FabSwingers.com forum: What if no-one "wins" tomorrow?

By *oo hot OP Couple
over a year ago

North West

I wonder if the once unthinkable could actually happen and precipitate a huge change in future politics?...

A Conservative/Labour Grand coalition?

The only "red lines" as I see it would be the EU referendum.

They both want to...

Cut the deficit

Keep Trident

Pump money into the NHS

Is it possible?

If it is, I reckon we could see this as the beginning of the end for first past the post.

It really is a joke that the SNP will poll around 4% of the UK vote and get as many as 50 seats in Westminster, whereas the Liberals and UKIP may poll as many as 15% and get just a handful of seats.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Isn't that called a "hung parliament"..?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Or maybe not parliament but a "hung" something. ..

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By *rightonsteveMan
over a year ago

Brighton - even Hove!

"Or maybe not parliament but a "hung" something. .."

I've seen some men describe themselves as 'yung and hung' so I always assume they want to be politicos....

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By *andemanMan
over a year ago

bedforshire

"Or maybe not parliament but a "hung" something. ..

I've seen some men describe themselves as 'yung and hung' so I always assume they want to be politicos...."

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Or maybe not parliament but a "hung" something. ..

I've seen some men describe themselves as 'yung and hung' so I always assume they want to be politicos...."

Very droll Steve .. Can you see me laughing. ..

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By *abioMan
over a year ago

Newcastle and Gateshead

what you could see happening is if tories are biggest party.... they try another coalition with lib dems... queen speech voted down... confidence vote voted down... and election in october.....

or if they just to save us months of grief.... labour/lib dem minority coalition.. and daring the snp to vote against them...

but i think you are right.. i think first past the post is going to come to an end as a part of any deal and it will be some sort of PR/AV system....although whether the snp will want that now they are going to be a big winners in the current system is going to be interesting to see.... and they may well force them to agree to 16 and 17 yr olds voting as part of the deal....

funny enough if the conservatives hand voted against PR/AV when the lib dems made them have a vote as part of the coalition agreement... the irony would have been that the biggest winners now would have the tories...

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By *anchestercubMan
over a year ago

manchester & NI

The yougov poll from this morning shows them both neck and neck at 34%.

But how that translates into seats is still unclear.

Latest polls and prediction have the Tories on a low of 273 to a high of 289.

Labour predictions on polling data range from a low of 257 to 272.

I personally think the Lib Dems will lose more seats than has been predicted so Cameron will be more stuck in trying to find parties to coalition with as many have already ruled out working with the Tories.

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By *lligator3Man
over a year ago

Dundee

As betraying your supporters go (see liberal democrats circa 2010)...your super coalition would have to be the ultimate one.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I wonder if the once unthinkable could actually happen and precipitate a huge change in future politics?...

A Conservative/Labour Grand coalition?

The only "red lines" as I see it would be the EU referendum.

They both want to...

Cut the deficit

Keep Trident

Pump money into the NHS

Is it possible?

If it is, I reckon we could see this as the beginning of the end for first past the post.

It really is a joke that the SNP will poll around 4% of the UK vote and get as many as 50 seats in Westminster, whereas the Liberals and UKIP may poll as many as 15% and get just a handful of seats."

it's a fucked up electoral system.

lt puts loosers in government. Its very interesting to see what sort of a coalition will be governing

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

ermmmm Yup.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

The leaders of the two parties with the biggest majority have to enter the thunderdome.

Two men enter, one man leaves.

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By *ophieslutTV/TS
over a year ago

Central

Better hung, than the ukip candidate who wanted to put a bullet in the head of his Tory opposition.

There won't be an outright winner. Cameron will desperately try to cling on.

Nicola will be true to her word and refuse Tory coalition - otherwise her reputation is in tatters.

Can only really see labour, snp, greens and plaid working together but Cameron will do everything to stop it happening.

Queen invites leader of monster raving loony party to form government. Problem solved.

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By *oo hot OP Couple
over a year ago

North West

"As betraying your supporters go (see liberal democrats circa 2010)...your super coalition would have to be the ultimate one."

It is only a betrayal (strong word) if you end up in power having abandoned the majority of the policies that you campaigned for. The loss of Liberal support because of the u-turn on tuition fees says more about the tiny minds of their supporters than it says about the Liberals themselves. Party politics aside, they have done a good job in difficult circumstances over the last five years.

Aside from the EU referendum, there are only nuances between much of Labour and Conservative policy at this election and maybe we all need to get used governments of the future acting in the reflected interests of everyone as opposed to only their core supporters.

Whichever way you look at it, there is something fundamentally wrong when a party getting 4% of the national vote will end up with 50 or so seats and potentially a controlling influence when a party polling 15% may only get one or two seats. Let alone the prospect of a government being made of a party for whom only a third of the people voted for.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Or maybe not parliament but a "hung" something. ..

I've seen some men describe themselves as 'yung and hung' so I always assume they want to be politicos...."

So these people are claiming to be massive knobs? sounds like they're perfectly qualified...

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By *oo hot OP Couple
over a year ago

North West

"Better hung, than the ukip candidate who wanted to put a bullet in the head of his Tory opposition.

There won't be an outright winner. Cameron will desperately try to cling on.

Nicola will be true to her word and refuse Tory coalition - otherwise her reputation is in tatters.

Can only really see labour, snp, greens and plaid working together but Cameron will do everything to stop it happening.

Queen invites leader of monster raving loony party to form government. Problem solved."

Milliband stood tall at the leaders Election Question Time and said that he would rather not form a government then enter into any sort of coalition or deal with the SNP.

Fundamentally he is right to say this because despite having only 4% of the national votes they will have 50 or so seats and thereby a disproportionate controlling influence relative to their percentage polling.

Farage will have a lot to say about the voting system after this election as the UKIP share of the vote is above the Liberal share by a long shot but they are only looking likely to secure 1 or 2 seats. Their share is reported as being at 15% - 16% - four times that of the SNP and yet only 1 or 2 seats.

I dont agree with much of what UKIP say but this anomaly cant cont continue - I agree with that.

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By *anchestercubMan
over a year ago

manchester & NI

"As betraying your supporters go (see liberal democrats circa 2010)...your super coalition would have to be the ultimate one.

I think the Lib Dems have been judged to a different standard that's unfair.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"As betraying your supporters go (see liberal democrats circa 2010)...your super coalition would have to be the ultimate one.

I've never really been a supporter of PR or AV but the disproportionate influence that could be potentially wielded by, for example, the SNP is enough to convince me that FPTP is dead.

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By *anchestercubMan
over a year ago

manchester & NI

"Better hung, than the ukip candidate who wanted to put a bullet in the head of his Tory opposition.

There won't be an outright winner. Cameron will desperately try to cling on.

Nicola will be true to her word and refuse Tory coalition - otherwise her reputation is in tatters.

Can only really see labour, snp, greens and plaid working together but Cameron will do everything to stop it happening.

Queen invites leader of monster raving loony party to form government. Problem solved.

Milliband stood tall at the leaders Election Question Time and said that he would rather not form a government then enter into any sort of coalition or deal with the SNP.

I dont agree with much of what UKIP say but this anomaly cant cont continue - I agree with that."

Electoral reform should be top of the agenda I think, and will blow up after the election when certain groups of people feel cheated.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

We've had that referendum, it was turned down.

The very same people that moan about the snp keeping going for independence despite losing the referendum are now moaning about voting reform despite it being turned down by the public!

That's democracy for you, something you like something's you don't

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By *layfull pairingCouple
over a year ago

Bristol

Just let cameron and milliband arm wrestle for it.....

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Better hung, than the ukip candidate who wanted to put a bullet in the head of his Tory opposition.

Despicable, obnoxious and quite probably criminal.

However, the sting in the tale of that story is that the BBC are reporting the prospective Tory candidate ( Tory win with a 18,500 majority last time around) an Asian candidate as quite clearly stating :

"I hope to contribute positively to our country by representing my community - the community in which I grew up - in parliament."

Silly me, i though an MP represented all of his/her constituents not just his "community.

We're all losers.

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By *abioMan
over a year ago

Newcastle and Gateshead

"We've had that referendum, it was turned down.

next time round i don't it will be put to a referendum... it will be part of a coalition deal... and i think 16/17 year olds voting is coming as well as part of the same parliament act....

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By *erbyDalesCplCouple
over a year ago

Derbyshire

Tories largest party, but unable to win Queen's speech, even with Lib Dems.

Snp will back Lab minority government, as their only way to have any influence.

Labour minority on English matters, so rather than risk deals with Snp, they will convince the Libs to join them in order to 'save the union'. Libs will ditch Clegg and take the only pragmatic solution to stay in power themselves.

Milliband will point out that the country voted overwhelmingly against political reform, so we will keep the same system at the next election (since it favours Labour/Snp). Cameron whinging 'not fair' and storming off in a huff.

But regardless, taxes will rise, it will be sunny (except when it rains), we will go to work (except when we're on holiday), we will swing (or moan about not swinging), and we will all get older, fatter and more nostalgic for the 'good old days'.

Meanwhile our MPs will philander, misclaim expenses, lie and go back on their promises. But we won't mind too much so long as they don't ask us to go through this again for another five years!

Anyone care to give me odds?

Mr ddc

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By *ophieslutTV/TS
over a year ago

Central

I think the former LibDem supporters who won't continue in that fashion have been largely let down by some in its leadership posts, including Clegg. They propped up a Tory government that inflicted some of the harshest penalties, on the disabled, unemployed and others. There were students who may or may not vote against them - the ones I know won't support LibDems.

The differences amongst parties are somewhat narrower than before but the Conservatives are likely to be the party driven by the ideology of shrinking the state and also some controls on business operations. Eg, Labour looking for private tenant protections.

The Conservatives could also help continue the give-away of public assets, such as local authority ownership of schools, buildings and land to free schools. That must be worth £millions - and we've all paid for that, and our local authorities have owned that, on our behalf. When free schools are formed, the deeds are given away for nothing. I'm not particularly comfortable with that.

I also think that the food crises, such as horse meat, need sufficient strength at state level, to ensure adequate protection of the people. A right wing ideology that wishes to shrink the state, is likely to be wanting their mates to benefit financially, even if they don't themselves, somehow.

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By *anchestercubMan
over a year ago

manchester & NI

"Better hung, than the ukip candidate who wanted to put a bullet in the head of his Tory opposition.

Despicable, obnoxious and quite probably criminal.

"I hope to contribute positively to our country by representing my community - the community in which I grew up - in parliament."

Silly me, i though an MP represented all of his/her constituents not just his "community.

We're all losers. "

By community I read constituency. Calling it the former is meant to show it has meaning to you beyond political appointment. That's my take on it anyway.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

The last government waa supposed to be two parties. It wasn't. It was Tory.

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By *heOwlMan
over a year ago

Altrincham

[Removed by poster at 06/05/15 14:50:11]

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By *heOwlMan
over a year ago

Altrincham

Hmm, if no-one wins tomorrow then democracy looses, because we will end up with a government based on the deals made by a bunch of career poloticians, not based on what the people actually voted for.

Would it be the start of the demise of the first past the post system? Probably not. What difference would no-one winning make to those career politicans - after all they still have a job.

At the end of the day we need the political creatures to change the system, and for those seaking a career the current system works only too well, so why would they even think of changing it?

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By *abioMan
over a year ago

Newcastle and Gateshead

"The last government waa supposed to be two parties. It wasn't. It was Tory."

actually a lot more in it that you probably realise is actually lib dem via the coalition agreement.... problem is they don't as in this post get any credit for it....

for example.... the rise in the single persons tax allowance up to 10,500.... thats lib dem...

reform of the banking system and the bankers levy.... lib dem

education and the extra meals for 4 and 5 year olds in schools.... lib dem

the tories take a lot of the credit....

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"The last government waa supposed to be two parties. It wasn't. It was Tory."

Thankfully

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By *anchestercubMan
over a year ago

manchester & NI

"The last government waa supposed to be two parties. It wasn't. It was Tory."

Well the tax threshold was all Lib Dem - but the Tories are more than happy to take the credit.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"We've had that referendum, it was turned down.

next time round i don't it will be put to a referendum... it will be part of a coalition deal... and i think 16/17 year olds voting is coming as well as part of the same parliament act...."
.

Mmmm is that just political reform or the independence for Scotland as well

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By *oo hot OP Couple
over a year ago

North West

"The last government waa supposed to be two parties. It wasn't. It was Tory.

actually a lot more in it that you probably realise is actually lib dem via the coalition agreement.... problem is they don't as in this post get any credit for it....

for example.... the rise in the single persons tax allowance up to 10,500.... thats lib dem...

reform of the banking system and the bankers levy.... lib dem

education and the extra meals for 4 and 5 year olds in schools.... lib dem

the tories take a lot of the credit....

I actually think that the coalition worked out well and that maybe as a result the country could operate on something other than first past the post.

It seems a bit of a nonsense that party politics is about a defined group of people. The country is diverse do politics should be as well.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Its a good election to lose...

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By *anchestercubMan
over a year ago

manchester & NI

"Its a good election to lose..."

Whoever wins will have to make unpopular decisions - it makes you wonder why they want to win so much.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

In my honest opinion, I'd urge everyone to vote independent as the best option for the country.... Can you imagine a house with 600 and odd independent mps, that's my type of democracy.....

Of course that's only if your not voting green

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By *abioMan
over a year ago

Newcastle and Gateshead

"Its a good election to lose..."

thats what they said about the last one.....

and look where we are now.. and the incumbant may still win!!

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Its a good election to lose...

thats what they said about the last one.....

and look where we are now.. and the incumbant may still win!!"

The 'easy' cuts have been made though. For budget reductions in the public services there is so much worse pain yet to come.

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By *oe bloggs69Man
over a year ago

fife

Penalty kicks???

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I'm voting for a Sex Party...

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Labour Tories lib dems all waste of a vote

Vote UKIP

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By *heOwlMan
over a year ago

Altrincham

"Labour Tories lib dems all waste of a vote

Vote UKIP"

Why they are just tories who are too extreme even for the conservative party and therefore are also a waste of a vote :P

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By *eMontresMan
over a year ago

Halesowen

I've always thought that FPTP was fundamentally undemocratic and in the past campaigned and supported those who included PR in their policies.

We are faced with the very real prospect that 4% of the electorate (pro SNP) will have 50 seats in the house, dictating policy on English issues.

I know there are challenges with PR/AV, but many other countries manage to deal with them.

Under PR/AV, at least every vote counts, and I think we are more likely to have higher voter turnouts and more engagement with disaffected non voters.

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By *rightonsteveMan
over a year ago

Brighton - even Hove!

"Or maybe not parliament but a "hung" something. ..

I've seen some men describe themselves as 'yung and hung' so I always assume they want to be politicos....

Very droll Steve .. Can you see me laughing. ..

Nary fear my crap sense of humour. I'm aware I don't take things seriously and find things quite funny even when they aren't.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I wonder if the once unthinkable could actually happen and precipitate a huge change in future politics?...

A Conservative/Labour Grand coalition?

The only "red lines" as I see it would be the EU referendum.

They both want to...

Cut the deficit

Keep Trident

Pump money into the NHS

Is it possible?

If it is, I reckon we could see this as the beginning of the end for first past the post.

It really is a joke that the SNP will poll around 4% of the UK vote and get as many as 50 seats in Westminster, whereas the Liberals and UKIP may poll as many as 15% and get just a handful of seats."

Have you booked your taxi to Heathrow yet?

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By *abrina59TV/TS
over a year ago

moved to cuckold land

Well if we looking at fairness and the UK is truely a partnership of the unions of England Scotland NI & Wales should then all not have an equal share (25%) in how the UK Partnership is run

That would then really make it a United Kingdom dont you agree

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By *lligator3Man
over a year ago

Dundee

"As betraying your supporters go (see liberal democrats circa 2010)...your super coalition would have to be the ultimate one.

May first glance your stats do sound unfair assuming SNP win every seat in Scotland (which they won't) Scotland by population are just under 10% of UK....but the 59 seats available in Scotland is under 10% seat available UK-wide....those stats seem perfectly fair don't they?

Under 10% both times = proportional representation I thought.

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By *lligator3Man
over a year ago

Dundee

Oh and if your still hung up on the number of voters per seats argument look no further than 2010:

Labour: 8.6m votes = 258seats

Liberals: 6.8m votes = 57seats

It's always be 'unfair' by your reasoning, you may just like it less cause the result may not be in your interest.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Better no one that Cameron and his cronies!

Proportional representation doesnt work in the long term!

Given that we now have the meaningless leader debates why not go the full united states of america route and elect a president that every can vote for!

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By *anchestercubMan
over a year ago

manchester & NI

I think it's the time to seriously consider going federal.

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By *oo hot OP Couple
over a year ago

North West

"Oh and if your still hung up on the number of voters per seats argument look no further than 2010:

Labour: 8.6m votes = 258seats

Liberals: 6.8m votes = 57seats

It's always be 'unfair' by your reasoning, you may just like it less cause the result may not be in your interest."

As a natural conservative voter, proportional representation may not be in the best interest of the Conservative party.

That is not the point in the greater scheme of things. From a position of fairness I think that a diverse country should be more diversely represented.

Just how Parliament would ever get anything planned let alone executed by diverse conglomerate is another question altogether.

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By *abioMan
over a year ago

Newcastle and Gateshead

"Well if we looking at fairness and the UK is truely a partnership of the unions of England Scotland NI & Wales should then all not have an equal share (25%) in how the UK Partnership is run

That would then really make it a United Kingdom dont you agree"

erm.... no!!!!

6 million people in scotland.... 60 million in england... and you think they have the same share.... nah...

so in your example... 1 scotish vote would be worth 10 english ones...

they dont even do that in the US... they still do it on the population of a state and weight the results...

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By *lligator3Man
over a year ago

Dundee

"Well if we looking at fairness and the UK is truely a partnership of the unions of England Scotland NI & Wales should then all not have an equal share (25%) in how the UK Partnership is run

That would then really make it a United Kingdom dont you agree

erm.... no!!!!

6 million people in scotland.... 60 million in england... and you think they have the same share.... nah...

so in your example... 1 scotish vote would be worth 10 english ones...

they dont even do that in the US... they still do it on the population of a state and weight the results...

I'm Scottish an I'm with you mate...25% is clearly unfair, nobody serious about politics would think this.

One last point to the people who fear SNP getting seats...55% of the voting population of Scotland were determined to stay in the UK last year.

Majority want to be British yet it's predicted to be a landslide SNP win tomorrow.

If nothing else just consider that 55% who fought to stay in our union but feel they can't trust labour, libs n Tories....work asking why?

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By *opinovMan
over a year ago

Point Nemo, Cumbria

It's a roll-over ... and a well hung one at that.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

regarding the fairness debate - i dont know the numbers BUT all three of major parties base their policies on London and forgot that there is a lot of the country is different - housing costs being a prime example

so lets go federal - independance for Yorkshire!!!

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By *bi HaiveMan
Forum Mod
over a year ago

Cheeseville, Somerset

If nobody wins tomorrow?

Oh go on then.

I'll do it. I'll run the country.

It'll save me job hunting!

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By *eMontresMan
over a year ago

Halesowen

Under 10% both times = proportional representation I thought."

Err no. 20% of the population is under 18, so we're down to 4.8M.

Latest polls suggest about 50% of Scots will vote SNP, so we're down to 2.4M.

Now work out the relative percentage of SNP voters of the UK voting population as a whole, and the number of seats they will get (likely to be at least 50), and you'll see how disproportionate it will be.

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By *lligator3Man
over a year ago

Dundee

Under 10% both times = proportional representation I thought.

Err no. 20% of the population is under 18, so we're down to 4.8M.

Latest polls suggest about 50% of Scots will vote SNP, so we're down to 2.4M.

Is roughly 20% of the rest if UK not under 18...if so then wipe off 12m from 60m to 48m!

4.8m voters v 48m voters still 10%.

You can take total votes to = seats if you re-read above my message showing liberal n labour votes to seats ratio.

Your creating a false reality with your stats...in any marjonal constituency in England you might see a 3way split of votes 34% Tory, 33% labour 33libs....Tory wins seat an represents that constituency....despite 66% of them not wanting them there.

That's just the way it is.

Oh and if you talk about unfairly represented Scotland had 1 Tory seat in 2010....yet we got Cameron - you didn't seem upset as much about that.

Check how many Tory seats in Scotland when we had john major, maggy thatcher.....maybe it's about time Westminster didn't hold all the cards and actually show they care about the union

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By *eMontresMan
over a year ago

Halesowen

Nope, it's you who's being disingenuous with the stats.

OK, let's say 10% of the UK electorate is Scots.

With 650 seats available, Scotland should only have 6.5, let's round it to 7, seats.

Not 59 ffs!

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Nope, it's you who's being disingenuous with the stats.

OK, let's say 10% of the UK electorate is Scots.

With 650 seats available, Scotland should only have 6.5, let's round it to 7, seats.

Not 59 ffs!"

Sorry, but your maths is a little out there.

10% of 650 is 65, not 6.5 - that's 1%

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By *eMontresMan
over a year ago

Halesowen

"Nope, it's you who's being disingenuous with the stats.

OK, let's say 10% of the UK electorate is Scots.

With 650 seats available, Scotland should only have 6.5, let's round it to 7, seats.

Not 59 ffs!

Sorry, but your maths is a little out there.

10% of 650 is 65, not 6.5 - that's 1%"

oops my bad - I'll go away and shut up now

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By *abrina59TV/TS
over a year ago

moved to cuckold land

"Well if we looking at fairness and the UK is truely a partnership of the unions of England Scotland NI & Wales should then all not have an equal share (25%) in how the UK Partnership is run

That would then really make it a United Kingdom dont you agree

erm.... no!!!!

6 million people in scotland.... 60 million in england... and you think they have the same share.... nah...

so in your example... 1 scotish vote would be worth 10 english ones...

they dont even do that in the US... they still do it on the population of a state and weight the results...

So you want to control all uk decisions sffecting Scotland Wales & NI hows thst fair

Scotland, England, Wales & NI should have full contfol over there own Decisions however decisions thst are UK wide should be shared equally

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By *erbyDalesCplCouple
over a year ago

Derbyshire

Scotland, England, Wales & NI should have full control over there own Decisions however decisions that are UK wide should be shared equally"

Can't say fairer than that.

Unfortunately we are currently looking at Scottish MPs voting on English-only issues

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By *anchestercubMan
over a year ago

manchester & NI

Scotland, England, Wales & NI should have full control over there own Decisions however decisions that are UK wide should be shared equally

Can't say fairer than that.

Unfortunately we are currently looking at Scottish MPs voting on English-only issues"

How dare the union not work for England.

For over 300 years the union has worked for England by England.

We have had many cases of Northern Ireland, Scotland and Wales being governed by political parties they didn't elect - where was all the outrage then? Where were all the doomsday newspapers covers then?

If in over 300 years the union suddenly isn't being dictated by England - then by all means plan a referndum and vote to leave it.

Can't work with the Union, can't work with the EU... I see a pattern forming.

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By *erbyDalesCplCouple
over a year ago

Derbyshire

Not me.

I'd be happy with a federal system for uk decisions.

I don't agree with English MPs imposing the Poll Tax on Scotland, nor Scottish MPs imposing university fees on my kids.

I've always been consistent

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