FabSwingers.com forum: major employment problem...advice please

By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

Ok I think I know the answer to this but thought I'd ask here...as a start

GF works in care (non verbal clients)... One has been violent towards her and others on many occasions (slaps bites chokes etc)..

client has now been moved out of home and into private accom because of this.

GF is being TOLD she must care for client in the home and this includes sleeping over alone (something she has never done)... Told it's in contract etc...no other staff want to do it...she has offered to assist temporarily (to be nice) but has now has major second thoughts and is scared to do it...

Now she has no training in handling violent clients and IMO the employer has a 'duty of care' to protect the employees from violence irrespective of contract etc.... I can't believe it's legal to 'force' her and I suspect they are opening themselves up to a whole heap of legal trouble (potentially)

She's so stressed she's not been sleeping and is considering resigning...pretty much forced out of a job she loves...

I've told her to seek advice via Citizens Advice etc and also to put concerns in writing to HR (we are drafting a letter now)

She's not in a union btw....

Obviously a précis but what do you think?...any pointers would be appreciated.

I can understand some jobs dealing with violent people (police, prison staff etc) but I bet they have training for this....

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By *yrdwomanWoman
over a year ago

Putting the 'cum' in Eboracum

I was going to say CAB and HR but you're doing that already. See what they say. Employees do have rights, but certain jobs have less than others unfortunately.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

You're right, the employer does have a duty of care and if they haven't even done something as simple as a risk assessment then they're failing massively. They should not put her in that position

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By *ittle_brat_evie!!Woman
over a year ago

evesham

I have little understanding of this but I would have thought that from a safety perspective for both client and worker it would be unsafe for them to work alone.

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

Thanks guys...

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By *iewMan
Forum Mod
over a year ago

Angus & Findhorn

Is there a grievance procedure.

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

I suggested that they 'double up' and that only male carers are used?

No go... No one wants to do it!

I also said 'it's above your pay grade' and is Managements issue at the end of the day...

However.... She doesn't listen to me lol

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Does your GF have a current job description?

Check if this particular responsibility is in the job description

Also whether they have a 'Lone Working' policy that might help

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I have worked with clients like that and we were never allowed to be alone with them , we might have worked one to one but there was always other staff around. Even doing sleep ins there was always 2 of us.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Yeah risk assessments are needed both for the staff member but also for the person been cared for been alone with 1 staff memeber puts both at major risk of harm...

i would speak to the local authority/cqc who ever is in charge of the package of care as the company should ensure that the people supporting are appropriatly trained xx

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

"Is there a grievance procedure."

Dunno dude....

They 'seemed' ok to me (as a company) but who knows..

at my work place they would be treading very carefully for risk of being taken to court etc....

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

Brilliant advice

Thanks guys

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By *vie RuthWoman
over a year ago

Just where the rainbow end.s . .

Look up Accas number They can advise and negotiate for you They are a free service

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Ok I think I know the answer to this but thought I'd ask here...as a start

GF works in care (non verbal clients)... One has been violent towards her and others on many occasions (slaps bites chokes etc)..

client has now been moved out of home and into private accom because of this.

She's so stressed she's not been sleeping and is considering resigning...pretty much forced out of a job she loves...

I've told her to seek advice via Citizens Advice etc and also to put concerns in writing to HR (we are drafting a letter now)

She's not in a union btw....

Obviously a précis but what do you think?...any pointers would be appreciated.

I can understand some jobs dealing with violent people (police, prison staff etc) but I bet they have training for this...."

There has to be by law more than one member of staff on duty

get onto unison they have a section just for nursing and care staff

by law if the patients have mental health issues there should also be a qualified medical professional at all times not just care staff

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

When I worked in the mental health sector we were taught control and restraint. Lifting and handling but that was through the NHS I don't know about the private sector and we had panic alarms as well

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

can I also ask what you mean by none verbal clients

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By *bi HaiveMan
Forum Mod
over a year ago

Cheeseville, Somerset

Quick question - well two really!

If nobody else wants to do it then what are they doing to avoid the job?

And why have they chosen to single out your partner?

Sounds dodgy to me - if the rest of the staff have managed to come up with acceptable reasons not to be put in that situation i'd ask them.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Ok I think I know the answer to this but thought I'd ask here...as a start

GF works in care (non verbal clients)... One has been violent towards her and others on many occasions (slaps bites chokes etc)..

client has now been moved out of home and into private accom because of this.

She's so stressed she's not been sleeping and is considering resigning...pretty much forced out of a job she loves...

I've told her to seek advice via Citizens Advice etc and also to put concerns in writing to HR (we are drafting a letter now)

She's not in a union btw....

Obviously a précis but what do you think?...any pointers would be appreciated.

I can understand some jobs dealing with violent people (police, prison staff etc) but I bet they have training for this....

There has to be by law more than one member of staff on duty

get onto unison they have a section just for nursing and care staff

by law if the patients have mental health issues there should also be a qualified medical professional at all times not just care staff "

Was going to say about a qualified member of staff on duty at all times somewhere on site

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By *exylegs15Couple
over a year ago

Uttoxeter

You should not be put in such a vulnerable position.... I worked in care for 20 years and IMHO there are not enough measures in place to protect carers...don't do it!! Xx

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

Thanks again x

Don't think the patients have mental issues..just non verbal

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Get a lawyer to send a letter to them, outlining thats she's not trained to look after such a client. They'll certainly take that seriously. Probably cost a bit though.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Thanks again x

Don't think the patients have mental issues..just non verbal"

I would say if they are attacking the staff there is some level of mental health issue there

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

im in carework, and only once experienced this....after an incident with another worker, they only went there in pairs, im sure the company were ok about it just because they could bill the council double for it..have there been incident reports logged at any point? if the council are in anyway involved in funding,it may be worth trying to speak to someone there..

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Get a lawyer to send a letter to them, outlining thats she's not trained to look after such a client. They'll certainly take that seriously. Probably cost a bit though."

Just join unison it's a independent union for people who's work place has none, they have a section just for carers is a small fee but it comes straight out your wages and shows on your wage slip that alone makes a lot of employees think twice when they see that on your wage slip

if they see she's joined a union they may think twice

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Organisation have to do risk assessments and have a look at the lone worker policy to see how the two work together.

If there is a history of violence then it would be expected that the risk is increased, especially in the client's home.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Check her contract of employment thoroughly. If she doesn't have a copy of it, then get her to ask her employer to provide her with a copy of the contract that she signed.

Very often an employer will use the line 'its in your contract' as a threat on the assumption that their employee will simply cave in and do it and won't actually check their contract.

Then again, your partner should know if it's in her contract or not as you should always read any document you are going to sign VERY carefully.

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By *illwill69uMan
over a year ago

moston

"Now she has no training in handling violent clients and IMO the employer has a 'duty of care' to protect the employees from violence irrespective of contract etc.... I can't believe it's legal to 'force' her and I suspect they are opening themselves up to a whole heap of legal trouble (potentially)"

Hi, sorry to be the bearer of bad news but where employers 'duty of care' is concerned there is a big loophole that I think your GF may fall foul of. That is, an employers 'duty of care' only extends to what is commercially viable. Her manager or the HR manager may be held accountable if something happens to your GF if she can show that they have been willfully negligent, however this will not be of use to her in such an event. (Think, the manager who has just been convicted for causing the death of 2 of his workers 'apple diving'!) Sad fact is your GF knows she is at risk so will be held at least partially responsible for any work related injuries she suffers.

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By *uke olovingmanMan
over a year ago

Gravesend

That's so wrong .. I wouldn't do it .. She should have another member of staff with her ...

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

Thanks again for all the replies xxxx

Just been on FaceTime trying to cheer her up....

Looks like a new job is looming tbh

Anyway, thanks again and we will follow up on the advice

Xxx

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

there needs to be a risk assessment done for the client and the carer. There will be a lone worker policy, or should be and there's no way they can force any carer to put themselves at risk in the work place, whether public sector or private. I'm a carer and have worked in the offices of a care company. Get her to check her handbook and her contract

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By *icked weaselCouple
over a year ago

Near Edinburgh..

If she does have to work with such a torrid person !!!

Make sure she records his exploits with a Go-Pro or something.. and fuck asking the employer if your allowed to wear the thing !!!

Her Safety comes first.. Personally I would be looking for another care Position...

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By *om and JennieCouple
over a year ago

Chams or Socials

"Get a lawyer to send a letter to them, outlining thats she's not trained to look after such a client. They'll certainly take that seriously. Probably cost a bit though.

if they see she's joined a union they may think twice "

Unison won't really help until you've been a member for 13 weeks

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By *avebi48Man
over a year ago

Lordswood

"Check her contract of employment thoroughly. If she doesn't have a copy of it, then get her to ask her employer to provide her with a copy of the contract that she signed.

Very often an employer will use the line 'its in your contract' as a threat on the assumption that their employee will simply cave in and do it and won't actually check their contract.

Then again, your partner should know if it's in her contract or not as you should always read any document you are going to sign VERY carefully.

this but also get a current copy of the T&C's in case they've changed anything since she started. She should have been notified of any change but it's not always obvious what the implications will be until something like this comes up. Note that the employer can make changes giving notice, you don't necessarily have to have signed up to them as they become effective unless you have objected (which usually ends up in leaving the post).

Once you have these, seek legal advice, CAB, ACAS or union. They won't be able to advise properly without the contract details.

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By *avebi48Man
over a year ago

Lordswood

"If she does have to work with such a torrid person !!!

Make sure she records his exploits with a Go-Pro or something.. and fuck asking the employer if your allowed to wear the thing !!!

Her Safety comes first.. Personally I would be looking for another care Position...

nice idea, unfortunately the client's privacy could be considered to be breached and if s/he does have mental impairments would not be fit to sign any consent. Different matter if the home has cctv provided, though access to the recordings could the next hurdle...

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Given the role, the company will have to have a Safeguarding policy in place, this is a legal requirement when working with children and vulberable adults. If there is a history of violence with the patient then the company are required to carry out necessary risk assessments and take reasonable measures to ensure their employees safety as well as that of the patient. Unless this has been carried out then they cannot force your GF or any other staff member to do anything as they are potentially putting them both into a dangerous situation. Contact labour relations and they'll tell you/her exactly where you stand and what they can and can't do.

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By *erbyDalesCplCouple
over a year ago

Derbyshire

You are right to write a letter, informally from her. It needs to be dual-purpose: 1) To put across her concerns in a balanced and constructive manner, in order to make her feel safe to continue with her work. 2) to demonstrate that she has acted in a reasonable and proportional manner in voicing her concerns, should she end up claiming constructive dismissal.

She needs to read her existing contract in detail - this is the most important document. She needs to document all instances where this patient has been violent towards her. She needs to ask if a risk assessment has been carried out, and to be given a copy of it. You both need to do research into how usual one-man working is in these circumstances. It doesn't sound good practice to me, but what do I know? She needs to request additional training. There are so many more considerations, how mobile is the patient, would she have a lockable room, would she have an emergency panic alarm - and what is the response time. It is possible the firm has a contract that they can't avoid either without proven instances of violence.(even then, someone will have to care for them). Under the circumstances perhaps she could offer to cover so long as there are two of them? It depends what is considered 'normal' in this field.

Either way, do not refuse to do the job, just set reasonable conditions to enable her to fulfill her role effectively and safely.

Much will also depend on the size of her firm, and how professional they are, and what the timescales are.

At no time must she mention the words 'constructive dismissal', but I wouldn't have thought "I do not feel safe to work alone with this patient" would be an unreasonable statement under the circumstances you describe.

She also needs to read up on the grievance procedure, and make sure she follows it to the letter.

With luck, they will be so keen to sort something, they will happily work with her.

Good luck, and feel free to pm. I won my case for constructive dismissal, representing myself, but my issue was the new parental leave regs.

Mr ddc

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By *icketysplitsWoman
over a year ago

Way over Yonder, that's where I'm bound

"Thanks again for all the replies xxxx

Just been on FaceTime trying to cheer her up....

Looks like a new job is looming tbh

Anyway, thanks again and we will follow up on the advice

Xxx"

If she does leave then please make sure she sets out exactly why she has felt the need to resign to protect her own safety and wellbeing. Keep a copy. Leaving a job could mean she won't be eligible for any benefits should she need to make a claim.

The new fees for making a claim at a tribunal will probably make it difficult to decide to go for constructive dismissal or breach of contract (I think it's the lower £160 fee but there is also a hearing fee if it goes that far). ACAS can give advice on this.

Also refer the case to the CQC for investigation so that no other member of staff is faced with this again through that company.

In the meantime she should keep a record for herself as well as on the client report forms of every time she is put in danger and every incident reported in the appropriate company incident record. Check the workplace manual for how to do this.

We're likely to see more of this as the cost of care is squeezed even further.

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By *ophieslutTV/TS
over a year ago

Central

Contact Acas and Unison for advice and support. Both already mentioned and some great advice here. Hugs to you both.

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By *illwill69uMan
over a year ago

moston

Don't know if this will help or not, but you may want to contact:

Linder Myers Solicitors.

They are the 'go to' firm for the police federation when they have employment law problems, and I believe they are the firm that got the government to settle the gulf war syndrome claims...

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

Just wanted to say a big THANKS to all of you for the advice.

We tried to contact CAB but of course it was late last night so I thought I'd contact FAB and received great advice

.... Better probably lol

Quite a few things I hadn't thought of (well, a lot tbh)

I think I was looking for confirmation that what I was saying was in the right ball park and it seems like it was...

She's back at work on Thursday and dreading it. She's almost certainly going to leave....not least because se feels 'making waves' will make her position untenable.....I have no experience in this as I've always been lucky to work for good companies..

I'm just going to support her but make sure she doesn't do anything rash that may affect the future....

One other thing that has come to light is that if she leaves she will have to pay back training course fees of approx 1K.....because it's less than a year after the course end....

At the end of the day, I'll pay that if needed but a little bit of negotiation may be in order methinks

Anyway, thanks again guys xxxxxxx

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Ok I think I know the answer to this but thought I'd ask here...as a start

GF works in care (non verbal clients)... One has been violent towards her and others on many occasions (slaps bites chokes etc)..

client has now been moved out of home and into private accom because of this.

She's so stressed she's not been sleeping and is considering resigning...pretty much forced out of a job she loves...

I've told her to seek advice via Citizens Advice etc and also to put concerns in writing to HR (we are drafting a letter now)

She's not in a union btw....

Obviously a précis but what do you think?...any pointers would be appreciated.

I can understand some jobs dealing with violent people (police, prison staff etc) but I bet they have training for this...."
.

Check her contract.... If it's a care company she probably hasn't got one. If no other staff will do it why is she being made to do it but they're not... Do they not have a contract? Or does their contract say no over nights with violent patients,?

Go cab.... Doubt a care company will have hr.. Good luck and keep us updated with progress

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Her employers dont have a leg to stand on.with a history of violence this client can never be looked after one on one. Its quite possibly illegal. Its certainly appalling practise. A contract cannot require you to do something that puts yours or anyone elses health and safety in danger. whistle blow. If you dont you may later read in the news that the client had strangled to death a staff member. I wouldnt want that on my concsience.

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By *avebi48Man
over a year ago

Lordswood

"Ok I think I know the answer to this but thought I'd ask here...as a start

GF works in care (non verbal clients)... One has been violent towards her and others on many occasions (slaps bites chokes etc)..

client has now been moved out of home and into private accom because of this.

She's so stressed she's not been sleeping and is considering resigning...pretty much forced out of a job she loves...

I've told her to seek advice via Citizens Advice etc and also to put concerns in writing to HR (we are drafting a letter now)

She's not in a union btw....

Obviously a précis but what do you think?...any pointers would be appreciated.

I can understand some jobs dealing with violent people (police, prison staff etc) but I bet they have training for this.....

Go cab.... Doubt a care company will have hr.. Good luck and keep us updated with progress"

if there's not much detail in her contract, check also if there is a staff handbook as part of that may define contractual obligations of both parties.

The training cost is a bummer, but not unusual for employers to have such a clause.

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By *radleyandRavenCouple
over a year ago

Herts

It was my understanding that there had to be two carers if doing a sleep in, but things could've changed.

I would've thought she could refuse to do it as she has not been properly trained? Check with the C.A.B. x

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Check the Acas website as well.

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By *bi HaiveMan
Forum Mod
over a year ago

Cheeseville, Somerset

OP - did you manage to find out how all your partners colleagues have managed to avoid this situation?

You stated nobody else was willing to do it.

Are they not being treated the same?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Just wanted to say a big THANKS to all of you for the advice.

We tried to contact CAB but of course it was late last night so I thought I'd contact FAB and received great advice

.... Better probably lol

Quite a few things I hadn't thought of (well, a lot tbh)

I think I was looking for confirmation that what I was saying was in the right ball park and it seems like it was...

I'm just going to support her but make sure she doesn't do anything rash that may affect the future....

One other thing that has come to light is that if she leaves she will have to pay back training course fees of approx 1K.....because it's less than a year after the course end....

At the end of the day, I'll pay that if needed but a little bit of negotiation may be in order methinks

Anyway, thanks again guys xxxxxxx"

Sounds a horrible place for her to be ?

Why not pull the stress card and go on the sick even until the year is up ?

Good luck ! X

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

A friend of mine worked in a similar situation and said they were never allowed to be alone with the people they cared for?

Sounds very, very wrong to me.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

The company has a duty of care to keep its employees safe. Reasonable precautions would be to provide control & restraint training, though lone working regulations also apply. I would say that if they forced the issue and your partner quit her job rather than put herself in danger she would have a very good case to claim constructive dismissal. I'm no HR expert but I am an experienced and professional manager and I put the safety of my employees at the top of my priority list.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

[Removed by poster at 07/07/15 14:07:49]

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Ok I think I know the answer to this but thought I'd ask here...as a start

GF works in care (non verbal clients)... One has been violent towards her and others on many occasions (slaps bites chokes etc)..

client has now been moved out of home and into private accom because of this.

She's so stressed she's not been sleeping and is considering resigning...pretty much forced out of a job she loves...

I've told her to seek advice via Citizens Advice etc and also to put concerns in writing to HR (we are drafting a letter now)

She's not in a union btw....

Obviously a précis but what do you think?...any pointers would be appreciated.

I can understand some jobs dealing with violent people (police, prison staff etc) but I bet they have training for this...."

They cannot force her to do it even though it's in her contract.

For a contract to be enforced by an employer they have to provide full training to any relevant staff and complete a full risk assessment.

As they have failed to do so your partner is well within her rights to refuse on health and safety grounds.

Hope this helps

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