FabSwingers.com forum: Do you believe the bible?

By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

If not would you refuse to swear on one for legal reasons?

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

It's a good story book......?

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"If not would you refuse to swear on one for legal reasons?"

I don't believe it is anything other than a largely fabricated story built around a small amount of truth. Most was written hundreds of years after the alleged events.

I would definitely refuse to take my oath by it

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *VineMan
over a year ago

The right place

In what way do you mean?

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"If not would you refuse to swear on one for legal reasons?"

You don't have to swear on the Bible or any other religious book. You can just affirm instead.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

No I dont and I have never been religious. I am a non believer

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *radleyandRavenCouple
over a year ago

Herts

...Do they still get you to swear on the bible in court?...

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *rsIdiotWoman
over a year ago

Bedworth

No I don't. I do not believe in any god or what is written in any religious book.

On the two occasions that I was called for jury service I didn't swear on the Bible, I took the option of affirming instead.

Also, as non believers, my husband and I chose not to marry in a church as we felt it would be hypocritical to do so

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Yes they exist but the stuff in the middle not really lol.

Though the bits about just being nice to people and respecting their _iews and beliefs is cool.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

"...Do they still get you to swear on the bible in court?..."

I don't know to be honest, the thought just popped into my head while i was having my morning wee.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

"No I don't. I do not believe in any god or what is written in any religious book.

On the two occasions that I was called for jury service I didn't swear on the Bible, I took the option of affirming instead.

Also, as non believers, my husband and I chose not to marry in a church as we felt it would be hypocritical to do so"

This is a good attitude!

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *oward1978Man
over a year ago

Rotherham

"If not would you refuse to swear on one for legal reasons?"

I would refuse. It's just a story book as far as I'm concerned. Why would I want to swear on that? That would be meaningless for me.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *VineMan
over a year ago

The right place

It's ironic that the bible itself would discourage anyone to swear on it, or anything else. Just let your yes be yes.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Which Bible are we talking about? The Orthodox Catholic and St James vary quite a bit!

I think man created God not the other way around so the Bible who so ever it's written by is no more fact than Harry Potter.

As for "swearing" on it I have my word I always keep it and don't give it lightly. If someone wants me to put my hand on a book to prove I'm not spinning a yarn they can F&*k off!

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"...Do they still get you to swear on the bible in court?...

I don't know to be honest, the thought just popped into my head while i was having my morning wee."

Thank goodness you weren't having a poo

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Nobody would be forced to swear on any religious book in a court

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

The bible is just a mish mosh of badly translated stories. I would swear on it for what it represents in a Court of Law. I find it hard not to tell the truth on the whole anyway, that's not always a good thing!

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"No I dont and I have never been religious. I am a non believer

Same here ^

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"If not would you refuse to swear on one for legal reasons?

I don't believe it is anything other than a largely fabricated story built around a small amount of truth. Most was written hundreds of years after the alleged events.

I would definitely refuse to take my oath by it"

Pics or it didn't happen

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Pretty much what everyone else said...I took more from the 'Cat in The Hat' books personally

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *ibbyhunterCouple
over a year ago

keighley

Asking on a swingers forum if you believe in the bible is like going on a Christian web site and asking if you believe in swinging

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Surely if you don't believe in God being required to swear on a bible is no big deal and shouldn't really bother you unless you're simply being cantankerous just for the sake of controversy ,,,,

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *abloversCouple
over a year ago

London

Not a chance.. The Bible must be true because it's written down.. the Koran must be true because it's written Down.... can't wait to meet Mr. tickle

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"If not would you refuse to swear on one for legal reasons?"

I dont believe in it no. But i wouldnt care enough to refuse...

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I don`t "believe" anything, like to see facts and truth.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I'm not sure what I believe to be honest. I've had personal things happen to me that I can't explain.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *eavenNhellCouple
over a year ago

carrbrook stalybridge

good book crap ending bit repetative think tolkien is abetter story teller

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *or Fox SakeCouple
over a year ago

Thornaby

I'm happy to announce that mere membership of this site guarantees you're going hell anyway

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *abloversCouple
over a year ago

London

Not a chance.. The Bible must be true because it's written down.. the Koran must be true because it's written Down.... can't wait to meet Mr. tickle

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

An interesting thread mainly because of the inaccuracies that have been posted.

Bear in mind that the "bible" was written in its orginal language, then translated to Greek and then Latin before English. Lots of things got lost in translation. For instance Adam is generally accepted as a mistranslation of mankind.

King David had a 1,000 wives so maybe swinging isnt so far removed.

Many of the stories are mish mash from other cultures especially Babylonian. Stories such as the plagues and flood do appear to have some basis in fact.

Finally, it is a good guide to living and deals with poverty, debt relief and many other relevant topics

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

"I'm happy to announce that mere membership of this site guarantees you're going hell anyway

Fortunately, thanks to original sin, you were going anyway.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I've gone from one side to the other! I used to teach Sunday school in a Methodist church!

I now believe that the Bible was written by man -so that intellectuals could control other (physically stronger but intellectually weaker) men and subjugate women! It helped them to build massive wealth and power for themselves - and in the case of Catholicism and some churches in the U.S. - still does!!

It's also incredibly ambiguous in most parts and - like the Quran - has been used to justify mass murder countless times!

I think there may be a greater, benign being who created us all - but if there is he/she must be pretty horrified by most of what he/she sees!

Would I swear on it?

Not now - no!! I'll swear on my own moral compass! Xx

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

No. Its a good collection of stories, but something to believe in.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *atcherofmyballsMan
over a year ago

hereford

"I'm happy to announce that mere membership of this site guarantees you're going hell anyway

That's good, coz I can't play a harp

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

And if you do what are you doing on here coveting and committing adultery??

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *rightonsteveMan
over a year ago

Brighton - even Hove!

I like the bit about the great flood. There is evidence for an antediluvian civilisation prior to the Greeks and Egytians from about 10,000BC which doesn't really fit into current acceptable thinking.

I also like the bit that says 'there were Giants in those days' or something as I believe there was more oxygen a long time ago and things were larger, hence big dinosaurs. I don't think it refers to people when mentioning Giants but extinct animals.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

I assumed it should have been called "How to survive living in the middle east with no condoms, refrigeration or effective policing system".

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I've gone from one side to the other! I used to teach Sunday school in a Methodist church!

It's also incredibly ambiguous in most parts and - like the Quran - has been used to justify mass murder countless times!

I think there may be a greater, benign being who created us all - but if there is he/she must be pretty horrified by most of what he/she sees!

Would I swear on it?

Not now - no!! I'll swear on my own moral compass! Xx

I 100% identify with this post. Including the teaching Sunday school then subsequent realisation of the true purpose of religion.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *bi HaiveMan
Forum Mod
over a year ago

Cheeseville, Somerset

It's a book.

I'd no more swear on it than I would on the Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy or 50 Shades of Shite.

And I definitely agree with the statement further up that man created God - not the other way round. People have always been prone to using imaginary things to explain what they don't understand and can't explain, and justifying their behaviour by claiming 'the divine big fella in the sky told me to do it!'. It passes the buck, removes responsibility from themselves and rationalises what would otherwise be irrational and often prejudiced beliefs.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

Don't say that in America! They'll set fire to you! (of course it won't be their fault...)

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

In my youth was in court for being a idiot. (Nothing major) but when asked to put hand on then Bible and read the statementn"I promise by almighty God..blahdeblahblah"

I changed it to "I promise by your God"

Wasn't noticed or picked up on but I was quite happy with myself

So no, don't believe and I won't interfere with other people's choices but I won't join in either, just sit quiet during the prayer\singing bits at weddings etc

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *icketysplitsWoman
over a year ago

Way over Yonder, that's where I'm bound

As you are asked to give testimony men should be grabbing their bollocks and swearing on them. Women might have to grab someone's bollocks for the swearing in.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

the penguins had one heck of a walk to Noah's ark

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *icketysplitsWoman
over a year ago

Way over Yonder, that's where I'm bound

"the penguins had one heck of a walk to Noah's ark"

Nah! Getting there was easy they just got fucked over when they were dropped off. Noah told them there would be consequences for hiding his sandals.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I believe in the bible as much as I believe in any comic book.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

hahaha which bible ?

does it matter if the bible has a page missing

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I was given a different oath or whatever it is when I went to court to accomodate that I think God and the bible was a load of bull.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

[Removed by poster at 18/07/15 10:03:33]

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

It's a book of it's time, that's evolved over time with editing and multiple versions.

I'd happily swear an oath by it, because doing that is more about what it represents than saying you believe every single word that's in it.

No one is forced to anyway, so I'm not sure why all the outrage.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

What sort of nut would put Penguins and Polar Bears together in a confined space, and, where are the Dinosaurs at the beginning of the Bible, that`s all I read it for, it was rubbish, Gods a crap author and I wont be buying anymore of his books I can tell you!

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Given that a "book of record" was published some 80 years after the death of a Nazarene who undoubtly had a following of several hundred people (think Liberal Democrat 2,000 years ago)and the publication was in Greek its fair to say that _iewing the publication now some of its contents could be "lost in translation"?

Take the virgin birth for instance Several years ago I read that the word 'virgin', in the New Testament, was mistranslated from a Hellenistic Greek word or phrase. The correct translation was said to be 'a woman of marrying age' (or something similar), not the 'haven't had sex' definition. I think the Greek word/phrase began with the letter 'b' or the equivalent. How could such an error occur; isn't Hellenistic Greek well understood? Is the word correctly translated in the Old Testament texts? I fear not and the moralists of the time simply could not have the son of their god being conceived and born in a natural way?

So in answer to the OP the work is one of fiction and could well be traced back to JK Rowlings ancestors!

During jury service recently I affirmed my intentions.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Why is it just the Bible that people are being asked if they believe in it?

Why not any other religious book?

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Why is it just the Bible that people are being asked if they believe in it?

Why not any other religious book? "
Good point. They are the work of JK Rowling!

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *bi HaiveMan
Forum Mod
over a year ago

Cheeseville, Somerset

"Why is it just the Bible that people are being asked if they believe in it?

Why not any other religious book? "

I don't put any religious text in any other category than 'fiction'.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *uby0000Woman
over a year ago

hertfordshire

I dunno who wrote it? who taught them to read and write?

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I dunno who wrote it? who taught them to read and write?"
Baby Jesus

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

It`s all about fear and control, look at the fear put into us by the media, now that the bible has lost it`s grip on society.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *uby0000Woman
over a year ago

hertfordshire

"I dunno who wrote it? who taught them to read and write?Baby Jesus"

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *P2903Couple
over a year ago

Rotherham

"Asking on a swingers forum if you believe in the bible is like going on a Christian web site and asking if you believe in swinging

Bizarrely there is actually a large subset of Christian swingers in the US.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *ath_Neil_bifunCouple
over a year ago

near cardiff

"If not would you refuse to swear on one for legal reasons?"

I don't believe one word of the bible so would refuse to swear on one for legs reason.

I'd tell the truth on principle nit because of some shite book,and made up god

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

i had to swear on the bible when i handed over my divorce papers

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *uby0000Woman
over a year ago

hertfordshire

let us pray lol

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

About as much as I believe Amazing Spiderman comic.

Yeah I guess I would refuse to swear on one.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"If not would you refuse to swear on one for legal reasons?"

I am an atheist, and yes, having been involved in legal action against my ex, I have been in this very situation.

In such cases, you may make a 'general affirmation'

In court you are not required to swear on the bible.

For me, swearing on the bible is a contradiction.

If I am swearing to tell the truth, why would I swear against a work of fiction?

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"If not would you refuse to swear on one for legal reasons?

I don't believe one word of the bible so would refuse to swear on one for legs reason.

I'd tell the truth on principle nit because of some shite book,and made up god"

Just your opinion & I hope you respect the fact that many do believe in God & the Bible.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

The bibles real...seen lots of them. The contents on the other hand are pretty well just fiction.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *VineMan
over a year ago

The right place

I really like the bible. I find it fascinating as a record of evolving human consciousness. Our society and culture today would be very different with out it.

But I wouldn't swear on it in court.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. 2 Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.

3 And God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light. 4 God saw that the light was good, and he separated the light from the darkness. 5 God called the light “day,” and the darkness he called “night.” And there was evening, and there was morning—the first day.

6 And God said, “Let there be a vault between the waters to separate water from water.” 7 So God made the vault and separated the water under the vault from the water above it. And it was so. 8 God called the vault “sky.” And there was evening, and there was morning—the second day.

9 And God said, “Let the water under the sky be gathered to one place, and let dry ground appear.” And it was so. 10 God called the dry ground “land,” and the gathered waters he called “seas.” And God saw that it was good.

11 Then God said, “Let the land produce vegetation: seed-bearing plants and trees on the land that bear fruit with seed in it, according to their various kinds.” And it was so. 12 The land produced vegetation: plants bearing seed according to their kinds and trees bearing fruit with seed in it according to their kinds. And God saw that it was good. 13 And there was evening, and there was morning—the third day.

14 And God said, “Let there be lights in the vault of the sky to separate the day from the night, and let them serve as signs to mark sacred times, and days and years, 15 and let them be lights in the vault of the sky to give light on the earth.” And it was so. 16 God made two great lights—the greater light to govern the day and the lesser light to govern the night. He also made the stars. 17 God set them in the vault of the sky to give light on the earth, 18 to govern the day and the night, and to separate light from darkness. And God saw that it was good. 19 And there was evening, and there was morning—the fourth day.

20 And God said, “Let the water teem with living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth across the vault of the sky.” 21 So God created the great creatures of the sea and every living thing with which the water teems and that moves about in it, according to their kinds, and every winged bird according to its kind. And God saw that it was good. 22 God blessed them and said, “Be fruitful and increase in number and fill the water in the seas, and let the birds increase on the earth.” 23 And there was evening, and there was morning—the fifth day.

24 And God said, “Let the land produce living creatures according to their kinds: the livestock, the creatures that move along the ground, and the wild animals, each according to its kind.” And it was so. 25 God made the wild animals according to their kinds, the livestock according to their kinds, and all the creatures that move along the ground according to their kinds. And God saw that it was good.

26 Then God said, “Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness, so that they may rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky, over the livestock and all the wild animals,[a] and over all the creatures that move along the ground.”

27 So God created mankind in his own image,

in the image of God he created them;

male and female he created them.

28 God blessed them and said to them, “Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it. Rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky and over every living creature that moves on the ground.”

29 Then God said, “I give you every seed-bearing plant on the face of the whole earth and every tree that has fruit with seed in it. They will be yours for food. 30 And to all the beasts of the earth and all the birds in the sky and all the creatures that move along the ground—everything that has the breath of life in it—I give every green plant for food.” And it was so.

31 God saw all that he had made, and it was very good. And there was evening, and there was morning—the sixth day.

But (s)he made a fuck with Pluto and binned it

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *P2903Couple
over a year ago

Rotherham

"I like the bit about the great flood. There is evidence for an antediluvian civilisation prior to the Greeks and Egytians from about 10,000BC which doesn't really fit into current acceptable thinking.

There's a very interesting story behind the translation of part of the Epic of Gilgamesh by George Smith. It's fascinating, particularly given the class issues involved.

A religious man, Smith apparently had a major crisis of faith when he discovered the deluge story which predated the creation of the bible by a significant period.

Great article on it called The Great Good Luck Of Mister Smith by Robert Strother, alternatively you can read the massively self-congratulatory piece in The Telegraph (they sponsored Smith's expedition to locate further tablets).

I'd be interested in seeing any evidence for organised civilisation ~10,000BCE. As someone who reads a fair amount of history and anthropology this extraordinary claim could do with some extraordinary evidence to back it up. I'm always open to new information in the fields in which I take an interest but this doesn't ring true, particularly the "current acceptable thinking" comment. Evidence matters.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *ire_bladeMan
over a year ago

Manchester

I don't even belive my own mother never mind fairytales

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *P2903Couple
over a year ago

Rotherham

"I really like the bible. I find it fascinating as a record of evolving human consciousness. Our society and culture today would be very different with out it.

But I wouldn't swear on it in court. "

You might like Julian Jaynes "The Origin of Consciousness in the Breakdown of the Bicameral Mind". Fascinating book, almost certainly complete bollocks but no less interesting for that being the case.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *VineMan
over a year ago

The right place

There's a very interesting story behind the translation of part of the Epic of Gilgamesh by George Smith. It's fascinating, particularly given the class issues involved.

A religious man, Smith apparently had a major crisis of faith when he discovered the deluge story which predated the creation of the bible by a significant period.

It's generally thought that most of the Old Testament was written while in captivity in Babylon. It's not surprising that a lot of Genesis draws from the epic of Gilgamesh and the Enuma Elish.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

The Bible can Feck off!

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *P2903Couple
over a year ago

Rotherham

"It's generally thought that most of the Old Testament was written while in captivity in Babylon. It's not surprising that a lot of Genesis draws from the epic of Gilgamesh and the Enuma Elish. "

It's almost certainly the case, yes. It's interesting that virtually all geographically separated ethnic groups have flood myths. There's been a lot of work over the last few decades trying to tie these myths into post-glacial sea level rises. Some of the research veers heavily into wishful thinking but it does appeal in terms of an explanation.

The end of the Pleistocene period would have seen amazing changes which would very likely have become a fundamental part of the human narrative consciousness.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Dinosaurs.

Science.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"The Bible can Feck off!

"
Are you debating the issue or just being controversial? I would suggest if you have nothing better to say then don't!!!!!

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Dinosaurs.

Science."

Yes, dinosaurs are science

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *yrdwomanWoman
over a year ago

Putting the 'cum' in Eboracum

When you do jury duty there are two oaths to take - one for Christians and one for non-Christians. I took the latter.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *ranny-CrumpetWoman
over a year ago

The Town by The Cross

Yes. Very much so. I have seen 'the' bible and held it and read it.

I don't hold much truck with the contents though.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"The Bible can Feck off!

Are you debating the issue or just being controversial? I would suggest if you have nothing better to say then don't!!!!! "

please don`t start again.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *ire_bladeMan
over a year ago

Manchester

"When you do jury duty there are two oaths to take - one for Christians and one for non-Christians. I took the latter."

You'd burn in hell going near the other

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

There's a Tim Farron joke here somewhere but I'm struggling.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *iewMan
Forum Mod
over a year ago

Angus & Findhorn

my only wish is, it started with 'once upon a time' and finished 'they lived happily ever after'....

I'm asking too much, I know.....

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *ath_Neil_bifunCouple
over a year ago

near cardiff

"If not would you refuse to swear on one for legal reasons?

I don't believe one word of the bible so would refuse to swear on one for legs reason.

I'd tell the truth on principle nit because of some shite book,and made up god"

Not sure what legs have to do with this

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

are you allowed to call it a cunt?

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"are you allowed to call it a cunt?"
No because a cunt is very useful

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *bi HaiveMan
Forum Mod
over a year ago

Cheeseville, Somerset

[Removed by poster at 18/07/15 11:57:04]

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *bi HaiveMan
Forum Mod
over a year ago

Cheeseville, Somerset

I'd ask the same question to someone of any religion.

Why should people believe your text rather than someone else's? Or even any of them?

Until someone can give me a rational, logical answer to that question my belief in any organised (or disorganised - as they all seem to be these days!) religion will be equal to my belief in the tooth fairy, Santa clause, unicorns, ghosts, goblins, ghouls and all manner of fairy folk.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *ranny-CrumpetWoman
over a year ago

The Town by The Cross

what about hobbits ?

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"what about hobbits ?"
I thought was an STI?

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *yrdwomanWoman
over a year ago

Putting the 'cum' in Eboracum

"When you do jury duty there are two oaths to take - one for Christians and one for non-Christians. I took the latter.

You'd burn in hell going near the other

I avoid churches for much the same reason

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I believe that many aspects of what is recorded in the Bible were written to be taken as parables as opposed to actual fiction. I'm not in any way religious, but there is more historical and archaeological evidence of the man they called "Jesus Christ" than Julius Caesar.

It's fact that the Bible was written hundreds of years after the death of Jesus- if he really did exist- and I've always thought that the cultural elite used religion as a means of crowd control. I believe the Bible was created as a means to give the poor hope and keep them placid instead of rioting left, right and center.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"are you allowed to call it a cunt?"

Yes, but don`t tell it to feck off,lol

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *bi HaiveMan
Forum Mod
over a year ago

Cheeseville, Somerset

"what about hobbits ?"

Don't be daft.

Of course they're real.

We live in Somerset! We see them all the time!

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"are you allowed to call it a cunt?

Yes, but don`t tell it to feck off,lol

"
Now now!

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *yrdwomanWoman
over a year ago

Putting the 'cum' in Eboracum

"I believe the Bible was created as a means to give the poor hope and keep them placid instead of rioting left, right and center. "

You should read some mediaeval history - they rioted anyway

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *P2903Couple
over a year ago

Rotherham

"I believe that many aspects of what is recorded in the Bible were written to be taken as parables as opposed to actual fiction. I'm not in any way religious, but there is more historical and archaeological evidence of the man they called "Jesus Christ" than Julius Caesar.

You can pop into the British Museum and see plenty of evidence of Julius Caeser if you like.

The historical Jesus of Nazereth (insofar as he is known to have existed - there is certainly no physical evidence, unlike the *other* JC you mention) is an interesting figure, particularly with the infighting between the various Jewish sects around the time.

My favourite version is re-casting Jesus as a member of the Zealots. Historical study of religion is great fun

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Amazing how atheists like to ram their beliefs down everyone's throats

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"It's a good story book......?"

I gave up reading it after the first few pages ,

Yes I do believe in it as it exists and I have seen it myself .

As to the content some is really relevant to today's society , and some hasn't place at all in today's society .

I always let the Jehovah's witnesses read to me , but would never join

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Amazing how atheists like to ram their beliefs down everyone's throats

"
.......you need to walk out in any major city and there are lots of God Squad folk seemingly doing the ramming!

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"It's ironic that the bible itself would discourage anyone to swear on it, or anything else. Just let your yes be yes. "

Spot on!

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *andybeachWoman
over a year ago

In the middle

The Bible can basically be condensed into one sentence "Be nice and you will do ok", so no I wouldn't swear on it

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *opinovMan
over a year ago

Point Nemo, Cumbria

"If not would you refuse to swear on one for legal reasons?

You don't have to swear on the Bible or any other religious book. You can just affirm instead."

? This.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Why is it just the Bible that people are being asked if they believe in it?

Why not any other religious book? "

Yes, nowadays they will give you any religious book you need. I work with lawyers regularly.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Amazing how atheists like to ram their beliefs down everyone's throats

.......you need to walk out in any major city and there are lots of God Squad folk seemingly doing the ramming!"

Ramming? I walk past people smiling and holding leaflets, not sure that constitutes "ramming".

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Amazing how atheists like to ram their beliefs down everyone's throats

.......you need to walk out in any major city and there are lots of God Squad folk seemingly doing the ramming!

Ramming? I walk past people smiling and holding leaflets, not sure that constitutes "ramming". "
The ramming comment was meant to be ironic!

Lost in translation it seems!

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *ensualtouch15Man
over a year ago

ashby de la zouch

I know some bits of the bible are factual just like almost all works of fiction x

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *yrdwomanWoman
over a year ago

Putting the 'cum' in Eboracum

"Amazing how atheists like to ram their beliefs down everyone's throats

I've done no ramming, beliefs or otherwise. Lets try to qualify the fact that there are some outspoken atheists, like there are some outspoken everything else.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *abloversCouple
over a year ago

London

If there was no religious beliefs the world would be a lot more peaceful

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

The Bible is so full of contradictions it's laughable. Anyone is free to follow a faith but if you take all the famous passages in a logical fashion it's just plain ridiculous.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Not necessarily...world powers would still fight over world power. Countries with the biggest use of non reusable energy will still fight over resources.

Religion isnt about war which ever religion you follow.

As for the bible it's a book written by men...it's only how we interperet the stories written in it

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *hattyman80Man
over a year ago

stockport

i dont believe the bible and I don't believe in A God of any kind. I am a follower of science. Fair play to people that can believe with no proof. But I'm not built that way

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *abloversCouple
over a year ago

London

[Removed by poster at 18/07/15 14:04:10]

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *abloversCouple
over a year ago

London

"Not necessarily...world powers would still fight over world power. Countries with the biggest use of non reusable energy will still fight over resources.

Religion isnt about war which ever religion you follow.

As for the bible it's a book written by men...it's only how we interperet the stories written in it "
That's why we said a lot less peaceful. . Not completely peaceful

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *VineMan
over a year ago

The right place

"If there was no religious beliefs the world would be a lot more peaceful "

Historically that has proven not to be true.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *abloversCouple
over a year ago

London

"If there was no religious beliefs the world would be a lot more peaceful

Historically that has proven not to be true. "

Is that right... how's the Jewish community and isis feeling about that so far?

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *osieWoman
over a year ago

Wembley

"If not would you refuse to swear on one for legal reasons?"

I think one can select between the Bible, Quran and Harry Potter's latest adventure

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *hattyman80Man
over a year ago

stockport

You might as well swear on an Argos catalogue. It holds the same relevance lol

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *osieWoman
over a year ago

Wembley

"You might as well swear on an Argos catalogue. It holds the same relevance lol "

Yes, but I must start thumbing through it and ordering stuff I don't really need

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"i had to swear on the bible when i handed over my divorce papers

No you didn't. You could have just affirmed.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *nleashedCrakenMan
over a year ago

Widnes

"It's ironic that the bible itself would discourage anyone to swear on it, or anything else. Just let your yes be yes. "

That's very true. A true Christian should never take any oaths or swear by anything except themself. There word should be there bond.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *uby0000Woman
over a year ago

hertfordshire

"The Bible can Feck off!

did you swear ON the bible? lol

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *nleashedCrakenMan
over a year ago

Widnes

"Which Bible are we talking about? The Orthodox Catholic and St James vary quite a bit!

Catholic and Orthodox bibles contain some books that were dropped by most Protestant religious. There are also some books that are in common to both but are commonly known by different names. Finally some of the chapters and verses are numbered slightly differently. However the basis text is remarkably similar. The main cause of any difference are due translation. Many English language versions were historically translates from Latin, which had been translated from Greek. The Greek itself had been translated from Aramaic and agent Hebrew. This tends to cause a drift in meaning from the original text and is the cause of slight differences in current versions of English bibles today.

I think man created God not the other way around so the Bible who so ever it's written by is no more fact than Harry Potter.

Not really. Harry Potter is meant to be a work of fiction, the bible is meant to be a historical record. They start from two very different positions. For Harry Potter you're meant to suspend your disbelief and enjoy the fantasy. The bible is written to be believed in and does actually contain historical facts, some of which can be independently verified.

As for "swearing" on it I have my word I always keep it and don't give it lightly. If someone wants me to put my hand on a book to prove I'm not spinning a yarn they can F&*k off!"

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *nleashedCrakenMan
over a year ago

Widnes

"Pretty much what everyone else said...I took more from the 'Cat in The Hat' books personally

I never read the 'Cat in The Hat' books personally so can't comment on how much I might have got out of reading them.

I think it's very important to read at least one book in a series or volume before passing judgment on them. !!

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *nleashedCrakenMan
over a year ago

Widnes

"Asking on a swingers forum if you believe in the bible is like going on a Christian web site and asking if you believe in swinging

That surly depends on what your definition of swinging and Christianity actually is.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *nleashedCrakenMan
over a year ago

Widnes

"Surely if you don't believe in God being required to swear on a bible is no big deal and shouldn't really bother you unless you're simply being cantankerous just for the sake of controversy ,,,,

That very thought often crosses my mind to but I'm trying bot to be judgmental.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *nleashedCrakenMan
over a year ago

Widnes

"I don`t "believe" anything, like to see facts and truth."

Really, you don't believe in anything?

I guess you don't use or give credit and money then because they both require belief in either you, someone else or the value of piece of paper with a few words on it.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *hattyman80Man
over a year ago

stockport

"You might as well swear on an Argos catalogue. It holds the same relevance lol

Yes, but I must start thumbing through it and ordering stuff I don't really need

You'd get more satisfaction from Argos catalogue than the bible lol

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"The Bible can Feck off!

did you swear ON the bible? lol"

Father Jack did most of the time,lol

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *nleashedCrakenMan
over a year ago

Widnes

"I've gone from one side to the other! I used to teach Sunday school in a Methodist church!

It's also incredibly ambiguous in most parts and - like the Quran - has been used to justify mass murder countless times!

I think there may be a greater, benign being who created us all - but if there is he/she must be pretty horrified by most of what he/she sees!

Would I swear on it?

Not now - no!! I'll swear on my own moral compass! Xx

I 100% identify with this post. Including the teaching Sunday school then subsequent realisation of the true purpose of religion."

I sort off agree with this to but think it suffers slightly from over disolutionism. (sorry Peach)

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *VineMan
over a year ago

The right place

"If there was no religious beliefs the world would be a lot more peaceful

Historically that has proven not to be true.

Is that right... how's the Jewish community and isis feeling about that so far? "

I am not saying that religious belief has never started wars or conflict. I was responding to your statement that without it the world would be a lot more peaceful. That is quite clearly not true. There have been many wars started for non religious reasons by non religious governments or dictators. Recent history is full of them. Removing religion has not lead to peace. The problem lies elsewhere.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *abloversCouple
over a year ago

London

It would be MORE peaceful... not completely peaceful.. can't see any argument that couldn't possibly support that

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *hattyman80Man
over a year ago

stockport

i personally believe that the world would be a lot more peaceful without religion

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"i personally believe that the world would be a lot more peaceful without religion "

Without any form of division?

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *osieWoman
over a year ago

Wembley

I think that the world would a lot more peaceful without people

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"If not would you refuse to swear on one for legal reasons?"

Are you inferring there may be something unbelievable about it?

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *VineMan
over a year ago

The right place

"It would be MORE peaceful... not completely peaceful.. can't see any argument that couldn't possibly support that"

The real issue is fundamentalism. Whether that is religious, political, economic or some other ideology. The notion that everyone must have the same belief or value system (whether religious or atheist) is what causes violence. The world will only be peaceful when we can accept that other people believe differently and we don't mind.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I think that the world would a lot more peaceful without people"

How could we know?

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *iamondjoeMan
over a year ago

Glastonbury

"If not would you refuse to swear on one for legal reasons?"

I have not sworn on the Bible in court - I think it's called an 'affirmation' or somesuch instead. It's another kind of non-religious oath.

It's the same difference, you're just being bothered to say "All that God stuff, Yr Honour, between you and me it's bollocks."

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *osieWoman
over a year ago

Wembley

"I think that the world would a lot more peaceful without people

How could we know?"

I volunteer to stay behind and evaluate

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Asking on a swingers forum if you believe in the bible is like going on a Christian web site and asking if you believe in swinging

Not necessarily, I'm a Christian and I swing, they're not mutually exclusive!

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I think that the world would a lot more peaceful without people

How could we know?

I volunteer to stay behind and evaluate

You just want the world all to yourself.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Asking on a swingers forum if you believe in the bible is like going on a Christian web site and asking if you believe in swinging

That surly depends on what your definition of swinging and Christianity actually is."

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *osieWoman
over a year ago

Wembley

"I think that the world would a lot more peaceful without people

How could we know?

I volunteer to stay behind and evaluate

You just want the world all to yourself.

Yes

...

and???

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I think that the world would a lot more peaceful without people

How could we know?

I volunteer to stay behind and evaluate

You just want the world all to yourself.

Yes

...

and???"

Can I stay, I`m no bother, honest

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *osieWoman
over a year ago

Wembley

"I think that the world would a lot more peaceful without people

How could we know?

I volunteer to stay behind and evaluate

You just want the world all to yourself.

Yes

...

and???

Can I stay, I`m no bother, honest

OK, I'll take the Northern hemisphere, you the Southern and we can meet at AbFabs once a year

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *hattyman80Man
over a year ago

stockport

"I think that the world would a lot more peaceful without people

How could we know?

I volunteer to stay behind and evaluate

You just want the world all to yourself.

Yes

...

and???"

I'll stop behind with you Josie. You'll need someone to wait on you

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *nleashedCrakenMan
over a year ago

Widnes

"i personally believe that the world would be a lot more peaceful without religion "

I thought atheists didn't believe in anything.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *osieWoman
over a year ago

Wembley

"I think that the world would a lot more peaceful without people

How could we know?

I volunteer to stay behind and evaluate

You just want the world all to yourself.

Yes

...

and???

I'll stop behind with you Josie. You'll need someone to wait on you

See Nordy; now three people; how do we divide the world? I know; lets start a war

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *nleashedCrakenMan
over a year ago

Widnes

"It would be MORE peaceful... not completely peaceful.. can't see any argument that couldn't possibly support that

Finally someone being reasonable regardless of their personal belief.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *nleashedCrakenMan
over a year ago

Widnes

"I think that the world would a lot more peaceful without people

How could we know?

I volunteer to stay behind and evaluate

Can I join you?

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I think that the world would a lot more peaceful without people

How could we know?

I volunteer to stay behind and evaluate

You just want the world all to yourself.

Yes

...

and???

Can I stay, I`m no bother, honest

OK, I'll take the Northern hemisphere, you the Southern and we can meet at AbFabs once a year

ONCE A YEAR!

What am I,made of wood? I`ll live in the Amazon and lavish you with a yearly gift of Brazil nuts, the rest of the time I`ll be tossing off.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I think that the world would a lot more peaceful without people

How could we know?

I volunteer to stay behind and evaluate

You just want the world all to yourself.

Yes

...

and???

I'll stop behind with you Josie. You'll need someone to wait on you

See Nordy; now three people; how do we divide the world? I know; lets start a war

I only need the Amazon, you can share the rest, bye

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *nleashedCrakenMan
over a year ago

Widnes

"Asking on a swingers forum if you believe in the bible is like going on a Christian web site and asking if you believe in swinging

Not necessarily, I'm a Christian and I swing, they're not mutually exclusive!"

Me to, although I think I'm a better swinger than Christian.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *osieWoman
over a year ago

Wembley

"I think that the world would a lot more peaceful without people

How could we know?

I volunteer to stay behind and evaluate

Can I join you?

I know you! I know what you'll be 'evaluating'

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *nleashedCrakenMan
over a year ago

Widnes

"I think that the world would a lot more peaceful without people

How could we know?

I volunteer to stay behind and evaluate

Can I join you?

I know you! I know what you'll be 'evaluating'

You can have everything west of Greenwich, I'll have everything east. We can meet every once in a while somewhere near London and compare our evaluations.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *nleashedCrakenMan
over a year ago

Widnes

I'd be inclined not to swear on the bible because I do believe in it. (or at least in the essence of truth I believe to be in it)

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *hattyman80Man
over a year ago

stockport

"i personally believe that the world would be a lot more peaceful without religion

I thought atheists didn't believe in anything.

We just don't believe in a higher power

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *est Wales WifeCouple
over a year ago

Near Carmarthen

It is very common for people to decline a religious oath and make an affirmation instead.

Not surprising really with a book that has talking donkeys in it.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Cant be arsed reading the entire thread (same old

but has the OP actually read it?

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *uby0000Woman
over a year ago

hertfordshire

the bible is not nice reading and shows humans in a bad light IMO

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I think that the world would a lot more peaceful without people

How could we know?

I volunteer to stay behind and evaluate

You just want the world all to yourself.

Yes

...

and???

Can I stay, I`m no bother, honest

OK, I'll take the Northern hemisphere, you the Southern and we can meet at AbFabs once a year

A touch of irony here; The last time the British were in charge of a chunk of the southern hemisphere, they made a complete hash of it by introducing mammals that they could shoot for their own blood thirsty appetite, - & now you want to put a British Greenie in charge!!!

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *P2903Couple
over a year ago

Rotherham

"Cant be arsed reading the entire thread (same old

) but has the OP actually read it? "

The irony in this is astounding

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *oachman 9CoolMan
over a year ago

derby

Well the bible is there for people, If you want it and If you don,t then you Won,t want It obviously, if any of it Happened all that time ago we won,t Know For certain without (true historical Evidence?) if thats the case, but for People for centuries and centuries the Bible has given faith and hope where There has been none before, anything Good Comeing out of that has to been Good.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *hattyman80Man
over a year ago

stockport

"the bible is not nice reading and shows humans in a bad light IMO"

I couldn't agree more

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

By their own actions, Christians have taught me that the Bible is rubbish....

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"If not would you refuse to swear on one for legal reasons?"
dont believe in the bible but for legal reasons you have to swaer on it due to english law

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Cant be arsed reading the entire thread (same old

) but has the OP actually read it?

The irony in this is astounding

lol

But not when you've read the same old comments from the same old people thousands of times before

...... but I did try!!

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *P2903Couple
over a year ago

Rotherham

"If not would you refuse to swear on one for legal reasons? dont believe in the bible but for legal reasons you have to swaer on it due to english law

No, you do not.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *opinovMan
over a year ago

Point Nemo, Cumbria

"If not would you refuse to swear on one for legal reasons? dont believe in the bible but for legal reasons you have to swaer on it due to english law

No, you do not."

You have the right to affirm.

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"the bible is not nice reading and shows humans in a bad light IMO"
you're not wrong, omg (scuse the pun)

Once the least likeliest person whom I'd ever met told me I should read the old testament, so I did 'eventually' - & it definitely wasn't what I expected!!

I'm wondering how many people on this thread have actually read it?

But no, I'd definitely not want to swear on it, - what's the point?

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By *ensualtouch15Man
over a year ago

ashby de la zouch

"i personally believe that the world would be a lot more peaceful without religion

I thought atheists didn't believe in anything.

I'm afraid you're making the same erroneous prejudgement that mpassion does

There is no doctrine of atheism

It is not a philosophy or an argument

A white man kills a dog

Biggot " white men kill dogs"

I once said I try to take a position of belief as little as possible

That has nothing to do with how other atheists may think or reason

I would absolutely love to know how a xtian chooses which bits of the bible they feel beyond doubt are a reality and which bits are bronze and iron age humans twisting stuff for their own reasons ?

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"By their own actions, Christians have taught me that the Bible is rubbish....

On the contrary, judging by Christians atrocious behavior over the last few hundred years, much of the Bible is very believable!!

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

[Removed by poster at 18/07/15 18:11:10]

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately

By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"i personally believe that the world would be a lot more peaceful without religion

I thought atheists didn't believe in anything.

I'm afraid you're making the same erroneous prejudgement that mpassion does

There is no doctrine of atheism

It is not a philosophy or an argument

A white man kills a dog

Biggot " white men kill dogs"

I once said I try to take a position of belief as little as possible

That has nothing to do with how other atheists may think or reason

I would absolutely love to know how a xtian chooses which bits of the bible they feel beyond doubt are a reality and which bits are bronze and iron age humans twisting stuff for their own reasons ?

See, sometimes talking sense can kill a thread!!

Likewise, modern history is generally a twisted version of the truth or lies, - nothing much has changed really!

(closed, thread got too big)

Reply privately