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Them Immigrants...

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By *erbyDalesCpl OP   Couple
over a year ago

Derbyshire

So, in the 80s we fed them at Mr Geldof's request.

We gave them wells, (even though this just lowered the water-table further) because Mr Henry told us to.

We helped reduce disease at Pudsy's beckoning.

Finally Mr Walliams and Mr Barlow encouraged us to send mosquito nets.

Many people are alive because of us.

But wait, now they want to better their lives still further. They're dying again, this time on boats. Should we quietly employ torpedo ships in the med? Should we get Oxfam to slip something in the well-water? Should we keep our fingers crossed that they die fighting one another in northern Africa - perhaps we could send guns? Maybe we could leave the problem to other, richer countries, you know, like Greece and Italy and Spain?

Obviously we desparately need people to work in the Nhs etc, but what if they also want their children to go to a school, you know, with OUR children? Or if (omg) they wanted to live in a HOUSE!?

What are we to do?

(Off to ask Zane whatisface, he'll know...)

Mr ddc

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By *iewMan
Forum Mod
over a year ago

Angus & Findhorn

I think it is terribly sad that these people are being exploited by traffickers who have zero regard for life and have taken a kings ransom from them for safe passage....

that level of desperation is unknown to me.

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By *iewMan
Forum Mod
over a year ago

Angus & Findhorn

and of course, some of the passengers are throwing others overboard because they are praying to a different god...

it is all very, very sad

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I'll not turn my back on anyone who through no fault of their own find themselves existing in a state of wretched desperation.....

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Oh dear , can't see this going well , but here's my two penny worth .

The fighting , and problems they have are awful .

The fact they feel it's worth the risk to their lives to escape on unsuitable boats tells its own story .

We are so lucky not to live as they do , and if we can help in some small way , why not ?

One day we may live in an egalitarian world .

A world which sees each and every human being as worthy .

I know we are so far away from this now , but when it happens , times like these will be looked back on with shame .

In the meantime , a bit if help wouldn't go amiss .

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"and of course, some of the passengers are throwing others overboard because they are praying to a different god...

it is all very, very sad"

Yes, all seeking safety running from hell on earth and still they kill.

Will they change their ways if and when they find the security they so desperately seek ?

IMO not on your life will they, there is no ceasefire for some.

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By *oo hotCouple
over a year ago

North West


"So, in the 80s we fed them at Mr Geldof's request.

We gave them wells, (even though this just lowered the water-table further) because Mr Henry told us to.

We helped reduce disease at Pudsy's beckoning.

Finally Mr Walliams and Mr Barlow encouraged us to send mosquito nets.

Many people are alive because of us.

But wait, now they want to better their lives still further. They're dying again, this time on boats. Should we quietly employ torpedo ships in the med? Should we get Oxfam to slip something in the well-water? Should we keep our fingers crossed that they die fighting one another in northern Africa - perhaps we could send guns? Maybe we could leave the problem to other, richer countries, you know, like Greece and Italy and Spain?

Obviously we desparately need people to work in the Nhs etc, but what if they also want their children to go to a school, you know, with OUR children? Or if (omg) they wanted to live in a HOUSE!?

What are we to do?

(Off to ask Zane whatisface, he'll know...)

Mr ddc"

Good thread and some difficult questions for all of us.

Seemingly 10,000 a week and more are escaping persecution, war and generally just a shit life in the hope of a better life in Europe. Many of these are Libyan, iraqi and Syrian people who are of the wrong religion or background.

If you think it bad now, it will be ten times worse if/when Assad gets toppled in Syria. We had an issue with despotic tyrants like assad, gaddafi and saddam Hussain but they largely kept the Middle East under control.

The rise of fanatical religious armies that have spread across Africa is to some degree the result of the elimination of people who for years and years kept that sort of thing in check.

Dealing with these refugees could be the biggest challenge facing Europe ever. I think that this is just the beginning of this exodus which has the potential to reach biblical proportions and cause untold trouble throughout Europe in the coming years.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"I think it is terribly sad that these people are being exploited by traffickers who have zero regard for life and have taken a kings ransom from them for safe passage....

that level of desperation is unknown to me.

"

The desperation people must feel to be prepared to send their children out alone on that journey is just incomprehensible.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Can't imagine how hard it must be to get to the point of traveling half way a across the world with no proper means to do so.

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By *allipygousMan
over a year ago

Leicester


"So, in the 80s we fed them at Mr Geldof's request.

We gave them wells, (even though this just lowered the water-table further) because Mr Henry told us to.

We helped reduce disease at Pudsy's beckoning.

Finally Mr Walliams and Mr Barlow encouraged us to send mosquito nets.

Many people are alive because of us.

But wait, now they want to better their lives still further. They're dying again, this time on boats. Should we quietly employ torpedo ships in the med? Should we get Oxfam to slip something in the well-water? Should we keep our fingers crossed that they die fighting one another in northern Africa - perhaps we could send guns? Maybe we could leave the problem to other, richer countries, you know, like Greece and Italy and Spain?

Obviously we desparately need people to work in the Nhs etc, but what if they also want their children to go to a school, you know, with OUR children? Or if (omg) they wanted to live in a HOUSE!?

What are we to do?

(Off to ask Zane whatisface, he'll know...)

Mr ddc"

The thread title 'Immigrants' has nothing to do with the first part of your post.

Helping to dig clean water wells, trying to cut down on disease, and supplying mosquito nets, did not, to my knowledge, involve helping immigrants. At least no immigrants in this country.

Perhaps you'd have best titled it 'Pesky Foreigners'.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

You could argue that overseas aid helps limit immigration.

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By *inaTitzTV/TS
over a year ago

Titz Towers, North Notts

I'd rather spend money investing in infrastructure and creating a stronger economy in Africa so that there is more to go round and people have a lesser need to fight over scarce resources. It is probably cheaper than investing in lots of boats, fences and security types.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"I'd rather spend money investing in infrastructure and creating a stronger economy in Africa so that there is more to go round and people have a lesser need to fight over scarce resources. It is probably cheaper than investing in lots of boats, fences and security types. "

We've done a fair bit of that. China are doing a fair bit more of it now too. Trouble is we can't help helping ourselves to their minerals and stuff while we're helping out.

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By *icecouple561Couple
Forum Mod
over a year ago

East Sussex


"So, in the 80s we fed them at Mr Geldof's request.

We gave them wells, (even though this just lowered the water-table further) because Mr Henry told us to.

We helped reduce disease at Pudsy's beckoning.

Finally Mr Walliams and Mr Barlow encouraged us to send mosquito nets.

Many people are alive because of us.

But wait, now they want to better their lives still further. They're dying again, this time on boats. Should we quietly employ torpedo ships in the med? Should we get Oxfam to slip something in the well-water? Should we keep our fingers crossed that they die fighting one another in northern Africa - perhaps we could send guns? Maybe we could leave the problem to other, richer countries, you know, like Greece and Italy and Spain?

Obviously we desparately need people to work in the Nhs etc, but what if they also want their children to go to a school, you know, with OUR children? Or if (omg) they wanted to live in a HOUSE!?

What are we to do?

(Off to ask Zane whatisface, he'll know...)

Mr ddc"

"Them" and "they"

Is this a bit tongue in cheek?

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By *erbyDalesCpl OP   Couple
over a year ago

Derbyshire


"

The thread title 'Immigrants' has nothing to do with the first part of your post.

Perhaps you'd have best titled it 'Pesky Foreigners'."

I was merely trying to link the stories in the news about the people desperately trying to reach out country, many of of whom are exactly escaping from Ethiopia, Eritrea and Sudan, and the current _iew that while eu immigration is bad, that from outside the eu....

One can call them immigrants, one can call them foreigners, one can call them black, one can even call them names which would be considered racist. I was wondering perhaps if our _iews would change if we called them human. Like you and I?

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By *icketysplitsWoman
over a year ago

Way over Yonder, that's where I'm bound


"You could argue that overseas aid helps limit immigration."

I do argue that. Overseas aid is a complex beast and those that say we should cut it and "help our own" miss the fact that it does help our own.

I saw a rather ville Twatter posting that letting them die is helping the world.

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By *errygTV/TS
over a year ago

denton

in the eighties i was on a ship that docked in pakistan,i was helping with stores and noticed charity names on boxes, i was told it wasnt the first time ship chandlers selling goods sent over by oxfam etc, if we could get rid of corruption maybe these countries could improve

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By *erbyDalesCpl OP   Couple
over a year ago

Derbyshire


"

"Them" and "they"

Is this a bit tongue in cheek?"

I don't think so, I sometimes like to juxtapose humour and serious issues.

It sometimes makes people think about things differently, and engage in subjects they might otherwise ignore.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"You could argue that overseas aid helps limit immigration.

I do argue that. Overseas aid is a complex beast and those that say we should cut it and "help our own" miss the fact that it does help our own.

I saw a rather ville Twatter posting that letting them die is helping the world."

And miss the fact we would not be in a position to help anybody had we not exploited a large part of the world.

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By *erbyDalesCpl OP   Couple
over a year ago

Derbyshire


"

And miss the fact we would not be in a position to help anybody had we not exploited a large part of the world.

"

British Colonialism is an argument I reject, too many 'what ifs', 'sins of the father' etc.

Ethiopia was one of the oldest kingdoms in the world, and was destroyed by American/Soviet cold-war games in the 70s I believe, after they'd moved on from Vietnam.

But you and Lickety are right, now is not the time to reduce it.

Interesting though that Farrage thinks we can reduce overseas aid AND expect people to stop wanting a better life

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By *erbyDalesCpl OP   Couple
over a year ago

Derbyshire


"I'd rather spend money investing in infrastructure and creating a stronger economy in Africa so that there is more to go round and people have a lesser need to fight over scarce resources. It is probably cheaper than investing in lots of boats, fences and security types. "

But also invest in the infrastructure in our own country, I believe much of the backlash against immigrants is caused by lack of schools, houses, hospitals etc. (As well as opportunist jingoism)

It is ironic that people complain about Polish builders coming over here and 'taking our houses'

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By *icketysplitsWoman
over a year ago

Way over Yonder, that's where I'm bound


"

And miss the fact we would not be in a position to help anybody had we not exploited a large part of the world.

British Colonialism is an argument I reject, too many 'what ifs', 'sins of the father' etc.

Ethiopia was one of the oldest kingdoms in the world, and was destroyed by American/Soviet cold-war games in the 70s I believe, after they'd moved on from Vietnam.

But you and Lickety are right, now is not the time to reduce it.

Interesting though that Farrage thinks we can reduce overseas aid AND expect people to stop wanting a better life"

I can't quite reject the colonial arguments, but then I come from a former colony that was populated by indentured 'slaves' and left in a political mess at independence to appease the Americans at the time. Indenture only ended in 1917. The independence of the colonies is only 40-70 years old. That is no time in the scheme of things.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"and of course, some of the passengers are throwing others overboard because they are praying to a different god...

it is all very, very sad

Yes, all seeking safety running from hell on earth and still they kill.

Will they change their ways if and when they find the security they so desperately seek ?

IMO not on your life will they, there is no ceasefire for some."

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"Or if (omg) they wanted to live in a HOUSE!?

What are we to do?

Mr ddc"

I've been in the situation where I've been jumped in the list for housing by those that come from abroad!!

So I'll happily say STUFF THEM!!

We'll help you with aide in your country but not here!!

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By *icecouple561Couple
Forum Mod
over a year ago

East Sussex


"

"Them" and "they"

Is this a bit tongue in cheek?

I don't think so, I sometimes like to juxtapose humour and serious issues.

It sometimes makes people think about things differently, and engage in subjects they might otherwise ignore.

"

that's sort of what I meant. I thought you were presenting your arguments in a way that was highlighting the them and us attitude etc.

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By *yrdwomanWoman
over a year ago

Putting the 'cum' in Eboracum

The UK is well known for miraculously finding visas for immigrants who are good at sport. If these buggers can swim to Europe they might be worth a punt for next years Olympics.

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By *erbyDalesCpl OP   Couple
over a year ago

Derbyshire


"

I can't quite reject the colonial arguments, but then I come from a former colony that was populated by indentured 'slaves' and left in a political mess at independence to appease the Americans at the time. Indenture only ended in 1917. The independence of the colonies is only 40-70 years old. That is no time in the scheme of things.

"

True, we certainly left behind many problems (Palestine, Kashmir) and little of what was done was for altruistic reasons, but guilt is such a negative reason. It encouages people to put a price on it, pay up then wash their hands of the problem.

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By *allipygousMan
over a year ago

Leicester


"The UK is well known for miraculously finding visas for immigrants who are good at sport. If these buggers can swim to Europe they might be worth a punt for next years Olympics."

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By *erbyDalesCpl OP   Couple
over a year ago

Derbyshire


"

"Them" and "they"

Is this a bit tongue in cheek?

I don't think so, I sometimes like to juxtapose humour and serious issues.

It sometimes makes people think about things differently, and engage in subjects they might otherwise ignore.

that's sort of what I meant. I thought you were presenting your arguments in a way that was highlighting the them and us attitude etc."

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

If someone weaker than you fell in the street, would you help or would you walk on by?

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By *erbyDalesCpl OP   Couple
over a year ago

Derbyshire


"Or if (omg) they wanted to live in a HOUSE!?

What are we to do?

Mr ddc

I've been in the situation where I've been jumped in the list for housing by those that come from abroad!!

So I'll happily say STUFF THEM!!

We'll help you with aide in your country but not here!!"

Or we could build more houses so you could have one too?

'Them immigrants' are picking the vegetables on my table in conditions we would not work in. They are cleaning our hospitals. Some of them are even carrying out the operations.

Don't these people also deserve a bed to lie in?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"Or if (omg) they wanted to live in a HOUSE!?

What are we to do?

Mr ddc

I've been in the situation where I've been jumped in the list for housing by those that come from abroad!!

So I'll happily say STUFF THEM!!

We'll help you with aide in your country but not here!!"

How do you know you were jumped in the list by someone from abroad and not by someone with higher priority who is from the UK?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"

How do you know you were jumped in the list by someone from abroad and not by someone with higher priority who is from the UK? "

Because at the time we had a influx of ppl from abroad because of conflict..

And the local housing department were very honest when I was demanding to know why I hadn't get the flat I was promised as I was the top of the list ..

They actually said it was because it had gone to someone from abroad.,

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"Or if (omg) they wanted to live in a HOUSE!?

What are we to do?

Mr ddc

I've been in the situation where I've been jumped in the list for housing by those that come from abroad!!

So I'll happily say STUFF THEM!!

We'll help you with aide in your country but not here!!

Or we could build more houses so you could have one too?

'Them immigrants' are picking the vegetables on my table in conditions we would not work in. They are cleaning our hospitals. Some of them are even carrying out the operations.

Don't these people also deserve a bed to lie in?"
.

But we can't do that with austerity?.

Make your mind up.

You can either build infrastructure for immigration, which costs money, lots of money, or you can cut back on spending and not have population growth!.

The morality of immigration is great, I'm a green party member we have a philosophy of open borders, that's a great philosophy to work towards, it's also one that can't exist in today's world!.

Right as for political refugees what your taking about.

We've really got to tackle seriously the reasons behind these mass transits of people, it's not beyond reality to actually solve alot of these problems!.

Isis really wouldn't be that hard a problem to solve for a united UN task force, just like it solved the Kosovo problem!.

Desperately poor people in Africa can be solved, Africa is one of the richest continents in the world, it has huge massive resources that could provide is people with plenty of wealth... If only we could give it stable government and that really shouldn't be that hard a task for the UN either.

The real truth of the matter is none of the wealthy countries wish to help because we reap the benefits of their chaos!!.

Helping some refugees on a boat does fuck all to actually tackle the real problems, all it does is ease your wealthy conscience

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

It's easy to say "let the fuckers drown" when you can't hear their screams

It's easy to say "send em back" when you don't know the extent of what they are going back to

And you are quite welcome to torpedo any boat full of immigrants if you can look the children in the eye as you press the button, and as for those that say about foreign aid "there's people in this country starving" can you be expected at your local food bank to help out in the near future? Because it would be a big help you know

We don't half have a lot to say About immigration when probably half of the people on here are descendants of immigrants, just have a heart will ya

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"

And miss the fact we would not be in a position to help anybody had we not exploited a large part of the world.

British Colonialism is an argument I reject, too many 'what ifs', 'sins of the father' etc.

Ethiopia was one of the oldest kingdoms in the world, and was destroyed by American/Soviet cold-war games in the 70s I believe, after they'd moved on from Vietnam.

But you and Lickety are right, now is not the time to reduce it.

Interesting though that Farrage thinks we can reduce overseas aid AND expect people to stop wanting a better life"

I'm not talking about colonialism. I'm referencing the stuff we took from other countries and the people we took from other countries to build the foundations for the wealth we now have.

I don't think there are any what its about that - a visit to any English port is all the evidence needed.

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By *ouple in LancashireCouple
over a year ago

in Lancashire


"I think it is terribly sad that these people are being exploited by traffickers who have zero regard for life and have taken a kings ransom from them for safe passage....

that level of desperation is unknown to me.

The desperation people must feel to be prepared to send their children out alone on that journey is just incomprehensible. "

this..

to be in such a position where they feel they have no alternative but to take a chance on drowning or existing as they do is beyond 'our' experience..

for that fact alone we should be thankful and yes we should help..

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By *reelove1969Couple
over a year ago

bristol

priceless as ever DDs

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Oh ok it's a private joke kind of topic - well hope it's entertaining enough

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By *erbyDalesCpl OP   Couple
over a year ago

Derbyshire


"

But we can't do that with austerity?.

Make your mind up.

You can either build infrastructure for immigration, which costs money, lots of money, or you can cut back on spending and not have population growth!.

?"

I've always been consistent, we need austerity, and infrastructure investment.

It's possible to have both, as infrastructure investment pays for itself.

If you're canny, you can even get the private sector to fund it....

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

One of the many reasons I volunteer at the Red Cross. They help people worldwide irrespectively. As well as unfortunate people in this country. Still not enough though sadly.

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By *erbyDalesCpl OP   Couple
over a year ago

Derbyshire


"Oh ok it's a private joke kind of topic - well hope it's entertaining enough"

Only a joke if you want it to be.

Personally I find, when I listen to the manifestoes of all the parties, that sometimes we're just fiddling while Africa drowns...

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By *erbyDalesCpl OP   Couple
over a year ago

Derbyshire


"Oh ok it's a private joke kind of topic - well hope it's entertaining enough

Only a joke if you want it to be.

Personally I find, when I listen to the manifestoes of all the parties, that sometimes we're just fiddling while Africa drowns..."

Manifestos, apparently.

Bloody Greeks, having their own language an all...

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"

But we can't do that with austerity?.

Make your mind up.

You can either build infrastructure for immigration, which costs money, lots of money, or you can cut back on spending and not have population growth!.

?

I've always been consistent, we need austerity, and infrastructure investment.

It's possible to have both, as infrastructure investment pays for itself.

If you're canny, you can even get the private sector to fund it....

"
.

Growth has never paid for itself! It's why we perpetually have to chase it because we're always having to pay back yesterday's borrowings!.

I agree with sentiment just the reality always proves otherwise!.

No private company would build you a bridge unless it gets five times back, the growth the bridge gives never pays five times and that's why we chase it constantly!.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"Oh ok it's a private joke kind of topic - well hope it's entertaining enough

Only a joke if you want it to be.

Personally I find, when I listen to the manifestoes of all the parties, that sometimes we're just fiddling while Africa drowns..."
.

But surely the question should be why we encourage the practise of get wealthy or die trying!

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By *erbyDalesCpl OP   Couple
over a year ago

Derbyshire


"

But we can't do that with austerity?.

Make your mind up.

You can either build infrastructure for immigration, which costs money, lots of money, or you can cut back on spending and not have population growth!.

?

I've always been consistent, we need austerity, and infrastructure investment.

It's possible to have both, as infrastructure investment pays for itself.

If you're canny, you can even get the private sector to fund it....

.

Growth has never paid for itself! It's why we perpetually have to chase it because we're always having to pay back yesterday's borrowings!.

I agree with sentiment just the reality always proves otherwise!.

No private company would build you a bridge unless it gets five times back, the growth the bridge gives never pays five times and that's why we chase it constantly!.

"

Steady, I'm a civil engineer. This may be one topic I actually know something about for a change

2nd Severn Crossing? Dartford? PFI? Most housing?

They only make as much profit as you allow them too. Laings even made a loss on the Brentford Bypass...

Still, let's keep this one on topic

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By *erbyDalesCpl OP   Couple
over a year ago

Derbyshire


"Oh ok it's a private joke kind of topic - well hope it's entertaining enough

Only a joke if you want it to be.

Personally I find, when I listen to the manifestoes of all the parties, that sometimes we're just fiddling while Africa drowns...

Manifestos, apparently.

Bloody Greeks, having their own language an all..."

Oh the ignominy!

It's Latin afterall.

And what did those bloody Romans ever do for us?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"

But we can't do that with austerity?.

Make your mind up.

You can either build infrastructure for immigration, which costs money, lots of money, or you can cut back on spending and not have population growth!.

?

I've always been consistent, we need austerity, and infrastructure investment.

It's possible to have both, as infrastructure investment pays for itself.

If you're canny, you can even get the private sector to fund it....

.

Growth has never paid for itself! It's why we perpetually have to chase it because we're always having to pay back yesterday's borrowings!.

I agree with sentiment just the reality always proves otherwise!.

No private company would build you a bridge unless it gets five times back, the growth the bridge gives never pays five times and that's why we chase it constantly!.

Steady, I'm a civil engineer. This may be one topic I actually know something about for a change

2nd Severn Crossing? Dartford? PFI? Most housing?

They only make as much profit as you allow them too. Laings even made a loss on the Brentford Bypass...

Still, let's keep this one on topic "
.

I think immigration and cost should be the topic and not ooo Jonny foreigners living next door!.

You'll always have people of that ilk, asking to solve a problem through who's got the best morality never helped anything!

This country can barely afford to widen the m6 and widening the m6 was designed to relive it off the traffic it already had before immigration?.

England is now at 400 people per square kilometre, that takes it above Holland which itself has seen increases.

Every time we say.... Let's just build more houses more roads more sewers more pylons more generating stations more factories more shops more schools more hospitals more quarries.

All that time were taking from nature more and more land that's used for farming were ploughing into concrete construction!

When is enough to much?

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By *erbyDalesCpl OP   Couple
over a year ago

Derbyshire

If you build a house, you have to build the infrastructure that goes with it. What use a house without a toilet? Or electricity? When the policy was launched, the Greens were committed to building the most houses of all the parties.

The point is this:

once a person is born, they need stuff for a decent life. Regardless of the county they are in/from.

If you argue for better education and contraceptive advice for the poorer nations, then that is something I can understand. Forcing poor people to remain in shitty lives to protect our own standard of living, or thinking it will benefit them if we all adopt sack-cloth, or simply turning a blind eye while people die because we have bought our red nose, surely none of this is the answer?

We can build our fences higher, but the desperation I see will eventually defeat most fences, and what horrors and hatred are being nurtured behind them in the meantime?

The question was, in effect:

Having saved the lives of these people, do we owe them a responsibility or is there there a point at which we are comfortable to watch them die?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"England is now at 400 people per square kilometre, that takes it above Holland which itself has seen increases"

That population density figure is pretty much meaningless as is the way people talk about it as if it represents being swamped by foreigners.

There are about 320 English districts included in it and their population densities range from about 25 per square kilometre for the 50000 people in Eden in Cumbria to 13200 per square kilometre for the 160000 people in Kensington and Chelsea. The 156000 people of Maidstone take up about 400 per square kilometre without feeling too overcrowded.

19 of the top 20 areas by population density are in London with more than 5000 people per square kilometre. Manchester and Birmingham are around 4000 per square kilometre.

The fact is that there are plenty of areas of high population density in the UK without the scaremongering that comes about the place getting overcrowded. In fact some people even seem to like living in them.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

It saddens me that I don't know how to reach out and bring some hope to the people who deserve a better life.

A friend of mine in Malta has spent the last ten years documenting the boats coming into the area as a photographer. It's heart breaking. I sometimes I wish I could be out there with him helping to try and tell the world about these people who have to make such impossible decisions.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"If you build a house, you have to build the infrastructure that goes with it. What use a house without a toilet? Or electricity? When the policy was launched, the Greens were committed to building the most houses of all the parties.

The point is this:

once a person is born, they need stuff for a decent life. Regardless of the county they are in/from.

If you argue for better education and contraceptive advice for the poorer nations, then that is something I can understand. Forcing poor people to remain in shitty lives to protect our own standard of living, or thinking it will benefit them if we all adopt sack-cloth, or simply turning a blind eye while people die because we have bought our red nose, surely none of this is the answer?

We can build our fences higher, but the desperation I see will eventually defeat most fences, and what horrors and hatred are being nurtured behind them in the meantime?

The question was, in effect:

Having saved the lives of these people, do we owe them a responsibility or is there there a point at which we are comfortable to watch them die?

"
.

I think somebody already made the point most people are comfortable with people dying providing they don't have to watch!. That sounds horrific but unfortunately fits with science perfectly.

Some bod worked it out years ago that there's about a dozen people on average in most people's life's (family friends) that actually change their behaviour and they would do nearly anything for, then there's about a hundred others(lesser friends, cousins work colleagues) that influence their behaviour and they would go out of their way to help, that leaves the the other 6.9999999 billion they really don't give a fuck about despite what they might tell you, this unfortunately is human nature!. And is the basis on how capitalism works!

I think you'll find that the green parties idea on housing building and the major parties idea on house building is as different as chalk and cheese.

The main core of any green party idea is sustainability, if it's not sustainable over many generations, then it's not really for us.

So back to the question how do you make Africa sustainable for Africans, if you read anything by Africans there first point is always, thanks for you help, you may mean it in the best way but what your actually doing is maintaining the status quo.

Try reading the book dead aid, it's quite an eye opener

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By *phroditeWoman
over a year ago

(She/ her) in Sensualityland


"I'll not turn my back on anyone who through no fault of their own find themselves existing in a state of wretched desperation..... "

This !

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By *andS66Couple
over a year ago

Derby


"

The thread title 'Immigrants' has nothing to do with the first part of your post.

Perhaps you'd have best titled it 'Pesky Foreigners'.

I was merely trying to link the stories in the news about the people desperately trying to reach out country, many of of whom are exactly escaping from Ethiopia, Eritrea and Sudan, and the current _iew that while eu immigration is bad, that from outside the eu....

One can call them immigrants, one can call them foreigners, one can call them black, one can even call them names which would be considered racist. I was wondering perhaps if our _iews would change if we called them human. Like you and I?"

One should ask the question why are they trying to desperately reach our country, by travelling all the way through the other safe countries of Europe? What is the attraction of the UK compared with the rest of Europe?

But on the other hand, yes, we should welcome them with open arms.... 10,000 per week? 500,000 per year? plus the 300,000 per year net immigration? And then we should still spend nothing on the infrastructure to support them, the same as at present. That's 2 Manchesters every year... with no extra expenditure on roads, rail, public transport, schools, hospitals, doctors, etc,etc.

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By *andS66Couple
over a year ago

Derby


"

The thread title 'Immigrants' has nothing to do with the first part of your post.

Perhaps you'd have best titled it 'Pesky Foreigners'.

I was merely trying to link the stories in the news about the people desperately trying to reach out country, many of of whom are exactly escaping from Ethiopia, Eritrea and Sudan, and the current _iew that while eu immigration is bad, that from outside the eu....

One can call them immigrants, one can call them foreigners, one can call them black, one can even call them names which would be considered racist. I was wondering perhaps if our _iews would change if we called them human. Like you and I?

One should ask the question why are they trying to desperately reach our country, by travelling all the way through the other safe countries of Europe? What is the attraction of the UK compared with the rest of Europe?

But on the other hand, yes, we should welcome them with open arms.... 10,000 per week? 500,000 per year? plus the 300,000 per year net immigration? And then we should still spend nothing on the infrastructure to support them, the same as at present. That's 2 Manchesters every year... with no extra expenditure on roads, rail, public transport, schools, hospitals, doctors, etc,etc.

"

Or housing.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Well there must be a reason they hire foreigners, could it be cos of their hard workings?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"Well there must be a reason they hire foreigners, could it be cos of their hard workings? "
.

It could be?

Or it could be the fact they can undercut indigenous labour by living 20 to a house while driving a car that's neither insured, mot,d or taxed, while living predominantly on non taxed cigarettes and alcohol imported with their migration and then sending the undercut earnings that aren't enough to live on here back to a country where it's not a bad wage?.

Either way it's not really a good thing for either the indigenous labour nor the migrant labour

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"

So back to the question how do you make Africa sustainable for Africans, if you read anything by Africans there first point is always, thanks for you help, you may mean it in the best way but what your actually doing is maintaining the status quo.

Try reading the book dead aid, it's quite an eye opener"

You'll find as many varied opinions about what's best for Africa across the vast continent of Africa as you will in this tiny country.

I agree that foreign aid is often ineffective though. Too often it's granted on a 'we know best' basis, or as a stick to beat with.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

i cant understand why most of the migrants want to come here..? it is a bit of a shithole compared to some other western countrys like Scandinavia or Canada..etc surely they would have a better life in one of them countrys rather than settle here living on a chav infested housing estate in a town with massive unemployement problems.i cant understand why a lot of them want to hit the UK..?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

It's because we make good curries

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"

So back to the question how do you make Africa sustainable for Africans, if you read anything by Africans there first point is always, thanks for you help, you may mean it in the best way but what your actually doing is maintaining the status quo.

Try reading the book dead aid, it's quite an eye opener

You'll find as many varied opinions about what's best for Africa across the vast continent of Africa as you will in this tiny country.

I agree that foreign aid is often ineffective though. Too often it's granted on a 'we know best' basis, or as a stick to beat with.

"
.

Foreign aid always comes with strings.

I don't doubt there's many different _iews but the evidence from what I've read by Africans themselves is the attitude of we know best hasn't worked, it's been awhile since I read her book, but I think she quoted something like a trillion dollars of aid to make the continent worse, and imf bank loans and bailouts are always right behind the aid!.

If you look at Sudan, nearly all the problems there are being caused by oil, indigenous people being pushed off land that allows for that oil to be exploited by a few!. It's not a religious war but a resource was.

The moral ambiguity of sticking your thumb up and saying I'm for saving some poor Africans from a boat in the med is merely a way of easing your own conscience.

We know five year old kids work 16 hour days in Bangladesh for 1 dollar a week to make throw away primark T-shirts, to ease our conscience we have charity... Well whoppee fucking do slap yourselves on the back for being wonderful human beings?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

By the same measure we have no comprehension of the value of a dollar in a country mostly made up of subsistence farmers.

I'm not sure what the Sudanese conflict has to do with foreign aid or immigration?

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By *entaur_UKMan
over a year ago

Cannock


"

So back to the question how do you make Africa sustainable for Africans, if you read anything by Africans there first point is always, thanks for you help, you may mean it in the best way but what your actually doing is maintaining the status quo.

Try reading the book dead aid, it's quite an eye opener

You'll find as many varied opinions about what's best for Africa across the vast continent of Africa as you will in this tiny country.

I agree that foreign aid is often ineffective though. Too often it's granted on a 'we know best' basis, or as a stick to beat with.

.

Foreign aid always comes with strings.

I don't doubt there's many different _iews but the evidence from what I've read by Africans themselves is the attitude of we know best hasn't worked, it's been awhile since I read her book, but I think she quoted something like a trillion dollars of aid to make the continent worse, and imf bank loans and bailouts are always right behind the aid!.

If you look at Sudan, nearly all the problems there are being caused by oil, indigenous people being pushed off land that allows for that oil to be exploited by a few!. It's not a religious war but a resource was.

The moral ambiguity of sticking your thumb up and saying I'm for saving some poor Africans from a boat in the med is merely a way of easing your own conscience.

We know five year old kids work 16 hour days in Bangladesh for 1 dollar a week to make throw away primark T-shirts, to ease our conscience we have charity... Well whoppee fucking do slap yourselves on the back for being wonderful human beings?"

Good post. On the foreign aid matter, is it right that we are actually borrowing the money to then give that same money away in foreign aid? My _iew is no, its not right, we need to get our own economy back in the black first, balance the books, then when we have a surplus of money, ok to give it away in foreign aid. As a country we should not be borrowing money, increasing the national debt, to then give that money away at a time when our economy is in the red.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"By the same measure we have no comprehension of the value of a dollar in a country mostly made up of subsistence farmers.

I'm not sure what the Sudanese conflict has to do with foreign aid or immigration?"
.

It's an a general wider contents of political refuge status of the original question and why we have it?.

The value of a dollar in most poor countries is actually less than in wealthy countries... I know go figure hey .

A loaf of bread will cost a dollar nearly.

A dozen eggs will be over a dollar a kg of apples 2 dollars.

The average wage for a primark type clothing worker is 40 dollars a week!

Poor countries don't have some miraculous escape of economic costs by being poor!

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"i cant understand why most of the migrants want to come here..? it is a bit of a shithole compared to some other western countrys like Scandinavia or Canada..etc surely they would have a better life in one of them countrys rather than settle here living on a chav infested housing estate in a town with massive unemployement problems.i cant understand why a lot of them want to hit the UK..? "

Lots of people around the world can speak English. If you had to flee your home through persecution or poverty, would you want to have to learn a new language as well? Or would you be more concerned with getting help?

Just one reason. Not the only one.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"Well there must be a reason they hire foreigners, could it be cos of their hard workings? .

It could be?

Or it could be the fact they can undercut indigenous labour by living 20 to a house while driving a car that's neither insured, mot,d or taxed, while living predominantly on non taxed cigarettes and alcohol imported with their migration and then sending the undercut earnings that aren't enough to live on here back to a country where it's not a bad wage?.

Either way it's not really a good thing for either the indigenous labour nor the migrant labour"
YEs good point and as well was a program once that said a farmer was looking for british workers to pluck their strawberries but no one wanted to do it, so he had no option to hire foreigners.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I don't know where you're getting your figures from but they're miles off! You believe eggs cost the same across a continent, even in villages where chickens run wild? Bread isn't even available in some places, not because of expense, but because it's not wanted. If you're looking at expat prices that's a very different market to the cost of things for locals.

A very large part of the aid problem is this very issue - we insist that a good society is like ours - we can't comprehend a completely different culture and circumstances.

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By *awk_eyeMan
over a year ago

east london

Some good points here but its noy always about 'giving money away'. Foreign aid is used to buy influence just as much as it is about helping people of that country. Sometimes the influence gained can be worth the additional costs and effects that come with borrowing money.


"

So back to the question how do you make Africa sustainable for Africans, if you read anything by Africans there first point is always, thanks for you help, you may mean it in the best way but what your actually doing is maintaining the status quo.

Try reading the book dead aid, it's quite an eye opener

You'll find as many varied opinions about what's best for Africa across the vast continent of Africa as you will in this tiny country.

I agree that foreign aid is often ineffective though. Too often it's granted on a 'we know best' basis, or as a stick to beat with.

.

Foreign aid always comes with strings.

I don't doubt there's many different _iews but the evidence from what I've read by Africans themselves is the attitude of we know best hasn't worked, it's been awhile since I read her book, but I think she quoted something like a trillion dollars of aid to make the continent worse, and imf bank loans and bailouts are always right behind the aid!.

If you look at Sudan, nearly all the problems there are being caused by oil, indigenous people being pushed off land that allows for that oil to be exploited by a few!. It's not a religious war but a resource was.

The moral ambiguity of sticking your thumb up and saying I'm for saving some poor Africans from a boat in the med is merely a way of easing your own conscience.

We know five year old kids work 16 hour days in Bangladesh for 1 dollar a week to make throw away primark T-shirts, to ease our conscience we have charity... Well whoppee fucking do slap yourselves on the back for being wonderful human beings?

Good post. On the foreign aid matter, is it right that we are actually borrowing the money to then give that same money away in foreign aid? My _iew is no, its not right, we need to get our own economy back in the black first, balance the books, then when we have a surplus of money, ok to give it away in foreign aid. As a country we should not be borrowing money, increasing the national debt, to then give that money away at a time when our economy is in the red. "

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"i cant understand why most of the migrants want to come here..? it is a bit of a shithole compared to some other western countrys like Scandinavia or Canada..etc surely they would have a better life in one of them countrys rather than settle here living on a chav infested housing estate in a town with massive unemployement problems.i cant understand why a lot of them want to hit the UK..?

Lots of people around the world can speak English. If you had to flee your home through persecution or poverty, would you want to have to learn a new language as well? Or would you be more concerned with getting help?

Just one reason. Not the only one."

I don't think that is the reason they come here though..? they speak very good English in north America and Scandinavia too..and also Australia..south Africa and new Zealand..etc

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"i cant understand why most of the migrants want to come here..? it is a bit of a shithole compared to some other western countrys like Scandinavia or Canada..etc surely they would have a better life in one of them countrys rather than settle here living on a chav infested housing estate in a town with massive unemployement problems.i cant understand why a lot of them want to hit the UK..?

Lots of people around the world can speak English. If you had to flee your home through persecution or poverty, would you want to have to learn a new language as well? Or would you be more concerned with getting help?

Just one reason. Not the only one."
.

Actually this myth that it's just the uk is just that.

Finland has seen a massive rise in Somalians, they actually learnt finish (no mean feat on its own).

Canada is actually the second highest immigration from Somalis as well as the uk, Sweden, Holland Denmark. Etc etc....

All open and liberal countries and all facing huge problems from immigration with the exception of Canada which started from the base of large land mass low population!

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"Well there must be a reason they hire foreigners, could it be cos of their hard workings? .

It could be?

Or it could be the fact they can undercut indigenous labour by living 20 to a house while driving a car that's neither insured, mot,d or taxed, while living predominantly on non taxed cigarettes and alcohol imported with their migration and then sending the undercut earnings that aren't enough to live on here back to a country where it's not a bad wage?.

Either way it's not really a good thing for either the indigenous labour nor the migrant labourYEs good point and as well was a program once that said a farmer was looking for british workers to pluck their strawberries but no one wanted to do it, so he had no option to hire foreigners."
.

No one wanted to do it!!! For what he wanted to pay? There's a difference

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"Well there must be a reason they hire foreigners, could it be cos of their hard workings? .

It could be?

Or it could be the fact they can undercut indigenous labour by living 20 to a house while driving a car that's neither insured, mot,d or taxed, while living predominantly on non taxed cigarettes and alcohol imported with their migration and then sending the undercut earnings that aren't enough to live on here back to a country where it's not a bad wage?.

Either way it's not really a good thing for either the indigenous labour nor the migrant labourYEs good point and as well was a program once that said a farmer was looking for british workers to pluck their strawberries but no one wanted to do it, so he had no option to hire foreigners."

that is the same old mantra a lot of the farmers say when asked why do they hire immigrants only..its bollocks..they use to hire students and new age travelers during the strawberry picking season..but now they opt for eastern Europeans because they will do the work cash in hand for a lot less than minimum wage

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"I don't know where you're getting your figures from but they're miles off! You believe eggs cost the same across a continent, even in villages where chickens run wild? Bread isn't even available in some places, not because of expense, but because it's not wanted. If you're looking at expat prices that's a very different market to the cost of things for locals.

A very large part of the aid problem is this very issue - we insist that a good society is like ours - we can't comprehend a completely different culture and circumstances.

"
.

I was quoting the average cost in Bangladesh for which we were speaking.

The cost of wild eggs cost exactly the same in America to Namibia.

The input is exactly the same as the output.

The reason a dozen eggs or bread costs less in first world counties is exactly because we input less to get more out!

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By *erbyDalesCpl OP   Couple
over a year ago

Derbyshire


"

Actually this myth that it's just the uk is just that.

"

The last figures I saw showed Germany and Russia at the top.

I think the boat ride to Canada puts off all but the most hardy.

And, if I'm honest (and it may not be trendy to admit it) I think we have a bloody good country, and bloody good lives.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"

Actually this myth that it's just the uk is just that.

The last figures I saw showed Germany and Russia at the top.

I think the boat ride to Canada puts off all but the most hardy.

And, if I'm honest (and it may not be trendy to admit it) I think we have a bloody good country, and bloody good lives."

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Somali_diaspora

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Over seas aid ? Is that the money that buys the Mercedes and gated complexes in Africa ?

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By *erbyDalesCpl OP   Couple
over a year ago

Derbyshire


"

No one wanted to do it!!! For what he wanted to pay? There's a difference"

No, 'for what we are prepared to pay at the shops'.

We can't blame the farmers for wanting to make a living too, nor the supermarkets for wanting to give the customers what they demand.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"I don't know where you're getting your figures from but they're miles off! You believe eggs cost the same across a continent, even in villages where chickens run wild? Bread isn't even available in some places, not because of expense, but because it's not wanted. If you're looking at expat prices that's a very different market to the cost of things for locals.

A very large part of the aid problem is this very issue - we insist that a good society is like ours - we can't comprehend a completely different culture and circumstances.

.

I was quoting the average cost in Bangladesh for which we were speaking.

The cost of wild eggs cost exactly the same in America to Namibia.

The input is exactly the same as the output.

The reason a dozen eggs or bread costs less in first world counties is exactly because we input less to get more out!"

You're comparing apples to oranges.

A dollar goes a very long way. The weekly salary you quoted is more than the monthly wage for many. That salary which sounds shocking to us would be considered very comfortable by many.

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By *erbyDalesCpl OP   Couple
over a year ago

Derbyshire


"

Actually this myth that it's just the uk is just that.

The last figures I saw showed Germany and Russia at the top.

I think the boat ride to Canada puts off all but the most hardy.

And, if I'm honest (and it may not be trendy to admit it) I think we have a bloody good country, and bloody good lives.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Somali_diaspora"

Sorry, I was talking about more general immigration, my bad

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"

Actually this myth that it's just the uk is just that.

The last figures I saw showed Germany and Russia at the top.

I think the boat ride to Canada puts off all but the most hardy.

And, if I'm honest (and it may not be trendy to admit it) I think we have a bloody good country, and bloody good lives."

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Let everyone who wants to come and live in Europe wouldn't that be great ?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"Over seas aid ? Is that the money that buys the Mercedes and gated complexes in Africa ?"

More often missionaries and NGO's

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"

No one wanted to do it!!! For what he wanted to pay? There's a difference

No, 'for what we are prepared to pay at the shops'.

We can't blame the farmers for wanting to make a living too, nor the supermarkets for wanting to give the customers what they demand."
.

How much are you prepared to pay for anything.

They make profits on paintings by van Gogh to Ferraris to truffles to savile row suits?.

Let's apply this cheaper from abroad costs to everything if that's the case!.

I can get judges from Albania from under 20k

Mps from Russia for under 15k

Civil servants running councils on 200k nonsense, I can get them from India for under 20k

Soldiers... What why waste shit loads training our own, I can get the best mercenaries from Africa for under 50 quid a week and we only pay when we need them!.

Dentists are ten a penny in Pakistan and doctors too.

Oh I get the picture... It's free market economics for the lower end of society!!.

Long live das capital

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"I don't know where you're getting your figures from but they're miles off! You believe eggs cost the same across a continent, even in villages where chickens run wild? Bread isn't even available in some places, not because of expense, but because it's not wanted. If you're looking at expat prices that's a very different market to the cost of things for locals.

A very large part of the aid problem is this very issue - we insist that a good society is like ours - we can't comprehend a completely different culture and circumstances.

.

I was quoting the average cost in Bangladesh for which we were speaking.

The cost of wild eggs cost exactly the same in America to Namibia.

The input is exactly the same as the output.

The reason a dozen eggs or bread costs less in first world counties is exactly because we input less to get more out!

You're comparing apples to oranges.

A dollar goes a very long way. The weekly salary you quoted is more than the monthly wage for many. That salary which sounds shocking to us would be considered very comfortable by many.

"
.

My mistake... I should have actually put that is a monthly salary not weekly!.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"Over seas aid ? Is that the money that buys the Mercedes and gated complexes in Africa ?"

That would be the money in bribes from arms dealers

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"My mistake... I should have actually put that is a monthly salary not weekly!."

That makes more sense, was thinking that sounds quite plush compared to jobs like teachers etc.

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By *er himWoman
over a year ago

Essex


"So, in the 80s we fed them at Mr Geldof's request.

We gave them wells, (even though this just lowered the water-table further) because Mr Henry told us to.

We helped reduce disease at Pudsy's beckoning.

Finally Mr Walliams and Mr Barlow encouraged us to send mosquito nets.

Many people are alive because of us.

But wait, now they want to better their lives still further. They're dying again, this time on boats. Should we quietly employ torpedo ships in the med? Should we get Oxfam to slip something in the well-water? Should we keep our fingers crossed that they die fighting one another in northern Africa - perhaps we could send guns? Maybe we could leave the problem to other, richer countries, you know, like Greece and Italy and Spain?

Obviously we desparately need people to work in the Nhs etc, but what if they also want their children to go to a school, you know, with OUR children? Or if (omg) they wanted to live in a HOUSE!?

What are we to do?

(Off to ask Zane whatisface, he'll know...)

Mr ddc

Good thread and some difficult questions for all of us.

Seemingly 10,000 a week and more are escaping persecution, war and generally just a shit life in the hope of a better life in Europe. Many of these are Libyan, iraqi and Syrian people who are of the wrong religion or background.

If you think it bad now, it will be ten times worse if/when Assad gets toppled in Syria. We had an issue with despotic tyrants like assad, gaddafi and saddam Hussain but they largely kept the Middle East under control.

The rise of fanatical religious armies that have spread across Africa is to some degree the result of the elimination of people who for years and years kept that sort of thing in check.

Dealing with these refugees could be the biggest challenge facing Europe ever. I think that this is just the beginning of this exodus which has the potential to reach biblical proportions and cause untold trouble throughout Europe in the coming years.

"

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By *er himWoman
over a year ago

Essex


"in the eighties i was on a ship that docked in pakistan,i was helping with stores and noticed charity names on boxes, i was told it wasnt the first time ship chandlers selling goods sent over by oxfam etc, if we could get rid of corruption maybe these countries could improve"

These people a desperate because of corrupt leaders and living a life of aid. Just consider what the UK would be like if there was endless benefits not to work and a culture of no thought to family planning.

To really help poor countries governments need to start at the top. Force corrupt leaders to look after there own people, there is enormous wealth in these countries but held by a few at the top. (Strangely a bit like where the UK is heading). And encourage change in culture where work and planning is the norm.

To comment you need to live and work in these countries in the real parts not just for holidays to see the truth.

You may not agree but have seen reality

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

This is the best thread on the forums for many a day.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Even if you've worked in them I don't think you can really comprehend the reality. I can't and I've tried to many times, it's just too far removed from our sensibilities.

Corruption and exploitation obviously need sorting, but I don't believe they're the lone solution - after all we do pretty well here and there's no shortage of corruption.

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By *anchestercubMan
over a year ago

manchester & NI

Foreign aid needs to be split between 2 categories I think.

It's lumped into 1 because the public appetite wouldn't take 2.

We give aid to countries like Pakistan and India not because they are most needy but because aid money is used as a bribe to get them to do what we want them to do - i.e. keep the taliban at bay and keep Pakistan on our side of the 'war on terror'.

We give aid to African countries and others in order to try and increase their economies and living standards.

There is a lot of money in parts of Africa in terms of natural resources, however these resources are not shared in a democratic sense. Yet US & European oil companies doing business with countries like Nigeria means that corrupt political structures go unchallenged and our governments turn a blind eye.

I don't blame anyone for trying to have a more stable life, I'd probably do the same if I were them.

I don't see an end to this because large parts of the Arab/African world are becoming very unstable.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"in the eighties i was on a ship that docked in pakistan,i was helping with stores and noticed charity names on boxes, i was told it wasnt the first time ship chandlers selling goods sent over by oxfam etc, if we could get rid of corruption maybe these countries could improve"

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

It's not that I doubt the good intentions and believe me there are some good intentions.

For all the shit I've given Tony Blair, he actually did the decent thing in sierra Leone, there's some really good foreign policy that gets lost in the utter mass of bad policy, Kosovo being point in case for the Americans too!.

The trouble with morality and sticking a thumb up with "this" is it belies the problems of how far people will go personally?.

Just looking at bananas alone, there's a story of utter cruelty in many a south american country that's well published and could be solved by the public by simply stopping buying the big bully companies and changing your purchase to a small farmed variety! But it seems to me the general public can't even be arsed to put bananas in a basket that cost 30p more to do good, so I can't in all honest rely on anybody saving some fuckers out at sea!

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By *anchestercubMan
over a year ago

manchester & NI


"But it seems to me the general public can't even be arsed to put bananas in a basket that cost 30p more to do good, so I can't in all honest rely on anybody saving some fuckers out at sea!"

When you're so far removed from something you can easily choose not to see it.

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By *andS66Couple
over a year ago

Derby


"i cant understand why most of the migrants want to come here..? it is a bit of a shithole compared to some other western countrys like Scandinavia or Canada..etc surely they would have a better life in one of them countrys rather than settle here living on a chav infested housing estate in a town with massive unemployement problems.i cant understand why a lot of them want to hit the UK..?

Lots of people around the world can speak English. If you had to flee your home through persecution or poverty, would you want to have to learn a new language as well? Or would you be more concerned with getting help?

Just one reason. Not the only one."

If I had to flee my country I wouldn't care what language I had to learn, as long as I was safe.

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By *erbyDalesCpl OP   Couple
over a year ago

Derbyshire

Here's a few intetesting figures:

Why do they all come to Britain? - Actually DEVELOPING countries host over 86% of the world’s refugees, compared to 70% ten years ago.

Ok, but we're the highest in Europe, right? - No. With an estimated 109,600 asylum applications, Germany was the largest recipient of new asylum claims in 2013. The United States of America was second with 84,400 asylum applications, followed by South Africa (70,000), France (60,200), and Sweden (54,300). By comparison, the UK received 23,507 new applications for asylum by the end of 2013.

Why do we give money to 'rich' countries like Pakistan? - in 2013, the country hosting the largest number of refugees remained Pakistan, with 1.6 million refugees.

Aren't they old enough to look after themselves? - Last year, 50% of refugees were under 18 years old. This was higher than in 2012 when it stood at 46%. 

Figures from UNHCR

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"i cant understand why most of the migrants want to come here..? it is a bit of a shithole compared to some other western countrys like Scandinavia or Canada..etc surely they would have a better life in one of them countrys rather than settle here living on a chav infested housing estate in a town with massive unemployement problems.i cant understand why a lot of them want to hit the UK..?

Lots of people around the world can speak English. If you had to flee your home through persecution or poverty, would you want to have to learn a new language as well? Or would you be more concerned with getting help?

Just one reason. Not the only one..

Actually this myth that it's just the uk is just that.

Finland has seen a massive rise in Somalians, they actually learnt finish (no mean feat on its own).

Canada is actually the second highest immigration from Somalis as well as the uk, Sweden, Holland Denmark. Etc etc....

All open and liberal countries and all facing huge problems from immigration with the exception of Canada which started from the base of large land mass low population!"
The wars/civil wars in africa have got something to answer for for this its Certainly one way to get their population levels down in their Country either by killing them or getting them to mass exodus what a god Forsaken place to live, even the masai Haveing their lands taken and their Wildlife threatened by corrupt Government to nigerian business sending promise,s of wealth, to Robert Mugabe photographed recently wearing Earings on the Internet.

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By *entaur_UKMan
over a year ago

Cannock


"Here's a few intetesting figures:

Why do they all come to Britain? - Actually DEVELOPING countries host over 86% of the world’s refugees, compared to 70% ten years ago.

Ok, but we're the highest in Europe, right? - No. With an estimated 109,600 asylum applications, Germany was the largest recipient of new asylum claims in 2013. The United States of America was second with 84,400 asylum applications, followed by South Africa (70,000), France (60,200), and Sweden (54,300). By comparison, the UK received 23,507 new applications for asylum by the end of 2013.

Why do we give money to 'rich' countries like Pakistan? - in 2013, the country hosting the largest number of refugees remained Pakistan, with 1.6 million refugees.

Aren't they old enough to look after themselves? - Last year, 50% of refugees were under 18 years old. This was higher than in 2012 when it stood at 46%. 

Figures from UNHCR"

Yes but don't those countries you listed have a bigger land mass than the Uk so they are able to take more than us. We are a relatively small island by comparison.

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By *erbyDalesCpl OP   Couple
over a year ago

Derbyshire


"

Yes but don't those countries you listed have a bigger land mass than the Uk so they are able to take more than us. We are a relatively small island by comparison. "

Not sure landmass is always relevant. Can one man in a large country help more than one man in a small country? Is 200 acres of snowy mountaintop in Pakistan better than 2 hectares in England? If the best way to help is aid, boots on the ground or supplies, is GDP not more important than size?

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By *rof SalamanderMan
over a year ago

glasgow

They are being fucked over by their own and trafficked like modern slaves. Need to stop them leave port in first instance. Surely these countries are happily turning a blind eye for a few $$'s from these traffickers.very sad

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By *icketysplitsWoman
over a year ago

Way over Yonder, that's where I'm bound


"Here's a few intetesting figures:

Why do they all come to Britain? - Actually DEVELOPING countries host over 86% of the world’s refugees, compared to 70% ten years ago.

Ok, but we're the highest in Europe, right? - No. With an estimated 109,600 asylum applications, Germany was the largest recipient of new asylum claims in 2013. The United States of America was second with 84,400 asylum applications, followed by South Africa (70,000), France (60,200), and Sweden (54,300). By comparison, the UK received 23,507 new applications for asylum by the end of 2013.

Why do we give money to 'rich' countries like Pakistan? - in 2013, the country hosting the largest number of refugees remained Pakistan, with 1.6 million refugees.

Aren't they old enough to look after themselves? - Last year, 50% of refugees were under 18 years old. This was higher than in 2012 when it stood at 46%. 

Figures from UNHCR

Yes but don't those countries you listed have a bigger land mass than the Uk so they are able to take more than us. We are a relatively small island by comparison. "

Jordan is tiny and has taken millions of refugees in just the last two years.

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By *inaTitzTV/TS
over a year ago

Titz Towers, North Notts


"Here's a few intetesting figures:

Why do they all come to Britain? - Actually DEVELOPING countries host over 86% of the world’s refugees, compared to 70% ten years ago.

Ok, but we're the highest in Europe, right? - No. With an estimated 109,600 asylum applications, Germany was the largest recipient of new asylum claims in 2013. The United States of America was second with 84,400 asylum applications, followed by South Africa (70,000), France (60,200), and Sweden (54,300). By comparison, the UK received 23,507 new applications for asylum by the end of 2013.

Why do we give money to 'rich' countries like Pakistan? - in 2013, the country hosting the largest number of refugees remained Pakistan, with 1.6 million refugees.

Aren't they old enough to look after themselves? - Last year, 50% of refugees were under 18 years old. This was higher than in 2012 when it stood at 46%. 

Figures from UNHCR

Yes but don't those countries you listed have a bigger land mass than the Uk so they are able to take more than us. We are a relatively small island by comparison.

Jordan is tiny and has taken millions of refugees in just the last two years.

"

Ditto the Lebanon. They're even smaller.

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By *anchestercubMan
over a year ago

manchester & NI

If we want to help developing countries sustain their own people and grow their economies, one of the easiest things we could do is stop farm subsidies in developed countries.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"If we want to help developing countries sustain their own people and grow their economies, one of the easiest things we could do is stop farm subsidies in developed countries. "

Absolutely correct - but bugger all chance of happening

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Jordan and Lebanon are not great examples of human kindness!.

There's 200,000 Syrian refugees in a camp in Jordan, literally a tented city the fifth biggest city in Jordan, they riot there constantly and the Jordanians have shut the border down completely so overwhelmed by the numbers!.

Of course this is a route we could take and camp them up at Glastonbury maybe, although I doubt it would work any different than in Jordan?.

Stop prescribing cures for the symptoms and get to the underlying illness!

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By *anchestercubMan
over a year ago

manchester & NI


"If we want to help developing countries sustain their own people and grow their economies, one of the easiest things we could do is stop farm subsidies in developed countries.

Absolutely correct - but bugger all chance of happening"

I know it's a shame, but would make such a huge difference.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"If we want to help developing countries sustain their own people and grow their economies, one of the easiest things we could do is stop farm subsidies in developed countries. "
.

Botswana produces more beef for the EU market than the uk does!.

What we need is higher import tariffs so that beef reared in Botswana goes to Africans and not MacDonald's in London!.

Half of Africa is starving for food not fucking cash

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I'll tell you what you could do for Africa, write off all the fucking debts that keep them in constantly slavery to the friggin west.

That's what pushes the bloody problems in the first place!

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

And while we're at it, that would probably work with Greece too!

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"If we want to help developing countries sustain their own people and grow their economies, one of the easiest things we could do is stop farm subsidies in developed countries. .

Botswana produces more beef for the EU market than the uk does!.

What we need is higher import tariffs so that beef reared in Botswana goes to Africans and not MacDonald's in London!.

Half of Africa is starving for food not fucking cash"

Macdonalds in London uses beef from Botswana?!

Half of Africa is starving?!

come on!

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By *anchestercubMan
over a year ago

manchester & NI


"If we want to help developing countries sustain their own people and grow their economies, one of the easiest things we could do is stop farm subsidies in developed countries. .

Botswana produces more beef for the EU market than the uk does!.

What we need is higher import tariffs so that beef reared in Botswana goes to Africans and not MacDonald's in London!.

Half of Africa is starving for food not fucking cash"

Well firstly, I doubt McDonalds uses real beef!

Secondly, if we want Africa to be sustainable they need to export, and not just rely on their domestic demand.

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By *erbyDalesCpl OP   Couple
over a year ago

Derbyshire

I'm pretty sure more trade, not less, is the answer to helping them become self-sufficient. And high import tariffs and EU farm subsidies are acknowledged as the biggest barrier to this.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"I'll tell you what you could do for Africa, write off all the fucking debts that keep them in constantly slavery to the friggin west.

That's what pushes the bloody problems in the first place!

"
Even If you did write off the Debts It would be only so long before

Those debts would be back again and Most Of that If not all down to corrupt Government they have, while they have their finger on the button Nothing will change and sadly I doubt It will If ever, destroying the country they were "presumably" put in Charge to look after in reality apart From their selves they could,nt look After anything..

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"Yes but don't those countries you listed have a bigger land mass than the Uk so they are able to take more than us. We are a relatively small island by comparison. "

I would personally be ok with having less garden if it means that more people had a chance at a life where they weren't persecuted for being women/homosexual/religious/etc.

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