FabSwingers.com forum: Cameron's EU-Exit Skam

By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

Those of us who know how catastrophic it would be for the UK to leave the EU know already that the referendum is going to be a whitewash. Simply put, the country can't afford a no vote. So, like the AV referendum before it, this whole In/Out referendum will be a joke. We know, for a start, that we will be voting to stay, this is so the pro-EU side can look more positive in asking for a yes vote and this subliminal psychology usually swings undecided voters. Plus voting to stay with something always appeals to more traditionalist voters, as change is always frightening. Obviously, on top of this Cameron is likely to push hard on the scare tactics, as well as arguing that he has won real concessions from the EU.. so the yes campaign is going to be a massively funded extremely over-emotive hard sell campaign with the full weight of both of the main parties behind it... whilst the No vote will be mainly led by Ukip and the Tory fringe, woefully under-funded and ill thought out.

However, what I think is increasingly obvious is that Cameron will come back from the EU with jack sh!t to offer the British public. He may win some minor concessions here and there... but nothing remotely close to treaty reform. He may get the vague promise of treaty reform by 2050 or some such nonsense.

So my question to you lot is... how on earth do you think Cameron is going to pull off getting a Yes vote without holding any cards in his hand?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Referendums or any other public vote are always open gerrymandering.

The main political parties differ very little on big issues.

The EU is a difficult one for me, my heart obviously says yes but my head says it will never work, the general population just aren't evolved enough!

Personally I could be governed by anybody from my next door neighbour to local council to Westminster to the eu or a world government, but until somebody offers me a transparent, open, democratic, accountable one which isn't as bent as the ones we've had, then what's the point!.... I'll stick with the smallest, nearest government possible.

Keep your friends close but your enemies even closer!

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I should have added he'll pull it off the same way they always do.

By instilling fear of doom from change.

Same way they got everyone to pay for the banks.

You'll hear the word "unthinkable" used substantially!

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By *nnyMan
over a year ago

Glasgow

"Referendums or any other public vote are always open gerrymandering.

........."

Yep. You fiddle the question and fiddle the franchise - you can still lose.

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

Just bumping this for the evening crowd.

What intrigues me is that we're clearly gonna get a Yes vote...national security and powerful vested business interests pretty much ensure that... and yet there seems to be a sizeable contingent who seem set upon voting No whatever Cameron says or does. Are we talking about a potential conspiracy theory here? Is the vote itself gonna be rigged? How else can Cameron secure we stay in the EU? Be assured that there are people having this very discussion in both the CIA and MI5 at this moment

(I couldn't find a paranoid emoticon so that'll have to do)

Although the threat of leaving is important to try and win concessions, I don't for, one minute, believe its genuine. What kind of magic trick can Cameron do to ensure a victory.... short of totally and utterly rigging the vote?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Can i ask OP why is so bad to leave, I might vote to leave, but a good reason would see me vote to stay

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By *eMontresMan
over a year ago

Halesowen

Unless Camoron secures cast iron guarantees for treaty reform, I'll be voting to leave the EU - yes there will be upheaval, but the long term prospect will be better for the UK.

Having said that, Murdoch will decide the outcome by telling Sun readers which way to vote.

I've successfully predicted the outcome of all general elections and referenda so far in my adult lifetime. My prediction for this one is the same - it's whatever Murdoch tells Sun readers to do.

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

"Can i ask OP why is so bad to leave, I might vote to leave, but a good reason would see me vote to stay"

I'm personally pro staying in but this thread isn't really about that... it's about the fact that both of the major parties are, on the whole, pro staying in... most of the big business interests are pro staying in... the US want us to stay in... and the EU wants us to stay in. The only people who want us out are a small contingent of whacky politicians, a problem which can be easily dealt with, and the British people... achhh that's where the hitch comes in. So, being of the opinion that people are never given the power to vote on things that would genuinely make a difference, I wanted to ask how on earth the powerful forces who want us to stay in the EU are going to manipulate us into voting yes.... especially when a large amount of No voters seem to be firmly and militantly opposed to it... so much so that it would seem there is nothing Cameron could do to change that.

As for why you should vote yes... I think you're likely to be hit round the head with all that info when the referendum comes along so I'll leave it for the big boys to argue that case

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

"Unless Camoron secures cast iron guarantees for treaty reform, I'll be voting to leave the EU - yes there will be upheaval, but the long term prospect will be better for the UK.

Having said that, Murdoch will decide the outcome by telling Sun readers which way to vote.

I've successfully predicted the outcome of all general elections and referenda so far in my adult lifetime. My prediction for this one is the same - it's whatever Murdoch tells Sun readers to do."

Good answer. I'm wondering if this vote might be a place to test electronic voting too... that'd help them fix it on the inside, just in case it went the wrong way. Again... I don't mean wrong for me... I mean wrong for all the powerful vested interests.

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By *oo hotCouple
over a year ago

North West

Always someone with a conspiracy theory lol

Bottom line is that we are in and will highly likely stay in because generally speaking people are familiar with what we have.

We are having this referendum because a significant enough number of people have questioned why we are still in it. It is now up to those people to convince the rest why it will be better for us to leave.

Personally speaking, I have conservative views generally but I have benefited personally and professionally from being an EU citizen. I want my kids to also have the opportunity to turn up in Amsterdam, Rome, Barcelona or Berlin and be able to live and work without let hinderence. It is a wonderful right to have.

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By *obbytupperMan
over a year ago

Menston near Ilkley

There is absolutely no reason to worry, if we get the answer wrong the first time, they will keep asking till we eventually get it right.

We've seen this sort of thing before regarding the EU.

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By *eMontresMan
over a year ago

Halesowen

"Always someone with a conspiracy theory lol

It's not a theory, it's fact. If you can be bothered, go and dig out the microfiche of Sun newspapers in the run up to elections and referenda - every single one has gone the way the Sun (Murdoch) wanted.

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

"There is absolutely no reason to worry, if we get the answer wrong the first time, they will keep asking till we eventually get it right.

We've seen this sort of thing before regarding the EU.

I was thinking that too. It seems obvious to me that there is likely to be a better scenario and a worse scenario for our country, both financially and strategically. Rather than have us lot vote on it they should all sit down and figure out what that is and go with it. At this point I'd say it's pretty clear that this advantage is had in staying in the EU. So in essence the vote is going to be between improving our countries standing or damaging it. If we, the public, vote to damage it... surely someone would just step in and say "that's enough fun and games... we're staying in whether you like it or not". Perhaps some silent black OP helicopters will descend on Trafalgar square, some weird looking europeans will get out, do a few handshakes with Cameron, and he'll suddenly claim new concessions that mean we should stay in.

Ok I'll put my hands up... I love a good conspiracy theory

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By *arry247Couple
over a year ago

Wakefield

What makes you think it is a scam; David Cameron has made it clear from the outset that he favours staying in the EU?

He is therefore trying to negotiate changes to make the EU more palatable for those who want to come out.

What is clear for those of us in business is the EU is not working and the agenda in the EU is more control.

We would vote to come out.

The EU needs the UK more than the UK needs the EU.

The UK is a net importer of goods from the EU and any rhetoric about EU companies pulling out of the UK is bullshit, if they did that they would lose one of the most profitable markets for them.

The UK would benefit from pulling out as it would not only save money but would open up worldwide markets at the same time as keeping the EU market.

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By *eMontresMan
over a year ago

Halesowen

The London Stock Exchange is the 3rd largest in the world, Euronext is 7th and Frankfurt 10th. That's why the EU want us to stay, so they can tax the transactions. I think it's around 75% of all European financial transactions go through London.

That in itself is good enough reason to leave if we can't get treaty changes.

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By *rightonsteveMan
over a year ago

Brighton - even Hove!

It's always jam tomorrow....

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

"What makes you think it is a scam?"

I think it's a scam because we're effectively voting on something that effects a lot of powerful vested interests. Asking people to vote on whether we should leave or stay in the EU is a bit like a heavyweight boxer asking his fans to vote on whether he should win or lose the next match.

People seem to have the quaint illusion that people vote on things and then they happen. We forget the mass protests that occurred against Blair invading Iraq.. all of which fell on completely deaf ears. Power knows what power needs to do in order to attain more power. If it gets a mandate then it can claim to do it legitimately. If it fails to get a mandate then it needs to come up with an excuse for why it's going to do it anyway. Cynical perhaps... but that's the way the world works as I see it

If it's not in Britain's best interests to leave the EU and we vote to leave the EU we won't leave the EU... it's really as simple as that. It's a question of how Cameron's gonna spin it to ensure he doesn't get that egg on his face, that's what's intriguing me. Don't get me wrong... if it's a Yes vote then they won't fix it... but they've gotta be thinking of contingencies if the vote looks like it might be a No vote...surely?

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By *obka3Couple
over a year ago

bournemouth

"What makes you think it is a scam; David Cameron has made it clear from the outset that he favours staying in the EU?

He is therefore trying to negotiate changes to make the EU more palatable for those who want to come out.

What is clear for those of us in business is the EU is not working and the agenda in the EU is more control.

We would vote to come out.

The EU needs the UK more than the UK needs the EU.

The UK is a net importer of goods from the EU and any rhetoric about EU companies pulling out of the UK is bullshit, if they did that they would lose one of the most profitable markets for them.

The UK would benefit from pulling out as it would not only save money but would open up worldwide markets at the same time as keeping the EU market.

Well said

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By *ophieslutTV/TS
over a year ago

Central

I've been saying on here for a while that the vote must be to stay, as decided by those with money and power, and that Cameron would be given some shiny trinkets, so he can pretend he's gotten change.

It would be disastrous for us to leave. I couldn't cope with longer airport queues at immigration in Europe, for non EU citizens

Seriously, jobs would diminish here, due to businesses who use us for European production, not just for production for UK buyers. The city markets would be impacted, with business moving to Frankfurt etc.

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By *obka3Couple
over a year ago

bournemouth

"What makes you think it is a scam?

What mass protests? A few rent a mob ex CND types not exactly mass numbers.

DC has always said he believes the EU idea is basically sound but like FIFA it has been taken over by those with an agenda that IMO a large majority of EU citizens dont want, IE a federal state like the US and central control by unelected bureaucrats, the EURO farce should be enough to show them that Europe is too diverse for a United States of Europe to ever work. If he gets some concessions DC will recommend we stay if he doesnt then we leave

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By *abioMan
over a year ago

Newcastle and Gateshead

I just wonder how people heads will explode if the majority of the people in Scotland Wales and Northern Ireland vote to stay.... But people in England vote to go

I think you are staring at the break up of the United Kingdom

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By *ophieslutTV/TS
over a year ago

Central

Welcome back Fabio - hope you're ok!

I think Scotland would want to stay in the EU - but that's the government there, rather than the peoples' votes.

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By *ophieslutTV/TS
over a year ago

Central

75% of European over-the-counter derivatives are done in London, and c. 40% of global trades. This is from a global market of around $640 trillion. That's one hell of a lot of money.

If we leave the EU, that's a lot of city trading that could head to mainland Europe from here. Atm the UK is fairly dependent on city trading, so it's too big a risk to lose out, if we leave.

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By *mmabluTV/TS
over a year ago

upton wirral

I hate the EU believe we should never have gone in,but unfortunately we are in to deep,there is no way out.

People will be scared to vote out I think.

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By *eliciouslyNastyMan
over a year ago

London

I'd rather die dirt poor, than live as a rich slave!

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By *eliciouslyNastyMan
over a year ago

London

"75% of European over-the-counter derivatives are done in London, and c. 40% of global trades. This is from a global market of around $640 trillion. That's one hell of a lot of money.

If we leave the EU, that's a lot of city trading that could head to mainland Europe from here. Atm the UK is fairly dependent on city trading, so it's too big a risk to lose out, if we leave."

That's not going anywhere.... The systems and mechanisms that make that possible have been enshrined for 100 years.

It would take an inordinate amount of money, an astronomical amount of time and 10 years of testing and fuck ups to replace the system the world has.

New York - London........ Nope! What did you think there was a third?

The reasons for transactions, markets, insurance, shipping, and currency exchange being in these locations are so numerous and unbreakable...

Well until the whole world adopts English Common Law and the equity system.

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By *obbytupperMan
over a year ago

Menston near Ilkley

"I just wonder how people heads will explode if the majority of the people in Scotland Wales and Northern Ireland vote to stay.... But people in England vote to go

I think you are staring at the break up of the United Kingdom "

Fracking is another debate!

Welcome back Fabio mate.

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By *eliciouslyNastyMan
over a year ago

London

"I just wonder how people heads will explode if the majority of the people in Scotland Wales and Northern Ireland vote to stay.... But people in England vote to go

I think you are staring at the break up of the United Kingdom

Fracking is another debate!

Welcome back Fabio mate."

Or a federalisation of it....

Who knows?

We are going through a weird centralisation phase at the moment, when the general populace struggle to decentralise...

A federal planet maybe, with 0 nation states and a huge amount of city/county/provincial states?

"May you live in interesting times"....

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"75% of European over-the-counter derivatives are done in London, and c. 40% of global trades. This is from a global market of around $640 trillion. That's one hell of a lot of money.

If we leave the EU, that's a lot of city trading that could head to mainland Europe from here. Atm the UK is fairly dependent on city trading, so it's too big a risk to lose out, if we leave."
.

Well the London market is the most corrupt in the world! The only way them fuckers will leave is if someone in acts regulations! Don't hold out any hope of Dave doing it!.

Take just the act of rehypothacation, no one else allows it, I'm pretty sure it's even banned on wall St

That act alone allows London to sell the same piece of shit again and again and again!

Britains largest ever export agreement in history was to Saudi Arabia, the al yamamah agreement was worth around 100 billion pounds to present date!. It's not a trade deal I personally liked but there you have commerce, if somebody wants something you have they'll buy it, if not your living off charity. Like Russian gas! I notice the EU still buys it, even though russias not an eu member state, in fact Russia is the eus third biggest market and the eu Russia's biggest!.

The eu is the UK,s biggest export market! Sounds impressive but let's be frank, we don't export that much anymore in fact only 15% of our gdp comes from exports!

Were in a massive trade account deficit!.

I like Europe, in the main I like Europeans, I'm not really arsed about queues in airports to be honest, I rarely fly and don't belive in this modern mass transit madness that's wrecking the planet!, that said I'm sure there's loads who do.

All this talk about concessions is just nonsense to placate the public, the eu will never work unless it's joined politically and monetarily, they know that, and they will do it, once you've signed away that referendum.

Magicians perform illusion with slight of hand and the ability to get the audience to look at something else while he slips the ace up is sleeve!

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By *andS66Couple
over a year ago

Derby

The thing with Cameron is that he is not telling us what he wants from the EU... in other words, he is pro-EU, but what will sway him to recommend a NO vote, what is the minimum that we want otherwise we leave?

It's a very difficult situation for him, as hour doesn't want to show his hand to other EU members, but the people of the UK then feel he's not being straight with us.

Personally, I think he should put the minimum requirements in a sealed envelope, tell the EU they've got one shot at the trophy and to give us their best offer, and if that offer doesn't meet with what's in that envelope, then he should be campaigning for a no vote.

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By *ophieslutTV/TS
over a year ago

Central

Cameron probably already knows he's getting little - he may even know what he's getting out of the talks - but he has to appease the hard liners of the party. So there's some theatre of pretence and the few token trinkets he'll get will be talked up as of huge value to us.

I'm awaiting the bust up between him and some leader or other. He'll be shown all sweaty - yuck - then the sham deal will be agreed. Afterwards the public will be expected to agree to stay, almost in sympathy for the lightweight morons struggle on our behalf.

My comments about airport queues are flippant, I'd vote for what's good for the UK, not just myself.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Those of us who know how catastrophic it would be for the UK to leave the EU know already that the referendum is going to be a whitewash. Simply put, the country can't afford a no vote. So, like the AV referendum before it, this whole In/Out referendum will be a joke. We know, for a start, that we will be voting to stay, this is so the pro-EU side can look more positive in asking for a yes vote and this subliminal psychology usually swings undecided voters. Plus voting to stay with something always appeals to more traditionalist voters, as change is always frightening. Obviously, on top of this Cameron is likely to push hard on the scare tactics, as well as arguing that he has won real concessions from the EU.. so the yes campaign is going to be a massively funded extremely over-emotive hard sell campaign with the full weight of both of the main parties behind it... whilst the No vote will be mainly led by Ukip and the Tory fringe, woefully under-funded and ill thought out.

So my question to you lot is... how on earth do you think Cameron is going to pull off getting a Yes vote without holding any cards in his hand?

He will have them up his sleeves.

Him

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By *eMontresMan
over a year ago

Halesowen

"75% of European over-the-counter derivatives are done in London, and c. 40% of global trades. This is from a global market of around $640 trillion. That's one hell of a lot of money.

If we leave the EU, that's a lot of city trading that could head to mainland Europe from here. Atm the UK is fairly dependent on city trading, so it's too big a risk to lose out, if we leave."

That business was here before we joined the EU - I'm confident it will still be there if we leave. Why would organisations go to the expense of switching which market the trade on, and reduce their profits by paying more tax?

Also, I travelled extensively and easily in Europe before the EU existed, and there were also plenty of ex pats working there without any problem.

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By *its_n_piecesCouple
over a year ago

What mass protests? A few rent a mob ex CND types not exactly mass numbers.

please clarify who exactly paid the protesters to protest

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

Thanks far all the input everyone... a much more interesting read now

I guess the point of all this is that we're going to have a big debate about whether it's right for us to stay or leave... but that, like 2+2=4, there will be a knowledge somewhere in the halls of power about which choice is best for us, whether that be Yes or No... and the vote will be caressed to return that result. It's just gonna be intriguing to see how that can happen as people on both sides seem so entrenched in their views.

I was talking to a tory friend the other day who said he's pro staying in. I asked him what he'd vote if Cameron came back with absolutely nothing. This flummoxed him for a moment and then he said he would have to vote to exit purely out of principle. This vote's an interesting piece of public theatre really. It will be interesting to see the machinations of power ensuring the result it wants. If that's a Yes vote it'll be fascinating watching as these forums slowly become filled with Yes voices... and quite how they pull off that trick...fascinating

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By *etitesaraTV/TS
over a year ago

rochdale

What mass protests? A few rent a mob ex CND types not exactly mass numbers.

please clarify who exactly paid the protesters to protest"

Over a million people protested the decision to go to war, hardly a 'few'

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

"What mass protests? A few rent a mob ex CND types not exactly mass numbers."

I take it by that remark that...

A) you were not all that impressed with the largest political protest march in the UK's history and...

B) You were one of the monkeys who thought it was a good idea to invade Iraq

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By *eliciouslyNastyMan
over a year ago

London

"Thanks far all the input everyone... a much more interesting read now

That's the same at any level, even parents manipulate, massage the message and leverage their power to get what they want from their children.

Yes or no.... Is not the issue, anyone who doesn't think the British people have the capability to make their own decisions, shouldn't be voted into power.

And that's all I heard from Labor this year.

"Your all too stupid to be allowed to vote"

No I don't want US style voting madness, where they vote on what colour plates to have in the White House canteen, but yes I do want a choice on who my friends are!

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

What mass protests? A few rent a mob ex CND types not exactly mass numbers.

please clarify who exactly paid the protesters to protest"
.

Nobody paid me and I was there all day

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Bullying is one of capitalisms greatest traits.

The biggest and strongest pick on the weakest and smallest, these are innate in business and politics.

The EU is all about bullying, forget all the bollocks about this or that, when alls said and done world politics is about the big bullying the small, just look at the last 60 years of history with the usa!. all the world leaders know it, they don't say it but they sure as hell do it.

No they love there bullying and they need might to do it, when you hear somebody say "leaving the eu will weaken our standing" what they actually mean is we won't be able to bully as well as did!!.

This is the benefit and also the downfall of the eu, it gives them better bullying rights but then when things go wrong like we have seen they start to bully each other and with a right wing under current the signs are not good!.

No good will come of anything or any political union until you assimilate and become one.

Now bearing in mind there's people on here who would like to lynch the Scottish and Scottish who would like to fuck the English and that's after 300 years.... I give the eu about 5 more before it turns tits up... No fault of its own but because people are just wankers at heart

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By *rank_SimoneCouple
over a year ago

Bideford

An easy way to ensure a Yes Vote is to use silence is approval card.

Those that are registered to vote but do not are in approval so its a yes vote.

That way to vote NO you have to register a vote. Simples

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By *nnyMan
over a year ago

Glasgow

"An easy way to ensure a Yes Vote is to use silence is approval card.

Those that are registered to vote but do not are in approval so its a yes vote.

That way to vote NO you have to register a vote. Simples "

FFS. Don't suggest that to NEckola.

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By *eMontresMan
over a year ago

Halesowen

Let's be under no illusion. Germany has achieved without a single shot, what the Kaiser and Hitler attempted and failed through force.

The Bundesbank runs Europe. That's why they want us in, not because they have the remotest interest in our, or any other member state's well being. They want our stock market and banking system under their control, and ultimately our legislature.

I was in favour of a common market, and we were assured that it would never affect our legislature or financial institutions, but that was a lie. Documents have come to light recently that show the Heath government were well aware of the ultimate aims of the EU, but that they deliberately withheld that from the voting public.

We have no power or influence in the EU and IMO we would be better off out, maybe in some sort of trading partner arrangement such as Switzerland or Norway, but free to negotiate favourable trading arrangements with other countries, as we did before we joined. We had to relinquish our commonwealth arrangements to join the EU, but I'm sure we could renew many of those arrangements and establish new ones, if freed from the Bundesbank hegemony that is the EU.

So that will be a no then

(But it's academic - Murdoch will decide and tell Sun readers how to vote - this time I'm going to put money on it)

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I'm sure we are going to see plenty more propaganda akin to those hideous and misleading anti-AV posters: "She needs a maternity unit, not an alternative voting system", etc.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

So my question to you lot is... how on earth do you think Cameron is going to pull off getting a Yes vote without holding any cards in his hand?

I agree pretty much entirely that this is the plan and that your penultimate paragraph highlights perfectly where the huge flaw potentially is. Cameron is not unlike the England world cup supporter that is convinced we are going to win, tge world cup, foolishly believing that we are far bigger in the overall scheme than we actually are. Truth is we need to remain in the EU far more than the EU need us to remain and when Cameron comes back empty handed he will be as shocked and confused as the football fan crying because we never made it through the group stages.

And at that point he is fucked

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By *anejohnkent6263Couple
over a year ago

canterbury

govements always get there way.....prob dodgy vote counting first off.we live in thanet south farage area,we know of many ukip voters and not so many conservatives yet the cons won.....ps the vote boxes went missing for hours....police now involved what happened we will never know

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By *nleashedCrakenMan
over a year ago

Widnes

"Always someone with a conspiracy theory lol

I think it's far more likely that The Sun goes the way it's readership is heading and, rather than leading, simply follows them and reinforces them in the direction they're already heading.

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By *nleashedCrakenMan
over a year ago

Widnes

"What makes you think it is a scam; David Cameron has made it clear from the outset that he favours staying in the EU?

He is therefore trying to negotiate changes to make the EU more palatable for those who want to come out.

What is clear for those of us in business is the EU is not working and the agenda in the EU is more control.

We would vote to come out.

The EU needs the UK more than the UK needs the EU.

The UK is a net importer of goods from the EU and any rhetoric about EU companies pulling out of the UK is bullshit, if they did that they would lose one of the most profitable markets for them.

The UK would benefit from pulling out as it would not only save money but would open up worldwide markets at the same time as keeping the EU market.

The world markets that may open up to us outside of the EU are already open to us inside the EU. If not, maybe you could tell us which new markets would become open to us and what more favorable conditions they would be open to us than are currently open to us as part of the EU.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"govements always get there way.....prob dodgy vote counting first off.we live in thanet south farage area,we know of many ukip voters and not so many conservatives yet the cons won.....ps the vote boxes went missing for hours....police now involved what happened we will never know "

Seems very odd that the local election result from the same day are significantly different. And that the result was noticeably later than anticipated. And that the slips have already been destroyed. Lots of very unusual circumstances.

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By *nleashedCrakenMan
over a year ago

Widnes

"I'd rather die dirt poor, than live as a rich slave!"

So would I but, given the choice, I'd rather be both rich and free, that's why I'll be voting to stay in largest grouping of democratic, independent and free trading nations, also known as the EU!

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By *eliciouslyNastyMan
over a year ago

London

"I'd rather die dirt poor, than live as a rich slave!

So would I but, given the choice, I'd rather be both rich and free, that's why I'll be voting to stay in largest grouping of democratic, independent and free trading nations, also known as the EU!"

I'm pretty sure I won't, I have next to no shared beliefs with the idea of the EU. In fact it nearly disgusts me.

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By *nleashedCrakenMan
over a year ago

Widnes

[Removed by poster at 30/05/15 13:41:09]

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By *nleashedCrakenMan
over a year ago

Widnes

"75% of European over-the-counter derivatives are done in London, and c. 40% of global trades. This is from a global market of around $640 trillion. That's one hell of a lot of money.

If we leave the EU, that's a lot of city trading that could head to mainland Europe from here. Atm the UK is fairly dependent on city trading, so it's too big a risk to lose out, if we leave..

Well the London market is the most corrupt in the world! The only way them fuckers will leave is if someone in acts regulations! Don't hold out any hope of Dave doing it!.

Take just the act of rehypothacation, no one else allows it, I'm pretty sure it's even banned on wall St

That act alone allows London to sell the same piece of shit again and again and again!

The eu is the UK,s biggest export market! Sounds impressive but let's be frank, we don't export that much anymore in fact only 15% of our gdp comes from exports!

Were in a massive trade account deficit!.

Magicians perform illusion with slight of hand and the ability to get the audience to look at something else while he slips the ace up is sleeve!"

Just for clarification.

hypothecation, in it's simplest form, is the practice of taking a security on a loan. For many this is know as a mortgage.

Rehypothecation is when the organisation uses the security you have given for your loan to get credit for itself.

Rehypothecation enables fluid transactions required for proper financial market operations, as only the possession of the title needs to be verified to conclude the transaction. This mechanism also enables leverage in the securities market.

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By *nleashedCrakenMan
over a year ago

Widnes

"75% of European over-the-counter derivatives are done in London, and c. 40% of global trades. This is from a global market of around $640 trillion. That's one hell of a lot of money.

If we leave the EU, that's a lot of city trading that could head to mainland Europe from here. Atm the UK is fairly dependent on city trading, so it's too big a risk to lose out, if we leave.

Also, I travelled extensively and easily in Europe before the EU existed, and there were also plenty of ex pats working there without any problem."

You may have been aloud to travel and possibly work in Europe before we joined the EEC/EU but you didn't have the right to. That's a big difference. I have lived and worked in the US but I have no right to live or work there, I was able to only with permission and by special arrangement. I can't just go there and work. It's a big difference.

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By *nleashedCrakenMan
over a year ago

Widnes

What mass protests? A few rent a mob ex CND types not exactly mass numbers.

please clarify who exactly paid the protesters to protest

Over a million people protested the decision to go to war, hardly a 'few' "

And hardly a democratic referendum either. Polls suggested at the time that the majority supported the war.

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By *eliciouslyNastyMan
over a year ago

London

"75% of European over-the-counter derivatives are done in London, and c. 40% of global trades. This is from a global market of around $640 trillion. That's one hell of a lot of money.

If we leave the EU, that's a lot of city trading that could head to mainland Europe from here. Atm the UK is fairly dependent on city trading, so it's too big a risk to lose out, if we leave.

Also, I travelled extensively and easily in Europe before the EU existed, and there were also plenty of ex pats working there without any problem.

Boarder line worthless right.... From our point of view anyways...

Who knows what way this will go, but either will result in very little changing.

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By *eliciouslyNastyMan
over a year ago

London

What mass protests? A few rent a mob ex CND types not exactly mass numbers.

please clarify who exactly paid the protesters to protest

Over a million people protested the decision to go to war, hardly a 'few'

And hardly a democratic referendum either. Polls suggested at the time that the majority supported the war."

Problem is nobody at any level wants to engage in conflict.

But going to war is a decision that should be made early.

By the time it's being debated, it's too late.

Some guy, somewhere, once said....

"More harm is done through indecision, than wrong decision"

Maybe it was wrong to engage n Gulf 2, but the amount of times Britain has gone to war without the full facts, has made us one of the finest nations in 10,000 years of civilisation.... Probably;-)

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By *nleashedCrakenMan
over a year ago

Widnes

"75% of European over-the-counter derivatives are done in London, and c. 40% of global trades. This is from a global market of around $640 trillion. That's one hell of a lot of money.

If we leave the EU, that's a lot of city trading that could head to mainland Europe from here. Atm the UK is fairly dependent on city trading, so it's too big a risk to lose out, if we leave.

Also, I travelled extensively and easily in Europe before the EU existed, and there were also plenty of ex pats working there without any problem.

Boarder line worthless right.... From our point of view anyways...

Who knows what way this will go, but either will result in very little changing."

It maybe worthless to you but it's not worthless to the 2,500,000 British citizens living and working in the EU or the 2,500,000 EU citizens living and working in the UK.

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By *nleashedCrakenMan
over a year ago

Widnes

Now go and cast your votes on the referendum thread I've just bumped.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"What makes you think it is a scam; David Cameron has made it clear from the outset that he favours staying in the EU?

He is therefore trying to negotiate changes to make the EU more palatable for those who want to come out.

What is clear for those of us in business is the EU is not working and the agenda in the EU is more control.

We would vote to come out.

The EU needs the UK more than the UK needs the EU.

The UK is a net importer of goods from the EU and any rhetoric about EU companies pulling out of the UK is bullshit, if they did that they would lose one of the most profitable markets for them.

The UK would benefit from pulling out as it would not only save money but would open up worldwide markets at the same time as keeping the EU market.

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By *eliciouslyNastyMan
over a year ago

London

"75% of European over-the-counter derivatives are done in London, and c. 40% of global trades. This is from a global market of around $640 trillion. That's one hell of a lot of money.

If we leave the EU, that's a lot of city trading that could head to mainland Europe from here. Atm the UK is fairly dependent on city trading, so it's too big a risk to lose out, if we leave.

Also, I travelled extensively and easily in Europe before the EU existed, and there were also plenty of ex pats working there without any problem.

Boarder line worthless right.... From our point of view anyways...

Who knows what way this will go, but either will result in very little changing.

It maybe worthless to you but it's not worthless to the 2,500,000 British citizens living and working in the EU or the 2,500,000 EU citizens living and working in the UK."

That makes it an exact swap then.

And the people either the requisite skills will get jobs either way.

Admittedly I'm not all that against free movement of labour.

Look what it's done for the USA and China, they have an almost limitless supply of cheap labour.

We just need to learn how to use it.

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By *nleashedCrakenMan
over a year ago

Widnes

"What makes you think it is a scam; David Cameron has made it clear from the outset that he favours staying in the EU?

He is therefore trying to negotiate changes to make the EU more palatable for those who want to come out.

What is clear for those of us in business is the EU is not working and the agenda in the EU is more control.

We would vote to come out.

The EU needs the UK more than the UK needs the EU.

The UK is a net importer of goods from the EU and any rhetoric about EU companies pulling out of the UK is bullshit, if they did that they would lose one of the most profitable markets for them.

The UK would benefit from pulling out as it would not only save money but would open up worldwide markets at the same time as keeping the EU market.

But no one seems to be able to tell us what these new worldwide markets actually are, maybe because there are none that we're not already trading with as part of the EU.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"75% of European over-the-counter derivatives are done in London, and c. 40% of global trades. This is from a global market of around $640 trillion. That's one hell of a lot of money.

If we leave the EU, that's a lot of city trading that could head to mainland Europe from here. Atm the UK is fairly dependent on city trading, so it's too big a risk to lose out, if we leave..

Well the London market is the most corrupt in the world! The only way them fuckers will leave is if someone in acts regulations! Don't hold out any hope of Dave doing it!.

Take just the act of rehypothacation, no one else allows it, I'm pretty sure it's even banned on wall St

That act alone allows London to sell the same piece of shit again and again and again!

The eu is the UK,s biggest export market! Sounds impressive but let's be frank, we don't export that much anymore in fact only 15% of our gdp comes from exports!

Were in a massive trade account deficit!.

Magicians perform illusion with slight of hand and the ability to get the audience to look at something else while he slips the ace up is sleeve!

Just for clarification.

hypothecation, in it's simplest form, is the practice of taking a security on a loan. For many this is know as a mortgage.

Rehypothecation is when the organisation uses the security you have given for your loan to get credit for itself.

Not just leverage but massive leverage and all very elusive but most importantly if you were to hypothacate on wall st your maximum value over your original collateral is 140%.... In London it's limitless!!

It's why AIG,s office in London was in London and why it was one of the first to collapse, it was there selling cds over and over and over, so in fact your mortgage could be owned by anyone!.

That's a scary thought.

Of course it's also why everyone in finance is in London and why Frankfurt could be in a union with the entire world and would never "take over" from London... No bankers like the EU ... It's far too controlling for their liking

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By *nleashedCrakenMan
over a year ago

Widnes

The UK would benefit from pulling out as it would not only save money but would open up worldwide markets at the same time as keeping the EU market.

But no one seems to be able to tell us what these new worldwide markets actually are, maybe because there are none that we're not already trading with as part of the EU."

Still waiting for the Europhobes to answer this point.

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

Interesting article in the FT basically saying what I said at the start of the thread i.e. that it's all gonna be a bit of theatre really and that Britain can't afford to leave the EU in actuality.

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/cbd191ce-19c0-11e5-8201-cbdb03d71480.html#axzz3e4BXBduy

"It is well understood in Berlin that Cameron can’t return from negotiations admitting defeat

Promising a referendum on Britain’s place in Europe was always a rash gamble — a tactical swerve blind to the strategic consequences. The stakes have risen. The rest of Europe does not want to see the Brits depart, but the EU would muddle on. For the UK, the choice has become existential. If Britain leaves Europe, Scotland will leave Britain. The union of the United Kingdom would not long survive Brexit.

The referendum was offered to appease troublesome eurosceptics in David Cameron’s Conservative party. Some hope. There are signs the prime minister has begun to appreciate what is at stake. Never mind talk that he may be remembered as the leader who split his own party, or as the architect of Britain’s retreat from its own continent. History will be even less kind if it records that a device to quell a Tory rebellion about Europe led to the unravelling of England’s union with Scotland.

...

Mr Cameron has struck an emollient pose in his own post-election journey around EU chancelleries. What has emerged is a careful choreography for the negotiating process. As he explained it to Ms Merkel, the plan is to avoid undue acrimony and, for the most part, to keep the nitty gritty of negotiations low key and under wraps.

...

At some stage there has to be a public fight, particularly with the French. But if all goes to plan — and, like all plans, this one could go wrong — the name-calling can be deferred until the December EU summit. Mr Cameron would then emerge triumphant in the early hours of the morning clutching a list of concessions “won” from Britain’s EU partners. Game, set and match, the then prime minister John Major declared after he secured an opt-out from the Maastricht treaty in 1991. Perhaps Mr Cameron will claim reform in our time?

Nothing on the table, of course, amounts to a fundamental shift in the nature of Britain’s relationship with the EU, a point already being made by hardline eurosceptics on the Tory backbenches.

For the moment, though, the government and the sceptics both find the pretence convenient. Mr Cameron can promise change and the out camp can feign loyalty while setting up a series of impossible hurdles. When the sceptics demand a British veto over all EU legislation it is fairly plain they are willing the prime minister to stumble.

...

So there you have it. A renegotiation that promises to change nothing very much at all in Britain’s relationship with the EU followed by a referendum that, were it to go wrong, would see the UK break itself into pieces even as it detached itself from its own continent. Still, Little Englanders and Scottish separatists would have something to cheer."

As I said at the start... we already know the outcome of the vote... it literally HAS to be a yes. I'm just curious how the well oiled propaganda machine is going to manage to turn the UK Euro-sceptic vote as it seems quite firmly fixed in its ways. It will be fascinating to see people tryin to convince themselves and others that Cameron has won major concessions... when he hasn't... purely because of their need to chime with the propaganda of the day

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

So your first post says ' will be catastrophic for uk to leave eu'.

Why is that?

no hyperbole please.

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By *illwill69uMan
over a year ago

moston

I am pro EU and pro turning the EU into a single federal state. My reasoning is really quite simple, I do not like the way we like the rest of the world are all held ransom to the economic whims of the USA and the only way to escape that stranglehold is to become a bigger economy and have the Euro replace the $ as the dominant currency.

However I am also a realist and I listen to what is being said around me and the simple fact is very few share my view. In fact most are opposed to loosing the £. And most are violently opposed to further integration and wanting a stop to all immigration. I have also heard many mutterings for years that are now getting quite loud about wishes to have foreigners removed because there are too many here now.

I think that we may all be in for a very big surprise when the referendum happens and I would not be at all surprised if the British population vote us out.

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By *arry247Couple
over a year ago

Wakefield

The UK would benefit from pulling out as it would not only save money but would open up worldwide markets at the same time as keeping the EU market.

But no one seems to be able to tell us what these new worldwide markets actually are, maybe because there are none that we're not already trading with as part of the EU.

Still waiting for the Europhobes to answer this point."

We are not Europhobes but we do have an open mind and have to contend daily with the obstructions the EU put in the way of negotiating deals with the likes of China and other emerging markets.

Such negotiations are supposed to go through the EU whereas we can get better deals negotiating direct.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Hello Will,

"I am pro EU and pro turning the EU into a single federal state."

It is already, pretty much, and we are deluged by new laws all the time, and I for one do not like it one bit.

I trust your forecast that we leave comes true and the sooner the better. When are we going to realise we have very few friends of the U.K. in the 'European Union'

Alec

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Hello Will,

"I am pro EU and pro turning the EU into a single federal state."

It is already, pretty much, and we are deluged by new laws all the time, and I for one do not like it one bit.

I trust your forecast that we leave comes true and the sooner the better. When are we going to realise we have very few friends of the U.K. in the 'European Union'

Alec"

Your posts remind me of the synths out of humans

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By *oo hotCouple
over a year ago

North West

Such negotiations are supposed to go through the EU whereas we can get better deals negotiating direct."

So you figure that a population of 60,000,000 will secure better trade deals and tariffs than a community of 500,000,000?

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By *nleashedCrakenMan
over a year ago

Widnes

The UK would benefit from pulling out as it would not only save money but would open up worldwide markets at the same time as keeping the EU market.

But no one seems to be able to tell us what these new worldwide markets actually are, maybe because there are none that we're not already trading with as part of the EU.

Still waiting for the Europhobes to answer this point.

We are not Europhobes but we do have an open mind and have to contend daily with the obstructions the EU put in the way of negotiating deals with the likes of China and other emerging markets.

Such negotiations are supposed to go through the EU whereas we can get better deals negotiating direct."

Which "we" are you?. Are you the "we" doing trade negotiators or the "we" trying to trade? It's not clear from your post what you are actually trying to say.

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By *nleashedCrakenMan
over a year ago

Widnes

"Hello Will,

"I am pro EU and pro turning the EU into a single federal state."

It is already, pretty much, and we are deluged by new laws all the time, and I for one do not like it one bit.

I trust your forecast that we leave comes true and the sooner the better. When are we going to realise we have very few friends of the U.K. in the 'European Union'

Alec"

On what do you base that statement?. I think, proportionately, we probably have more friends in Europe than out side. I know personally I do.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Hello Will,

"I am pro EU and pro turning the EU into a single federal state."

It is already, pretty much, and we are deluged by new laws all the time, and I for one do not like it one bit.

I trust your forecast that we leave comes true and the sooner the better. When are we going to realise we have very few friends of the U.K. in the 'European Union'

Alec"

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By *arry247Couple
over a year ago

Wakefield

Such negotiations are supposed to go through the EU whereas we can get better deals negotiating direct.

So you figure that a population of 60,000,000 will secure better trade deals and tariffs than a community of 500,000,000?

It is already being done, the EU deals are mainly balanced in favour of Germany at present.

The EU is so good at securing trade deals it exports more to Switzerland than it does to China

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By *at2Couple
over a year ago

north Down

The EUSSR like its role model the USSR has no democracy and is run by an unelected by the people, politburo. This in turn is lead, at the minute by comrade Janckers who's election to the post consisted of a secret vote in which it didn't matter how many voted..... And which there was only one candidate... Janckers!!!!

So no matter what comrade Cameron tells us you can be sure of one thing.. YOU WILL NOT BELEAVING no matter what way the people of the UK vote.

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By *nleashedCrakenMan
over a year ago

Widnes

Such negotiations are supposed to go through the EU whereas we can get better deals negotiating direct.

So you figure that a population of 60,000,000 will secure better trade deals and tariffs than a community of 500,000,000?

It is already being done, the EU deals are mainly balanced in favour of Germany at present.

The EU is so good at securing trade deals it exports more to Switzerland than it does to China"

And yet it's mostly British diplomats who do most if the negotiators involved in EU trade agreements.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Such negotiations are supposed to go through the EU whereas we can get better deals negotiating direct.

So you figure that a population of 60,000,000 will secure better trade deals and tariffs than a community of 500,000,000?

It is already being done, the EU deals are mainly balanced in favour of Germany at present.

The EU is so good at securing trade deals it exports more to Switzerland than it does to China

And yet it's mostly British diplomats who do most if the negotiators involved in EU trade agreements."

That's a good soundbite about exports to Switzerland. It's a pity that it's not true. In 2014 EU exports to China were valued at 164 billion Euros. Exports to Switzerland were 140 billion Euros.

The EU's top two trading partners were the US then China. Switzerland was the EUs 4th biggest trading partner (by total of imports and exports).

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