FabSwingers.com forum: Migrants in Hungary

By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

Budapest station in meltdown.

The Hungarians are saying they want to app,y the EU and United Nations rules on asylum seekers and make them register there as it is a "safe" country.

These are international rules.

The migrants then started a protest that ended up close to a riot and shut the station.

Is Hungary right in trying to follow the agreed rules?

Thoughts?

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By *iamondjoeMan
over a year ago

Glastonbury

Germany to take 800,000 refugees/migrants, hundreds of thousands of whom are moving through Greece, Hungary, Serbia and Austria.

And we're getting out knickers in a twist about 6,000 at Calais?

Hmmm.

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By *iamondjoeMan
over a year ago

Glastonbury

Basically, there is a moral duty to help these people and while everyone agrees on this principle, nobody quite thinks it should be them who has to help...

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

Fair point.....suppose I am asking if the EU and UN rules are fit for purpose?

Hungary being the first EU country on the Balkan route seem to be taking responsibility for processing asylum claims? If the migrants refuse to apply for asylum there then does that mean they cannot anywhere else?

Do they then define themselves as economic migrants?

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By *aneandpaulCouple
over a year ago

cleveleys

Have you seen them on the news to night well you do gooders put them up in your spare room think you will think different

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Did they say why they didn't want to register in Hungary?

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By *aneandpaulCouple
over a year ago

cleveleys

Yes

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By *nnyMan
over a year ago

Glasgow

If the EU is to work as a genuine union, ALL participant countries (incl the UK) have abide by ALL the rules, not just the ones which suit them.

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By *iamondjoeMan
over a year ago

Glastonbury

"If the EU is to work as a genuine union, ALL participant countries (incl the UK) have abide by ALL the rules, not just the ones which suit them."

Not so easy. The great compromise of the European Union is that the exact line of where national or federal power is ascendant has never been drawn.

And, in fact, wars have been fought over less.

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By *ngel n tedCouple
over a year ago

maidstone

"Did they say why they didn't want to register in Hungary? "

Because they'd bought train tickets to germany

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By *thwalescplCouple
over a year ago

brecon

I've always felt that, as they are fleeing warzones and persecution, surely they should stop in the first SAFE country they get to, and wait until they can go HOME?

I'm happy for the UK to help out, provide food, shelter, medical assistance etc, but what grips my shit is that a lot of them are traveling through 3,4 or more safe countries to get here, why... because they get it all when they get here, houses, benefits, and then they get to bring the rest of their family too.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Did they say why they didn't want to register in Hungary?

Because they'd bought train tickets to germany "

Where did they come from to arrive in Hungary?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I read the article. Seems to me that Hungary are making a stand.

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By *iamondjoeMan
over a year ago

Glastonbury

And then the corollary of this is the collapse of the Shengen Agreement - ie the idea of free movement of peoples within the EU.

It's all a bit of a mess.

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By *iamondjoeMan
over a year ago

Glastonbury

I mean, if you look at Libya, Berlusconi used to pay Gadaffi to keep the migrants out.

The Gadaffi is old news and we bomb democracy into Libya... only we've created a failed state that we want nothing to do with but that's now become an entry-point for people traffickers making money out of desperate people.

So the EU foreign ministers get together 'cos too many brown people keep washing up - literally and metaphorically, on southern European shores - and what do they do?

What's their master-stroke of genius to sort out the problem?

We're gonna use jets to bomb the people-trafficker's boats on Libyan shores.

Astounding.

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By *ee VianteWoman
over a year ago

Somewhere in North Norfolk

"And then the corollary of this is the collapse of the Shengen Agreement - ie the idea of free movement of peoples within the EU.

It's all a bit of a mess."

Isn't it the free movement of people from EU member countries throughout the EU?

Asylum seekers aren't from EU member countries.

Theoretically, if they are genuine asylum seekers, they should be happy to accept asylum in the first safe country or from any safe country offering it.

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By *iamondjoeMan
over a year ago

Glastonbury

"And then the corollary of this is the collapse of the Shengen Agreement - ie the idea of free movement of peoples within the EU.

It's all a bit of a mess.

Isn't it the free movement of people from EU member countries throughout the EU?

Asylum seekers aren't from EU member countries.

Theoretically, if they are genuine asylum seekers, they should be happy to accept asylum in the first safe country or from any safe country offering it."

Indeed.

But if you're a poor, small EU state - say Greece or Hungary - and you have 100s of 1000s of migrants coming at you saying they want to go to Germany, Sweden or the UK...

Are you *seriously* gonna say 'Stay here'.

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By *ee VianteWoman
over a year ago

Somewhere in North Norfolk

"And then the corollary of this is the collapse of the Shengen Agreement - ie the idea of free movement of peoples within the EU.

It's all a bit of a mess.

Isn't it the free movement of people from EU member countries throughout the EU?

Asylum seekers aren't from EU member countries.

Theoretically, if they are genuine asylum seekers, they should be happy to accept asylum in the first safe country or from any safe country offering it.

Indeed.

But if you're a poor, small EU state - say Greece or Hungary - and you have 100s of 1000s of migrants coming at you saying they want to go to Germany, Sweden or the UK...

Are you *seriously* gonna say 'Stay here'.

??"

I don't think those countries should have to take all the incoming asylum seekers.

I do think they should be registered there. We need to put a system in place to distribute them fairly.

The asylum seekers themselves shouldn't be able to choose which country they want to seek asylum in. That's not how asylum is intended to work and it means certain countries get more than their fair share of people seeking asylum.

The whole "I bought a ticket to Germany, I want to go to Germany" thing is bullshit. Either they are asylum seekers and they follow the rules for asylum seekers or they are immigrants and they follow the rules for immigrants.

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By *iamondjoeMan
over a year ago

Glastonbury

"And then the corollary of this is the collapse of the Shengen Agreement - ie the idea of free movement of peoples within the EU.

It's all a bit of a mess.

Isn't it the free movement of people from EU member countries throughout the EU?

Asylum seekers aren't from EU member countries.

Theoretically, if they are genuine asylum seekers, they should be happy to accept asylum in the first safe country or from any safe country offering it.

Indeed.

But if you're a poor, small EU state - say Greece or Hungary - and you have 100s of 1000s of migrants coming at you saying they want to go to Germany, Sweden or the UK...

Are you *seriously* gonna say 'Stay here'.

I don't think those countries should have to take all the incoming asylum seekers.

I do think they should be registered there. We need to put a system in place to distribute them fairly.

...and asylum seekers?

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By *iamondjoeMan
over a year ago

Glastonbury

The point is, my grandfather was an illegal immigrant here during and after the war.

He was originally from Russia but escaped after his father was shot up against the wall of the family house in '37, fled to Poland, changed his name, just in time for the Nazis to invade.

Then he escaped over the Baltic, through Norway, via a fishing boat to Britain where he fought with the Free Polish forces with distinction.

He never became a naturalised citizen. He never had the right to vote. If his real Russian heritage had come out, he would have been deported.

His children have gone on to contribute to the wealth of this country.

How does a story like that fit in to your model?

Just curious...

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By *iamondjoeMan
over a year ago

Glastonbury

...and on the other side, another grandfather was a German journalist, was kicked out of Germany in '35 for writing rude things about the Nazis, washed up here and spent the war on the Isle of Mann, with all the other enemy aliens.

He subsequently became a translator for the UN.

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By *iamondjoeMan
over a year ago

Glastonbury

So while you see a mass of unwashed strangers who want to come here and I see hundreds of thousands of individual stories and cases.

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By *iamondjoeMan
over a year ago

Glastonbury

But if I sound like I'm getting shirty, I'm not. It's a huge problem, and one that requires a concerted, group effort from EU nations.

ALL of us.

Even if you build a fence all the way around Europe there's still a lot of water that can be crossed.

The problem won't be wished away.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"But if I sound like I'm getting shirty, I'm not. It's a huge problem, and one that requires a concerted, group effort from EU nations.

ALL of us.

Even if you build a fence all the way around Europe there's still a lot of water that can be crossed.

The problem won't be wished away. "

I read earlier that there is going to be an EU meeting about the "migrant crisis" in Europe. I tried to find more information but lost the site I saw it on. 30 times more migrant peoples have died in the Mediterranean this year than last year. It's a crisis that is still growing.

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By *iamondjoeMan
over a year ago

Glastonbury

"But if I sound like I'm getting shirty, I'm not. It's a huge problem, and one that requires a concerted, group effort from EU nations.

ALL of us.

Even if you build a fence all the way around Europe there's still a lot of water that can be crossed.

The problem won't be wished away.

As I said, this is why I was astounded by the declaration of intent by the EU foreign ministers in response to the crisis in Libya - bomb the trafficker's bases - keep the problem in another country.

Essentially.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I've always felt that, as they are fleeing warzones and persecution, surely they should stop in the first SAFE country they get to, and wait until they can go HOME?

That's what The Sun newspaper tells you...

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"But if I sound like I'm getting shirty, I'm not. It's a huge problem, and one that requires a concerted, group effort from EU nations.

ALL of us.

Even if you build a fence all the way around Europe there's still a lot of water that can be crossed.

The problem won't be wished away. "
.

That's because we're doing nothing to solve the problem, it would be a bit like just taking in refugees forever from Germany between 35 and 39 instead of kicking Hitler's ass and solving the refugee crises.... Or to put it anther way, think if we'd solved Hitler sooner like in 37 when we actually knew what a twat he was being then there wouldn't have been a mass exodus of Jewish refugees to Palestine.... Yeah I mean that refugee thing went well for the Palestinians didn't it!

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By *iamondjoeMan
over a year ago

Glastonbury

"But if I sound like I'm getting shirty, I'm not. It's a huge problem, and one that requires a concerted, group effort from EU nations.

ALL of us.

Even if you build a fence all the way around Europe there's still a lot of water that can be crossed.

The problem won't be wished away. .

Did you know one of Hitler's early ideas was to ship all the Jews off to Madagascar?

Serious! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madagascar_Plan

That would have saved a lot of trouble too...

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By *ngel n tedCouple
over a year ago

maidstone

"But if I sound like I'm getting shirty, I'm not. It's a huge problem, and one that requires a concerted, group effort from EU nations.

ALL of us.

Even if you build a fence all the way around Europe there's still a lot of water that can be crossed.

The problem won't be wished away. .

Did you know one of Hitler's early ideas was to ship all the Jews off to Madagascar?

Serious! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madagascar_Plan

That would have saved a lot of trouble too..."

Wouldn't have made such a good a film though....the jews of madagacar

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"But if I sound like I'm getting shirty, I'm not. It's a huge problem, and one that requires a concerted, group effort from EU nations.

ALL of us.

Even if you build a fence all the way around Europe there's still a lot of water that can be crossed.

The problem won't be wished away. .

Did you know one of Hitler's early ideas was to ship all the Jews off to Madagascar?

Serious! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madagascar_Plan

That would have saved a lot of trouble too..."
.

And I'm sure it would have gone as equally bad for the Madagascans!

Personally I'm quite happy with the exchange were currently doing

All the nutjob religious ones are going so Syria and all the less nutjob ones can come here.... In fact that should be the new rule

One out, one in!

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Some people forget that they are people too. Same as us,trying to live and keep their families safe.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Some people forget that they are people too. Same as us,trying to live and keep their families safe."
.

Yeah they said the same thing to the native north Americans and the native Indians of south America and the Aboriginals and the Palestinians and the south Africans and the Polynesians and the celts.... History is littered with well meaning immigrants!

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"If the EU is to work as a genuine union, ALL participant countries (incl the UK) have abide by ALL the rules, not just the ones which suit them."

Wrong - The Schengen Agreement makes it very clear, that a refugee must be registered in the FIRST country he/she/they enter and then they can move onwards.

Ireland and Britain are not part of the Schengen countries (which include also non EU countries like Switzerland Andorra etc).

As 99% of all so-called refugees are arriving in Italy and Greece (with more now via Russia in Norway per foot and bike), they would have to register first in Greece and Italy.

Both these countries are "swamped" and are receiving no help, whatsoever from Brussels to process the immigrants or provide aid such as food/tents/medical equipment.

Hungary is correct in refusing further transfer to other EU countries under the existing Schengen Agreement(s), as 80% arriving in Hungary have not registered in Greece.

Germany has made it very CLEAR, that it will accept only refugees from Syria as war refugees.

All others are regarded as economic immigrants which will be returned to their countries.

Just for your info 20% arriving in Vienna are from Vietnam - didn't know that Vietnam had a war going on..further 17% are from Bangladesh so how does that figure out.

Before quoting figures that Britain has not accepted any refugees - Expain then why Britain has the highest population of Somalias outside Somalia next to a small town in the USA?

Britain has always welcomed real refugees such as the Huguenots from France, the Austrian Jews, citizens from the Baltic countries in 1934-38 and many others. Did the world thank Britain for that ?

So before people start throwing stones in a glass house it would be great to get correct info and not just listen to the BBC

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

In this migrant crisis, its time to introduce military rule, to sort them out.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"In this migrant crisis, its time to introduce military rule, to sort them out."

Shoot them?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"In this migrant crisis, its time to introduce military rule, to sort them out.

Shoot them? "
lol no, just to control the situation so they are not all at the station you know.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Some people forget that they are people too. Same as us,trying to live and keep their families safe."

It's disgusting the way some people talk about them, I've heard such comments while at work etc people saying they should bomb the boats or open fire on the boarders at these people

I have to bite my tongue and walk off because I'd say something I'd later regret other wise

I can't believe how some can be so uncaring

I'm alright fuck you

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By *phroditeWoman
over a year ago

(She/ her) in Sensualityland

I just want to throw something into the equation and ask if anybody as a sensible, realistic and humane solution for the growing crisis?

Even if Germany takes 800,000 - there are likely to be more people coming this way.

I absolutely believe that based on humanitarian grounds we (including all countries) must do what we can to help but I am also realistic in that it cannot go on at this rate forever.

So what are possible solutions?

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By *phroditeWoman
over a year ago

(She/ her) in Sensualityland

And what is considered a military solution? Is it getting the army to build emergency shelter for the refugees as they did in Germany?

Furthermore, there seems to be some beliefs and assumptions about "the" refugees - I happen to know that many of them are educated people who had no choice but to flee.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I just want to throw something into the equation and ask if anybody as a sensible, realistic and humane solution for the growing crisis?

Even if Germany takes 800,000 - there are likely to be more people coming this way.

I absolutely believe that based on humanitarian grounds we (including all countries) must do what we can to help but I am also realistic in that it cannot go on at this rate forever.

So what are possible solutions? "

Not really

In my opinion the only thing that will stop this situation is for war to stop so the people fleeing didn't feel unsafe in their own homes/countries

While ever there is war the innocent will flee

But I have more chance of winning the lottery that for that to happen so I see no end to it

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I just want to throw something into the equation and ask if anybody as a sensible, realistic and humane solution for the growing crisis?

Even if Germany takes 800,000 - there are likely to be more people coming this way.

I absolutely believe that based on humanitarian grounds we (including all countries) must do what we can to help but I am also realistic in that it cannot go on at this rate forever.

So what are possible solutions? "
.

Where's the problem?

In Libya it's rebels

In Syria and iraq it's islamists terrorists

In Eritrea it's a wayward government.

These problems are fixable today!

Were not taking manned missions to Mars here!.... What the fuck is the point of the united nations if not to sort out these problems?

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By *phroditeWoman
over a year ago

(She/ her) in Sensualityland

I still have not seen any suggestions regarding a solution - but this is not confined to the forum here. I have asked many people recently what they suggest should be done and answers varied a great deal, invariably suggesting THE army, AN army, THE UN etc... but nobody is actually saying what should be done beyond that.

Are we saying we would ship people back to the country they fled?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

" Before quoting figures that Britain has not accepted any refugees - Expain then why Britain has the highest population of Somalias outside Somalia next to a small town in the USA?

......

So before people start throwing stones in a glass house it would be great to get correct info and not just listen to the BBC "

Those glass houses get everywhere.

Minnesota is a state, not a small town, in the US and had the largest population of Somalis (for a state not a town ) at 25000 out of the total of 87000 according to the US census in 2010.

The Yemen (200000) and Canada (150000) have more Somalis than the UK (109000). I'm not sure where you got your figures from, but the BBC might be more reliable for you in future.

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By *iamondjoeMan
over a year ago

Glastonbury

"" Before quoting figures that Britain has not accepted any refugees - Expain then why Britain has the highest population of Somalias outside Somalia next to a small town in the USA?

......

So before people start throwing stones in a glass house it would be great to get correct info and not just listen to the BBC "

Those glass houses get everywhere.

Minnesota is a state, not a small town, in the US and had the largest population of Somalis (for a state not a town ) at 25000 out of the total of 87000 according to the US census in 2010.

The Yemen (200000) and Canada (150000) have more Somalis than the UK (109000). I'm not sure where you got your figures from, but the BBC might be more reliable for you in future."

Easy - that's called ghettoisation

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I still have not seen any suggestions regarding a solution - but this is not confined to the forum here. I have asked many people recently what they suggest should be done and answers varied a great deal, invariably suggesting THE army, AN army, THE UN etc... but nobody is actually saying what should be done beyond that.

Are we saying we would ship people back to the country they fled?"
.

The un has at its disposal the ability to bring about solutions to the problems?

These problems are not beyond fixing!.

Take Libya, 15000 rebels at most causing civil disturbance.

Isis!... 50k hard line extremists?, we could if we wanted to.

The question is how much do you want to

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Can't we let them all in, then help them to find refuge and safety in Ireland? Then we can join the rest of Europe in this huge game of "hot potato"..

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By *phroditeWoman
over a year ago

(She/ her) in Sensualityland

Are we saying we would ship people back to the country they fled?.

The un has at its disposal the ability to bring about solutions to the problems?

These problems are not beyond fixing!.

Take Libya, 15000 rebels at most causing civil disturbance.

Isis!... 50k hard line extremists?, we could if we wanted to.

The question is how much do you want to"

I am not disputing the UN has some solutions for some problems.

I am asking though, and not in an argumentative way, what can and should be done? Do people believe the refugees should be sent back to the countries from where they fled, and if so what does this mean for them, for us and for those who acted?

If not, then what other options doe we have?

I am struggling because I really don't know. I just know as a human being and a mum I could not send them back to where they came from. But I am happy to hear other people's suggestions to ease the crisis.

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By *razedcatMan
over a year ago

London / Herts

These people are migrating for two reasons.

a) The disparity of wealth in this world, between nations, is growing too large.

b) To make matters worse, certain countries are being singled out for destabilisation, encouraging people to flee erupting conflict.

As I've said elsewhere, the solution is simple in theory, difficult to execute. More must be done to improve living conditions in countries overseas. And that doesn't mean just providing handouts. I'm talking about a massive, full-blown political and social integration project, that makes the UN look like the League of Nations

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By *iamondjoeMan
over a year ago

Glastonbury

"These people are migrating for two reasons.

a) The disparity of wealth in this world, between nations, is growing too large.

b) To make matters worse, certain countries are being singled out for destabilisation, encouraging people to flee erupting conflict.

Who knows?

You might even call it a modern Marshall Plan, such as was rolled out to the benefit of Europe in general and West Germany in particular following WWII...

But that's crazy talk...

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By *phroditeWoman
over a year ago

(She/ her) in Sensualityland

"These people are migrating for two reasons.

a) The disparity of wealth in this world, between nations, is growing too large.

b) To make matters worse, certain countries are being singled out for destabilisation, encouraging people to flee erupting conflict.

These people, as you say, who are they?

I know from first hand experience that some of "these" people, quite possibly the vast majority are fleeing because the alternative would almost certainly mean death,for men, women and children alike

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By *layfull pairingCouple
over a year ago

Bristol

You wont find any answers on a sex site forum and evidently there are no real answers from euro governments either...what can poss be done ? Apart from re-stabilising their countries of origin.... And to do that would require a huge "boots on the ground" military force and the complete invasion, take over and running of all these failed countries after beating their armies/militias... Winning over the locals and their religions by bribery or force...which is simply not going to happen ...

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By *phroditeWoman
over a year ago

(She/ her) in Sensualityland

"You wont find any answers on a sex site forum and evidently there are no real answers from euro governments either...what can poss be done ? Apart from re-stabilising their countries of origin.... And to do that would require a huge "boots on the ground" military force and the complete invasion, take over and running of all these failed countries after beating their armies/militias... Winning over the locals and their religions by bribery or force...which is simply not going to happen ... "

I agree answers are difficult to find on this or any forum. I guess I was trying to throw into the equation that perhaps this is nt a matter of calling the army or whoever.

We need a humane solution - I just do not know what it would look like.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"" Before quoting figures that Britain has not accepted any refugees - Expain then why Britain has the highest population of Somalias outside Somalia next to a small town in the USA?

......

So before people start throwing stones in a glass house it would be great to get correct info and not just listen to the BBC "

Those glass houses get everywhere.

Minnesota is a state, not a small town, in the US and had the largest population of Somalis (for a state not a town ) at 25000 out of the total of 87000 according to the US census in 2010.

The Yemen (200000) and Canada (150000) have more Somalis than the UK (109000). I'm not sure where you got your figures from, but the BBC might be more reliable for you in future."
.

Just as a point

Minnesotas population density is 25 people per square kilometre

Germany's is 235 people per square kilometre

Italy's is 205

France 117

Englands is 420

Canada's is 5 yes 5 people per square kilometre

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By *iamondjoeMan
over a year ago

Glastonbury

The simple fact of the matter is that there is more than enough on this planet to guarantee

* food

* shelter

* water & sanitation

* education

And yet a large number of (mostly brown) people aren't able to access that basic minimum.

I'd want to go live somewhere else too.

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By *ee VianteWoman
over a year ago

Somewhere in North Norfolk

"So while you see a mass of unwashed strangers who want to come here and I see hundreds of thousands of individual stories and cases. "

You seem to think I have a problem with immigrants and asylum seekers. I don't. I don't think we're doing enough for refugees and asylum seekers.

However, it concerns me when asylum seekers want to go to a specific safe country and make a fuss when they are offered asylum elsewhere. That is not seeking asylum in my view.

As for your grandparents, that was a completely different period of time. I wouldn't like to comment on what I think would have been appropriate policy for a time I cannot identify with in any way.

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By *anejohnkent6263Couple
over a year ago

canterbury

kent now 10 English per sq mile ......scrounging bastards fron the rest of world about a 1000 per sq yard if we carry on like this ....kent cant cope and the rest of the uk does not understand our costs that we the rate payers are paying .....we close old peoples homes cause of no money but can turn them into centres for economic migrants....does not make sense.

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By *razedcatMan
over a year ago

London / Herts

I know from first hand experience that some of "these" people, quite possibly the vast majority are fleeing because the alternative would almost certainly mean death,for men, women and children alike"

I agree entirely. I think their motives for coming to Europe and the UK are justified. I just think we can do a damnsight more to encourage people to stay where they are. After all, if these people had the choice, they'd stay in their homelands.

I'm just stunned the public at large don't seem to be connecting the dots.

One hundred years of globalisation. A current age of incredible communication technology that beams visions of the capitalistic good life across the globe. Mass economic migration was inevitable.

With regards to asylum seekers, sixty years of chaos across the Islamic world and unhealed scars of colonialism in Sub-Saharan Africa pretty much sum it up.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I've always felt that, as they are fleeing warzones and persecution, surely they should stop in the first SAFE country they get to, and wait until they can go HOME?

100% agree.

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By *phroditeWoman
over a year ago

(She/ her) in Sensualityland

Would we not all bring our children to a safe place if we were in that situation?

Our children, parents and siblings... if we worried about their lives being in danger?

I am just asking questions here...

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By *iamondjoeMan
over a year ago

Glastonbury

"I've always felt that, as they are fleeing warzones and persecution, surely they should stop in the first SAFE country they get to, and wait until they can go HOME?

100% agree."

I'm afraid this is bollocks.

Sorry.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Are we saying we would ship people back to the country they fled?.

The un has at its disposal the ability to bring about solutions to the problems?

These problems are not beyond fixing!.

Take Libya, 15000 rebels at most causing civil disturbance.

Isis!... 50k hard line extremists?, we could if we wanted to.

The question is how much do you want to

I am not disputing the UN has some solutions for some problems.

If not, then what other options doe we have?

You'd be very surprised what your capable of!

to to say you couldn't is ridiculous,I could if i had to very easily and I wouldn't even lose sleep about it!.

That's not to say I think it's the best solution!!

This apathy to this is how things are and will be forever is more annoying than this constant debate!

Take away all the borders in the world and you'll still have the exact same problems....

Borders aren't causing problems

Nobody in south Sudan gave a flying fuck about the border until somebody went.... Thar she blows!

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Fair point.....suppose I am asking if the EU and UN rules are fit for purpose?

Do they then define themselves as economic migrants?"

As soon as they decline to stay in the first SAFE country, they become economic migrants...which is a whole different ball game from fleeing from persecution.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Would we not all bring our children to a safe place if we were in that situation?

Our children, parents and siblings... if we worried about their lives being in danger?

I am just asking questions here..."
.

What if your an orphan?

Are you being deliberately racist, xenophobic to orphans!.

You see how this goes!

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Does it mean foreigners should avoid going to hungary for safety?.

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By *phroditeWoman
over a year ago

(She/ her) in Sensualityland

"Would we not all bring our children to a safe place if we were in that situation?

Our children, parents and siblings... if we worried about their lives being in danger?

I am just asking questions here....

What if your an orphan?

Are you being deliberately racist, xenophobic to orphans!.

You see how this goes!

I think you know what I was trying to say.

And being a mum, a wife and a human being really does make me very uncomfortable with some of the "solutions" suggested.

I am not naive or blind to the potential dangers, the risks and the consequences - I am asking questions because I know that I do not have an answer

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By *ee VianteWoman
over a year ago

Somewhere in North Norfolk

"Fair point.....suppose I am asking if the EU and UN rules are fit for purpose?

Do they then define themselves as economic migrants?

As soon as they decline to stay in the first SAFE country, they become economic migrants...which is a whole different ball game from fleeing from persecution."

I agree with this, as per my comment above. Asylum seekers become simply immigrants as soon as they fail to apply for asylum on reaching a safe place.

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By *ouple in LancashireCouple
over a year ago

in Lancashire

"Budapest station in meltdown.

The Hungarians are saying they want to app,y the EU and United Nations rules on asylum seekers and make them register there as it is a "safe" country.

These are international rules.

The migrants then started a protest that ended up close to a riot and shut the station.

Is Hungary right in trying to follow the agreed rules?

Thoughts?"

it didn't look like any riot iv'e been involved in..

more like the police just cleared the station and the people stood outside chanting..

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By *phroditeWoman
over a year ago

(She/ her) in Sensualityland

"Budapest station in meltdown.

The Hungarians are saying they want to app,y the EU and United Nations rules on asylum seekers and make them register there as it is a "safe" country.

These are international rules.

The migrants then started a protest that ended up close to a riot and shut the station.

Is Hungary right in trying to follow the agreed rules?

Thoughts?

it didn't look like any riot iv'e been involved in..

more like the police just cleared the station and the people stood outside chanting..

"
They were.... chanting !

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Would we not all bring our children to a safe place if we were in that situation?

Our children, parents and siblings... if we worried about their lives being in danger?

I am just asking questions here....

What if your an orphan?

Are you being deliberately racist, xenophobic to orphans!.

You see how this goes!

I think you know what I was trying to say.

And being a mum, a wife and a human being really does make me very uncomfortable with some of the "solutions" suggested.

I am not naive or blind to the potential dangers, the risks and the consequences - I am asking questions because I know that I do not have an answer"
.

Yep the head of Austria was just on the tv complaining about England not taking their fair share.

Population density of Austria?

102.... Now who's not taking their fair fucking share here...

It ain't England in my book

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By *ouple in LancashireCouple
over a year ago

in Lancashire

"I've always felt that, as they are fleeing warzones and persecution, surely they should stop in the first SAFE country they get to, and wait until they can go HOME?

100% agree.

I'm afraid this is bollocks.

Sorry. "

this..

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I've always felt that, as they are fleeing warzones and persecution, surely they should stop in the first SAFE country they get to, and wait until they can go HOME?

100% agree.

I'm afraid this is bollocks.

Sorry. "

What IS bollocks is the 'everyone is welcome' train of thought without working through the basic facts of the massive drain on resources paid for by the hard working taxpayers of this country.

We have enough social problems of our own in this country, without importing more.

If you want them here, don't spend tax money on new problems without fixing the existing problems here at home first...pensioners being turfed out of care-homes, the NHS, social exclusion in most major towns and cities in the Uk...I could go on.

Yes the whole situation is a tragedy, but don't screw up this country even more by just opening the country's front door and spouting 'human rights' bollocks...that's one of the reasons why this country is as fucked-up as it is today.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

If were dividing them up per country, then they should be quoted at available space.

Ireland, Spain, France, Sweden, Italy, Greece, Finland,Scotland, Hungary, Poland and Germany should be first on the list as their the least populated, once they get to our level(England, Holland)then we can share equally!

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By *abioMan
over a year ago

Newcastle and Gateshead

"And then the corollary of this is the collapse of the Shengen Agreement - ie the idea of free movement of peoples within the EU.

It's all a bit of a mess."

you missed a very important word in the Schengen Agreement.... it is the idea of free movement for EU citizens within the EU...

Hungary's fair legitimate arguement to that is "well these is not EU citizens"!!... they could under UN law apply you asylum at the first point, which isn't germany... and wasn't hungary

the reason why syrians want to make it to Germany (and to sweden) is that under german law any citizen deemed to be fleeing a country of "civil war" gets leave to remain and can apply to make that permenent.... in sweden that is actually permenantly automatically

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I'm sure most of the people fleeing the countries they are from would stay if it wasn't a war zone/corrupt or economically ravaged country, Sort the problems out in their home countries and we wont have this problem

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By *iamondjoeMan
over a year ago

Glastonbury

"And then the corollary of this is the collapse of the Shengen Agreement - ie the idea of free movement of peoples within the EU.

It's all a bit of a mess.

you missed a very important word in the Schengen Agreement.... it is the idea of free movement for EU citizens within the EU...

Hungary's fair legitimate arguement to that is "well these is not EU citizens"!!... they could under UN law apply you asylum at the first point, which isn't germany... and wasn't hungary

Fair comment - but how do you practically enforce in that Hungary &c without targeting anyone who looks a bit shifty/out of place/brown?

Gonna get German & Swedish law-makers to change their countries' laws? While migrants pile up in Serbia 'cos the Hungarians built a big fence?

This is where the EU begins to break down... And where a more centralised response would help...

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By *ee VianteWoman
over a year ago

Somewhere in North Norfolk

"I'm sure most of the people fleeing the countries they are from would stay if it wasn't a war zone/corrupt or economically ravaged country, Sort the problems out in their home countries and we wont have this problem "

It'd be a start if we would stop *causing* the problems in their home countries..

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"And then the corollary of this is the collapse of the Shengen Agreement - ie the idea of free movement of peoples within the EU.

It's all a bit of a mess."

Free movement for work. Which they haven't got.

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By *iamondjoeMan
over a year ago

Glastonbury

"And then the corollary of this is the collapse of the Shengen Agreement - ie the idea of free movement of peoples within the EU.

It's all a bit of a mess.

Free movement for work. Which they haven't got."

I think the principle is wonderful

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Would we not all bring our children to a safe place if we were in that situation?

Our children, parents and siblings... if we worried about their lives being in danger?

I am just asking questions here....

What if your an orphan?

Are you being deliberately racist, xenophobic to orphans!.

You see how this goes!

I think you know what I was trying to say.

And being a mum, a wife and a human being really does make me very uncomfortable with some of the "solutions" suggested.

I am not naive or blind to the potential dangers, the risks and the consequences - I am asking questions because I know that I do not have an answer.

Yep the head of Austria was just on the tv complaining about England not taking their fair share.

Population density of Austria?

102.... Now who's not taking their fair fucking share here...

It ain't England in my book"

To be fair, it's about the size of Scotland and has far more and bigger mountains so less usable territory. Scotland comes in at a roomy 68 - you'd better give the SNP a poke while you're playing that game.

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By *abioMan
over a year ago

Newcastle and Gateshead

"And then the corollary of this is the collapse of the Shengen Agreement - ie the idea of free movement of peoples within the EU.

It's all a bit of a mess.

Free movement for work. Which they haven't got.

I think the principle is wonderful "

so do i.....

just out of interest... even though the UK isn't part of schengen... do you think people realise (well mainly those outside of northern ireland) that the UK and the Republic of ireland have the same type of schengen agreement......

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By *nnyMan
over a year ago

Glasgow

"Would we not all bring our children to a safe place if we were in that situation?

Our children, parents and siblings... if we worried about their lives being in danger?

I am just asking questions here....

What if your an orphan?

Are you being deliberately racist, xenophobic to orphans!.

You see how this goes!

I think you know what I was trying to say.

And being a mum, a wife and a human being really does make me very uncomfortable with some of the "solutions" suggested.

I am not naive or blind to the potential dangers, the risks and the consequences - I am asking questions because I know that I do not have an answer.

Yep the head of Austria was just on the tv complaining about England not taking their fair share.

Population density of Austria?

102.... Now who's not taking their fair fucking share here...

It ain't England in my book

Nicola reckons Scotland should accept more immigrants but some folk believe it's a ploy to infiltrate them into England via a very porous border.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Would we not all bring our children to a safe place if we were in that situation?

Our children, parents and siblings... if we worried about their lives being in danger?

I am just asking questions here....

What if your an orphan?

Are you being deliberately racist, xenophobic to orphans!.

You see how this goes!

I think you know what I was trying to say.

And being a mum, a wife and a human being really does make me very uncomfortable with some of the "solutions" suggested.

I am not naive or blind to the potential dangers, the risks and the consequences - I am asking questions because I know that I do not have an answer.

Yep the head of Austria was just on the tv complaining about England not taking their fair share.

Population density of Austria?

102.... Now who's not taking their fair fucking share here...

It ain't England in my book

"
.

Ah but the same applies to England

Most of cornwall and large parts of Devon is moorland along with vast swathes of the peak district, Northumbria, Cumbria, most of Norfolk and Somerset is flood plain!.

Ireland is fucking deserted and so is most of France and Spain and Italy.

I've already stated I'm willing to take in the less religious nujobs of Syria but it's on a basis of one out, one in.... From the news I gather we've got four less spaces thanks to the bloody Turkish police!

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By *ee VianteWoman
over a year ago

Somewhere in North Norfolk

I'm blonde, blue eyed and fair skinned.

My ancestors, at some point, were probably immigrants or invaders.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I'm blonde, blue eyed and fair skinned.

My ancestors, at some point, were probably immigrants or invaders."
.

And so are everybody else's!

At best guess we originated around east Africa and the Yemen!.

But that was a long long time ago, long enough for your ancestors to evolve straighter blonde floppy hair that came down your neck to protect you from the colder winter air, to narrow your nostrils for the same reasons and for skin to lighten more to absorb more vitamin d from less sunlight!.

Cultural differences are not racial differences, there two different entities.

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By *LCCCouple
over a year ago

Cambridge

Its a very complex situation that seemingly no one understands. The media is pretty poor at educating the population about what is going on.

For example we have people on this thread thinking that houses and benefits a plenty is waiting for "these people" when they get to Britain.

I say "these people" because it is a mix of asylum seekers, potential asylum seekers, failed asylum seekers, and economic migrants. People only become refugees once they have registered with the Office of the United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees (UNHCR). Various countries then decide how many refugees they want to take from which country.

An asylum seeker should seek asylum in the first safe country they come to. In the EU this is called the Dublin Regulation.

I think it should be considered that the people fleeing conflicts, for example from Syria, that are turning up in Europe, are not those most affected by the conflict. They are generally the richest in society who have been able to pay the many thousands of pounds to the people smugglers to get out of the country. The most vulnerable are the Internally Displaced People (IDPs) who are still inside Syria. The ones who dont have the resources, connections or ability to get out. Yes it's going to be shit sleeping outside a train station in Hungary in the rain, but its better than shells raining down on you.

For full disclosure I have worked in refugee camps, IDP camps, and with the victims of war crimes.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Its a very complex situation that seemingly no one understands. The media is pretty poor at educating the population about what is going on.

For example we have people on this thread thinking that houses and benefits a plenty is waiting for "these people" when they get to Britain.

An asylum seeker should seek asylum in the first safe country they come to. In the EU this is called the Dublin Regulation.

For full disclosure I have worked in refugee camps, IDP camps, and with the victims of war crimes.

"
.

That's exactly what I've been saying for many threads!

Firstly if there not getting any houses or benefits.... Where are they living and how are they buying stuff to live on?.

Your either going to have to provide for them or be prepared for them to steal from you! That's just a fact of life!.

So you take some small percentage now to ease our conscience but leave the majority to get fucked over back at base, still there hard luck they couldn't walk/have money/break into trucks.

Just fix the fucking problem, isis are a bunch of cunts(50,000) with AK47s and a million dollar budget.. Are you telling me they can beat a 3 trillion dollar army with a million men satellites, drones, smart bombs, cruise missiles, helicopters, airplanes, night vision, submarines, aircraft carriers, tanks, armed vehicles, mine sweepers and catering

Because to be quite honest, if we can't defeat that bunch of halfwit Islamic idiots.... Were over paying

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I see what your saying in regards to numbers and budgets sexy bum.

Fighting against people such as Isis you don't always know who the enemy is or where they are. That's the problem.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Germany to take 800,000 refugees/migrants, hundreds of thousands of whom are moving through Greece, Hungary, Serbia and Austria.

And we're getting out knickers in a twist about 6,000 at Calais?

Hmmm."

In Ireland our Minister Defense has commited to "talking about" taking in 300-600 over two years.

He's afraid of losing the thick, ignorant, xenophobic vote.

It's a joke.

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By *nnyMan
over a year ago

Glasgow

"Germany to take 800,000 refugees/migrants, hundreds of thousands of whom are moving through Greece, Hungary, Serbia and Austria.

And we're getting out knickers in a twist about 6,000 at Calais?

Hmmm.

In Ireland our Minister Defense has commited to "talking about" taking in 300-600 over two years.

........

Will they have to be Catholics?

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By *xcumMan
over a year ago

kidderminster

If our lives fuck up do we emigrate. NO we stay put and strive to put things right and not go to be a burden on other countries. In the uk we are seen as easy pickings, cash housing, all there for the taking. I ask you this if we where to go to there country, how would they treat us. I rest my case

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Germany to take 800,000 refugees/migrants, hundreds of thousands of whom are moving through Greece, Hungary, Serbia and Austria.

And we're getting out knickers in a twist about 6,000 at Calais?

Hmmm.

In Ireland our Minister Defense has commited to "talking about" taking in 300-600 over two years.

........

Will they have to be Catholics?"
.

Was it Croatia that announced last week they wouldn't take Muslim refugees?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Will they have to be Catholics?"

That's just silly.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"If our lives fuck up do we emigrate. NO we stay put and strive to put things right and not go to be a burden on other countries. In the uk we are seen as easy pickings, cash housing, all there for the taking. I ask you this if we where to go to there country, how would they treat us. I rest my case"

If you went there in peace times, you'd probably find good people, interested in you and happy to invite you to their homes for dinner.

Your views are based on pure ignorance

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By *LCCCouple
over a year ago

Cambridge

"Germany to take 800,000 refugees/migrants, hundreds of thousands of whom are moving through Greece, Hungary, Serbia and Austria.

And we're getting out knickers in a twist about 6,000 at Calais?

Hmmm.

In Ireland our Minister Defense has commited to "talking about" taking in 300-600 over two years.

He's afraid of losing the thick, ignorant, xenophobic vote.

It's a joke.

Im just throwing it out there as devil's advocate, but there are Burmese refugee camps in Thailand housing more than 150,000 people, that have been there for 31 years. Shouldn't these people be given safe haven in a 3rd country before these newer Syrian or Libyian refugees?

Can you imagine there are people who at the age of 31 have NEVER left the camp? Think about the limited options for education, employment, healthcare, or even love.

These people are housed right on the border and are not safe, they have suffered from cross border shelling, disease and natural disasters.

So who should we take in first?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I don't have the answers to all the shit stuff in the world unfortunately.

I think we have an opportunity to help at least some people right now though.

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By *ee VianteWoman
over a year ago

Somewhere in North Norfolk

How often have we, in our lifetimes, had to face war, extreme civil unrest, religious persecution and genocide in this country?

I think many of us, particularly those with the financial means to leave, would be very likely to head to other countries if we faced those situations.

Of course, we're mostly western, educated and white skinned so it'd be entirely different for us if we did.

What sort of "fuck up"s have you had in your life that remotely resemble what many asylum seekers faced in their homelands?

Your case makes you look rather ignorant of what's going on in the world.

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By *oo hotCouple
over a year ago

North West

They have not fucked their lives up. "The West" funded by your tax contributions created the mess that is Syria, Iraq and Libya. Many of these people are normal families just like us and are fleeing murder, mayhem and misery inflicted by either religious death squads or militia's affiliated to one or other government or religious sect.

It is not human nature to up sticks and move your family from the place that has been home for generations. Only desperate people do really desperate things. Unfortunately, we created and still contribute to this desperate situation because the war on terror is currently unwinnable in the way that it is being undertaken.

The exodus out of Africa and the Middle East has been going on for thousands of years in a stop start fashion according to which particular sect or minority is being targeted and by whom.

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By *aneandpaulCouple
over a year ago

cleveleys

easy way to solve this move them all out all whats left shoot them them all these nice people that have had to leave there home land move them back so we all can live happy ever after

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By *iss_tressWoman
over a year ago

London

"Have you seen them on the news to night well you do gooders put them up in your spare room think you will think different "

I have to say, going by the news coverage, my heart sank. These were angry, strong, young men with steely determination: not people I'd want as neighbours.

The pictures of toddlers sleeping in dirt though tugged at my heart. How do we help some without excluding the other?

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By *iss_tressWoman
over a year ago

London

"And then the corollary of this is the collapse of the Shengen Agreement - ie the idea of free movement of peoples within the EU.

It's all a bit of a mess.

Isn't it the free movement of people from EU member countries throughout the EU?

Asylum seekers aren't from EU member countries.

Theoretically, if they are genuine asylum seekers, they should be happy to accept asylum in the first safe country or from any safe country offering it.

Indeed.

But if you're a poor, small EU state - say Greece or Hungary - and you have 100s of 1000s of migrants coming at you saying they want to go to Germany, Sweden or the UK...

Are you *seriously* gonna say 'Stay here'.

I don't think those countries should have to take all the incoming asylum seekers.

I do think they should be registered there. We need to put a system in place to distribute them fairly.

Seems fair to me.

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By *arry247Couple
over a year ago

Wakefield

These people, as you say, who are they?

Very good but the arguement that they are fleeing death ends at the first EU country they enter.

Once they move from that first safe country they are no longer fleeing death they in fact become economic migrants.

No two ways about it.

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By *otlovefun42Couple
over a year ago

Costa Blanca Spain...

These people, as you say, who are they?

I know from first hand experience that some of "these" people, quite possibly the vast majority are fleeing because the alternative would almost certainly mean death,for men, women and children alike

Very good but the arguement that they are fleeing death ends at the first EU country they enter.

Once they move from that first safe country they are no longer fleeing death they in fact become economic migrants.

No two ways about it.

That is pretty much how I see it. However, it cannot be left to Greece and Italy to shoulder the entire burden. I'm no lover of the EU (in fact I despise it) but we've got it and it is high time it got its act together on this.

Firstly all migrants must be registered in the first EU country they arrive in.

Secondly the purely economic migrants (and there are lots of them) must be ed out and sent back to where they came from, mostly sub Saharan Africa but also country's such as Vietnam, Bangladesh, Pakistan, Albania Etc.

Thirdly the genuine refugees must be allocated to EU country's based on that country's available space and financial ability (with EU help) to look after them. Britain and Germany included, but also the likes of Romania, and Bulgaria where there is plenty of space. However the refugees being able to choose which country they are allocated to must NOT be an option.

Lastly it must be made clear that their refugee status is only temporary (reviewed every couple of years or so) and has conditions including no free movement between country's and instant cancellation should they be involved in any criminal activity.

Some may think that it is a bit harsh, but if the safety of these people is your primary concern rather than it being a smokescreen for unfettered immigration then how can you disagree?

BTW. I see that the EU has acted in its usual quick and decisive fashion (not) and called for an "Emergency Meeting" in a couple of weeks time.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"But if I sound like I'm getting shirty, I'm not. It's a huge problem, and one that requires a concerted, group effort from EU nations.

ALL of us.

Even if you build a fence all the way around Europe there's still a lot of water that can be crossed.

The problem won't be wished away. .

Well said

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By *phroditeWoman
over a year ago

(She/ her) in Sensualityland

The exodus out of Africa and the Middle East has been going on for thousands of years in a stop start fashion according to which particular sect or minority is being targeted and by whom. "

I agree with you here.

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By *irtyGirlWoman
over a year ago

Edinburgh

I like the people of Iceland.

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By *aneandpaulCouple
over a year ago

cleveleys

That lot in Hungary would you like them living next door to you

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By *phroditeWoman
over a year ago

(She/ her) in Sensualityland

At least EU politicians ARE beginning to take the situation a bit more seriously - hopefully they can find a humane solution for all those people.

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By *irtyGirlWoman
over a year ago

Edinburgh

"That lot in Hungary would you like them living next door to you"

That lot?

Seriously... this is why I generally steer clear of the Daily Fail threads. That lot? These are people. Humans. Just like you and me. To refer to them as 'that lot' is pretty poor in my view.

Everyone has the right to be safe.

*wanders of shaking head*

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By *phroditeWoman
over a year ago

(She/ her) in Sensualityland

"That lot in Hungary would you like them living next door to you

That lot?

Seriously... this is why I generally steer clear of the Daily Fail threads. That lot? These are people. Humans. Just like you and me. To refer to them as 'that lot' is pretty poor in my view.

Everyone has the right to be safe.

*wanders of shaking head*"

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By *appyguy17Man
over a year ago

walthamstow

I think the world is for everyone...

We are all equal....

Why is someone born in West Africa less important than Donald Trump ???

We have this lovely bit of earth called Europe....lets have it to ourselves !!

Anyone outside these borders (who has a right to decide them)....can starve be terrorised.....have no homes etc.

Every human being has a right to anything on this earth...!!

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Basically, there is a moral duty to help these people and while everyone agrees on this principle, nobody quite thinks it should be them who has to help..."

Well said sir.

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By *ee VianteWoman
over a year ago

Somewhere in North Norfolk

"That lot in Hungary would you like them living next door to you

That lot?

Seriously... this is why I generally steer clear of the Daily Fail threads. That lot? These are people. Humans. Just like you and me. To refer to them as 'that lot' is pretty poor in my view.

Everyone has the right to be safe.

*wanders of shaking head*"

Just like us except traumatised by witnessing atrocities, having lost family and friends, (some of whom may have died brutally), their home and the majority of their possessions. They may not have had much by UK standards, but they probably lost/had to leave things they treasured.

Viewing people as "that lot" is utterly shameful.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

The majority are refugees, not migrants.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I like the people of Iceland.

Me too. If\when they get to Sweden, they get automatic citizenship apparently.

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By *phroditeWoman
over a year ago

(She/ her) in Sensualityland

"I think the world is for everyone...

We are all equal....

Why is someone born in West Africa less important than Donald Trump ???

We have this lovely bit of earth called Europe....lets have it to ourselves !!

Anyone outside these borders (who has a right to decide them)....can starve be terrorised.....have no homes etc.

Every human being has a right to anything on this earth...!!"

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

People confuse Immigrants and refugees with illegal immigrants, in the same way they confuse Muslims with terrorists.

Seems that certain media has done a good job manipulating the sheep again.

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By *phroditeWoman
over a year ago

(She/ her) in Sensualityland

"Basically, there is a moral duty to help these people and while everyone agrees on this principle, nobody quite thinks it should be them who has to help...

Well said sir.

"
It is the "not in my backyard" thinking.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I think the world is for everyone...

We are all equal....

Why is someone born in West Africa less important than Donald Trump ???

We have this lovely bit of earth called Europe....lets have it to ourselves !!

Anyone outside these borders (who has a right to decide them)....can starve be terrorised.....have no homes etc.

Every human being has a right to anything on this earth...!!"

I totally agree, we need to end this pointless division.

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By *arry247Couple
over a year ago

Wakefield

"People confuse Immigrants and refugees with illegal immigrants, in the same way they confuse Muslims with terrorists.

Seems that certain media has done a good job manipulating the sheep again."

No confusion at all as soon as they land in the EU they are no longer refugees as they have reached a safe haven.

If they then wish to move to a different country they are simply economic migrants.

If they manage to travel to a non Schengen area of the EU they are illegal immigrants.

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By *LCCCouple
over a year ago

Cambridge

[Removed by poster at 02/09/15 13:48:28]

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By *LCCCouple
over a year ago

Cambridge

"People confuse Immigrants and refugees with illegal immigrants, in the same way they confuse Muslims with terrorists.

Seems that certain media has done a good job manipulating the sheep again.

No confusion at all as soon as they land in the EU they are no longer refugees as they have reached a safe haven.

If they then wish to move to a different country they are simply economic migrants.

If they manage to travel to a non Schengen area of the EU they are illegal immigrants.

They are only refugees after they have granted refugee status by UNHCR. Before that they could be asylum seekers or economic migrants.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"People confuse Immigrants and refugees with illegal immigrants, in the same way they confuse Muslims with terrorists.

Seems that certain media has done a good job manipulating the sheep again.

No confusion at all as soon as they land in the EU they are no longer refugees as they have reached a safe haven.

If they then wish to move to a different country they are simply economic migrants.

If they manage to travel to a non Schengen area of the EU they are illegal immigrants.

If only everyone could see that.

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By *oo hotCouple
over a year ago

North West

[Removed by poster at 02/09/15 15:13:41]

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By *oo hotCouple
over a year ago

North West

"People confuse Immigrants and refugees with illegal immigrants, in the same way they confuse Muslims with terrorists.

Seems that certain media has done a good job manipulating the sheep again.

No confusion at all as soon as they land in the EU they are no longer refugees as they have reached a safe haven.

If they then wish to move to a different country they are simply economic migrants.

If they manage to travel to a non Schengen area of the EU they are illegal immigrants.

If only everyone could see that."

You want to start imposing rules on innocent people and yet let our governments act with impunity undertaking illegal wars and creating this very mess in the first place?

This whole concept of claiming refugee status in the first country they get to is nonsense and if applied rigorously would cause Greece and Italy to sink under the weight of refugee's.

Germany and Sweden have different agenda's to other parts of the EU and this is why the refugee's want to get there undetected. As long as the EU does not have joined up thinking between the EU National Governments then this crisis will continue and probably get worse.

Just to put this into context though. Around 4,000,000 (4 million) people have been displaced out of Syria alone and almost 99% of those people are still in hell hole refugee camps in Turkey, Egypt, Jordan and Lebanon because they dont have the money to get to Europe. Add to that those who are fleeing Daesh terror in Iraq and Libya and you can comfortably predict that this is going to get a whole lot worse before it gets better. Finally, remember that Tunisia and Egypt are very much a focus of more Daesh land grabs and so that is another issue on the horizon whilst we are not even dealing with this one properly.

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By *phroditeWoman
over a year ago

(She/ her) in Sensualityland

"People confuse Immigrants and refugees with illegal immigrants, in the same way they confuse Muslims with terrorists.

Seems that certain media has done a good job manipulating the sheep again.

No confusion at all as soon as they land in the EU they are no longer refugees as they have reached a safe haven.

If they then wish to move to a different country they are simply economic migrants.

If they manage to travel to a non Schengen area of the EU they are illegal immigrants.

If only everyone could see that.

You want to start imposing rules on innocent people and yet let our governments act with impunity undertaking illegal wars and creating this very mess in the first place?

This whole concept of claiming refugee status in the first country they get to is nonsense and if applied rigorously would cause Greece and Italy to sink under the weight of refugee's.

Much better put than I could have done!

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By *anejohnkent6263Couple
over a year ago

canterbury

come on you uk do gooders....welcome them all ,pay them money,give them a house,medical care,help the families back in there own country.lets just hope they get a house next to you,the barstards will turn it into a shit hole in weeks,ask the people of dover how they behave and treat people who help them like shit.they are economic migrants SEND THE BUGGERS BACK AND FEND FOR THEMSELVES .....SHIT HAPPENS NEVER MIND

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By *irtyGirlWoman
over a year ago

Edinburgh

"come on you uk do gooders....welcome them all ,pay them money,give them a house,medical care,help the families back in there own country.lets just hope they get a house next to you,the barstards will turn it into a shit hole in weeks,ask the people of dover how they behave and treat people who help them like shit.they are economic migrants SEND THE BUGGERS BACK AND FEND FOR THEMSELVES .....SHIT HAPPENS NEVER MIND"

Frankly I'd rather live next door to them than someone with your attitude.

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By *oo hotCouple
over a year ago

North West

Just remember that people acting in your name created this mess. Innocent people never create the mess they are always the victims.

Whilst you have been sat at home drinking wine and getting fat with complacency, your governments have been creating the circumstances that have lead to 4,000,000 being displaced from their homes.

Your Government put the Daesh terrorists in place by removing Saddam Hussein and backing anto Assad terrorists. These terrorists are murdering people on a scale that you cannot even imagine and you want to keep the victims at arms length because they have brown skin and talk funny????

Do you realise that this is exactly how many Europeans reacted to the Jewish exodus in WW2. You don't have to be the primary oppressor to be bigoted.

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By *anejohnkent6263Couple
over a year ago

canterbury

truth hurts ask the people if they want these low lifes here...as we will when we have the referendum that will be the biggest issue ....migrants here..YES OR NO......the no vote will kick this government and many others to listen to the majority not the minority of do gooders

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By *phroditeWoman
over a year ago

(She/ her) in Sensualityland

Just remember that people acting in your name created this mess. Innocent people never create the mess they are always the victims.

Whilst you have been sat at home drinking wine and getting fat with complacency, your governments have been creating the circumstances that have lead to 4,000,000 being displaced from their homes.

Do you realise that this is exactly how many Europeans reacted to the Jewish exodus in WW2. You don't have to be the primary oppressor to be bigoted."

Again

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By *irtyGirlWoman
over a year ago

Edinburgh

"truth hurts ask the people if they want these low lifes here...as we will when we have the referendum that will be the biggest issue ....migrants here..YES OR NO......the no vote will kick this government and many others to listen to the majority not the minority of do gooders"

Low lifes?

That's even worse than 'that lot'!

Good grief I hope you never need help with anything.

Thankfully there are enough good people around who restore my faith in human nature and act as a counter balance to people like you.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion but I'm not sure I've ever been quite so ashamed of a fellow human in all the time I've been around forums. That's quite something.

I'm out.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Frankly I'd rather live next door to them than someone with your attitude.

I said something similar on another thread, works everytime.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I hope you are in the minority, this world needs compassionate human beings.

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By *oo hotCouple
over a year ago

North West

So in your world, it is OK to bomb other people, to cause them to suffer regime change in their own country, to experience, torture, murder and rape but you dont want to take any responsibility for this?

Do you even understand why millions of people in Iraq, Syria and Libya are fleeing for their lives? IT IS BECAUSE OF WHAT WE DID! It may have been well meaning at the time but the consequence is now a cluster fuck of epic proportions and we have no moral, legal or ethical right to now turn our back on people whose lives we have ALREADY destroyed.

When you make a decision to take an action in your life for all the right reasons, but it turns out to be a fuck up you cant just pretend that you never did anything and hide away from the consequences.

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By *icky999Man
over a year ago

warrington

if you can jump a fence you can join the resistance.

vulva la restaurant

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By *anejohnkent6263Couple
over a year ago

canterbury

no shame at all lets look after our own people first we are not the worlds dumping ground......vote no...out of the eu....vote no to do gooders...if only you lived in kent u would then see the shit we the tax payers of kent have to put up with...vermin

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By *ngel n tedCouple
over a year ago

maidstone

Frankly I'd rather live next door to them than someone with your attitude.

Luckily for you, you won't have to, tucked up there in edinburgh. To be honest, dover is a bit of a shithole, it all started when the albanians came during the balkan crisis an just hasn't stopped....multiple gangs of 8 to 20 or so young chaps roaming the town centre, intimidating the locals and causing aggro. Amongst all the other shenanigans that go on, i think the folk of dover have a right to be a tad pissed off. I go there quite a bit and see for myself, perhaps others should

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By *phroditeWoman
over a year ago

(She/ her) in Sensualityland

It was Kent where Jihadi Sally came from, wasn't it? I guess I can understand some of the high emotions surrounding this.

Nonetheless, I think it is possible to look after one's own AND other people in need.

We do when we donate to the NSPCC for example.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

As with many things, there are those that are suffering genuinely and those that are simply seeing an opportunity.

To label every person as an 'economic migrant' is rubbish. I accept that there will be those seeking to jump on the bandwagon, but the reality of the position is that there is a huge proportion who have been through hell to leave their country of origin.

What is going on in Syria, Iraq, Libya etc is beyond comprehension, especially Syria. Hence why there are 10's of thousands seeking to leave (in syria's case millions).

The Dublin rules do dictate that you should claim asylum in the first safe state you arrive in, but before you criticise those who haven't, Germany have publicised the fact that they will take 800,000 and therefore it stands to reason that an individual will want to go to a country where they think they have been invited and will be welcomed.

The world is facing a humanitarian crisis not seen since WWII and therefore the world has to act. I don't profess to have the answer, but you cannot maintain a position that it can be ignored.

Assad in Syria is murdering citizens by the thousand.

Thousands were killed in Iraq because of the Maliki regime post war.

Libya is in chaos with the constant threat of Daesh and other militant groups vying for power.

The Rohynga in Myamar are effectively stateless.

Autocracy is developing in Bangladesh.

I could go on.

Heads of state need to get together, accept the reality and stop political rhetoric and point scoring. The crisis isn't going to end anytime soon and will only get worse.

Until you have witnessed what goes on in these states you cannot truly understand the magnitude of the situation, and yes I have given the work that I do

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Frankly I'd rather live next door to them than someone with your attitude.

We only have problems with white british gangs doing the same thing here, so I suppose that's ok.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"no shame at all lets look after our own people first we are not the worlds dumping ground......vote no...out of the eu....vote no to do gooders...if only you lived in kent u would then see the shit we the tax payers of kent have to put up with...vermin"

Why dont you move then..

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By *entaur_UKMan
over a year ago

Cannock

The EU referendum question has now changed on the recommendation of the electoral commision. Yes and No will no longer be the options available instead it has been changed to "Remain" in the EU or "Leave" the EU.

I think this is now much fairer as the "Yes" option could be deemed an unfair advantage. When the vote comes i'll be voting "Leave".

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Eurostar had to stop in the tunnel for 4hrs during the night as migrants was in the tunnel and climb onto the train.

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By *nnyMan
over a year ago

Glasgow

I think this is now much fairer as the "Yes" option could be deemed an unfair advantage. When the vote comes i'll be voting "Leave". "

Didn't do Salmond much good, did it?

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By *arry247Couple
over a year ago

Wakefield

Just remember that people acting in your name created this mess. Innocent people never create the mess they are always the victims.

Whilst you have been sat at home drinking wine and getting fat with complacency, your governments have been creating the circumstances that have lead to 4,000,000 being displaced from their homes.

Well if you believe that naive simplistic rhetoric you will believe anything

The Sunnis have been fighting Shiites for centuries actually since 632 a little bit before my government existed that alone interfered with anyone, but hey, don’t let facts interfere with a good rant.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I obviously don't have the answers, But why are the "World leaders" letting Is continue with what they are doing in Syria/Iraq ? Keeping all the bad eggs in one basket ? No profit in peace ?

It's only giving terrorists in other countries more confidence to "take over"

People fleeing from their own countries in there thousands in fear of their lives, They have to go somewhere but they all can't keep coming to Europe

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By *oo hotCouple
over a year ago

North West

Just remember that people acting in your name created this mess. Innocent people never create the mess they are always the victims.

Whilst you have been sat at home drinking wine and getting fat with complacency, your governments have been creating the circumstances that have lead to 4,000,000 being displaced from their homes.

Well if you believe that naive simplistic rhetoric you will believe anything

Indeed and who kept the peace (if the is the right way of describing it) in recent years? Our intervention in removing Sad day Hussein and opposing Assad has directly created the vacuum that has allowed the Daesh to flourish.

But hey, don't let the facts interfere with your prejudices.

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By *anejohnkent6263Couple
over a year ago

canterbury

yes I could leave kent ....I could move to where these peasants come from because lets face it there wont be many of them left there so I will have lots of space and a choice of houses etc etc

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By *oo hotCouple
over a year ago

North West

Just remember that people acting in your name created this mess. Innocent people never create the mess they are always the victims.

Whilst you have been sat at home drinking wine and getting fat with complacency, your governments have been creating the circumstances that have lead to 4,000,000 being displaced from their homes.

Well if you believe that naive simplistic rhetoric you will believe anything

But hey, don't let the facts interfere with your prejudices."

Sad day = ironic auto correct for Saddam.

And just to add, Daesh are now highly active in Libya as well ... And who did we help remove from power there?

I said in an earlier post that people had been fleeing persecution and murder in Africa and the Middle East for centuries so in part I do agree. I am saying that this most recent refugee exodus is directly as a consequence of our actions in Iraq, Libya and Syria because we created the vacuum that was never possible when strong Dictators were in control of their own borders.

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By *oo hotCouple
over a year ago

North West

"yes I could leave kent ....I could move to where these peasants come from because lets face it there wont be many of them left there so I will have lots of space and a choice of houses etc etc"

You might have to dodge the odd Daesh be header or ten and agree to live under extreme sharia law for as long as your very short life expectancy might allow.

Other than that Most of Syria, Iraq and Libya is fairly empty now. Thanks to our well intentioned involvement.

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By *aneandpaulCouple
over a year ago

cleveleys

Is Mr Nordy for real or just a wind up merchant

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By *anejohnkent6263Couple
over a year ago

canterbury

as ex serviceman I very much doubt it...most of these people have spotted a gap and gone for it ...when I was out that way most of the people were in good areas with work food etc ....these are economic migrants who spot a soft touch.....us and the gooders ....may be u could invite half a dozen into your home and pay for them...new idea ADOPT A MIGRANT....MUST run that past the pm.......VOTE LEAVE.....

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By *aneandpaulCouple
over a year ago

cleveleys

True

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Have you seen them on the news to night well you do gooders put them up in your spare room think you will think different

I have to say, going by the news coverage, my heart sank. These were angry, strong, young men with steely determination: not people I'd want as neighbours.

The pictures of toddlers sleeping in dirt though tugged at my heart. How do we help some without excluding the other? "

Seeing the media pictures of those toddlers asleep in the dirt on the ground absolutely breaks my heart.

I have no idea as to how the crisis could even begin to be resolved, but the governments of the world need to get their acts together to do something. AND QUICKLY. Winter is coming, and these little children need saving from their desperate plight.

I have said that we need to sort out our problems at home first before taking refugees in, but would accept that those of a responsible age, ie adults, must accept the hand that fate deals them...the children on the other hand need some form of action NOW. I do understand the moral and ethical dilemma of separating families, but it is not possible to resolve the situation to the point that everyone gets what they want.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Have you seen them on the news to night well you do gooders put them up in your spare room think you will think different

I have to say, going by the news coverage, my heart sank. These were angry, strong, young men with steely determination: not people I'd want as neighbours.

The pictures of toddlers sleeping in dirt though tugged at my heart. How do we help some without excluding the other?

Seeing the media pictures of those toddlers asleep in the dirt on the ground absolutely breaks my heart.

Why separate the children from their parents, that will add to their trauma. Would you accept that as the hand fate dealt you, losing your kids and being left to die, easy to be so cold and calculated when it isn't happening to you and your children. The lack of compassion on this thread astounds me.

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By *phroditeWoman
over a year ago

(She/ her) in Sensualityland

"Have you seen them on the news to night well you do gooders put them up in your spare room think you will think different

I have to say, going by the news coverage, my heart sank. These were angry, strong, young men with steely determination: not people I'd want as neighbours.

The pictures of toddlers sleeping in dirt though tugged at my heart. How do we help some without excluding the other?

Seeing the media pictures of those toddlers asleep in the dirt on the ground absolutely breaks my heart.

I saw saw a picture released by teh Anonymous group of a toddler lying on the beach, his parents (presumably) a few undred metres away - all dead. Drowned. If this kind of image, and it is only one of hundreds of personal tragedies does not move people then I really do wonder what happened to humanity.

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By *phroditeWoman
over a year ago

(She/ her) in Sensualityland

The lack of compassion on this thread astounds me."
I agree - it is just so sad.

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By *anejohnkent6263Couple
over a year ago

canterbury

well you adopt six then

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Have you seen them on the news to night well you do gooders put them up in your spare room think you will think different

I have to say, going by the news coverage, my heart sank. These were angry, strong, young men with steely determination: not people I'd want as neighbours.

The pictures of toddlers sleeping in dirt though tugged at my heart. How do we help some without excluding the other?

Seeing the media pictures of those toddlers asleep in the dirt on the ground absolutely breaks my heart.

Not a lack of compassion or cold you muppet. How many of those children will die out in the cold if left like they are now?

It's a shit hand, yes, but if I knew my kids would be warm and fed, I'd take WHATEVER hand fate dealt me. Yes, it would be nice to sort everyone out, but practicalities mean the few resources that ARE available need to be prioritised.

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By *phroditeWoman
over a year ago

(She/ her) in Sensualityland

I am still wondering if anybody has a suggestion which would aid towards a solution. I am aware we cannot help everybody in the same way but what on earth is the alternative?

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By *anchestercubMan
over a year ago

manchester & NI

When I've seen the photos of the dead kids on Twitter, it's made me think of the Kindertransport.

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By *LCCCouple
over a year ago

Cambridge

Wow, how depressingly bigoted. Vermin? What kind of a human being are you?

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By *eavenNhellCouple
over a year ago

carrbrook stalybridge

"When I've seen the photos of the dead kids on Twitter, it's made me think of the Kindertransport."
was thinking exactley the same thought how would sir nicholas winton be recieved or percieved in the present day ? no doubt would be pilloried besmirched and smeared by the right wing media for his selfless actions

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By *anejohnkent6263Couple
over a year ago

canterbury

a very happy one who says it as it is scroungers most of them ...send them back to there own country.....ps if u are that worried for them maybe you could offer a home for a few....in your lovely house ....oh no make all of us pay for them

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

50,000 children die every day from poverty!.

And have done for years.

120,000 people died from un sanctions of Iraq and Iran in 20 years!.

You know what you really are... people who don't give a fuck but can't bear to look at it!

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By *phroditeWoman
over a year ago

(She/ her) in Sensualityland

I wonder whether it really is about that - people cannot bear to look at the reality and this is understandable because it is so horrible.

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By *anchestercubMan
over a year ago

manchester & NI

"I wonder whether it really is about that - people cannot bear to look at the reality and this is understandable because it is so horrible. "

But it's always a case of out of sight out of mind.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Have you seen them on the news to night well you do gooders put them up in your spare room think you will think different

I have to say, going by the news coverage, my heart sank. These were angry, strong, young men with steely determination: not people I'd want as neighbours.

The pictures of toddlers sleeping in dirt though tugged at my heart. How do we help some without excluding the other?

Seeing the media pictures of those toddlers asleep in the dirt on the ground absolutely breaks my heart.

Not a lack of compassion or cold you muppet. How many of those children will die out in the cold if left like they are now?

Of course it is , Europe and the UK have the means to deal with this, it's just they don't care and the people who do rarely have the means to help, there is no reason families can't be kept together and helped other than greed and bigoted idiots.

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By *phroditeWoman
over a year ago

(She/ her) in Sensualityland

"I wonder whether it really is about that - people cannot bear to look at the reality and this is understandable because it is so horrible.

But it's always a case of out of sight out of mind.

This country was at war for 10 years in Iraq and Afghanistan but did we feel like a country in the midst of a 10 year war? No, we were very safe back home. Most people didn't pay any attention unless they had friends or family in the military or were anti-war in ideology. "
Very good point and perhaps that lack of empathy seen on this thread, that inhumanity is more about not being close enought to see the problem. You see to me it is sooo not a debate about Europe or whatever.. it is about people, men, women, children, families, grandparents etc

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By *ouple in LancashireCouple
over a year ago

in Lancashire

The lack of compassion on this thread astounds me.I agree - it is just so sad."

It should do but sadly it doesn't surprise me one bit with some on here, the same old racist, vile ignorance from those totally lacking in humanity..

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By *anchestercubMan
over a year ago

manchester & NI

"I wonder whether it really is about that - people cannot bear to look at the reality and this is understandable because it is so horrible.

But it's always a case of out of sight out of mind.

This country was at war for 10 years in Iraq and Afghanistan but did we feel like a country in the midst of a 10 year war? No, we were very safe back home. Most people didn't pay any attention unless they had friends or family in the military or were anti-war in ideology. Very good point and perhaps that lack of empathy seen on this thread, that inhumanity is more about not being close enought to see the problem. You see to me it is sooo not a debate about Europe or whatever.. it is about people, men, women, children, families, grandparents etc

I have no doubt that if roles were reversed, so attitudes would be also.

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By *anejohnkent6263Couple
over a year ago

canterbury

as the U.S.A sent us to war in the mid east perhaps they could take a million or so ....guess not

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By *phroditeWoman
over a year ago

(She/ her) in Sensualityland

" You see to me it is sooo not a debate about Europe or whatever.. it is about people, men, women, children, families, grandparents etc

I have no doubt that if roles were reversed, so attitudes would be also. "
Maybe! It is about putting yourself into the shoes of the other person? Some people naturally have it but some people have to work in it I guess

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By *anejohnkent6263Couple
over a year ago

canterbury

oh no insults ...prob fit in well with yr ......thick as shite imergrants who only seem to know how to fill in dole or housing benefit forms...lets all help them.....onto boats back to there own country

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"yes I could leave kent ....I could move to where these peasants come from because lets face it there wont be many of them left there so I will have lots of space and a choice of houses etc etc"

Please do. Please leave Kent and move to Syria, I don't want people like you to be in the same country as me. Much appreciated, when do you fly?

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By *anchestercubMan
over a year ago

manchester & NI

Tell them to leave Hungary, they can annex Kent.

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