FabSwingers.com forum: Feminist. equalist or sexist

By *uke olovingman OP Man
over a year ago

Gravesend

Following the discussion on woman's hour.. which are you.. I think I might be an equalist. With a drop of feminism

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By *lshere77Man
over a year ago

Wigan

All depends if they can use the TV remote

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By *eembabyWoman
over a year ago

Brum

Equalest

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Equalizer.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Equalizer."

Wasn't that Edward Woodward ?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Labalist.

After all have to keep up with the current fashionable "ist" to be wouldn't want to get shown up by my super cool hipster friends.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Femdom here, so i am a female supremacist.

Although when it comes to rights i'm an equalist, or humanitarian.

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By *ootleCouple
over a year ago

Romford, Essex

If a feminist was male then they would be called a chauvinist - both as bad as each other in my opinion

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I'm more a live in harmony person. One balancing out the other. I complete you,you complete me.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I'm more a live in harmony person. One balancing out the other. I complete you,you complete me."

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By *igeiaWoman
over a year ago

Bristol

I'm just an everyday egalitarian.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"If a feminist was male then they would be called a chauvinist - both as bad as each other in my opinion "

A female chauvinist would be called a female chauvinist.

A feminist promotes women gaining the same rights that men have.

Which are rights like the right to civil rights, the right for men to take paternity leave, the right for women not be a husbands property, equal pay, the right to autonomy, and have a say in reforms that affect women.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Following the discussion on woman's hour.. which are you.. I think I might be an equalist. With a drop of feminism"

How did they define the differences?

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By *yrdwomanWoman
over a year ago

Putting the 'cum' in Eboracum

"Following the discussion on woman's hour.. which are you.. I think I might be an equalist. With a drop of feminism

How did they define the differences?"

Yeah, I'd be interested to hear that.

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By *radleyandRavenCouple
over a year ago

Herts

I don't know. I'm all for feminism/equalism, but I won't be watching the new GhostBusters film.

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By *B9 QueenWoman
over a year ago

Over the rainbow, under the bridge

Been feminist since a teenager. Can't imagine viewing the world in any other way.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Following the discussion on woman's hour.. which are you.. I think I might be an equalist. With a drop of feminism

How did they define the differences?

Yeah, I'd be interested to hear that."

Technically I'm both egalitarian and feminist.

Egalitarianism - the desire for all humans to be treated equally.

Feminism - the recognition that women are currently not treated equally.

We can't reach a state of egalitarianism without feminism (or a whole host of other groups that campaign for equal rights). We can't attain equality without recognising that there are currently inequalities.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

So what's the difference between egalitarian and feminist?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Fuck!

I'm not sure what 'ism' i is but i sure do love women as much as i hate them!

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Seriously, who here amongst us really believes they're an equalist?

100% equality? Life is but a joke.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Seriously, who here amongst us really believes they're an equalist?

100% equality? Life is but a joke.

What's wrong with the belief that we should all be treated equally and given the same opportunities?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Following the discussion on woman's hour.. which are you.. I think I might be an equalist. With a drop of feminism

How did they define the differences?

Yeah, I'd be interested to hear that.

Technically I'm both egalitarian and feminist.

Egalitarianism - the desire for all humans to be treated equally.

Feminism - the recognition that women are currently not treated equally.

So basically feminism is the recognition that women aren't treated equally? How is that a movement or an activism? Its a recognition. Its like me saying I'm a hippoist, I recognise that hippos are creatures

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Seriously, who here amongst us really believes they're an equalist?

100% equality? Life is but a joke.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Following the discussion on woman's hour.. which are you.. I think I might be an equalist. With a drop of feminism

How did they define the differences?

Yeah, I'd be interested to hear that.

Technically I'm both egalitarian and feminist.

Egalitarianism - the desire for all humans to be treated equally.

Feminism - the recognition that women are currently not treated equally.

It's a movement that specifically recognises that women aren't treated equally *and works towards changing that*.

Sorry, I felt that was implied.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Seriously, who here amongst us really believes they're an equalist?

100% equality? Life is but a joke.

What's wrong with the belief that we should all be treated equally and given the same opportunities?"

Because i don't believe for a second that you or any other woman wants equality.

If so, please tell me why there are men's and women's tournaments for say Tennis or Golf?

Should a top county tennis player , male, be allowed to enter the Women's Wimbledon Championships?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Seriously, who here amongst us really believes they're an equalist?

100% equality? Life is but a joke.

What's wrong with the belief that we should all be treated equally and given the same opportunities?

Because i don't believe for a second that you or any other woman wants equality.

If so, please tell me why there are men's and women's tournaments for say Tennis or Golf?

Should a top county tennis player , male, be allowed to enter the Women's Wimbledon Championships?

Urgh.

Not even going to have this discussion about segregation in sports and where you should divide to make participation more fun for everyone involved.

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By *yrdwomanWoman
over a year ago

Putting the 'cum' in Eboracum

"If so, please tell me why there are men's and women's tournaments for say Tennis or Golf?"

Because the men who are in the top spots in the ruling committees of these sports say that women can't compete with men, so women have to have their own tournaments.

Although there are mixed doubles in a lot of sports.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Following the discussion on woman's hour.. which are you.. I think I might be an equalist. With a drop of feminism

How did they define the differences?

Yeah, I'd be interested to hear that.

Technically I'm both egalitarian and feminist.

Egalitarianism - the desire for all humans to be treated equally.

Feminism - the recognition that women are currently not treated equally.

It's a movement that specifically recognises that women aren't treated equally *and works towards changing that*.

Sorry, I felt that was implied."

Again so how does that differ from egalitarian?

Lots of things can be implied in discussions, especially on a subject as sensitive as gender equality

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Seriously, who here amongst us really believes they're an equalist?

100% equality? Life is but a joke.

What's wrong with the belief that we should all be treated equally and given the same opportunities?

Because i don't believe for a second that you or any other woman wants equality.

If so, please tell me why there are men's and women's tournaments for say Tennis or Golf?

Should a top county tennis player , male, be allowed to enter the Women's Wimbledon Championships?

Urgh.

Not even going to have this discussion about segregation in sports and where you should divide to make participation more fun for everyone involved."

So you don't believe in equality after all?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Again so how does that differ from egalitarian?

Lots of things can be implied in discussions, especially on a subject as sensitive as gender equality"

Egalitarianism is generally not considered an activist movement, but rather just a belief.

You don't often find people who identify soley as egalitarianists actively participating in political campaigning.

Feminism, black rights movements, labour movements, gay rights movements, etc etc, they are all examples of campaigning for specific problems in order to reach a more equal state.

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By *icolerobbieCouple
over a year ago

walsall

Seriously, who here amongst us really believes they're an equalist?

100% equality? Life is but a joke.

What's wrong with the belief that we should all be treated equally and given the same opportunities?

Because i don't believe for a second that you or any other woman wants equality.

If so, please tell me why there are men's and women's tournaments for say Tennis or Golf?

Should a top county tennis player , male, be allowed to enter the Women's Wimbledon Championships?

Urgh.

Not even going to have this discussion about segregation in sports and where you should divide to make participation more fun for everyone involved."

Why not? Sounds like a perfectly reasonable question.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

So you don't believe in equality after all? "

I believe that women and disabled people should have the same opportunity to participate in high level sports as men do.

Since putting everyone into the same competition together would mean that women and disabled people generally *did not* have the same equal opportunities to participate as men, I don't believe that is constructive.

So yes, I'm into equality. Because I think that people should have an equal opportunity to have fun and participate in sports.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Any equalist believe there should be a "Rooney Rule" ( as in the NFL not shagging grandparents) in soccer or any other way of life?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I do believe in equal rights and that men and women doing the same job should have the same rights, opportunities and pay as each other. However to call for blanket equality is nigh on impossible, men and women are not the same, we never will be the same on many levels. Yes we should embrace those differences in a positive manner but the differences are there

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By *icolerobbieCouple
over a year ago

walsall

So you don't believe in equality after all?

I believe that women and disabled people should have the same opportunity to participate in high level sports as men do.

So yes, I'm into equality. Because I think that people should have an equal opportunity to have fun and participate in sports."

So by your own definition, equality is not possible? People of less ability cannot compete with people of a higher ability. Everyone can participate and enjoy sports, but not at the same level.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I do believe in equal rights and that men and women doing the same job should have the same rights, opportunities and pay as each other."

But what about where pay is individually negotiated either on recruitment or every few years.

It's been shown these are the roles where the gender pay gap is biggest. The reason being men will ask for more money while women will play it safe and say they'd be happy with less in order to try and secure the job.

If you have two positions available and two good candidates one says they'll work for 30k a year and you're ok with that you hire them, if the other when asked says they'll do it for 28k you're not gonna pay them the extra money for no reason are you?

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By *icolerobbieCouple
over a year ago

walsall

"I do believe in equal rights and that men and women doing the same job should have the same rights, opportunities and pay as each other.

But what about where pay is individually negotiated either on recruitment or every few years.

So you are suggesting that women undercut men rather than are paid less?

Are salaries being driven down by female workers? Or are they being exploited by companies that are playing them at their own game. Same job should be same pay, male or female.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I do believe in equal rights and that men and women doing the same job should have the same rights, opportunities and pay as each other.

But what about where pay is individually negotiated either on recruitment or every few years.

So you are suggesting that women undercut men rather than are paid less?

Are salaries being driven down by female workers? Or are they being exploited by companies that are playing them at their own game. Same job should be same pay, male or female."

Yes, but...

When you see any job advertised it says salary £x to £y dependant upon experience. It also depends upon your negotiation skills. You're not being paid according to your gender its your skills. If two managers of equal experience and standing are paid differently then its an issue but basing the difference on gender alone makes it very hard to read

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By *icolerobbieCouple
over a year ago

walsall

"I do believe in equal rights and that men and women doing the same job should have the same rights, opportunities and pay as each other.

But what about where pay is individually negotiated either on recruitment or every few years.

So you are suggesting that women undercut men rather than are paid less?

Are salaries being driven down by female workers? Or are they being exploited by companies that are playing them at their own game. Same job should be same pay, male or female.

Yes, but...

I would have to agree

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I'm for all equals.

With my experience in the City I don't think salaries are based on your Gender. I work for one of the biggest names in the world. You are worth for your qualifications, Skills. Experience. I was recently interviewing candidates for a role in my dept. As the Hiring Manager I was given a salary range for the role and set of candidates with their requirements. (Basic+Benefits and + Bonus etc etc.). It was a close match between to candidates. Went for the Candidate strongly believed whom the best match for us even she was 5k more expensive compared to the other guy.

Me personally I don't like when women "Playing the Woman Card" Every one is equal.

i was brought by two strong women. My mother and mu=y Sister. And I work with the most powerful influential women .

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Seriously, who here amongst us really believes they're an equalist?

100% equality? Life is but a joke.

What's wrong with the belief that we should all be treated equally and given the same opportunities?

Because i don't believe for a second that you or any other woman wants equality.

If so, please tell me why there are men's and women's tournaments for say Tennis or Golf?

Should a top county tennis player , male, be allowed to enter the Women's Wimbledon Championships?

You know what? Yes he should, if he feels that he is a female.

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By *icketysplitsWoman
over a year ago

Way over Yonder, that's where I'm bound

I heard the piece on Woman's Hour. Interesting...

I'm still a feminist.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I'll add that women have the right not to be treated as sex objects just because they play a sport. Think there was a bit of a fuss last year because someone remarked on a female tennis players appearance.

Women politicians have the right to be asked serious political questions and not to be asked how they manage to run things when they have kids.

Working women have the right to work and not be treated like they should be stuck at home with their kids or judged as abandoning their kids.

These are just a few things i can think of where society hasn't quite caught up with the fact that women are capable of other things other than being sex objects or mummies.

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By *gNeMan
over a year ago

Harrogate

Again so how does that differ from egalitarian?

Lots of things can be implied in discussions, especially on a subject as sensitive as gender equality

Egalitarianism is generally not considered an activist movement, but rather just a belief.

You don't often find people who identify soley as egalitarianists actively participating in political campaigning.

Feminism, black rights movements, labour movements, gay rights movements, etc etc, they are all examples of campaigning for specific problems in order to reach a more equal state."

Feminism isn't an activist movement it's an ideology.. There have been two major movements based around it however.

Can you please identify a current 'specific problem' faced uniquely by western women, and explain what political activism, proponents of feminism, are doing on a daily basis in order to rectify the issue..?

We should all push for equality, I'm not sure how feminism unites us though. It just seems to cause arguments..

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By *icketysplitsWoman
over a year ago

Way over Yonder, that's where I'm bound

"Following the discussion on woman's hour.. which are you.. I think I might be an equalist. With a drop of feminism

How did they define the differences?

Yeah, I'd be interested to hear that."

It wasn't entirely clear, in the end. The Equalist, broadly, didn't see gender as a defining factor. However, every example could be deconstructed as being about gender.

The feminist was clear on the issues of gender (just being female) was the defining factor in that inequality (e.g. VAT on sanitary products).

The discussion with the presenter of Man's Hour was then on to raise his suggestion again that we need a Minister for Men in government.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I do believe in equal rights and that men and women doing the same job should have the same rights, opportunities and pay as each other.

But what about where pay is individually negotiated either on recruitment or every few years.

So you are suggesting that women undercut men rather than are paid less?

Are salaries being driven down by female workers? Or are they being exploited by companies that are playing them at their own game. Same job should be same pay, male or female."

No I'm saying they play safe and don't try for a higher wage.

But the same job in this situation pays different for every employee. Ie two men will be different because they negotiated and agreed different pay.

why should one person be paid more because someone else negotiated better than them?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Feminist, still think we live in a very patriarchal society

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Following the discussion on woman's hour.. which are you.. I think I might be an equalist. With a drop of feminism

How did they define the differences?

Yeah, I'd be interested to hear that.

It wasn't entirely clear, in the end. The Equalist, broadly, didn't see gender as a defining factor. However, every example could be deconstructed as being about gender.

The feminist was clear on the issues of gender (just being female) was the defining factor in that inequality (e.g. VAT on sanitary products).

The discussion with the presenter of Man's Hour was then on to raise his suggestion again that we need a Minister for Men in government.

Surely, if i popped along to my local pharmacist and purchased some sanitary products, wouldn't i also be paying VAT?

That sounds like equality.

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By *icketysplitsWoman
over a year ago

Way over Yonder, that's where I'm bound

"Following the discussion on woman's hour.. which are you.. I think I might be an equalist. With a drop of feminism

How did they define the differences?

Yeah, I'd be interested to hear that.

It wasn't entirely clear, in the end. The Equalist, broadly, didn't see gender as a defining factor. However, every example could be deconstructed as being about gender.

The feminist was clear on the issues of gender (just being female) was the defining factor in that inequality (e.g. VAT on sanitary products).

The discussion with the presenter of Man's Hour was then on to raise his suggestion again that we need a Minister for Men in government.

Surely, if i popped along to my local pharmacist and purchased some sanitary products, wouldn't i also be paying VAT?

That sounds like equality.

Do you NEED them? That's the difference.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Following the discussion on woman's hour.. which are you.. I think I might be an equalist. With a drop of feminism

How did they define the differences?

Yeah, I'd be interested to hear that.

It wasn't entirely clear, in the end. The Equalist, broadly, didn't see gender as a defining factor. However, every example could be deconstructed as being about gender.

The feminist was clear on the issues of gender (just being female) was the defining factor in that inequality (e.g. VAT on sanitary products).

The discussion with the presenter of Man's Hour was then on to raise his suggestion again that we need a Minister for Men in government.

Surely, if i popped along to my local pharmacist and purchased some sanitary products, wouldn't i also be paying VAT?

That sounds like equality.

I'm sick of paying taxes full stop.

Incontinence products don't have tax on them, don't see why sanitary towels and tampax are considered a luxury item to be taxed? Ffs government, don't try and tax our nappies either now i've pointed this out.

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By *gNeMan
over a year ago

Harrogate

"Following the discussion on woman's hour.. which are you.. I think I might be an equalist. With a drop of feminism

How did they define the differences?

Yeah, I'd be interested to hear that.

It wasn't entirely clear, in the end. The Equalist, broadly, didn't see gender as a defining factor. However, every example could be deconstructed as being about gender.

The feminist was clear on the issues of gender (just being female) was the defining factor in that inequality (e.g. VAT on sanitary products).

The discussion with the presenter of Man's Hour was then on to raise his suggestion again that we need a Minister for Men in government.

Surely, if i popped along to my local pharmacist and purchased some sanitary products, wouldn't i also be paying VAT?

That sounds like equality.

I'm sick of paying taxes full stop.

I think sanitary products SHOULD be free for under 18's and those on low incomes.

The framing of taxation of the items in question, as a feminist/gender issue is extremely misleading however. It is a problem with many schools (although not all) of 'modern feminism'.

The comparison with nappies is invalid, they have never been taxed. Tampons are taxed currently, and the government are loathe to give up any revenue stream. The reason alcohol and tobacco are still legal is the money which they bring in through taxes. It is an issue of economics not gender.

P.s would you want that 5% tax break if it means less NHS funding, or cuts to education?

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By *L RogueMan
over a year ago

London

[Removed by poster at 26/03/15 00:13:11]

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By *L RogueMan
over a year ago

London

Any equalist believe there should be a "Rooney Rule" ( as in the NFL not shagging grandparents) in soccer or any other way of life?

Yep! Couldn't hurt.

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By *ueenandworkerbeeCouple
over a year ago

Manchester

Both feminists here!

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I'm not sure what I am.

But I think women get a very raw deal sometimes. I also believe in other areas, men get screwed over.

And less able people need easier access to more support.

I don't know what I am. Naive or overly hopeful probably, because I just think everyone should be nicer to each other.

Then maybe none of this would be an issue.

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By *gNeMan
over a year ago

Harrogate

"I'm not sure what I am.

But I think women get a very raw deal sometimes. I also believe in other areas, men get screwed over.

And less able people need easier access to more support.

I don't know what I am. Naive or overly hopeful probably, because I just think everyone should be nicer to each other.

Then maybe none of this would be an issue."

Spot on!! That's my main problem with these agenda fuelled ideologies. People get carried away with constant fighting about who is right or wrong. Instead of us all working together for a better world.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I'm not sure what I am.

But I think women get a very raw deal sometimes. I also believe in other areas, men get screwed over.

And less able people need easier access to more support.

I don't know what I am. Naive or overly hopeful probably, because I just think everyone should be nicer to each other.

Then maybe none of this would be an issue.

Group hug?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Following the discussion on woman's hour.. which are you.. I think I might be an equalist. With a drop of feminism

How did they define the differences?

Yeah, I'd be interested to hear that.

It wasn't entirely clear, in the end. The Equalist, broadly, didn't see gender as a defining factor. However, every example could be deconstructed as being about gender.

The feminist was clear on the issues of gender (just being female) was the defining factor in that inequality (e.g. VAT on sanitary products).

The discussion with the presenter of Man's Hour was then on to raise his suggestion again that we need a Minister for Men in government.

Surely, if i popped along to my local pharmacist and purchased some sanitary products, wouldn't i also be paying VAT?

That sounds like equality.

I'm sick of paying taxes full stop.

I think sanitary products SHOULD be free for under 18's and those on low incomes.

The framing of taxation of the items in question, as a feminist/gender issue is extremely misleading however. It is a problem with many schools (although not all) of 'modern feminism'.

P.s would you want that 5% tax break if it means less NHS funding, or cuts to education? "

Tax system is flawed anyway, and there's no way to rectify it because once you tax certain people more they just pass those taxes onto us who have to buy items or services from them by upping their prices.

Taxes on sanitary products won't fund the NHS, but if they removed taxes from them and took it from MPs salaries i doubt anyone would have a problem with that.

It's completely the same as nappies, both are sanitary products and people can use terry nappies if they want to, nappies aren't an essential when there are other alternatives. The only difference is that people with long term disabilities get tax breaks, therefore nappies are not taxed, neither are any products that are used for long term disabilities. And under 16s aren't charged tax, unless they have to buy adult sized clothes or waste their pocket money on taxed luxury items like chocolate and things like this.

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By *gNeMan
over a year ago

Harrogate

"Following the discussion on woman's hour.. which are you.. I think I might be an equalist. With a drop of feminism

How did they define the differences?

Yeah, I'd be interested to hear that.

It wasn't entirely clear, in the end. The Equalist, broadly, didn't see gender as a defining factor. However, every example could be deconstructed as being about gender.

The feminist was clear on the issues of gender (just being female) was the defining factor in that inequality (e.g. VAT on sanitary products).

The discussion with the presenter of Man's Hour was then on to raise his suggestion again that we need a Minister for Men in government.

Surely, if i popped along to my local pharmacist and purchased some sanitary products, wouldn't i also be paying VAT?

That sounds like equality.

I'm sick of paying taxes full stop.

I think sanitary products SHOULD be free for under 18's and those on low incomes.

The framing of taxation of the items in question, as a feminist/gender issue is extremely misleading however. It is a problem with many schools (although not all) of 'modern feminism'.

P.s would you want that 5% tax break if it means less NHS funding, or cuts to education?

Taxes on sanitary products won't fund the NHS, but if they removed taxes from them and took it from MPs salaries i doubt anyone would have a problem with that.

You've miss understood most of what I have said..

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I'm not sure what I am.

But I think women get a very raw deal sometimes. I also believe in other areas, men get screwed over.

And less able people need easier access to more support.

I don't know what I am. Naive or overly hopeful probably, because I just think everyone should be nicer to each other.

Then maybe none of this would be an issue."

That's the first time I've ever heard a woman admit that men get screwed over and in many ways we do, its just ignored because in a patriarchal society the feminists see it as 'pay back'

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Following the discussion on woman's hour.. which are you.. I think I might be an equalist. With a drop of feminism

How did they define the differences?

Yeah, I'd be interested to hear that.

It wasn't entirely clear, in the end. The Equalist, broadly, didn't see gender as a defining factor. However, every example could be deconstructed as being about gender.

The feminist was clear on the issues of gender (just being female) was the defining factor in that inequality (e.g. VAT on sanitary products).

The discussion with the presenter of Man's Hour was then on to raise his suggestion again that we need a Minister for Men in government.

Surely, if i popped along to my local pharmacist and purchased some sanitary products, wouldn't i also be paying VAT?

That sounds like equality.

I'm sick of paying taxes full stop.

I think sanitary products SHOULD be free for under 18's and those on low incomes.

The framing of taxation of the items in question, as a feminist/gender issue is extremely misleading however. It is a problem with many schools (although not all) of 'modern feminism'.

P.s would you want that 5% tax break if it means less NHS funding, or cuts to education?

Taxes on sanitary products won't fund the NHS, but if they removed taxes from them and took it from MPs salaries i doubt anyone would have a problem with that.

You've miss understood most of what I have said.."

Explain again then, because i replied to what you said. I don't believe you are right that sanitary products and nappies can't be compared, women can get infections from not changing sanitary products often enough. Bringing NHS funding didn't apply to the argument as tax revenue comes from NI to pay for that and not product taxes.

Taxing something only women use is sexist. Only women have periods, only women use sanitary towels. Periods and sanitary products are not luxuries to be taxed. We supposed to use rags like our ancestors? I have done in the past btw, they aren't that efficient for heavy days. I know people who have nicked toilet roll out of public toilets though to use as sanitary products when they couldn't afford them.

Even toilet roll you can consider a luxury item because you don't have to buy it to keep clean, you could just wash the area afterwards, but with periods you have to have something there to soak up the blood.

They are the same thing as nappies, nappies are used by babies, of which no children are taxed. Nappies are used by incontinent adults, who are disabled therefore are exempt under disability tax exemptions. Sanitary products for periods are used by women, and are taxed.

I'm probably gonna go to sleep in a minute anyway, it's late.

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By *gNeMan
over a year ago

Harrogate

"Following the discussion on woman's hour.. which are you.. I think I might be an equalist. With a drop of feminism

How did they define the differences?

Yeah, I'd be interested to hear that.

It wasn't entirely clear, in the end. The Equalist, broadly, didn't see gender as a defining factor. However, every example could be deconstructed as being about gender.

The feminist was clear on the issues of gender (just being female) was the defining factor in that inequality (e.g. VAT on sanitary products).

The discussion with the presenter of Man's Hour was then on to raise his suggestion again that we need a Minister for Men in government.

Surely, if i popped along to my local pharmacist and purchased some sanitary products, wouldn't i also be paying VAT?

That sounds like equality.

I'm sick of paying taxes full stop.

I think sanitary products SHOULD be free for under 18's and those on low incomes.

The framing of taxation of the items in question, as a feminist/gender issue is extremely misleading however. It is a problem with many schools (although not all) of 'modern feminism'.

P.s would you want that 5% tax break if it means less NHS funding, or cuts to education?

Taxes on sanitary products won't fund the NHS, but if they removed taxes from them and took it from MPs salaries i doubt anyone would have a problem with that.

You've miss understood most of what I have said..

I'm probably gonna go to sleep in a minute anyway, it's late."

Well I agree with the majority of what you are saying. The crux of my argument is that it's not about sexism it is about greed..

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Ok, i'll be brave. Or foolish.

Hands up, how many "Equalist" women think that in all matters relating to divorce, men should get equality?

Don't rush.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Ok, i'll be brave. Or foolish.

Hands up, how many "Equalist" women think that in all matters relating to divorce, men should get equality?

Don't rush. "

Split up with 2 exes, one male hasn't really bothered with his kids, hasn't financially supported them at all, hasn't given up anything while i gave up my life to look after them, yeah they're my kids but no way has it been a 50/50 equal bringing of them up on his part. Patriarchy allowed him to walk away and be a selfish knob so he did that, men don't have to bring up their kids and there's no pressure on them to do so. Feminism meant i didn't have to put up with him in my life if i didn't want to and could split up with him coz he's a knobhead, otherwise i'd still be maried to that prick to this day. I never married him either, thankyou feminism for me not being forced to.

My other ex has 50/50 custody with me of his kids, he also has paid nothing towards bringing them up (to me anyway) i have paid for things for his home because my kids live there part time and was happy to do so coz that is my kids too and i was finiancially better off. But yes i am happy that he is also bringing them up despite us not being together. Don't even mind that the 50/50 is flexible at times. We didn't need the law to be involved because we are responsible adults who love our kids and could sort it out ourselves.

Financially it works out that whoever has the most money at the time doesn't leave their kids in poverty and helps the other parent out and their kids, for the responsible adults anyway, not responsible adults will be forced to do this under law.

Financially the wife/husband will be compensated for any time that she/he had to do things that didn't allow her/him to own her/his own income, such as bringing up children. They can also be compensated for supporting a working partner. Financially the whoever is earning will pay for that and to home her/his children if the law thinks she/he is able to. When his kids become adult age she/he is not obligated to pay for his ex because they are deemed able to look after themselves, they are also entitled to half the money for the house and can force the ex to sell the home to obtain that money.

They already get equality under law, there are ways round it that mostly benefit the earner so that they don't have to provide for their own fucking children, sad.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Well I agree with the majority of what you are saying. The crux of my argument is that it's not about sexism it is about greed.. "

Yeah, ok it is greed but I do still think it is a feminist issue and unfair. Men can buy sanitary products but then this means women are reliant on men, if they aren't relaint on men then they are going to be buying their own products, which is what feminism is going for non-reliance on anyone else.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Labels, labels, labels, zzzzz zzzzzzzz zzz zzzzz I'm a humanitarian ....ism ish!

Make love, not war 'n' stuff.

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By *gNeMan
over a year ago

Harrogate

Ok, i'll be brave. Or foolish.

Hands up, how many "Equalist" women think that in all matters relating to divorce, men should get equality?

Don't rush.

They already get equality under law, there are ways round it that mostly benefit the earner so that they don't have to provide for their own fucking children, sad."

Again most of what you are saying is right, but nothing to do with patriarchy's or feminism.. You had kids with a useless tosser first time round by the sounds of it.

Some women use their children as weapons in divorce, others simply have them as a way of generating money. Men tend not to do either of the above. Men often father children and then fail to support them.

All of the above is irresponsible and harmful behaviour. Has nothing to do with gender equality though

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Again most of what you are saying is right, but nothing to do with patriarchy's or feminism.. You had kids with a useless tosser first time round by the sounds of it.

All of the above is irresponsible and harmful behaviour. Has nothing to do with gender equality though

But the useless tosser was allowed to walk away and leave me to give up all my life, including go hungry at times, because society sees fit that women should bring up kids and men don't have to do anything. If i'd waked out on my kids in the exact same way he did i could have been prosecuted for abandonment, i'm serious about this. I didn't want to walk out anyway but you get what i'm saying, it wasn't a law that forced me to care for them.

I even got a letter of child support last week saying that our oldest won't be getting any more payments now he's 18...he's never had a single payment but the law pretends he had because his dad probably should have been paying but they didn't make him. Pissed me off that letter did, just rubbing it in that i got nothing and had to do it all by myself.

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By *gNeMan
over a year ago

Harrogate

"Well I agree with the majority of what you are saying. The crux of my argument is that it's not about sexism it is about greed..

I have to pay tax on sanitation items such as soap, which I deem essential. Women need additional sanitation items and so pay additional tax. While it may be unfair only Mother Nature is to blame..

However as I said, I think girls under 18 and people on low incomes should be able to get free sanitary products. Like with condoms.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I guess we've all had our grievances with thee opposite sex but it doesn't make the opposite sex 'all the same', - as certain magazines would lead us to believe!!

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Well I agree with the majority of what you are saying. The crux of my argument is that it's not about sexism it is about greed..

I have to pay tax on sanitation items such as soap, which I deem essential. Women need additional sanitation items and so pay additional tax. While it may be unfair only Mother Nature is to blame..

However as I said, I think girls under 18 and people on low incomes should be able to get free sanitary products. Like with condoms.

But so do women. Those products aren't exclusive to women or men, both genders will buy them. But yes soap isn't a luxury, unless not get diseases is a luxury too?

Fuck yeah we had to fight for free contraception for single women and men, married women were allowed it from the outset. Don't know why but the ethical council doesn't seem to automatically apply when it comes to a lot of things, even though it exists.

I like this discussion, it just highlights how little the government really think of us. Luxury soap- if we can't afford soap tax then we should be dirty and smelly, luxury period products, not getting pregnant is a luxury...

Then look at the shit they claim for expenses and i wonder why they think they don't have to pat tax on that stuff?

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By *gNeMan
over a year ago

Harrogate

"Again most of what you are saying is right, but nothing to do with patriarchy's or feminism.. You had kids with a useless tosser first time round by the sounds of it.

All of the above is irresponsible and harmful behaviour. Has nothing to do with gender equality though

You've just sort of explained it yourself though, you had a maternal instinct to care for your children. He clearly did not have the equivalent. That is why society does and will always see women as the main child raisers. That's not to say women can not have careers as well or enjoy any of the things men can.

I disagree that society thinks men can just walk away. I'd warrant the majority of people would see him as an irresponsible wanker.

There are good and bad men and women. You got a bad one there, but you've not convinced me it has anything to do with patriarchy..

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By *gNeMan
over a year ago

Harrogate

But so do women. Those products aren't exclusive to women or men, both genders will buy them. But yes soap isn't a luxury, unless not get diseases is a luxury too?

Then look at the shit they claim for expenses and i wonder why they think they don't have to pat tax on that stuff?"

Which is exactly my point men and women are taxed for all sorts of essential items such as soap, the fact that men do not happen to require shall we say invasive sanitation, does not suddenly make it a sexism issue.

Big business empowered by a corrupt government is the problem.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Of course there's some women who attract assholes - & others whom openly seek them, - what's that about (I'm looking for a bad boy)??????

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By *gNeMan
over a year ago

Harrogate

"Of course there's some women who attract assholes - & others whom openly seek them, - what's that about (I'm looking for a bad boy)??????

Yup I know soo many girls my age who've gone looking for bad boys, then complain and blame everyone else when things go tits up.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"You've just sort of explained it yourself though, you had a maternal instinct to care for your children. He clearly did not have the equivalent. That is why society does and will always see women as the main child raisers. That's not to say women can not have careers as well or enjoy any of the things men can.

I disagree that society thinks men can just walk away. I'd warrant the majority of people would see him as an irresponsible wanker.

There are good and bad men and women. You got a bad one there, but you've not convinced me it has anything to do with patriarchy..

I've never had a maternal instinct, although i have good sense and pretty intelligent so it was fairly easy for me to bring up my kids. My high moral standards made it hard at times because i did go hungry rather than steal food, regret doing that and having morals coz now i'm more fuck the system if it doesn't work for me. I had a sense of responsibility, possibly more enforced because i am female and my mum was the same, she brought us up while my dad worked or stayed in the pub because women were told to be homemakers when she had kids, it really wasn't encouraged to be anything other than a housewife after the 1950s- you were encouraged to leave work and bring up your kids and rely on a husband to look after you.

I think, despite major civil issues before this era, this is when patriarchy really took off because hardly anyone had rights when the industrial revolution came about and segregation of the poor happened etc but it happened to everyone, so everyone tried to get their rights back. And they got them, welfare was brought in...this is why when the Tories go on about victorian values it really bothers me. Things like unwed mums being treated like outcasts, workhouses for the poor were brought out, you had no rights, yeah the victorian values sure were awesome.

Nowadays things are changing, legally they move faster than society does. It was only almost 2 decades ago that i gave up my life, nowadays there would be more support for me if i wanted to work. Ten years ago my other kids were babies and free toddler groups meant i could get out the house with my kids and it cost me nothing. Little things like this really help but women often have to ask for this stuff or create it themselves, society doesn't just give it to them and expects women to put up with stuff like poverty, it's not on.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Of course there's some women who attract assholes - & others whom openly seek them, - what's that about (I'm looking for a bad boy)??????

Yup I know soo many girls my age who've gone looking for bad boys, then complain and blame everyone else when things go tits up. "

Yeah, & when bad boy inevitably ends up in jail, everyone else has to pay for mum & child, - maybe for some, this is the grand plan?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Of course there's some women who attract assholes - & others whom openly seek them, - what's that about (I'm looking for a bad boy)??????

Google the psychology of abused and neglected children. Also google about co-dependency.

You might wanna google about abusive relationships and how they happen, people do not enter relationships looking for a asshole, the asshole lies to them and doesn't show their real self until it's too late.

If you'll notice i got a supportive ex after that prick, i didn't even bother with guys for almost two years after i split with him. He put me off guys for life, and if i hadn't met my other ex i'd still be off them and not trust anyone.

So no i didn't go out looking for a asshole. Just happened to find one that was a good liar.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I'm just seriously old fashioned

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Victim blaming (google that too) still going on in this century? Seems we do still need feminism after all.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Of course there's some women who attract assholes - & others whom openly seek them, - what's that about (I'm looking for a bad boy)??????

Google the psychology of abused and neglected children. Also google about co-dependency.

So no i didn't go out looking for a asshole. Just happened to find one that was a good liar. "

I don't think you read my post property, - I most certainly wasn't referring to you or anyone else in particular

Although to be fair, I did know of a circle of witches who knew every trick in the beneficiary book & milked it for all it's worth!

This is the reason why I take the Feminist movement with a pinch of salt, - you cannot categorise half of the population in to one group when everyone's so different.

Equality: most certainly yes.

Feminism: not!

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Equalist...though i still can't help but open a door for a lady or allowing a lady to go first

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Equalist...though i still can't help but open a door for a lady or allowing a lady to go first

that's just polite, and a good way to check out her arse....

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I guess I would consider myself mostly an equalist, and this is relevant to a matter the military are facing at the moment.

being in the forces no matter what sex you are you get paid the same as the person next to you of the same rank. You can attend any course wether male or female. The one point that annoys me is the physical standards. Now I understand that a woman's body is physically different from a males body, and I am in now way saying that all the females in the forces are physically less fit than the male counterparts, as I know a few that are alot fitter that some guys, however the vast majority are.

I am totally up for having females fighting on the front line, but don't see why they should get to do the same job when the physical testing standards are so different. example, BASIC fitness test.

under 30 years old

Men: 44 pressups in two minutes

Fem: 21 pressups in two minutes

Men: 50 sit ups in two minutes

Fem: 50 sit ups in two minutes

Men: 1.5 mile run 10 and a half mins

Fem: 1.5 Mile run 13 mins

like I say, I am all for equality but standards should be the same! especially if they are going into the fighting role on the front line, especially if they are getting paid the same.

Feminists may argue that why should they have to meet the same standards of a man when they are anatomically different!

imagine this, front line troops come under an ambush, basic drills are you tactically withdraw as fast as possible out the area, carrying as much as 15-20kg on your back including weapon, ammo, helmet, body armour, syretchers, radios etc, if a females standards are not the same as the males she is putting the rest of the section at risk as they would need to slow down to keep her with the section.

It's a very sensitive subject, I in no way mean to offend anybody, as this is a personal view on how things are looking within my career at the moment.

I am all for equal opportunities

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Change is almost always resisted by those who do not feel the inequality.

The modus operandi is often to first deny that inequalities exist, then to see them as petty, then to see any change as unworkable, then to justify no change by presenting smoke screens of their own perceived inequalities.

VAT on sanitary towels is a very valid issue. It exists, is not petty, is easily changed by moving the category it is in from a VAT perspective and has nothing to do with how many press ups a woman serving on the front line can do.

Feminism is needed to agitate for change that simply will not happen without it.

I am for change, whatever label you want to put on that is up to you.

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By *udistnorthantsMan
over a year ago

Desborough

"Equalist...though i still can't help but open a door for a lady or allowing a lady to go first

that's just polite, and a good way to check out her arse....

Shhh

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By *iggles and BeardyCouple
over a year ago

Bristol

Egalitarian, but lately going by title sexist, purely to maintain a balance. As tons of blokes I know are calling themselves feminists just to appease girls in pubs and get their dicks wet.

Plus it's an argument that comes up constantly in pubs and some buggers got to argue the other side

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Ok, i'll be brave. Or foolish.

Hands up, how many "Equalist" women think that in all matters relating to divorce, men should get equality?

Don't rush. "

Law courts generally rule in favour of the parent who has been the primary caregiver of the child. (In my case they ruled in favour of my father).

The problem with the current system is that society places an expectation on heterosexual, monogamous couples for the woman to raise the child. Therefore in most divorce cases the mother is the primary caregiver and therefore will be awarded custody of the children.

Our patriarchal society hurts both men and women, in it's own ways. If there was less pressure for women to be the primary caregiver for the child and more fathers felt that they could give up their career to look after children, then I'm sure we'd eventually see custody statistics becoming more equal in the long term.

I believe that there should absolutely be equality in matters relating to divorce (my own parents divorce was heavily swayed towards my mother being given far more than she deserved). However before we attain equality in divorce then we need to break down the expectations on men and women to perform certain gender roles in society. When women and men can both feel they can make a free choice (without pressure) to be either caregivers or have a career, then 30 or 40 years after that we will find that divorces are perceived as being much fairer.

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By *iggles and BeardyCouple
over a year ago

Bristol

I was primary care giver for both my kids.

Result was

Men: most wished they got to see their kids as much as I did.

Women: ohh wow, you must love having an easy life not working.. Same women who 2 mins earlier were bitching at how hard their days are, looking after kids, shopping and cleaning up after them.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

We should all push for equality, I'm not sure how feminism unites us though. It just seems to cause arguments.. "

Here's something I'm involved in campaigning for then. Equal availability of contraception for men and women.

Last year I had surgery in order to sterilise me. I opted to have metal clips placed across my fallopian tubes in order to prevent an egg making it's way into my uterus and me becoming pregnant. I decided this because I never want to have children, hormonal tablets make me very, very ill and I enjoy a polyamorous lifestyle with multiple sexual partners. I also do not personally with to be faced with the choice of having an abortion and so I wanted to take steps to make sure that this didn't happen.

So with that in mind, I went to my GP. The short story is that it took two and a half years and three months of psychological investigation in order for me to get the surgery done. I was asked questions such as 'what about if you meet a rich man who wants children?', 'why are hormones such a problem? It's only a bit of stomach upset to deal with' and 'have you thought about having just one sexual partner at a time, who you would be happy to have children with?'

It was awful. Humiliating. I was made to repeat time and time again personal facts about the numbers of people I have had sex with, the amount of sexual partners I current have, made to explain polyamory over and over again, my bi/pansexuality was ridiculed ('if you like women, why don't you just go out with women and then you wouldn't need contraception') and repeatedly quizzed on my knowledge of sexually transmitted diseases and facts about the surgery itself. This mostly all happened because I'm younger than about 35 and choose to sleep with more than one person.

In comparison, a male friend of mine (the same age and sexuality) had surgical sterilisation. He asked for it to be done, was asked if he was sure, then had the surgery three weeks later.

The problem is that you feel like you can't complain. Because then you worry that you're going to jeopardise your treatment. You worry that they'll just mark you down as a whiny bitch who isn't getting her own way. Because they can say 'no' at any time and take your choices away from you. I did complain in the end, and I got told that I didn't know what I was talking about and that my treatment was entirely normal for someone my age and that it was stressful and unethical for the doctors to have to perform sterilisation on someone so young.

So yeah. I need feminism because I need to work towards a world where women's reproductive health and rights are treated the same way as men's are. Because no other young woman should have to go through what I did.

As for what we're doing? We write letters, we provide information to people who are thinking about having it done so that they can find the quickest path to having control over their own body. We provide support for those who have had a similar experience to myself.

We're not 'all feminists'. To assume that 'all feminists' have the same values or methodologies is wrong. That's a bit like saying that 'all gay activists' campaign in the same way about the same things - they don't.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I was primary care giver for both my kids.

Result was

Men: most wished they got to see their kids as much as I did.

Women: ohh wow, you must love having an easy life not working.. Same women who 2 mins earlier were bitching at how hard their days are, looking after kids, shopping and cleaning up after them."

Disgusting isn't it? One of my best friends went from being CEO of a large charity to stay at home dad (while his wife is a successful family law barrister) and honestly, you should hear the comments that he gets from people.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Following the discussion on woman's hour.. which are you.. I think I might be an equalist. With a drop of feminism

How did they define the differences?

Yeah, I'd be interested to hear that.

It wasn't entirely clear, in the end. The Equalist, broadly, didn't see gender as a defining factor. However, every example could be deconstructed as being about gender.

The feminist was clear on the issues of gender (just being female) was the defining factor in that inequality (e.g. VAT on sanitary products).

The discussion with the presenter of Man's Hour was then on to raise his suggestion again that we need a Minister for Men in government.

Surely, if i popped along to my local pharmacist and purchased some sanitary products, wouldn't i also be paying VAT?

That sounds like equality.

I'm sick of paying taxes full stop.

I think sanitary products SHOULD be free for under 18's and those on low incomes.

The framing of taxation of the items in question, as a feminist/gender issue is extremely misleading however. It is a problem with many schools (although not all) of 'modern feminism'.

P.s would you want that 5% tax break if it means less NHS funding, or cuts to education? "

Can we cut VAT on razor blades, shaving soap and styptic pencils?

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By *L RogueMan
over a year ago

London

[Removed by poster at 26/03/15 10:45:50]

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By *L RogueMan
over a year ago

London

"Equalist...though i still can't help but open a door for a lady or allowing a lady to go first

that's just polite, and a good way to check out her arse....

Shhh

I know, right?!

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

So here's another one. The Computers in Human Behaviour journal (published by Stamford University) has identified that after viewing hyper-sexualised images of women, men are more likely to view women as less intelligent, less competent, care less for their wellbeing and believe that women are more likely to 'cry wolf' at rape.

So there are many people (myself included) using feminist methodologies in various fields to try to understand why this happens and what strategies we can use in order to try and stop this happening in the future.

It doesn't appear to work the other way around, after viewing hyper-sexualised images of male bodies, women don't believe that men are less competent, etc.

This is a problem that affects western women today, not men. Well it does affect men, because lots of men don't want to be a part of a culture that encourages this kind of viewing behaviour. But mostly it affects the way that women are treated.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

We should all push for equality, I'm not sure how feminism unites us though. It just seems to cause arguments..

Here's something I'm involved in campaigning for then. Equal availability of contraception for men and women.

In comparison, a male friend of mine (the same age and sexuality) had surgical sterilisation. He asked for it to be done, was asked if he was sure, then had the surgery three weeks later.

Hey wasp , the contraceptive method you chose ( the metal clip, ) is that reversible ?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Hey wasp , the contraceptive method you chose ( the metal clip, ) is that reversible ? "

Yes, it can be reversed with surgery.

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By *ee VianteWoman
over a year ago

Somewhere in North Norfolk

So you don't believe in equality after all?

I believe that women and disabled people should have the same opportunity to participate in high level sports as men do.

So yes, I'm into equality. Because I think that people should have an equal opportunity to have fun and participate in sports.

So by your own definition, equality is not possible? People of less ability cannot compete with people of a higher ability. Everyone can participate and enjoy sports, but not at the same level."

Equality is not necessarily about treating all people the same.

It's about giving them the same opportunities and rights and regarding them all as equally valuable and worthwhile.

Sometimes in order to give people equal rights, they need to be treated differently.

To give dyslexic children the same opportunity in exams as children without dyslexia, allowances are made. They're treated differently to afford them the same opportunity, to address their disadvantage.

Equality = same opportunities, not treating everyone the same.

I think a lot of people misunderstand the word and the concept.

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By *ee VianteWoman
over a year ago

Somewhere in North Norfolk

Hey wasp , the contraceptive method you chose ( the metal clip, ) is that reversible ?

Yes, it can be reversed with surgery."

Ooh, metal clip? I'm not aware of that method and I'm currently reviewing my options. May I have the name of the method please, so I can look into it?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

My best mate had her 5 kids by the age of 26, and was not coping and drinking a lot. They wouldn't even sterilise her, said she was too young and might want more kids.

So her husband went and got the snip instead.

Didn't know they did all that if you wanted to get sterlised young coz she just told her husband to get himself done instead.

It's like they're acting like you don't know what you want if your female, but act like men know what they want.

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By *L RogueMan
over a year ago

London

So you don't believe in equality after all?

I believe that women and disabled people should have the same opportunity to participate in high level sports as men do.

So yes, I'm into equality. Because I think that people should have an equal opportunity to have fun and participate in sports.

So by your own definition, equality is not possible? People of less ability cannot compete with people of a higher ability. Everyone can participate and enjoy sports, but not at the same level.

Equality is not necessarily about treating all people the same.

It's about giving them the same opportunities and rights and regarding them all as equally valuable and worthwhile.

Sometimes in order to give people equal rights, they need to be treated differently.

Equality = same opportunities, not treating everyone the same.

I think a lot of people misunderstand the word and the concept."

Well put.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Hey wasp , the contraceptive method you chose ( the metal clip, ) is that reversible ?

Yes, it can be reversed with surgery.

Ooh, metal clip? I'm not aware of that method and I'm currently reviewing my options. May I have the name of the method please, so I can look into it?"

It's called tubal ligation.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

It's like they're acting like you don't know what you want if your female, but act like men know what they want."

That's exactly my problem. Not being trusted to make my own decisions about my lifestyle simply because I'm a woman.

Thankfully my 3rd(!) gynaecologist was wonderful. He even did the proceedure himself so that his team couldn't object on moral grounds - although the anaesthetist made it very clear on the day that she didn't agree with doing it.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

It's like they're acting like you don't know what you want if your female, but act like men know what they want.

That's exactly my problem. Not being trusted to make my own decisions about my lifestyle simply because I'm a woman.

Don't even understand how it got like this. Glad you got sorted eventually.

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By *ee VianteWoman
over a year ago

Somewhere in North Norfolk

Hey wasp , the contraceptive method you chose ( the metal clip, ) is that reversible ?

Yes, it can be reversed with surgery.

Ooh, metal clip? I'm not aware of that method and I'm currently reviewing my options. May I have the name of the method please, so I can look into it?

It's called tubal ligation."

Thanks. I want to stop taking hormones and I never want kids, (I'm getting too old for that now anyway). I'm going to family planning to discuss options soon. I'll do some research and ask them.

I'm also happy to support campaigns, (other than financially - I'm broke!), sign petitions and send letters etc for issues such as women being denied control over their reproductive health.

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By *gNeMan
over a year ago

Harrogate

We should all push for equality, I'm not sure how feminism unites us though. It just seems to cause arguments..

Here's something I'm involved in campaigning for then. Equal availability of contraception for men and women.

In comparison, a male friend of mine (the same age and sexuality) had surgical sterilisation. He asked for it to be done, was asked if he was sure, then had the surgery three weeks later.

This is a very unique issue. It cannot be compared like for like with male equivalents. Vasectomy reversals have a much higher success rate and do not have the potential to cause complications during a later pregnancy. The reasons they have such a stringent process for women under 35 seeking sterilisation is that often hormones can evoke a very strong desire to have children, and if this then becomes impossible due to an earlier surgery can lead to severe depressions etc.

The thing about computer pornography I totally agree with. However fail to see how it is a feminist issue.. It is simply the exploitation of people, ignoring human decency all in the pursuit of profit. Even if this is a feminist issue, what are you doing to constructively solve the problem?

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By *leur de lisWoman
over a year ago

Buxton

I think you are struggling in life if you feel you have to conform to fit far better to be an individual.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Firstly - this isn't just a problem in the surgical sterlisation route. I've also struggled sometimes to get other types of contreception and I know many, many friends who have also been told that they don't know what is right for their own bodyl

In addition, the medical research doesn't back up your hypothesis (although, thank you for explaining to me how my own body works - that's part of the problem here). There are actually studies into the fact that some women just aren't mentally suited to having children, and that having children could put them at severe risk of mental health issues afterwards. It works both ways. you see. Not to mention that women aren't supposed to stay on the pill for longer than 6-10 years since we don't know what the long term side affects are.

Women's reproductive health is still a real problem, and we do not have the opportunities that we should have. Even getting some medical conditions related to reproductive health recognised by the NHS is a struggle. For example I can think of seven women in my friendship group who are currently fighting to have different conditions relating to their reproductive organs that cause them pain recognised by the NHS and I personally am suffering from a condition that is recognised on the continent but not on the NHS. There's so much work still to be done - rest assured that my case is not a minority.

"The thing about computer pornography I totally agree with. However fail to see how it is a feminist issue.. It is simply the exploitation of people, ignoring human decency all in the pursuit of profit. Even if this is a feminist issue, what are you doing to constructively solve the problem? "

I wasn't talking about computer pornography. I was talking about hyper-sexualised imagery. This journal focusses on computer avatars in games such as Warcraft or the various AAA titles, but it's the same research that is being done into advertising imagery, glamour imagery, etc. This is NOT pornography, this is imagery that is accessible by anyone, anywhere.

What am I doing? I'm taking a research masters and then hopefully a PhD into the subject, in order to work academically in the future. Hopefully I'll help to educate new, young feminists who can go out into the world and also make changes to societies norms.

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By *gNeMan
over a year ago

Harrogate

'Some women' key point. You are complaining about the fact that medical professionals care about your personal wellbeing and made you jump through a lot of hoops in order to have an elective surgery. I fail to see how that is a result of an evil patriarchal system.

Women's reproductive health, men's reproductive health, in fact healthcare in general needs to be improved. People dying waiting for organs. Cancer patients being told they have to pay for their own treatments. All failures of the health service, you want to focus on one fairly minor issue affecting only women and claim it is a representation of endemic sexism, go ahead.

World of Warcraft players don't even interact with women lol. In all seriousness though, what point are you trying to make? Men are genetically predisposed to react to certain imagery which women aren't? What do you propose, compulsive behavioural conditioning in young boys?

Thanks for the discussion, I know I won't change the way you perceive things, but you have reinforced my feelings on contemporary feminism. It is an academic pursuit and serves very little purpose other than to create antipathy and societal friction.

There are problems throughout the world affecting everybody and we need to work together to solve them, not encourage division based on gender, and apportion blame.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I'm not complaining that medical professionals cared about my wellbeing at all. I'm complaining that I was repeatedly humiliated because of my lifestyle choices, made to feel like I wasn't a useful part of society, had my own personal morals questioned (what if I meet a rich man, etc) and told that I don't know my own brain well enough to know that I don't want children. Twice.

When a man isn't even asked more than 'are you sure?'.

Something is not right.

"you want to focus on one fairly minor issue affecting only women and claim it is a representation of endemic sexism, go ahead. "

That's kind of one of the points of feminism. To work on issues primarily that affect women. Clue is in the name. Just like gay rights campaigners don't generally work on issues that primarily affect straight people.

"World of Warcraft players don't even interact with women lol. In all seriousness though, what point are you trying to make? Men are genetically predisposed to react to certain imagery which women aren't? What do you propose, compulsive behavioural conditioning in young boys?

Actually it's cultural conditioning that causes people to react that way, not genetics. Change the culture, change the reaction.

"Thanks for the discussion, I know I won't change the way you perceive things, but you have reinforced my feelings on contemporary feminism. It is an academic pursuit and serves very little purpose other than to create antipathy and societal friction."

I have given you an example of one academic and one non academic pursuit. Seems like a pretty even balance to me. Other people on this thread have discussed sports, pay gaps, hygiene products, etc. My particular interest is primarily in academic feminism (because I'm an art historian) but I am only a tiny minority of those who identify as feminists.

I wasn't trying to convince you of my opinion, and I didn't realise that you were trying to convince me that I was wrong.

If someone cannot see that we live in a system that still subscribes to patriarchal values then to be honest, I feel a bit sorry for them. Patriarchal values harm both women and men (and other genders too). Some of us are working actively to try and break down those problems. You seem utterly unable to recognise that there are problems in the world for women that men do not face - but that is a commonplace view from those who have not had to fight in order to get where they are.

Perhaps the next time you have a job interview, you'll spare a thought for the female candidates who may well be asked 'are you planning to have children?' in their interview. Or for the woman at the job centre who can't find work because she's of child-bearing age. Maybe sometime you'll think about how some of your female friends will have been asked when heading off to university 'are you looking for a first, a blue or a man?' while it was naturally assumed that you could attain any or all of those things. Maybe next time a woman complains of the side affects from taking the pill, you'll have a think about the fact that she might not be able to get the actual contraception that she wants, and instead has to pump her body full of chemicals so that you can shag without worrying about child support payments.

You know. Just a thought.

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By *gNeMan
over a year ago

Harrogate

When a man isn't even asked more than 'are you sure?'.

Something is not right.

you want to focus on one fairly minor issue affecting only women and claim it is a representation of endemic sexism, go ahead.

Actually it's cultural conditioning that causes people to react that way, not genetics. Change the culture, change the reaction.

I wasn't trying to convince you of my opinion, and I didn't realise that you were trying to convince me that I was wrong.

You know. Just a thought."

You are ignoring my point on the increased implications sterilisation has over women. Men with similar lifestyle choices to yours are also marginalised. That's just intolerance and prejudice, not sexism.

Yet most feminists claim feminism is about equality and men and women should be a involved.

Another fundamental problem with feminist theory. The debate over nature vs nurture has been raging for decades, yet feminists take it as gospel that patriarchal cultural conditioning is responsible for everything.

I was hoping for you to provide me with a genuine irrefutable example of oppression, and explain how feminists are actively affecting change in a positive way. You have not provided such.

Im not trying to convince you of anything..

I am not saying we don't live in a patriarchal society. Things are changing though, it's called progress. Feminism is only slowing this progress. I don't know how you fail to see it.

Every society throughout history has been patriarchal in structure. We have now reached a stage of cultural enlightenment where we no longer need such structures.

I feel sorry for people who think that they are a perpetual victim.

The pill was the poster child of female reproductive rights back in the 60's (invented by a couple of blokes btw..) and now you are using it as an example of oppression! It's sentiment like this that totally undermines what feminism HAS achieved in the past. Look at the whole ban bossy Twitter campaign absolutely ridiculous.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Sometimes it's not something as tangible as an example though that will mean anything to someone who hasn't experienced it, it's just a feeling and a perception. I was on an interview panel recently and one of the (older male) candidates didn't make any eye contact with me at all, preferring to direct all his attention to my (older male) colleagues. (He didn't get the job.) That's just ONE little example out of ONE working day, alone it isn't much at all, and I'm sure you could say the same about things like VAT on sanitary products - but it's all the little examples combined that make you feel like you're still having to work that little bit harder than you would if you were a man.

I'm also well aware that to a woman in another country who hasn't been allowed an education, isn't allowed to drive, is treated like property, is raped as an act of war and many many other ways around the world that women are completely subjugated, my examples would seem equally pathetic as they probably do to you.

I'm a feminist. I'm not a victim, because I do very well at pushing that little bit harder than my male colleagues in the workplace and I surround myself with friends and acquaintances who aren't arseholes. But if I was born in another country I might have been aborted or had my spine broken at birth just for being female. Those are issues of poverty, absolutely, but they're also ones which are specific to being female. I don't hate or want to oppress men. It's not a race to the lowest common denominator or trying to make men's experience of the world somehow worse, it's bringing women up to the same life chances and opportunities they would have had if they were male.

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By *gNeMan
over a year ago

Harrogate

"Sometimes it's not something as tangible as an example though that will mean anything to someone who hasn't experienced it, it's just a feeling and a perception. I was on an interview panel recently and one of the (older male) candidates didn't make any eye contact with me at all, preferring to direct all his attention to my (older male) colleagues. (He didn't get the job.) That's just ONE little example out of ONE working day, alone it isn't much at all, and I'm sure you could say the same about things like VAT on sanitary products - but it's all the little examples combined that make you feel like you're still having to work that little bit harder than you would if you were a man.

Your perception of what it means to be a feminist is entirely different to many other women's though. The ideology has become bloated and directionless.

I cannot disagree with any of the points you have raised however must question how feminism is actively helping with any such issues.

Humanitarian aid workers actively go out to worn torn countries and help rape victims and child soldiers etc. they build schools for girls. What do feminist activists do?

It is also important to note generational differences. I agree misogyny is rife among older males. However from my experience amongst my peers, work partners and team mates are picked based on skill and experience rather than gender.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I was hoping for you to provide me with a genuine irrefutable example of oppression, and explain how feminists are actively affecting change in a positive way. You have not provided such. "

You are confusing 'me' with 'all feminists'. Your fundamental mistake is believing that all female feminists think the same way. We do not.

And as the poster above said - sometimes it can be hard to see these things when you are not directly affected by them. But every time someone says 'you're making a mountain out of a molehill' (which is basically what you're doing, btw) it reminds me that we still have so far to go to just *start* on the same footing as a similarly brought up guy.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Also, guys are not treated the same with when it comes to reproductive health.

I know this because I have several male partners who have gone through various procedures.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Humanitarian aid workers actively go out to worn torn countries and help rape victims and child soldiers etc. they build schools for girls. What do feminist activists do?

This might surprise you, but lots of humanitarian aid workers who are working with women, are feminists.

It's not a 'one or the other' situation. You can be both, you know.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Following the discussion on woman's hour.. which are you.. I think I might be an equalist. With a drop of feminism"

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By *L RogueMan
over a year ago

London

I was hoping for you to provide me with a genuine irrefutable example of oppression, and explain how feminists are actively affecting change in a positive way. You have not provided such.

You are confusing 'me' with 'all feminists'. Your fundamental mistake is believing that all female feminists think the same way. We do not.

Maybe it's the in-house fighting that's the problem.

I'm all for equality across gender, race and social boundaries but the objectives have to be clear and true success comes from a united front.

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By *gNeMan
over a year ago

Harrogate

I was hoping for you to provide me with a genuine irrefutable example of oppression, and explain how feminists are actively affecting change in a positive way. You have not provided such.

You are confusing 'me' with 'all feminists'. Your fundamental mistake is believing that all female feminists think the same way. We do not.

I most definitely am not, your particular brand seems quite unique.

I just think there are much bigger problems with regard to social inequality and I think investing time and energy into studying perceived injustices without any real proposed action is a waste.

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By *gNeMan
over a year ago

Harrogate

"Also, guys are not treated the same with when it comes to reproductive health.

I know this because I have several male partners who have gone through various procedures."

Yep and male reproductive rights are none existent.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Your perception of what it means to be a feminist is entirely different to many other women's though. The ideology has become bloated and directionless.

I cannot disagree with any of the points you have raised however must question how feminism is actively helping with any such issues.

Humanitarian aid workers actively go out to worn torn countries and help rape victims and child soldiers etc. they build schools for girls. What do feminist activists do?

Perhaps you feel feminism is bloated and dirctionless as a movement because actually the scale of the problems faced are so widespread and large that it's impossible to focus on one issue that's going to 'solve' sexism.

What is a 'feminist activist' anyway? I'd argue someone like Hilary Clinton could be classed as a feminist activist because she's helped broker UN resolutions about improving maternal health outcomes and rights of women to education. Feminist activists in Liberia helped bring down Charles Taylor and end the civil war there. Feminist activists in this country have helped enshrine equal pay for equal work in law. Feminist activists are working with police forces to try to improve rape conviction rates. Feminist activists are trying to improve options for women who have children, such as the right to request flexible working (which also benefits men, not just parents but those with any caring responsibilities). Why am I not like 'other feminists'? Why do we have to be reduced to one homogenised group?

As I said above, it's very easy not to see something when it doesn't affect you. I don't see racism on a day to day basis, because I'm white living in a predominantly white city in a predominantly white country. So I don't tend to get stopped and searched without reasonable cause. That doesn't mean I don't think racism exists in British society. I'm straight so my life isn't affected by homophobia. I'm happy to put a photo of my husband on my desk, whereas my lesbian colleague doesn't like having her wedding photo on show. I'm not disabled, so I don't tend to notice physical barriers in shops or pubs or public transport that the less able-bodied would find a massive challenge. But when black people, or gay people, or disabled people point these things out to me, I don't dismiss them as just people wanting to call themselves as victims, just because I don't naturally see or experience the things that make life more difficult for them.

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By *L RogueMan
over a year ago

London

Your perception of what it means to be a feminist is entirely different to many other women's though. The ideology has become bloated and directionless.

I cannot disagree with any of the points you have raised however must question how feminism is actively helping with any such issues.

Humanitarian aid workers actively go out to worn torn countries and help rape victims and child soldiers etc. they build schools for girls. What do feminist activists do?

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By *gNeMan
over a year ago

Harrogate

I was hoping for you to provide me with a genuine irrefutable example of oppression, and explain how feminists are actively affecting change in a positive way. You have not provided such.

You are confusing 'me' with 'all feminists'. Your fundamental mistake is believing that all female feminists think the same way. We do not.

Maybe it's the in-house fighting that's the problem.

I'm all for equality across gender, race and social boundaries but the objectives have to be clear and true success comes from a united front."

Exactly! I couldn't agree more. That's the point I'm really getting at, all that current mainstream feminism seams to be achieving is creating a barrier to such a united front.

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By *ee VianteWoman
over a year ago

Somewhere in North Norfolk

I was hoping for you to provide me with a genuine irrefutable example of oppression, and explain how feminists are actively affecting change in a positive way. You have not provided such.

You are confusing 'me' with 'all feminists'. Your fundamental mistake is believing that all female feminists think the same way. We do not.

I particularly agree with the bit about some people being unable to understand or accept something they haven't experienced.

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By *ee VianteWoman
over a year ago

Somewhere in North Norfolk

I was going to comment on some of the other points in some of the other posts until I saw the "victim" comment. Now I'm not going to waste my time.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Exactly! I couldn't agree more. That's the point I'm really getting at, all that current mainstream feminism seams to be achieving is creating a barrier to such a united front. "

But we're not a united organisation, all feminists don't have the same priorities or desires.

We're lots of different people, some of whom have things in common. I don't understand how that is so hard to understand.

I also fail to see what 'bigger problems' there are than things that affect over 50% of the population. Putting women on an equal footing with men, giving them the same opportunities, allowing them to have the same freedoms - that's a pretty big problem if you ask me. Which is why so many people, with such diverse goals, identify as feminists.

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By *ee VianteWoman
over a year ago

Somewhere in North Norfolk

Exactly! I couldn't agree more. That's the point I'm really getting at, all that current mainstream feminism seams to be achieving is creating a barrier to such a united front.

But we're not a united organisation, all feminists don't have the same priorities or desires.

We're lots of different people, some of whom have things in common. I don't understand how that is so hard to understand.

A pretty big problem, yes but it's our problem. Talk to the hand, basically. Lalalawe'renotlistening.

I know that sexism harms everyone, and you know it but some are too blinded by privilege even to look.

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By *uke olovingman OP Man
over a year ago

Gravesend

Wow.. a fascinating thread producing wonderful insights and great points of view.. I agree that vat on sanitary products is unjustifiable.. equal work or equivalent work should attract equal pay.. in sports if there are obvious physiological advantages for men or women then the sexes should play them separately unless mixed teams are feasible ... similarly where medical procedures are different to the same results ie sterilization then employment legislation should take this into account I'm not in favour of positive discrimination however as I feel this could be open to abuse..

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By *L RogueMan
over a year ago

London

Exactly! I couldn't agree more. That's the point I'm really getting at, all that current mainstream feminism seams to be achieving is creating a barrier to such a united front.

But we're not a united organisation, all feminists don't have the same priorities or desires.

We're lots of different people, some of whom have things in common. I don't understand how that is so hard to understand.

Maybe "United" might have been a stong word. What I was driving for is more understanding among feminists towards larger goals.

My point is sometimes pushing for such divisions doesn't help and while winning small battles is great, it's a long way from winning the war.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Maybe "United" might have been a stong word. What I was driving for is more understanding among feminists towards larger goals.

My point is sometimes pushing for such divisions doesn't help and while winning small battles is great, it's a long way from winning the war.

Do you think that all those who believe that people of colour should be treated equally, have a similar understanding of the goals they are trying to accomplish? Do they all do the same task at the same time in order to accomplish that? Do they have a united front in any way?

Because when I see campaigning and activism for people of colour to have equality, I see a very, very, very similar set of ideological beliefs to feminism.

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By *gNeMan
over a year ago

Harrogate

I feel that it's bloated and directionless because is is. There are multiple different schools of thought, and proponents of one school of feminism regularly battle with feminist from a different school of thought.

" What is a 'feminist activist' anyway? I'd argue someone like Hilary Clinton could be classed as a feminist activist because she's helped broker UN resolutions about improving maternal health outcomes and rights of women to education. Feminist activists in Liberia helped bring down Charles Taylor and end the civil war there. Feminist activists in this country have helped enshrine equal pay for equal work in law. Feminist activists are working with police forces to try to improve rape conviction rates. Feminist activists are trying to improve options for women who have children, such as the right to request flexible working (which also benefits men, not just parents but those with any caring responsibilities). Why am I not like 'other feminists'? Why do we have to be reduced to one homogenised group?

Yes theses are the kinds of examples of activism and positive action which I was looking for. Great. Do you genuinely feel that they represent the majority of feminist rhetoric though?

Problems caused by poverty and backwards thinking society's do in some instances uniquely affect women. However when we solve the underlying issues, educate and enlighten all, those problems cease to exist.

In terms of the feeling and perception you have, I am not saying these issues don't exist, I am saying that they can be solved more efficiently without looking at them through the lens of feminism. Yes there are obviously things which affect only women, but viewing those things from a perspective which insist that there is some sort of patriarchal conspiracy to suppress women is pervasive.

" As I said above, it's very easy not to see something when it doesn't affect you. I don't see racism on a day to day basis, because I'm white living in a predominantly white city in a predominantly white country. So I don't tend to get stopped and searched without reasonable cause. That doesn't mean I don't think racism exists in British society. I'm straight so my life isn't affected by homophobia. I'm happy to put a photo of my husband on my desk, whereas my lesbian colleague doesn't like having her wedding photo on show. I'm not disabled, so I don't tend to notice physical barriers in shops or pubs or public transport that the less able-bodied would find a massive challenge. But when black people, or gay people, or disabled people point these things out to me, I don't dismiss them as just people wanting to call themselves as victims, just because I don't naturally see or experience the things that make life more difficult for them.

Ok but I do see racism, homophobia, and discrimination on a near daily basis. I've never seen a girl my age in any of the things I have been involved in being discriminated against for being female..

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By *L RogueMan
over a year ago

London

Maybe "United" might have been a stong word. What I was driving for is more understanding among feminists towards larger goals.

My point is sometimes pushing for such divisions doesn't help and while winning small battles is great, it's a long way from winning the war.

Because when I see campaigning and activism for people of colour to have equality, I see a very, very, very similar set of ideological beliefs to feminism.

I do for everyone.

For example, someone mentioned the "Rooney" rule which could benefit both race and gender.

As I mentioned, sometimes, united can be a better way.

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By *gNeMan
over a year ago

Harrogate

Exactly! I couldn't agree more. That's the point I'm really getting at, all that current mainstream feminism seams to be achieving is creating a barrier to such a united front.

But we're not a united organisation, all feminists don't have the same priorities or desires.

We're lots of different people, some of whom have things in common. I don't understand how that is so hard to understand.

Again all rhetoric. You have still failed to provide a genuine example where men and women do not have the same opportunities or freedoms. I am all for that as well, just don't see how feminism helps. It alienates people to the cause if anything, trying to tell decent morally conscious teenage boys that playing world of Warcraft is sexist for example. Just doesn't help anyone..

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I'd argue that actually I, and some of the examples I've given, are closer to being 'mainstream' feminists than what I think you're talking about. It's just that actually we're quietly doing things every day that you agree are positive - so you don't object to them and feel affronted by them.

'It's bloated and directionless because it is' - but WHY is it? Perhaps because, as I suggested, it's a range of different people focusing on a range of different small changes that can be made to improve women's experience of life around the world? I don't feel in competition with other feminists, or that they're damaging me and my cause, but some of them do choose to focus on other issues than I do. I tend to think the way you improve things is lots of small incremental changes rather than putting all your hopes in one big campaign, so I don't mind that it's bloated and disparate.

And good for you if you've never seen women your age being subjected to any sexism. If they truly feel the same way too, then that's great. But just because you don't see it doesnt mean it's not happening. I'm not trying to create problems that aren't there, but it's what I was saying about sometimes it's a build up of a lot of little things rather than one big shocking incident which is the way that most women in this country experience sexism.

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By *ee VianteWoman
over a year ago

Somewhere in North Norfolk

"Ok but I do see racism, homophobia, and discrimination on a near daily basis. I've never seen a girl my age in any of the things I have been involved in being discriminated against for being female."

Yes you have, I can guarantee it. You just didn't notice it or didn't recognise it because it's so normal. The person doing the discriminating may not have been overt about it anyway. Serving a man before a woman in a pub, for example... It's not obvious he's treating the man better because he's a man, you'd have to be able to look at his thoughts to know, but it's possible.

Segregation was normal in some places at one point. White people didn't see discrimination because it was normal and correct.

Sometimes people don't see issues because they are so normal that they have to actually be taught they are issues.

"I see no ships"

Or, in other words, "I'm all right, Jack"

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By *igeiaWoman
over a year ago

Bristol

"You have still failed to provide a genuine example where men and women do not have the same opportunities or freedoms. I am all for that as well, just don't see how feminism helps. It alienates people to the cause if anything, trying to tell decent morally conscious teenage boys that playing world of Warcraft is sexist for example. Just doesn't help anyone.."

Genuine example? As a young girl I went to a football match at a second division ground. When I went to the loo at half time I had to actually go back out through the turnstile since they only had men's loos inside the ground and the women's were added on outside the entrance. I turned up to a gig soundcheck as a 20 something and was asked by the venue manager whose girlfriend I was and did I need putting on the guest list when I was actually in the band. Recently, went into a work meeting with a male colleague I outrank and the person we were meeting addressed him as sir and me as love. Tiny examples but they add up when you're subjected to that kind of thinking regularly.

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By *ee VianteWoman
over a year ago

Somewhere in North Norfolk

Exactly! I couldn't agree more. That's the point I'm really getting at, all that current mainstream feminism seams to be achieving is creating a barrier to such a united front.

But we're not a united organisation, all feminists don't have the same priorities or desires.

We're lots of different people, some of whom have things in common. I don't understand how that is so hard to understand.

Study has proved that the imagery in, for example, in WoW makes men regard women less well and treat women less well.

Why on Earth should we just accept that?!

We allow, unchecked, use of imagery that is proven to make men disrespect and care less about women. That's obviously harmful to the opportunities, as well as the rights of and safety of women.

I've seen loads of examples on here of where women don't have the same opportunities as men. You don't want to see them. You don't need to.

The post about resistance to change above is spot on.

You asked for examples, you got examples. You dismissed them, announced you still don't believe it and asked for more examples.

It doesn't matter how many examples we give you, you don't want to believe it, so you won't.

#LalalaI'mnotlistening

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By *gNeMan
over a year ago

Harrogate

"I'd argue that actually I, and some of the examples I've given, are closer to being 'mainstream' feminists than what I think you're talking about. It's just that actually we're quietly doing things every day that you agree are positive - so you don't object to them and feel affronted by them.

Actually I think you are a liberal feminist. Mainstream feminism represented in the media at the moment is slightly more extreme, pushing for things like as another poster mentioned positive discrimination and demonising masculinity.

Feminists argue and put down each other regularly. That is what I'm getting at, some say that getting yah boobs out is liberating and empowering, others say it is oppressive and seek to ban the practice.. Some feminists preach about opportunities and freedom, yet marginalise women who choose not to pursue a career.

Well I mix with people from a wide range of social backgrounds. I'm currently at university, however am from quite a poor background. I have two feminist friends at university, the other girls are quite indifferent. The girls at home don't even know what feminism is. You would have thought if there was such obvious oppression every girl would be a feminist no?

All those little things of which you speak are just the hangover of a previously oppressive society, and will naturally faze out of existence.

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By *ee VianteWoman
over a year ago

Somewhere in North Norfolk

Ah but that's not really discrimination, it's just how people are and besides there are far far worse things in the world so stop being a victim, love, and go and make us a coffee. That's a sweetheart.

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By *gNeMan
over a year ago

Harrogate

"Ok but I do see racism, homophobia, and discrimination on a near daily basis. I've never seen a girl my age in any of the things I have been involved in being discriminated against for being female.

Segregation was normal in some places at one point. White people didn't see discrimination because it was normal and correct.

Sometimes people don't see issues because they are so normal that they have to actually be taught they are issues.

"I see no ships"

Or, in other words, "I'm all right, Jack""

If you think blokes get served first in pubs your deluded lol

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By *ee VianteWoman
over a year ago

Somewhere in North Norfolk

" Feminists argue and put down each other regularly. That is what I'm getting at, some say that getting yah boobs out is liberating and empowering, others say it is oppressive and seek to ban the practice.. Some feminists preach about opportunities and freedom, yet marginalise women who choose not to pursue a career."

Really? Goodness, anyone would think we're individual people with our own experiences, priorities, views and ideas rather than a homogeneous group.

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By *ee VianteWoman
over a year ago

Somewhere in North Norfolk

"Ok but I do see racism, homophobia, and discrimination on a near daily basis. I've never seen a girl my age in any of the things I have been involved in being discriminated against for being female.

Segregation was normal in some places at one point. White people didn't see discrimination because it was normal and correct.

Sometimes people don't see issues because they are so normal that they have to actually be taught they are issues.

"I see no ships"

Or, in other words, "I'm all right, Jack"

If you think blokes get served first in pubs your deluded lol"

It was an example and yes, I've seen it happen.

I see people addressing the man in a couple as if it's a given he'll be making the decisions, unless it's about curtains because everyone knows that's a woman thing.

Go to a car showroom as a couple and see who a male salesman talks to and the difference in the way he talks to the man vs the woman.

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By *gNeMan
over a year ago

Harrogate

Your missing my point slightly, those are all genuine examples. Theses things just are happening less and less though, football grounds have male and female toilets. Old school misogynists will never change.

I work part time as part of my degree in construction. An industry notorious for sexism, and not once did I come across sexism amongst any of the other young professionals.

People seem to be taking an opposite stance on the grounds that feminism used to be rife. Which I am not denying whatsoever.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

All those little things of which you speak are just the hangover of a previously oppressive society, and will naturally faze out of existence. "

Do you appreciate that the fact you refer to your female friends as 'girls' rather than women (and have done so throughout this thread) when I guess you'd probably choose to identify yourself as a man rather than a boy is maybe a teeny tiny sign that you yourself are guilty of some of the very little things that I'm talking about? Those insidious little messages that probably aren't intended to be derogatory but when all added together add up to a woman being perceived as less capable?

How do you know your friends at home don't know what feminism is or want to identify as feminists? Perhaps because, like you, the mainstream (predominantly male controlled) media is telling them that feminism is one thing when what I'm saying is actually it can be another and in most cases is another. If you presented your version of feminism to me and told me I HAD be that way or not be a feminist, I'd probably say I wasn't one either.

Perhaps I'm just a cynic, but I believe that we should all be taking action to change things, not relying on society to them out. If women a hundred years ago had 'waited it out' I doubt I'd be going to a polling station to put my cross in the box in six weeks time.

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By *gNeMan
over a year ago

Harrogate

Really? Goodness, anyone would think we're individual people with our own experiences, priorities, views and ideas rather than a homogeneous group."

I'm sorry you've become emotionally involved but you're not making any sense.

I was having an interesting and thought provoking debate with a couple of the other ladies on the forum.

Whilst I do not agree with them I respect their views, and will politely rebut statements which I disagree with.

If you want to join in I'm more than happy to discuss with you.

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By *onyneMan
over a year ago

Newcastle

Seriously, who here amongst us really believes they're an equalist?

100% equality? Life is but a joke.

What's wrong with the belief that we should all be treated equally and given the same opportunities?"

...This is how things should be...the reason it isn't is historical bollocks from centuries of male domination...Things are better now [at least n the 'west' to a degree], but there is a long way to go...

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Really? Goodness, anyone would think we're individual people with our own experiences, priorities, views and ideas rather than a homogeneous group.

I'm sorry you've become emotionally involved but you're not making any sense.

I was having an interesting and thought provoking debate with a couple of the other ladies on the forum.

Whilst I do not agree with them I respect their views, and will politely rebut statements which I disagree with.

If you want to join in I'm more than happy to discuss with you. "

Dude, you're going to regret that one

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By *ee VianteWoman
over a year ago

Somewhere in North Norfolk

Really? Goodness, anyone would think we're individual people with our own experiences, priorities, views and ideas rather than a homogeneous group.

I'm sorry you've become emotionally involved but you're not making any sense.

I was having an interesting and thought provoking debate with a couple of the other ladies on the forum.

Whilst I do not agree with them I respect their views, and will politely rebut statements which I disagree with.

If you want to join in I'm more than happy to discuss with you. "

I'm not emotionally involved but I am incredulous at your attitude and claims.

As above, I realised at the victim comment that you are actually incapable of understanding this. It's not happening to you, so it doesn't happen. You don't see it but it's not that it's so natural that you don't notice, it doesn't happen. You lost my respect for your opinion at the victim comment.

You suggest feminism is somehow daft because some feminists disagree with other feminists on some issues, yet I'm the one not making sense.

You say you don't see women being treated differently. You're given examples. You say well yes but that wasn't my point, my point is things are changing.

How do you know things are changing when you've shown you're not actually aware of sexism when it happens, if you were to accept it happens, which you don't?

How do you know that the things that are changing is not partly to do with feminists campaigning for change?

As for 'some people will never change'. Does that really mean knuckle down and accept that's just the way it is? They'll never change so well, shrug, that's that then.

Nobody is having a discussion with you because you have your eyes closed and your fingers in your ears.

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By *ee VianteWoman
over a year ago

Somewhere in North Norfolk

Really? Goodness, anyone would think we're individual people with our own experiences, priorities, views and ideas rather than a homogeneous group.

I'm sorry you've become emotionally involved but you're not making any sense.

I was having an interesting and thought provoking debate with a couple of the other ladies on the forum.

Whilst I do not agree with them I respect their views, and will politely rebut statements which I disagree with.

If you want to join in I'm more than happy to discuss with you.

Dude, you're going to regret that one

Actually I feel sorry for him. Genuinely.

And where's my f'ing coffee, love?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Shots have been fired...

**exits thread**

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By *onbons_xxMan
over a year ago

Bolton

Really? Goodness, anyone would think we're individual people with our own experiences, priorities, views and ideas rather than a homogeneous group.

I'm sorry you've become emotionally involved but you're not making any sense.

I was having an interesting and thought provoking debate with a couple of the other ladies on the forum.

Whilst I do not agree with them I respect their views, and will politely rebut statements which I disagree with.

If you want to join in I'm more than happy to discuss with you.

Dude, you're going to regret that one

Well you did warn him

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By *ancs MinxWoman
over a year ago

Burnley

"I'm more a live in harmony person. One balancing out the other. I complete you,you complete me."

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By *gNeMan
over a year ago

Harrogate

This is exactly the kind of thing I mean. Focussing on words and trying to add an element of sexism which isn't there. I refer to my female friends as girls in the same way I say that I'm going out with the boys. In a professional setting I wouldn't dream of doing either!

I know because they're all out trying to get pregnant with different lads to get more on the social.

You do realise that the majority of men couldn't vote until 1918 right? And women over the age of 30 were given the right to vote the same year.. The reason that the age was 30 for women initially was that so many men (the oppressors) had died in the trenches that male and female votes would be incredibly asymmetrical if both genders could vote at 21..