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"a bakery with Christian values in Belfast has been found guilty of discrimination because they wouldn't decorate a cake for a gay couple. As its their shop, should they have been allowed to turn away this business?" Not in my view. People should not be allowed to indulge in or contribute to anti-gay attitudes. What next? Segregation? | |||
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" As its their shop, should they have been allowed to turn away this business?" Yes. Because anyone who eats it might catch Ghey. Aint ya heard? ..  | |||
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"Any business can refuse to take an order. Pretty stupid as that's how businesses make money. The issue is how they refused and their reason given. Businesses are not above the law and discrimination is discrimination. Had they simply said no thanks we won't bake you a cake without explaining why, there would have been no proof as to why and hence no court case. A" 
There's ways of saying no thank you without causing offence... | |||
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"Any business can refuse to take an order. Pretty stupid as that's how businesses make money. The issue is how they refused and their reason given. Businesses are not above the law and discrimination is discrimination. Had they simply said no thanks we won't bake you a cake without explaining why, there would have been no proof as to why and hence no court case. A" | |||
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"Any business can refuse to take an order. Pretty stupid as that's how businesses make money. The issue is how they refused and their reason given. Businesses are not above the law and discrimination is discrimination. Had they simply said no thanks we won't bake you a cake without explaining why, there would have been no proof as to why and hence no court case. A" totally this!!!
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"I think the courts and people get a little carried away with throwing the word discrimination around. The thing we have to ask ourselves is 1. Was it a wedding cake? If so people should fall on the side of religious freedom. 2. If the business is refusing to make anything for them because they are gay, then that is discrimination. Ourselves personally, we don't care who marries who. It's not for us to judge. But forcing somebody to do something against their belief is just as wrong as denying two people that want to spend their lives together the chance to do so. Remember, discrimination is about hate. " | |||
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"I think the courts and people get a little carried away with throwing the word discrimination around. The thing we have to ask ourselves is 1. Was it a wedding cake? If so people should fall on the side of religious freedom. 2. If the business is refusing to make anything for them because they are gay, then that is discrimination. Ourselves personally, we don't care who marries who. It's not for us to judge. But forcing somebody to do something against their belief is just as wrong as denying two people that want to spend their lives together the chance to do so. Remember, discrimination is about hate. " | |||
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"I think the courts and people get a little carried away with throwing the word discrimination around. The thing we have to ask ourselves is 1. Was it a wedding cake? If so people should fall on the side of religious freedom. 2. If the business is refusing to make anything for them because they are gay, then that is discrimination. Ourselves personally, we don't care who marries who. It's not for us to judge. But forcing somebody to do something against their belief is just as wrong as denying two people that want to spend their lives together the chance to do so. Remember, discrimination is about hate. " Religion doesn't come into it. They are a business providing a service to the public. The wording of the judgement is quite careful on this: "they are running a business for profit and are not a religious group... and the business is not above the law". Unsurprisingly a DUP MLA is claiming gay rights are being put above the rights of people to hold religious beliefs. That's where the real problems will be now and the debate in NI is unlikely to die down as it's the only part of the UK that will not allow gay marriage now and there's a referendum on Friday. | |||
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"I think the courts and people get a little carried away with throwing the word discrimination around. The thing we have to ask ourselves is 1. Was it a wedding cake? If so people should fall on the side of religious freedom. 2. If the business is refusing to make anything for them because they are gay, then that is discrimination. Ourselves personally, we don't care who marries who. It's not for us to judge. But forcing somebody to do something against their belief is just as wrong as denying two people that want to spend their lives together the chance to do so. Remember, discrimination is about hate. Religion doesn't come into it. They are a business providing a service to the public. The wording of the judgement is quite careful on this: "they are running a business for profit and are not a religious group... and the business is not above the law". Unsurprisingly a DUP MLA is claiming gay rights are being put above the rights of people to hold religious beliefs. That's where the real problems will be now and the debate in NI is unlikely to die down as it's the only part of the UK that will not allow gay marriage now and there's a referendum on Friday. "
Had the guy approaches his local church women's group as they had an amazing reputation for baking great cakes then it would be different. They would be entitled as private citizens to express an opinion on gay marriage and refuse.
But he didn't.
He approached a business.
Which gave a reason for refusal that sits firmly in the realms of discrimination. There's really not much of an argument there.
It's not prioritising one set of beliefs over another. It's upholding a legal precedent. The law is the law. Of course different groups will now use the case to argue their own beliefs and claim preferential treatment, discrimination or unfair treatment by the courts and the law, depending on their stance.
Which will make great front page headlines and media stories over something that really isn't anything more than a dispute between two parties over a friggin cake.
A | |||
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"I think the courts and people get a little carried away with throwing the word discrimination around. The thing we have to ask ourselves is 1. Was it a wedding cake? If so people should fall on the side of religious freedom. 2. If the business is refusing to make anything for them because they are gay, then that is discrimination. Ourselves personally, we don't care who marries who. It's not for us to judge. But forcing somebody to do something against their belief is just as wrong as denying two people that want to spend their lives together the chance to do so. Remember, discrimination is about hate. Religion doesn't come into it. They are a business providing a service to the public. The wording of the judgement is quite careful on this: "they are running a business for profit and are not a religious group... and the business is not above the law". Unsurprisingly a DUP MLA is claiming gay rights are being put above the rights of people to hold religious beliefs. That's where the real problems will be now and the debate in NI is unlikely to die down as it's the only part of the UK that will not allow gay marriage now and there's a referendum on Friday.
Had the guy approaches his local church women's group as they had an amazing reputation for baking great cakes then it would be different. They would be entitled as private citizens to express an opinion on gay marriage and refuse.
But he didn't.
He approached a business.
Which gave a reason for refusal that sits firmly in the realms of discrimination. There's really not much of an argument there.
It's not prioritising one set of beliefs over another. It's upholding a legal precedent. The law is the law. Of course different groups will now use the case to argue their own beliefs and claim preferential treatment, discrimination or unfair treatment by the courts and the law, depending on their stance.
Which will make great front page headlines and media stories over something that really isn't anything more than a dispute between two parties over a friggin cake.
A"I agree. Except this is NI with a referendum on Friday on whether to allow same sex marriage. | |||
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"I think the courts and people get a little carried away with throwing the word discrimination around. The thing we have to ask ourselves is 1. Was it a wedding cake? If so people should fall on the side of religious freedom. 2. If the business is refusing to make anything for them because they are gay, then that is discrimination. Ourselves personally, we don't care who marries who. It's not for us to judge. But forcing somebody to do something against their belief is just as wrong as denying two people that want to spend their lives together the chance to do so. Remember, discrimination is about hate. Religion doesn't come into it. They are a business providing a service to the public. The wording of the judgement is quite careful on this: "they are running a business for profit and are not a religious group... and the business is not above the law". Unsurprisingly a DUP MLA is claiming gay rights are being put above the rights of people to hold religious beliefs. That's where the real problems will be now and the debate in NI is unlikely to die down as it's the only part of the UK that will not allow gay marriage now and there's a referendum on Friday.
Had the guy approaches his local church women's group as they had an amazing reputation for baking great cakes then it would be different. They would be entitled as private citizens to express an opinion on gay marriage and refuse.
But he didn't.
He approached a business.
Which gave a reason for refusal that sits firmly in the realms of discrimination. There's really not much of an argument there.
It's not prioritising one set of beliefs over another. It's upholding a legal precedent. The law is the law. Of course different groups will now use the case to argue their own beliefs and claim preferential treatment, discrimination or unfair treatment by the courts and the law, depending on their stance.
Which will make great front page headlines and media stories over something that really isn't anything more than a dispute between two parties over a friggin cake.
A
I agree.
Except this is NI with a referendum on Friday on whether to allow same sex marriage.
"Hence what is essentially a nothing story will be blown out of proportion. If the guy wanting the cake had simply said "Ok. Fuck off then you homophobe. I'll take my business elsewhere." then the world would still be turning. A | |||
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"I think the courts and people get a little carried away with throwing the word discrimination around. The thing we have to ask ourselves is 1. Was it a wedding cake? If so people should fall on the side of religious freedom. 2. If the business is refusing to make anything for them because they are gay, then that is discrimination. Ourselves personally, we don't care who marries who. It's not for us to judge. But forcing somebody to do something against their belief is just as wrong as denying two people that want to spend their lives together the chance to do so. Remember, discrimination is about hate. Religion doesn't come into it. They are a business providing a service to the public. The wording of the judgement is quite careful on this: "they are running a business for profit and are not a religious group... and the business is not above the law". Unsurprisingly a DUP MLA is claiming gay rights are being put above the rights of people to hold religious beliefs. That's where the real problems will be now and the debate in NI is unlikely to die down as it's the only part of the UK that will not allow gay marriage now and there's a referendum on Friday.
Had the guy approaches his local church women's group as they had an amazing reputation for baking great cakes then it would be different. They would be entitled as private citizens to express an opinion on gay marriage and refuse.
But he didn't.
He approached a business.
Which gave a reason for refusal that sits firmly in the realms of discrimination. There's really not much of an argument there.
It's not prioritising one set of beliefs over another. It's upholding a legal precedent. The law is the law. Of course different groups will now use the case to argue their own beliefs and claim preferential treatment, discrimination or unfair treatment by the courts and the law, depending on their stance.
Which will make great front page headlines and media stories over something that really isn't anything more than a dispute between two parties over a friggin cake.
A
I agree.
Except this is NI with a referendum on Friday on whether to allow same sex marriage.
"Is NI included in the referendum ? | |||
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" Except this is NI with a referendum on Friday on whether to allow same sex marriage. Hence what is essentially a nothing story will be blown out of proportion. If the guy wanting the cake had simply said "Ok. Fuck off then you homophobe. I'll take my business elsewhere." then the world would still be turning. A" It was a Bert and Ernie cake.  | |||
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"a bakery with Christian values in Belfast has been found guilty of discrimination because they wouldn't decorate a cake for a gay couple. As its their shop, should they have been allowed to turn away this business?" The problem with this case is that it is far less clear cut than eg the b&b case. The cake was for Belfast's first openly gay mayor, who has spoken out against the Equality Commission's decision to bring the case. The cake was a political statement: "Support Gay Marriage" in a country where Gay Marriage is still illegal. Sadly I agree with Trevor Phillips, and the Mayor, that this case will end up doing far more harm than good. Mr ddc | |||
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" Except this is NI with a referendum on Friday on whether to allow same sex marriage. Hence what is essentially a nothing story will be blown out of proportion. If the guy wanting the cake had simply said "Ok. Fuck off then you homophobe. I'll take my business elsewhere." then the world would still be turning. A It was a Bert and Ernie cake. "Bert and Ernie are gay??? 
A | |||
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" Except this is NI with a referendum on Friday on whether to allow same sex marriage. Hence what is essentially a nothing story will be blown out of proportion. If the guy wanting the cake had simply said "Ok. Fuck off then you homophobe. I'll take my business elsewhere." then the world would still be turning. A It was a Bert and Ernie cake. "
Disgusting. | |||
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"I think the courts and people get a little carried away with throwing the word discrimination around. The thing we have to ask ourselves is 1. Was it a wedding cake? If so people should fall on the side of religious freedom. 2. If the business is refusing to make anything for them because they are gay, then that is discrimination. Ourselves personally, we don't care who marries who. It's not for us to judge. But forcing somebody to do something against their belief is just as wrong as denying two people that want to spend their lives together the chance to do so. Remember, discrimination is about hate. Religion doesn't come into it. They are a business providing a service to the public. The wording of the judgement is quite careful on this: "they are running a business for profit and are not a religious group... and the business is not above the law". Unsurprisingly a DUP MLA is claiming gay rights are being put above the rights of people to hold religious beliefs. That's where the real problems will be now and the debate in NI is unlikely to die down as it's the only part of the UK that will not allow gay marriage now and there's a referendum on Friday.
Had the guy approaches his local church women's group as they had an amazing reputation for baking great cakes then it would be different. They would be entitled as private citizens to express an opinion on gay marriage and refuse.
But he didn't.
He approached a business.
Which gave a reason for refusal that sits firmly in the realms of discrimination. There's really not much of an argument there.
It's not prioritising one set of beliefs over another. It's upholding a legal precedent. The law is the law. Of course different groups will now use the case to argue their own beliefs and claim preferential treatment, discrimination or unfair treatment by the courts and the law, depending on their stance.
Which will make great front page headlines and media stories over something that really isn't anything more than a dispute between two parties over a friggin cake.
A
I agree.
Except this is NI with a referendum on Friday on whether to allow same sex marriage.
Is NI included in the referendum ? "Sorry, no. I meant that with it being discussed over the border the debate will spread to NI and as it's the only part of the UK not to recognise same sex marriage there is a debate to be had. | |||
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"I think the courts and people get a little carried away with throwing the word discrimination around. The thing we have to ask ourselves is 1. Was it a wedding cake? If so people should fall on the side of religious freedom. 2. If the business is refusing to make anything for them because they are gay, then that is discrimination. Ourselves personally, we don't care who marries who. It's not for us to judge. But forcing somebody to do something against their belief is just as wrong as denying two people that want to spend their lives together the chance to do so. Remember, discrimination is about hate. Religion doesn't come into it. They are a business providing a service to the public. The wording of the judgement is quite careful on this: "they are running a business for profit and are not a religious group... and the business is not above the law". Unsurprisingly a DUP MLA is claiming gay rights are being put above the rights of people to hold religious beliefs. That's where the real problems will be now and the debate in NI is unlikely to die down as it's the only part of the UK that will not allow gay marriage now and there's a referendum on Friday.
Had the guy approaches his local church women's group as they had an amazing reputation for baking great cakes then it would be different. They would be entitled as private citizens to express an opinion on gay marriage and refuse.
But he didn't.
He approached a business.
Which gave a reason for refusal that sits firmly in the realms of discrimination. There's really not much of an argument there.
It's not prioritising one set of beliefs over another. It's upholding a legal precedent. The law is the law. Of course different groups will now use the case to argue their own beliefs and claim preferential treatment, discrimination or unfair treatment by the courts and the law, depending on their stance.
Which will make great front page headlines and media stories over something that really isn't anything more than a dispute between two parties over a friggin cake.
A
I agree.
Except this is NI with a referendum on Friday on whether to allow same sex marriage.
Is NI included in the referendum ?
Sorry, no. I meant that with it being discussed over the border the debate will spread to NI and as it's the only part of the UK not to recognise same sex marriage there is a debate to be had.
"Ok , I didn't think NI was included. But if the polls are to be believed Ireland will vote in favour of gay marriage. This means Ireland , Wales , Scotland and England will allow gay marriage but a tiny six county province won't allow it. Would gay couples travel over the border to get married ? Would there marriage be recognised in NI ? | |||
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"I think the courts and people get a little carried away with throwing the word discrimination around. The thing we have to ask ourselves is 1. Was it a wedding cake? If so people should fall on the side of religious freedom. 2. If the business is refusing to make anything for them because they are gay, then that is discrimination. Ourselves personally, we don't care who marries who. It's not for us to judge. But forcing somebody to do something against their belief is just as wrong as denying two people that want to spend their lives together the chance to do so. Remember, discrimination is about hate. Religion doesn't come into it. They are a business providing a service to the public. The wording of the judgement is quite careful on this: "they are running a business for profit and are not a religious group... and the business is not above the law". Unsurprisingly a DUP MLA is claiming gay rights are being put above the rights of people to hold religious beliefs. That's where the real problems will be now and the debate in NI is unlikely to die down as it's the only part of the UK that will not allow gay marriage now and there's a referendum on Friday.
Had the guy approaches his local church women's group as they had an amazing reputation for baking great cakes then it would be different. They would be entitled as private citizens to express an opinion on gay marriage and refuse.
But he didn't.
He approached a business.
Which gave a reason for refusal that sits firmly in the realms of discrimination. There's really not much of an argument there.
It's not prioritising one set of beliefs over another. It's upholding a legal precedent. The law is the law. Of course different groups will now use the case to argue their own beliefs and claim preferential treatment, discrimination or unfair treatment by the courts and the law, depending on their stance.
Which will make great front page headlines and media stories over something that really isn't anything more than a dispute between two parties over a friggin cake.
A
I agree.
Except this is NI with a referendum on Friday on whether to allow same sex marriage.
Is NI included in the referendum ?
Sorry, no. I meant that with it being discussed over the border the debate will spread to NI and as it's the only part of the UK not to recognise same sex marriage there is a debate to be had.
Ok , I didn't think NI was included.
But if the polls are to be believed Ireland will vote in favour of gay marriage. This means Ireland , Wales , Scotland and England will allow gay marriage but a tiny six county province won't allow it.
Would gay couples travel over the border to get married ?
Would there marriage be recognised in NI ? "I don't think the marriage would be recognised in NI from the current wording. | |||
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"And as an aside if they do vote in favour then Ireland will be the first country in the world to pass marriage equality by a popular, national vote. Historic indeed." I hope the turnout is good. | |||
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" Bert and Ernie are gay??? A" .
...one of the skeletons in big bird's closet.... | |||
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" Bert and Ernie are gay??? A .
...one of the skeletons in big bird's closet...."Two in fact!!! 
Shouldn't be too suprised.
They've spent decades with a guys arm up their chuff getting anally fisted.
A | |||
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"I think the courts and people get a little carried away with throwing the word discrimination around. The thing we have to ask ourselves is 1. Was it a wedding cake? If so people should fall on the side of religious freedom. 2. If the business is refusing to make anything for them because they are gay, then that is discrimination. Ourselves personally, we don't care who marries who. It's not for us to judge. But forcing somebody to do something against their belief is just as wrong as denying two people that want to spend their lives together the chance to do so. Remember, discrimination is about hate. Religion doesn't come into it. They are a business providing a service to the public. The wording of the judgement is quite careful on this: "they are running a business for profit and are not a religious group... and the business is not above the law". Unsurprisingly a DUP MLA is claiming gay rights are being put above the rights of people to hold religious beliefs. That's where the real problems will be now and the debate in NI is unlikely to die down as it's the only part of the UK that will not allow gay marriage now and there's a referendum on Friday. " Yes, this is crux of it, the fact is that the shop by the nature of it's business has a contractual obligation to provide services for those people prepared to pay for it. It wasn't ultimately about Christian / Gay belief but about contractual obligation. | |||
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"I think the courts and people get a little carried away with throwing the word discrimination around. The thing we have to ask ourselves is 1. Was it a wedding cake? If so people should fall on the side of religious freedom. 2. If the business is refusing to make anything for them because they are gay, then that is discrimination. Ourselves personally, we don't care who marries who. It's not for us to judge. But forcing somebody to do something against their belief is just as wrong as denying two people that want to spend their lives together the chance to do so. Remember, discrimination is about hate. Religion doesn't come into it. They are a business providing a service to the public. The wording of the judgement is quite careful on this: "they are running a business for profit and are not a religious group... and the business is not above the law". Unsurprisingly a DUP MLA is claiming gay rights are being put above the rights of people to hold religious beliefs. That's where the real problems will be now and the debate in NI is unlikely to die down as it's the only part of the UK that will not allow gay marriage now and there's a referendum on Friday. Yes, this is crux of it, the fact is that the shop by the nature of it's business has a contractual obligation to provide services for those people prepared to pay for it. It wasn't ultimately about Christian / Gay belief but about contractual obligation." Exactly. They entered into the contractual obligation by taking the order and the money in the first place and then refused to deliver their side of the contract. They returned the money and stated why they wouldn't decorate the cake. | |||
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"I think the courts and people get a little carried away with throwing the word discrimination around. The thing we have to ask ourselves is 1. Was it a wedding cake? If so people should fall on the side of religious freedom. 2. If the business is refusing to make anything for them because they are gay, then that is discrimination. Ourselves personally, we don't care who marries who. It's not for us to judge. But forcing somebody to do something against their belief is just as wrong as denying two people that want to spend their lives together the chance to do so. Remember, discrimination is about hate. " I agree, no-one should be forced to do anything against their will, and personally i think the shop owners religious beliefs should be respected. Surely there are plenty of other shops about, the gay couple could easily just have taken their custom elsewhere instead of kicking up a fuss?
As an example are we going to force halal shops now to sell non-halal meat because religious beliefs apparently don't come into it? | |||
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" Bert and Ernie are gay??? A .
...one of the skeletons in big bird's closet....
Two in fact!!!
Shouldn't be too suprised.
They've spent decades with a guys arm up their chuff getting anally fisted.
A"
..you just gave me proctalgia fugax laughing....
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"I think the courts and people get a little carried away with throwing the word discrimination around. The thing we have to ask ourselves is 1. Was it a wedding cake? If so people should fall on the side of religious freedom. 2. If the business is refusing to make anything for them because they are gay, then that is discrimination. Ourselves personally, we don't care who marries who. It's not for us to judge. But forcing somebody to do something against their belief is just as wrong as denying two people that want to spend their lives together the chance to do so. Remember, discrimination is about hate. Religion doesn't come into it. They are a business providing a service to the public. The wording of the judgement is quite careful on this: "they are running a business for profit and are not a religious group... and the business is not above the law". Unsurprisingly a DUP MLA is claiming gay rights are being put above the rights of people to hold religious beliefs. That's where the real problems will be now and the debate in NI is unlikely to die down as it's the only part of the UK that will not allow gay marriage now and there's a referendum on Friday. " The problem there with that logic is some people set their business up based on their religious beliefs. If you don't respect both sides, you're doing nothing but fueling the hate. | |||
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"[Slice of gay cake removed by poster at 19/05/15 17:57:2]" | |||
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"I think the courts and people get a little carried away with throwing the word discrimination around. The thing we have to ask ourselves is 1. Was it a wedding cake? If so people should fall on the side of religious freedom. 2. If the business is refusing to make anything for them because they are gay, then that is discrimination. Ourselves personally, we don't care who marries who. It's not for us to judge. But forcing somebody to do something against their belief is just as wrong as denying two people that want to spend their lives together the chance to do so. Remember, discrimination is about hate. Religion doesn't come into it. They are a business providing a service to the public. The wording of the judgement is quite careful on this: "they are running a business for profit and are not a religious group... and the business is not above the law". Unsurprisingly a DUP MLA is claiming gay rights are being put above the rights of people to hold religious beliefs. That's where the real problems will be now and the debate in NI is unlikely to die down as it's the only part of the UK that will not allow gay marriage now and there's a referendum on Friday. The problem there with that logic is some people set their business up based on their religious beliefs. If you don't respect both sides, you're doing nothing but fueling the hate." Which is why the judgement was about the breach of law. It was a contract breach resulting in discrimination and their religious beliefs are not grounds for breaching the law. | |||
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"I think the courts and people get a little carried away with throwing the word discrimination around. The thing we have to ask ourselves is 1. Was it a wedding cake? If so people should fall on the side of religious freedom. 2. If the business is refusing to make anything for them because they are gay, then that is discrimination. Ourselves personally, we don't care who marries who. It's not for us to judge. But forcing somebody to do something against their belief is just as wrong as denying two people that want to spend their lives together the chance to do so. Remember, discrimination is about hate. I agree, no-one should be forced to do anything against their will, and personally i think the shop owners religious beliefs should be respected. Surely there are plenty of other shops about, the gay couple could easily just have taken their custom elsewhere instead of kicking up a fuss?
As an example are we going to force halal shops now to sell non-halal meat because religious beliefs apparently don't come into it? "
No body wants to see the big picture. It's all about respecting both parties. Laws can be pretty stupid at times. There is a city in our state that still has a law on the books that says "If the police run someone out of town they have to give them a three day supply of food and a horse." ( Good thing nobody has sued for this. It could end up getting real expensive.) There are a lot of times when it seems this whole argument is based on who is religious and who isn't.
There is room for both people. | |||
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"i dont understand where the discrimination is. The cake shop have throughout the case stressed that their refusal to do the cake has nothing to do with the sexual orientation of the customer. " The judge took the stance that she believed "the defendants did have the knowledge that the plaintiff was gay" and goes on to set out her reasons why this was a case of discrimination, Brownlie said: “The defendants are not a religious organisation. They conduct a business for profit. As much as I acknowledge their religious beliefs, this is a business to provide service to all. The law says they must do that.” | |||
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"i dont understand where the discrimination is. The cake shop have throughout the case stressed that their refusal to do the cake has nothing to do with the sexual orientation of the customer. The judge took the stance that she believed "the defendants did have the knowledge that the plaintiff was gay" and goes on to set out her reasons why this was a case of discrimination, Brownlie said: “The defendants are not a religious organisation. They conduct a business for profit. As much as I acknowledge their religious beliefs, this is a business to provide service to all. The law says they must do that.” " We don't know the laws in the U.K. We can only assume that they are similar to the ones here in the U.S. Our question from the beginning was. Was it a wedding cake or any service at all? Until that question is answered? | |||
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"i dont understand where the discrimination is. The cake shop have throughout the case stressed that their refusal to do the cake has nothing to do with the sexual orientation of the customer. The judge took the stance that she believed "the defendants did have the knowledge that the plaintiff was gay" and goes on to set out her reasons why this was a case of discrimination, Brownlie said: “The defendants are not a religious organisation. They conduct a business for profit. As much as I acknowledge their religious beliefs, this is a business to provide service to all. The law says they must do that.” We don't know the laws in the U.K. We can only assume that they are similar to the ones here in the U.S. Our question from the beginning was. Was it a wedding cake or any service at all? Until that question is answered? " It was a cake to celebrate the first openly gay mayor. The message was a call for legalising gay marriage. The cake shop agreed to make and decorate the cake, taking the money. They then returned the money and refused to make and decorate the cake as they felt it went against their religious beliefs. It's essentially a breach of contract case that has discrimination as the reason for that breach. | |||
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"i dont understand where the discrimination is. The cake shop have throughout the case stressed that their refusal to do the cake has nothing to do with the sexual orientation of the customer. The judge took the stance that she believed "the defendants did have the knowledge that the plaintiff was gay" and goes on to set out her reasons why this was a case of discrimination, Brownlie said: “The defendants are not a religious organisation. They conduct a business for profit. As much as I acknowledge their religious beliefs, this is a business to provide service to all. The law says they must do that.” " I follow that... So if a married couple go in to the same cake shop - ask for a celebration cake, transaction takes place, and then later confirm they want the message on the cake to read "support swinging and fucking other married couples " - and cake shop at that point say they are not happy to continue with the transaction - then they are also being discriminated against? Is it not a simple case that the cake shop were unhappy about the product they were being asked to provide, and so chose not to complete the transaction, and refunded the customer. Every business has the legal right to do this? | |||
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"i dont understand where the discrimination is. The cake shop have throughout the case stressed that their refusal to do the cake has nothing to do with the sexual orientation of the customer. The judge took the stance that she believed "the defendants did have the knowledge that the plaintiff was gay" and goes on to set out her reasons why this was a case of discrimination, Brownlie said: “The defendants are not a religious organisation. They conduct a business for profit. As much as I acknowledge their religious beliefs, this is a business to provide service to all. The law says they must do that.” I follow that... So if a married couple go in to the same cake shop - ask for a celebration cake, transaction takes place, and then later confirm they want the message on the cake to read "support swinging and fucking other married couples " - and cake shop at that point say they are not happy to continue with the transaction - then they are also being discriminated against? Is it not a simple case that the cake shop were unhappy about the product they were being asked to provide, and so chose not to complete the transaction, and refunded the customer. Every business has the legal right to do this?" A business has to comply with anti-discrimination laws. Quite rightly, too. It is alright talking about personal rights and choice but that does not justify a bus company refusing to accept non-caucasian customers, does it? | |||
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" So if a married couple go in to the same cake shop - ask for a celebration cake, transaction takes place, and then later confirm they want the message on the cake to read "support swinging and fucking other married couples " - and cake shop at that point say they are not happy to continue with the transaction - then they are also being discriminated against? " Saying "we are not happy to continue the transaction" is NOT discrimination. It's only discrimination if they said: "We are not happy to continue the transaction because we don't like swingers". In your example they HAVEN'T given a reason. | |||
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"I wonder how this sort of ruling would be applied where, as recently happened, a Muslim shop worker refused to serve someone because they were buying alcohol. Which takes precedence? The religion or the business? " The law says the business as it's the service to everyone that matters. | |||
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"i dont understand where the discrimination is. The cake shop have throughout the case stressed that their refusal to do the cake has nothing to do with the sexual orientation of the customer. The judge took the stance that she believed "the defendants did have the knowledge that the plaintiff was gay" and goes on to set out her reasons why this was a case of discrimination, Brownlie said: “The defendants are not a religious organisation. They conduct a business for profit. As much as I acknowledge their religious beliefs, this is a business to provide service to all. The law says they must do that.” I follow that... So if a married couple go in to the same cake shop - ask for a celebration cake, transaction takes place, and then later confirm they want the message on the cake to read "support swinging and fucking other married couples " - and cake shop at that point say they are not happy to continue with the transaction - then they are also being discriminated against? Is it not a simple case that the cake shop were unhappy about the product they were being asked to provide, and so chose not to complete the transaction, and refunded the customer. Every business has the legal right to do this?" Swingers aren't one of the protected characteristics... yet. | |||
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"i dont understand where the discrimination is. The cake shop have throughout the case stressed that their refusal to do the cake has nothing to do with the sexual orientation of the customer. The judge took the stance that she believed "the defendants did have the knowledge that the plaintiff was gay" and goes on to set out her reasons why this was a case of discrimination, Brownlie said: “The defendants are not a religious organisation. They conduct a business for profit. As much as I acknowledge their religious beliefs, this is a business to provide service to all. The law says they must do that.” We don't know the laws in the U.K. We can only assume that they are similar to the ones here in the U.S. Our question from the beginning was. Was it a wedding cake or any service at all? Until that question is answered? It was a cake to celebrate the first openly gay mayor. The message was a call for legalising gay marriage. The cake shop agreed to make and decorate the cake, taking the money. They then returned the money and refused to make and decorate the cake as they felt it went against their religious beliefs. It's essentially a breach of contract case that has discrimination as the reason for that breach. " Thank you very much for the information. We won't argue this, that is just plain wrong. The business should be held accountable. If they didn't take the money to begin with, that's a different story. This whole thing has been enlightening for us. We really aren't opposed to gay marriage. We're also not opposed to freedom of religion. Our whole point is there should not be one law to cover everything. There can be a fine line between the two. In some countries they behead people for being gay. We like to think we're more civilized. Hopefully, the dark ages were over along time ago. ( for some anyway.) We all have to think for ourselves rather than something that we're programed to believe. ( Religious and Atheist alike.) Here in the states, any business has the right to refuse service. ( unless it's discriminatory.) Hopefully we didn't ruffle to many feathers | |||
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"a bakery with Christian values in Belfast has been found guilty of discrimination because they wouldn't decorate a cake for a gay couple. As its their shop, should they have been allowed to turn away this business?" So should you be allowed a sign saying "no blacks" on your shop? | |||
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"It was the correct legal outcome as it was discrimination. A business should serve without prejudice and if they had done so because a customer was female or black etc, even with a religious covering story, it would be the same. Businesses don't have religious beliefs and if you want to operate here you must abide by our laws." They weren't found guilty of discrimination. | |||
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" They weren't found guilty of discrimination." They were: "The firm was found to have discriminated against Mr Lee on the grounds of sexual orientation as well as his political beliefs." That's the dispute, and the reason they're appealing. They claim they neither knew, nor cared, about the sexuality of the customer, they would not have made that cake for anyone, and happily serve gay customers every day. Mr ddc | |||
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"Any business can refuse to take an order. Pretty stupid as that's how businesses make money. The issue is how they refused and their reason given. Businesses are not above the law and discrimination is discrimination. Had they simply said no thanks we won't bake you a cake without explaining why, there would have been no proof as to why and hence no court case. A
There's ways of saying no thank you without causing offence..."Exactly. The owner Karen, who ironically happens to be a personal friend of mine, took the order herself and full payment knowing she wouldn't be making the cake. That was wrong. That is wasting someone's time and making them look a fool. As a professional business-woman she should have been able to deal with something like this easily. | |||
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"Any business can refuse to take an order. Pretty stupid as that's how businesses make money. The issue is how they refused and their reason given. Businesses are not above the law and discrimination is discrimination. Had they simply said no thanks we won't bake you a cake without explaining why, there would have been no proof as to why and hence no court case. A
There's ways of saying no thank you without causing offence...
Exactly. The owner Karen, who ironically happens to be a personal friend of mine, took the order herself and full payment knowing she wouldn't be making the cake. That was wrong. That is wasting someone's time and making them look a fool. As a professional business-woman she should have been able to deal with something like this easily."It was the taking the order and the money that allowed this to be a breach of contract case, bringing the judgement of homophobic discrimination as the reason for the breach. If you are saying your friend took this order in the full and certain knowledge that she would not be fulfilling the order because of the homophobia then the case was fully justified and the law has done exactly what it is supposed to do. | |||
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"a bakery with Christian values in Belfast has been found guilty of discrimination because they wouldn't decorate a cake for a gay couple. As its their shop, should they have been allowed to turn away this business? So should you be allowed a sign saying "no blacks" on your shop?" Erm, of course. Blacks must sit at the back of the bus. The gays must cling on to the underside. Only white male homosexual wife batterers are allowed in the shop. And only if they do not eat quiche. Or cake. Folk with religious objections to equality can wait at the bus stop until Judgement Day. | |||
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"Theres a cake shop in notts city centre that did the same thing.... Couple was spending £800 on a cake and asked for instead of man/woman on the top of the cake cud they put two men cake toppers on... Shop totally refused... The guys took there business elswhere and took the shop to the local papers did a story on them..... Rightly so aswell in my eyes!! " taking them to the papers that is.... | |||
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"Theres a cake shop in notts city centre that did the same thing.... Couple was spending £800 on a cake and asked for instead of man/woman on the top of the cake cud they put two men cake toppers on... Shop totally refused... The guys took there business elswhere and took the shop to the local papers did a story on them..... Rightly so aswell in my eyes!! taking them to the papers that is...." Bit over the top they got it done elsewhere that should be end of it why drag the original business name through mud because of this is totally ridiculous. | |||
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"Theres a cake shop in notts city centre that did the same thing.... Couple was spending £800 on a cake and asked for instead of man/woman on the top of the cake cud they put two men cake toppers on... Shop totally refused... The guys took there business elswhere and took the shop to the local papers did a story on them..... Rightly so aswell in my eyes!! taking them to the papers that is.... Bit over the top they got it done elsewhere that should be end of it why drag the original business name through mud because of this is totally ridiculous." Because they were discriminatory buggers? Do you not understand the hurt and division that this causes? | |||
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"Theres a cake shop in notts city centre that did the same thing.... Couple was spending £800 on a cake and asked for instead of man/woman on the top of the cake cud they put two men cake toppers on... Shop totally refused... The guys took there business elswhere and took the shop to the local papers did a story on them..... Rightly so aswell in my eyes!! taking them to the papers that is.... Bit over the top they got it done elsewhere that should be end of it why drag the original business name through mud because of this is totally ridiculous. Because they were discriminatory buggers? Do you not understand the hurt and division that this causes?" Or the simple fact that businesses are open to everyone. Although it was about US law it really is worth just watching the section of The Good Wife explaining why business cannot act in a discriminatory way on protected characteristics. | |||
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"Theres a cake shop in notts city centre that did the same thing.... Couple was spending £800 on a cake and asked for instead of man/woman on the top of the cake cud they put two men cake toppers on... Shop totally refused... The guys took there business elswhere and took the shop to the local papers did a story on them..... Rightly so aswell in my eyes!! taking them to the papers that is.... Bit over the top they got it done elsewhere that should be end of it why drag the original business name through mud because of this is totally ridiculous." So that other people can make an informed deacon about the illegal practices of the business? | |||
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"It seems you can have your gay cake and eat it.... "does a gay cake have pink icing..? who would have thought in such modern times we would put more labelling on our food stuffs.. crazy world.. | |||
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"It seems you can have your gay cake and eat it....
does a gay cake have pink icing..?
who would have thought in such modern times we would put more labelling on our food stuffs..
crazy world.. "Too be honest I find fault on both sides of this case.... | |||
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"It seems you can have your gay cake and eat it....
does a gay cake have pink icing..?
who would have thought in such modern times we would put more labelling on our food stuffs..
crazy world..
Too be honest I find fault on both sides of this case....
"it does appear to have been blown out of all proportion, maybe just use another bakery or have a code for what's written on any future cakes.. | |||
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"It seems you can have your gay cake and eat it....
does a gay cake have pink icing..?
who would have thought in such modern times we would put more labelling on our food stuffs..
crazy world..
Too be honest I find fault on both sides of this case....
it does appear to have been blown out of all proportion, maybe just use another bakery or have a code for what's written on any future cakes.."Yep trying another bakery works for me | |||
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Was wondering what this was about... | |||
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""Gay cake"?
Was wondering what this was about...
Tart"Who are you calling a tart? | |||
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"People will do anything for a few quid. Not saying these guys have but they could just go to another shop & when asked why this bakery then just say the others don't like gays. It seems easy to now say people's religious beliefs are wrong be it Christian, Muslim etc. everyone's beliefs should be respected. Wether we agree with them or not." surely if your providing a service then that service has to be the same across the board..? | |||
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""Gay cake"?
Was wondering what this was about...
Tart
Who are you calling a tart? "I'm sorry I get a kinda of dirt tourettes around you. | |||
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""Gay cake"?
Was wondering what this was about...
Tart
Who are you calling a tart?
I'm sorry I get a kinda of dirt tourettes around you. "And an ability to construct a grammatically correct sentence it seems. | |||
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""Gay cake"?
Was wondering what this was about...
Tart
Who are you calling a tart?
I'm sorry I get a kinda of dirt tourettes around you. "Google: rathergood touretteaphone | |||
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""Gay cake"?
Was wondering what this was about...
Tart
Who are you calling a tart?
I'm sorry I get a kinda of dirt tourettes around you.
Google: rathergood touretteaphone "Spunk flange jizz | |||
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"It seems you can have your gay cake and eat it....
does a gay cake have pink icing..?
who would have thought in such modern times we would put more labelling on our food stuffs..
crazy world..
Too be honest I find fault on both sides of this case....
"I agree. Although it now looks like the bakery will have had all their costs & fines paid for them. Cases like this remind me of the proxy wars of the Cold War. It will only end once the courts, rather than politicians, are allowed to rule on why religious leaders are still allowed to peddle the same nonsense. 
Mr ddc | |||
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"I think we should celebrate the verdict and make the 24th of October national gay cake day, now what type of cake should it be and it has to be pink my fav colour." Navy Cake for me.... | |||
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"People will do anything for a few quid. Not saying these guys have but they could just go to another shop & when asked why this bakery then just say the others don't like gays. It seems easy to now say people's religious beliefs are wrong be it Christian, Muslim etc. everyone's beliefs should be respected. Wether we agree with them or not. surely if your providing a service then that service has to be the same across the board..? " If a gay printer of leaflets has a Christian customer come in who wants leaflets printing that mention homosexuality being wrong. I would fully expect the printer to turn away said custom as is his right. People make a song & dance over everything. We will never live in a perfect world & cases like this just give the loons of the world more propaganda to work with | |||
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"Ok pink with navy sprinkles "  Pink face ....
Navy cake being sailor slang for taking it up the chuffer | |||
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""Gay cake"?
Was wondering what this was about..."I'm with Dj on this one, seeing the thread title Gaycake...my thoughts were...well not quite as the thread developed  | |||
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"Pmsl not familiar with that one only heard about captain pugwash is that one is that true. I'm so inersent " Do you mean the rumour about Seaman Stains, Master Bates and Roger the cabin-boy...... | |||
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"Apparently the bakers have been found guilty of discrimination for refusing to add the message on the cake saying "Support Gay Marriage" Repeat - they refused to write the message... In their defense, the bakers claim that finding them guilty "undermined their democratic freedom and free speech"... Er - wot...? It "undermines their freedom of speech" to say that they can't refuse somebody else's words...? Is it just me....? Gawd...!!!! "Too me there is an obvious intolerance from both parties which pretty much stagnates either sides ability to claim the moral high ground..... | |||
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"Pmsl not familiar with that one only heard about captain pugwash is that one is that true. I'm so inersent Do you mean the rumour about Seaman Stains, Master Bates and Roger the cabin-boy...... "I feel like my whole childhood entertainment has been torn away from me by jummy Savile | |||
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