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"we are in for £12.5bn I believe " .. No wonder they need to sell rbs sharpish  | |||
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"we are in for £12.5bn I believe .. No wonder they need to sell rbs sharpish "after todays mess - shares will be a give away lol | |||
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"we are in for £12.5bn I believe " kind of.... our part is part of the IMF loan the greeks are now playing chicken with..... | |||
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"greece are playing a dangerous game of chicken.....i think they think the russians will end up bailing them out if the default on the IMF loan....." Russia have already announced they are looking for naval bases in the Med, so this is probably going to be a source if not a negotiating tool in any deal... either with Europe or Greece/Russia? | |||
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"I think a Greek exit is more unthinkable to the Germans than the Greeks. There playing chicken to see who swerves first." I agree, too much risk of other countries following Greece's lead if they're given special treatment. Maybe if the EU enforced their rules on Germany's trade surplus it would encourage German companies to invest elsewhere, like maybe Greece.  Might even sound like a proper union, working together for the common good!
"The ecb is in to the tune of about 150 billion?... And I reckon they'll wipe the debt.. And then the trouble starts" Nah, possible 10% haircut, but I still think Tspiras will have to blink first - he knows leaving the EU would force him from office. He just wants to be hailed as a hero for getting the best possible deal. Mr ddc | |||
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"I think a Greek exit is more unthinkable to the Germans than the Greeks. There playing chicken to see who swerves first. I agree, too much risk of other countries following Greece's lead if they're given special treatment. Maybe if the EU enforced their rules on Germany's trade surplus it would encourage German companies to invest elsewhere, like maybe Greece. Might even sound like a proper union, working together for the common good!
The ecb is in to the tune of about 150 billion?... And I reckon they'll wipe the debt..
And then the trouble starts
Nah, possible 10% haircut, but I still think Tspiras will have to blink first - he knows leaving the EU would force him from office. He just wants to be hailed as a hero for getting the best possible deal.
Mr ddc". You got the idea out for me!. It's such a shame that a once Nobel idea such as the EU has become a tool for big business 
Of course in my naivety as a young man I'd hoped for genuine solidarity, in reality it was always about monetary union and the peoples losses, removing the ability to coerce your own currency leaves Greece fucked.. They can't afford the debt no matter how much fucking austerity is imposed, the harsh debt repayments stop any growth and they can't do what could be done in the past with inflation and devaluation.
So there left with
What the powers that be always wanted, "structural reform".... A nice way of saying you working class have to do more while us 0.01% move/avoid/evade/manipulate whatever we wish to escape the rules we've put upon you!
Give me a union and I mean a real union like the uk or give me freedom to control my own destiny. | |||
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"The ecb is in to the tune of about 150 billion?... And I reckon they'll wipe the debt.. And then the trouble starts Nah, possible 10% haircut, but I still think Tspiras will have to blink first - he knows leaving the EU would force him from office. He just wants to be hailed as a hero for getting the best possible deal. Mr ddc. You got the idea out for me!. It's such a shame that a once Nobel idea such as the EU has become a tool for big business
Of course in my naivety as a young man I'd hoped for genuine solidarity, in reality it was always about monetary union and the peoples losses, removing the ability to coerce your own currency leaves Greece fucked.. They can't afford the debt no matter how much fucking austerity is imposed, the harsh debt repayments stop any growth and they can't do what could be done in the past with inflation and devaluation.
So there left with
What the powers that be always wanted, "structural reform".... A nice way of saying you working class have to do more while us 0.01% move/avoid/evade/manipulate whatever we wish to escape the rules we've put upon you!
Give me a union and I mean a real union like the uk or give me freedom to control my own destiny."Class consciousness should be thought about on a global level now. | |||
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"Welcome to the fourth Reich! What Germany couldn't achieve with bullets there managing to do really nicely with having you by the bollocks!. If the Greeks have any sense of what's coming they should take the big loan then fuck off with the ill gotten gains and start back up the drachma" if they were starting from scratch i'd agree... one problem, they went to the imf asking for the money, they knew the conditions that were attached so half way thru.. they basically want to take the money and run..... ireland did what they had to do... they came out the other side... cyprus did what they had to do... they came out the other side... iceland did what they had to do... they came out the other side... so why should greece think they are any different? | |||
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"Welcome to the fourth Reich! What Germany couldn't achieve with bullets there managing to do really nicely with having you by the bollocks!. " 
I've been saying exactly the same for years. | |||
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" If Grexit occurs, there will be short-term chaos - but Argentina in '01 or Iceland " I read something recently that Iceland defaulted on $85bn, which meant added pressures on everybody else. The UK Govt bailed out Brits with Icelandic saving accounts (it didnt have to no, but it did) and we still haven't recouped all of the money yet. Something like £3.5bn of £4.6bn has been recouped. Icelandic unemployment was at 12% and is now at 5% or something but youth unemployment is at 9.5%. I have just looked it up and they still have a debt of 86% of GDP as of 2014 figures. To say they are doing well is all well and good, but they have 'done well' at the expense of everyone else. They have got themselves back on track when, and showed the alternative model, but $85bn is a lot of money not to be in circulation. | |||
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"Welcome to the fourth Reich! What Germany couldn't achieve with bullets there managing to do really nicely with having you by the bollocks!. If the Greeks have any sense of what's coming they should take the big loan then fuck off with the ill gotten gains and start back up the drachma if they were starting from scratch i'd agree... one problem, they went to the imf asking for the money, they knew the conditions that were attached so half way thru.. they basically want to take the money and run..... ireland did what they had to do... they came out the other side... cyprus did what they had to do... they came out the other side... iceland did what they had to do... they came out the other side... so why should greece think they are any different?" . Three countries that all had fundamental banking problems! I should add three very very very small countries, they all lived happily with bank profits and they all should have failed with bank losses!. Fundamentally the Greek economy was the problem not the Greek banks, the other three were actually the reverse to an extent. Do you remember how many drachma you could get to a pound? Was it about 500-600? The Greeks had the ability to manipulate there currency in emergency's, they can't do that now because there tied to Europe, the very people that gained the most from having Greece in they're "currency union" are now imposing misery and this misery is not being imposed on the very richest Greeks that swindled the most it's being imposed on the majority who swindled hardly any tax's. The Greeks won't "get away" with it as you put it, there'll suffer the same fate regardless, the difference being there'll be in charge of there own misery. This Reaganomic madness really is just about pushing reform where you couldn't push reform! | |||
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" If Grexit occurs, there will be short-term chaos - but Argentina in '01 or Iceland I read something recently that Iceland defaulted on $85bn, which meant added pressures on everybody else. The UK Govt bailed out Brits with Icelandic saving accounts (it didnt have to no, but it did) and we still haven't recouped all of the money yet. Something like £3.5bn of £4.6bn has been recouped. Icelandic unemployment was at 12% and is now at 5% or something but youth unemployment is at 9.5%. I have just looked it up and they still have a debt of 86% of GDP as of 2014 figures. To say they are doing well is all well and good, but they have 'done well' at the expense of everyone else. They have got themselves back on track when, and showed the alternative model, but $85bn is a lot of money not to be in circulation." . Don't quote me but I think there's about 250 thousand people live in Iceland and they make a fair living from cod and tourism! They made a fucking fortune out of banking, you remember they had so much money they turned into idiots and bought premiership teams (I mean only real idiots and crooks do that?). At least they had the balls to jail a few of their crooked bankers and install proper banking regulation (not this shit the Tories have tried). But your right.... They defaulted on their loans and came out better for it! | |||
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" But your right.... They defaulted on their loans and came out better for it!" yes and no..... the defaulted on their loans... and no one would lend to them.... except the russians... so in effect russia bailed out iceland.. and they how things got restarted... the greeks think that using " getting closer to russia" as a threat will bring them the concessions.... | |||
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" But your right.... They defaulted on their loans and came out better for it!" and you missed my point - their debt as a % of gdp is still at 85% despite doing well! | |||
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"The Eurozone portion of Greece’s bailout = $275bn according to the Wall St Journal June 17, 2015. I think non repayment, would put us into recession. " I can see my well laid out points about Grexit have made it to the heart of the discussion :P 275bn is eff all these days. It's not even the balance sheet of RBS. It's a huge amount of cash to the Greeks as, duh, they're a much smaller nation. It would not put us in recession - it would rock the Euro and European banks and stock markets. | |||
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"The Eurozone portion of Greece’s bailout = $275bn according to the Wall St Journal June 17, 2015. I think non repayment, would put us into recession. I can see my well laid out points about Grexit have made it to the heart of the discussion :P 275bn is eff all these days. It's not even the balance sheet of RBS. It's a huge amount of cash to the Greeks as, duh, they're a much smaller nation. It would not put us in recession - it would rock the Euro and European banks and stock markets. " And then stack that against £660bn - you read that right, billion - that the UK g'ment has 'quantitatively eased' in the the British economy/bank's coffers since 2008 and it even looks small fry. | |||
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"The can has been kicked down the road for far long enough and it needs to end now. It is no surprise that all of Southern Europe is afflicted with the same malaise because their working and social practices are now held up for valid comparison to the rest of Europe. Greece, Italy, Spain and Portugal would all benefit from a Euro exit simply because they are all far too diverse from their harder working northern EU compatriots. Yassoo." Oh, and one last point on 'harder working northern Europeans' The Greeks work, on average, some of the longest hours in the EU - it's just that their jobs are less productive, eg agriculture & tourism & self-employed. They're not *just* being lazy. | |||
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"The Eurozone portion of Greece’s bailout = $275bn according to the Wall St Journal June 17, 2015. I think non repayment, would put us into recession. I can see my well laid out points about Grexit have made it to the heart of the discussion :P 275bn is eff all these days. It's not even the balance sheet of RBS. It's a huge amount of cash to the Greeks as, duh, they're a much smaller nation. It would not put us in recession - it would rock the Euro and European banks and stock markets. " $275bn is a very large sum to be defaulted on, we being the smaller of the lenders means sure, we lose out on a smaller sum. You mention the markets which are key to the whole of the Eurozone economies, including ours, the impact of that amount of money will have a devastating impact as share prices drop through the floor and traders will invest overseas to get greater return. Surely that would see the beginnings of a recession. Either way - it stems back the a lot of cash and an un-managable situation. | |||
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"The Eurozone portion of Greece’s bailout = $275bn according to the Wall St Journal June 17, 2015. I think non repayment, would put us into recession. I can see my well laid out points about Grexit have made it to the heart of the discussion :P 275bn is eff all these days. It's not even the balance sheet of RBS. It's a huge amount of cash to the Greeks as, duh, they're a much smaller nation. It would not put us in recession - it would rock the Euro and European banks and stock markets. And then stack that against £660bn - you read that right, billion - that the UK g'ment has 'quantitatively eased' in the the British economy/bank's coffers since 2008 and it even looks small fry. " but we are not defaulting | |||
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"$275bn is a very large sum to be defaulted on, we being the smaller of the lenders means sure, we lose out on a smaller sum. You mention the markets which are key to the whole of the Eurozone economies, including ours, the impact of that amount of money will have a devastating impact as share prices drop through the floor and traders will invest overseas to get greater return. Surely that would see the beginnings of a recession. Either way - it stems back the a lot of cash and an un-managable situation. " It seems like a large sum - but compare it against the UK's debt mountain (personal & public) of £156tn , so more than 6 times that of Greece. It would cause problems for those banks and g'ments who invested, and stocks and shares but... So what? | |||
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"but we are not defaulting" But we have in the past - Britain's been bankrupt twice and has rarely been out of debt in 300 yrs. The point is not a hit to German & French banks and various stock markets - it's what it means for the Eurozone as a whole and what it would mean for those other indebted nations - Spain, Ireland, Italy, Cyprus &c That's the bigger question and why the Troika is keen to break the Greek butterfly on a wheel. | |||
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"Scratching my head reading some of the comments, we moved back from Greece last year after living there for 10 years. Greece is playing a game with no one,they truely can't pay the money back,we use to collect old sheets for the hospital due to the bedding being ripped to pieces, watched old people going through the bins outside supermarkets looking for food,government workers not getting paid for month's, one last thing in the summer months we like a lot of Greeks worked upto 80 hrs a week. The Greek people have been kicked for too long..fuck the debt, I hope they don't pay back another cent. "
This is why the Greeks voted - democratically - for a g'ment that would end the nightmare they're living in. | |||
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" But your right.... They defaulted on their loans and came out better for it! and you missed my point - their debt as a % of gdp is still at 85% despite doing well!" . That's quite reasonable for a small population | |||
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" But your right.... They defaulted on their loans and came out better for it! yes and no..... the defaulted on their loans... and no one would lend to them.... except the russians... so in effect russia bailed out iceland.. and they how things got restarted... the greeks think that using " getting closer to russia" as a threat will bring them the concessions...." . Well the Danes did that originally Iceland being a former colony. I think the real problem is the Greeks can't afford to be bailed out by anybody, they just can't afford the repayments, and that's my point about what you do historically about currency crises... You devalue, that's why the drachma was 500.. | |||
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" But your right.... They defaulted on their loans and came out better for it! and you missed my point - their debt as a % of gdp is still at 85% despite doing well!. That's quite reasonable for a small population" Yeah, we're all up to our eyeballs in debt in the West. The UK's debt is 90.6% of GDP as of 2013. It's all a bit of a mess... | |||
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" But your right.... They defaulted on their loans and came out better for it! and you missed my point - their debt as a % of gdp is still at 85% despite doing well!. That's quite reasonable for a small population" How is that reasonable? As you say - they have a small population (323,000) so it would follow that they would have smaller public services to support and a smaller expenditure. They have an infra structure largely based on financial services, electricity, gas and oil - their recent R&D in green technologies, fishing, is a fishing, so all good income generators. Again, having such a high debt to gdp for such a small population - I can't see how they are doing well? They took a different route - which is fine, but if we would have taken a similar route, due to the size of our economy, the impact would have been far wider reaching, far longer lasting and I expect we wouldn't be investable for what a quarter century? | |||
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" But your right.... They defaulted on their loans and came out better for it! and you missed my point - their debt as a % of gdp is still at 85% despite doing well!. That's quite reasonable for a small population How is that reasonable? As you say - they have a small population (323,000) so it would follow that they would have smaller public services to support and a smaller expenditure. They have an infra structure largely based on financial services, electricity, gas and oil - their recent R&D in green technologies, fishing, is a fishing, so all good income generators. Again, having such a high debt to gdp for such a small population - I can't see how they are doing well? They took a different route - which is fine, but if we would have taken a similar route, due to the size of our economy, the impact would have been far wider reaching, far longer lasting and I expect we wouldn't be investable for what a quarter century? " . Small population small actual debt, say it's 80 billion. And they turn over 100 billion a year, you can see there's room to play with the numbers... You don't actually need 100 billion income to sustain 300k people, historically they ran a small surplus, what put them at 80 odd percent was banking!... Yes historically they couldn't but premiership teams and buy houses in the south of France but.... Nobody who runs an honest financial system can!! Unless your Saudi Arabia?. My point was Iceland ran a super luxurious lifestyle under banking, while actually without it they only had a"reasonable " lifestyle. | |||
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" How is that reasonable? As you say - they have a small population (323,000) so it would follow that they would have smaller public services to support and a smaller expenditure. They have an infra structure largely based on financial services, electricity, gas and oil - their recent R&D in green technologies, fishing, is a fishing, so all good income generators. Again, having such a high debt to gdp for such a small population - I can't see how they are doing well? They took a different route - which is fine, but if we would have taken a similar route, due to the size of our economy, the impact would have been far wider reaching, far longer lasting and I expect we wouldn't be investable for what a quarter century? . Small population small actual debt, say it's 80 billion. And they turn over 100 billion a year, you can see there's room to play with the numbers... You don't actually need 100 billion income to sustain 300k people, historically they ran a small surplus, what put them at 80 odd percent was banking!... Yes historically they couldn't but premiership teams and buy houses in the south of France but.... Nobody who runs an honest financial system can!! Unless your Saudi Arabia?. My point was Iceland ran a super luxurious lifestyle under banking, while actually without it they only had a"reasonable " lifestyle." I don't follow this logic | |||
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" But your right.... They defaulted on their loans and came out better for it! and you missed my point - their debt as a % of gdp is still at 85% despite doing well!. That's quite reasonable for a small population How is that reasonable? As you say - they have a small population (323,000) so it would follow that they would have smaller public services to support and a smaller expenditure. They have an infra structure largely based on financial services, electricity, gas and oil - their recent R&D in green technologies, fishing, is a fishing, so all good income generators. Again, having such a high debt to gdp for such a small population - I can't see how they are doing well? They took a different route - which is fine, but if we would have taken a similar route, due to the size of our economy, the impact would have been far wider reaching, far longer lasting and I expect we wouldn't be investable for what a quarter century? . Small population small actual debt, say it's 80 billion. And they turn over 100 billion a year, you can see there's room to play with the numbers... You don't actually need 100 billion income to sustain 300k people, historically they ran a small surplus, what put them at 80 odd percent was banking!... Yes historically they couldn't but premiership teams and buy houses in the south of France but.... Nobody who runs an honest financial system can!! Unless your Saudi Arabia?. My point was Iceland ran a super luxurious lifestyle under banking, while actually without it they only had a"reasonable " lifestyle." thats like saying I have a small finger - if I hit it with a small hammer it wont hurt. You are still going to hit it with a hammer - it'll still hurt! To make out small population = small debt has absolutely no bearing on anything. Not least that they dont actually own the debt! Like anything they are having to pay off that debt, probably with taxes, however, on looking into it - Icelandic wages are low, and inflation has been high, making repayments hard. Reuters in late 2013 say mortgages repayments are going up while house prices are falling - so much so that $1.26bn debt relief programme was launched | |||
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"Scratching my head reading some of the comments, we moved back from Greece last year after living there for 10 years. Greece is playing a game with no one,they truely can't pay the money back,we use to collect old sheets for the hospital due to the bedding being ripped to pieces, watched old people going through the bins outside supermarkets looking for food,government workers not getting paid for month's, one last thing in the summer months we like a lot of Greeks worked upto 80 hrs a week. The Greek people have been kicked for too long..fuck the debt, I hope they don't pay back another cent. " I would agree that the Greeks have been "kicked" for too long, but that doesn't mean that they didn't need a "kicking" Firstly the "too long" bit. Any idiot could see five years ago that Greece would eventually have to leave the Euro but the EU IMF ECB have been content with just kicking the can down the road with some Micawberish idea that "something will turn up" while the Greeks suffered. Well finally something has turned up. THE END OF THE ROAD. It is high time to stop this nonsense and let the Greek people start to rebuild with their own currency, as should have happened years ago. The "needed a kicking" bit. Many people seem to have conveniently forgotten how Greece got into the shit in the first place. Here are a few reminders. Civil servants and a list a mile long of so called special occupations (including hairdressers  ) who could retire at 50 with gold plated pensions.
A state owned railway that paid out millions more in wages than it took in fares.
The Athens metro that took fares by using honesty boxes FFS.
Thousands upon thousands of "ghost workers" who had jobs in the public sector that just didn't turn up for work, but were paid in full for years. Most drew their salary's while running small businesses on the side.
A Tax system that was not only unfit for purpose but one that legitimately allowed, for example, company's to claim luxury yachts as office expenses.
A country that in many cases gave better benefits to its people than Germany even though it produced very little apart from Olive oil and tourism.
The list could go on and on.
They cooked the books to get into the Euro thinking it would lead them to the land of milk and honey forever all paid for by someone else of course. Well it didn't and now it is payback time.
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"Scratching my head reading some of the comments, we moved back from Greece last year after living there for 10 years. Greece is playing a game with no one,they truely can't pay the money back,we use to collect old sheets for the hospital due to the bedding being ripped to pieces, watched old people going through the bins outside supermarkets looking for food,government workers not getting paid for month's, one last thing in the summer months we like a lot of Greeks worked upto 80 hrs a week. The Greek people have been kicked for too long..fuck the debt, I hope they don't pay back another cent.
This is why the Greeks voted - democratically - for a g'ment that would end the nightmare they're living in. "If you/they think that being in the Euro has been a nightmare, wait until Greece wakes up on July 01st outside of it. The pain will be much, much worse in the short to mid term. | |||
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"Scratching my head reading some of the comments, we moved back from Greece last year after living there for 10 years. Greece is playing a game with no one,they truely can't pay the money back,we use to collect old sheets for the hospital due to the bedding being ripped to pieces, watched old people going through the bins outside supermarkets looking for food,government workers not getting paid for month's, one last thing in the summer months we like a lot of Greeks worked upto 80 hrs a week. The Greek people have been kicked for too long..fuck the debt, I hope they don't pay back another cent.
This is why the Greeks voted - democratically - for a g'ment that would end the nightmare they're living in.
If you/they think that being in the Euro has been a nightmare, wait until Greece wakes up on July 01st outside of it.
The pain will be much, much worse in the short to mid term. "That is true but it would have been much less painful if someone had grasped the nettle five or six years ago and would be over by now. Kicking it down the road for another year or two will only make it worse again when the inevitable happens. | |||
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" But your right.... They defaulted on their loans and came out better for it! and you missed my point - their debt as a % of gdp is still at 85% despite doing well!. That's quite reasonable for a small population How is that reasonable? As you say - they have a small population (323,000) so it would follow that they would have smaller public services to support and a smaller expenditure. They have an infra structure largely based on financial services, electricity, gas and oil - their recent R&D in green technologies, fishing, is a fishing, so all good income generators. Again, having such a high debt to gdp for such a small population - I can't see how they are doing well? They took a different route - which is fine, but if we would have taken a similar route, due to the size of our economy, the impact would have been far wider reaching, far longer lasting and I expect we wouldn't be investable for what a quarter century? . Small population small actual debt, say it's 80 billion. And they turn over 100 billion a year, you can see there's room to play with the numbers... You don't actually need 100 billion income to sustain 300k people, historically they ran a small surplus, what put them at 80 odd percent was banking!... Yes historically they couldn't but premiership teams and buy houses in the south of France but.... Nobody who runs an honest financial system can!! Unless your Saudi Arabia?. My point was Iceland ran a super luxurious lifestyle under banking, while actually without it they only had a"reasonable " lifestyle. thats like saying I have a small finger - if I hit it with a small hammer it wont hurt. You are still going to hit it with a hammer - it'll still hurt! To make out small population = small debt has absolutely no bearing on anything. Not least that they dont actually own the debt! Like anything they are having to pay off that debt, probably with taxes, however, on looking into it - Icelandic wages are low, and inflation has been high, making repayments hard. Reuters in late 2013 say mortgages repayments are going up while house prices are falling - so much so that $1.26bn debt relief programme was launched " . Yes inflation is high because they the ability to create inflation to eliviate the debt... If I owe you 100 krona and that krona is worth 20 quid, I then ramp up inflation which devalues my krona making my krona only worth 4 quid.. You can see it's much easier to pay your debt off ... Instead of owing 20 quid I now only owe 4. This is what the Greeks have been doing for a long time and is why there drachma was 500-1 on the pound, it has lots of downsides as it makes you very insular.. But imports become very hard because your low currency exchange but exports become higher for the same reason, so it's a see saw with good and bad points!. However removing a sovereign countries ability to tinker with its monetary policy means all they have left is.... Structural reform. It was the entire point of a single monetary policy, to remove politicians ability to tinker and force them to push reform(longer working hours, less health and safety, less social security, less health care)...... Hence the in word of 'austerity' that we've heard continuously for the last few years. The same economist who Ronald Reagan loved for his policies is the same guy that dreamed up the euro. | |||
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"If a pay day lender loans unwisely to an low paid worker and the worker defaults then the courts often tell the pay day lender to write the debt off. Did the ECP or any of the other countries who lent Greece money really believd they could pay it back? "It was the boom years - the banks lent recklessly to all and sundry, including ourselves | |||
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"Every benefit the UK has today, has come from the ability to manipulate it's own currency. In a real union like the uk then those benefits can be distributed fairer. Now if you just have monetary union without political and social union, what you'll actually get is one county sucking the life out of the next.... You steal there youth(immigration) resources (Greek islands) exports (Germany Hoover's up your market share). I'm not against a European union in principle.... I'm against it in its actual working practise!" It's worse than that... The international élite have recouped their losses following the banking crash and are now are richer than ever. We, the peasants, pay for their mistakes. "So the rich ones win, and the poor shall lose, so the Bible says, and it still is news..." | |||
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"If a pay day lender loans unwisely to an low paid worker and the worker defaults then the courts often tell the pay day lender to write the debt off. Did the ECP or any of the other countries who lent Greece money really believd they could pay it back? ". No they knew they couldn't pay it back, but they liked the ship wreck of Greece being in euro because it lowered the Euros value which is exactly what Germany wanted and benefited them the most!... Which is why is Europe is really a union then Germany(and the UK) should cough up and write the debt down? | |||
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"Every benefit the UK has today, has come from the ability to manipulate it's own currency. In a real union like the uk then those benefits can be distributed fairer. Now if you just have monetary union without political and social union, what you'll actually get is one county sucking the life out of the next.... You steal there youth(immigration) resources (Greek islands) exports (Germany Hoover's up your market share). I'm not against a European union in principle.... I'm against it in its actual working practise! It's worse than that... The international élite have recouped their losses following the banking crash and are now are richer than ever. We, the peasants, pay for their mistakes. "So the rich ones win, and the poor shall lose, so the Bible says, and it still is news..."" . That's because the 0.01% don't have to abide by the same rules they forced upon us... There's no austerity for Starbucks because they can pick and choose where they pay there tax, vat,CT. They can dodge the devaluation by transferring assets around the globe. They get bailed out while we all have to get austerity! It's mass fucking madness. | |||
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"^ it's not madness, it's called free market economics " . What free market!!! All the banks went bust 7 fucking years ago. The car companies got bailed out Homeowners got bailed out Every blue chip company has in effect been bailed out... There borrowing money at 0%.... Nothing in some countries they pay you... It's negative interest rates... That's not a free market... Google hasn't had structural reform. Hsbc Barclay's, rbs,Deutsche bank credit suisse,Goldman Sachs, deloiite,.... There running the fucking show and it ain't no free market! | |||
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"^ it's not madness, it's called free market economics . What free market!!! All the banks went bust 7 fucking years ago. The car companies got bailed out Homeowners got bailed out Every blue chip company has in effect been bailed out... There borrowing money at 0%.... Nothing in some countries they pay you... It's negative interest rates... That's not a free market... Google hasn't had structural reform. Hsbc Barclay's, rbs,Deutsche bank credit suisse,Goldman Sachs, deloiite,.... There running the fucking show and it ain't no free market!" I totally agree. But this is the world we find ourselves in. | |||
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"What I want to know is... Why when things go wrong is it always said that people need structural reform to improve... Yet when business goes wrong... Oh we don't need structural reform to improve!! Oh no Yeah bp can pollute the entire gulf coast with the worst environmental disaster... No reform needed. Exon Valdez... No reform needed Bhopal.... No reform needed Fracking... No reform needed Banking.... No reform needed They just get to keep on trucking with there shit... Yet those Greeks with pensions at 55 and health care... You cheeky twats.. You definitely need reform" ...and breathe! It will take, as in Greece, things to get an awful lot worse before there is the possibility of real change | |||
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"I get far too excited over the wrong things as I get older "You're right to be angry - but channel it. | |||
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"What I want to know is... Why when things go wrong is it always said that people need structural reform to improve... Yet when business goes wrong... Oh we don't need structural reform to improve!! Oh no Yeah bp can pollute the entire gulf coast with the worst environmental disaster... No reform needed. Exon Valdez... No reform needed Bhopal.... No reform needed Fracking... No reform needed Banking.... No reform needed They just get to keep on trucking with there shit... Yet those Greeks with pensions at 55 and health care... You cheeky twats.. You definitely need reform" Two wrongs don't make a right and the Greeks certainly need structural reform. Do you think it is right that a German taxpayer has to work until 65 to pay taxes so that a Greek can retire at 55? (or in many cases 50) BTW. Fracking doesn't need reform. It needs getting on with. | |||
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"If a pay day lender loans unwisely to an low paid worker and the worker defaults then the courts often tell the pay day lender to write the debt off. Did the ECP or any of the other countries who lent Greece money really believd they could pay it back?
It was the boom years - the banks lent recklessly to all and sundry, including ourselves "True, now the banks have to face the consequences. | |||
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"What I want to know is... Why when things go wrong is it always said that people need structural reform to improve... Yet when business goes wrong... Oh we don't need structural reform to improve!! Oh no Yeah bp can pollute the entire gulf coast with the worst environmental disaster... No reform needed. Exon Valdez... No reform needed Bhopal.... No reform needed Fracking... No reform needed Banking.... No reform needed They just get to keep on trucking with there shit... Yet those Greeks with pensions at 55 and health care... You cheeky twats.. You definitely need reform Two wrongs don't make a right and the Greeks certainly need structural reform. Do you think it is right that a German taxpayer has to work until 65 to pay taxes so that a Greek can retire at 55? (or in many cases 50) BTW. Fracking doesn't need reform. It needs getting on with." . Firstly... What's it got to do with me or indeed a German what age a Greek retires at! Secondly I personally believe your right and some reform would benefit the Greeks... But again what's that got to do with me or a German. Thirdly.. BTW. Fracking is a subsidised industry... It's making money from you and I by issuing junk bonds which are financed by 0% interest rates which are subsidised by the tax payer!. The average barrel of oil costs 75$ dollars to extract!.... It's what's known in a free market as insolvent!.... Yes there propped up no differently than a Greek pensioner!! Btw  | |||
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 Let them have a cuppa and scone and write a letter to each other saying 'there's no more money' | |||
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"What I want to know is... Why when things go wrong is it always said that people need structural reform to improve... Yet when business goes wrong... Oh we don't need structural reform to improve!! Oh no Yeah bp can pollute the entire gulf coast with the worst environmental disaster... No reform needed. Exon Valdez... No reform needed Bhopal.... No reform needed Fracking... No reform needed Banking.... No reform needed They just get to keep on trucking with there shit... Yet those Greeks with pensions at 55 and health care... You cheeky twats.. You definitely need reform Two wrongs don't make a right and the Greeks certainly need structural reform. Do you think it is right that a German taxpayer has to work until 65 to pay taxes so that a Greek can retire at 55? (or in many cases 50) BTW. Fracking doesn't need reform. It needs getting on with.. Firstly... What's it got to do with me or indeed a German what age a Greek retires at! Secondly I personally believe your right and some reform would benefit the Greeks... But again what's that got to do with me or a German. Thirdly.. BTW. Fracking is a subsidised industry... It's making money from you and I by issuing junk bonds which are financed by 0% interest rates which are subsidised by the tax payer!. The average barrel of oil costs 75$ dollars to extract!.... It's what's known in a free market as insolvent!.... Yes there propped up no differently than a Greek pensioner!! Btw "1. It's got a hell of a lot to do with a German. He/she is picking up the tab. Around 250 billion and counting. 2. Fracking was quite profitable until a few months ago when the oil price dropped. Don't think that it will stay at $65 a barrel forever. When it suits the Saudi's it will be back over $100 then fracking will not only be profitable again but will give us in the civilised west a bit more independence from the barbarians in the middle east. | |||
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"What I want to know is... Why when things go wrong is it always said that people need structural reform to improve... Yet when business goes wrong... Oh we don't need structural reform to improve!! Oh no Yeah bp can pollute the entire gulf coast with the worst environmental disaster... No reform needed. Exon Valdez... No reform needed Bhopal.... No reform needed Fracking... No reform needed Banking.... No reform needed They just get to keep on trucking with there shit... Yet those Greeks with pensions at 55 and health care... You cheeky twats.. You definitely need reform Two wrongs don't make a right and the Greeks certainly need structural reform. Do you think it is right that a German taxpayer has to work until 65 to pay taxes so that a Greek can retire at 55? (or in many cases 50) BTW. Fracking doesn't need reform. It needs getting on with.. Firstly... What's it got to do with me or indeed a German what age a Greek retires at! Secondly I personally believe your right and some reform would benefit the Greeks... But again what's that got to do with me or a German. Thirdly.. BTW. Fracking is a subsidised industry... It's making money from you and I by issuing junk bonds which are financed by 0% interest rates which are subsidised by the tax payer!. The average barrel of oil costs 75$ dollars to extract!.... It's what's known in a free market as insolvent!.... Yes there propped up no differently than a Greek pensioner!! Btw
1. It's got a hell of a lot to do with a German. He/she is picking up the tab. Around 250 billion and counting.
2. Fracking was quite profitable until a few months ago when the oil price dropped. Don't think that it will stay at $65 a barrel forever. When it suits the Saudi's it will be back over $100 then fracking will not only be profitable again but will give us in the civilised west a bit more independence from the barbarians in the middle east.
". So let me get this straight.... You gave 250 billion to a bunch of people you thought were lazy unproductive tax avoiders.. You knew they'd never be able to repay it from the beginning and now because they can't/won't... It's their fault you've lost your money?. It would be the equivalent in business of pissing billions and billions into fracking only to find a week after you've done it the price fell through the floor and you've lost it all?.. Do you go bankrupt or do you get bailed out by the tax payer with no reform of your practise... | |||
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"What I want to know is... Why when things go wrong is it always said that people need structural reform to improve... Yet when business goes wrong... Oh we don't need structural reform to improve!! Oh no Yeah bp can pollute the entire gulf coast with the worst environmental disaster... No reform needed. Exon Valdez... No reform needed Bhopal.... No reform needed Fracking... No reform needed Banking.... No reform needed They just get to keep on trucking with there shit... Yet those Greeks with pensions at 55 and health care... You cheeky twats.. You definitely need reform Two wrongs don't make a right and the Greeks certainly need structural reform. Do you think it is right that a German taxpayer has to work until 65 to pay taxes so that a Greek can retire at 55? (or in many cases 50) BTW. Fracking doesn't need reform. It needs getting on with.. Firstly... What's it got to do with me or indeed a German what age a Greek retires at! Secondly I personally believe your right and some reform would benefit the Greeks... But again what's that got to do with me or a German. Thirdly.. BTW. Fracking is a subsidised industry... It's making money from you and I by issuing junk bonds which are financed by 0% interest rates which are subsidised by the tax payer!. The average barrel of oil costs 75$ dollars to extract!.... It's what's known in a free market as insolvent!.... Yes there propped up no differently than a Greek pensioner!! Btw
1. It's got a hell of a lot to do with a German. He/she is picking up the tab. Around 250 billion and counting.
2. Fracking was quite profitable until a few months ago when the oil price dropped. Don't think that it will stay at $65 a barrel forever. When it suits the Saudi's it will be back over $100 then fracking will not only be profitable again but will give us in the civilised west a bit more independence from the barbarians in the middle east.
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So let me get this straight....
You gave 250 billion to a bunch of people you thought were lazy unproductive tax avoiders.. You knew they'd never be able to repay it from the beginning and now because they can't/won't... It's their fault you've lost your money?.
It would be the equivalent in business of pissing billions and billions into fracking only to find a week after you've done it the price fell through the floor and you've lost it all?.. Do you go bankrupt or do you get bailed out by the tax payer with no reform of your practise..."I think you will find we are closer to agreement (other than fracking) than you think. The money was loaned (wrongly in my view BTW) with a fair old chunk of terms and conditions. When the money was being doled out the Greeks were happy to sign up for pretty much anything and the Troika were happy to let them do it (Save the Euro at all costs was the mantra) Now the Greeks want to cock on the terms and conditions but still get the cash. The answer (so far) has been which bit of off and fuck do you not understand? The Greeks have had the good times but seem to want to carry on with someone else (mostly the Germans) picking up the tab. My belief all along is that Greece should have been allowed to drop out of the Euro five or six years ago. The Germans and others would have saved a shit load of cash and by now Greece would be well on the road to recovery. Any more bailouts would just be throwing good money after bad and Greece should get out of the Euro (albeit belatedly) now. Which is pretty much what you are saying in your analogy above. | |||
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And several million Greeks are joining us.
Nobody ever sees the pitfalls of things when there all lardy da.. When they turn shit they think twice!.
Think about that with fracking!.
They didn't get exemption from the clean air and water act for nothing! | |||
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"Scratching my head reading some of the comments, we moved back from Greece last year after living there for 10 years. Greece is playing a game with no one,they truely can't pay the money back,we use to collect old sheets for the hospital due to the bedding being ripped to pieces, watched old people going through the bins outside supermarkets looking for food,government workers not getting paid for month's, one last thing in the summer months we like a lot of Greeks worked upto 80 hrs a week. The Greek people have been kicked for too long..fuck the debt, I hope they don't pay back another cent.
This is why the Greeks voted - democratically - for a g'ment that would end the nightmare they're living in. "I wish I could vote my debt away so easily. | |||
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" But your right.... They defaulted on their loans and came out better for it! and you missed my point - their debt as a % of gdp is still at 85% despite doing well!. That's quite reasonable for a small population How is that reasonable? As you say - they have a small population (323,000) so it would follow that they would have smaller public services to support and a smaller expenditure. They have an infra structure largely based on financial services, electricity, gas and oil - their recent R&D in green technologies, fishing, is a fishing, so all good income generators. Again, having such a high debt to gdp for such a small population - I can't see how they are doing well? They took a different route - which is fine, but if we would have taken a similar route, due to the size of our economy, the impact would have been far wider reaching, far longer lasting and I expect we wouldn't be investable for what a quarter century? . Small population small actual debt, say it's 80 billion. And they turn over 100 billion a year, you can see there's room to play with the numbers... You don't actually need 100 billion income to sustain 300k people, historically they ran a small surplus, what put them at 80 odd percent was banking!... Yes historically they couldn't but premiership teams and buy houses in the south of France but.... Nobody who runs an honest financial system can!! Unless your Saudi Arabia?. My point was Iceland ran a super luxurious lifestyle under banking, while actually without it they only had a"reasonable " lifestyle. thats like saying I have a small finger - if I hit it with a small hammer it wont hurt. You are still going to hit it with a hammer - it'll still hurt! To make out small population = small debt has absolutely no bearing on anything. Not least that they dont actually own the debt! Like anything they are having to pay off that debt, probably with taxes, however, on looking into it - Icelandic wages are low, and inflation has been high, making repayments hard. Reuters in late 2013 say mortgages repayments are going up while house prices are falling - so much so that $1.26bn debt relief programme was launched . Yes inflation is high because they the ability to create inflation to eliviate the debt... If I owe you 100 krona and that krona is worth 20 quid, I then ramp up inflation which devalues my krona making my krona only worth 4 quid.. You can see it's much easier to pay your debt off ... Instead of owing 20 quid I now only owe 4. This is what the Greeks have been doing for a long time and is why there drachma was 500-1 on the pound, it has lots of downsides as it makes you very insular.. But imports become very hard because your low currency exchange but exports become higher for the same reason, so it's a see saw with good and bad points!. However removing a sovereign countries ability to tinker with its monetary policy means all they have left is.... Structural reform. It was the entire point of a single monetary policy, to remove politicians ability to tinker and force them to push reform(longer working hours, less health and safety, less social security, less health care)...... Hence the in word of 'austerity' that we've heard continuously for the last few years. The same economist who Ronald Reagan loved for his policies is the same guy that dreamed up the euro." Does he have a name? | |||
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Bankruptcy is an integral part of capitalism! It's there to make you realise there's consequences to your borrowing and as importantly.... Your lending!
Who was the famous yank businessman that said you can't make a success until you've gone bankrupt twice | |||
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"Every benefit the UK has today, has come from the ability to manipulate it's own currency. In a real union like the uk then those benefits can be distributed fairer. Now if you just have monetary union without political and social union, what you'll actually get is one county sucking the life out of the next.... You steal there youth(immigration) resources (Greek islands) exports (Germany Hoover's up your market share). I'm not against a European union in principle.... I'm against it in its actual working practise! It's worse than that... The international élite have recouped their losses following the banking crash and are now are richer than ever. We, the peasants, pay for their mistakes. "So the rich ones win, and the poor shall lose, so the Bible says, and it still is news...". That's because the 0.01% don't have to abide by the same rules they forced upon us... There's no austerity for Starbucks because they can pick and choose where they pay there tax, vat,CT. They can dodge the devaluation by transferring assets around the globe. They get bailed out while we all have to get austerity! It's mass fucking madness." When was Starbucks bailed out? I must have missed that one. | |||
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" But your right.... They defaulted on their loans and came out better for it! and you missed my point - their debt as a % of gdp is still at 85% despite doing well!. That's quite reasonable for a small population How is that reasonable? As you say - they have a small population (323,000) so it would follow that they would have smaller public services to support and a smaller expenditure. They have an infra structure largely based on financial services, electricity, gas and oil - their recent R&D in green technologies, fishing, is a fishing, so all good income generators. Again, having such a high debt to gdp for such a small population - I can't see how they are doing well? They took a different route - which is fine, but if we would have taken a similar route, due to the size of our economy, the impact would have been far wider reaching, far longer lasting and I expect we wouldn't be investable for what a quarter century? . Small population small actual debt, say it's 80 billion. And they turn over 100 billion a year, you can see there's room to play with the numbers... You don't actually need 100 billion income to sustain 300k people, historically they ran a small surplus, what put them at 80 odd percent was banking!... Yes historically they couldn't but premiership teams and buy houses in the south of France but.... Nobody who runs an honest financial system can!! Unless your Saudi Arabia?. My point was Iceland ran a super luxurious lifestyle under banking, while actually without it they only had a"reasonable " lifestyle. thats like saying I have a small finger - if I hit it with a small hammer it wont hurt. You are still going to hit it with a hammer - it'll still hurt! To make out small population = small debt has absolutely no bearing on anything. Not least that they dont actually own the debt! Like anything they are having to pay off that debt, probably with taxes, however, on looking into it - Icelandic wages are low, and inflation has been high, making repayments hard. Reuters in late 2013 say mortgages repayments are going up while house prices are falling - so much so that $1.26bn debt relief programme was launched . Yes inflation is high because they the ability to create inflation to eliviate the debt... If I owe you 100 krona and that krona is worth 20 quid, I then ramp up inflation which devalues my krona making my krona only worth 4 quid.. You can see it's much easier to pay your debt off ... Instead of owing 20 quid I now only owe 4. This is what the Greeks have been doing for a long time and is why there drachma was 500-1 on the pound, it has lots of downsides as it makes you very insular.. But imports become very hard because your low currency exchange but exports become higher for the same reason, so it's a see saw with good and bad points!. However removing a sovereign countries ability to tinker with its monetary policy means all they have left is.... Structural reform. It was the entire point of a single monetary policy, to remove politicians ability to tinker and force them to push reform(longer working hours, less health and safety, less social security, less health care)...... Hence the in word of 'austerity' that we've heard continuously for the last few years. The same economist who Ronald Reagan loved for his policies is the same guy that dreamed up the euro. Does he have a name?" . Yes.... Just can't think of it at the moment lol | |||
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"What I want to know is... Why when things go wrong is it always said that people need structural reform to improve... Yet when business goes wrong... Oh we don't need structural reform to improve!! Oh no Yeah bp can pollute the entire gulf coast with the worst environmental disaster... No reform needed. Exon Valdez... No reform needed Bhopal.... No reform needed Fracking... No reform needed Banking.... No reform needed They just get to keep on trucking with there shit... Yet those Greeks with pensions at 55 and health care... You cheeky twats.. You definitely need reform Two wrongs don't make a right and the Greeks certainly need structural reform. Do you think it is right that a German taxpayer has to work until 65 to pay taxes so that a Greek can retire at 55? (or in many cases 50) BTW. Fracking doesn't need reform. It needs getting on with." I agree with you mostly but the Germans bent the rules to allow the Greeks. They did this so they could sell their goods more competitively in the Greek market. The profits from selling those goods to Greeks is mostly taxed in Germany. If you're in a true union you can not expect to get just the benefits and leave others to pay the costs. This seems to me what Germany is trying to do with Greece. | |||
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"Every benefit the UK has today, has come from the ability to manipulate it's own currency. In a real union like the uk then those benefits can be distributed fairer. Now if you just have monetary union without political and social union, what you'll actually get is one county sucking the life out of the next.... You steal there youth(immigration) resources (Greek islands) exports (Germany Hoover's up your market share). I'm not against a European union in principle.... I'm against it in its actual working practise! It's worse than that... The international élite have recouped their losses following the banking crash and are now are richer than ever. We, the peasants, pay for their mistakes. "So the rich ones win, and the poor shall lose, so the Bible says, and it still is news...". That's because the 0.01% don't have to abide by the same rules they forced upon us... There's no austerity for Starbucks because they can pick and choose where they pay there tax, vat,CT. They can dodge the devaluation by transferring assets around the globe. They get bailed out while we all have to get austerity! It's mass fucking madness. When was Starbucks bailed out? I must have missed that one." . In effect 0% interest rates have bailed out the FTSE 100. They all have the ability to borrow at 0 cost.. Now if your competing against Starbucks... Your goona struggle as last time I looked rbs was actually causing small/medium businesses to fold so they could gobble up there assets... Don't worry though... They paid a fine once they got found out fit doing it! | |||
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"What I want to know is... Why when things go wrong is it always said that people need structural reform to improve... Yet when business goes wrong... Oh we don't need structural reform to improve!! Oh no Yeah bp can pollute the entire gulf coast with the worst environmental disaster... No reform needed. Exon Valdez... No reform needed Bhopal.... No reform needed Fracking... No reform needed Banking.... No reform needed They just get to keep on trucking with there shit... Yet those Greeks with pensions at 55 and health care... You cheeky twats.. You definitely need reform Two wrongs don't make a right and the Greeks certainly need structural reform. Do you think it is right that a German taxpayer has to work until 65 to pay taxes so that a Greek can retire at 55? (or in many cases 50) BTW. Fracking doesn't need reform. It needs getting on with.. Firstly... What's it got to do with me or indeed a German what age a Greek retires at! Secondly I personally believe your right and some reform would benefit the Greeks... But again what's that got to do with me or a German. " If they are asking me to pay for it it has everything to do with me. " Thirdly.. BTW. Fracking is a subsidised industry... It's making money from you and I by issuing junk bonds which are financed by 0% interest rates which are subsidised by the tax payer!. The average barrel of oil costs 75$ dollars to extract!.... It's what's known in a free market as insolvent!.... Yes there propped up no differently than a Greek pensioner!! Btw " | |||
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"What I want to know is... Why when things go wrong is it always said that people need structural reform to improve... Yet when business goes wrong... Oh we don't need structural reform to improve!! Oh no Yeah bp can pollute the entire gulf coast with the worst environmental disaster... No reform needed. Exon Valdez... No reform needed Bhopal.... No reform needed Fracking... No reform needed Banking.... No reform needed They just get to keep on trucking with there shit... Yet those Greeks with pensions at 55 and health care... You cheeky twats.. You definitely need reform Two wrongs don't make a right and the Greeks certainly need structural reform. Do you think it is right that a German taxpayer has to work until 65 to pay taxes so that a Greek can retire at 55? (or in many cases 50) BTW. Fracking doesn't need reform. It needs getting on with.. Firstly... What's it got to do with me or indeed a German what age a Greek retires at! Secondly I personally believe your right and some reform would benefit the Greeks... But again what's that got to do with me or a German. Thirdly.. BTW. Fracking is a subsidised industry... It's making money from you and I by issuing junk bonds which are financed by 0% interest rates which are subsidised by the tax payer!. The average barrel of oil costs 75$ dollars to extract!.... It's what's known in a free market as insolvent!.... Yes there propped up no differently than a Greek pensioner!! Btw
1. It's got a hell of a lot to do with a German. He/she is picking up the tab. Around 250 billion and counting.
2. Fracking was quite profitable until a few months ago when the oil price dropped. Don't think that it will stay at $65 a barrel forever. When it suits the Saudi's it will be back over $100 then fracking will not only be profitable again but will give us in the civilised west a bit more independence from the barbarians in the middle east.
.
So let me get this straight....
You gave 250 billion to a bunch of people you thought were lazy unproductive tax avoiders.. You knew they'd never be able to repay it from the beginning and now because they can't/won't... It's their fault you've lost your money?.
It would be the equivalent in business of pissing billions and billions into fracking only to find a week after you've done it the price fell through the floor and you've lost it all?.. Do you go bankrupt or do you get bailed out by the tax payer with no reform of your practise...
I think you will find we are closer to agreement (other than fracking) than you think.
The money was loaned (wrongly in my view BTW) with a fair old chunk of terms and conditions. When the money was being doled out the Greeks were happy to sign up for pretty much anything and the Troika were happy to let them do it (Save the Euro at all costs was the mantra)
Now the Greeks want to cock on the terms and conditions but still get the cash. The answer (so far) has been which bit of off and fuck do you not understand? The Greeks have had the good times but seem to want to carry on with someone else (mostly the Germans) picking up the tab.
My belief all along is that Greece should have been allowed to drop out of the Euro five or six years ago. The Germans and others would have saved a shit load of cash and by now Greece would be well on the road to recovery.
Any more bailouts would just be throwing good money after bad and Greece should get out of the Euro (albeit belatedly) now. Which is pretty much what you are saying in your analogy above. "The real lesson to learnt from this is that you can not play politics with economies unless you're willing to pay to make it work. Greece should never have been aloud to join a currency union with Germany unless the Germans were willing to pay for them. Germany wanted Greece in for political reasons and short term financial gain. It should be willing to pay for that now but it's not, hence the crisis. Personally I think Greece should never have been aloud in the Euro, should have left 5 years ago when things went bad and the sooner it leaves now the better it will be for Greece, Germany, Europe and everyone else. | |||
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"Robert mundell....grrr names and old age!" According to Mundell's model there are 4 requirements for a successful monetary union. They are:- 1) Free movement of labour. 2) Full capital mobility including price and wage flexibility. 3) Automatic fiscal transfers between richer and poorer areas. 4) Coordinated business cycled. As far as I can see none of these 4 basic criteria exist between Germany and Greece, indeed I'd say they don't expect between the whole of Northern Europe and Southern Europe. I hardly think it's fair to blame the guy who set out how it should be done probably when if fails because it wasn't. | |||
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"Robert mundell....grrr names and old age! According to Mundell's model there are 4 requirements for a successful monetary union. They are:- 1) Free movement of labour. 2) Full capital mobility including price and wage flexibility. 3) Automatic fiscal transfers between richer and poorer areas. 4) Coordinated business cycled. As far as I can see none of these 4 basic criteria exist between Germany and Greece, indeed I'd say they don't expect between the whole of Northern Europe and Southern Europe. I hardly think it's fair to blame the guy who set out how it should be done probably when if fails because it wasn't. " . Read some of his books Monetary agenda for the world economy and building a new Europe are two good ones to start with!. He's a very clever guy but you get the feeling when reading anything by him how genuinely unconcerned he is about human welfare!. His whole philosophy about monetary union was forcing countries into structural reform.. Supply side economists do my tits in to be frank | |||
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"Robert mundell....grrr names and old age! According to Mundell's model there are 4 requirements for a successful monetary union. They are:- 1) Free movement of labour. 2) Full capital mobility including price and wage flexibility. 3) Automatic fiscal transfers between richer and poorer areas. 4) Coordinated business cycled. As far as I can see none of these 4 basic criteria exist between Germany and Greece, indeed I'd say they don't expect between the whole of Northern Europe and Southern Europe. I hardly think it's fair to blame the guy who set out how it should be done probably when if fails because it wasn't. . Read some of his books Monetary agenda for the world economy and building a new Europe are two good ones to start with!. He's a very clever guy but you get the feeling when reading anything by him how genuinely unconcerned he is about human welfare!. His whole philosophy about monetary union was forcing countries into structural reform.. Supply side economists do my tits in to be frank "I don't think I've got the time to read his whole book right now but.. Being basically an economic liberal I like the idea of lower taxes and the justification that it actually leads to higher returns. Also the principle that money should have a direct and fixed relationship with something like gold would definitely solve the fractional reserve lending problem. Whether supply leads demand or demand leads supply is probably well above my ability to fully understand and therefore comment. Maybe the real problem here is, yet again, politician are willing to do the easy stuff, (cut taxes) but are not willing to follow through with the hard stuff (returning to the Gold Standard). | |||
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"I don't think I've got the time to read his whole book right now but.. Being basically an economic liberal I like the idea of lower taxes and the justification that it actually leads to higher returns. Also the principle that money should have a direct and fixed relationship with something like gold would definitely solve the fractional reserve lending problem. Whether supply leads demand or demand leads supply is probably well above my ability to fully understand and therefore comment. Maybe the real problem here is, yet again, politician are willing to do the easy stuff, (cut taxes) but are not willing to follow through with the hard stuff (returning to the Gold Standard)." Returning to the Gold Standard?? LMAO Every country in the world operates a fiat currency - it's only worth what people think it is. Being an 'economic liberal'? That means letting corporations do what they please with minimal taxation or regulation, imo. | |||
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"I don't think I've got the time to read his whole book right now but.. Being basically an economic liberal I like the idea of lower taxes and the justification that it actually leads to higher returns. Also the principle that money should have a direct and fixed relationship with something like gold would definitely solve the fractional reserve lending problem. Whether supply leads demand or demand leads supply is probably well above my ability to fully understand and therefore comment. Maybe the real problem here is, yet again, politician are willing to do the easy stuff, (cut taxes) but are not willing to follow through with the hard stuff (returning to the Gold Standard). Returning to the Gold Standard?? LMAO Every country in the world operates a fiat currency - it's only worth what people think it is. Being an 'economic liberal'? That means letting corporations do what they please with minimal taxation or regulation, imo. " Being liberal actually means letting everybody or thing do as they please with minimal intervention or regulation from the state. Hence the permissive society, de criminalisation of homosexuality, removal of people on lower pay from income tax and, yes, only taxing corporations and the rich at a rate that will actually increase tax revenues not cripple them. As for the Gold Standard, I'm not advocating it I'm simply stating that it's part of the full supply side economic model and wondering whether the fact that, when people claim to be following the model but are in fact only following part of it, might be the reason why we're in the current mess we're in. | |||
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"Being liberal actually means letting everybody or thing do as they please with minimal intervention or regulation from the state. Hence the permissive society, de criminalisation of homosexuality, removal of people on lower pay from income tax and, yes, only taxing corporations and the rich at a rate that will actually increase tax revenues not cripple them. As for the Gold Standard, I'm not advocating it I'm simply stating that it's part of the full supply side economic model and wondering whether the fact that, when people claim to be following the model but are in fact only following part of it, might be the reason why we're in the current mess we're in." Economic liberalism is the prevailing philosophical mode for the planet. IMO it leads to massive disparities of wealth and abuses of power. We don't notice this sooo much as we're (mostly) nice, white people in a safe country. I don't think you can conflate social progress since the 1960s with economic liberalism - maybe more to do with forces unleashed during WWII perhaps? There is more than enough on this planet for everyone to enjoy a roof over their heads, clean water, sanitation, clothing, a meal on their table and a decent education. The reason this does not happen is because of the prevailing economic model. Re: gold standard - we're way beyond that now. This is 19th century thinking. Everyone plays fast and loose... In the Middle Ages alchemists attempted to turn lead in to gold. Now they use light and numbers on a computer screen. It isn't actual wealth - it's what people think it's worth. And it creates greed. And guess what? The wheels almost came off in 2008 and are still grinding on for some unlucky souls - eg Greeks. | |||
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"Being liberal actually means letting everybody or thing do as they please with minimal intervention or regulation from the state. Hence the permissive society, de criminalisation of homosexuality, removal of people on lower pay from income tax and, yes, only taxing corporations and the rich at a rate that will actually increase tax revenues not cripple them. As for the Gold Standard, I'm not advocating it I'm simply stating that it's part of the full supply side economic model and wondering whether the fact that, when people claim to be following the model but are in fact only following part of it, might be the reason why we're in the current mess we're in. Economic liberalism is the prevailing philosophical mode for the planet. IMO it leads to massive disparities of wealth and abuses of power. We don't notice this sooo much as we're (mostly) nice, white people in a safe country. I don't think you can conflate social progress since the 1960s with economic liberalism - maybe more to do with forces unleashed during WWII perhaps? There is more than enough on this planet for everyone to enjoy a roof over their heads, clean water, sanitation, clothing, a meal on their table and a decent education. The reason this does not happen is because of the prevailing economic model. Re: gold standard - we're way beyond that now. This is 19th century thinking. Everyone plays fast and loose... In the Middle Ages alchemists attempted to turn lead in to gold. Now they use light and numbers on a computer screen. It isn't actual wealth - it's what people think it's worth. And it creates greed. And guess what? The wheels almost came off in 2008 and are still grinding on for some unlucky souls - eg Greeks. " Economic liberalism is the ideological belief that economies should be organised for the benefit of the individual, meaning that the greatest possible number of economic decisions should be made by individuals and not by collective institutions or organisations such as the state. To try and remove Liberal economic ideals from the whole Liberal agenda is just ridicules. If you are liberal than you have to agree with the full liberal idea that individuals are best left to run their own affairs with minimal intervention from collectives such as the state. This applies as much to the economy as it does to any other part of life, such as social progress. To try and argue that Liberal Economic ideas are responsible for massive discrepancies in wealth is simply to ignore the history of last 150 years of steadily more progressive liberal democracy and liberal ideology that the world has experienced since liberalism started to gain the upper hand over authoritarianism and spiritualism. I don’t think that many, if they look back unbiasedly, could argue that the discrepancies in wealth now are bigger than they were 100, 150 or 200 years ago. So, while you criticise the idea of Liberal economics, against the historic evidence, you don’t actually come up with a better model that actually works. If you have one then please share it with us. | |||
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"It is not uncommon for countries to get their finances wrong. Greece needs to be allowed to fail and leave the EU. Once out, it can start to repair its economy and use its own currency again. "I think Greece should leave the Euro (if nothing else they could save having to print Eypo on every note) but there is no reason why should have to leave the EU. | |||
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"Economic liberalism is the ideological belief that economies should be organised for the benefit of the individual, meaning that the greatest possible number of economic decisions should be made by individuals and not by collective institutions or organisations such as the state. To try and remove Liberal economic ideals from the whole Liberal agenda is just ridicules. If you are liberal than you have to agree with the full liberal idea that individuals are best left to run their own affairs with minimal intervention from collectives such as the state. This applies as much to the economy as it does to any other part of life, such as social progress. To try and argue that Liberal Economic ideas are responsible for massive discrepancies in wealth is simply to ignore the history of last 150 years of steadily more progressive liberal democracy and liberal ideology that the world has experienced since liberalism started to gain the upper hand over authoritarianism and spiritualism. I don’t think that many, if they look back unbiasedly, could argue that the discrepancies in wealth now are bigger than they were 100, 150 or 200 years ago. So, while you criticise the idea of Liberal economics, against the historic evidence, you don’t actually come up with a better model that actually works. If you have one then please share it with us. " Some most interesting points! Here we gooo... . . a) "belief that economics should be organised for the benefit of the individual" - no, we have a bunch of corporations and interests running things for their own benefit - not individuals. Tell me I'm wrong. . . b) "To try and remove Liberal economic ideals from the whole Liberal agenda is just ridicules." Stretching back to Adam Smith, Economic Liberalism (E.L.) has had 250 or so years to sort out disparity and create wealth for all. Funnily enough it didn't. Britain might have had the world's greatest empire or largest navy but school kids still went barefoot. So, liberal for whom? The most even distribution of wealth and opportunity occurred in the Britain only *after* WWII, starting with the Labour g'ment of Attlee. E.L. has had long enough to prove it worth and has not - except for a few. . . c) Social change... In the second half of the 1960s, young people began to revolt against the conservative norms of the time, as well as remove themselves from mainstream liberalism, in particular the high level of materialism which was so common during the era. This created a "counterculture" that sparked a social revolution throughout much of the Western world. It began in the US as a reaction against social conformity of the 1950s, and the g'ment's 'intervention' in Vietnam. The youth involved in the popular social aspects of the movement became known as hippies. These groups created a movement toward liberation in society, including the sexual revolution, questioning authority and government, and demanding more freedoms and rights for women and minorities. This is unconnected to E.L. . . d) Now we are in an era of 'neo-liberalism' - Fukayama's (not-so) 'End of History' - where everything is supposed to keep on growing and getting better, and which is steadily chipping away at the social gains of the last 60 years. E.L., philosophised by Friedman and the Chicago school and as espoused by Thatcher & Reagan in the 1980s, created privatization, fiscal austerity, deregulation, free trade, and reductions in government spending in order to enhance the role of the private sector in the economy. There are serious arguments to be made against each of these. It boils down to I'm all right Jack and Devil take the hindmost. Profit. Greed. Control. Power. Do you like the NHS? - 'cos it's completely against the ideals of E.L. . . The bottom line is that E.L. is an iniquitous economic mode predicated on unending growth, the planet is a 'closed system' presently, and has finite resources. One, or the other, will eventually have to give. . . When it comes to an alternative... . . I humbly suggest there is no prospect for real change until things get much worse - as they have done in Greece and what this convo is supposed to be about... . . Gil Scott-Heron - The Revolution Will Not Be Televised www.youtube.com/watch?v=qGaoXAwl9kw . . This is the longest post I've ever written! | |||
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"I really wish the media would stop trying to make "grexit" and "brexit" happen. It's two fucking short words, they don't need to be made into a clunky portmanteau. That is all." I always thought a portmanteau was a kind of coat rack. Never relised till now that it's actually the correct English term for a Frankenword! (Google rules! ) | |||
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"I really wish the media would stop trying to make "grexit" and "brexit" happen. It's two fucking short words, they don't need to be made into a clunky portmanteau. That is all. I always thought a portmanteau was a kind of coat rack. Never relised till now that it's actually the correct English term for a Frankenword! (Google rules! )"Since I don't like the artificial and jarring blending of two words, I don't use frankenword either | |||
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"I really wish the media would stop trying to make "grexit" and "brexit" happen. It's two fucking short words, they don't need to be made into a clunky portmanteau. That is all. I always thought a portmanteau was a kind of coat rack. Never relised till now that it's actually the correct English term for a Frankenword! (Google rules! )
Since I don't like the artificial and jarring blending of two words, I don't use frankenword either "How does this affect my daily titwank | |||
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"I really wish the media would stop trying to make "grexit" and "brexit" happen. It's two fucking short words, they don't need to be made into a clunky portmanteau. That is all. I always thought a portmanteau was a kind of coat rack. Never relised till now that it's actually the correct English term for a Frankenword! (Google rules! )
Since I don't like the artificial and jarring blending of two words, I don't use frankenword either
How does this affect my daily titwank"Titwank is fine because it's a compound. | |||
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"Robert mundell....grrr names and old age! According to Mundell's model there are 4 requirements for a successful monetary union. They are:- 1) Free movement of labour. 2) Full capital mobility including price and wage flexibility. 3) Automatic fiscal transfers between richer and poorer areas. 4) Coordinated business cycled. As far as I can see none of these 4 basic criteria exist between Germany and Greece, indeed I'd say they don't expect between the whole of Northern Europe and Southern Europe. I hardly think it's fair to blame the guy who set out how it should be done probably when if fails because it wasn't. . Read some of his books Monetary agenda for the world economy and building a new Europe are two good ones to start with!. He's a very clever guy but you get the feeling when reading anything by him how genuinely unconcerned he is about human welfare!. His whole philosophy about monetary union was forcing countries into structural reform.. Supply side economists do my tits in to be frank
I don't think I've got the time to read his whole book right now but..
Being basically an economic liberal I like the idea of lower taxes and the justification that it actually leads to higher returns. Also the principle that money should have a direct and fixed relationship with something like gold would definitely solve the fractional reserve lending problem.
Whether supply leads demand or demand leads supply is probably well above my ability to fully understand and therefore comment.
Maybe the real problem here is, yet again, politician are willing to do the easy stuff, (cut taxes) but are not willing to follow through with the hard stuff (returning to the Gold Standard).". Nobody mention the laffer curve or he that can't be said will be along any minute .
He loves that curve!
Of course laffer wrote it on a napkin in five minutes on the way to a meeting with Reagan and its never been proved to have truth to it whatsoever.
In fact supply side economists always argue that but all historic data proves the opposite!
A high CT tax for instance was meant and did for a long period mean that companies pushed profit into R&D and expansion to avoid the tax!... I mean high levels of R&D, employing people, expansion and buying business infrastructure... What a terrible idea | |||
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"Economic liberalism is the ideological belief that economies should be organised for the benefit of the individual, meaning that the greatest possible number of economic decisions should be made by individuals and not by collective institutions or organisations such as the state. To try and remove Liberal economic ideals from the whole Liberal agenda is just ridicules. If you are liberal than you have to agree with the full liberal idea that individuals are best left to run their own affairs with minimal intervention from collectives such as the state. This applies as much to the economy as it does to any other part of life, such as social progress. To try and argue that Liberal Economic ideas are responsible for massive discrepancies in wealth is simply to ignore the history of last 150 years of steadily more progressive liberal democracy and liberal ideology that the world has experienced since liberalism started to gain the upper hand over authoritarianism and spiritualism. I don’t think that many, if they look back unbiasedly, could argue that the discrepancies in wealth now are bigger than they were 100, 150 or 200 years ago. So, while you criticise the idea of Liberal economics, against the historic evidence, you don’t actually come up with a better model that actually works. If you have one then please share it with us. Some most interesting points! Here we gooo... . . a) "Belief that economics should be organised for the benefit of the individual" - no, we have a bunch of corporations and interests running things for their own benefit - not individuals. Tell me I'm wrong. " The definition of liberalism is that the individual should be allowed to do what they feel is best with minimum intervention from the ANY collective or organisation. If what you see is ‘a bunch of corporations and interests (in other words a collective) running things for their own benefit then that’s simply not Liberal economics. Economic liberalism accepts government intervention in order to remove private monopoly and consortiums as this is considered to limit the decision of the individuals. Economic liberalism does favor markets unfettered by the government but maintains that the state has a legitimate role in providing for the public good and limiting the excesses of any collective, including private corporations. " . b) "To try and remove Liberal economic ideals from the whole Liberal agenda is just ridicules." Stretching back to Adam Smith, Economic Liberalism (E.L.) has had 250 or so years to sort out disparity and create wealth for all. Funnily enough it didn't. Britain might have had the world's greatest empire or largest navy but school kids still went barefoot. " The creation of Empires, or indeed any trading block that excludes others from outside, has far more to with economic mercantilism than economic liberalism. Although we have been steadily heading towards a more Liberal economic model for the last 150 years, slowly replacing the more mercantile model we had before that, it’s questionable if we have actually reached a truly Liberal model even now. And, if what you say about private corporations and interests is true then we definitely have not. " The most even distribution of wealth and opportunity occurred in the Britain only *after* WWII, starting with the Labour g'ment of Attlee. E.L. has had long enough to prove it worth and has not - except for a few. " It’s not much use having an even distribution of wealth in a collective that is getting ever poorer. And that was the reality of the Attlee government after the war, as it is and was for most socialist models. It is the economic actions of individuals based largely on their own self-interest that produces wealth. Allowing individuals to act with only limited and necessary restrictions, to provide a minimum standard of justice, produce the best results for all. " c) Social change... In the second half of the 1960s, young people began to revolt against the conservative norms of the time, as well as remove themselves from mainstream liberalism, in particular the high level of materialism which was so common during the era. This created a "counterculture" that sparked a social revolution throughout much of the Western world. It began in the US as a reaction against social conformity of the 1950s, and the g'ment's 'intervention' in Vietnam. The youth involved in the popular social aspects of the movement became known as hippies. These groups created a movement toward liberation in society, including the sexual revolution, questioning authority and government, and demanding more freedoms and rights for women and minorities. This is unconnected to E.L. . " We could argue about whether the social liberalisation in the 1960s was caused by; the war, was simply hastened by the war or would have happened regardless, till the cows come home. What can’t be argued with is that social liberalisation is part of the wider Liberal movement in society that has been ongoing for over 150 years and includes one man one vote, votes for women, election by secret ballot, removal of patronage in the ‘rotten boroughs’, introduction of workers (individuals) rights, education of the full populace, abolition of slavery and many other things that have steadily but surly moved real power out of the hands of a collective few and into the hands of the individual. " . d) Now we are in an era of 'neo-liberalism' - Fukayama's (not-so) 'End of History' - where everything is supposed to keep on growing and getting better, and which is steadily chipping away at the social gains of the last 60 years. E.L., philosophised by Friedman and the Chicago school and as espoused by Thatcher & Reagan in the 1980s, created privatization, fiscal austerity, deregulation, free trade, and reductions in government spending in order to enhance the role of the private sector in the economy. There are serious arguments to be made against each of these. It boils down to I'm all right Jack and Devil take the hindmost. Profit. Greed. Control. Power. " Privatisation, deregulation, free trade and reductions in government spending are all good things and quite definitely on the liberal agenda of taking power away from the collective (in this case the state) and giving it to the individual. However I would not use either Thatcher or Reagan as good examples of true liberalism both showed quite definite tendencies towards authoritarianism and in the case of Reagan spiritualism (in the broadest sense of the word) to. As I pointed out in b) above a liberal economic model, whilst being in favour of deregulation, is not opposed to necessary regulation to provide a minimum standard of justice for the individual. " Do you like the NHS? - 'cos it's completely against the ideals of E.L. " I like the idea of NHS in as far as health should be provided free at the point of need but it does not actually deliver that for all anyway. I dislike the fact that a collective organisation decides what treatments are available to the individual and if they decide that the individual is not worth the cost of the treatment the individual does not get it. " The bottom line is that E.L. is an iniquitous economic mode predicated on unending growth, the planet is a 'closed system' presently, and has finite resources. One, or the other, will eventually have to give. . . When it comes to an alternative... . . I humbly suggest there is no prospect for real change until things get much worse - as they have done in Greece and what this convo is supposed to be about... . . Gil Scott-Heron - The Revolution Will Not Be Televised www.youtube.com/watch?v=qGaoXAwl9kw . . This is the longest post I've ever written! " It might have been long but, although I don’t agree with a lot of it, it’s reasonably made and totally avoided any personal insults so well worth reading. But I reckon at the end of the day or in over words, you still can’t think of a better model. | |||
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"Robert mundell....grrr names and old age! According to Mundell's model there are 4 requirements for a successful monetary union. They are:- 1) Free movement of labour. 2) Full capital mobility including price and wage flexibility. 3) Automatic fiscal transfers between richer and poorer areas. 4) Coordinated business cycled. As far as I can see none of these 4 basic criteria exist between Germany and Greece, indeed I'd say they don't expect between the whole of Northern Europe and Southern Europe. I hardly think it's fair to blame the guy who set out how it should be done probably when if fails because it wasn't. . Read some of his books Monetary agenda for the world economy and building a new Europe are two good ones to start with!. He's a very clever guy but you get the feeling when reading anything by him how genuinely unconcerned he is about human welfare!. His whole philosophy about monetary union was forcing countries into structural reform.. Supply side economists do my tits in to be frank
I don't think I've got the time to read his whole book right now but..
Being basically an economic liberal I like the idea of lower taxes and the justification that it actually leads to higher returns. Also the principle that money should have a direct and fixed relationship with something like gold would definitely solve the fractional reserve lending problem.
Whether supply leads demand or demand leads supply is probably well above my ability to fully understand and therefore comment.
Maybe the real problem here is, yet again, politician are willing to do the easy stuff, (cut taxes) but are not willing to follow through with the hard stuff (returning to the Gold Standard)..
Nobody mention the laffer curve or he that can't be said will be along any minute .
He loves that curve!
Of course laffer wrote it on a napkin in five minutes on the way to a meeting with Reagan and its never been proved to have truth to it whatsoever.
In fact supply side economists always argue that but all historic data proves the opposite!
A high CT tax for instance was meant and did for a long period mean that companies pushed profit into R&D and expansion to avoid the tax!... I mean high levels of R&D, employing people, expansion and buying business infrastructure... What a terrible idea "'laffer curve '!! I was tempted but decided to leave that discusion for amohter day (although I have sort of touched on the basic idea).; | |||
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Thank God I cashed in all my spare cash into red wine! Huzzah. I'm off to the cellar to cause a run on it  | |||
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"Greek PM says the country are going to have a referendum on July 5th on whether to accept the deal on the table and "will accept the decision on greek people" this isn't going to end well... i bet its a "STFU"" My guess is that the the writing is now on the wall and Greek banks will not open on Monday, despite D Day being Tuesday (Wednesday morning). This is bad for Europe but worse for Greece. The alternative of giving in to Greece would simply have led to a worse situation on the horizon with Spain, Italy and Portugal also looking for forgiveness. Bottom line is fuck off Greece for now. Unfortunately for the EU, if it lasts that long - Greece will eventually recover and become better as a resultof being fucked off... Then what (for the EU)- Game over? | |||
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"Greek PM says the country are going to have a referendum on July 5th on whether to accept the deal on the table and "will accept the decision on greek people" this isn't going to end well... i bet its a "STFU"" How will this work if the loan repayment is due on 30 June? If they default on Tuesday and vote a few days later will be irrelevant anyway. | |||
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"Greek PM says the country are going to have a referendum on July 5th on whether to accept the deal on the table and "will accept the decision on greek people" this isn't going to end well... i bet its a "STFU" How will this work if the loan repayment is due on 30 June? If they default on Tuesday and vote a few days later will be irrelevant anyway." the said they will ask for a could of days extension.... (the IMF would look really bad if they said no!) so it would not be a technical default as such... they would be in arrears as such, and would get the money if greece voted for the package however... I cant see where the ecb is going to extend the credit for greek banks now if it likely the people are going to say no next sunday... actually... the ecb could almost use this as a "this is going to be like if you don't vote yes next sunday" look into the future.... I still the greeks think the russians are going to bail them out if do say no | |||
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"Greek PM says the country are going to have a referendum on July 5th on whether to accept the deal on the table and "will accept the decision on greek people" this isn't going to end well... i bet its a "STFU" How will this work if the loan repayment is due on 30 June? If they default on Tuesday and vote a few days later will be irrelevant anyway." I'm sure I recall reading that the loan repayment not being made wouldn't be classed as a default until 30 days had after 30th June, although that's its due date. | |||
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"Looks like a swerve by Tsipras to keep his job.." of course it is... because if the vote goes his way he can say he was fighting for the greek people.... and if it doesn't he can say he was listening to the greek people...... its the last roll of a desperate person... p.s, the germans are pissed and have said no more money will be leant to greece after tuesday.... | |||
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"Looks like a swerve by Tsipras to keep his job.. of course it is... because if the vote goes his way he can say he was fighting for the greek people.... and if it doesn't he can say he was listening to the greek people...... its the last roll of a desperate person... p.s, the germans are pissed and have said no more money will be leant to greece after tuesday.... " "The Germans are pissed" has to be the understatement of the year. I live there and they are seriously hopping mad, and Merkel knows it. | |||
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"Looks like a swerve by Tsipras to keep his job.. of course it is... because if the vote goes his way he can say he was fighting for the greek people.... and if it doesn't he can say he was listening to the greek people...... its the last roll of a desperate person... p.s, the germans are pissed and have said no more money will be leant to greece after tuesday.... "The Germans are pissed" has to be the understatement of the year. I live there and they are seriously hopping mad, and Merkel knows it." Cant really blame them tbh, its looking like a bit of a shambles again from the Greeks regardless of whichever party is in power.. they may be better off just leaving but maybe they are messing about with the IMF, EU etc because they want to be pushed out..? | |||
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"here is the question that will be on the greek referendum: "Do citizens reject the proposal of the three institutions?" so "yes" would be.....STFU!! and "no" would be take the deal and the bailout interesting that they used the word "reject" rather that "accept".... because thats leading people to the way the government wants the vote to go (it is always easier to argue a yes side of a vote....) " . Don't worry Dave will use the exact same technique in our euro referendum | |||
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"Greek PM says the country are going to have a referendum on July 5th on whether to accept the deal on the table and "will accept the decision on greek people" this isn't going to end well... i bet its a "STFU" How will this work if the loan repayment is due on 30 June? If they default on Tuesday and vote a few days later will be irrelevant anyway. the said they will ask for a could of days extension.... (the IMF would look really bad if they said no!) so it would not be a technical default as such... they would be in arrears as such, and would get the money if greece voted for the package however... I cant see where the ecb is going to extend the credit for greek banks now if it likely the people are going to say no next sunday... actually... the ecb could almost use this as a "this is going to be like if you don't vote yes next sunday" look into the future.... I still the greeks think the russians are going to bail them out if do say no" . The ecb can say what they like, there up to their necks in debt as much as Greece is. This whole thing is a fucking joke, it's not aimed at bailing out Greece, it's aimed at bailing out financial markets!, the knock on effects of a Greek bankruptcy will be felt far and wide.... Including all your pensions, but don't worry you can all carry on blaming brown and Osborne for your woes... Not! | |||
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"Looks like a swerve by Tsipras to keep his job.. of course it is... because if the vote goes his way he can say he was fighting for the greek people.... and if it doesn't he can say he was listening to the greek people...... its the last roll of a desperate person... p.s, the germans are pissed and have said no more money will be leant to greece after tuesday.... "The Germans are pissed" has to be the understatement of the year. I live there and they are seriously hopping mad, and Merkel knows it." . The Germans have made a fucking killing since 1999 from having Greece and all the other basket case economies in their little monetary union. Good times don't last forever and sooner or later somebody has to pay the piper. I like the Germans, I like the fact their long term planners and that they see that little further along the horizon but lets face facts there currency should be triple what it is, they are in effect manipulating it at the Greek peoples expense and causing untold suffering to millions, whether that be through bullets and bombs or credit and debit | |||
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"So a deal has been put on the table for Greece and now they decide whether to accept, a no vote would lead to an EU exit? I haven't followed any of this hence me asking" . No a no vote would mean they will default on their outstanding debt and will be forced to leave the euro and probably the eu or another package would have to be offered, the ecb(European central bank) have been bailing out Greek banks for years now(the Greek banks are in effect getting their money from the ecb as their technically insolvent like almost every other bank in the world I'd add)... That's private debt not not Greek public debt who've been receiving bailouts from the troika (EU,ecb and IMF). So the vote is claiming to be about bailing out Greece the country but in reality is actually about bailing out Greece the financial market.... Which really Is about bailing out our own financial markets who to put it mildly.... Aren't as Rosie as you might be lead to believe | |||
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"Looks like a swerve by Tsipras to keep his job.. of course it is... because if the vote goes his way he can say he was fighting for the greek people.... and if it doesn't he can say he was listening to the greek people...... its the last roll of a desperate person... p.s, the germans are pissed and have said no more money will be leant to greece after tuesday.... " A more honest question would be "Should we accept this latest deal, or leave the Euro?" The Greek people have been demanding to stay in, but refuse to accept the price that comes with it. That said, it's right about Germany: when Greece first joined and was consequently flush with cash, it was all spent on German exports. I don't recall Germany complaining then...
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"Looks like a swerve by Tsipras to keep his job.. of course it is... because if the vote goes his way he can say he was fighting for the greek people.... and if it doesn't he can say he was listening to the greek people...... its the last roll of a desperate person... p.s, the germans are pissed and have said no more money will be leant to greece after tuesday.... A more honest question would be "Should we accept this latest deal, or leave the Euro?" The Greek people have been demanding to stay in, but refuse to accept the price that comes with it. That said, it's right about Germany: when Greece first joined and was consequently flush with cash, it was all spent on German exports. I don't recall Germany complaining then...
Mr ddc". And more to the point exports that were cheaper than they should have been because having Greece and Spain and Portugal and Ireland tied to their currency meant it was lower than what it should have been and because those countries were tied to good counties like Holland and Germany and France the shit ones borrowed at a much lower rate, meaning they could take on much more debt than they could naturally afford to! Like any deal, there's winners and losers | |||
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"Greek PM says the country are going to have a referendum on July 5th on whether to accept the deal on the table and "will accept the decision on greek people" this isn't going to end well... i bet its a "STFU" How will this work if the loan repayment is due on 30 June? If they default on Tuesday and vote a few days later will be irrelevant anyway. I'm sure I recall reading that the loan repayment not being made wouldn't be classed as a default until 30 days had after 30th June, although that's its due date. " They will be in default as soon as they don't pay. However, most loan agreements will allow a remedy period and this is probably in place here. Either way it isn't good as Greece simply doesn't have the money to pay, and its bluff has been well and truly called. | |||
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" How will this work if the loan repayment is due on 30 June? If they default on Tuesday and vote a few days later will be irrelevant anyway. I'm sure I recall reading that the loan repayment not being made wouldn't be classed as a default until 30 days had after 30th June, although that's its due date. "
And it certainly looks as if they're going to push it right to the last possible minute. I'm sure the sky won't really fall in tomorrow (as the papers would have us believe) and we still have a few more weeks of macho brinkmanship.
In the end my money is still on it being sorted out via a typical EU fudge
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" Having followed the situation for months now, i have to say, IMHO the conduct of the Greek PM and Finance Ministers has been deplorable. They don't deserve a cent more. Yes, i appreciate it harms the millions of ordinary Greeks but it's a hard lesson to be more careful of who you vote for, are persuaded by, are deceived by come election time. " Viewed from our side I'd agree, but viewed from theirs, their dogged intransigence already has a better deal on the table than when they were elected, and I suspect there's a bit more to screw out of the Germans yet. Besides, it helps us: to lose one EU member may be regarded as a misfortune, Mrs Merkle, but to lose two.... | |||
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"Will be interesting to see what happens tomorrow. I can't see the Greek banks opening." I thought this on Friday as I said further up the thread. In fact this now seems to be case according to the BBC. | |||
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"Will be interesting to see what happens tomorrow. I can't see the Greek banks opening. I thought this on Friday as I said further up the thread. In fact this now seems to be case according to the BBC." Banks closed until 6 July, it is going to be carnage. | |||
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"Have the Greeks actually said that they can't / won't pay what will be owed on Tuesday? Bearing in mind what is going on, they might feel it prudent to hang on to it (if they have it) but it would not surprise me if they paid it and called bluff on the EU/ECB/IMF. Tsiparas and Vaifoukas are capable of pulling off the unexpected." They don't appear to be saying much! But with no support from the ECB to fund the Greek banks I can't imagine they will have any cash to pay. | |||
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"Will be interesting to see what happens tomorrow. I can't see the Greek banks opening. I thought this on Friday as I said further up the thread. In fact this now seems to be case according to the BBC. Banks closed until 6 July, it is going to be carnage. " the more interesting thing is that ATM's will also be closed tomorrow, and then from Tuesday they will be limited so the maximum any person can take out is 60 euros a day....... that is an incredibly small amount... and says they have basically run out of money!!! | |||
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"Will be interesting to see what happens tomorrow. I can't see the Greek banks opening. I thought this on Friday as I said further up the thread. In fact this now seems to be case according to the BBC. Banks closed until 6 July, it is going to be carnage. the more interesting thing is that ATM's will also be closed tomorrow, and then from Tuesday they will be limited so the maximum any person can take out is 60 euros a day....... that is an incredibly small amount... and says they have basically run out of money!!! " The shit will really hit the fan when thet don't have the cash to pay their public service workers. | |||
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"Will be interesting to see what happens tomorrow. I can't see the Greek banks opening. I thought this on Friday as I said further up the thread. In fact this now seems to be case according to the BBC. Banks closed until 6 July, it is going to be carnage. the more interesting thing is that ATM's will also be closed tomorrow, and then from Tuesday they will be limited so the maximum any person can take out is 60 euros a day....... that is an incredibly small amount... and says they have basically run out of money!!! " . The ecb have been funding the Greek banks for 5 years!!! How much are they in the hole for? To be fair this could be the UK in... Any given day! I'm either responsible for the losses in which case I want the profit or I'm not getting the profit and I shouldn't be responsible for the losses! Take your cronie capitalism and fuck off..... I think that's the Greek response | |||
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" They'll be fine, super. Look how many new immigrants they're getting per day." Yeah.. Fair Point - If they can Afford to Pay the supposed 6K to hitch a Boat There via the Smugglers.. Then They Must Be Loaded !!!  | |||
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" They'll be fine, super. Look how many new immigrants they're getting per day. Yeah.. Fair Point - If they can Afford to Pay the supposed 6K to hitch a Boat There via the Smugglers.. Then They Must Be Loaded !!! "Was thinking more on the lines of it being "great, absolutely wonderful" for the British economy it could maybe also help the Greeks out. Not saying myself that politicos like N.Clegg have it right though. | |||
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"Will be interesting to see what happens tomorrow. I can't see the Greek banks opening. I thought this on Friday as I said further up the thread. In fact this now seems to be case according to the BBC. Banks closed until 6 July, it is going to be carnage. the more interesting thing is that ATM's will also be closed tomorrow, and then from Tuesday they will be limited so the maximum any person can take out is 60 euros a day....... that is an incredibly small amount... and says they have basically run out of money!!! " They pretty much have run out of money. I wouldn't be too surprised if the banks re-open next week with Drachmas. | |||
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"Will be interesting to see what happens tomorrow. I can't see the Greek banks opening. I thought this on Friday as I said further up the thread. In fact this now seems to be case according to the BBC. Banks closed until 6 July, it is going to be carnage. the more interesting thing is that ATM's will also be closed tomorrow, and then from Tuesday they will be limited so the maximum any person can take out is 60 euros a day....... that is an incredibly small amount... and says they have basically run out of money!!! They pretty much have run out of money. I wouldn't be too surprised if the banks re-open next week with Drachmas." Good message this morning to the other numpty alternative political parties that have cropped up in Southern Europe. Podemos?.... Uhhhh, No Podemos. | |||
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" Good message this morning to the other numpty alternative political parties that have cropped up in Southern Europe. Podemos?.... Uhhhh, No Podemos." well i think everyone is going to look at greece (spain,portugal and italy especially) and see the consequences.... if greece comes out the other side well... the others will bolt!!! if greece doesn't those governments are going to push hard and say they could be the next greece if they don't continue the path.... but it is fascinating... the greek government are going to push for the "STFU" vote.... but if the people vote the other way after a week of this... i think the greek government will call an election | |||
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" Good message this morning to the other numpty alternative political parties that have cropped up in Southern Europe. Podemos?.... Uhhhh, No Podemos. well i think everyone is going to look at greece (spain,portugal and italy especially) and see the consequences.... if greece comes out the other side well... the others will bolt!!! if greece doesn't those governments are going to push hard and say they could be the next greece if they don't continue the path.... but it is fascinating... the greek government are going to push for the "STFU" vote.... but if the people vote the other way after a week of this... i think the greek government will call an election" I think the referendum will turn out to be a "back me or sack me" vote. Tsipras is pushing for them to reject the EU deal but if the Greek people vote to accept then his position will be untenable. As for "Podemos" I think the Spanish will have to look long and hard at the chaos in Greece before voting for a party that will lead them down the same road. But yes. Very interesting times ahead. | |||
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"i think the wording coming out of a lot of the european capitals has been interest where the greek government are trying to bill this as a vote on this particular package.... whereas France, Germany, Italy and now the chancellor have said this is a vote on the Euro its been fun watching the political boxing between athens and brussels.... p.s government advice for anyone going to greece is to now take enough euros in cash to cover everything including emergencies..... " . To right it's a vote on the euro! And if they have any sense at all there'll vote to be in charge of their own destiny for better or worse! Personally I think the Greek pm has done the right thing and put the big decision in the hands of the people, it's far too big for him to make. | |||
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"Looks like a swerve by Tsipras to keep his job.. of course it is... because if the vote goes his way he can say he was fighting for the greek people.... and if it doesn't he can say he was listening to the greek people...... its the last roll of a desperate person... p.s, the germans are pissed and have said no more money will be leant to greece after tuesday.... "The Germans are pissed" has to be the understatement of the year. I live there and they are seriously hopping mad, and Merkel knows it." And yet the Germans have increased their trade by up to an estimated 15% as a direct result of introduction of the Euro. Seems to me that the Germans want the benefits of a currency union but are not willing to pay the price. In the long run Germany will lose a lot more than Greece if the Euro either partially or totally collapses. For both Greece and Germany this whole thing has been like turkeys voting for Christmas. | |||
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" Having followed the situation for months now, i have to say, IMHO the conduct of the Greek PM and Finance Ministers has been deplorable. They don't deserve a cent more. Yes, i appreciate it harms the millions of ordinary Greeks but it's a hard lesson to be more careful of who you vote for, are persuaded by, are deceived by come election time. " I'm inclined to agree with this comment to! | |||
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" Having followed the situation for months now, i have to say, IMHO the conduct of the Greek PM and Finance Ministers has been deplorable. They don't deserve a cent more. Yes, i appreciate it harms the millions of ordinary Greeks but it's a hard lesson to be more careful of who you vote for, are persuaded by, are deceived by come election time" A 'hard lesson'? Have you actually been to mainland Greece recently and seen with your own eyes how hard this 'lesson' is? I say, fuck the Troika. Let Greece default and leave the Euro. There will be short term chaos but it will hurt the EU and Euro harder in the long-term. | |||
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" ...to be more careful of who you vote for, are persuaded by, are deceived by come election time" Oh, and while I'm on my high horse, speaking of being careful whom you vote for... Any bugger here vote Conservative at the last election? | |||
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"OK europhiles! Time to put your money where your mouth is." Besides, thinking about it, we put our money where our mouths were a few years ago. Now's the time to see if we'll ever get it back
I, for one, am not persuaded by the latest "Stuff you, we're not going to pay back our debts. Now, please could someone lend us a little more?"
Still, you have to admire the optimism
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" ...to be more careful of who you vote for, are persuaded by, are deceived by come election time Oh, and while I'm on my high horse, speaking of being careful whom you vote for... Any bugger here vote Conservative at the last election?" Yes me | |||
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"........ I say, fuck the Troika. Let Greece default and leave the Euro. There will be short term chaos but it will hurt the EU and Euro harder in the long-term. " You are not adopting the Greek line though are you? Their attitude is "fuck the Troika", but they still want to be part of the Eurozone and of course the EU. Tsipiras and Varifoukas are immature because they just do not understand the sentiment in the rest of Europe. They may "think" that their Socialist policies are different to everything that has gone before and that their way will be the way to deliver Greece out of its mess. Unfortunately they have no credible plan to show that their way is going to be any different to any previous Greek government and they just need to accept that the "Troika" has heard it all before and if they want credibility thaen they need to work within the framework of what they inherited and not think that they can wipe the slate clean by "writing off debt and ending austerity." | |||
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"OK europhiles! Time to put your money where your mouth is. Besides, thinking about it, we put our money where our mouths were a few years ago. Now's the time to see if we'll ever get it back
I, for one, am not persuaded by the latest "Stuff you, we're not going to pay back our debts. Now, please could someone lend us a little more?"
Still, you have to admire the optimism
"and this proposal could have been given at the beginning of the year... i think it is interesting that Tsipras is the one who is beginning to blink here...looks like the rest of the eurogroup are coming up with a plan b..... where greeks "plan b" russia, are beginning to distance themselves..... the longer you see greeks queueing outside banks... the tighter the noose is on the greek government as the italian pm said yesterday, "how can i say to italian people who retire at 67, to prop up greek pensioners who retire at 60/62" | |||
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"........ I say, fuck the Troika. Let Greece default and leave the Euro. There will be short term chaos but it will hurt the EU and Euro harder in the long-term. You are not adopting the Greek line though are you? Their attitude is "fuck the Troika", but they still want to be part of the Eurozone and of course the EU. Tsipiras and Varifoukas are immature because they just do not understand the sentiment in the rest of Europe. They may "think" that their Socialist policies are different to everything that has gone before and that their way will be the way to deliver Greece out of its mess. Unfortunately they have no credible plan to show that their way is going to be any different to any previous Greek government and they just need to accept that the "Troika" has heard it all before and if they want credibility thaen they need to work within the framework of what they inherited and not think that they can wipe the slate clean by "writing off debt and ending austerity."" . The trouble with that thinking is Look at the last five years of Greek GDP. The troika keep saying follow are plans we'll give you money and we forecast x amount of better growth if you do.... So the Greeks keep implementing this troika enforced austerity that they say will gain them this supposed growth..... But every year for five years there gdp plummets 7% downwards Meaning there debt keeps getting more unpayable?. This isn't about Greek reform or austerity to the troika it's about debt management of the finance industry.... Where's the reform of the lenders????? | |||
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"OK europhiles! Time to put your money where your mouth is. Besides, thinking about it, we put our money where our mouths were a few years ago. Now's the time to see if we'll ever get it back
I, for one, am not persuaded by the latest "Stuff you, we're not going to pay back our debts. Now, please could someone lend us a little more?"
Still, you have to admire the optimism
and this proposal could have been given at the beginning of the year...
i think it is interesting that Tsipras is the one who is beginning to blink here...looks like the rest of the eurogroup are coming up with a plan b..... where greeks "plan b" russia, are beginning to distance themselves.....
the longer you see greeks queueing outside banks... the tighter the noose is on the greek government
as the italian pm said yesterday, "how can i say to italian people who retire at 67, to prop up greek pensioners who retire at 60/62"". They might retire earlier than most but they have some of the smallest pensions in Europe as well! Has anyone actually been to Greece and seen these mythical well living pensioners... Everybody I know who's been say how very austere lives the Greeks lead | |||
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" ...to be more careful of who you vote for, are persuaded by, are deceived by come election time Oh, and while I'm on my high horse, speaking of being careful whom you vote for... Any bugger here vote Conservative at the last election?" I would reckon probably about 36%, just like the rest of the country. | |||
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" . Any bugger here vote Conservative at the last election? I would reckon probably about 36%, just like the rest of the country." Surely they only have their butler's on here arranging their meets. I can't believe any self-respecting Tory would have time spare from counting their money to be on a site like this. | |||
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Also perhaps national debts shouldn't have interest added to them. They should just be fixed figures that track inflation. After all... who the heck is all this interest going to? | |||
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"Looks like the Greeks have voted overwhelmingly to stick 2 fingers up to the EU. Interesting times ahead. I do wonder what the consequences will be when the banks ran out of money this week." If I was Merkel I would say... "well if the Greeks can have a referendum to their people on whether to accept the deal, I would give the German population a referendum on whether we should lend the greeks any more money!" | |||
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