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Them Non-Doms...

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By *erbyDalesCpl OP   Couple
over a year ago

Derbyshire

So, I was thinking:

The average ND pays over £90k in tax each year. That's probably more than I'll pay in my whole life! I'm thinking: just one person has effectively paid for our children's education and total lifetime nhs bill, singlehandedly, in one year.

Next year he or she will pay for yours.

So am I wrong to want to buy this person a drink, shake them by the hand and say 'thank you'?

Rather than "fuck off out of our country, you evil bastard" which seems to be the current thinking?

What's your view - thank or vilify?

Mr ddc

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By *alandNitaCouple
over a year ago

Scunthorpe

I think the concept is that many are paying only fraction of what they mathematically should be paying..... millions of pounds a year less.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"So, I was thinking:

The average ND pays over £90k in tax each year. That's probably more than I'll pay in my whole life! I'm thinking: just one person has effectively paid for our children's education and total lifetime nhs bill, singlehandedly, in one year.

Next year he or she will pay for yours.

So am I wrong to want to buy this person a drink, shake them by the hand and say 'thank you'?

Rather than "fuck off out of our country, you evil bastard" which seems to be the current thinking?

What's your view - thank or vilify?

Mr ddc"
.

If they were earning 400k a year id thank them.

If there earning 20 mill a year, I'd boot them in the bollocks

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Also I'd like to point out...

I don't earn particular big money

but the other half earns pretty well so between us we make a little over 100k and our tax last year was 30k.

So 90 sounds great but I'd still rather they pay by % just like we do

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

My take on it is, they pay what they're legally obliged to pay, it's the rule makers fault that they don't pay what they should. We can be as pissed off about it as we like but until rules change, it will continue.

To put a different slant on it, if you had ways that you could legally use to pay less, would you?

I don't condone what they do but they're not breaking laws by doing so.

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By *erbyDalesCpl OP   Couple
over a year ago

Derbyshire


"I think the concept is that many are paying only fraction of what they mathematically should be paying..... millions of pounds a year less."

On the one hand, both you and SB are right, but on the other, I can't help thinking as individuals they are paying very generously into the common pot, far more than they draw out. Surely that contribution can be recognised? Regardless of whether or not we think they could pay more.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"I think the concept is that many are paying only fraction of what they mathematically should be paying..... millions of pounds a year less.

On the one hand, both you and SB are right, but on the other, I can't help thinking as individuals they are paying very generously into the common pot, far more than they draw out. Surely that contribution can be recognised? Regardless of whether or not we think they could pay more."
.

Id be very happy for a one rate 35/45% tax rate for all! Everyone pays the same % of income as tax.

But that would require scrapping all the tax loopholes we currently have

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By *erbyDalesCpl OP   Couple
over a year ago

Derbyshire


"I think the concept is that many are paying only fraction of what they mathematically should be paying..... millions of pounds a year less.

On the one hand, both you and SB are right, but on the other, I can't help thinking as individuals they are paying very generously into the common pot, far more than they draw out. Surely that contribution can be recognised? Regardless of whether or not we think they could pay more..

Id be very happy for a one rate 35/45% tax rate for all! Everyone pays the same % of income as tax.

But that would require scrapping all the tax loopholes we currently have"

Certainly agree with scrapping loopholes, even combining Income Tax and NI, but I also like the idea of everyone on minimum wage being lifted out of tax altogether.

I was just amazed how much tax these people pay, and still get vilified for it.

They pay the same total in tax as half the workforce put together!

That's going some!

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By *nnyMan
over a year ago

Glasgow

If you get to be a non Dom cos your father was born overseas, does that make Prince Charles a non Dom?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

They're not paying it out of the goodness of their heart, are they.

As a percentage of their earnings some are paying a lot less than you or me.

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By *icketysplitsWoman
over a year ago

Way over Yonder, that's where I'm bound

What about us Londoners, eh? £34bn tax surplus to benefit the rest of the country. Even though our wages appear to be generally stagnant.

My view on the non-dom issue is that it's now a moral anomaly. The whole system of tax loopholes needs to be addressed and this is a start.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"I think the concept is that many are paying only fraction of what they mathematically should be paying..... millions of pounds a year less.

On the one hand, both you and SB are right, but on the other, I can't help thinking as individuals they are paying very generously into the common pot, far more than they draw out. Surely that contribution can be recognised? Regardless of whether or not we think they could pay more..

Id be very happy for a one rate 35/45% tax rate for all! Everyone pays the same % of income as tax.

But that would require scrapping all the tax loopholes we currently have

Certainly agree with scrapping loopholes, even combining Income Tax and NI, but I also like the idea of everyone on minimum wage being lifted out of tax altogether.

I was just amazed how much tax these people pay, and still get vilified for it.

They pay the same total in tax as half the workforce put together!

That's going some!"

I haven't researched this enough, but I'm fairly sure the current reporting is lumping what seem like some legitimate tax arrangements which result in fair outcomes, in with egregious examples of piss-taking manipulation of tax loopholes. Some of the vilification going on is obscene.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

There's a big recruitment issue in the civil service in specialist professional roles of the kind of people who can help address things like tax loopholes. If you had those skills, would you go and work for HMRC or would you go and get paid three times as much working for one of the Big 4 and escape the public scrutiny and condemnation that tends to come the way of the bureaucratic back office government worker?

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By *ophieslutTV/TS
over a year ago

Central

I've paid more in tax than a nom dom but paid 100% of what was due. Non doms are living here generally, it is their home but often have this status passed to them from a parent who had it. Its archaic and not reflective of their position, which makes it unfair. Those of us who have been higher rate tax payers don't want special accolades for paying more tax. I was privileged to be earning very well and felt it my duty.

We will benefit from eradication of anomalies in the tax system and ensuring that everyone pays their dues.

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By *erbyDalesCpl OP   Couple
over a year ago

Derbyshire

True Anna, the problem is always the accountants pay better than the Hmrc, though if the government ever followed up on their promise/suggestion to make it illegal to help someone avoid tax...

And yes Sofie, they choose to live here, and therefore pay what is legally due.

But whether or not the system should change: as it stands today, they are doing nothing wrong, and consequently benefit our society.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"There's a big recruitment issue in the civil service in specialist professional roles of the kind of people who can help address things like tax loopholes. If you had those skills, would you go and work for HMRC or would you go and get paid three times as much working for one of the Big 4 and escape the public scrutiny and condemnation that tends to come the way of the bureaucratic back office government worker? "
.

The big 4 deliberately recruit from hmrc because they know all the best loopholes!.

It's really simple to slip exemptions of where your allowed to work after leaving hmrc , it's done by all the big accountants themselves, the trouble being nobody in hmrc wants that rule because their aim is to get a cushy job with deloites!

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"There's a big recruitment issue in the civil service in specialist professional roles of the kind of people who can help address things like tax loopholes. If you had those skills, would you go and work for HMRC or would you go and get paid three times as much working for one of the Big 4 and escape the public scrutiny and condemnation that tends to come the way of the bureaucratic back office government worker? .

The big 4 deliberately recruit from hmrc because they know all the best loopholes!.

It's really simple to slip exemptions of where your allowed to work after leaving hmrc , it's done by all the big accountants themselves, the trouble being nobody in hmrc wants that rule because their aim is to get a cushy job with deloites!

"

It's not the aim for everyone. But if your salary was frozen for 4 years, you had to fight for your job every year with many, many of your colleagues made redundant, your workload increased massively and you can't get further training because the budget has gone - you'd be an easy target to be poached.

Even the idealistic people who start out actually wanting to work in the public sector for reasons of public service get worn down by that.

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By *dwalu2Couple
over a year ago

Bristol


"I can't help thinking as individuals they are paying very generously into the common pot, far more than they draw out. "

They may not be drawing out as an individual, but they almost certainly are draining the common pot through their actions.

How many employees of the rich are having to have their wages supplemented by benefits because they don't earn enough to live on, while their rich employers diddle the tax man with non-dom status?

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By *oo hotCouple
over a year ago

North West


"I've paid more in tax than a nom dom but paid 100% of what was due. Non doms are living here generally, it is their home but often have this status passed to them from a parent who had it. Its archaic and not reflective of their position, which makes it unfair. Those of us who have been higher rate tax payers don't want special accolades for paying more tax. I was privileged to be earning very well and felt it my duty.

We will benefit from eradication of anomalies in the tax system and ensuring that everyone pays their dues. "
b

You have bought the spin. The vast majority of non doms are non doms because of real domiciliation claims not the archaic system that you allege.

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By *anchestercubMan
over a year ago

manchester & NI

Why would they pay £90k if it represents a higher amount than if they otherwise paid tax like most people in the UK?

Logically you'd pay the lesser of the 2 amounts.

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By *oo hotCouple
over a year ago

North West

Let's get something straight. Non doms pay UK tax on their UK earnings. In the vast majority of cases these are very wealthy people who put their own money directly or indirectly into the British economy. There are no UK tax breaks and no UK tax dodging for them. They pay their way. The only difference between a non dom and a regular tax payer is that we all are required to declare our worldwide income whereas a non dom pays a fixed fee to the Treasury instead.

There will be unintended consequences to this action because the people who red Ed are targeting are the very, very wealthy and as a consequence they are mobile and can operate their businesses from anywhere in the world. Many choose to live in London because it is probably the coolest place in the world to live if you have money. The difference will be that if they loose their non dom status, most will simply relocate to Monaco, UAE or similar and spend less than 185 days a year (or whatever the current requirement is) here in the UK thereby depriving the Treasury of their previous tax receipts AND the non dom fee.

It is a great rallying cry to the masses to hit the rich and complain about their wealth and how they should pay more. The reality is that the very wealthy already pay the greatest proportion of all of the UK taxes and by proportion a small loss of HNWI tax receipts makes a disproportionately

large hole in Treasury receipts.

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By *uke olovingmanMan
over a year ago

Gravesend

Have durex brought out a thinner sheath

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By *erbyDalesCpl OP   Couple
over a year ago

Derbyshire


"Let's get something straight. Non doms pay UK tax on their UK earnings. In the vast majority of cases these are very wealthy people who put their own money directly or indirectly into the British economy. There are no UK tax breaks and no UK tax dodging for them. They pay their way. The only difference between a non dom and a regular tax payer is that we all are required to declare our worldwide income whereas a non dom pays a fixed fee to the Treasury instead.

There will be unintended consequences to this action because the people who red Ed are targeting are the very, very wealthy and as a consequence they are mobile and can operate their businesses from anywhere in the world. Many choose to live in London because it is probably the coolest place in the world to live if you have money. The difference will be that if they loose their non dom status, most will simply relocate to Monaco, UAE or similar and spend less than 185 days a year (or whatever the current requirement is) here in the UK thereby depriving the Treasury of their previous tax receipts AND the non dom fee.

It is a great rallying cry to the masses to hit the rich and complain about their wealth and how they should pay more. The reality is that the very wealthy already pay the greatest proportion of all of the UK taxes and by proportion a small loss of HNWI tax receipts makes a disproportionately

large hole in Treasury receipts."

That's pretty much how I see it.

Goose, Golden eggs, etc

Now I'm thinking of the Goodies...

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By *oo hotCouple
over a year ago

North West


"Let's get something straight. Non doms pay UK tax on their UK earnings. In the vast majority of cases these are very wealthy people who put their own money directly or indirectly into the British economy. There are no UK tax breaks and no UK tax dodging for them. They pay their way. The only difference between a non dom and a regular tax payer is that we all are required to declare our worldwide income whereas a non dom pays a fixed fee to the Treasury instead.

There will be unintended consequences to this action because the people who red Ed are targeting are the very, very wealthy and as a consequence they are mobile and can operate their businesses from anywhere in the world. Many choose to live in London because it is probably the coolest place in the world to live if you have money. The difference will be that if they loose their non dom status, most will simply relocate to Monaco, UAE or similar and spend less than 185 days a year (or whatever the current requirement is) here in the UK thereby depriving the Treasury of their previous tax receipts AND the non dom fee.

It is a great rallying cry to the masses to hit the rich and complain about their wealth and how they should pay more. The reality is that the very wealthy already pay the greatest proportion of all of the UK taxes and by proportion a small loss of HNWI tax receipts makes a disproportionately

large hole in Treasury receipts.

That's pretty much how I see it.

Goose, Golden eggs, etc

Now I'm thinking of the Goodies...

"

To preach the politics of envy is to be oblivious of the laws of unintended consequences.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I think some people are missing the point.

The whole point of being a non dom is to hide your wealth.

Either from us or from your country of birth.

Its no point shouting they pay tax on uk tax earned money like their doing is a favour.... Wow their paying tax on earnings like everyone else whooppee fucking do.

It's designed to hide wealth and that's why in twenty years the amount of people claiming it has gone through the roof.

I really couldn't give two hoots about money as long as the law applies equally and in this case they bought there law with 90 grand fees!

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By *oo hotCouple
over a year ago

North West


".......

The whole point of being a non dom is to hide your wealth.

Either from us or from your country of birth.

"

That is just not the case. Their country of birth is as irrelevant as the colour of their hair.

The VAST majority of non doms fall into one of two camps:

1) Subcontracted Specialist employees - high tech engineers, Consultants, Doctors etc - Not exactly loaded! These people will likely come from Japan, Australia, Germany, US or other first world country and will very much be on their home country tax radar.

2) The very loaded. Normally able to be domiciled in the Middle East, Monaco, Cayman or other tax haven. Bring wealth into the UK and pay UK tax because they have elected to be here. They can just as easily move away and probably will. The tax receipts from just one of these people equate to hundreds, if not thousands of us ordinary folk.

Abramovitch is a non dom but he pays his taxes in Russia as well as the UK. I will be intrigued as to what will happen in his case as HMRC will probably need a new department just to investigate his Russian income.

The number of "players" who take advantage of historical precedents represent a tiny fraction of true non doms and the answer is to root them out instead of fucking the Treasury receipts for the sake of a handful of abusers.

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By *erbyDalesCpl OP   Couple
over a year ago

Derbyshire


".......

The whole point of being a non dom is to hide your wealth.

Either from us or from your country of birth.

That is just not the case.

They can just as easily move away and probably will. "

That's how I understand it too. It's not so much about giving them a free pass, but encouraging them to move here, where they will also invest in our economy and create jobs. In addition, they are putting money into the economy every time they go shopping, go to restaurants, chomp on their caviar ciabatta and quaff their non-Dom Perignon and whatever else the fabulously wealthy do.

The people who hide their wealth, including those who set up foreign accounts in the name of their dog, are a completely different breed.

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By *erbyDalesCpl OP   Couple
over a year ago

Derbyshire

OMG

You have no idea how hard it is to find a particular thread with the word 'dom' in it. Who'd've thought there'd be so many of them...

Anyway, looks like the rules are going to be further tightened next week, so it looks like Ed Milliband achieved something at least.

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By *nnyMan
over a year ago

Glasgow

D'ye really think Gideon will put the squeeze on his pals?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I got offered a job recently working for a family office. The senior family member was born here, lives here a lot of the time, has a business solely based here which was recently sold, earning him £0.5bn on which he will pay zero tax due to his non dom status through his father's birth place. I turned down the job as morally I couldn't look myself in the mirror.

There are lots of arguments for and against, and I guess everyone has their own moral code.

As the OP says, many non doms will pay far more in tax in one year than many do in a lifetime, in addition they often employ staff here, pay lots of VAT on goods bought and generally contribute positively to the country both socially and economically. It is the serious abuses of the system which would be best looked at rather than changes to the legislation which tries to cover everything but which will fail.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"OMG

You have no idea how hard it is to find a particular thread with the word 'dom' in it. Who'd've thought there'd be so many of them...

Anyway, looks like the rules are going to be further tightened next week, so it looks like Ed Milliband achieved something at least."

I'm surprised nobody made a comment earlier.

One would assume that a non-dom is the opposite of a dom

Wondering how many others also made the link - most probably those that pick up on other words that crop up occasionally in normal life - like if someone mentions the word 'fab', 'facial', 'social', 'group' etc

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By *erbyDalesCpl OP   Couple
over a year ago

Derbyshire


"D'ye really think Gideon will put the squeeze on his pals?"

It's one of those curious things where they would probably accept bigger tax rises from him, for fear of the alternative.

And regular, small increases will yield more than one massive club on the head.

Like that idea of boiling a frog in water by raising the temperature slowly (if that's still a thing)

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By *eMontresMan
over a year ago

Halesowen

90k might sound a lot and on PAYE you'd need to earn around 300k pa. But non doms and the super rich typically pay less than 2% of their earnings in tax.

They basically negotiate with HMRC, the premise being, you can have this much, or I'll pack up shop and you can have 100% of nothing. HMRC usually cave in.

So no, I don't feel in any way obligated or grateful to them - I see them as freeloaders, taking the benefits this country offers without making any proportionate contribution.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

It is not the politics of envy, it is the issue of equality. If you have a benefit of a country you should pay the rate that most pay. Yes they may be paying the rate according to law, but this is an anomaly that should be corrected. Yes it can be said that the amount of tax paid is large but % wise it is less than other hard workers. It is all the pennies and pounds of the lower paid that collectively pays the tax in this country. Ever since Thatcherism and the shift from corporations paying the bulk of the tax to individuals paying it. If we are having to bring skills from abroad I would have thought then they could expense their costs off rather than have tax waived.

If a person has built up a business in this country in a true entrepreneurial fashion and is a small to medium sized business that is a person who deserves a decent tax break.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

In that case thinking back to when I was unemployed, I would like to thank the op for the £30 worth of shopping I got from Aldi every week, you're awesome

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