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"BBC2 now. It looks like I'm having a race week with my film and television viewing. David Olusoga is looking at the people who owned slaves, the massive compensation they received on the abolition of slavery and how that money built Britain. They were paid the equivalent of £17bn today! I'm from that slave stock and its replacement of indenture (which only ended in 1917). I enjoyed his programmes on the contribution the colonies made to the WWI effort so I'm looking forward to this. " Men tend to forget History when it is convenient... | |||
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"BBC2 now. It looks like I'm having a race week with my film and television viewing. David Olusoga is looking at the people who owned slaves, the massive compensation they received on the abolition of slavery and how that money built Britain. They were paid the equivalent of £17bn today! I'm from that slave stock and its replacement of indenture (which only ended in 1917). I enjoyed his programmes on the contribution the colonies made to the WWI effort so I'm looking forward to this. " I don't suppose it will include the tens of thousands of the descendants of French nobility who enslaved the native English population in 1066? | |||
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" Men tend to forget History when it is convenient... " The cry now isn't that they have forgotten, as such, but that we should stop bleating on about it. I do bleat on about it as I believe that mass slave trade that built the west and destroyed much of the rest continues to affect our lives now. Some of it for the good (look at the wonderful architecture in those grand cities built from the riches of the slave trade or, as this programme posits, the endowments in learning/libraries/arts). I'm interested in history and what it teaches us that we can apply to now. In Our Time is a favourite on R4. | |||
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"BBC2 now. It looks like I'm having a race week with my film and television viewing. David Olusoga is looking at the people who owned slaves, the massive compensation they received on the abolition of slavery and how that money built Britain. They were paid the equivalent of £17bn today! I'm from that slave stock and its replacement of indenture (which only ended in 1917). I enjoyed his programmes on the contribution the colonies made to the WWI effort so I'm looking forward to this. I don't suppose it will include the tens of thousands of the descendants of French nobility who enslaved the native English population in 1066?" No, it's looking at black enslavement to work the sugar plantations. | |||
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"Is this a new reality ITV programme?" That's more a fly on the wall, hidden camera documentary. | |||
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"Slavery is very often seen as a crime perpetrated mainly by Europeans and Americans. However there are two other groups that appear overlooked - the Arab slavers who plundered the East Coast of Africa and the African people of the west coast who happily supplied slaves to the slave trade. I often wonder whether the descendants of these groups feel anywhere near the guilt that people in the west feel about slavery." I have wondered about this too. When I have looked at this my conclusion has been that they didn't profit to the extent that the west did. As in all supply chains the profit margins favoured one group more than others in that supply chain. The end buyer got the continued use and breeding of new slaves from their purchase. | |||
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"Slavery is very often seen as a crime perpetrated mainly by Europeans and Americans. However there are two other groups that appear overlooked - the Arab slavers who plundered the East Coast of Africa and the African people of the west coast who happily supplied slaves to the slave trade. I often wonder whether the descendants of these groups feel anywhere near the guilt that people in the west feel about slavery." This often overlooked. African societies that supplied African slave become quite wealthy indeed. I doubt the feel the same level of guilt if any. IMO hand wringing for sin of our fathers seems to be something unique to western liberal democracies at the moment. | |||
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" Men tend to forget History when it is convenient... The cry now isn't that they have forgotten, as such, but that we should stop bleating on about it. I do bleat on about it as I believe that mass slave trade that built the west and destroyed much of the rest continues to affect our lives now. Some of it for the good (look at the wonderful architecture in those grand cities built from the riches of the slave trade or, as this programme posits, the endowments in learning/libraries/arts). I'm interested in history and what it teaches us that we can apply to now. In Our Time is a favourite on R4." You might haven't forgotten, but most people tend to do so... Are you talking about colonisation? I can see your point of view about the "good" that came out of it, but talking about the benefit of colonisation, remains to say, the poor girl has been raped but at least she cummed at some point... If it hasn't been done in a certain way of "Educate the savages" as they used to call it in France, I would admit the benefit of it, but those so called benefit was built for the colons, and has been ended over after the decolonisation phase... | |||
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"Slavery is very often seen as a crime perpetrated mainly by Europeans and Americans. However there are two other groups that appear overlooked - the Arab slavers who plundered the East Coast of Africa and the African people of the west coast who happily supplied slaves to the slave trade. I often wonder whether the descendants of these groups feel anywhere near the guilt that people in the west feel about slavery. I have wondered about this too. When I have looked at this my conclusion has been that they didn't profit to the extent that the west did. As in all supply chains the profit margins favoured one group more than others in that supply chain. The end buyer got the continued use and breeding of new slaves from their purchase. " I'm from the Black Country we prefer not to mention chains, according to someone with a OBE we have not apologized enough and included chains in our regions flag. Great programme very informative & insightful  | |||
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" Men tend to forget History when it is convenient... The cry now isn't that they have forgotten, as such, but that we should stop bleating on about it. I do bleat on about it as I believe that mass slave trade that built the west and destroyed much of the rest continues to affect our lives now. Some of it for the good (look at the wonderful architecture in those grand cities built from the riches of the slave trade or, as this programme posits, the endowments in learning/libraries/arts). I'm interested in history and what it teaches us that we can apply to now. In Our Time is a favourite on R4. You might haven't forgotten, but most people tend to do so... Are you talking about colonisation? I can see your point of view about the "good" that came out of it, but talking about the benefit of colonisation, remains to say, the poor girl has been raped but at least she cummed at some point... If it hasn't been done in a certain way of "Educate the savages" as they used to call it in France, I would admit the benefit of it, but those so called benefit was built for the colons, and has been ended over after the decolonisation phase... " Colonisation has created the modern issues the country (and others) are dealing with now. For me, it didn't end long enough ago for the washing of hands that happens about this. When I see the comments that those countries should sort themselves out and stop expecting support from the UK it misses completely the mess that was created and left behind. | |||
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"In the early 18th century, Kings of Dahomey (known today as Benin) became big players in the slave trade, waging a bitter war on their neighbours, resulting in the capture of 10,000, including another important slave trader, the King of Whydah. King Tegbesu made £250,000 a year selling people into slavery in 1750. King Gezo said in the 1840's he would do anything the British wanted him to do apart from giving up slave trade:" People of all hues were reluctant to lose that golden goose. Some continue the trade now in African and pan-Asian countries. It's as abhorrent now as it should have been then. | |||
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" Men tend to forget History when it is convenient... The cry now isn't that they have forgotten, as such, but that we should stop bleating on about it. I do bleat on about it as I believe that mass slave trade that built the west and destroyed much of the rest continues to affect our lives now. Some of it for the good (look at the wonderful architecture in those grand cities built from the riches of the slave trade or, as this programme posits, the endowments in learning/libraries/arts). I'm interested in history and what it teaches us that we can apply to now. In Our Time is a favourite on R4. You might haven't forgotten, but most people tend to do so... Are you talking about colonisation? I can see your point of view about the "good" that came out of it, but talking about the benefit of colonisation, remains to say, the poor girl has been raped but at least she cummed at some point... If it hasn't been done in a certain way of "Educate the savages" as they used to call it in France, I would admit the benefit of it, but those so called benefit was built for the colons, and has been ended over after the decolonisation phase... Colonisation has created the modern issues the country (and others) are dealing with now. For me, it didn't end long enough ago for the washing of hands that happens about this. When I see the comments that those countries should sort themselves out and stop expecting support from the UK it misses completely the mess that was created and left behind. " I couldn't agree more with you, complaining about immigration but forgetting about colonisation... how handy is that ? If you really want to fix a problem, deal with the cause of it not the consequences... Love your views on it  | |||
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"I've learned more about Britain's involvement in the slave trade in the last hour than I did during 5yrs at secondary school. God knows what's being taught in school these days but we must never forget our country's history, even the ugly parts." The depth of detail has been fascinating. | |||
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" Men tend to forget History when it is convenient... The cry now isn't that they have forgotten, as such, but that we should stop bleating on about it. I do bleat on about it as I believe that mass slave trade that built the west and destroyed much of the rest continues to affect our lives now. Some of it for the good (look at the wonderful architecture in those grand cities built from the riches of the slave trade or, as this programme posits, the endowments in learning/libraries/arts). I'm interested in history and what it teaches us that we can apply to now. In Our Time is a favourite on R4. You might haven't forgotten, but most people tend to do so... Are you talking about colonisation? I can see your point of view about the "good" that came out of it, but talking about the benefit of colonisation, remains to say, the poor girl has been raped but at least she cummed at some point... If it hasn't been done in a certain way of "Educate the savages" as they used to call it in France, I would admit the benefit of it, but those so called benefit was built for the colons, and has been ended over after the decolonisation phase... Colonisation has created the modern issues the country (and others) are dealing with now. For me, it didn't end long enough ago for the washing of hands that happens about this. When I see the comments that those countries should sort themselves out and stop expecting support from the UK it misses completely the mess that was created and left behind. " This sort of comment always bemuses me. What percentage, if any, of people, from stock of liberated ex slaves EVER go back to their homeland and work at trying to sort the "mess left behind" out? Very very few i would wager. Would they indeed ever be here but for the slave trade. I'm also pretty sure that much, much of the West, certainly the UK was built on more than the slave trade. Far more than the agenda of the Op would have us believe. "Here, King John would you sign this Magna Carta pretty darn quick 'cos i have a few slaves i need to bullwhip before i can set sail for the Windies." King John : "Wtf you on?" | |||
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"I've learned more about Britain's involvement in the slave trade in the last hour than I did during 5yrs at secondary school. God knows what's being taught in school these days but we must never forget our country's history, even the ugly parts. The depth of detail has been fascinating." If you didn't see his three part programme on the black and Asian contributions to the Great War try and find them. I have been impressed with the level of research and the story-telling so necessary to make it good television. It's in the planner for the second part next week. | |||
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"I've learned more about Britain's involvement in the slave trade in the last hour than I did during 5yrs at secondary school. God knows what's being taught in school these days but we must never forget our country's history, even the ugly parts. The depth of detail has been fascinating. If you didn't see his three part programme on the black and Asian contributions to the Great War try and find them. I have been impressed with the level of research and the story-telling so necessary to make it good television. It's in the planner for the second part next week. " What really touches me in documentaries is when personal stories are told, it's a much more visceral connection to the past. I wish we had those type of stories from the ancient world about daily life. | |||
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" Men tend to forget History when it is convenient... The cry now isn't that they have forgotten, as such, but that we should stop bleating on about it. I do bleat on about it as I believe that mass slave trade that built the west and destroyed much of the rest continues to affect our lives now. Some of it for the good (look at the wonderful architecture in those grand cities built from the riches of the slave trade or, as this programme posits, the endowments in learning/libraries/arts). I'm interested in history and what it teaches us that we can apply to now. In Our Time is a favourite on R4. You might haven't forgotten, but most people tend to do so... Are you talking about colonisation? I can see your point of view about the "good" that came out of it, but talking about the benefit of colonisation, remains to say, the poor girl has been raped but at least she cummed at some point... If it hasn't been done in a certain way of "Educate the savages" as they used to call it in France, I would admit the benefit of it, but those so called benefit was built for the colons, and has been ended over after the decolonisation phase... Colonisation has created the modern issues the country (and others) are dealing with now. For me, it didn't end long enough ago for the washing of hands that happens about this. When I see the comments that those countries should sort themselves out and stop expecting support from the UK it misses completely the mess that was created and left behind. " Yeah just look at the mess America is in because of its colonial past.... | |||
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"Slavery is very often seen as a crime perpetrated mainly by Europeans and Americans. However there are two other groups that appear overlooked - the Arab slavers who plundered the East Coast of Africa and the African people of the west coast who happily supplied slaves to the slave trade. I often wonder whether the descendants of these groups feel anywhere near the guilt that people in the west feel about slavery. This often overlooked. African societies that supplied African slave become quite wealthy indeed. I doubt the feel the same level of guilt if any. IMO hand wringing for sin of our fathers seems to be something unique to western liberal democracies at the moment." The wealth and prestige that the African slavers enjoyed is still in some cases enjoyed by their descendants today. Maybe not the big money Europe made but the families are still very wealthy by African standards. | |||
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"BBC2 now. It looks like I'm having a race week with my film and television viewing. David Olusoga is looking at the people who owned slaves, the massive compensation they received on the abolition of slavery and how that money built Britain. They were paid the equivalent of £17bn today! I'm from that slave stock and its replacement of indenture (which only ended in 1917). I enjoyed his programmes on the contribution the colonies made to the WWI effort so I'm looking forward to this. " So by that logic can we ban the Union Jack the same way as they've banned the southern cross in the states? Gets my vote. | |||
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" Men tend to forget History when it is convenient... The cry now isn't that they have forgotten, as such, but that we should stop bleating on about it. I do bleat on about it as I believe that mass slave trade that built the west and destroyed much of the rest continues to affect our lives now. Some of it for the good (look at the wonderful architecture in those grand cities built from the riches of the slave trade or, as this programme posits, the endowments in learning/libraries/arts). I'm interested in history and what it teaches us that we can apply to now. In Our Time is a favourite on R4. You might haven't forgotten, but most people tend to do so... Are you talking about colonisation? I can see your point of view about the "good" that came out of it, but talking about the benefit of colonisation, remains to say, the poor girl has been raped but at least she cummed at some point... If it hasn't been done in a certain way of "Educate the savages" as they used to call it in France, I would admit the benefit of it, but those so called benefit was built for the colons, and has been ended over after the decolonisation phase... Colonisation has created the modern issues the country (and others) are dealing with now. For me, it didn't end long enough ago for the washing of hands that happens about this. When I see the comments that those countries should sort themselves out and stop expecting support from the UK it misses completely the mess that was created and left behind. This sort of comment always bemuses me. What percentage, if any, of people, from stock of liberated ex slaves EVER go back to their homeland and work at trying to sort the "mess left behind" out? Very very few i would wager. Would they indeed ever be here but for the slave trade. I'm also pretty sure that much, much of the West, certainly the UK was built on more than the slave trade. Far more than the agenda of the Op would have us believe. "Here, King John would you sign this Magna Carta pretty darn quick 'cos i have a few slaves i need to bullwhip before i can set sail for the Windies." King John : "Wtf you on?" " I can give you name who has been assassinated when trying to solve their Homeland... Let's start with Patrice Lumumba... when People try to do so, the establishment wouldn't allow it... I don't think the Op has an agenda either | |||
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". I couldn't agree more with you, complaining about immigration but forgetting about colonisation... how handy is that ? " So if you have a criminal in your family tree you can never complain about being a victim of crime? Pretty we left behind the "sins of the father" attitude a long time ago. | |||
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" Men tend to forget History when it is convenient... The cry now isn't that they have forgotten, as such, but that we should stop bleating on about it. I do bleat on about it as I believe that mass slave trade that built the west and destroyed much of the rest continues to affect our lives now. Some of it for the good (look at the wonderful architecture in those grand cities built from the riches of the slave trade or, as this programme posits, the endowments in learning/libraries/arts). I'm interested in history and what it teaches us that we can apply to now. In Our Time is a favourite on R4. You might haven't forgotten, but most people tend to do so... Are you talking about colonisation? I can see your point of view about the "good" that came out of it, but talking about the benefit of colonisation, remains to say, the poor girl has been raped but at least she cummed at some point... If it hasn't been done in a certain way of "Educate the savages" as they used to call it in France, I would admit the benefit of it, but those so called benefit was built for the colons, and has been ended over after the decolonisation phase... Colonisation has created the modern issues the country (and others) are dealing with now. For me, it didn't end long enough ago for the washing of hands that happens about this. When I see the comments that those countries should sort themselves out and stop expecting support from the UK it misses completely the mess that was created and left behind. This sort of comment always bemuses me. What percentage, if any, of people, from stock of liberated ex slaves EVER go back to their homeland and work at trying to sort the "mess left behind" out? Very very few i would wager. Would they indeed ever be here but for the slave trade. I'm also pretty sure that much, much of the West, certainly the UK was built on more than the slave trade. Far more than the agenda of the Op would have us believe. "Here, King John would you sign this Magna Carta pretty darn quick 'cos i have a few slaves i need to bullwhip before i can set sail for the Windies." King John : "Wtf you on?" " Get your timeline straight and I might be more interested in the comments. Dismissing two centuries of slavery with would "they" (me) even be here without the slave trade? What does that even mean? Would you be here if your mother hadn't met your father. You're right, I have never been back to help sort out the mess left behind in my colony - it's a hot place and I don't do hot. I do know others who have been back, do go back and have helped to improve things. In the case of my colonial country the whole first election process was subverted by the British, reneging on what had been agreed, in order to appease America. That mess lasted for some 30 years. That mess meant that some people couldn't go back to try and help. The programme was quite illuminating and just how much was created to support that slave trade and how much it has built this country. Of course it's not the only thing but colonisation is what made this country "Great" Britain - having an Empire - and that had more people and more land this just these islands all providing to the fewer people in the motherland. It is not insignificant. A compensation payoff of £17bn in today's money should be enough to tell you that. | |||
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" Men tend to forget History when it is convenient... The cry now isn't that they have forgotten, as such, but that we should stop bleating on about it. I do bleat on about it as I believe that mass slave trade that built the west and destroyed much of the rest continues to affect our lives now. Some of it for the good (look at the wonderful architecture in those grand cities built from the riches of the slave trade or, as this programme posits, the endowments in learning/libraries/arts). I'm interested in history and what it teaches us that we can apply to now. In Our Time is a favourite on R4. You might haven't forgotten, but most people tend to do so... Are you talking about colonisation? I can see your point of view about the "good" that came out of it, but talking about the benefit of colonisation, remains to say, the poor girl has been raped but at least she cummed at some point... If it hasn't been done in a certain way of "Educate the savages" as they used to call it in France, I would admit the benefit of it, but those so called benefit was built for the colons, and has been ended over after the decolonisation phase... Colonisation has created the modern issues the country (and others) are dealing with now. For me, it didn't end long enough ago for the washing of hands that happens about this. When I see the comments that those countries should sort themselves out and stop expecting support from the UK it misses completely the mess that was created and left behind. This sort of comment always bemuses me. What percentage, if any, of people, from stock of liberated ex slaves EVER go back to their homeland and work at trying to sort the "mess left behind" out? Very very few i would wager. Would they indeed ever be here but for the slave trade. I'm also pretty sure that much, much of the West, certainly the UK was built on more than the slave trade. Far more than the agenda of the Op would have us believe. "Here, King John would you sign this Magna Carta pretty darn quick 'cos i have a few slaves i need to bullwhip before i can set sail for the Windies." King John : "Wtf you on?" I can give you name who has been assassinated when trying to solve their Homeland... Let's start with Patrice Lumumba... when People try to do so, the establishment wouldn't allow it... I don't think the Op has an agenda either" But he wasn't the descendent of a slave in the west who went back he was born there. | |||
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"Did they mention the Irish slaves? How they were sold in lots as big as 30,000? How they used to forcebreed white Irish women slaves with african slaves because the children were more expensive and made more money than an african slave or white slave." They didn't but that's a story that needs to be told too. The story of the enslavement of Indians isn't talked about either as it was called indenture but more died in those ships than in the African slave trade. I hope that those stories are presented too. | |||
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". I couldn't agree more with you, complaining about immigration but forgetting about colonisation... how handy is that ? So if you have a criminal in your family tree you can never complain about being a victim of crime? Pretty we left behind the "sins of the father" attitude a long time ago. " if your complain doesn't involve some hate towards those immigrants due to their ethnical background, of course you can, however, you can't complaint about it if your support the government that creates that sort of situation possible... | |||
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"Did they mention the Irish slaves? How they were sold in lots as big as 30,000? How they used to forcebreed white Irish women slaves with african slaves because the children were more expensive and made more money than an african slave or white slave. They didn't but that's a story that needs to be told too. The story of the enslavement of Indians isn't talked about either as it was called indenture but more died in those ships than in the African slave trade. I hope that those stories are presented too. " There was also the Barbary slave trade. | |||
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"BBC2 now. It looks like I'm having a race week with my film and television viewing. David Olusoga is looking at the people who owned slaves, the massive compensation they received on the abolition of slavery and how that money built Britain. They were paid the equivalent of £17bn today! I'm from that slave stock and its replacement of indenture (which only ended in 1917). I enjoyed his programmes on the contribution the colonies made to the WWI effort so I'm looking forward to this. So by that logic can we ban the Union Jack the same way as they've banned the southern cross in the states? Gets my vote. " It'd be interesting. In many parts of the world there is no love lost on the "butcher's apron" | |||
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" Men tend to forget History when it is convenient... The cry now isn't that they have forgotten, as such, but that we should stop bleating on about it. I do bleat on about it as I believe that mass slave trade that built the west and destroyed much of the rest continues to affect our lives now. Some of it for the good (look at the wonderful architecture in those grand cities built from the riches of the slave trade or, as this programme posits, the endowments in learning/libraries/arts). I'm interested in history and what it teaches us that we can apply to now. In Our Time is a favourite on R4. You might haven't forgotten, but most people tend to do so... Are you talking about colonisation? I can see your point of view about the "good" that came out of it, but talking about the benefit of colonisation, remains to say, the poor girl has been raped but at least she cummed at some point... If it hasn't been done in a certain way of "Educate the savages" as they used to call it in France, I would admit the benefit of it, but those so called benefit was built for the colons, and has been ended over after the decolonisation phase... Colonisation has created the modern issues the country (and others) are dealing with now. For me, it didn't end long enough ago for the washing of hands that happens about this. When I see the comments that those countries should sort themselves out and stop expecting support from the UK it misses completely the mess that was created and left behind. This sort of comment always bemuses me. What percentage, if any, of people, from stock of liberated ex slaves EVER go back to their homeland and work at trying to sort the "mess left behind" out? Very very few i would wager. Would they indeed ever be here but for the slave trade. I'm also pretty sure that much, much of the West, certainly the UK was built on more than the slave trade. Far more than the agenda of the Op would have us believe. "Here, King John would you sign this Magna Carta pretty darn quick 'cos i have a few slaves i need to bullwhip before i can set sail for the Windies." King John : "Wtf you on?" I can give you name who has been assassinated when trying to solve their Homeland... Let's start with Patrice Lumumba... when People try to do so, the establishment wouldn't allow it... I don't think the Op has an agenda either But he wasn't the descendent of a slave in the west who went back he was born there." No he was just living under the colons rules in his own country... my bad... | |||
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". I couldn't agree more with you, complaining about immigration but forgetting about colonisation... how handy is that ? So if you have a criminal in your family tree you can never complain about being a victim of crime? Pretty we left behind the "sins of the father" attitude a long time ago. " I'm more practical than that. I don't want to seek vengeance on anyone for what their parents did. What I do seek is that we follow the history to understand where we are now and deal with the here and now. Not dismiss the past as having nothing to do with it. To follow through on your example, there are instances where the family, friends and associates are punished for the sin of the father. That's not right but it's right to question what they knew, when they knew it and what their role was in hiding the sin or being complicit in it. | |||
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". I'm more practical than that. I don't want to seek vengeance on anyone for what their parents did. What I do seek is that we follow the history to understand where we are now and deal with the here and now. Not dismiss the past as having nothing to do with it. To follow through on your example, there are instances where the family, friends and associates are punished for the sin of the father. That's not right but it's right to question what they knew, when they knew it and what their role was in hiding the sin or being complicit in it. " Many people are ready, willing and able to forget the 'sins' of their fathers but happily trumpet their 'victories'. | |||
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" I can give you name who has been assassinated when trying to solve their Homeland... Let's start with Patrice Lumumba... when People try to do so, the establishment wouldn't allow it... I don't think the Op has an agenda either" Well, there's your problem, one person can't change a country just as Emmeline Pankhurst alone didn't win votes for women. | |||
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" I can give you name who has been assassinated when trying to solve their Homeland... Let's start with Patrice Lumumba... when People try to do so, the establishment wouldn't allow it... I don't think the Op has an agenda either Well, there's your problem, one person can't change a country just as Emmeline Pankhurst alone didn't win votes for women." I think one person can make things move though, many example through History... Ghandi, Malcolm X, Luther King... | |||
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" I can give you name who has been assassinated when trying to solve their Homeland... Let's start with Patrice Lumumba... when People try to do so, the establishment wouldn't allow it... I don't think the Op has an agenda either Well, there's your problem, one person can't change a country just as Emmeline Pankhurst alone didn't win votes for women. I think one person can make things move though, many example through History... Ghandi, Malcolm X, Luther King... " Ooo,someone who admires Neitzche... | |||
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". I'm more practical than that. I don't want to seek vengeance on anyone for what their parents did. What I do seek is that we follow the history to understand where we are now and deal with the here and now. Not dismiss the past as having nothing to do with it. To follow through on your example, there are instances where the family, friends and associates are punished for the sin of the father. That's not right but it's right to question what they knew, when they knew it and what their role was in hiding the sin or being complicit in it. Many people are ready, willing and able to forget the 'sins' of their fathers but happily trumpet their 'victories'." Boy oh boy ain't that the truth!! (See BBC 1-4's weekly war listings (×52) for more details!!  | |||
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"Slavery is very often seen as a crime perpetrated mainly by Europeans and Americans. However there are two other groups that appear overlooked - the Arab slavers who plundered the East Coast of Africa and the African people of the west coast who happily supplied slaves to the slave trade. I often wonder whether the descendants of these groups feel anywhere near the guilt that people in the west feel about slavery." Same thing happening now with the people smugglers....trading on the misery of their own countrymen. The west couldn't have bought slaves from the West African coast if the West Africans themselves were not raiding Central Africa to harvest the slaves in the first place. The guilt spreads to all! | |||
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"If I may share a personal view, we should never forget slavery it should be held up as an example of how in our ignorance we got it sooo wrong, it shouldn't however be an opportunity to make whit people feel guilty, we are all equal in society now, mistakes were made, it was a tragic time, and lives were lost, both slaves and the men that fought in the American civil war, there are no real positives to take from slavery, but it's end is a cause for celebration, so let's not look to the past for someone to blame, let's look to the past for what not to do Let's love each other "I don't disagree. I feel knowing the history is important and we should learn from that history. The programme is very well balanced. | |||
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"Fascinating documentary - very interesting. British history never ceases to surprise me!" It makes me wonder if slavery had continued would the investment in infrastructure have happened that lead to the building of modern Britain? His last point on racial theories, the Empire, the re-writing of personal histories is all part of our legacy now. | |||
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"Interesting that they are likening the payouts to slave owners to the bank bail-out. It was too big a business to be allowed to fail. " Surely it was just the usual governmental policy of compensating a group of people affected by a change in legislation, as happens to this day, otherwise the affected party could simply sue the government. I do wonder sometimes about the politics of such programs, which always seem to be happy to promulgate the (racist?) evil white man vs innocent black man narrative. What would have happened to men captured in tribal african wars, if they had had no value to the slave traders? Would they not have been killed? Would their future have been so much better? The truth is capitalism has always allowed the wealthy to profit on the backs of the weak and uneducated, regardless of colour. The troubles in Ireland, are they truely about religion, or simply rich incoming landlords subjugating the indigenous poor? The same for the scottish landowners of the lowlands and the highlanders, the Americans and the Indians, the Babylonians with the Jews, the Romans with the Celts. My grandmother, in 1932, died in a Glasgow workhouse, in conditions not much better than slavery. Even today, tenant farmers on the landed estates pay so much of their income in rents that they don't even make the minimum wage, workers still live in tied accommodation and can be made homeless.and destitute if they don't obey their masters. I haven't seen this weeks show yet, but I hope the presenter will make much of how cities like Bristol, with much of the educational infrastructure paid for from profits of people who used slaves, now uses that infrastructure to educate black and white, rich and poor alike, helping improve the future lives of everyone. I hope this will be the presenters conclusion. Last time I lived in Bristol instead the call was for me, by virtue simply of the colour of my skin, to pay reparations to another man, simply for the colour of his skin. (Sorry Lickety) Mr ddc | |||
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"Interesting that they are likening the payouts to slave owners to the bank bail-out. It was too big a business to be allowed to fail. Surely it was just the usual governmental policy of compensating a group of people affected by a change in legislation, as happens to this day, otherwise the affected party could simply sue the government. I do wonder sometimes about the politics of such programs, which always seem to be happy to promulgate the (racist?) evil white man vs innocent black man narrative. What would have happened to men captured in tribal african wars, if they had had no value to the slave traders? Would they not have been killed? Would their future have been so much better? The truth is capitalism has always allowed the wealthy to profit on the backs of the weak and uneducated, regardless of colour. The troubles in Ireland, are they truely about religion, or simply rich incoming landlords subjugating the indigenous poor? The same for the scottish landowners of the lowlands and the highlanders, the Americans and the Indians, the Babylonians with the Jews, the Romans with the Celts. My grandmother, in 1932, died in a Glasgow workhouse, in conditions not much better than slavery. Even today, tenant farmers on the landed estates pay so much of their income in rents that they don't even make the minimum wage, workers still live in tied accommodation and can be made homeless.and destitute if they don't obey their masters. I haven't seen this weeks show yet, but I hope the presenter will make much of how cities like Bristol, with much of the educational infrastructure paid for from profits of people who used slaves, now uses that infrastructure to educate black and white, rich and poor alike, helping improve the future lives of everyone. I hope this will be the presenters conclusion. Last time I lived in Bristol instead the call was for me, by virtue simply of the colour of my skin, to pay reparations to another man, simply for the colour of his skin. (Sorry Lickety) Mr ddc" No need to be sorry, that's your view and your experience. Mine is somewhat different, of course. Of course we still have slavery and, for me, that's part of why it's important to understand history. The fact that we let slavery continue should shame us all. | |||
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"And I forgot about the Chinese cockle-pickers, the Romanian vegetable pickers and the eastern European sex-trade. Slavery is not yet over, we still have some distance to go."  | |||
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" Mr ddc No need to be sorry, that's your view and your experience. Mine is somewhat different, of course. Of course we still have slavery and, for me, that's part of why it's important to understand history. The fact that we let slavery continue should shame us all. " I know, but I still feel I should. I just feel if we are going to fight injustice, we should concentrate on present day injustices, not dwell on injustices caused to one ancestor by someone wholly unrelated to either of us. And that we should be fighting injustice wherever it may be found, and regardless of skin colour. Should not colour-blindness work both ways? | |||
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"Slavery is very often seen as a crime perpetrated mainly by Europeans and Americans. However there are two other groups that appear overlooked - the Arab slavers who plundered the East Coast of Africa and the African people of the west coast who happily supplied slaves to the slave trade. I often wonder whether the descendants of these groups feel anywhere near the guilt that people in the west feel about slavery." Along with the Portuguese slave traders as well,Even Amongst our own in the late Eighteenth/early nineteenth centurys An early form of social service saw The building of workhouse,s in order to care for the growing population of Paupers and orphans left behind by the All too rapid expansion of the Industrial revolution. After a system of events children as young as 8 were Sent to work in cotton mills in derbyshire,s peak district their lives Were full of drudgery and despair and In one particular dale they worked they recieved the name.. the orphanage Slaves very harrowing times Indeed. | |||
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" Mr ddc No need to be sorry, that's your view and your experience. Mine is somewhat different, of course. Of course we still have slavery and, for me, that's part of why it's important to understand history. The fact that we let slavery continue should shame us all. I know, but I still feel I should. I just feel if we are going to fight injustice, we should concentrate on present day injustices, not dwell on injustices caused to one ancestor by someone wholly unrelated to either of us. And that we should be fighting injustice wherever it may be found, and regardless of skin colour. Should not colour-blindness work both ways?" In an ideal world it would, however, we still have racial injustice here, much of it predicated on what has happened in the past. When the power is still held by one set of people based on colour then it's very difficult to say that white people are experiencing racism. On the basis of your post all history programmes would have to go too. Or is only the safe history that doesn't involve race and enslavement ok? There isn't that much of that in reality. The programme on the graveyards found on the crossrail route in the City found the bones of black people, showing that we've been here since 17th century. Should the interesting fact that some of the people were black be ignored? | |||
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"Slavery is very often seen as a crime perpetrated mainly by Europeans and Americans. However there are two other groups that appear overlooked - the Arab slavers who plundered the East Coast of Africa and the African people of the west coast who happily supplied slaves to the slave trade. I often wonder whether the descendants of these groups feel anywhere near the guilt that people in the west feel about slavery.Along with the Portuguese slave traders as well,Even Amongst our own in the late Eighteenth/early nineteenth centurys An early form of social service saw The building of workhouse,s in order to care for the growing population of Paupers and orphans left behind by the All too rapid expansion of the Industrial revolution. After a system of events children as young as 8 were Sent to work in cotton mills in derbyshire,s peak district their lives Were full of drudgery and despair and In one particular dale they worked they recieved the name.. the orphanage Slaves very harrowing times Indeed." When I was a child I met what I thought was an old woman then, I now realise she wasn't much older than I am now. She remembered being in a workhouse and how scared her family were when they were closed down. She told us that when they were given a new council house they thought angels had visited them. | |||
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"Slavery still goes on today in many parts of the world unfortunately. The Burmese government for example uses forced labour in place such as Karen state (eastern Burma, on the boarder with Thailand) to carry equipment through the jungle, build fortifications, build walls around villages to turn them into prisons etc, as well as the forced confiscation of food, building materials, livestock etc." Similar mindset to the japanese in the second world war when they occupied those area,s and probabily at times apart from beheading, baynateing, and a few tortures just as Brutal. | |||
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"Slavery is very often seen as a crime perpetrated mainly by Europeans and Americans. However there are two other groups that appear overlooked - the Arab slavers who plundered the East Coast of Africa and the African people of the west coast who happily supplied slaves to the slave trade. I often wonder whether the descendants of these groups feel anywhere near the guilt that people in the west feel about slavery.Along with the Portuguese slave traders as well,Even Amongst our own in the late Eighteenth/early nineteenth centurys An early form of social service saw The building of workhouse,s in order to care for the growing population of Paupers and orphans left behind by the All too rapid expansion of the Industrial revolution. After a system of events children as young as 8 were Sent to work in cotton mills in derbyshire,s peak district their lives Were full of drudgery and despair and In one particular dale they worked they recieved the name.. the orphanage Slaves very harrowing times Indeed. When I was a child I met what I thought was an old woman then, I now realise she wasn't much older than I am now. She remembered being in a workhouse and how scared her family were when they were closed down. She told us that when they were given a new council house they thought angels had visited them." | |||
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" In an ideal world it would, however, we still have racial injustice here, much of it predicated on what has happened in the past. When the power is still held by one set of people based on colour then it's very difficult to say that white people are experiencing racism. On the basis of your post all history programmes would have to go too. Or is only the safe history that doesn't involve race and enslavement ok? There isn't that much of that in reality. The programme on the graveyards found on the crossrail route in the City found the bones of black people, showing that we've been here since 17th century. Should the interesting fact that some of the people were black be ignored? " Oh no, all history is fascinating, and can teach us so much. My point was only that we should be careful about applying our modern-day values to people from a bygone age. Especially if done for purely political ends. Racism is a separate issue, I could tell you about my experiences in North Wales, when I was sent to replace a previous engineer hounded out solely for being English (I won them round by pointing out my ginger hair made me more celtish than they were!) Or perhaps the experiences of my mixed-race niece, unfortunate enough to be mixed with a race where the intolerance is becoming increasingly permissible. And I don't agree that the country is ruled by an elite seeking to ensure that only white people have a say. There are MPs of every creed and colour, and no legislation seeks to deliberately disadvantage one group of people simply by the colour of their skin. But I feel a bit of a fraud commenting when I have still to watch part 2, so I'm off to do so now. | |||
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" In an ideal world it would, however, we still have racial injustice here, much of it predicated on what has happened in the past. When the power is still held by one set of people based on colour then it's very difficult to say that white people are experiencing racism. On the basis of your post all history programmes would have to go too. Or is only the safe history that doesn't involve race and enslavement ok? There isn't that much of that in reality. The programme on the graveyards found on the crossrail route in the City found the bones of black people, showing that we've been here since 17th century. Should the interesting fact that some of the people were black be ignored? Oh no, all history is fascinating, and can teach us so much. My point was only that we should be careful about applying our modern-day values to people from a bygone age. Especially if done for purely political ends. Racism is a separate issue, I could tell you about my experiences in North Wales, when I was sent to replace a previous engineer hounded out solely for being English (I won them round by pointing out my ginger hair made me more celtish than they were!) Or perhaps the experiences of my mixed-race niece, unfortunate enough to be mixed with a race where the intolerance is becoming increasingly permissible. And I don't agree that the country is ruled by an elite seeking to ensure that only white people have a say. There are MPs of every creed and colour, and no legislation seeks to deliberately disadvantage one group of people simply by the colour of their skin. But I feel a bit of a fraud commenting when I have still to watch part 2, so I'm off to do so now." If you didn't see it I would recommend the series he made on the black and Asian contribution to WWI. | |||
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" But I feel a bit of a fraud commenting when I have still to watch part 2, so I'm off to do so now. If you didn't see it I would recommend the series he made on the black and Asian contribution to WWI. " Very interesting, I couldn't work out if he was agreeing with the satirist who was concerned that they were forgetting about the poor in the uk, and sad that the compensation was ploughed back into the horrors of the industrial revolution. It was a shame it didn't go further: I doubt the 'end of slavery' was anywhere near the end of the story for slaves involved, and I bet they too saw a minimal difference to their everyday lives, with any 'wages' taken back via rent and food charges. And I didn't mean to be insensitive earlier, I just don't feel a personal sense of guilt for something I, nor any of my ancestors did. (I was the first person ever in our family to own almost anything!) I haven't seen his other programme, but I read a fair bit about ww1 for the centenary, so knew about the Indian and Gurkha brigades, though not the West Indian one. | |||
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"I don't suppose it will include the tens of thousands of the descendants of French nobility who enslaved the native English population in 1066?" and of course need be reminded, We don’t really need to go through all of the gory details, do we? We know all too well the atrocities of the African slave trade. But, are we talking about African slavery? King James II and Charles I also led a continued effort to enslave the Irish. Britain’s famed Oliver Cromwell furthered this practice of dehumanizing one’s next door neighbor. The Irish slave trade began when James II sold 30,000 Irish prisoners as slaves to the New World. His Proclamation of 1625 required Irish political prisoners be sent overseas and sold to English settlers in the West Indies. By the mid 1600s, the Irish were the main slaves sold to Antigua and Montserrat. At that time, 70% of the total population of Montserrat were Irish slaves. Ireland quickly became the biggest source of human livestock for English merchants. The majority of the early slaves to the New World were actually white. From 1641 to 1652, over 500,000 Irish were killed by the English and another 300,000 were sold as slaves. Ireland’s population fell from about 1,500,000 to 600,000 in one single decade. Families were ripped apart as the British did not allow Irish dads to take their wives and children with them across the Atlantic. This led to a helpless population of homeless women and children. Britain’s solution was to auction them off as well. During the 1650s, over 100,000 Irish children between the ages of 10 and 14 were taken from their parents and sold as slaves in the West Indies, Virginia and New England. In this decade, 52,000 Irish (mostly women and children) were sold to Barbados and Virginia. Another 30,000 Irish men and women were also transported and sold to the highest bidder. In 1656, Cromwell ordered that 2000 Irish children be taken to Jamaica and sold as slaves to English settlers. Many people today will avoid calling the Irish slaves what they truly were: Slaves. They’ll come up with terms like “Indentured Servants” to describe what occurred to the Irish. However, in most cases from the 17th and 18th centuries, Irish slaves were nothing more than human cattle. As an example, the African slave trade was just beginning during this same period. It is well recorded that African slaves, not tainted with the stain of the hated Catholic theology and more expensive to purchase, were often treated far better than their Irish counterparts. | |||
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"... I'm very interested in whether we have learned anything from our past. Would we be better off obliterating history and starting afresh with modern minds and ways of thinking and behaving ? I have a suspicion that humans haven't changed that much. Given a change of circumstances, given a place where an us or them situation arises. Would similar events happen all over again? " It is already.  | |||
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"... I'm very interested in whether we have learned anything from our past. Would we be better off obliterating history and starting afresh with modern minds and ways of thinking and behaving ? I have a suspicion that humans haven't changed that much. Given a change of circumstances, given a place where an us or them situation arises. Would similar events happen all over again? It is already. "this.. post WW2 and the institutions set up to try and ensure it wouldn't happen again sadly it has and will again.. | |||
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