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Why I think the tories are wrong

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By (user no longer on site) OP   
over a year ago

The problem with the world economy is that money has no fixed value any more. Instead it only has relative value. During the last government those countries who managed to convince their citizens to pay off their debts have rebounded back far better than those who haven't. This is not because they are repaying their debts, but because they have shown the markets that their citizens are gullible enough to pay off bankers debts... and this makes them favourable countries to do business in.

Cameron's philosophical goal is to make Britain the most gullible country in the world, the one who will chop off its own arm to pay bankers bonuses. The result of this will be that Britain becomes the best place in the world to do big business. I believe this is mistaken.

Instead, it occurs to me that the only way out of this financial crisis (without returning to the gold standard) is when most countries return to the relative standing they had in the world before it. Until that happens those who are under will trouble those who are ontop (think Greece vs. Germany). Thus, Cameron's goal is a pipedream. Instead, economic stability will come through a return to how things were. This means that no one country can come out of this more favourably than it went into it, apart from perhaps China.

I predict that this next 5 years will see a change in most countries away from debt repayment and towards funding their growth via inreased debts. Why? Because debt = good. Debt = good in society i.e. people using their credit cards again... and debt = good in government. Think of it this way... few businesses get started without investment i.e. without debt. Debt makes things happen... and debt is what gives money value. Banks need to invest in small businesses.. and that means returning to debt again. The tories would be exactly the wrong party to have in power during this transition... though who else should be in power instead of them is beyond me.

We already know that other countries have far worse debt than ours so it is pointless wiping out our debt when we can build up our society, get the middle classes spending again, and invest in things that promote growth such as infrastructure and still come out top of the pile.

Not all of what I have written here is my own opinion... it just strikes me to be the state of capitalism as it curently stands. Thought it would provoke some debate though.. have fun

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"The problem with the world economy is that money has no fixed value any more. Instead it only has relative value. During the last government those countries who managed to convince their citizens to pay off their debts have rebounded back far better than those who haven't. This is not because they are repaying their debts, but because they have shown the markets that their citizens are gullible enough to pay off bankers debts... and this makes them favourable countries to do business in.

Cameron's philosophical goal is to make Britain the most gullible country in the world, the one who will chop off its own arm to pay bankers bonuses. The result of this will be that Britain becomes the best place in the world to do big business. I believe this is mistaken.

Instead, it occurs to me that the only way out of this financial crisis (without returning to the gold standard) is when most countries return to the relative standing they had in the world before it. Until that happens those who are under will trouble those who are ontop (think Greece vs. Germany). Thus, Cameron's goal is a pipedream. Instead, economic stability will come through a return to how things were. This means that no one country can come out of this more favourably than it went into it, apart from perhaps China.

I predict that this next 5 years will see a change in most countries away from debt repayment and towards funding their growth via inreased debts. Why? Because debt = good. Debt = good in society i.e. people using their credit cards again... and debt = good in government. Think of it this way... few businesses get started without investment i.e. without debt. Debt makes things happen... and debt is what gives money value. Banks need to invest in small businesses.. and that means returning to debt again. The tories would be exactly the wrong party to have in power during this transition... though who else should be in power instead of them is beyond me.

We already know that other countries have far worse debt than ours so it is pointless wiping out our debt when we can build up our society, get the middle classes spending again, and invest in things that promote growth such as infrastructure and still come out top of the pile.

Not all of what I have written here is my own opinion... it just strikes me to be the state of capitalism as it curently stands. Thought it would provoke some debate though.. have fun "

Right.... Lets start by......................Ahh fuck it. I'm going back to the Lounge

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"The problem with the world economy is that money has no fixed value any more. "

It's NEVER had any fixed value.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

So, by making myself debt free I am gullible? What a load of tosh.

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By (user no longer on site) OP   
over a year ago


"So, by making myself debt free I am gullible? What a load of tosh."

Only if you decide not to feed your family to do that

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

This may be contentious to some, to most even, but the real problem is that the COST of money is far too low.

Low interest rates do not work.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Chuckles so China is better off...hmmm we shall speak about that in 5 years when China goes "Bang" with loads of smoke...

Love it when people wade in to such discussions about finance and debt... China has the worst debt to credit ratio anywhere in the world and only reason why there has been no Big Bang (sorry the pun to the series) is that they were able to export cheap... But their markets have gone flat line so no growth no income so nothing for their bills... Ask Russia how much China owes to them for gas and oil - BP, Shell Exxon are green with envy

And for Cameron being wrong great...so your idea is to load up debt and more debt and more... and leave the whole f** mess for your kids and grand kids to sort out... Brilliant idea ... go for it but when interest rates hit 17 % and jobless rates 40% wonder who you will blame then ? Tories Labour SNP Liberal Greens ... the raving loon Monster Party ?

If people would read 1" of history the ballooning of debt was used once before in the UK ask Harold Wilson and look what happened... and it wasn't Thatcher who closed the ship yards and the coal mines ... yes it was Wilson, the friendly next door guy with the pipe in his face..

His government and party drew up the list of 200 coal mines to be closed, that the ship yards got their legs cut off and that the wool industry was sent "South"...

So pick up a History book and read before sending out "great" ideas thanks

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By *rightonsteveMan
over a year ago

Brighton - even Hove!


"The problem with the world economy is that money has no fixed value any more.

It's NEVER had any fixed value."

Money never had fixed value as such but it did have intrinsic value and it doesn't any more. Not since about 50AD

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By *imiUKMan
over a year ago

Hereford


"Chuckles so China is better off...hmmm we shall speak about that in 5 years when China goes "Bang" with loads of smoke...

Love it when people wade in to such discussions about finance and debt... China has the worst debt to credit ratio anywhere in the world and only reason why there has been no Big Bang (sorry the pun to the series) is that they were able to export cheap... But their markets have gone flat line so no growth no income so nothing for their bills... Ask Russia how much China owes to them for gas and oil - BP, Shell Exxon are green with envy

And for Cameron being wrong great...so your idea is to load up debt and more debt and more... and leave the whole f** mess for your kids and grand kids to sort out... Brilliant idea ... go for it but when interest rates hit 17 % and jobless rates 40% wonder who you will blame then ? Tories Labour SNP Liberal Greens ... the raving loon Monster Party ?

If people would read 1" of history the ballooning of debt was used once before in the UK ask Harold Wilson and look what happened... and it wasn't Thatcher who closed the ship yards and the coal mines ... yes it was Wilson, the friendly next door guy with the pipe in his face..

His government and party drew up the list of 200 coal mines to be closed, that the ship yards got their legs cut off and that the wool industry was sent "South"...

So pick up a History book and read before sending out "great" ideas thanks"

Just a slight point - the writing has been on the wall for the wool industry for decades.

Even with these 'Two wool crops a year' Romneys.....

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By (user no longer on site) OP   
over a year ago


"so your idea is to load up debt and more debt and more... and leave the whole f** mess for your kids and grand kids to sort out... Brilliant idea"

This is exactly the fallacy which the Tories are playing upon. All countries are in debt. We don't get any prizes for killing off half our population in order to pay ours off. Instead, as your point highlights, all were looking to be is the best at paying them off... that's all we need to show in order to be the top of the pile... in order to evade all those horrible things you talk about. We don't have to pay it off... that's a mug's game. Instead, we need to change gears, moving from debt repayment into reinvestment at just the same time as all the other countries do... or else we'll be left behind with nicely balanced books but no growth.

Just to clarify... we are already paying debts from WWI etc... and, to my knowledge, all countries are the same. Thus, the kids or grand kids won't need to sort it out any more than we've been called upon to sort it out... its just an unfortunate fact of life. You want to start a business? You need investment. You want growth? You need investment. That's the missing ingredient which is stalling the small business economy at the mo imo

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

mpassion you make no sense to me.

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By (user no longer on site) OP   
over a year ago


"The problem with the world economy is that money has no fixed value any more.

It's NEVER had any fixed value.

Money never had fixed value as such but it did have intrinsic value and it doesn't any more. Not since about 50AD "

I was refering to the gold standard, against which money's value was previously measured up until the 1970's.

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By *rightonsteveMan
over a year ago

Brighton - even Hove!


"mpassion you make no sense to me."

Ah! The very person....that weird type of relationship? Just my slightly skewed sense of humour. I invented it at lunch today.

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By (user no longer on site) OP   
over a year ago


"mpassion you make no sense to me."

lol me tinks you're not the only one.

However it's simple... debt repayment is stage one... we debt repay just as long as all other countries are also repaying their debts... this is first gear.

However...the minute other countries start reinvesting in their growth again i.e. USA and start happily letting their debt belts out a bit more then we need to follow suit otherwise they'll all be in second gear whilst we're chugging along in first gear.

A vote for the tories is a vote for a 5 year commitment to debt repayment. I think this is almost certain to end in disaster economically, as other countries move into second gear and overtake us...

make any more sense? lol

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"mpassion you make no sense to me.

Ah! The very person....that weird type of relationship? Just my slightly skewed sense of humour. I invented it at lunch today. "

I thought so.

That sounded utter bollocks.

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By *rightonsteveMan
over a year ago

Brighton - even Hove!


"mpassion you make no sense to me.

Ah! The very person....that weird type of relationship? Just my slightly skewed sense of humour. I invented it at lunch today.

I thought so.

That sounded utter bollocks. :-

D"

So I thought.....so thought I

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

This year is the 200th anniversary of govt debt.

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By (user no longer on site) OP   
over a year ago


"This year is the 200th anniversary of govt debt."

And clearly it has crippled our development over that period of time lol thx for the stat. People who want to get rid of all our debts are like UKIP supporters who want to get rid of all our immigrants, including the saxons, normans, right back to when fish first flapped up onto our beaches and dared to grow their legs on our soil

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By *at69driveMan
over a year ago

Hertford


"This year is the 200th anniversary of govt debt.

And clearly it has crippled our development over that period of time lol thx for the stat. People who want to get rid of all our debts are like UKIP supporters who want to get rid of all our immigrants, including the saxons, normans, right back to when fish first flapped up onto our beaches and dared to grow their legs on our soil "
. How can debt be the answer to economic problems ?. Without debt we have control over our lives . There are lots of ways of raising funds without borrowing . Large PLCs can raise funds via rights issues.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"This year is the 200th anniversary of govt debt.

And clearly it has crippled our development over that period of time lol thx for the stat. People who want to get rid of all our debts are like UKIP supporters who want to get rid of all our immigrants, including the saxons, normans, right back to when fish first flapped up onto our beaches and dared to grow their legs on our soil . How can debt be the answer to economic problems ?. Without debt we have control over our lives . There are lots of ways of raising funds without borrowing . Large PLCs can raise funds via rights issues. "

What rubbish. There will always be debt. Always. Mortgage, rent, gas bills, electricity bills, mobile phones, water rates, tax, someone has to pay you, someone has to pay pensions.. There will ALWAYS be debt. A mortgage is just a massive loan after all...

And list is just "simple" debts.! Bottom line is don't borrow what you can't afford to pay back. Then debt wouldn't have to be written off. People wouldn't have to be made bankrupt etc because they have borrowed too much that they cannot afford to pay back. It's about time the general public took a good look at themselves and their situation and if they cannot afford it, don't have it!! People piss me off in this blame culture we are in! Greed breeds greed. Some people are incapable of looking after themselves!

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By *nnyMan
over a year ago

Glasgow


"The problem with the world economy is that money has no fixed value any more.

It's NEVER had any fixed value.

Money never had fixed value as such but it did have intrinsic value and it doesn't any more. Not since about 50AD

I was refering to the gold standard, against which money's value was previously measured up until the 1970's."

UK abandoned the gold standard in 1931.

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By (user no longer on site) OP   
over a year ago


"This year is the 200th anniversary of govt debt.

And clearly it has crippled our development over that period of time lol thx for the stat. People who want to get rid of all our debts are like UKIP supporters who want to get rid of all our immigrants, including the saxons, normans, right back to when fish first flapped up onto our beaches and dared to grow their legs on our soil . How can debt be the answer to economic problems ?. Without debt we have control over our lives . There are lots of ways of raising funds without borrowing . Large PLCs can raise funds via rights issues. "

Simple... if you were in a sample group with 9 other men and 5 of them were given loans of £100,000, whilst the other 5, including you, were allowed to live debt free but on a low income, the chances are the other 5 would be better off than your 5 after a couple of years, even though they would be needing to repay their debts.

It's one of the things I hate about capitalism... but it is true that money makes money, whether you like it or not. We would be fools to be fixated solely upon debt repayment if the other developing countries started to reinvest in their growth again. This doesn't mean we need to plough back into record spending. But I strongly believe that record cutting is equally as bad... and that's what the tories are advocating. Just my 2p

btw in answer to your question. if a small town has a big road which passes near it with lots of traffic on it, it would benefit that town to get into debt in order to invest in rerouting that road so that it comes through the centre of the town in such a way as that towns become more accessible to the passers by. This then boosts the local economy, paying off the debt and leading to long term prosperity. This is how investing in infrastructure and getting into debt can make long term sense.

There's no point having no debts if you've got no income.... and that's probably the most succinct way of voicing my entire argument

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By (user no longer on site) OP   
over a year ago


"The problem with the world economy is that money has no fixed value any more.

It's NEVER had any fixed value.

Money never had fixed value as such but it did have intrinsic value and it doesn't any more. Not since about 50AD

I was refering to the gold standard, against which money's value was previously measured up until the 1970's.

UK abandoned the gold standard in 1931."

Ah but the dollar didn't until the 1970's, and the dollar was, and possibly still is, THE currency against which all others were measured

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By *ophieslutTV/TS
over a year ago

Central

The economy was in growth when labour didn't win the election. The conservatives with their mantra of austerity for the masses, but bonuses for the bankers, then shafted the growth. They changed tack part way mid term, which allowed miniscule growth.

They failed their debt promises and some nuts think that's a reliable party.

So this time round, after global economists say that British obsession with austerity is stupid and does not create or stimulate growth, you'd think the last people you'd trust would be the ones who just shafted you. You would, wouldn't you? Once bitten, twice shy and all that.

The conservatives are content to dismantle our state, providing lucrative contracts to their mates. It won't make economic growth, just their friends richer. Fuck you, they don't give a damn about you. Judge them by their actions, not words.

Last time it was also a promise, on billboards and in their manifestos for no top down NHS reorganization. They took power and our taxes paid for an immediate top down reorganization. Their actions show them for what they are.

Incompetent and deceitful.

I don't rule out voting Tory bur I absolutely could not live with myself if I did so this election.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Why the Tories are wrong...

They are Tories.

The end.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

(From the BBC) in the calendar year 2007, the Labour government borrowed £37.7bn, of which £28.3bn was invested in big projects (the balance of £9.4bn represents the current budget deficit). Conversely, in 2013, the Conservative-led coalition borrowed £91.5bn, with just £23.7bn invested.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

So this govt has borrowed more but invested less. In business terms that would indicate being utterly fucked

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By (user no longer on site) OP   
over a year ago

I seem to remember a prominent business investor (perhaps Warren Buffett) arguing that, instead of gold, the value of money was fixed in the value of human energy. When people get into debt they commit to pay it off and this involves human activity and energy. As long as humans show they are willing to partially pay off their debts, and commit to long term payment plans, then the money is worth the energy which is being caused by it.

If no debts are made and no human energy is exerted in order to repay them, and there is no gold standard, then money has literally no value whatsoever.. and everything collapses again. Just a thought

I just think its time to call out the fallacy that the Tories are the party of good economics... they're not

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By *at69driveMan
over a year ago

Hertford


"This year is the 200th anniversary of govt debt.

And clearly it has crippled our development over that period of time lol thx for the stat. People who want to get rid of all our debts are like UKIP supporters who want to get rid of all our immigrants, including the saxons, normans, right back to when fish first flapped up onto our beaches and dared to grow their legs on our soil . How can debt be the answer to economic problems ?. Without debt we have control over our lives . There are lots of ways of raising funds without borrowing . Large PLCs can raise funds via rights issues.

Simple... if you were in a sample group with 9 other men and 5 of them were given loans of £100,000, whilst the other 5, including you, were allowed to live debt free but on a low income, the chances are the other 5 would be better off than your 5 after a couple of years, even though they would be needing to repay their debts.

It's one of the things I hate about capitalism... but it is true that money makes money, whether you like it or not. We would be fools to be fixated solely upon debt repayment if the other developing countries started to reinvest in their growth again. This doesn't mean we need to plough back into record spending. But I strongly believe that record cutting is equally as bad... and that's what the tories are advocating. Just my 2p

btw in answer to your question. if a small town has a big road which passes near it with lots of traffic on it, it would benefit that town to get into debt in order to invest in rerouting that road so that it comes through the centre of the town in such a way as that towns become more accessible to the passers by. This then boosts the local economy, paying off the debt and leading to long term prosperity. This is how investing in infrastructure and getting into debt can make long term sense.

There's no point having no debts if you've got no income.... and that's probably the most succinct way of voicing my entire argument "
. After five years and no debt I might also be better off than those in debt who will also have to service both interest and capital repayments . High levels of debt do not necessarily equate to investment or earning more .

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"(From the BBC) in the calendar year 2007, the Labour government borrowed £37.7bn, of which £28.3bn was invested in big projects (the balance of £9.4bn represents the current budget deficit). Conversely, in 2013, the Conservative-led coalition borrowed £91.5bn, with just £23.7bn invested.

"

Why doesn't Labour challenge the lib/con coalition on this...?

It's all strange

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"(From the BBC) in the calendar year 2007, the Labour government borrowed £37.7bn, of which £28.3bn was invested in big projects (the balance of £9.4bn represents the current budget deficit). Conversely, in 2013, the Conservative-led coalition borrowed £91.5bn, with just £23.7bn invested.

Why doesn't Labour challenge the lib/con coalition on this...?

It's all strange"

Just been having that very discussion. Bizarre innit.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

To be fair they probably do, but we all switch off when they argue over debt/deficit/borrowing blah blah blah

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By *at69driveMan
over a year ago

Hertford


"I seem to remember a prominent business investor (perhaps Warren Buffett) arguing that, instead of gold, the value of money was fixed in the value of human energy. When people get into debt they commit to pay it off and this involves human activity and energy. As long as humans show they are willing to partially pay off their debts, and commit to long term payment plans, then the money is worth the energy which is being caused by it.

If no debts are made and no human energy is exerted in order to repay them, and there is no gold standard, then money has literally no value whatsoever.. and everything collapses again. Just a thought . The FTSE is close to an all time high and lots of new jobs are being created . The Conservatives have done a great job of managing the economy in difficult times. Do we really want to end up like France or Greece . ?

I just think its time to call out the fallacy that the Tories are the party of good economics... they're not"

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"(From the BBC) in the calendar year 2007, the Labour government borrowed £37.7bn, of which £28.3bn was invested in big projects (the balance of £9.4bn represents the current budget deficit). Conversely, in 2013, the Conservative-led coalition borrowed £91.5bn, with just £23.7bn invested.

Why doesn't Labour challenge the lib/con coalition on this...?

It's all strange

Just been having that very discussion. Bizarre innit.

"

Nobody challenges anyone with substance... The Tories are still on about that note that labour left them...

The subprime crash is never properly discussed by politicians...

I'm no ukipper, but i find it frustrating that none of the major parties adequately challenge them on their carefully worded facts...

Is party politics real or theatre?

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By *at69driveMan
over a year ago

Hertford


"I seem to remember a prominent business investor (perhaps Warren Buffett) arguing that, instead of gold, the value of money was fixed in the value of human energy. When people get into debt they commit to pay it off and this involves human activity and energy. As long as humans show they are willing to partially pay off their debts, and commit to long term payment plans, then the money is worth the energy which is being caused by it.

If no debts are made and no human energy is exerted in order to repay them, and there is no gold standard, then money has literally no value whatsoever.. and everything collapses again. Just a thought

I just think its time to call out the fallacy that the Tories are the party of good economics... they're not"
The Conservatives have done a great job of managing the economy in difficult times. Lots of new jobs have been created , car sales are at an all time high , and the FTSE is close to an all time high .

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"To be fair they probably do, but we all switch off when they argue over debt/deficit/borrowing blah blah blah"

I don't feel they do...it's the reason I rarely watch question time

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Politics is politics - the art of talking bollocks to get what you want. You can do a degree in it to talk educated eloquent bollocks and then have a nice career pretending you're doing it for the riff raff.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"I seem to remember a prominent business investor (perhaps Warren Buffett) arguing that, instead of gold, the value of money was fixed in the value of human energy. When people get into debt they commit to pay it off and this involves human activity and energy. As long as humans show they are willing to partially pay off their debts, and commit to long term payment plans, then the money is worth the energy which is being caused by it.

If no debts are made and no human energy is exerted in order to repay them, and there is no gold standard, then money has literally no value whatsoever.. and everything collapses again. Just a thought

I just think its time to call out the fallacy that the Tories are the party of good economics... they're not The Conservatives have done a great job of managing the economy in difficult times. Lots of new jobs have been created , car sales are at an all time high , and the FTSE is close to an all time high . "

By using 'socialist' policies of borrowing excessively ... I'm confused.

If I borrow a lot of money...my bank account may look healthy, but it's not.

How's that different to what the Tories have done?

If we're in greater debt, how are the public finances better off?

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By (user no longer on site) OP   
over a year ago


"Conservatives have done a great job of managing the economy in difficult times. Lots of new jobs have been created , car sales are at an all time high , and the FTSE is close to an all time high . "

I would put some big question marks against some of that...lots of new jobs... but all badly paid. As for managing the economy... I'd say Osbourne has dropped the ball several times over this government... and even USA have abandoned aggressive debt repayments. People seem to think that debt repayment would have been the only way out of this mess... but the USA decided that old style Keynesian reinvestment was a better bet.

I think ultimately the Tories gamble paid off thus far, which is why I'm not necessarily talking about the last 5 years... just the next 5. But I would argue that the sole reason why it paid off is because they were able to sell the picture that the british people were the most gullible people in the world and would essentially chop their grandma in half in order to ensure that Fred Goodwin gets his £342,500 a year pension for running RBS into the ground

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By *arry247Couple
over a year ago

Wakefield

This thread shows exactly why successive Labour governments have failed the UK.

It is true that some debt is good however debt must always be kept under control and must always be affordable.

What happened in the last Labour government is they piled on debt when they should have been cutting the deficit and as a result when the crash happened the country could not borrow to ride the crash because it was already over extended.

When debt is high and the deficit is high lenders will either refuse loans or demand higher interest on the loans.

By reducing the deficit the Coalition have managed to keep the interest rates the country has to pay lenders relatively low. The deficit needs to be eliminated so the country can reduce its debt (note reduce, the debt does not have to be eliminated) to enable the UK economy to grow.

Uncontrolled borrowing will give a short term boost but it will also cause another crash when the funds run short again.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"This thread shows exactly why successive Labour governments have failed the UK.

It is true that some debt is good however debt must always be kept under control and must always be affordable.

What happened in the last Labour government is they piled on debt when they should have been cutting the deficit and as a result when the crash happened the country could not borrow to ride the crash because it was already over extended.

When debt is high and the deficit is high lenders will either refuse loans or demand higher interest on the loans.

By reducing the deficit the Coalition have managed to keep the interest rates the country has to pay lenders relatively low. The deficit needs to be eliminated so the country can reduce its debt (note reduce, the debt does not have to be eliminated) to enable the UK economy to grow.

Uncontrolled borrowing will give a short term boost but it will also cause another crash when the funds run short again.

"

But the Tories have borrowed much more than labour did...public spending increased in the last 5 years...

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By *hattyman80Man
over a year ago

stockport

I'd just like to point out that all these "new jobs" are actually zero hour contracts which means they can technically say the person is no longer unemployed yet they usually still receive benefits as they can't guarantee if they'll work 6 hours or 40 in any one week. Total sham. Just a way to con the public

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By *arry247Couple
over a year ago

Wakefield

Exactly the point because during the boom times the deficit was not reduced the debt interest added to the debt.

Until the deficit is eliminated the debt will continue to rise

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"Exactly the point because during the boom times the deficit was not reduced the debt interest added to the debt.

Until the deficit is eliminated the debt will continue to rise

"

So we've reduced the deficit...by borrowing more than we ever have done...and increasing our national debt massively?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Some people get the way the system works and some people hold onto that structure they personally perceive!.

I've had this out with people on here before..... There is no growth without growing debt!!.

The problem is not government debt but personal debt? Most people in the first world are over leveraged!, the system can't increase the debt to get the growth, therefore we have to import people, that's why all the first world countries are encouraging immigration.

Of course nobody in politics will debate this because the obvious question is.... What happens when the immigrants become over leveraged!!

It's a sustainability question that's been debated in economics for years!. The trouble with politics is, it deals in five year terms!.

All governments are increasing their debt to try to make up the shortfall in personal debt.

George Osborne and balls love to use the credit card analogy for government debt because that's the way most peoples brains think about money but it's an utterly idiotic analogy..... If you repay debt you end up with less money that's just a fact!

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

That may be correct for how the system currently works - we need confidence that there will be future prosperity, particularly here where financial services rule the roost.

The moment confidence ebbs it all comes crashing down however, hence we are where we are.

I'd argue more investment in education for emerging technologies, and anything else related to generating income by exporting brain power would create much more confidence for the long term and help to move us away from a fragile dependence on what is essentially economic bullshit.

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By *ere-for-my-convenienceWoman
over a year ago

Tenbury Wells

I think they are wrong simply because they're tories

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By (user no longer on site) OP   
over a year ago


"George Osborne and balls love to use the credit card analogy for government debt because that's the way most peoples brains think about money but it's an utterly idiotic analogy"

Amen to that one I also liked your points abut personal debt... I hadn't thought about it that way before

Perhaps a better credit card analoy is where 10 people go on a shopping spree, the one who spends the least wins, whilst the one who spends the most looses. Only a mug would be anywhere other than in the middle of the spread, keeping an eye on what everyone else is spending, and changing gears when needed to keep up with the herd.

People talk about the problem of these people owing the debt. But governments don't owe debts... they CREATE debts. Thus, the more they spend, the more money goes into circulation. Unlike people, who owe somebody somewhere, governments only owe "the system".

In reality, if all countries had decided simply to not pay any of their debts after the crash, as Ireland and Greece have tried to incite us to do, then all the debt would've been wiped. This kind of debt repudiation has happened from time to time down through history so it's not as absurd as it sounds. The system just jams up, needs to get moving again, and so eats the cost of the debt forgiveness in favour of the prospect of growth.

Obviously this didn't happen. But I believe it is almost certain that over the coming 5 years more and more countries will loosen their belts, look to invest in growth again, and learn to live with "acceptable levels of debt". Thus, the tories one-trick poney would be a bit of a disaster thx for provoking the little grey cells Sexybum

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By *carineMan
over a year ago

Armthorpe, Doncaster

At least the tories will cut child benefits, thus stopping the royals from having any more spoilt brats.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Not sure our creditors would agree that we don't owe any debt

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"At least the tories will cut child benefits, thus stopping the royals from having any more spoilt brats."

Yeah that'll fix things right up

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"At least the tories will cut child benefits, thus stopping the royals from having any more spoilt brats."

Rather have Putin as your head of state would you?

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By (user no longer on site) OP   
over a year ago


"At least the tories will cut child benefits, thus stopping the royals from having any more spoilt brats.

Rather have Putin as your head of state would you?"

I'm guessing he'd rather just have the head of the head of state

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By *at69driveMan
over a year ago

Hertford


"At least the tories will cut child benefits, thus stopping the royals from having any more spoilt brats."
. Why do you refer to them as spoiled brats?. Most if then work very hard for their country and are under intense scrutiny from members of the public.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

ALL our politicians are wrong. The old question of 'how do you know when a politician is lying?' ...answer being 'when he or she speaks'.

We need a federal system, like the Swiss have. Take a look at how successful and wealthy that country is, achieved by placing faith and power in the hands of the people.

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By *illwill69uMan
over a year ago

moston


"The Conservatives have done a great job of managing the economy in difficult times. Lots of new jobs have been created , car sales are at an all time high , and the FTSE is close to an all time high . "

You think you're so clever and part of the home owning rich,

Your kids were born in National Health Hospitals,

You'll never be Tory but you can suck Eton boy dicks.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"Why do you refer to them as spoiled brats?. Most if then work very hard for their country and are under intense scrutiny from members of the public. "

I guess some people feel they don't all deserve to live the life of privilege nor have the authority they do...simply due to lineage.

I find the lavish celebrations and ceremonies a bit cheesy....

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By *rp861Man
over a year ago

Notts

Dont think anyone has mentioned the interest that is added to the money created! Basically means that there will never be enough money in circulation to pay back all debts. And turns countries into a financial game of musical chairs, where inevitably people go bankrupt.

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By *at69driveMan
over a year ago

Hertford


"The Conservatives have done a great job of managing the economy in difficult times. Lots of new jobs have been created , car sales are at an all time high , and the FTSE is close to an all time high .

You think you're so clever and part of the home owning rich,

Your kids were born in National Health Hospitals,

You'll never be Tory but you can suck Eton boy dicks."
I quoted a few key statistics concerning performance of the economy . I am uncertain as to how either use of the NHS or Eton has an impact on this.

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By *rp861Man
over a year ago

Notts

The quality of jobs created under the tories arent anything to shout about. But still count towards their statistics. 0 hour contracts anyone?

And using new cars as a measure of how well an economy is doing is ridiculous. They make it sound like people go to a show room with 20k to buy a car outright! Just more debt im afraid, or leasing plans where no one owns anything

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By *ath_Neil_bifunCouple
over a year ago

near cardiff

Debt debt debt..

Almost all countries are in debt...

No country has ever thrived paying off debt.countries thrive after defaulting though.

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By *at69driveMan
over a year ago

Hertford


"The quality of jobs created under the tories arent anything to shout about. But still count towards their statistics. 0 hour contracts anyone?

And using new cars as a measure of how well an economy is doing is ridiculous. They make it sound like people go to a show room with 20k to buy a car outright! Just more debt im afraid, or leasing plans where no one owns anything "
. The leasing of cars at highly competitive rates can on many occasions be more cost effective as there will be no unpredicable maintenance costs . Car exports from the UK are now at at all time high . Zero hours contracts are ideal for those who want flexibility in their work arrangements .

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By *0shadesOfFilthMan
over a year ago

nearby

Money is isssued as debt

If you collected all the notes and coinage in the world it would amount to 3% of the world debt

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By *thwalescplCouple
over a year ago

brecon


"so your idea is to load up debt and more debt and more... and leave the whole f** mess for your kids and grand kids to sort out... Brilliant idea

This is exactly the fallacy which the Tories are playing upon. All countries are in debt. We don't get any prizes for killing off half our population in order to pay ours off. Instead, as your point highlights, all were looking to be is the best at paying them off... that's all we need to show in order to be the top of the pile... in order to evade all those horrible things you talk about. We don't have to pay it off... that's a mug's game. Instead, we need to change gears, moving from debt repayment into reinvestment at just the same time as all the other countries do... or else we'll be left behind with nicely balanced books but no growth.

Just to clarify... we are already paying debts from WWI etc... and, to my knowledge, all countries are the same. Thus, the kids or grand kids won't need to sort it out any more than we've been called upon to sort it out... its just an unfortunate fact of life. You want to start a business? You need investment. You want growth? You need investment. That's the missing ingredient which is stalling the small business economy at the mo imo"

The UK's WW2 debt to America was paid off a Cpl of years ago.

Debt is bad... its not just the money you owe, that's ok, its the interest on that sum that does the damage.

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By *isexmistressWoman
over a year ago

Prestwich


"Chuckles so China is better off...hmmm we shall speak about that in 5 years when China goes "Bang" with loads of smoke...

Love it when people wade in to such discussions about finance and debt... China has the worst debt to credit ratio anywhere in the world and only reason why there has been no Big Bang (sorry the pun to the series) is that they were able to export cheap... But their markets have gone flat line so no growth no income so nothing for their bills... Ask Russia how much China owes to them for gas and oil - BP, Shell Exxon are green with envy

And for Cameron being wrong great...so your idea is to load up debt and more debt and more... and leave the whole f** mess for your kids and grand kids to sort out... Brilliant idea ... go for it but when interest rates hit 17 % and jobless rates 40% wonder who you will blame then ? Tories Labour SNP Liberal Greens ... the raving loon Monster Party ?

If people would read 1" of history the ballooning of debt was used once before in the UK ask Harold Wilson and look what happened... and it wasn't Thatcher who closed the ship yards and the coal mines ... yes it was Wilson, the friendly next door guy with the pipe in his face..

His government and party drew up the list of 200 coal mines to be closed, that the ship yards got their legs cut off and that the wool industry was sent "South"...

So pick up a History book and read before sending out "great" ideas thanks"

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"The quality of jobs created under the tories arent anything to shout about. But still count towards their statistics. 0 hour contracts anyone?

And using new cars as a measure of how well an economy is doing is ridiculous. They make it sound like people go to a show room with 20k to buy a car outright! Just more debt im afraid, or leasing plans where no one owns anything . The leasing of cars at highly competitive rates can on many occasions be more cost effective as there will be no unpredicable maintenance costs . Car exports from the UK are now at at all time high . Zero hours contracts are ideal for those who want flexibility in their work arrangements ."

People I know on zero hour contracts don't get to choose which hours they work,they get given what is available. Some months my friend had zero hours.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"George Osborne and balls love to use the credit card analogy for government debt because that's the way most peoples brains think about money but it's an utterly idiotic analogy

Amen to that one I also liked your points abut personal debt... I hadn't thought about it that way before

Perhaps a better credit card analoy is where 10 people go on a shopping spree, the one who spends the least wins, whilst the one who spends the most looses. Only a mug would be anywhere other than in the middle of the spread, keeping an eye on what everyone else is spending, and changing gears when needed to keep up with the herd.

People talk about the problem of these people owing the debt. But governments don't owe debts... they CREATE debts. Thus, the more they spend, the more money goes into circulation. Unlike people, who owe somebody somewhere, governments only owe "the system".

In reality, if all countries had decided simply to not pay any of their debts after the crash, as Ireland and Greece have tried to incite us to do, then all the debt would've been wiped. This kind of debt repudiation has happened from time to time down through history so it's not as absurd as it sounds. The system just jams up, needs to get moving again, and so eats the cost of the debt forgiveness in favour of the prospect of growth.

Obviously this didn't happen. But I believe it is almost certain that over the coming 5 years more and more countries will loosen their belts, look to invest in growth again, and learn to live with "acceptable levels of debt". Thus, the tories one-trick poney would be a bit of a disaster thx for provoking the little grey cells Sexybum "
.

Personal debt I think is somewhere around 5 times government debt, it's how the system creates money and why were always in a boom during high borrowing, because in effect there's always plenty of money around, if people pay back debt early or stop taking out credit the banks get over leveraged and therefore have to call in loans early, it's exactly what rbs got caught out doing a few years back, deliberately crashing good businesses.

There now constantly trying to create more bubbles and borrowing to inflate the money supply from the deflationary trend were in.

But the question nobody's answering is what to do with the overloaded debt we already have.

The banks of last resort can't soak up the bad debt forever with QE and there's a long line of new bad debt on the future horizon!

Is this the end of capitalism as we know it... Probably?, a new world reserve sometime within ten years, probably from the IMF in some form of banking credits?, one things for sure it will collapse fast and nobody is going to tell you when..... But there'll look surprised when it does

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By *entadreadMan
over a year ago

Essex


"Chuckles so China is better off...hmmm we shall speak about that in 5 years when China goes "Bang" with loads of smoke...

Love it when people wade in to such discussions about finance and debt... China has the worst debt to credit ratio anywhere in the world and only reason why there has been no Big Bang (sorry the pun to the series) is that they were able to export cheap... But their markets have gone flat line so no growth no income so nothing for their bills... Ask Russia how much China owes to them for gas and oil - BP, Shell Exxon are green with envy

And for Cameron being wrong great...so your idea is to load up debt and more debt and more... and leave the whole f** mess for your kids and grand kids to sort out... Brilliant idea ... go for it but when interest rates hit 17 % and jobless rates 40% wonder who you will blame then ? Tories Labour SNP Liberal Greens ... the raving loon Monster Party ?

If people would read 1" of history the ballooning of debt was used once before in the UK ask Harold Wilson and look what happened... and it wasn't Thatcher who closed the ship yards and the coal mines ... yes it was Wilson, the friendly next door guy with the pipe in his face..

His government and party drew up the list of 200 coal mines to be closed, that the ship yards got their legs cut off and that the wool industry was sent "South"...

So pick up a History book and read before sending out "great" ideas thanks"

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By *ngel n tedCouple
over a year ago

maidstone

Fucking foreign fish coming here and growing legs, coming up our beaches and eating our insects. And don't get me started on those vikings, saxons and normans, coming here....fucking boat loads of em there were....

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"The problem with the world economy is that money has no fixed value any more. Instead it only has relative value. During the last government those countries who managed to convince their citizens to pay off their debts have rebounded back far better than those who haven't. This is not because they are repaying their debts, but because they have shown the markets that their citizens are gullible enough to pay off bankers debts... and this makes them favourable countries to do business in.

Cameron's philosophical goal is to make Britain the most gullible country in the world, the one who will chop off its own arm to pay bankers bonuses. The result of this will be that Britain becomes the best place in the world to do big business. I believe this is mistaken.

Instead, it occurs to me that the only way out of this financial crisis (without returning to the gold standard) is when most countries return to the relative standing they had in the world before it. Until that happens those who are under will trouble those who are ontop (think Greece vs. Germany). Thus, Cameron's goal is a pipedream. Instead, economic stability will come through a return to how things were. This means that no one country can come out of this more favourably than it went into it, apart from perhaps China.

I predict that this next 5 years will see a change in most countries away from debt repayment and towards funding their growth via inreased debts. Why? Because debt = good. Debt = good in society i.e. people using their credit cards again... and debt = good in government. Think of it this way... few businesses get started without investment i.e. without debt. Debt makes things happen... and debt is what gives money value. Banks need to invest in small businesses.. and that means returning to debt again. The tories would be exactly the wrong party to have in power during this transition... though who else should be in power instead of them is beyond me.

We already know that other countries have far worse debt than ours so it is pointless wiping out our debt when we can build up our society, get the middle classes spending again, and invest in things that promote growth such as infrastructure and still come out top of the pile.

Not all of what I have written here is my own opinion... it just strikes me to be the state of capitalism as it curently stands. Thought it would provoke some debate though.. have fun "

Well we don't know about all that , but just wondered if you fancied a fuck ?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"Chuckles so China is better off...hmmm we shall speak about that in 5 years when China goes "Bang" with loads of smoke...

Love it when people wade in to such discussions about finance and debt... China has the worst debt to credit ratio anywhere in the world and only reason why there has been no Big Bang (sorry the pun to the series) is that they were able to export cheap... But their markets have gone flat line so no growth no income so nothing for their bills... Ask Russia how much China owes to them for gas and oil - BP, Shell Exxon are green with envy

And for Cameron being wrong great...so your idea is to load up debt and more debt and more... and leave the whole f** mess for your kids and grand kids to sort out... Brilliant idea ... go for it but when interest rates hit 17 % and jobless rates 40% wonder who you will blame then ? Tories Labour SNP Liberal Greens ... the raving loon Monster Party ?

If people would read 1" of history the ballooning of debt was used once before in the UK ask Harold Wilson and look what happened... and it wasn't Thatcher who closed the ship yards and the coal mines ... yes it was Wilson, the friendly next door guy with the pipe in his face..

His government and party drew up the list of 200 coal mines to be closed, that the ship yards got their legs cut off and that the wool industry was sent "South"...

So pick up a History book and read before sending out "great" ideas thanks"
.

If your reading history I suggest try starting with the 1973-74 oil crises, most of the problems of the 70s were almost unavoidable after that!, you certainly couldn't blame debt the UK national debt to gdp consistently feel from ww2 all the way through to the 80s.

Back before globalisation we used to buy growth with debt in the boom years after ww2 for every pound of debt we'd get 3 pound of growth this went down to 1-2 during Thatcher 1-1 during the 90s and in the last 7 years were getting 1 pound of growth for 3 pounds of debt!!.

Just in case you've not noticed all the central banks these last few years have been buying their own bonds, were in a massive bond bubble along with Europe and the US, this debt problem isn't just the UK it's a global debt problem.

In fact I found it quite interesting to read the quote from the Saudis over the oil price.. They said this isn't about the supply and demand of oil, this is about the supply of credit!!.

Without that debt nobody is buying any of that shit that everybody makes!, it's a catch 22 scenario that quite frankly has bamboozled the best economists for years..... How do you keep a ponzi pyramid scheme going exponentially on a finite planet!!!!!

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By *ike4362ukMan
over a year ago

Cheshunt

We are presently in a global version of the 'zero percent interest card' trap. We keep botrowing from the future hoping that 'growth' will get us out of the mess.

In the meantime the Governments throw their hands on the air trying to regulate the mess and pander to the banks and major corporations. The corporations have no loyalty except to themselves. They don't exist to generate this magical national growth. Compounding the failure to capitalise on the 'growth' is that the corporations and individuals with the greatest income cultivate relationships with individuals in Government and at HMRC to get sweetheart deals to avoid contributing towards 'the general good'.

It's a bloody corrupt mess and I can only see things getting worse.

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By *oodmessMan
over a year ago

yumsville


"mpassion you make no sense to me.

lol me tinks you're not the only one.

However it's simple... debt repayment is stage one... we debt repay just as long as all other countries are also repaying their debts... this is first gear.

However...the minute other countries start reinvesting in their growth again i.e. USA and start happily letting their debt belts out a bit more then we need to follow suit otherwise they'll all be in second gear whilst we're chugging along in first gear.

A vote for the tories is a vote for a 5 year commitment to debt repayment. I think this is almost certain to end in disaster economically, as other countries move into second gear and overtake us...

make any more sense? lol"

The USA have had to raise their debt ceiling twice! it is currently over $18 trillion - that is currently $56,000 pp. It is forecast to be close to $28 trillion by 2020! You say that money has no value, and the US is happily letting out it's belt. NOT SO! Sooner or later lenders will will want their money back and stop financing governments. Like we are now seeing with Greece, the US will have to repay, or enter into serious negotiations to stave off going bust!

Whilst, their economy is growing (inconsistently), the unemployment rate is still above 5% despite so much quantitative easing.

Voting for Tory, Labour or Libs will mean we will still lend - ALL COUNTRIES HAVE TO LEND. The only difference is the amount of potential or planned lending. It stands to reason, the more you lend, the longer it takes to repay... I'd like to add-in here, that Labour have given a 'manyana' timescale here lol.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

China buys most of America's bonds, they have a 5 trillion national debt but an 11 trillion foreign reserve, when you export more than you import, your currency should be sky high but that's no use for exporting so China like all the other exports keeps spending that excess cash on bonds.....

The secret is just not to be the weakest as one thing capitalism loves is picking on the weakest!.

This novel concept of a free market is just that.... A concept. nearly every government for a hundred years has been quietly fucking around with it, the Keynesian policy makers think they know best, that they can second guess a trillion transactions that markets make but by far the worse mistake they've ever made is thinking they can save those banks... You can't, those banks will fail, it's just a matter of time, the annoying thing is what they were really saving was the wealthy, they were the real losers in a bank failure and that is exactly what's meant to happen in capitalism, it's how it stops all the wealth being hoarded by the top 0.01% and is the exact reason the global economy is buggered.

Those banks should have failed those wealthy people should have lost billions, that debt should have been wiped out, that is the natural order of capitalism and how capital gets put to use!.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"China buys most of America's bonds, they have a 5 trillion national debt but an 11 trillion foreign reserve, when you export more than you import, your currency should be sky high but that's no use for exporting so China like all the other exports keeps spending that excess cash on bonds.....

The secret is just not to be the weakest as one thing capitalism loves is picking on the weakest!.

This novel concept of a free market is just that.... A concept. nearly every government for a hundred years has been quietly fucking around with it, the Keynesian policy makers think they know best, that they can second guess a trillion transactions that markets make but by far the worse mistake they've ever made is thinking they can save those banks... You can't, those banks will fail, it's just a matter of time, the annoying thing is what they were really saving was the wealthy, they were the real losers in a bank failure and that is exactly what's meant to happen in capitalism, it's how it stops all the wealth being hoarded by the top 0.01% and is the exact reason the global economy is buggered.

Those banks should have failed those wealthy people should have lost billions, that debt should have been wiped out, that is the natural order of capitalism and how capital gets put to use!."

You're almost libertarian in your economics!

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

It's not my system but I've read enough about it to understand its failures.

The problem in a nutshell is the wealthy have to much influence in politics.... There's nobody to save them from themselves!!

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By (user no longer on site) OP   
over a year ago


"How do you keep a ponzi pyramid scheme going exponentially on a finite planet!!!!! "


"Those banks should have failed those wealthy people should have lost billions, that debt should have been wiped out, that is the natural order of capitalism and how capital gets put to use!."

you're awesome sexy-bum As you say... it's not the world we might want... but it's how things currently work

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By (user no longer on site) OP   
over a year ago


"You say that money has no value, and the US is happily letting out it's belt. NOT SO! Sooner or later lenders will will want their money back and stop financing governments. Like we are now seeing with Greece, the US will have to repay, or enter into serious negotiations to stave off going bust!"

One thing a lot of people miss about government debt is they think it's the same as personal debt i.e. they imagine that Bob has taken a loan from Gerald and that, sooner or later Gerald will need his money back so he can loan it to Susan. Government tends to work quite differently. Instead it often involves creating money out of thin air. There isn't anyone who needs it back... there isn't anyone who is missing it. It didn't exist before... the government asked for it...so it got printed up... and now it owes it back "theoretically". As the money didn't exist before it wouldn't cost anyone anything to just cancel the debt. Nobody is waiting on it to pay off their mortgage. It was nobody's money. It didn't exist. The real reason why countries like Greece arer being forced to repay is not because someone needs it back. It's because, if they didn't, they'd set a terrible precedent and pretty soon all countries would be queueing up to cancel their own debts.

This is why it's not actually a game of paying people back... but a game of appearences. Cameron has given off the appearence that the British are THE most willing to pay it back at all costs, which is why I say he's shown we're the most gullible people. It is only that gullibility that has value... not the money itself. Anyway... that's the way I see it lol

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By (user no longer on site) OP   
over a year ago


"Well we don't know about all that , but just wondered if you fancied a fuck ? "

Gloswingers... trust you guys to get straight to the heart of the matter And the answer is... only if you don't vote UKIP lol

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I don't the UK's creditors will consider the debt as thin air!

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"I don't the UK's creditors will consider the debt as thin air!"
.

1-3% of currency is created by governments, it's called base money.... 97-99% is created by banks through lending, commerce, transactions, that's called m2 and m3 money.

After the banking crises people asked the question.... What did Greece, Iceland, banks etc etc do with all that money, the answer is...

It never existed except on a banks ledger in 0&1s.

M2&M3 currency has been falling from 2007 because borrowing has fallen, governments are attempting to create more base money through QE to make up for that loss!

After that you try to inflate any asset bubble to create that m2&m3 money , stocks, housing, bonds, student debt..... It's the quick solution to a hard problem but obviously comes with the question... What do you do with the asset bubble debt? US students currently owe more money than US credit card debt!!...100,000$ per student who's currently getting jobs paying 30,000$ if their lucky! Does that sound sustainable to you?.... Of course not but debt equals growth & money!! And so the merry go round spins on.... For now.

I'm afraid the op is absolutely right, Money has no intrinsic value the paper did have value until it was printed on, after its just scrap paper, the value is labour you expect to receive from it, when you start to doubt whether you'll get your labour the value declines rapidly, Zimbabwe once printed a trillion dollar note only a few years back, you can buy one for 1p?

Here's a question you might know the answer to and if you don't it may surprise you....

Fort Knox and all that gold, how did it get there?.

The trouble with generations is... They all make the same mistakes and never remember the past!

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

It can't be claimed 'there isn't anybody that needs it back' when people/companies/states have purchased bonds - clearly they were purchased on the basis of getting a return!

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By *illwill69uMan
over a year ago

moston

I will repeat to all those conservative voters and supports:

You think you're so clever and part of the home owning aspirational rich.

Your kids were born in National Health Hospitals and they go to state schools. You all rely on the safety net provided by the state to provide for you and protect you and your families in hard times. These are all things provided for you by socialist governments and opposed by Tories.

You'll never be Tory but you all know how to suck Eton boy dicks and help them grind you down!

Listen to this song from the 70's and think!

https://youtu.be/njG7p6CSbCU

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By *oo hotCouple
over a year ago

North West

[Removed by poster at 05/05/15 09:24:37]

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"It can't be claimed 'there isn't anybody that needs it back' when people/companies/states have purchased bonds - clearly they were purchased on the basis of getting a return!"
.

Nobody really buys bonds except the people through pensions.

Most of the central banks have very mysterious buyers that in all likelihood are other central banks, that is the depths that the markets are stooping to!.

They love secret lives unhindered by government accountability.

That was my point about fort Knox, the gold there was acquired during the great depression in the 30s, Roosevelt issued a law that all gold must be surrendered to the government for the sum of $20, this was done to try and maintain the illusion that currency is worth something, in reality the government confiscated real wealth from its citizens and gave them some bits of paper saying they would hold the gold in good faith!!... Ha you try getting in fort Knox to see if it's still there let alone trying to get it back!

It's an illusion on a grand scale

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I don't need convincing the financial system is a currency of bullshit. Got the T-shirt.

But it's bullshit that needs a credible replacement and that can't be achieved by pretending the govt doesn't have to pay interest on debts. That particular solution would fuck things up in an almighty way.

Then again you could call it Quantitative Adjustment and do whatever you want. For a while at least..

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"I don't need convincing the financial system is a currency of bullshit. Got the T-shirt.

But it's bullshit that needs a credible replacement and that can't be achieved by pretending the govt doesn't have to pay interest on debts. That particular solution would fuck things up in an almighty way.

Then again you could call it Quantitative Adjustment and do whatever you want. For a while at least..

"
.

I wasn't trying to convince you of anything, I find the current capitalist system to be quite interesting, it's an illusion like Christmas, nearly everyone is in on it except for the kids but we all play along anyhow!.

A new world monetary standard comes along nearly every 40 years, were well over overdue!.

Personally speaking from the point of a green party member, I find this whole last 40 years of consumerism capitalism to be a funny, dangerous, reckless but interesting chapter!, I'll be very happy to see it end shortly for the sake of the planet but not gleeful about the chaos it will cause

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"Well we don't know about all that , but just wondered if you fancied a fuck ?

Gloswingers... trust you guys to get straight to the heart of the matter And the answer is... only if you don't vote UKIP lol "

Absolutely no chance of us voting ukip so game on !

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"

A new world monetary standard comes along nearly every 40 years, were well over overdue!.

Personally speaking from the point of a green party member, I find this whole last 40 years of consumerism capitalism to be a funny, dangerous, reckless but interesting chapter!, I'll be very happy to see it end shortly for the sake of the planet but not gleeful about the chaos it will cause "

It'll take something more militant and with more clout than the green movement to force change - a big power defaulting on debts perhaps.

Iceland is interesting.

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By *anchestercubMan
over a year ago

manchester & NI

I've just read the leaked reports on plans drawn up for potential benefits cuts.

It doesn't make for easy reading.

I know the civil service is required to draw up the list but imagine the reality.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"Exactly the point because during the boom times the deficit was not reduced the debt interest added to the debt.

Until the deficit is eliminated the debt will continue to rise

So we've reduced the deficit...by borrowing more than we ever have done...and increasing our national debt massively?

"

no we've reduced the deficit which means we're borrowing less but we still have all the old debt so we still have a very high total debt.

think of it as for the past 10 years you've borrowed 1000 pound every year, but this year you've only borrowed 500 pound.

You've halved your deficit but you still have more debt than ever before.

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By *at69driveMan
over a year ago

Hertford


"I will repeat to all those conservative voters and supports:

You think you're so clever and part of the home owning aspirational rich.

Your kids were born in National Health Hospitals and they go to state schools. You all rely on the safety net provided by the state to provide for you and protect you and your families in hard times. These are all things provided for you by socialist governments and opposed by Tories.

You'll never be Tory but you all know how to suck Eton boy dicks and help them grind you down!

Listen to this song from the 70's and think!

https://youtu.be/njG7p6CSbCU"
. Who ever said that the conservative government opposed state schools , the National Health Service or the government state welfare system? What relevance does Eton have to the economy ? .

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I think it was more a personal fantasy he was sharing

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"China buys most of America's bonds, they have a 5 trillion national debt but an 11 trillion foreign reserve, when you export more than you import, your currency should be sky high but that's no use for exporting so China like all the other exports keeps spending that excess cash on bonds.....

.

"

china very much likes having enough dollars to threaten to dump on the market whenever America wants to try and get it to revalue its currency.

china has really embraced the modern methods of war namely economic and cyber possibly more than anyone else at least in regards tyo willingness to use them. the UK and USA have shown considerable skill but much less desire to open that pandoras box.

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By *nnyMan
over a year ago

Glasgow


"..... Who ever said that the conservative government opposed state schools , the National Health Service or the government state welfare system? ."

Me. The Tories hate anything you can't squeeze money out of.

You can add social housing to the above list.

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By *anchestercubMan
over a year ago

manchester & NI


"

You can add social housing to the above list."

Tell that to Ian Gow's son.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"The problem with the world economy is that money has no fixed value any more. "

just to point out here absolutely NOTHING has a fixed value.

For example how much would you pay for a bottle of water right now?

70p? a pound?

How much would you pay if you were dying of thirst and it was the only water within miles?

your car? deeds to your house?

Value is always relative to need.

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By *rightonsteveMan
over a year ago

Brighton - even Hove!

I like Eton Mess but I don't want it in Government.

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By *oodmessMan
over a year ago

yumsville


"I like Eton Mess but I don't want it in Government. "

hmmm instead the options are looking positively rosy

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"I like Eton Mess but I don't want it in Government. "

You're not alone

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By *REEN GRASSMan
over a year ago

worcester

I think u need to wake up and smell the coffee.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"

A new world monetary standard comes along nearly every 40 years, were well over overdue!.

Personally speaking from the point of a green party member, I find this whole last 40 years of consumerism capitalism to be a funny, dangerous, reckless but interesting chapter!, I'll be very happy to see it end shortly for the sake of the planet but not gleeful about the chaos it will cause

It'll take something more militant and with more clout than the green movement to force change - a big power defaulting on debts perhaps.

Iceland is interesting.

"
.

Lol the green movement can't even get whaling banned/enforced I doubt we'll bring down the system!!.

It will be something along the lines as simple as energy consumption I'm afraid!, barring some miraculous invention,eventually energy eroi will use up all the capital and that will be the end of that!

I wish people would stop referring to the "boom years" as if we had been doing something different than what we're currently doing today.... The boom years were caused by excessive debt without the excessive debt we wouldn't have had the boom and all that cash that caused the boom.

People still don't get it, without more debt there's no growth!

Excessive debt gives excessive booms!,I don't remember anyone moaning about the money they didn't have that they spent on trivial shit like holidays, cars, kitchens, conservatoires between 2001 and 2007..... Oh you mean it's fine for people to spend money they don't have but not government's .

When those bankers threw themselves out of the office window in 1929 on wall St, they just couldn't believe what had happened, they thought the good times would go on forever!! The world feel into a depression from 29 to 39 and was only saved by the mother of all wars!

I find it very worrying when the general public think everything's fine if we just cut 1% from this and 3% from that!

The last financial crises in 73-74 saw of unions, changed working practises, brought about working mother's and changed the world from national capitalism to global capitalism, all because oil went up four fold.

The one thing I know for sure is 1% here or 3% there ain't curing shit, that is the bullshit hand manoeuvring that the magician bamboozles his audience with while up his sleeve is the shit he's going to hit you with.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Energy consumption is a good call

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By *rightonsteveMan
over a year ago

Brighton - even Hove!


"I think u need to wake up and smell the coffee."

It's more helpful in a thread if you quote the person you're referring to.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"Energy consumption is a good call "
.

There's somebody on here that always goes "fracking yay they can frack my back garden and we'll all be rich".

Well I hate to be the one to point this out but..... The debt burden of fracking is five times the size of the US sub prime debt that threw us into the shit were currently in!.

That's the trend big debt gives big boom.... Stock market booming... Big debt problem lurking

Housing booming..... Big debt problem lurking

Huge student numbers.... Big debt problem lurking.

The only thing that goes boom without big debt behind it is a bomb

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By *rightonsteveMan
over a year ago

Brighton - even Hove!

Boom!

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Basil Brush?

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By *abrina59TV/TS
over a year ago

moved to cuckold land

Seems reading through thread thst yes additional debt inveted wisely can generate additional wealth

However invested badly and we be ad well as pissing money down the plughole

So who do you trust to invest wisely Cameron, Milliband, Clegg, Sturgeon, Farage

You see thsts the problem with Britsh politics at moment you wouldnt trust any of them to even manage piss it down the plughole properly

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Farage looks less and less relevant. I remember 2 or 3 years ago these forums were full of UKIP threads. Now the time of reckoning is near... it's oh so quiet..

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

watch 97% owned on youtube and it explains money and what has gone wrong with it,, It is a good documentary but it is heavy and make sure you have your thinking cap on

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"Farage looks less and less relevant. I remember 2 or 3 years ago these forums were full of UKIP threads. Now the time of reckoning is near... it's oh so quiet.. "

Minority/one policy parties support always tails off come election time as people realise there's no point. Plus half of minority party supporters don't vote they just like to be different during the course of the government

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"Seems reading through thread thst yes additional debt inveted wisely can generate additional wealth

However invested badly and we be ad well as pissing money down the plughole

So who do you trust to invest wisely Cameron, Milliband, Clegg, Sturgeon, Farage

You see thsts the problem with Britsh politics at moment you wouldnt trust any of them to even manage piss it down the plughole properly"
.

That's a very good question about what you invest your debt into!.

Now the UK has done around 400 billion of QE(that's your money) and all that money has gone to banks and investment firms for practically free, because it's so cheap they've ploughed it into buying their own stock or risky investments like fracking.

For instance there's several fracking companies who are now defaulting on the junk bonds they issued, many of these firms raised hundreds of millions at around 6 or 7%despite having junk bond rating ccc that's many levels below the standard for investment, that's why there called junk bonds!!.

So well done uk PLC for throwing money at junk bond companies who've rarely made a profit?

when the green party say well throw money at renewable energy and some paper prints a story about windmills everybody laughs at the folly... Yep much better to just piss it away on an industry like fracking that's made a loss and is likely to ruin your environment

The debt spent on fracking is around 2.2 trillion dollars and will soon be biting everybody on the arses but don't worry the people can bail out these reckless capitalist idiots by agreeing to work more hours , cut sick pay, cut health care, put kids to work.....

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

QE isn't anybody's money

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"QE isn't anybody's money"
.

They print money without issuing bonds, so yes it's nobody's money, but then they use that money to buy junk debt from banks, so we the people swap money we never had for debt from banks that were now responsible for!.... Welcome to 21st century capitalism

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"QE isn't anybody's money.

They print money without issuing bonds, so yes it's nobody's money, but then they use that money to buy junk debt from banks, so we the people swap money we never had for debt from banks that were now responsible for!.... Welcome to 21st century capitalism"

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Socialism for the wealthy.... Up the Chelsea popular front

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