FabSwingers.com forum: Welfare reform

By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

Its voting tonight about the welfare reform changes, what do you recon will happen? Labour is urging mps to not to vote for it as they fare the worst.

Which includes plans to limit child tax credit to two children.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I think they will do something to fuck over pensioners and the disabled because they're costing the country the most. But they'll sneakily do it, it won't be obvious.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Welfare is minimal, they are liars, they use it all as a smokescreen to cover up the real drain on the economy. Them and their 1% ilk. Fuck them!

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By *uby0000Woman
over a year ago

hertfordshire

"I think they will do something to fuck over pensioners and the disabled because they're costing the country the most. But they'll sneakily do it, it won't be obvious."

they have already fucked over the disabled

bastards

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By *ranfondoMan
over a year ago

Cambridgeshire

Biggest element of Welfare ....is not Unemployment or so called scroungers......but Pensioners old age entitlement... Let's face it...that is deferred wages put by for later life....if governments have spent it..then its not us to blame

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Its voting tonight about the welfare reform changes, what do you recon will happen? Labour is urging mps to not to vote for it as they fare the worst.

Which includes plans to limit child tax credit to two children."

I think you got that wrong. Harman was urging for her MPs not to vote against it. It has now reached the committee stage.

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By *inaTitzTV/TS
over a year ago

Titz Towers, North Notts

Pensioners are safe from a blatant money grab, as they vote

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

"Its voting tonight about the welfare reform changes, what do you recon will happen? Labour is urging mps to not to vote for it as they fare the worst.

Which includes plans to limit child tax credit to two children.

I think you got that wrong. Harman was urging for her MPs not to vote against it. It has now reached the committee stage."
Yes I might be there, was abit confusing.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

It's a horrible fact that we will turn into greece if nothing is done + immigrants are just coming here for free benefits, changes are needed.

If you have worked and paid your tax your for years, you get fair benefits, benefits should be paid to british citizens, not just anyone who walks into the country.

One reasons the are being cut is because of the influx of european + world immigrants, the books have to be balanced, so the same money has to be shared more thinly

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Its time to stop Universal benefits. Those with a private pension of more than £2,000 a month don't get the state pension. Child Benefit for all children but a cap on payment to those earning £35k or more. A daily payment of £10 per day to the NHS for non acute care for those earning £35k or more. The benefit system was created in the post war era and its needs bringing into the 21st century.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Its voting tonight about the welfare reform changes, what do you recon will happen? Labour is urging mps to not to vote for it as they fare the worst.

Which includes plans to limit child tax credit to two children.

I think you got that wrong. Harman was urging for her MPs not to vote against it. It has now reached the committee stage.Yes I might be there, was abit confusing."

No comment on the bill. I am pretty certain there were other threads on that.

I did however find it quite refreshing/disgusting/take your choice that the opposition party (oh, ok, that is the SNP now) did not for once just bleat and shout. I get so riled when any proposal is just fecked off.

And that is no comment on my reaction to that particular policy.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Labour does not have the guts required to vote against the reforms, they are worried about upsetting 'middle England' in their quest to be elected next time.

The fact is, the reforms will hit the poorest in society while letting the high earners reap the benefits of any slight improvement in the economy.

Take the new 'living wage' in relation to tax credits. To claim the credit you have to be working at least 16 hours a week which will, at the hourly rate of the 'living wage', will put you over the threshold for tax credits. So no more tax credits?

Labour need to wake up and stop trying to be 'Tory Light'. Maybe then people will vote for them.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Labour does not have the guts required to vote against the reforms, they are worried about upsetting 'middle England' in their quest to be elected next time.

The fact is, the reforms will hit the poorest in society while letting the high earners reap the benefits of any slight improvement in the economy.

Labour need to wake up and stop trying to be 'Tory Light'. Maybe then people will vote for them."

Spot on

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Labour does not have the guts required to vote against the reforms, they are worried about upsetting 'middle England' in their quest to be elected next time.

The fact is, the reforms will hit the poorest in society while letting the high earners reap the benefits of any slight improvement in the economy.

Labour need to wake up and stop trying to be 'Tory Light'. Maybe then people will vote for them.

Spot on

Corbyn then. I can chant Billy Bragg songs, too.

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By *ouple in LancashireCouple
over a year ago

in Lancashire

Labour need to wake up and stop trying to be 'Tory Light'. Maybe then people will vote for them."

A bit late for that..

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By *icketysplitsWoman
over a year ago

Way over Yonder, that's where I'm bound

Have a look at this infographic from ONS. It shows how spending on welfare went up under the Coalition - I think driven by the austerity measures. It was 35% of spend in 2009/10 and 37% in 2013/14.

visual.ons.gov.uk/welfare-spending/

What they are doing now is pushing the spend around the board. It will appear in our health spend or in the crime figures.

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

"Its voting tonight about the welfare reform changes, what do you recon will happen? Labour is urging mps to not to vote for it as they fare the worst.

Which includes plans to limit child tax credit to two children.

I think you got that wrong. Harman was urging for her MPs not to vote against it. It has now reached the committee stage.Yes I might be there, was abit confusing.

No comment on the bill. I am pretty certain there were other threads on that.

And that is no comment on my reaction to that particular policy."

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By *ophieslutTV/TS
over a year ago

Central

Labour and other politicians should vote against this vile act, not letting it pass, without amendments. Or vote and reject it fully. We need an effective opposition and the conservatives would not release these details before the election - they are thus plans that weren't voted for by the public.

Harman out, she's insufficient backbone.

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

"Labour and other politicians should vote against this vile act, not letting it pass, without amendments. Or vote and reject it fully. We need an effective opposition and the conservatives would not release these details before the election - they are thus plans that weren't voted for by the public.

Harman out, she's insufficient backbone. "
Yes I would even say, bring back tony and Gordon, they were the strongest leaders so far.

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By *oo hotCouple
over a year ago

North West

"Labour does not have the guts required to vote against the reforms, they are worried about upsetting 'middle England' in their quest to be elected next time.

The fact is, the reforms will hit the poorest in society while letting the high earners reap the benefits of any slight improvement in the economy.

Labour need to wake up and stop trying to be 'Tory Light'. Maybe then people will vote for them."

Whatever the populist thought on here may be, if Labour were to take a step to the left they would unlikely be elected again for decades.

Tony Blair made Labour electable by bossing the middle ground and any extreme step away from that, Left or Right does not go down well with the electorate.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I used to work in this area and the biggest costs were adults and elderly care and familys needed intervention.

Local authorities spend 1000's everyday in childcare costs for children who need to be taken out of the family environment.

The whole idea is that is the help isnt there they will get up and help themseleves.

But as we know one size fits all never works. Because not everyone is in the same circumstances.

Most poloticians are idiots... just saying

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Tories are driven by dogma. "Reduce support for the disabled and they will rise from their wheelchairs and go to work; for the minimum wage."

I do agree however that those on benefits long term should face a cap. If a guy works and gets £25k per year, he and his wife will not have 7 children because they cannot afford them. That is being responsible and welfare people should follow suit.

However, no political party will touch the Pensioners. The post war bulge is going through and they are living longer. Consequently there is a large number of them in and they vote!!

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

It's rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic. Our economy is a shambolic, service industry. In truth we can afford very little but still we borrow to feed the ravenous ideologies of big state, corporatism. Indebtedness is the new religion. Other options are available but will be gradually legislated away.

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By *aneandpaulCouple
over a year ago

cleveleys

Old age Pension is not a benifit like some try to make out

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

i dont suppose they mentioned the £30 billion pound loss we will take on RBS

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Well, i think it is safe to say that you got what you voted for and we got what we didnt vote for.

I dont think this budget came as a surprise. If it did then i would questioms intelligence levels.

Im afraid, tjis is all down to foreigners - the English

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Old age Pension is not a benifit like some try to make out"
How would you describe it?

The queen is entitled to draw it as is Philip Green who have a combined wealth of £4b! Go figure!!

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Well, i think it is safe to say that you got what you voted for and we got what we didnt vote for.

I dont think this budget came as a surprise. If it did then i would questioms intelligence levels.

Im afraid, tjis is all down to foreigners - the English

Conservatives got a majority - but not every English person voted for them! That's rather a generalisation.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Well, i think it is safe to say that you got what you voted for and we got what we didnt vote for.

I dont think this budget came as a surprise. If it did then i would questioms intelligence levels.

Im afraid, tjis is all down to foreigners - the English

Conservatives got a majority - but not every English person voted for them! That's rather a generalisation. "
63% of the population didn't vote Tory?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Well, i think it is safe to say that you got what you voted for and we got what we didnt vote for.

I dont think this budget came as a surprise. If it did then i would questioms intelligence levels.

Im afraid, tjis is all down to foreigners - the English

Conservatives got a majority - but not every English person voted for them! That's rather a generalisation. "

Of course it is a generalisation and we all know how the first past the post system works but England still voted Conservative.

Its no good complaining about what you knew was going to happen and still voted for them

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

So with regards to the welfare system do we just leave it as designed? Is the art of management (of the country in this case) is to monitor, re_iew and change?

The welfare system was designed to get away from the poverty of the 1920s and 30s when even Churchill recognised that the working classes laid down millions of lives in the great war and they deserved better.

Benefits need to be targeted so those that need them get them to ensure they can live decent and civilised lives when and until they can support themselves.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Well, i think it is safe to say that you got what you voted for and we got what we didnt vote for.

I dont think this budget came as a surprise. If it did then i would questioms intelligence levels.

Im afraid, tjis is all down to foreigners - the English

Conservatives got a majority - but not every English person voted for them! That's rather a generalisation.

Of course it is a generalisation and we all know how the first past the post system works but England still voted Conservative.

Its no good complaining about what you knew was going to happen and still voted for them"

Not complaining - just saying your facts aren't correct.

Anyway back to Shag's question - 50 labour MPs voted against it , but still got through.

Like others said welfare reforms are small change in the grand scheme of things!

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By *ee VianteWoman
over a year ago

Somewhere in North Norfolk

"Well, i think it is safe to say that you got what you voted for and we got what we didnt vote for.

I dont think this budget came as a surprise. If it did then i would questioms intelligence levels.

Im afraid, tjis is all down to foreigners - the English

Conservatives got a majority - but not every English person voted for them! That's rather a generalisation.

Of course it is a generalisation and we all know how the first past the post system works but England still voted Conservative.

Its no good complaining about what you knew was going to happen and still voted for them"

I'm English and I didn't vote for them, (but did vote). Don't bloody blame me.

I'm as lumbered with them as you are. At least you have a party willing to stand up and represent you.

Roughly one third of people who voted, (and less than a quarter of those able to vote), voted Tory, so the claim "the English voted them in" is massively misleading.

More than three quarters of us are stuck with them despite not voting for them.

Blame the MINORITY that voted for them and our stupid electoral system, not "the English".

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By *ee VianteWoman
over a year ago

Somewhere in North Norfolk

"Its time to stop Universal benefits. Those with a private pension of more than £2,000 a month don't get the state pension. Child Benefit for all children but a cap on payment to those earning £35k or more. A daily payment of £10 per day to the NHS for non acute care for those earning £35k or more. The benefit system was created in the post war era and its needs bringing into the 21st century. "

Those people with private pensions still paid into the state pension system and are as entitled to their state pension as much as any other pensioner.

I don't think it's reasonable to say, "you paid for this but you don't need it, so we're not giving it to you".

Imagine you didn't get something you'd paid for regularly throughout your entire working life simply because the government didn't manage the money responsibly and people less well off than you, (and those, perhaps, much better off, i.e. the politicians), decided you don't need it.

Sorry sir, we know you've paid for that tv/furniture/holiday/pension but we think you have enough tvs/furniture/holidays/money, so we're keeping the money but not giving you what you've paid for".

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Old age Pension is not a benifit like some try to make out How would you describe it?

The queen is entitled to draw it as is Philip Green who have a combined wealth of £4b! Go figure!!"

The Queen and Philip Green have worked bloody hard for their pension rights. Her Majesty is still working at the age 89. I do not for a moment begrudge them what they have earned.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

We just had an election, Tory party have an overall majority in the house, if every non Tory voted against it then it would still pass. Give it a year or so and MP's may possibly go against the party line join the opposition and it may be a hung vote, but not this soon.

There are 2 areas the government can work on one is income, i.e. more taxes, the other is expenditure e.g. less benefits, NHS, Infrastructure etc.

NHS is being cut but can't go to hard on that as people will notice the stealth privatisation.

Armed Forces, are already hammered, plus there is the middle east situation that could make further cuts seem irresponsible.

Civil Service, like the NHS has been privatised quite a lot so contracts make it difficult to make any more cuts.

Which leaves infrastructure and benefits, but infrastructure is often long term and contracts placed have to be honoured. So we are down to benefits.

So straight choice, put up taxes or cut benefits, they want to be re-elected so taxes are not much of an option.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Those people with private pensions still paid into the state pension system and are as entitled to their state pension as much as any other pensioner.

I don't think it's reasonable to say, "you paid for this but you don't need it, so we're not giving it to you".

Sorry sir, we know you've paid for that tv/furniture/holiday/pension but we think you have enough tvs/furniture/holidays/money, so we're keeping the money but not giving you what you've paid for"."

Then the country will go Greek in the next twenty years. You pay into a NI fund to provide for a state pension which from memory is 10.1%...........its unsustainable giving the aging population. Difficult choices I know but they are they are the lesser of other evils?

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By *aneandpaulCouple
over a year ago

cleveleys

just love it when these unmarried mothers with a house full of kids call state pension a benefit sat on there ass every day and applying to go on Jeremy Kyle

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Old age Pension is not a benifit like some try to make out How would you describe it?

The queen is entitled to draw it as is Philip Green who have a combined wealth of £4b! Go figure!!

The Queen and Philip Green have worked bloody hard for their pension rights. Her Majesty is still working at the age 89. I do not for a moment begrudge them what they have earned."
This kind of muffled and mogodon infused attitude just devalues the debate.

Are you really suggesting the Queen and Phillip Green need £600 per month from the state? The latter gets circa £36m and I think in times of dreadful austerity its £36m too much. But once a royalist always a royalist!

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"just love it when these unmarried mothers with a house full of kids call state pension a benefit sat on there ass every day and applying to go on Jeremy Kyle"
I truly give up on these debates. These "unmarried mothers" as you describe them are make up a very small number of people drawing benefits so not as to matter. If the enforcement of tax evasion or avoidance is perused vigorously Jeremy Kyle would be out of work!

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

It's amazing the number of people who will be affected by the changes. And of those people how many voted for those in power??

I'm about to be hit pretty hard by the changes. I'm in full time work but as a single parent I'm still seen as a drain so i'll be aprox 1500 a year worse off.

I didn't vote for these people I'm therfore justified in my complaints. However they got in so I'm assuming many people who will loose out did vote them in.

That's the sad part

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Old age Pension is not a benifit like some try to make out How would you describe it?

The queen is entitled to draw it as is Philip Green who have a combined wealth of £4b! Go figure!!

The Queen and Philip Green have worked bloody hard for their pension rights. Her Majesty is still working at the age 89. I do not for a moment begrudge them what they have earned.This kind of muffled and mogodon infused attitude just devalues the debate.

Phil Green doesn't pay his fair proportion of taxes!

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

well i dont think there should be working tax credits. I worked they werent in place for me when my kids were small why should government pay ppl to keep their kids, i dont mean those on benefits who cant work I mean working parents. This country is so short of money they have to make cuts somewhere

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By *ee VianteWoman
over a year ago

Somewhere in North Norfolk

"We just had an election, Tory party have an overall majority in the house, if every non Tory voted against it then it would still pass. Give it a year or so and MP's may possibly go against the party line join the opposition and it may be a hung vote, but not this soon.

There are 2 areas the government can work on one is income, i.e. more taxes, the other is expenditure e.g. less benefits, NHS, Infrastructure etc.

NHS is being cut but can't go to hard on that as people will notice the stealth privatisation.

Armed Forces, are already hammered, plus there is the middle east situation that could make further cuts seem irresponsible.

Civil Service, like the NHS has been privatised quite a lot so contracts make it difficult to make any more cuts.

Which leaves infrastructure and benefits, but infrastructure is often long term and contracts placed have to be honoured. So we are down to benefits.

So straight choice, put up taxes or cut benefits, they want to be re-elected so taxes are not much of an option. "

You say the Armed Forces have already been hammered but fail to mention that welfare has also already been hammered.

To read your posts you'd think that welfare hasn't been cut when in actual fact the cuts have already been vicious.

They've also been very unevenly applied.

The disabled have been hit 9 times more than anyone else and the severely disabled have been hit 19 times more.

You also suggest that tax is the only way to raise revenue. Even if that was the case, (and it isn't, there's a great deal of excess that could be cut, like £7000pa rises for MPs, bloated expenses and subsidised restaurant and bars), tackling tax avoidance and serious tax fraud would raise a huge amount of money without significantly hitting most regular people, and especially the poorest and most vulnerable who have already been disproportionately targeted.

If "we're all in this together" we should actually all be in it together and those making the decisions should be leading by example.

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By *ee VianteWoman
over a year ago

Somewhere in North Norfolk

Those people with private pensions still paid into the state pension system and are as entitled to their state pension as much as any other pensioner.

I don't think it's reasonable to say, "you paid for this but you don't need it, so we're not giving it to you".

Sorry sir, we know you've paid for that tv/furniture/holiday/pension but we think you have enough tvs/furniture/holidays/money, so we're keeping the money but not giving you what you've paid for".

Have you looked at the figures on tax avoidance recently?

How about rather than suggesting people aren't given what they've paid for, consider that very, very wealthy companies should be made to pay their fair share of tax.

The companies really are getting something for nothing.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"well i dont think there should be working tax credits. I worked they werent in place for me when my kids were small why should government pay ppl to keep their kids, i dont mean those on benefits who cant work I mean working parents. This country is so short of money they have to make cuts somewhere"

I'd agree if working parents earnt enough to cover the childcare costs to allow them to work.

Maybe back in the day people had family support offering free baby sitting. We are not all that lucky sadly.

And before anyone pipes up with you shouldn't have children if you can't look after them yourself, then I would urge you to look at the alternative. Would these people prefer I stayed in a very unhappy marriage or would it be preferable not to work and claim benefits? ?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"just love it when these unmarried mothers with a house full of kids call state pension a benefit sat on there ass every day and applying to go on Jeremy Kyle"

Why do single mothers always get bashed on these threads? Was there no guy involved in creating those children?

Many single mothers work - I bet if you look at stats the working single mums outweigh those that don't work.

Besides which - we all know there are some who play the system - as in those that claim to be single when in fact they've had 3 children spaced out over 5 years. Their partner lives with them, but they say they don't. The partner works but they claim housing benefit , single persons tax credits etc. those are the ones to go after rather than those that are truly struggling. Welfare benefits are needed for the vulnerable in our society.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Those people with private pensions still paid into the state pension system and are as entitled to their state pension as much as any other pensioner.

I don't think it's reasonable to say, "you paid for this but you don't need it, so we're not giving it to you".

Sorry sir, we know you've paid for that tv/furniture/holiday/pension but we think you have enough tvs/furniture/holidays/money, so we're keeping the money but not giving you what you've paid for".

Have you looked at the figures on tax avoidance recently?

How about rather than suggesting people aren't given what they've paid for, consider that very, very wealthy companies should be made to pay their fair share of tax.

The companies really are getting something for nothing."
If you are following the thread I made that point above.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Old age Pension is not a benifit like some try to make out How would you describe it?

The queen is entitled to draw it as is Philip Green who have a combined wealth of £4b! Go figure!!

A pension is a right following contributions over many years. It is not based on need and is not income support. We all pay into it to a greater or lesser degree over our working life.

So are you saying if the Queen bought a ticket and won on the lottery she would not be allowed to claim her prize because she already has money? If so at what level of income would lottery winners be prevented from claiming?

Now if her Majesty applied for income support ........

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By *radleyandRavenCouple
over a year ago

Herts

Those people with private pensions still paid into the state pension system and are as entitled to their state pension as much as any other pensioner.

I don't think it's reasonable to say, "you paid for this but you don't need it, so we're not giving it to you".

Sorry sir, we know you've paid for that tv/furniture/holiday/pension but we think you have enough tvs/furniture/holidays/money, so we're keeping the money but not giving you what you've paid for"."

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Old age Pension is not a benifit like some try to make out How would you describe it?

The queen is entitled to draw it as is Philip Green who have a combined wealth of £4b! Go figure!!

A pension is a right following contributions over many years. It is not based on need and is not income support. We all pay into it to a greater or lesser degree over our working life.

Now if her Majesty applied for income support ........

"
Please read the contributions above!

I stated that if the payment of universal benefits was to be maintained then we would go bust as its an unsustainable ambition. I am sampling saying those who have alternative means of income can do without the payment.

Frankly linking the lottery to the benefits system is either being very ironic or a waste of a paragraph.

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By *antonkid1955Man
over a year ago

cardiff

I agree that pensioners get fucked over..like most people I have paid an insurance policy(employment stamp) since I started work at 16..never claimed any benefits and now I'm 59 I've been told I have to wait until I'm 67 before my policy pays out..If the government was a private company they would be investigated by the fraud squad.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I agree that pensioners get fucked over..like most people I have paid an insurance policy(employment stamp) since I started work at 16..never claimed any benefits and now I'm 59 I've been told I have to wait until I'm 67 before my policy pays out..If the government was a private company they would be investigated by the fraud squad."
So what are your alternatives? Carry on as we are?

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By *est Wales WifeCouple
over a year ago

Near Carmarthen

Her Majesty is still working at the age 89. I do not for a moment begrudge them what they have earned."

Quite the most hilarious thing I've read for ages. They are the biggest bunch of benefit scroungers on the planet. Magical bloodline and you given get loads of dosh,castles and servants that we pay for.

I don't normally like Mr Brand but I'm with him on this one.

'I mean in England we have a Queen for fuck’s sake. A Queen! We have to call her things like “Your Majesty” YOUR MAJESTY! Like she’s all majestic, like an eagle or a mountain. She’s just a person. A little old lady in a shiny hat – that we paid for. Or “Your Highness”! What the fuck is that?! What, she’s high up, above us, at the top of a class pyramid on a shelf of money with her own face on it. We should be calling her Mrs Windsor. In fact that’s not even her real name, they changed it in the war to distract us from the inconvenient fact that they were as German as the enemy that teenage boys were being encouraged, conscripted actually, to die fighting. Her actual name is Mrs Saxe-Coburg-Gotha.

“Mrs Saxe-Coburg-Gotha”!! No wonder they fucking changed it. It’s the most German thing I’ve ever heard – she might’ve well as been called “Mrs Bratwurst-Kraut-Nazi”.'

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

If we don't want to end up like Greece we must do something . Simple fact .

I believe it's wrong to deprive the disabled , those who can't help themselves deserve all the help we can afford to offer .

The nhs is unsustainable in its current state . People live longer , Alzheimer's , cancer , etc..... Cost a fortune to medicate and people live longer with these type of conditions . Some reform is necessary to sustain it , if not now but at some stage .

Pensions inevitably come up , but if you've paid in to get it back out is totally fair . The current system is again unsustainable and reforms are coming to ease the burden .

Limiting child benefit to 2 is a good idea .

Defence is surely an are we can make cuts , but let's make them on a paper pushing level , not on numbers of gainfully employed troops .

And of course the civil service , there are so many ways we could make savings there , primarily in the areas of unnecessary office staff dealing with unnecessary EEC legislative crap .

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Her Majesty is still working at the age 89. I do not for a moment begrudge them what they have earned.

I don't normally like Mr Brand but I'm with him on this one.

“Mrs Saxe-Coburg-Gotha”!! No wonder they fucking changed it. It’s the most German thing I’ve ever heard – she might’ve well as been called “Mrs Bratwurst-Kraut-Nazi”.'"
Quite firm but on the whole very fair!

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

You say the Armed Forces have already been hammered but fail to mention that welfare has also already been hammered.

I never suggested it was fair, and cutting MPs pay is a cut not an income. Tax or interest on invstments is the only income, yes you can sell the odd national industry, and strip the assessts but that has already been done, and there isn't much left to sell.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

On the issue of defence if we can afford to have sufficient weaponry at our disposal to destroy the world a hundred times over then we have sufficient resources for top class health, welfare and education systems. Its all a matter of choice and keeping US defence arms companies in major profit.

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By *uited staffs guyMan
over a year ago

staffordshire

Can we please bin the Greece argument, it makes people sound like sheep trotting out arguments from central office

We aren't, and never will be or were going to be, Greece

Our debt levels, deficit, economy etc are totally different and always have been, it was, and remains, a ridiculous and nonsensical comparison

The reason we still have a deficit is because our economy didn't grow between 2010-2013 (from official figures), had it grown by 2% a year (low by historical comparisons), the deficit would already be virtually gone

The cuts we're having today are to pay off that lack of growth, the reason the cuts are so severe in some areas are because certain groups who vote for the governing party are being financially rewarded off the backs of those that usually don't

Good politics maybe but not financially necessary

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By *nnyMan
over a year ago

Glasgow

"On the issue of defence if we can afford to have sufficient weaponry at our disposal to destroy the world a hundred times over then we have sufficient resources for top class health, welfare and education systems. Its all a matter of choice and keeping US defence arms companies in major profit."

Nobody really believes that any savings in the Defence budget will go to Health, Welfare or Education, do they?

The Tories cut departmental budgets to fund tax cuts for their pals.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Nearly pay day. It'll be nice to see perhaps that I'll be able to keep a little bit more of it myself soon and decide where and what I want to spend it on.

I can give a bit more to charity can't I. At least I'll have the option. When was the last time any of you bought a copy of big issue to help the guy selling them on the street. People have got to standing on their own 2 feet again, we as a society have became 2 reliant on uncle state to pick up the bill.

It's no good moaning about immigration when we have a benefit system that was sat there waiting to be milked for all it's worth. The balance has got to be changed back to a position where it pays to work. It'll be hard and very painful but surely we can't go on the way it was. Even 2/3 of labour MPs think that don't they.

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By *aneandpaulCouple
over a year ago

cleveleys

Too many as lived on Benefits was in the pub trade many years see 3rd generation of families not work because its been bread into then not to work knocked the kids out the state will pay people coming here to live just for the hand outs.

Before you start kicking off think about us thats worked all our life then get told we have to work even longer all because of this lot that have never paid much in if any. The thing is we can not draw any thing were not entitled to for being an hard working citizen told to carry on to you drop

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"It's a horrible fact that we will turn into greece if nothing is done + immigrants are just coming here for free benefits, changes are needed.

If you have worked and paid your tax your for years, you get fair benefits, benefits should be paid to british citizens, not just anyone who walks into the country.

One reasons the are being cut is because of the influx of european + world immigrants, the books have to be balanced, so the same money has to be shared more thinly"

Right wing media perpetrated cobblers. Sorry. Absolute nonsense.

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By *inkyHnSCouple
over a year ago

The Council of Elrond

After last night Labour's last hope is Corbyn. They are finished in Scotland. Even the one Scottish Labour mp abstained last night yet the claim to be fighting for a fairer country lol

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By *bfoxxxMan
over a year ago

Crete or LANCASTER

"I think they will do something to fuck over pensioners and the disabled because they're costing the country the most. But they'll sneakily do it, it won't be obvious."

It's called Euthanasia

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By *ouple in LancashireCouple
over a year ago

in Lancashire

"Too many as lived on Benefits was in the pub trade many years see 3rd generation of families not work because its been bread into then not to work knocked the kids out the state will pay people coming here to live just for the hand outs.

you sound a bit confused with your rhetoric on this issue..?

if these people who helped to keep you in business were the 3rd generation of people who came here their forebears would have contributed yes..?

you seem to have a level of ignorance beyond the reality of what is happening and find it easy to only blame one small part of the issue..

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By *ouple in LancashireCouple
over a year ago

in Lancashire

caught the tail end of a piece on the beeb where i think they said the cuts to come over the next 4 years will be up to 40% for none protected departments..

that's pretty severe..

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By *aneandpaulCouple
over a year ago

cleveleys

Has that hit a nerve surrey sensual love it when people have there say a and block you

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By *aneandpaulCouple
over a year ago

cleveleys

Has that hit a nerve surrey sensual love it when people have there say a and block you

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By *ouple in LancashireCouple
over a year ago

in Lancashire

"Has that hit a nerve surrey sensual love it when people have there say a and block you"

we blocked you several weeks ago over your racist attitude on another thread..

keep up..

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Many here seem to think a labour govt. would do things differently. They would not because they could not. Our ability to continue to borrow depends on our appearance to be fiscally increasingly austere. We are an indebted nation. Our economy is not run from here. It's run by the institutions that bankroll us. Like Greece we have a massively bloated, inefficient and partially corrupt public sector. We have a benefits system that cannot be sustained. There is a debate to be had about where cuts should fall. But they have to happen. If they don't, we are Greece. An extreme left wing party who did not believe this have just has just been flattened by hideous austerity imposed by others. Take note. Save up. There's a lot more of this on the way. Basically we're bankrupt and in administration. I suggest we have more sex

)

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By *iamondjoeMan
over a year ago

Glastonbury

*dripping with sarcasm*

Excellent quality of debate on this thread.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Biggest element of Welfare ....is not Unemployment or so called scroungers......but Pensioners old age entitlement... Let's face it...that is deferred wages put by for later life....if governments have spent it..then its not us to blame"

Pensioners have done there but for society as a whole, they shouldn't be pushed to the back or short changed for there hard work. Tax the likes of Google, stop or recoup what we loose on fraud, stop giving exaggerated government contracts to friends. So many things this country can do, but will they.

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By *uited staffs guyMan
over a year ago

staffordshire

I don't think anyone's suggesting pensioners should be 'hit' or something

Not being bribed by the government and being given increases way ahead of anyone in the public or private sector would be a start and would allow the cuts to be less severe elsewhere, it's these cuts are gag having to pay for those bribes

And please stop the Greece thing it's embarrassing

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By *iamondjoeMan
over a year ago

Glastonbury

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0IVFaRTJmmY

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I don't think anyone's suggesting pensioners should be 'hit' or something

And please stop the Greece thing it's embarrassing "
re-read your post. It makes little to no sense. A comparison to what has happened in Greece is embarrassing ? Why so ? The Far left Syriza govt in Athens has just been humiliated. It's people condemned to endless austerity. If you imagine we are different, please explain why you think so.

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By *uited staffs guyMan
over a year ago

staffordshire

The Greek debt to gdp ratio is way worse than ours

Our economies are completely different, our financial sectors are completely different, our manufacturing bases are completely different

There is no comparison to be made apart from for political purposes

Our comparitor nations are the Northern European countries like France and Germany and even there are differences between us, we are nothing like Greece end of

The election of whatever political party the Greek people elects is irrelevant to that comparison

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"The Greek debt to gdp ratio is way worse than ours

Our economies are completely different, our financial sectors are completely different, our manufacturing bases are completely different

There is no comparison to be made apart from for political purposes

Our comparitor nations are the Northern European countries like France and Germany and even there are differences between us, we are nothing like Greece end of

The election of whatever political party the Greek people elects is irrelevant to that comparison

The only similarity between us is when we tried more severe austerity (eg between 2010-2013) it screwed our economic growth just as its done in Greece but that's a large scale macroeconomic policy comparison rather than a comparison of the countries"
fair play to you. A reasoned argument. I disagree with you but accept our economies are differently structured. We have a large service industry economy and a small manufacturing base. We're just shuffling the cards until we can massively rectify that imbalance. There is a way to dothis but no centre left, big state govt. seems able to do so. Yes I believe the conservatives to be centre left. We are indebted and it's getting worse. We are hamstrung by governance from afar. Having just handed 850million pounds to the bailout fund to add our borrowing. Others may stand infront of us in the queue for economic failure but we are in it. It's Maths. You can't have more than you've got without taking from elsewhere. We have taken. We are still taking. We must pay back. If not by austerity and "real " economic growth, then how? Service industry economies do not work. Big public sectors are economic vampires. Universal benefit systems are unsustainable. The Hellenes are learning this now. To avoid a similar fate down the road we have to change. Otherwise we are Greece.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"The Greek debt to gdp ratio is way worse than ours

Our economies are completely different, our financial sectors are completely different, our manufacturing bases are completely different

There is no comparison to be made apart from for political purposes

Our comparitor nations are the Northern European countries like France and Germany and even there are differences between us, we are nothing like Greece end of

The election of whatever political party the Greek people elects is irrelevant to that comparison

The only similarity between us is when we tried more severe austerity (eg between 2010-2013) it screwed our economic growth just as its done in Greece but that's a large scale macroeconomic policy comparison rather than a comparison of the countries fair play to you. A reasoned argument. I disagree with you but accept our economies are differently structured. We have a large service industry economy and a small manufacturing base. We're just shuffling the cards until we can massively rectify that imbalance. There is a way to dothis but no centre left, big state govt. seems able to do so. Yes I believe the conservatives to be centre left. We are indebted and it's getting worse. We are hamstrung by governance from afar. Having just handed 850million pounds to the bailout fund to add our borrowing. Others may stand infront of us in the queue for economic failure but we are in it. It's Maths. You can't have more than you've got without taking from elsewhere. We have taken. We are still taking. We must pay back. If not by austerity and "real " economic growth, then how? Service industry economies do not work. Big public sectors are economic vampires. Universal benefit systems are unsustainable. The Hellenes are learning this now. To avoid a similar fate down the road we have to change. Otherwise we are Greece. "
.

You seem to have no grasp on monetary policy and how money gets created!.

Id recommended reading some books before basing your conclusions on your grasp of economics

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"The Greek debt to gdp ratio is way worse than ours

Our economies are completely different, our financial sectors are completely different, our manufacturing bases are completely different

There is no comparison to be made apart from for political purposes

Our comparitor nations are the Northern European countries like France and Germany and even there are differences between us, we are nothing like Greece end of

The election of whatever political party the Greek people elects is irrelevant to that comparison

The only similarity between us is when we tried more severe austerity (eg between 2010-2013) it screwed our economic growth just as its done in Greece but that's a large scale macroeconomic policy comparison rather than a comparison of the countries fair play to you. A reasoned argument. I disagree with you but accept our economies are differently structured. We have a large service industry economy and a small manufacturing base. We're just shuffling the cards until we can massively rectify that imbalance. There is a way to dothis but no centre left, big state govt. seems able to do so. Yes I believe the conservatives to be centre left. We are indebted and it's getting worse. We are hamstrung by governance from afar. Having just handed 850million pounds to the bailout fund to add our borrowing. Others may stand infront of us in the queue for economic failure but we are in it. It's Maths. You can't have more than you've got without taking from elsewhere. We have taken. We are still taking. We must pay back. If not by austerity and "real " economic growth, then how? Service industry economies do not work. Big public sectors are economic vampires. Universal benefit systems are unsustainable. The Hellenes are learning this now. To avoid a similar fate down the road we have to change. Otherwise we are Greece. .

You seem to have no grasp on monetary policy and how money gets created!.

Id recommended reading some books before basing your conclusions on your grasp of economics"
Ofcourse you're correct. I worked in the city for 25 yrs. I have no idea at all. The creation is a supply side equation. Debt it's mechanism of control. I'm not arguing banking. I'm saying that fiscal probity is a necessity for us to be in any way free of centralised control. It may well not be possible. Then we are Greece.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"The Greek debt to gdp ratio is way worse than ours

Our economies are completely different, our financial sectors are completely different, our manufacturing bases are completely different

There is no comparison to be made apart from for political purposes

Our comparitor nations are the Northern European countries like France and Germany and even there are differences between us, we are nothing like Greece end of

The election of whatever political party the Greek people elects is irrelevant to that comparison

The only similarity between us is when we tried more severe austerity (eg between 2010-2013) it screwed our economic growth just as its done in Greece but that's a large scale macroeconomic policy comparison rather than a comparison of the countries fair play to you. A reasoned argument. I disagree with you but accept our economies are differently structured. We have a large service industry economy and a small manufacturing base. We're just shuffling the cards until we can massively rectify that imbalance. There is a way to dothis but no centre left, big state govt. seems able to do so. Yes I believe the conservatives to be centre left. We are indebted and it's getting worse. We are hamstrung by governance from afar. Having just handed 850million pounds to the bailout fund to add our borrowing. Others may stand infront of us in the queue for economic failure but we are in it. It's Maths. You can't have more than you've got without taking from elsewhere. We have taken. We are still taking. We must pay back. If not by austerity and "real " economic growth, then how? Service industry economies do not work. Big public sectors are economic vampires. Universal benefit systems are unsustainable. The Hellenes are learning this now. To avoid a similar fate down the road we have to change. Otherwise we are Greece. .

You seem to have no grasp on monetary policy and how money gets created!.

Id recommended reading some books before basing your conclusions on your grasp of economics Ofcourse you're correct. I worked in the city for 25 yrs. I have no idea at all. The creation is a supply side equation. Debt it's mechanism of control. I'm not arguing banking. I'm saying that fiscal probity is a necessity for us to be in any way free of centralised control. It may well not be possible. Then we are Greece. "
.

No the bank of England would be bankrupt, as they hold our IOUs

Greece doesn't have a national bank because it's in a monetary union and no longer uses counterfeiting... I mean money printing

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Its time to stop Universal benefits. Those with a private pension of more than £2,000 a month don't get the state pension."

Why is that; I work hard and pay in £2000 a month in AVC's to ensure I boost my private pension which I will receive at 55

I then expect to receive my state pension at 67 because I have fully paid into it all my working life with a 40% tax bracket on top of that, I have worked hard for what I will receive.

" Child Benefit for all children but a cap on payment to those earning £35k or more. A daily payment of £10 per day to the NHS for non acute care for those earning £35k or more. The benefit system was created in the post war era and its needs bringing into the 21st century. "

I think you have a problem with earnings, if we took your route then why would we work hard to achieve good rewards, and where did you get the £35k figure

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

When you say ..."we must pay back".

Exactly who are you intending to repay!

Most of our debt hasn't been borrowed from anyone, we simply created it

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

In Sweden all education is free, they should have it here to so you wont have 3k to your name when you leave uni.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"In Sweden all education is free, they should have it here to so you wont have 3k to your name when you leave uni."
.

The debts exactly the same shag, the only difference being they've transferred the debt from A to B

So the student takes out 40k of debt, spends it at the university and local pubs

.... And all the people who actually gained from this 40k of debt, lecturers, university workers, building contractors (working on the university) books, computers etc etc pub landlords, breweries... (The general public) then moan about having to pay the tax on the income they received on the debt, they then moan about people being in debt, and then moan about the country being in debt and because hard work=mine all mine

The only time they ever mention the word... Unsustainable... Is in a phrase along with the NHS.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"When you say ..."we must pay back".

Exactly who are you intending to repay!

Most of our debt hasn't been borrowed from anyone, we simply created it"
essentially you pay your creditors. In our case a monetary union called the IMF. Though this in no way explains anything. We both underwrite and take from this fiction. It is a legal fiction. Unlike you or I, both legal fictions. It stands only under its own authority. We stand under(understand) it's will. You simply can't not pay back what you take. Unless we all want to go live in the wild and start all over.

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

"In Sweden all education is free, they should have it here to so you wont have 3k to your name when you leave uni..

The debts exactly the same shag, the only difference being they've transferred the debt from A to B

So the student takes out 40k of debt, spends it at the university and local pubs

The only time they ever mention the word... Unsustainable... Is in a phrase along with the NHS.

"
That's right so the debt just switches place from place to place, yeah that's right the nhs is unsustainable. Guess as they want the monies spend on that.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"When you say ..."we must pay back".

Exactly who are you intending to repay!

Most of our debt hasn't been borrowed from anyone, we simply created it essentially you pay your creditors. In our case a monetary union called the IMF. Though this in no way explains anything. We both underwrite and take from this fiction. It is a legal fiction. Unlike you or I, both legal fictions. It stands only under its own authority. We stand under(understand) it's will. You simply can't not pay back what you take. Unless we all want to go live in the wild and start all over. "

If you say you don't understand, then why pay it back?

Legalese is just a convenient way to swindle. But with an air of respectability.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"When you say ..."we must pay back".

Exactly who are you intending to repay!

Of course you can, we've done it for 300 years!

Nearly every country in the g8 does it, the US has continuously done it for 50 years.

Debt is a double digit entry on the balance sheet! It's both a credit and a debit.

The entire world economy revolves around debt, the 2007 world banking collapse was international?. It was private debt that squeezed the banks not sovereign debt, they attempted to get rid of that private debt by turning it into sovereign debt!, that's why all the world's country's increased their sovereign debt after 2007.

All money is created with debt attached to it on creation!... If your principle was even remotely possible the entire system would collapse in 3 days.

We didn't take from the IMF, we never have done, QE is the principle of printing money in exchange for private debt, what we did is take on all the banks bad debt and we did that from borrowing from nobody at all. How do I know that, well take a look at the figures!

Total fiscal bail out, worldwide..65 trillion

World GDP 50 trillion.... Even if we'd borrowed every penny in the world, we'd be 15 trillion short!

That's why we went fiat 50 years ago, because the only possible way to continue growth is with printed money!

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"The Greek debt to gdp ratio is way worse than ours

Our economies are completely different, our financial sectors are completely different, our manufacturing bases are completely different

There is no comparison to be made apart from for political purposes

Our comparitor nations are the Northern European countries like France and Germany and even there are differences between us, we are nothing like Greece end of

The election of whatever political party the Greek people elects is irrelevant to that comparison

The only similarity between us is when we tried more severe austerity (eg between 2010-2013) it screwed our economic growth just as its done in Greece but that's a large scale macroeconomic policy comparison rather than a comparison of the countries fair play to you. A reasoned argument. I disagree with you but accept our economies are differently structured. We have a large service industry economy and a small manufacturing base. We're just shuffling the cards until we can massively rectify that imbalance. There is a way to dothis but no centre left, big state govt. seems able to do so. Yes I believe the conservatives to be centre left. We are indebted and it's getting worse. We are hamstrung by governance from afar. Having just handed 850million pounds to the bailout fund to add our borrowing. Others may stand infront of us in the queue for economic failure but we are in it. It's Maths. You can't have more than you've got without taking from elsewhere. We have taken. We are still taking. We must pay back. If not by austerity and "real " economic growth, then how? Service industry economies do not work. Big public sectors are economic vampires. Universal benefit systems are unsustainable. The Hellenes are learning this now. To avoid a similar fate down the road we have to change. Otherwise we are Greece. .

You seem to have no grasp on monetary policy and how money gets created!.

Id recommended reading some books before basing your conclusions on your grasp of economics"

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

A German banker stopped in town and went into an small old hotel to check in.

He asked to go check out the rooms first so, in good faith, he left a £100 deposit at the front desk

The hotel owner immediately ran next door to pay his grocery bill.

The grocer ran it across the street to pay one of his suppliers.

The supplier used it to pay off his co-op bill.

The co-op guy ran it back across the street to pay the local hooker

Who immediatly ran into the hotel to pay her bill for the room she uses.

At that point the German banker returned said he didn't like the room and was given back the £100 and went to the next hotel.

Result all happy! it's not debt, it's flux.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"A German banker stopped in town and went into an small old hotel to check in.

He asked to go check out the rooms first so, in good faith, he left a £100 deposit at the front desk

The hotel owner immediately ran next door to pay his grocery bill.

The grocer ran it across the street to pay one of his suppliers.

The supplier used it to pay off his co-op bill.

The co-op guy ran it back across the street to pay the local hooker

Who immediatly ran into the hotel to pay her bill for the room she uses.

At that point the German banker returned said he didn't like the room and was given back the £100 and went to the next hotel.

Result all happy! it's not debt, it's flux.

Pmsl love it

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By *iewMan
Forum Mod
over a year ago

Angus & Findhorn

".then its not us to blame"

we voted

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"The Greek debt to gdp ratio is way worse than ours

Our economies are completely different, our financial sectors are completely different, our manufacturing bases are completely different

There is no comparison to be made apart from for political purposes

Our comparitor nations are the Northern European countries like France and Germany and even there are differences between us, we are nothing like Greece end of

The election of whatever political party the Greek people elects is irrelevant to that comparison

The only similarity between us is when we tried more severe austerity (eg between 2010-2013) it screwed our economic growth just as its done in Greece but that's a large scale macroeconomic policy comparison rather than a comparison of the countries fair play to you. A reasoned argument. I disagree with you but accept our economies are differently structured. We have a large service industry economy and a small manufacturing base. We're just shuffling the cards until we can massively rectify that imbalance. There is a way to dothis but no centre left, big state govt. seems able to do so. Yes I believe the conservatives to be centre left. We are indebted and it's getting worse. We are hamstrung by governance from afar. Having just handed 850million pounds to the bailout fund to add our borrowing. Others may stand infront of us in the queue for economic failure but we are in it. It's Maths. You can't have more than you've got without taking from elsewhere. We have taken. We are still taking. We must pay back. If not by austerity and "real " economic growth, then how? Service industry economies do not work. Big public sectors are economic vampires. Universal benefit systems are unsustainable. The Hellenes are learning this now. To avoid a similar fate down the road we have to change. Otherwise we are Greece. .

You seem to have no grasp on monetary policy and how money gets created!.

Id recommended reading some books before basing your conclusions on your grasp of economics"
.

OK we've based our borrowing on borrowing from people who aren't born, you then reduce this borrowing through inflation and productivity gains, for instance average productivity gains since 1960 are around 250%, so what used to cost you a quid now only costs you 12p whereas inflation robs people of there real wealth today which they use to then pay the debt tomorrow?

It's a complicated system that helps the very top, while hinders them at the very bottom, of course it has some driving benefits too but we could go back to a system intrinsically linked to something like gold but then you could kiss goodbye to interest on savings, pensions, retirements and most businesses the entire financial industry!

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

[Removed by poster at 21/07/15 17:28:48]

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Long, long overdue and may it continue.

Should, and would, have happened back in 2010 but for Clegg and his ilk.

I won't mention the mess left behind after 13 years of that cunt Brown.

Did i say cunt?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"The Greek debt to gdp ratio is way worse than ours

Our economies are completely different, our financial sectors are completely different, our manufacturing bases are completely different

There is no comparison to be made apart from for political purposes

Our comparitor nations are the Northern European countries like France and Germany and even there are differences between us, we are nothing like Greece end of

The election of whatever political party the Greek people elects is irrelevant to that comparison

The only similarity between us is when we tried more severe austerity (eg between 2010-2013) it screwed our economic growth just as its done in Greece but that's a large scale macroeconomic policy comparison rather than a comparison of the countries fair play to you. A reasoned argument. I disagree with you but accept our economies are differently structured. We have a large service industry economy and a small manufacturing base. We're just shuffling the cards until we can massively rectify that imbalance. There is a way to dothis but no centre left, big state govt. seems able to do so. Yes I believe the conservatives to be centre left. We are indebted and it's getting worse. We are hamstrung by governance from afar. Having just handed 850million pounds to the bailout fund to add our borrowing. Others may stand infront of us in the queue for economic failure but we are in it. It's Maths. You can't have more than you've got without taking from elsewhere. We have taken. We are still taking. We must pay back. If not by austerity and "real " economic growth, then how? Service industry economies do not work. Big public sectors are economic vampires. Universal benefit systems are unsustainable. The Hellenes are learning this now. To avoid a similar fate down the road we have to change. Otherwise we are Greece. .

You seem to have no grasp on monetary policy and how money gets created!.

Id recommended reading some books before basing your conclusions on your grasp of economics.

In reality the ability to create money from nothing has always been around for thousands of years, even the ancient Romans did it, but to do it for a very long time in actuality you need practically free energy something that coal and petroleum gave us for 300 years but recently is causing problems!"
Essentially u agree with you. But it is far from the whole picture. What is the ultimate result of this farago. See that. See all ?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"The Greek debt to gdp ratio is way worse than ours

Our economies are completely different, our financial sectors are completely different, our manufacturing bases are completely different

There is no comparison to be made apart from for political purposes

Our comparitor nations are the Northern European countries like France and Germany and even there are differences between us, we are nothing like Greece end of

The election of whatever political party the Greek people elects is irrelevant to that comparison

The only similarity between us is when we tried more severe austerity (eg between 2010-2013) it screwed our economic growth just as its done in Greece but that's a large scale macroeconomic policy comparison rather than a comparison of the countries fair play to you. A reasoned argument. I disagree with you but accept our economies are differently structured. We have a large service industry economy and a small manufacturing base. We're just shuffling the cards until we can massively rectify that imbalance. There is a way to dothis but no centre left, big state govt. seems able to do so. Yes I believe the conservatives to be centre left. We are indebted and it's getting worse. We are hamstrung by governance from afar. Having just handed 850million pounds to the bailout fund to add our borrowing. Others may stand infront of us in the queue for economic failure but we are in it. It's Maths. You can't have more than you've got without taking from elsewhere. We have taken. We are still taking. We must pay back. If not by austerity and "real " economic growth, then how? Service industry economies do not work. Big public sectors are economic vampires. Universal benefit systems are unsustainable. The Hellenes are learning this now. To avoid a similar fate down the road we have to change. Otherwise we are Greece. .

You seem to have no grasp on monetary policy and how money gets created!.

Id recommended reading some books before basing your conclusions on your grasp of economics.

In reality the ability to create money from nothing has always been around for thousands of years, even the ancient Romans did it, but to do it for a very long time in actuality you need practically free energy something that coal and petroleum gave us for 300 years but recently is causing problems! Essentially u agree with you. But it is far from the whole picture. What is the ultimate result of this farago. See that. See all ?

"
.

It's an ideological stand point, not a fiscal stand point.

In reality what your buying with your tax benefits your "giving away" is..... Continuity and predictability and "markets" love continuity and predictability!

Have a look at the third world and spot the difference.... It aint wealthy people, there's always lots of wealthy people in the third world.... It's poor people and your ability to control them!

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Old age Pension is not a benifit like some try to make out How would you describe it?

The queen is entitled to draw it as is Philip Green who have a combined wealth of £4b! Go figure!!

A pension is a right following contributions over many years. It is not based on need and is not income support. We all pay into it to a greater or lesser degree over our working life.

Now if her Majesty applied for income support ........

Please read the contributions above!

Frankly linking the lottery to the benefits system is either being very ironic or a waste of a paragraph."

A pension is not a benefit. If person's financial status can prevent them having a state pension then they should not be required to contribute through NI.

You did not understand my point so i will make it simpler. If their wealth prevents a person from receiving a Government service they have paid for (i.e. pension) then which services can they receive? We are not talking about suplementary benefits paid to the poor and unemployed.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Old age Pension is not a benifit like some try to make out How would you describe it?

The queen is entitled to draw it as is Philip Green who have a combined wealth of £4b! Go figure!!

A pension is a right following contributions over many years. It is not based on need and is not income support. We all pay into it to a greater or lesser degree over our working life.

Now if her Majesty applied for income support ........

Please read the contributions above!

Frankly linking the lottery to the benefits system is either being very ironic or a waste of a paragraph.

A pension is not a benefit. If person's financial status can prevent them having a state pension then they should not be required to contribute through NI.

"
so we are agreed that benefits or welfare should be paid to the poor and unemployed? So does the state pay child benefit to say Kerry Katona or pay a state pension to Bernie Eccleston?

The initial theme of my comments was that Universal Benefits, of which the state pension and child benefit form part, needs to be re_iewed. Those who don't need it don't get it those who do! Have you any ideas or thoughts on how the impact of spending cuts can be softened for those who need help? If so I would love to hear them rather than vague comments about the queen winning the lottery............. which incidentally she does every day when she wakes up to opulent luxury!!!

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