the moment... (there is normally one for munich every 2 hours...)"
That's right, was pretty sad that, it reminds me of ww2, with them camps thinking they went to Germany but they didn't, instead to camps.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Clearly we should do all we can to help people who are refugees of IS and the disaster they are creating in Africa and the Middle East.

The challenge we have to face is that it will not be solved by purely accepting limitless resetlement of refugees in Europe (UK included!)

So yes help people all we can, but i don't for one minute think this is going to be resolved without some form of intervention..., as appalling as this may sound

So much truth and then you blew it by saying the UN needs solve this! The UN's track record of helping refugees is absolutely shameful, 800,000 Rwandans would agree if they could. Don't get me started on Ethiopia and Congo.

UN moves too slowly, doesn't have the resources or the balls to solve this. Sorry to say. I wish they did.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

If they can speak English and actually do something productive, help.

If not, reject

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By *yrdwomanWoman
over a year ago

Putting the 'cum' in Eboracum

"Reject as there county's became like they are because of the people that live there, so really the hosts country will end up the same. Better off fixing the problems in there country."

Actually a lot of these countries became the way they are due to funding or sanctions applied by the richer countries like the US, Russia, and, err, us. We can't just so 'Oh dear, how sad'and turn away. We have some responsibility here.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

The pictures that have come to light this last 24 / 48 hours are truly harrowing. The last time the world did nothing we saw pictures of concentration camps filled with the Jewish community. These people wouldn’t even get treated that way if they stayed in Syria. They are wiped of the planet without a second thought. Pictures of children washing up on beaches and hundreds of people trying to climb over each other to get on a train, some almost pushing children in through open windows! How can the modern world turn away?? The government petition website has over 100 thousand signatures so government will have to debate it. Im not sure clicking on it and signing it has helped, but I tried to do a tiny insignificant something.

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By *livertwistMan
over a year ago

bolton

Simple answer HUMANITY

Do u realise it could be you, but we all lucky enough.

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By *anchestercubMan
over a year ago

manchester & NI

"There are enough people in our OWN country that are in need of help.

Ex service personnel - these people that have served our country that need help with things such as artificial limbs,help with depression,housing etc etc.

What about these poor young teens that have run away from home because of abuse that are living on the streets - give them help.

Or cancer patients that need certain meds that ere 'too expensive' ????

How about seeing that are OWN people are cared for before worrying about others

we already waste too much money on foreign aid.

All a matter of getting our priorities correct.

So, taking it logically, your point is that every person in the UK should be completely financially secure before we help a single foreign person fleeing war or persecution?

Nice.

YEP

Hitler had it right - see to his own people first

Can't explain how much that disgusts me.

Wow, what a slap in the face to all those who died in WW2.

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By *ethnmelvCouple
over a year ago

Cardiff

"Clearly we should do all we can to help people who are refugees of IS and the disaster they are creating in Africa and the Middle East.

The challenge we have to face is that it will not be solved by purely accepting limitless resetlement of refugees in Europe (UK included!)

So yes help people all we can, but i don't for one minute think this is going to be resolved without some form of intervention..., as appalling as this may sound

UN moves too slowly, doesn't have the resources or the balls to solve this. Sorry to say. I wish they did. "

I agree the UN is patently useless, but the alternative of a US or EU led solution on its own will not have the necessary global support and has the potential to position any intervention as the 'baddies'.

Wish I knew a better answer

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Unbelievable shit! its our right wing media that's brainwashing people! its quite simply a matter of compassion and humanity...someone referred to migrants as 'vermin' on another thread!! FFS they are human beings and desperate ones at that! If we were in their shoes we would all try to get a better safe life for ourselves and families so shut the eff up !

Just can't get the image of that little boy out of my head ....so so sad....

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By *iamondjoeMan
over a year ago

Glastonbury

This deffo needs a bump

Not enough outrage.

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By *oachman 9CoolMan
over a year ago

derby

"Clearly we should do all we can to help people who are refugees of IS and the disaster they are creating in Africa and the Middle East.

The challenge we have to face is that it will not be solved by purely accepting limitless resetlement of refugees in Europe (UK included!)

So yes help people all we can, but i don't for one minute think this is going to be resolved without some form of intervention..., as appalling as this may sound

"
Yes I agree with what you say and there have always been brutal Regimes to fuel this problem but of Course the numbers of refugees have grown over the years from such places, these brutal regimes over time have caused mayhem where ever they are in the world if not for them we would not Have the problems we have in the world Or nearer to home, thou I cannot see another solution to Intervention have We the resources long term to deal with that? because we are in fact trying to solve these problems by ourselves then, we would need a International effort from around the World to help, because if its not handled properly it could soon escalate into something far bigger, and all these regimes no doubt will have radicals and crazys wanting to Exact revenge in reprisal,s like they often do in the world, but I do agree while ever evil exists it will always Cause mayhem from one source or another if its big enough, what a better world it would be without such monsters in it we all know that, but presently we have got the refugee flood of people trying to get away from such monsters, these are different times and the Immigration Crisis shows this.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Clearly we should do all we can to help people who are refugees of IS and the disaster they are creating in Africa and the Middle East.

The challenge we have to face is that it will not be solved by purely accepting limitless resetlement of refugees in Europe (UK included!)

So yes help people all we can, but i don't for one minute think this is going to be resolved without some form of intervention..., as appalling as this may sound

UN moves too slowly, doesn't have the resources or the balls to solve this. Sorry to say. I wish they did.

Wish I knew a better answer

I don't mean to be depressing but the last time that region was peaceful for any meaningful period was when the ottoman empire ruled it. You won't like what they did to keep it peaceful...

Like it or not. In my opinion the 'answer' involves Saudi Arabia not the UN. Don't believe the media BS about them, yeah they aren't keep on women drivers - big whoop. The solution will come from within the region - they are the strongest military, an ally and they ain't Israel. They hate terrorists way more than we do (they have more to lose from it) and they have a much better track record of squashing domestic terrorism than us.

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By *iamondjoeMan
over a year ago

Glastonbury

Have all the right-wingers gone back to work?

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By *anchestercubMan
over a year ago

manchester & NI

Rubbish, the Saudis high-tailed it out of Yemen as soon as the going got rough with al-qaeda. They don't have the bottle.

Nothing will be done until the West does it.

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By *anchestercubMan
over a year ago

manchester & NI

"Have all the right-wingers gone back to work?

They do rotation; one hour commenting on the DM and then one hour on Fab, one hour on the Express and so on.....

They'll be back at 3pm

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By *L RogueMan
over a year ago

London

"This isn't a point about whether we should help or not, but i take exception with idea "we" created the problems they are fleeing from.

Anyone who seriously believes this would do well to read non-partisan analysis of the subject such as "why nations fail" by Acemoglu & Robinson or "the Bottom Billion" by Paul Collier.

Allow me to demostrate:

In 50-years would the government factor make a difference or would they both still be poor? In other words - are their problems within their own grasp to solve?

Now go look at North and South Korea and that's your answer.

Rubbish.

These actions have directly resulted in the ability of IS to seize vast swathes of land in Syria, Iraq and Libya.

These people are fleeing IS and we enabled IS to flourish.

Your books talk about a theory but this history is so recent and so obvious that the consequences of our well intentioned actions have been disastrous for millions of people.

You may not like the term "Created" but sadly that's what happened in some cases. It's never nice to feel indirectly responsible for things happening beyond our borders but Governments know best.

Back to thread, We're not the only country in the world taking refugees in. But we're definitely among the top few grumbling about it like it's a major strain. Sad!

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Rubbish, the Saudis high-tailed it out of Yemen as soon as the going got rough with al-qaeda. They don't have the bottle.

Nothing will be done until the West does it. "

Well rubbish right back at you!

I don't see how you can take 1 example that isn't even half a year old and claim the answer instead lies I'm with the West who haven't solved jack shit in the region in over 100 years of trying.

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By *iamondjoeMan
over a year ago

Glastonbury

"Have all the right-wingers gone back to work?

They do rotation; one hour commenting on the DM and then one hour on Fab, one hour on the Express and so on.....

They'll be back at 3pm

It's sad.

Oh well, in the meantime watch the last 10 mins of this (watch the whole thing, it's bloody brilliant, but the last 10 mins are pertinent).

Frankie Boyle's Election Autopsy

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/p02qs82x/frankie-boyles-election-autopsy

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By *L RogueMan
over a year ago

London

"Have all the right-wingers gone back to work?

They do rotation; one hour commenting on the DM and then one hour on Fab, one hour on the Express and so on.....

They'll be back at 3pm

It's sad.

Oh well, in the meantime watch the last 10 mins of this (watch the whole thing, it's bloody brilliant, but the last 10 mins are pertinent).

Frankie Boyle's Election Autopsy

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/p02qs82x/frankie-boyles-election-autopsy"

Love Akala. Legend!

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By *iamondjoeMan
over a year ago

Glastonbury

"Love Akala. Legend!

That nice white audience stopped fucking laughing then, didn't they?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Help, all said and done we have a lot going for us , god forbid but maybe one day we might need help .

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By *anchestercubMan
over a year ago

manchester & NI

"Have all the right-wingers gone back to work?

They do rotation; one hour commenting on the DM and then one hour on Fab, one hour on the Express and so on.....

They'll be back at 3pm

It's sad.

Oh well, in the meantime watch the last 10 mins of this (watch the whole thing, it's bloody brilliant, but the last 10 mins are pertinent).

Frankie Boyle's Election Autopsy

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/p02qs82x/frankie-boyles-election-autopsy"

I remember watching that at the time and thinking there will be people who just flatly deny that any of that is true.

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By *iewMan
Forum Mod
over a year ago

Angus & Findhorn

Help but I don't know the solution

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By *iamondjoeMan
over a year ago

Glastonbury

"I remember watching that at the time and thinking there will be people who just flatly deny that any of that is true. "

I sincerely hope so

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Open flood gates let everyone in theirs loads of room for them all I don't need a job let's face it the NHS can cope ,we have plenty social housing to house them in ,our schools are empty let's educate them too oh and why not support them all ,its not about the people that built our system and paid into it anymore its about humanitarianism but bottom line is its about governments that don't look after their own "

Tics feeding of a healthy animal.

We already have to many car washers and white van scrap people not paying there tax to help britan grow and flourish. Harsh but true they turned their country into what it is.

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By *oo hotCouple
over a year ago

North West

"Clearly we should do all we can to help people who are refugees of IS and the disaster they are creating in Africa and the Middle East.

The challenge we have to face is that it will not be solved by purely accepting limitless resetlement of refugees in Europe (UK included!)

So yes help people all we can, but i don't for one minute think this is going to be resolved without some form of intervention..., as appalling as this may sound

UN moves too slowly, doesn't have the resources or the balls to solve this. Sorry to say. I wish they did.

Wish I knew a better answer

I don't mean to be depressing but the last time that region was peaceful for any meaningful period was when the ottoman empire ruled it. You won't like what they did to keep it peaceful...

You want predominantly shia and/or other religious minorities to live in Saudi Arabia?

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By *oo hotCouple
over a year ago

North West

Tics feeding of a healthy animal.

We already have to many car washers and white van scrap people not paying there tax to help britan grow and flourish. Harsh but true they turned their country into what it is."

Wrong. We turned their country into what it is. It was not that long ago that you can't remember surely.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Clearly we should do all we can to help people who are refugees of IS and the disaster they are creating in Africa and the Middle East.

The challenge we have to face is that it will not be solved by purely accepting limitless resetlement of refugees in Europe (UK included!)

So yes help people all we can, but i don't for one minute think this is going to be resolved without some form of intervention..., as appalling as this may sound

UN moves too slowly, doesn't have the resources or the balls to solve this. Sorry to say. I wish they did.

Wish I knew a better answer

I don't mean to be depressing but the last time that region was peaceful for any meaningful period was when the ottoman empire ruled it. You won't like what they did to keep it peaceful...

You want predominantly shia and/or other religious minorities to live in Saudi Arabia?"

That's not what I said and to be honest I'm confused how you even got to that conclusion!

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By *anchestercubMan
over a year ago

manchester & NI

" Harsh but true they turned their country into what it is."

Are all the people of Northern Ireland responsible for the Troubles?

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By *L RogueMan
over a year ago

London

Tics feeding of a healthy animal.

We already have to many car washers and white van scrap people not paying there tax to help britan grow and flourish. Harsh but true they turned their country into what it is."

It's spelt "Ticks" but....Wow.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

YEP

Hitler had it right - see to his own people first

I have to say that I am horrified to have read this, and saddened.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

we have done enough and look where it has got us.

sympathy/empathy call it what you will.

these people have no respect for property or law or innocent peoples safety.

mellowdramatic dangerous fools. am i going to holiday in Kos ?

Am i fuck, not now.

i fear for the future of my kids

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By *iamondjoeMan
over a year ago

Glastonbury

YEP

Hitler had it right - see to his own people first

I have to say that I am horrified to have read this, and saddened. "

I know, right?

It's sommat else.

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By *L RogueMan
over a year ago

London

"Love Akala. Legend!

That nice white audience stopped fucking laughing then, didn't they?"

Bit of an eye opener!

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By *ouple in LancashireCouple
over a year ago

in Lancashire

[Removed by poster at 03/09/15 14:41:58]

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By *phroditeWoman
over a year ago

(She/ her) in Sensualityland

Again, an assumption that all refugees are ill educated and become car washers... not so! Many of them (unfortunately, often because they might have been a little better off than others in their own country before they were forced to leave to survive!)... may of them are very skilled, some have university degrees, speak several languages etc so can become employable within a few months. I have seen it! I know a few families where parents and children are not just bi - but trilingual, well mannered and educated!

Assumptions really do not help anybody!

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

There are plenty resources for everyone, we just need to become better at managing them.

A question for the people who think refugees should be sent back so the government can focus on 'our' homeless and problems with the NHS. What do you do to protest the government's funding cuts (you know, the cuts that are actually causing homelessness and problems with the NHS)?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Again, an assumption that all refugees are ill educated and become car washers... not so! Many of them (unfortunately, often because they might have been a little better off than others in their own country before they were forced to leave to survive!)... may of them are very skilled, some have university degrees, speak several languages etc so can become employable within a few months. I have seen it! I know a few families where parents and children are not just bi - but trilingual, well mannered and educated!

Assumptions really do not help anybody! "

Great post...its the reading of these right wing scare mongering newspapers that gives that _iew..not many on here will do jobs like they do

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By *phroditeWoman
over a year ago

(She/ her) in Sensualityland

And one more thing... again going back to the humane treatment of people...

I wonder what people must feel like having fled their own country, something noboy would do lightly especially with young children, to escape ISIS, then an arduous, uncertain journey through many many miles of unknown countries to arrive somewhere and be treated with toys for the children, food and shelter for all and a smile to say "Welcome"

I hope I never have to experience what they have experienced.

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By *irtyGirlWoman
over a year ago

Edinburgh

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/5-practical-ways-you-can-help-refugees-trying-to-find-safety-in-europe-10482902.html

Here's a lovely little article in the Independent for those of us 'do gooders' who are able to help from afar.

Some of the comments on this topic over the last couple of days have been utterly shameful. I understand that everyone is entitled to an opinion but take a moment to remove all the politics. The people (yes people) who need help, simply need help. They're facing horrendous traumas on a daily basis and the lack of any empathy from some of my fellow humans makes me ashamed to stand beside you.

Strip away the politics, would you stand by and watch someone drown in front of you when you had the power to save them? Would you check whether they have a UK passport before you got your feet wet? I'd like to think the answer to that is no, that you'd jump in and help them without question.

I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and (perhaps naively) continue to think that you wouldn't turn your back and walk away. That could be your loved one. Regardless of circumstances, if they were drowning you'd hope that someone who is able to help would help rather than stand by and watch.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Assumptions really do not help anybody! "

same as many english people who cannot get work then

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By *iamondjoeMan
over a year ago

Glastonbury

I'd just like to echo Dirty Girl's comments about some of the _iews being expressed here being utterly disgusting.

Some of you ought to be ashamed.

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By *iamondjoeMan
over a year ago

Glastonbury

It is repugnant to talk about people - humans like you - in some of the terms that have characterised this 'debate'.

It simply lazy, careless and inhumane.

"Am I not a man and a brother?"

Apparently not, no.

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By *iamondjoeMan
over a year ago

Glastonbury

Anyway, now that none of you can post back I could keep on slapping you all day long but there was a question in here somewhere...

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By *iamondjoeMan
over a year ago

Glastonbury

Anyway, now that none of you can post back I could keep on slapping you all day long but there was a question in here somewhere...

Ah yes...

"Having a discussion for a project at work and would appreciate people's _iews as to whether we should help immigrants and refugees or leave them to fend for themselves?"

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By *anchestercubMan
over a year ago

manchester & NI

We should do what we can.

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By *iamondjoeMan
over a year ago

Glastonbury

What can be done? The grim death toll in the Mediterranean has provoked a chorus of calls for action to prevent 2015 becoming the deadliest year for migrants trying to get to Europe.

But EU policymakers face a tangled knot of “push factors” – war, economic crisis, political repression and environmental degradation. They also need to deal with the “pull factors” – the muddle of disparate EU policy approaches that encourage migrants to take their chances.

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By *iamondjoeMan
over a year ago

Glastonbury

1/ Reinstate search-and-rescue

The Italian search-and-rescue operation, Mare Nostrum, saved more than 100,000 people in 12 months. Its replacement by a lesser EU force, Triton, in October prompted dire warnings of a jump in the number of deaths.

The predictions have come true. Most migrants are non-swimmers. Some have barely even seen the sea before. The southern Mediterranean is generally calm in the first part of summer, but can become stormy in late summer and the autumn.

Reinstating a proper, EU-wide search-and-rescue force would save lives and signal that Europe is not prepared to sacrifice its humanity for narrow gains in controlling immigration.

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By *iamondjoeMan
over a year ago

Glastonbury

2/ Agree standardised EU asylum rules

This is a much tougher ask. Illegal migration is not a level playing field in Europe. Southern EU states bear the brunt of the influx and feel they have had to shoulder the burden of dealing with a problem that should have a common European response.

There have been numerous proposals over the past decade from Brussels for more common and coordinated policies, ranging from “blue card” schemes modelled on the US green card system to making it easier for migrants to enter the EU legally.

But an EU-wide scheme is toxic for many national governments since it would entail a system of quotas and distributing refugees and people seeking asylum more equitably between EU member states.

Incumbent governments are scared of this since immigration is one of the most incendiary topics in the national politics of so many countries.

One draft paper from the centre-right bloc in Europe talks of introducing quotas for distributing migrants across the 28 countries according to a country’s size and its wealth, or depending on whether a certain “threshold” of refugees coming to a country has been exceeded.

Next month the European commission will unveil a European migration blueprint, tabling similar proposals. Governments may balk at this – unless more headlines of “Europe’s shame” convinces them that managed immigration is the lesser of two evils.

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By *iamondjoeMan
over a year ago

Glastonbury

3/ Deal with Libya

We are not going to be able to tackle migration until there is a Libyan government that we can at least work with EU member states have no contact with the Libyan authorities in charge of coastguard operations or internal security because the administration in Tripoli is not recognised internationally as the country’s legitimate government.

The result is that neither the EU nor individual European governments are allowed to cooperate or liaise with the bodies that are notionally dealing with the influx of migrants travelling through Libya.

In the past EU governments worked actively with local authorities in Misrata, Zawiya and Zuwara and other areas on or near the coast. The EU and US both support UN-led efforts to broker a ceasefire and create a broad national unity government.

“We’ve got to sort out the politics,” said one EU official. “We are not going to be able to tackle drugs or migration or weapons smuggling until there is a Libyan government that we can at least work with. It is taking a long time.”

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By *iamondjoeMan
over a year ago

Glastonbury

4/ Improve conditions in transit countries

Even if its war ended tomorrow, Libya would still be a difficult place to live as a refugee. “They’re treated as illegal migrants,” says Samer Haddadin, the head of the UN refugee agency’s mission in the country. Affording refugees the legal right to asylum that they are due under international law would give them an option other than the sea.

The situation could also be improved in neighbouring Egypt, another launching-pad for those trying to reach Europe by sea. The UN High Commission for Refugees (UNHCR) recently cut subsidies to many Syrian families, making it harder to survive in country where employment is scarce. The national conversation is also not kind to Syrians. Before the summer of 2013, very few Syrian refugees in Cairo even thought about leaving by boat. Syrians were welcomed by the government of the time and were given easy access to state schools and hospitals.

But after the Egyptian administration changed in July 2013, the climate soured, as Syrians were wrongly perceived to have sided with the ousted government. Xenophobia spiked, and access to government facilities was cancelled. An exodus by sea has since followed.

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By *iamondjoeMan
over a year ago

Glastonbury

5/ Tackle the smugglers

Wiping out the smuggling networks is an often-cited solution, but it won’t be the silver bullet that European politicians are hoping for.

Smuggling doesn’t just benefit a few individuals along the Libyan coast. It propels the economy of whole communities along the migrant trail through Libya and countries like Sudan and Mali to the south.

In Zuwara, the port that lies 60 miles from where hundreds of migrants went missing at the weekend, locals say it is the only source of income.

“We know it is cruel,” says a fuel smuggler who admits to ignoringthe people trafficking. “But we are benefiting from it financially and there is no other work.”

Locals make money from selling the boats, fitting them, driving the migrants to the shore, and for putting them up in empty properties before their voyage. Even some coastguards get a small cut, and those who don’t will lack the resources and institutional backing to make a difference.

Coastguards are under the jurisdiction of rival governments, and have just three vessels to patrol the vast shoreline from which most migrant boats to Italy leave.

Sustainable solutions involve uniting and strengthening law enforcement agencies, and creating real employment alternatives in smuggler towns. But in the short-term, the available tactics are more modest.

One local fisherman recommends that Italian coastguards ensure that intercepted migrant ships are properly destroyed once their passengers are rescued: in Libyan docks this week, visitors can easily find “recycled” boats that have been salvaged by opportunistic smugglers.

A ban on importing engines might also help – they’re becoming more scarce, according to a smuggler in Tripoli. Greater oversight of the ports is also essential: smugglers are able to leave harbour in boats that have had their names scrubbed out – a practice that is illegal, and wouldn’t be possible if coastguards were doing – or were able to do – their jobs.

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By *iamondjoeMan
over a year ago

Glastonbury

6/ Speed up visa/asylum processing times

Applications for legal resettlement can take 18 months to complete. Even then, only a small minority of applications are successful, since European countries like Britain are accepting so few migrants because of national politics. As a result legal resettlement seems unattainable to most refugees, forcing them to seek alternate means of reaching Europe.

Increasing even slightly the number of refugees allowed to resettle in places like Britain, and speeding up the application process, might convince people to put off the boat voyage by another year.

“It’s strange,” says Abu Jana, a Syrian who will brave the Mediterranean later this summer. “If one million people make it to Europe [by boat], they can get asylum. But if 2,000 people apply for asylum to Europe from here [in Egypt] they won’t get it. Maybe [the Europeans] are encouraging or even working with the smugglers.”

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By *iamondjoeMan
over a year ago

Glastonbury

7/ More legal routes in

Refugee groups are keen to stress that what is needed above all is more legal routes into the EU.

In Canada groups such as mosques, churches or even members of an immigrant community can privately sponsor refugees, bearing some or all of the financial cost of integration.

A pilot sponsorship programme of 500 refugees in Australia began in 2013 and is still under way.

The other major push is for a much wider application of family reunification laws. At the moment refugees can only bring over spouses or children. The Refugee Council in the UK wants to see it made much easier for people to bring over family members such as siblings, parents or cousins.

This would obviate the need for them to smuggle themselves in illegally – and dangerously.

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By *iamondjoeMan
over a year ago

Glastonbury

8/ Transit camps in Africa

It was Tony Blair, in 2003, who first outlined serious proposals that asylum seekers heading for northern Europe could have their claims processed in centres along key transit routes.

Human rights groups have traditionally been wary of the idea but the UNHCR has said that it would consider supporting external processing if “certain safeguards” were in place.

Campaigners say they could not support such camps until they knew the answer to basic questions: what would the conditions be like? What sort of access to justice would there be? And even once these questions are answered the fundamental problem remains: which EU countries will take those granted refugee protection?

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By *anchestercubMan
over a year ago

manchester & NI

"What can be done"

Nothing can be done at the minute apart from mitigating the effects by offering people refuge.

Were there chances in the past 5 years to intervene in a way that may have lessened what has happened? Probably.

There are no too many variables.

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By *iamondjoeMan
over a year ago

Glastonbury

9/ Deal with the root causes

The fact that more Syrians and Eritreans crossed the Mediterranean in 2014 than any other nationality should tell its own story. Ultimately the most sustainable way of decreasing demand for the boats is to curb repression in countries like Eritrea, and end wars in countries of transit or origin like Libya and Syria.

“Our country is a total dictatorship,” one Eritrean refugee said last week. “They can put us in prison for unlimited years. If we go back we will die.”

Syrians say their situation is just as stark. “Right now Syrians consider themselves dead,” says Jana. “Maybe not physically, but psychologically and socially [a Syrian] is a destroyed human being, he’s reached the point of death.”

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By *iamondjoeMan
over a year ago

Glastonbury

I will be surprised if any of you read this.

*puts hand on heart*

I pledge that I will eat one of my hats if any of this makes anyone reconsider their _iews.

But some of you need a reality check. Or a decency check, I'm not sure which...

Somebody switch off the light on the way out?

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By *iamondjoeMan
over a year ago

Glastonbury

Oh wait a mo', it seems to be jammed on

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By *anchestercubMan
over a year ago

manchester & NI

*Flicks the switch*

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By *iamondjoeMan
over a year ago

Glastonbury

*Turns it back on*

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By *anchestercubMan
over a year ago

manchester & NI

*Cheers for 200, even with the lights on*

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By *iamondjoeMan
over a year ago

Glastonbury

*turns the light off and reaches for _anchestercub*

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By *anchestercubMan
over a year ago

manchester & NI

"Joe, that better be the doorknob"

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By *iamondjoeMan
over a year ago

Glastonbury

I'm not sure... it feels too big...

I'd better turn the light back on...

ARRGGGH!!!

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By *anchestercubMan
over a year ago

manchester & NI

*speechless*

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By *iamondjoeMan
over a year ago

Glastonbury

*breathless*

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By *iamondjoeMan
over a year ago

Glastonbury

(how far do you think this can run before the FABometer breaks?)

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By *anchestercubMan
over a year ago

manchester & NI

I don't know Joe, keep pushing!

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By *iamondjoeMan
over a year ago

Glastonbury

I like a man who pushes back

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By *anchestercubMan
over a year ago

manchester & NI

If I push back anymore you'll be having another Bank Holiday

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By *iamondjoeMan
over a year ago

Glastonbury

I've been on holiday for three years - where would you like to go?

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By *anchestercubMan
over a year ago

manchester & NI

I'll settle for behind the bike shed

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By *iamondjoeMan
over a year ago

Glastonbury

Rubbish! Think big!

Lets go to... the Black Rock desert, I know some cool people and some free bars

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By *anchestercubMan
over a year ago

manchester & NI

If you're willing to take me anywhere then lets go to Vaadhoo Island, we can bring our own booze

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By *iamondjoeMan
over a year ago

Glastonbury

Don't need to bring yr own booze of Black Rock - people just give it to you for free

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