FabSwingers.com forum: TTIP

By *gNe OP Man
over a year ago

Harrogate

Thoughts and opinions?

At the behest of Unleashed Cracken, i have started a new thread, was enjoying the intellectual discussion with him in a previous thread.

So to start off I shall rebut unleashed crackers previous post:

" Not sure what this has to do with hypocrisy so don't want to hijack this thread too much but, as you've asked I'll give my 2 pence worth but after that, if you want to carry this discussion on, I think you should start a thread in TTIP.

TTIP would boost trade at a time of continuing economic crisis. That means more business opportunities, more growth and more jobs. Lower prices, a wider variety of products to choose from and confidence that products and services from both sides of the Atlantic meet the highest safety standards possible. It would also contribute to the prosperity of over 800 million EU and US citizens

Neither TTIP nor any other EU trade agreement requires countries to liberalise, deregulate or privatise public services at national or local level.

This includes:

? public health

? state education

? public transport

? water collection, purification, distribution and management.

In its trade agreements, the EU always underlines its commitment to protecting public utilities at all levels of government, including the local level. Any decision to liberalise, deregulate or privatise such services is entirely up to national governments and local authorities. Trade agreements will not change that; TTIP will not change that.

Nor will TTIP require EU governments or public health services to put anything out to private contract.

Some EU countries have chosen to allow firms from countries outside the EU to provide private education and health services; others have not. This is entirely a choice of each national government.

If an EU government decides to renationalise a service that it or a previous government had privatised or contracted out to a private company, it is free to do so. It would, of course have to respect its own national laws and EU law - for example, by paying compensation for expropriation.

TTIP WILL NOT ALLOW COMPANIES TO SUE GOVERMENTS FOR LOST PROFITS. "

Firstly as I said previously, I question how much of this economic growth will actually filter down to the average household. I have seen estimates in the region of 15 pence per month..

Your assertion that companies will not be able to sue governments is incorrect. One of the main caveats of the deal, is the inclusion of Investor-state dispute settlements which effectively allows companies to sue governments for loss of profits. For an example of how this may look, take a glance at the German government, currently being sued by Swedish energy company for the loss of trade due to the phasing out of nuclear power plants in the wake of the Japan earthquakes. This is a huge threat to democracy, and we cannot even vote on the issue!!

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I'm not a fan of it.

My entire philosophy of politics is if politicians are for it, I'm against it.

Apart from that it's just another bullshit scheme by the wealthy to shaft people they couldn't before.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

My entire philosophy of politics is if politicians are for it, I'm against it.

Do you know I'd never have guessed.

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By *gNe OP Man
over a year ago

Harrogate

My entire philosophy of politics is if politicians are for it, I'm against it.

Do you know I'd never have guessed.

What's your opinion on the whole thing then mert?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

My entire philosophy of politics is if politicians are for it, I'm against it.

Do you know I'd never have guessed.

What's your opinion on the whole thing then mert? "

Well your OP seems to be saying that democracy is somehow threatened.

Well. Except it's not.

The whole fucking thing is democracy in action because if it WASN'T the German Government could never be sued by a private company.

Re read what you have written.

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By *ophieslutTV/TS
over a year ago

Central

Absolutely not a fan of it.

It is something that we should be offered a referendum on, more so than EU membership.

Money does not trickle or filter down somehow.

It would provide a race to the bottom for standards. Products and services delivered with lowest quality standards and protection. Shorter, if any, guarantees. Limited or no comeback.

Employment protection and rights shot.

We will get the worst of all worlds and not the best.

EU standards are often far higher than USA standards, so we would slip downwards.

Bad for citizens, employees and many businesses here.

Tax would be dodged and not paid even more so than currently, so our country would decline. We are a small nation that would be easily dominated by US corporations.

Worst thing is that it's being done in top secret, without consultation.

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By *gNe OP Man
over a year ago

Harrogate

My entire philosophy of politics is if politicians are for it, I'm against it.

Do you know I'd never have guessed.

What's your opinion on the whole thing then mert?

Well your OP seems to be saying that democracy is somehow threatened.

Well. Except it's not.

The whole fucking thing is democracy in action because if it WASN'T the German Government could never be sued by a private company.

Re read what you have written.

You re-read it, and then come back with something sensible, rather than trying to patronise me with ill informed gobbledygook.

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By *gNe OP Man
over a year ago

Harrogate

"Absolutely not a fan of it.

It is something that we should be offered a referendum on, more so than EU membership.

Money does not trickle or filter down somehow.

It would provide a race to the bottom for standards. Products and services delivered with lowest quality standards and protection. Shorter, if any, guarantees. Limited or no comeback.

Employment protection and rights shot.

We will get the worst of all worlds and not the best.

EU standards are often far higher than USA standards, so we would slip downwards.

Bad for citizens, employees and many businesses here.

Tax would be dodged and not paid even more so than currently, so our country would decline. We are a small nation that would be easily dominated by US corporations.

Worst thing is that it's being done in top secret, without consultation. "

Entirely my opinion. Interested in a logical response from the other side.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

My entire philosophy of politics is if politicians are for it, I'm against it.

Do you know I'd never have guessed.

"
.

I was born awkward... That and there all lying scum out to shaft you blind, they've never done anything decent in their lives and if they did there'd probably brake out in an allergy rash.

If they like it, it's because there's a multitude of huge corporations telling them to like it and vote for it and tell you suckers it's good for you, you've never had it so good, you lucky bastards should consider yourself dammed lucky for being born in a country of war hero's ,freedom and MacDonald's and not born in some shithole with aids and Ebola... Sorry I think the awkward bit kicked in there for a min

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

My entire philosophy of politics is if politicians are for it, I'm against it.

Do you know I'd never have guessed.

What's your opinion on the whole thing then mert?

Well your OP seems to be saying that democracy is somehow threatened.

Well. Except it's not.

The whole fucking thing is democracy in action because if it WASN'T the German Government could never be sued by a private company.

Re read what you have written.

You re-read it, and then come back with something sensible, rather than trying to patronise me with ill informed gobbledygook. "

That is the last time I reply to you.

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By *gNe OP Man
over a year ago

Harrogate

My entire philosophy of politics is if politicians are for it, I'm against it.

Do you know I'd never have guessed.

What's your opinion on the whole thing then mert?

Well your OP seems to be saying that democracy is somehow threatened.

Well. Except it's not.

The whole fucking thing is democracy in action because if it WASN'T the German Government could never be sued by a private company.

Re read what you have written.

You re-read it, and then come back with something sensible, rather than trying to patronise me with ill informed gobbledygook.

That is the last time I reply to you. "

Good, I know your style. Throwaway comments intended to score cheap points. Tried having a bit of banter with you before, but your not interested, cause yah just want to try impress the ladies. Fair play mate no qualms about that. Polite request though; don't post drivel in response to anything I have to say, cheers.

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By *nleashedCrakenMan
over a year ago

Widnes

Transatlantic Trade and Investment Partnership (TTIP)

"Thoughts and opinions?

At the behest of Unleashed Cracken, i have started a new thread, was enjoying the intellectual discussion with him in a previous thread.

So to start off I shall rebut unleashed crackers previous post:

Not sure what this has to do with hypocrisy so don't want to hijack this thread too much but, as you've asked I'll give my 2 pence worth but after that, if you want to carry this discussion on, I think you should start a thread in TTIP.

Neither TTIP nor any other EU trade agreement requires countries to liberalise, deregulate or privatise public services at national or local level.

This includes:

? public health

? state education

? public transport

? water collection, purification, distribution and management.

Nor will TTIP require EU governments or public health services to put anything out to private contract.

Some EU countries have chosen to allow firms from countries outside the EU to provide private education and health services; others have not. This is entirely a choice of each national government.

TTIP WILL NOT ALLOW COMPANIES TO SUE GOVERMENTS FOR LOST PROFITS.

Firstly as I said previously, I question how much of this economic growth will actually filter down to the average household. I have seen estimates in the region of 15 pence per month..

This is another scare story put out by anti-capitalists. Investor State Dispute Settlement (ISDS) has been around in one form or another since the end of world war II. It is a fundamental part of many free trade agreements. ISDS agreements currently exist between all members of the EU and EFTA (European Free Trade Ares). ISDS does not allow companies to sue governments for loss of profits, what it does allow is for companies to recover their investment if a government changes the rules. For example, if a government was to contract out the building of a power station to a private company and that company spent a large amount of money that was not recoverable in preparation for building the power station. If then, for no other reason than that it chose to, that government decided not to build the power station, under ISDS agreements the company can claim the money it has spent, in good faith and in accordance with the agreed contract, back from the government that has chosen to break the contract. The company can only sue or claim back what it has actually spent and that is not recoverable; it cannot sue for any potential loss of future profits.

All TTIP is doing in relation to ISDS is extending the framework which currently exists within EFTA to cover the USA as well.

It seems to me only right that governments should be held liable for costs incurred in its behalf and by its bequest, just as any other organisation is.

And now I'm off to Benidorm for a week.

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By *nleashedCrakenMan
over a year ago

Widnes

Bequest. grrrr. I keep making these stupid mistakes. I meant behest.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Oooookkkkkk

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

*wonders how long till the codex allimentarus gets brought up* that was the legislation of choice for crack pots a while ago

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"*wonders how long till the codex allimentarus gets brought up* that was the legislation of choice for crack pots a while ago"

There's no need to wonder now that you've brought it up.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Just wondered if you were an LSE student mocking the sheep?

Just a question not an allegation.

I've found in my life our democracy is a sham and the security services and our police are more interested in keeping US the people under control than protecting US the people from harm.

Democracy is not perfect but in truth we have never really had it yet and it's sliding backwards.

This said I'd sooner have a flawed democracy than be dictated to by self appointed arseholes who think they are in some way superior in the same way the Hitler youth did but based on going to the LSE or being Fabians.

Marxists and Nazis's should put up against the same wall and shot but only after greedy capitalist bastards get it first!

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By *nleashedCrakenMan
over a year ago

Widnes

"Absolutely not a fan of it.

It is something that we should be offered a referendum on, more so than EU membership.

Money does not trickle or filter down somehow.

It's not about money trickling down it's about increased consumer choice, increased sales and increased production.

It would provide a race to the bottom for standards. Products and services delivered with lowest quality standards and protection. Shorter, if any, guarantees. Limited or no comeback.

Why should it be a race to the bottom? It's about harmonisation of standards, not lowering. If harmonisation within EFTA (of which the EU is part) is anything to go by that normally means raising standards across the free trade area to the level of the best.

Employment protection and rights shot.

TTIP would have little if any influence on employment law. If you think otherwise could you please provide an example of how it is going to effect it.

We will get the worst of all worlds and not the best.

Can you back that statement up with some examples.

EU standards are often far higher than USA standards, so we would slip downwards.

That's just simply not true. In some cases EU standards are slightly higher than US in others they are slightly lower. The process of harmonisation normally ends up with the higher standard but sometimes, on closer examination, it is decided that the higher standard is really higher than necessary.

Bad for citizens, employees and many businesses here.

Using facts, not unsubstantiated propaganda, how is it bad for citizens, employees or any business here?

Tax would be dodged and not paid even more so than currently, so our country would decline. We are a small nation that would be easily dominated by US corporations.

That's totally non sequitur. How on earth does either having or not having a free trade agreement with anyone affect Tax Evasion?

Worst thing is that it's being done in top secret, without consultation. "

Then it's the worst kept secret since before humans thought of keeping things secret.

The negotiators are completely open, there is nothing secret about them at all. If they were being held in secret how come every one on this thread knows (or thinks they know) so much about it.

All the information relating to TTIP, the current state of the negotiators and anything else you want to know about it is easily available on many sites.

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By *nleashedCrakenMan
over a year ago

Widnes

My entire philosophy of politics is if politicians are for it, I'm against it.

Do you know I'd never have guessed.

What's your opinion on the whole thing then mert?

Well your OP seems to be saying that democracy is somehow threatened.

Well. Except it's not.

The whole fucking thing is democracy in action because if it WASN'T the German Government could never be sued by a private company.

Re read what you have written.

You re-read it, and then come back with something sensible, rather than trying to patronise me with ill informed gobbledygook.

That is the last time I reply to you. "

You shouldn't let yourself be put of so easily. I thought your point about the fact that the German government could be sued being an example of democracy at work was quite a good and valid point.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Well out of interest I googled "TTIP is bad" and one of the links I read was virtually word for word what the OP's argument is. It all makes so much more sense now I know it's pretty much lifted from the comments section of various newspaper sites. Either that or you must be awfully busy running all of those different profiles.

As for what I think about TTIP, as has happened before, UnleashedCraken has already given a better summary of what I think than I could have put into words.

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By *fcdTV/TS
over a year ago

Southend

TTIP is one of the most evil pieces of legislation in recent years. and that's saying something.

Governments are now just pawns or supranational corporations and TTIP is a symptom of that. You think things are bad now? Just you wait.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Aliens. Bound to be them there aliens infiltrating society and setting the foundations in place for world domination.

Or the communists. For the same reason.

Actually, what if the communists ARE the aliens

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By *gNe OP Man
over a year ago

Harrogate

"Well out of interest I googled "TTIP is bad" and one of the links I read was virtually word for word what the OP's argument is. It all makes so much more sense now I know it's pretty much lifted from the comments section of various newspaper sites. Either that or you must be awfully busy running all of those different profiles.

As for what I think about TTIP, as has happened before, UnleashedCraken has already given a better summary of what I think than I could have put into words. "

Profiles? What you on about? And yes my information IS gathered from various different newspapers, amongst other things. Where do you get yours from?

I'm not really interested in your shotgun appraisal of something after a 5 minute Google anyway. Lol so sanctimonious.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"TTIP is one of the most evil pieces of legislation in recent years. and that's saying something.

Governments are now just pawns or supranational corporations and TTIP is a symptom of that. You think things are bad now? Just you wait."

couple this with the repealing of the human rights act. its going back to the good ole days of dickens

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By *gNe OP Man
over a year ago

Harrogate

My entire philosophy of politics is if politicians are for it, I'm against it.

Do you know I'd never have guessed.

What's your opinion on the whole thing then mert?

Well your OP seems to be saying that democracy is somehow threatened.

Well. Except it's not.

The whole fucking thing is democracy in action because if it WASN'T the German Government could never be sued by a private company.

Re read what you have written.

You re-read it, and then come back with something sensible, rather than trying to patronise me with ill informed gobbledygook.

That is the last time I reply to you.

You shouldn't let yourself be put of so easily. I thought your point about the fact that the German government could be sued being an example of democracy at work was quite a good and valid point."

So an unelected body can sue and thus effectively dictate the economic policies of democratically elected governments, and that is a good example of democracy at work..?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

As for what I think about TTIP, as has happened before, UnleashedCraken has already given a better summary of what I think than I could have put into words.

Profiles? What you on about? And yes my information IS gathered from various different newspapers, amongst other things. Where do you get yours from?

I'm not really interested in your shotgun appraisal of something after a 5 minute Google anyway. Lol so sanctimonious. "

You misunderstand me. I know what I think, the 5 minute Google was to look at some of the counter-arguments which are being put forward. As I've already stated, there's no point me re-writing what another posted on the thread has written, because he's put it more succinctly than me already.

Nothing sanctimonious about querying the difference between gathering information from various sources and cutting and pasting directly as though they were your own words.

Sanctimonious is having a slightly different to the the mainstream view and thinking this automatically makes you open-minded, while showing yourself entirely closed-minded towards anything which doesn't accord with that view. Crack on.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

You shouldn't let yourself be put of so easily. I thought your point about the fact that the German government could be sued being an example of democracy at work was quite a good and valid point."

Lol.

Apparently according to the OP I'm all "Gobbledegook" "Drivel" and "Ill informed".

The OP should probably debate something he actually understands and less like he just read it off a blog.

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By *gNe OP Man
over a year ago

Harrogate

All TTIP is doing in relation to ISDS is extending the framework which currently exists within EFTA to cover the USA as well.

It seems to me only right that governments should be held liable for costs incurred in its behalf and by its bequest, just as any other organisation is.

And now I'm off to Benidorm for a week."

Some interesting points. We must bear in mind that much of what you say is opinion based still rather than fact. I hope you are right, as there doesn't look to be anything we can do about it.

Must point out that the private company/public sector work example that you gave is slightly misleading. Surely under that example the company is covered by contract law anyway..? As my understanding is, TTIP will hypothetically allow let's say US fracking companies to set up operations under our current government. If another party comes into power next time around, and due to mounting pressures from the public decides we need to stop fracking. The fracking company can now sue our government under the treaty itself, rather than through the direct breach of any contract. Which obviously means that they are sue-ing all of us. In reality though the gov in charge will likely not risk being sued, and as such will allow large multinationals to dictate future policy. That is the threat to democracy.

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By *ugby 123Couple
Forum Mod
over a year ago

O o O oo

Ok please keep it civil or Admin won't want these types of threads on here at all

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By *ugby 123Couple
Forum Mod
over a year ago

O o O oo

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