FabSwingers.com forum: Too many people going to University

By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

In the 1970s about 10% of young people progressed to University. All these Universities were great and taught good subjects at high standards.

About 50% of young people go to University now. Unfortunately, there are many bad Universities that teach at poor standards and offer degrees that are rather silly.

Today there are clearly too many graduates. A consequence is that the labour market has become saturated with so called University educated people. The excess supply of graduates has resulted in employers being able to enforce a culture of unpiad internships on those who leave University saddled with excessive debt many will never be able to fully pay back.

Students spend £9,000 per year on tuition fees today and there is evidence to suggest that the conservatives want to raise the tuition fee to £16,000.

There are too many people going to University and it is not helping everyone that goes. Many people who have graduated from Uni recently would arguably be in a better position if they would have done an apprenticeship rather than go to University.

I recommend that all the bad Universities (Polytechnics) should be closed down and more people should do apprenticeships. Sending fewer people to University would save money. Therefore, the tuition fee could be lowered for those people who did go.

What do you say?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Your Back

is what i say

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

completely agree...

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Apprenticeships are useless without the jobs to go with them too. My son's done a building apprenticeship from the age of 13 and there's loads of building going on round here but they brought in people from other areas to work here.

Why not let people go to uni? I want to go and study forensic sciences, am studying molecular biology right now and finding it easy coz i have found a good, free tutor.

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By *ionaScarletTV/TS
over a year ago

Dundee

In the 1970s we still had some heavy industry.

Its a knowledge based postindustrial economy now.

Are there too many graduates? possibly...

Is there anywhere else for young people to go... nope!

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

"Apprenticeships are useless without the jobs to go with them too. My son's done a building apprenticeship from the age of 13 and there's loads of building going on round here but they brought in people from other areas to work here.

Why not let people go to uni? I want to go and study forensic sciences, am studying molecular biology right now and finding it easy coz i have found a good, free tutor. "

I have got nothing against people going to University provided they learn a proper University subject and are capable of studying it at a high standard.

In the 1970s people could get a good job with O and A levels. The reason why people need a degree now is because everyone has one.

There are too many immigrants coming here. I sympathise with you and your son. Personally, I would like this country to have an Australian based points system so we can control immigration.

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

[Removed by poster at 11/05/15 02:04:14]

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

"In the 1970s we still had some heavy industry.

Its a knowledge based postindustrial economy now.

Are there too many graduates? possibly...

Is there anywhere else for young people to go... nope!"

Many good jobs today were also available in the 1970s and people did them with just O and A levels. The technical difficulty of many jobs have remain unchanged.

What has changed is the volume of people going to University. The excess supply of graduates means that the good jobs that were once non graduate jobs have become graduate jobs.

Going to University is making many people poorer because they have to pay £9,000 per year and forgo 3 years of full time income to get a piece of paper that is really not required at all.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Why not let people go to uni? I want to go and study forensic sciences, am studying molecular biology right now and finding it easy coz i have found a good, free tutor.

I have got nothing against people going to University provided they learn a proper University subject and are capable of studying it at a high standard.

In the 1970s people could get a good job with O and A levels. The reason why people need a degree now is because everyone has one.

There are too many immigrants coming here. I sympathise with you and your son. Personally, I would like this country to have an Australian based points system so we can control immigration."

The problem is you can't bring in someone to state what is and isn't a proper university subject. I have friends that do Nuclear Engineering that would consider a BA in English to be a "Mickey Mouse degree". There's nothing that you shouldn't be able to study if you have the passion for it, that's the best thing about academia. You have to remember that not everyone views a degree as just something they need to do before getting a job.

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By *anchestercubMan
over a year ago

manchester & NI

When I've heard politicians in the past talk about this subject, and they say university isn't for every child, they never mean their own child.

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By *ionaScarletTV/TS
over a year ago

Dundee

"In the 1970s we still had some heavy industry.

Its a knowledge based postindustrial economy now.

Are there too many graduates? possibly...

Is there anywhere else for young people to go... nope!

Many good jobs today were also available in the 1970s and people did them with just O and A levels. The technical difficulty of many jobs have remain unchanged.

What has changed is the volume of people going to University. The excess supply of graduates means that the good jobs that were once non graduate jobs have become graduate jobs.

Going to University is making many people poorer because they have to pay £9,000 per year and forgo 3 years of full time income to get a piece of paper that is really not required at all."

Granted - but the root of it lies in the destruction of heavy industry. Kids that might have once got a decently paying job in the coal mines, or steel and shipbuilding industries now have no option but to pursue higher education.

Apprenticeships are no use without the associated industries. No point in training thousands of welders if there is nothing to weld.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Why not let people go to uni? I want to go and study forensic sciences, am studying molecular biology right now and finding it easy coz i have found a good, free tutor.

I have got nothing against people going to University provided they learn a proper University subject and are capable of studying it at a high standard.

In the 1970s people could get a good job with O and A levels. The reason why people need a degree now is because everyone has one.

There are too many immigrants coming here. I sympathise with you and your son. Personally, I would like this country to have an Australian based points system so we can control immigration."

A proper subject? Pray tell what one of those would be?

Oh and people that come here to go to uni tend to pay a damn sight more than UK 'home' students. Nice turn around to some immigration talk though. Cos we need more of that right now....

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Why not let people go to uni? I want to go and study forensic sciences, am studying molecular biology right now and finding it easy coz i have found a good, free tutor.

I have got nothing against people going to University provided they learn a proper University subject and are capable of studying it at a high standard.

In the 1970s people could get a good job with O and A levels. The reason why people need a degree now is because everyone has one.

There are too many immigrants coming here. I sympathise with you and your son. Personally, I would like this country to have an Australian based points system so we can control immigration.

A proper subject? Pray tell what one of those would be?

Oh and people that come here to go to uni tend to pay a damn sight more than UK 'home' students. Nice turn around to some immigration talk though. Cos we need more of that right now...."

This

The job atmosphere has changed a lot since the 1970's: technology has changed and a high percentage of women in work now. Granted that not everyone is suited to higher education and there's not the jobs out there for grads, or some jobs are better as apprenticeships. But I commend youngsters who make the effort to improve themselves, rather than some who want a life on the dole...

I've just recently acquired a BA in archaeology and Ancient History from a 'red brick' uni as a mature student, and now doing a masters. Is that a 'proper' degree? May not be enough jobs in archaeology, but the skills which are taught are very transferable to other occupations.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

It's true that the value of a degree has diminished and I'd agree there are some degree level courses that should be scrapped and that the entrance is too easy for a few...

However I don't see it as a bad thing that more kids get to study at University. The more the population can be educated the better. It just needs a better system for indicating the actual academic achievement achieved.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

There are no jobs when people leave college so is it not better to further your education, gain qualificatuons and have a better chance of getting the jobs you apply for? Too many people going to uni? Everyone has the right to better themselves.

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By *ust_for_laughsCouple
over a year ago

Hinckley

And fuck off with the 'all former polytechnics are bad universities' shtick!

However, I almost agree with you!

A university education should be free, however, you shouldn't be able to get into University on 2 D's and an E at A Level (despite the fact that I'm currently at university having first done an Access course)

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"And fuck off with the 'all former polytechnics are bad universities' shtick!

However, I almost agree with you!

I don't agree on always looking at A level grades . It's not always an indicator of not performing well at university . I've seen students with poor grades get a 1st class degree from a good university . They just didnt have the exam technique at the A level stage.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

There are too many people studying degree subjects at university. It's a while since I went, but even then, everyone at school with more than about 3 GCSEs was being pushed to go, it was the only option being put forward for people. Even if they would have liked to explore something else, it wasn't presented as available. So people with 3 Es started courses, because it was just what you did, had no real desire to be there and mostly pissed their loans up the wall while the universities had to put on basic classes in how to write an essay, or how to do maths, because people not cut out for it were on these courses. It's not an insult or a condemnation to say that not everyone is cut out for academic study, many just aren't and don't want to be.

I disagree that the polys should be closed though, they should be encouraged to go back to their original purpose.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

There are plenty of non industrial companies such as Sky and the BBC that offer apprenticeships in a wide range of areas.

Everyone has a choice, if someone wants to go to university to better themselves, irrespective of the perceived quality of that institution, who should say they can't?

What should be made clear however is that a degree is not necessarily going to lead to a high paid job, and that the alternatives might be equally attractive.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"And fuck off with the 'all former polytechnics are bad universities' shtick!

However, I almost agree with you!

I agree up to a point, in the sense that on my course it was the AAB or ABB people who got firsts, because they tended to be from state schools or poorer backgrounds, rather than the ones with a clutch of As, and were more self reliant and able to self-study than some of the private school kids who were used to being spoon fed and tutored to the hilt. If you're getting Es at A Level though there are fundamental skills missing like essay writing and critical thinking.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"And fuck off with the 'all former polytechnics are bad universities' shtick!

However, I almost agree with you!

Some of the ones I knew - were too busy going out ! They'd have got the grades otherwise . But when they knuckled down at Uni - they nailed it.

Dare I say - they were all males too!

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"In the 1970s we still had some heavy industry.

Its a knowledge based postindustrial economy now.

Are there too many graduates? possibly...

Is there anywhere else for young people to go... nope!"
.

Exactly.

Plus student debt is good in a debt based monetary system, that's why they put it up to 9k! Loading the population with debt is what makes the world go round according to some highly university educated economists!.

On a personally social aspect I think university is an amazing advancement in a young persons life, one I wish I'd personally had

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"In the 1970s we still had some heavy industry.

Its a knowledge based postindustrial economy now.

This.

We are not an industrial nation. We need people with the skills that university degrees teach (yes, even those that people think are 'silly') in order to survive in a clean, tech-based world.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"And fuck off with the 'all former polytechnics are bad universities' shtick!

However, I almost agree with you!

Some of the ones I knew - were too busy going out ! They'd have got the grades otherwise . But when they knuckled down at Uni - they nailed it.

Dare I say - they were all males too!

My experience (they were all males too as it happens) was that with the freedom of university they didn't have the motivation for self study, and most of them didn't end up graduating. I didn't really know anyone who didn't want to knuckle down at school who then knuckled down at university once they were living away from their parents, had no teachers to answer to and could go out and get d*unk every night. It went more the other way in a few cases. They all had fun though I'm sure. (I appreciate that's just my experience though!)

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"And fuck off with the 'all former polytechnics are bad universities' shtick!

However, I almost agree with you!

I failed multiple A-Levels. I scored terribly in almost everything. I didn't get on with school life or school teaching. I was diverted into the wrong subjects because I was 'bad at writing'.

I'm now at university and I'm well on track to get a first. I regularly get scores of 80-85% in my essay writing and critical thinking assignments.

I'm also a freelance writer. I earn more money writing for magazines two or three days a month than alot of people do in their full time jobs.

I have an ex-polytechnic to thank for this. For five years I applied to various universities, and for those five years I was rejected by everyone except the university I am currently at, who gave me a chance. They lowered their entry barrier for me and gave me a chance. I'm now one of their top performing students in the department. I'm currently negotiating the possibility research postgraduate degrees with OxBridge and other redbricks - although to be honest, I may well stay at the polytechnic because I love the environment.

According to many, I don't deserve to be at university. Or I shouldn't have been allowed in. But I'm flourishing. And I'm doing well for myself. In a subject area that most people think is 'silly'.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I believe one issue is that people go to university to study a subject their unsure of whether it's for them or not. Spend all the money and then at the end of it unsure of what to do.

A lot of younger people feel they have to go to university, I myself went the long way around and ended up with a high level degree. But that was after I took two years out to find what I wanted to do.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"In the 1970s about 10% of young people progressed to University. All these Universities were great and taught good subjects at high standards.

About 50% of young people go to University now. Unfortunately, there are many bad Universities that teach at poor standards and offer degrees that are rather silly.

Students spend £9,000 per year on tuition fees today and there is evidence to suggest that the conservatives want to raise the tuition fee to £16,000.

What do you say?"

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"And fuck off with the 'all former polytechnics are bad universities' shtick!

However, I almost agree with you!

I failed multiple A-Levels. I scored terribly in almost everything. I didn't get on with school life or school teaching. I was diverted into the wrong subjects because I was 'bad at writing'.

I'm now at university and I'm well on track to get a first. I regularly get scores of 80-85% in my essay writing and critical thinking assignments.

I'm also a freelance writer. I earn more money writing for magazines two or three days a month than alot of people do in their full time jobs.

According to many, I don't deserve to be at university. Or I shouldn't have been allowed in. But I'm flourishing. And I'm doing well for myself. In a subject area that most people think is 'silly'."

But if you'd been steered towards more appropriate subjects in the first place there might not have been a problem?

Ok, my points on this thread have been influenced by my own experiences of people I went to school with and some of the graduate applicants I now see coming through when involved in recruitment to training posts; that's all I can go off.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

It's a bit late saying too many people are getting degrees now - they already have them. The degree is already diminished.

If you're bothered about your academic credentials you'll study higher. If not you'll get on with your career and build your credentials another way.

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By *inaTitzTV/TS
over a year ago

Titz Towers, North Notts

It's one way that people can better themselves. There are other ways, but getting a degree does open doors.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I believe one issue is that people go to university to study a subject their unsure of whether it's for them or not. Spend all the money and then at the end of it unsure of what to do.

This is just life. I studied my subject for 6 years. My career's had very little to do with what I studied.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I believe one issue is that people go to university to study a subject their unsure of whether it's for them or not. Spend all the money and then at the end of it unsure of what to do.

This is just life. I studied my subject for 6 years. My career's had very little to do with what I studied.

Like a good song, i have found some of the most interesting 40 year olds still don't know what to do in their life

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I believe one issue is that people go to university to study a subject their unsure of whether it's for them or not. Spend all the money and then at the end of it unsure of what to do.

This is just life. I studied my subject for 6 years. My career's had very little to do with what I studied.

Building a career and experience I agree is key no matter what route you take. But I still feel some do degrees just because it's there, not because it's what they want to do. At the same time though some degrees can lead to other opportunities.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I believe one issue is that people go to university to study a subject their unsure of whether it's for them or not. Spend all the money and then at the end of it unsure of what to do.

This is just life. I studied my subject for 6 years. My career's had very little to do with what I studied.

I studied mine to postgraduate level and I now work in a completely and utterly unrelated field. But I'd still study that subject again, because that's what I was interested in.

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By *ee VianteWoman
over a year ago

Somewhere in North Norfolk

Was it not a political goal a few years ago to get more young people to university?

I'm sure that was nothing to do with keeping off the unemployment statistics for a few years though.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Was it not a political goal a few years ago to get more young people to university?

I'm sure that was nothing to do with keeping off the unemployment statistics for a few years though."

Well there was a government target for 50% of all young people to go to university, set in 1999 under the Labour govenrment, yes.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I believe one issue is that people go to university to study a subject their unsure of whether it's for them or not. Spend all the money and then at the end of it unsure of what to do.

This is just life. I studied my subject for 6 years. My career's had very little to do with what I studied.

I studied mine to postgraduate level and I now work in a completely and utterly unrelated field. But I'd still study that subject again, because that's what I was interested in. "
.

I've studied your arse to post graduate level and I'm thinking of branching out into tit studying, I was told this is the place for tits and arises, it's like open university for pervs

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Like a good song, i have found some of the most interesting 40 year olds still don't know what to do in their life

and a decent education gives you the confidence to keep looking, no matter how long it takes..

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I also think there's a lot of young people who might not be best placed going to university when they're 18 but would be better going later. We've had a few apprentices at work who've done 3 years with us and then decided that actually they do want to study, and have been incredibly successful in what they've chosen to do. There's also loads of women I went to school with who wanted to leave as soon as they could and never do an exam again, but are now studying part time that they're in their late 20s and early 30s.

But it's much harder for people to study later in life and I think some of the support should be targeted towards mature students.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Like a good song, i have found some of the most interesting 40 year olds still don't know what to do in their life

and a decent education gives you the confidence to keep looking, no matter how long it takes..

"
.

Another arse.... It's study study study round here, I'm working my fingers to the bone

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"But if you'd been steered towards more appropriate subjects in the first place there might not have been a problem?

I was told at school I was stupid and couldn't write. Therefore I shouldn't attempt to do an essay subject. If someone had recognised that I was bored instead of stupid, then perhaps my life would have been very, very different.

In addition, I was thrown off my Art A-Level because I couldn't draw. My interest is in art history, not drawing. But there's no other pathway to it at state schools.

It took me ten years to figure out that the problem wasn't me, it was them.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

For sure. There are good degrees and crap ones as there are with universities. Sometimes I despair at some of the people who somehow get to Uni, but nonetheless I don't think too much education is generally a bad thing.

Unless you're doing a doctorate in swimming pool management etc.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"But it's much harder for people to study later in life and I think some of the support should be targeted towards mature students. "

Of course the big irony is, that if we close down lower performing unis, lower fees and stop taking as many immigrants, then far, far, far less people will have a chance at going to university. Only the very brightest *with the best records* would be able to continue their academic education.

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By *ee VianteWoman
over a year ago

Somewhere in North Norfolk

"Was it not a political goal a few years ago to get more young people to university?

I'm sure that was nothing to do with keeping off the unemployment statistics for a few years though.

Well there was a government target for 50% of all young people to go to university, set in 1999 under the Labour govenrment, yes. "

Stupid idea, whoever it was that thought it up.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Unless you're doing a doctorate in swimming pool management etc.

You know, I know that's a throwaway comment. But honestly. I used to work in leisure as my first career and I am qualified up to the eyeballs vocationally for spa and swimming pool management. Because actually, it's not easy and it is science. And you need people working at the top levels, doing PhD's in plant and pool management in order to filter down new technologies so that your local swimming pool can run a bit cheaper and within budget so that it doesn't shut down because nobody wants to pay more council tax. *And Breathe*.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Was it not a political goal a few years ago to get more young people to university?

I'm sure that was nothing to do with keeping off the unemployment statistics for a few years though.

Well there was a government target for 50% of all young people to go to university, set in 1999 under the Labour govenrment, yes.

Stupid idea, whoever it was that thought it up."

Great idea. Turns us from a dirty, industrial nation into a clean industry nation.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"But if you'd been steered towards more appropriate subjects in the first place there might not have been a problem?

In addition, I was thrown off my Art A-Level because I couldn't draw. My interest is in art history, not drawing. But there's no other pathway to it at state schools.

It took me ten years to figure out that the problem wasn't me, it was them."

I have friends (from my state school) who studied art history off the back of studying history at school. People seem surprised by that, as they do tend to lump it in with art when it's got a lot more in common with history and sociology from what I can see.

I think your experience was a failure on the part of your school, but I take your point that there will be others who are capable of academic study who've been let down by their school.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Like a good song, i have found some of the most interesting 40 year olds still don't know what to do in their life

and a decent education gives you the confidence to keep looking, no matter how long it takes..

Another arse.... It's study study study round here, I'm working my fingers to the bone

Some subjects are more difficult than others

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I believe one issue is that people go to university to study a subject their unsure of whether it's for them or not. Spend all the money and then at the end of it unsure of what to do.

This is just life. I studied my subject for 6 years. My career's had very little to do with what I studied.

I studied mine to postgraduate level and I now work in a completely and utterly unrelated field. But I'd still study that subject again, because that's what I was interested in. .

I've studied your arse to post graduate level and I'm thinking of branching out into tit studying, I was told this is the place for tits and arises, it's like open university for pervs

If you want to branch out into tits you're going to need 120 credits from a boob awareness access course.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Unless you're doing a doctorate in swimming pool management etc.

Funnily enough I studied BA Rec Man and BSc Sports Science and I'm certain that nobody needs a PhD in swimming pool management.

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By *obka3Couple
over a year ago

bournemouth

Builders etc are crying out for skilled workers as are many other industries the problem is kids have been told that working with your hands is a second class jobs, not everyone can be a pen pusher in an office we need people that "create" wealth by making/building stuff and less of the shufflers. The reason that we have huge numbers of foreign workers here is that too many of our kids wont do these jobs and before anyone says they don't pay enough how can these migrant workers live if the pay is that low. Too many here want to start at the top not work their way up.

In my view those who collect the rubbish from our houses and are carers for the elderly and sick do just as an important job as those sat in the swanky offices earning three times as much, we have our priorities wrong IMO

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Builders etc are crying out for skilled workers as are many other industries the problem is kids have been told that working with your hands is a second class jobs, not everyone can be a pen pusher in an office we need people that "create" wealth by making/building stuff and less of the shufflers. The reason that we have huge numbers of foreign workers here is that too many of our kids wont do these jobs and before anyone says they don't pay enough how can these migrant workers live if the pay is that low. Too many here want to start at the top not work their way up.

This is a problem too. Soon they'll make being a bricky a degree level occupation.

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By *ee VianteWoman
over a year ago

Somewhere in North Norfolk

"Was it not a political goal a few years ago to get more young people to university?

I'm sure that was nothing to do with keeping off the unemployment statistics for a few years though.

Well there was a government target for 50% of all young people to go to university, set in 1999 under the Labour govenrment, yes.

Stupid idea, whoever it was that thought it up.

Great idea. Turns us from a dirty, industrial nation into a clean industry nation."

Or unemployed ex-industry workers after the industry was closed down to unemployed people with degrees and expectations of walking straight into a job with a large salary.

At least when we were a dirty industrial nation we actually produced something. We're little but a big service centre now.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Unless you're doing a doctorate in swimming pool management etc.

"
.

Now you tell me..... I've just sent off for 30 quid of arm bands.

On a lighter note this countries main occupation is selling shit, managing shit, and regulating shit, regulating and managing shit takes alot of paperwork think of how knee deep in shit we'd be if it wasn't for all the regulations were knee deep in.

The Chinese certainly can't compete with our mastery of shit management

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By *educedWoman
over a year ago

Birmingham

"Was it not a political goal a few years ago to get more young people to university?

I'm sure that was nothing to do with keeping off the unemployment statistics for a few years though.

Well there was a government target for 50% of all young people to go to university, set in 1999 under the Labour govenrment, yes.

Stupid idea, whoever it was that thought it up."

Financing an undergraduate degree earns the Treasury £94,000 per student.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Both my kids went to uni ...one just about to graduate .. they had to fulfill a certain requirement to get in which meant them working hard at school to get brilliant A level results ..son did modern languages and is now fluent in several and now works abroad for a british company ... daughter needs a good english degree result to ensure she can take up her teacher training position shes been offered... dont think either would achieved their goals without uni

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By *ee VianteWoman
over a year ago

Somewhere in North Norfolk

"before anyone says they don't pay enough how can these migrant workers live if the pay is that low. Too many here want to start at the top not work their way up."

Have you seen how some of these migrant workers are willing to live?

Nobody should be expected to live in squalor. Every worker should be paid a reasonable living wage, by which I mean a wage they can afford to live on in reasonable conditions.

Try living on what some of them earn for a couple of months, without starting with a fully stocked freezer and larder etc., and then tell me if you think people should be expected to live on it.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

How much air passes though an air brick measuring 76mmx229mm with 15 slots measuring 200mmx15mm.

The adiabatic equation for earth sizing is. S= v(I²×t)/k.

Even building workers require an education these days you know

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"At least when we were a dirty industrial nation we actually produced something. We're little but a big service centre now."

You try telling me partner - a coder - that he doesn't 'produce something'.

Thinking that only material goods count as a product is naive.

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By *ath_Neil_bifunCouple
over a year ago

near cardiff

"In the 1970s about 10% of young people progressed to University. All these Universities were great and taught good subjects at high standards.

About 50% of young people go to University now. Unfortunately, there are many bad Universities that teach at poor standards and offer degrees that are rather silly.

Students spend £9,000 per year on tuition fees today and there is evidence to suggest that the conservatives want to raise the tuition fee to £16,000.

What do you say?"

Education a bad thing!and there's too many bloody immigrants....lol,this is a funny post

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By *ee VianteWoman
over a year ago

Somewhere in North Norfolk

"At least when we were a dirty industrial nation we actually produced something. We're little but a big service centre now.

You try telling me partner - a coder - that he doesn't 'produce something'.

Thinking that only material goods count as a product is naive."

Is there actually enough of a requirement for this clean industry to keep 50% of the population employed. The number of graduates unable to find work would suggest not. And does having 50% of people expecting to work in this clean industry provide sufficient resources for other requirements within the country? The suggestion that certain manual trades are short of workers would suggest not.

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By *oo hotCouple
over a year ago

North West

"before anyone says they don't pay enough how can these migrant workers live if the pay is that low. Too many here want to start at the top not work their way up.

Have you seen how some of these migrant workers are willing to live?

Nobody should be expected to live in squalor. Every worker should be paid a reasonable living wage, by which I mean a wage they can afford to live on in reasonable conditions.

Try living on what some of them earn for a couple of months, without starting with a fully stocked freezer and larder etc., and then tell me if you think people should be expected to live on it."

There is some new build houses under construction near to us and I walk past almost every day on the way to the post office.

The cars that these guys are driving do not indicate low pay. On the contrary. All but two of the cars have UK plates but the voices coming from the site have accents as far spread as Scotland to Spain and Poland to Ireland.

I realise that there are a lot of stories out there about poor pay and zero hours contracts but I think that if you have a building trade at the moment, it is time to make hay.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"At least when we were a dirty industrial nation we actually produced something. We're little but a big service centre now.

You try telling me partner - a coder - that he doesn't 'produce something'.

Thinking that only material goods count as a product is naive."

Technology, science and the arts are the things we should be investing in like never before as a country.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

how about an outright ban on poor people going to university? that would solve it.... sterilise the ones with ambitions other than stacking shelves on a zero hour contract..... breed ambition out of them and create a working underclass.... back to the good old days of downton

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"At least when we were a dirty industrial nation we actually produced something. We're little but a big service centre now.

You try telling me partner - a coder - that he doesn't 'produce something'.

Thinking that only material goods count as a product is naive.

Many of the clean industries are absolutely crying out for people to go and work in them. I know the company my partner works for are desperate for coders and IT-sympathetic project managers and their starting salary is about £45k a year with £5k stipends (and loads of great international travel).

I'm a writer, and a pretty low-standard one at that. Again the magazines are crying out for people who can write and produce content. Content is king nowadays with the internet, and the starting wage works out to about £35 an hour, freelance.

That's just two examples, sure. But I know that the industries of many of my friends are in similar situations. Desperate to get qualified people to come and work, but not enough people doing relevant degrees and postgraduate qualifications.

There are very, very, very few openings 'at the bottom', but there seem to be a decent amount of jobs available for those willing to take on responsibility and enter a fast-moving industry.

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By *ogistical NightmaresCouple
over a year ago

Manchester Area

"In the 1970s about 10% of young people progressed to University. All these Universities were great and taught good subjects at high standards.

About 50% of young people go to University now. Unfortunately, there are many bad Universities that teach at poor standards and offer degrees that are rather silly.

Students spend £9,000 per year on tuition fees today and there is evidence to suggest that the conservatives want to raise the tuition fee to £16,000.

What do you say?"

WOW!! Hope there are plenty of air bags / crash mats to help break your fall when you have finished pontificating from your ivory tower.

So..... what in your honest opinion qualifies as a "silly" degree course??

What makes polytechnics all "bad" ??Traditionally these were establishments offering the more vocational type qualifications. Are you saying that there shouldn`t be degree level courses available in vocational fields??

Going with your train of thought, does that mean that only people who went to xxxxxxx University as opposed to University of xxxxxxx have a right to the pick of all the best jobs. (This also means that Sydney University has more right to perv profiles on here than University of Sydney)

Tuition fees???? Nice little earner there for the educational establishments..... pay 9k per year to attend Uni for maybe 2-3 half days per week whilst stressing students out worrying about mounting debts.

Yes you are correct in that there is a culture of companies offering 12 month unpaid "internships". This is only because the government has allowed them to get away with it...... glorified slave labour, and that is straight out of the mouths of people who have done these "schemes". They are really an upmarket version of the schemes that Job Centre Plus inflict on people. " Go to @@@@@@@ on a work placement for no extra money or get sanctioned"

Divert people away from Uni into apprenticeships??? Successive governments starting with "Thatcher the Milk Snatcher" have successfully pulled the pants down and anally violated the majority of industries which were a large source of apprenticeships such as steel making, mining, shipbuilding, car manufacturing, railways, merchant navy. All other major industries have made more use of technological advances so they are not as labour intensive as in previous generations. Gone are the what were called proper indentured apprenticeships lasting 4,5 or 6 years, now being replaced with 1-2 year apprenticeships or a multitude of short courses or NVQ`s.

I can speak from experience of both sides of the coin. Gained an apprenticeship back in the day, later in life changed career direction, gained two "sensible" degree level qualifications from (Shush) University`s of XXXXXXXXXX

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By *ee VianteWoman
over a year ago

Somewhere in North Norfolk

"At least when we were a dirty industrial nation we actually produced something. We're little but a big service centre now.

You try telling me partner - a coder - that he doesn't 'produce something'.

Thinking that only material goods count as a product is naive.

There are very, very, very few openings 'at the bottom', but there seem to be a decent amount of jobs available for those willing to take on responsibility and enter a fast-moving industry."

Without openings at the bottom though, how can anyone be expected to get started and work their way up?

50% of young people with degrees and hardly any entry level positions isn't workable.

That said, I absolutely hope there are lots of opportunities higher up the food chain because I'm going to want to go back to work after my MSc.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"At least when we were a dirty industrial nation we actually produced something. We're little but a big service centre now.

You try telling me partner - a coder - that he doesn't 'produce something'.

Thinking that only material goods count as a product is naive.

Technology, science and the arts are the things we should be investing in like never before as a country.

"
.

It's a green party policy!... Just in case your thinking about next time

What does a nation do when you can no longer compete against low wages from the emerging countries

Well you could diversify into stuff they can't do, high tech, high spec, clean industries, this would of course come with great debt that would be ploughed into turning your original industrialised infrastructure into the one needed for the future, giving you the productivity to make wealth!.....

Or you could do what the UK,US has done which is fuck all and just rig the deck in your favour through monetary policy while you rape those countries of assets leaving them with nothing but debt!

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By *ee VianteWoman
over a year ago

Somewhere in North Norfolk

"At least when we were a dirty industrial nation we actually produced something. We're little but a big service centre now.

You try telling me partner - a coder - that he doesn't 'produce something'.

Thinking that only material goods count as a product is naive.

Technology, science and the arts are the things we should be investing in like never before as a country.

Fortunately my education and experience is in science and technology.

I've no talent for the Arts though.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Re: apprenticeships, they do not just have to be in heavy industry. More and more professional services firms are providing good apprenticeship opportunities as an alternative route to professional qualifications in things like accountancy.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Without openings at the bottom though, how can anyone be expected to get started and work their way up?

50% of young people with degrees and hardly any entry level positions isn't workable.

That said, I absolutely hope there are lots of opportunities higher up the food chain because I'm going to want to go back to work after my MSc."

Because the right skills skip much of the 'bottom'. That £45k entry position is more or less a graduate position. They take people on straight out of uni. My partner walked out of uni and into a £40k a year job as a system administrator assisting launching computer games (which, btw, we also have a really strong industry for in the UK).

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

"When I've heard politicians in the past talk about this subject, and they say university isn't for every child, they never mean their own child. "

That is because politicians send their children to better schools than most people.

They normally include: private schooling; grammar schools; schools that are located in rather expensive locations.

Basically, politicians send their children to schools that are not the typical bog-standard comprehensives that other parents unfortunately have to send their children to.

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By *oo hotCouple
over a year ago

North West

"When I've heard politicians in the past talk about this subject, and they say university isn't for every child, they never mean their own child.

That is because politicians send their children to better schools than most people.

They normally include: private schooling; grammar schools; schools that are located in rather expensive locations.

Basically, politicians send their children to schools that are not the typical bog-standard comprehensives that other parents unfortunately have to send their children to."

Shame we lost grammar schools really isn't it. We once had three Prime Ministers in a row who were educated in state schools. That will NEVER happen again.

At one time the best education was available to the most talented kids. The best education is now only available to kids with rich parents who can either afford to live in the best catchment areas or afford private.

Sad.

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

Why not let people go to uni? I want to go and study forensic sciences, am studying molecular biology right now and finding it easy coz i have found a good, free tutor.

I have got nothing against people going to University provided they learn a proper University subject and are capable of studying it at a high standard.

In the 1970s people could get a good job with O and A levels. The reason why people need a degree now is because everyone has one.

There are too many immigrants coming here. I sympathise with you and your son. Personally, I would like this country to have an Australian based points system so we can control immigration.

Not all Universities offer academic subjects.

At one time there was a so called university that offered a three year programme in BA Golf. Another University famously offered BA David Beckham! These sort of programmes are more like hobbies than challenging academic courses.

The older and more prestigious Universities do not offer these silly subjects. In my opinion, it was a mistake to allow the Polytechnics and the further education colleges to have University status.

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

"In the 1970s we still had some heavy industry.

Its a knowledge based postindustrial economy now.

Are there too many graduates? possibly...

Is there anywhere else for young people to go... nope!

Many good jobs today were also available in the 1970s and people did them with just O and A levels. The technical difficulty of many jobs have remain unchanged.

What has changed is the volume of people going to University. The excess supply of graduates means that the good jobs that were once non graduate jobs have become graduate jobs.

Going to University is making many people poorer because they have to pay £9,000 per year and forgo 3 years of full time income to get a piece of paper that is really not required at all.

Apprenticeships are no use without the associated industries. No point in training thousands of welders if there is nothing to weld."

In the 1970's people could get apprenticeships in both accountancy and insurance as well as many other things. Now these occupations, like many others, normally require a degree because everyone has got one.

In the future, window cleaners will probably need to have a BA in Window cleaning, crazy!

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"In the 1970s we still had some heavy industry.

Its a knowledge based postindustrial economy now.

Are there too many graduates? possibly...

Is there anywhere else for young people to go... nope!

Many good jobs today were also available in the 1970s and people did them with just O and A levels. The technical difficulty of many jobs have remain unchanged.

What has changed is the volume of people going to University. The excess supply of graduates means that the good jobs that were once non graduate jobs have become graduate jobs.

Going to University is making many people poorer because they have to pay £9,000 per year and forgo 3 years of full time income to get a piece of paper that is really not required at all.

Apprenticeships are no use without the associated industries. No point in training thousands of welders if there is nothing to weld.

In the future, window cleaners will probably need to have a BA in Window cleaning, crazy!"

Apprenticeships for training in jobs like accountancy and insurance are on the increase actually. In the firms as well as in government departments and councils.

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

Why not let people go to uni? I want to go and study forensic sciences, am studying molecular biology right now and finding it easy coz i have found a good, free tutor.

I have got nothing against people going to University provided they learn a proper University subject and are capable of studying it at a high standard.

In the 1970s people could get a good job with O and A levels. The reason why people need a degree now is because everyone has one.

There are too many immigrants coming here. I sympathise with you and your son. Personally, I would like this country to have an Australian based points system so we can control immigration.

A proper subject? Pray tell what one of those would be?

Oh and people that come here to go to uni tend to pay a damn sight more than UK 'home' students. Nice turn around to some immigration talk though. Cos we need more of that right now...."

Are you seriously suggesting that we require more immigration!

I suppose we could let more in, not like we have a choice. They will come here and push wages down even more. The only people who have benefited and will continue to benefit from mass immigration are the capitalists.

Eu students pay the same price as British students. Also, they get access to our student loan system. It is not unusual of EU students to go back to where they belong after they have graduated and not repay their student loan.

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

"It's true that the value of a degree has diminished and I'd agree there are some degree level courses that should be scrapped and that the entrance is too easy for a few...

Some degrees from certain Universities are as valuable as cheap toilet paper.

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

"There are no jobs when people leave college so is it not better to further your education, gain qualificatuons and have a better chance of getting the jobs you apply for? Too many people going to uni? Everyone has the right to better themselves."

Is someone has three D's at A level (DDD) then it is advisable for them to better themselves by improving their A level results rather than progressing to University to study a course that they are obviously not prepared for.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Yes, I was so obviously not prepared for university with my D grades and fails, that I'm averaging 75% in my assignments and exams - that's an A+ or a high first.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Eu students pay the same price as British students. Also, they get access to our student loan system. It is not unusual of EU students to go back to where they belong after they have graduated and not repay their student loan."

The EU students on my course do not have student loans, tuition fee loans or grants. They are all self funded. I didn't know that was possible.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Agree

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

Yes, I was so obviously not prepared for university with my D grades and fails, that I'm averaging 75% in my assignments and exams - that's an A+ or a high first."

I presume you got into a bad University that teaches at a bad standard.

I am not impressed that you are performing well at a bad standard. I suspect that employers will be equally as unimpressed.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Yes, I was so obviously not prepared for university with my D grades and fails, that I'm averaging 75% in my assignments and exams - that's an A+ or a high first.

I presume you got into a bad University that teaches at a bad standard.

I am not impressed that you are performing well at a bad standard. I suspect that employers will be equally as unimpressed."

I am performing well enough that Oxbridge are on the verge of making me postgraduate offers. Thanks.

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By *ust_for_laughsCouple
over a year ago

Hinckley

Yes, I was so obviously not prepared for university with my D grades and fails, that I'm averaging 75% in my assignments and exams - that's an A+ or a high first."

You're a mature student, it's not quite the same.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"You're a mature student, it's not quite the same."

I have not got any brighter since leaving school.

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

The EU students on my course do not have student loans, tuition fee loans or grants. They are all self funded. I didn't know that was possible."

Yes it is possible.

You yourself can go to a French or German University and receive the same funding and conditions as their domestic students too.

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

Yes, I was so obviously not prepared for university with my D grades and fails, that I'm averaging 75% in my assignments and exams - that's an A+ or a high first.

I presume you got into a bad University that teaches at a bad standard.

I am not impressed that you are performing well at a bad standard. I suspect that employers will be equally as unimpressed.

I am performing well enough that Oxbridge are on the verge of making me postgraduate offers. Thanks."

It is well documented that Oxbridge regularly whore their postgraduate programmes out at the highest price.

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By *ust_for_laughsCouple
over a year ago

Hinckley

Why not let people go to uni? I want to go and study forensic sciences, am studying molecular biology right now and finding it easy coz i have found a good, free tutor.

I have got nothing against people going to University provided they learn a proper University subject and are capable of studying it at a high standard.

In the 1970s people could get a good job with O and A levels. The reason why people need a degree now is because everyone has one.

There are too many immigrants coming here. I sympathise with you and your son. Personally, I would like this country to have an Australian based points system so we can control immigration.

Not all Universities offer academic subjects.

The older and more prestigious Universities do not offer these silly subjects. In my opinion, it was a mistake to allow the Polytechnics and the further education colleges to have University status."

What, like the former Polytechnic that I'm studying Criminology at, that is now in the top 40 universities in the UK (incidentally, the same university that my wife got her chemistry degree from, that enabled her to have the very successful career she now has)?

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By *ust_for_laughsCouple
over a year ago

Hinckley

"You're a mature student, it's not quite the same.

I have not got any brighter since leaving school."

However, you do have far more life experience, which counts for quite a lot when you get to university. I left school with 2 O Levels, went on to have successful careers in IT ava photography, then went back to school to do my Access course and was offered places at five universities, 2 former poly's, 3 red brick; I chose the former poly.

I wouldn't have got in with my O level results and I haven't got more intelligent since I left school.

If you wish to carry on being obtuse though, carry on.

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By *ust_for_laughsCouple
over a year ago

Hinckley

Yes, I was so obviously not prepared for university with my D grades and fails, that I'm averaging 75% in my assignments and exams - that's an A+ or a high first.

I presume you got into a bad University that teaches at a bad standard.

I am not impressed that you are performing well at a bad standard. I suspect that employers will be equally as unimpressed."

Wow, rude as well as ignorant and uninformed...good effort, fella!

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

It is well documented that Oxbridge regularly whore their postgraduate programmes out at the highest price.

That's reassuring - the fees I've been quoted are the same as all the polytechnics!

I must be fucking ace!

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Going to uni isn't a bad thing. It's the majority coming out with a 2.1 and getting a job in retail to pay off student debt.

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

It is well documented that Oxbridge regularly whore their postgraduate programmes out at the highest price.

That's reassuring - the fees I've been quoted are the same as all the polytechnics!

I must be fucking ace!"

I do admire your ambition.

Some students, even those at red bricks, would not have the confidence to apply to Oxbridge.

There is noting wrong with being ambitious. I just think people should have the school/college qualifications that used to be associated with those who progressed to University.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I think too many people go to university but the reason I think that's a negative thing is because it's not the best thing for them, not because it affects other people's chances.

It's a little bit like the argument about the number of single men on here. Good graduates can and do make themselves stand out from the rest.

It's the ones who never should have been at university in the first place who've been sold a lie and find they can't.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

It is well documented that Oxbridge regularly whore their postgraduate programmes out at the highest price.

That's reassuring - the fees I've been quoted are the same as all the polytechnics!

I must be fucking ace!

I do admire your ambition.

Some students, even those at red bricks, would not have the confidence to apply to Oxbridge.

There is noting wrong with being ambitious. I just think people should have the school/college qualifications that used to be associated with those who progressed to University."

As I posted above, my school failed me. They told me I was thick. I believed I was thick.

I'm now doing a subject that isn't on offer at most schools (except private schools) at A-Level and doing just fine. What you propose is that I shouldn't have been accepted and therefore I should still be stuck in a lifestyle with minimal career prospects. Instead I'm dragging myself up with more education and getting better clients all the time that pay more - and I expect that to continue after I've finished studying.

Setting such harsh rules - as you suggest - means that those who slip through the net cannot help themselves get a better life. In fact it denies the chance for *anyone* wh isn't in the top X% to try to better themselves.

If the university meet with you, interview and believe that they can teach you - why shouldn't they offer a place?

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By *ee VianteWoman
over a year ago

Somewhere in North Norfolk

Yes, I was so obviously not prepared for university with my D grades and fails, that I'm averaging 75% in my assignments and exams - that's an A+ or a high first.

I presume you got into a bad University that teaches at a bad standard.

I am not impressed that you are performing well at a bad standard. I suspect that employers will be equally as unimpressed.

I am performing well enough that Oxbridge are on the verge of making me postgraduate offers. Thanks.

It is well documented that Oxbridge regularly whore their postgraduate programmes out at the highest price.

I'm not sure what the bag of McCain's best on your shoulder is all about but would you like some salt to go with them? I won't offer vinegar as you seem to be quite acidic enough already.

I'm not impressed that you are doing so well at being rude, ill-informed and generally unpleasant. I'd bet good money I'm not the only one to think so.

I'm not sure why it even matters to you that Wasp Hunter has the opportunity to study for a degree, and is being successful, despite not appearing to be ready to do so when leaving school.

A lot of very bright people don't do well at school because the school system, in general, is not set up to understand, support and assist them.

I got an E for my maths A-level. There were extenuating circumstances and the third placed university in the country for my subject lowered their offer and accepted me anyway on the basis of my interview.

I did very well there and went on to start a PhD.

O-level/GCSE and A-level results do not show a full picture of someone's academic potential and are definitely not the be all and end all.

The university I went to place as much emphasis on the interviews with prospective students as on exam results. They want certain types of thinker rather than people who are really good at remembering stuff but can only apply it exactly as they've been taught. 'My' university prefers people who can learn and understand the underlying principles and work things out from there. Exam results don't show that.

Some of the greatest minds in history didn't do well at school or were thought to be developmentally backward as children.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Went to Manchester University and studied Art History after a family bereavement. Paid for it myself. Best thing I could have done at the time. Lots of the students on the course came from privileged backgrounds and didn't necessarily use the degree directly for employment. I think the fact Manchester is an old red brick university is an advantage. Having a good degree gave me much needed confidence at the time.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I would suggest there's a difference between getting an E at A Level 20, 15 or even 10 years ago and getting one now.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Yeah it's harder now.

Standards at the top are better. They're also lower at the bottom.

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

It is well documented that Oxbridge regularly whore their postgraduate programmes out at the highest price.

That's reassuring - the fees I've been quoted are the same as all the polytechnics!

I must be fucking ace!

I do admire your ambition.

Some students, even those at red bricks, would not have the confidence to apply to Oxbridge.

There is noting wrong with being ambitious. I just think people should have the school/college qualifications that used to be associated with those who progressed to University.

As I posted above, my school failed me. They told me I was thick. I believed I was thick.

If the university meet with you, interview and believe that they can teach you - why shouldn't they offer a place?"

In the old days people did not need to have a University degree in order to have a good job.

If someone had been failed by the schools system they could still improve their condition by studying O and A levels.

Given the volume of people going to University, people today have to possess a degree in order to be socially mobile. The consequence is that people have to have big student debt and forgo 3 years of full time income. This makes people poorer.

I understand you have a passion for History, specifically Art. I am confident that you would have been able to perform at A Level history and maybe other Humanities based subjects if you would have applied yourself at a school that had high expectations of you.

It's admirable that you aspire to go to University. If you would have acquired the necessary qualifications you could very well have gone to a Russell Group University and thus had greater opportunities when you graduate.

I just think there is value in demonstrating that people are able to perform academically before they go to University.

People need to pass a test to demonstrate that they can drive a car before they are allowed to drive unsupervised.