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Social services advice please

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By (user no longer on site) OP   
over a year ago

A friends and her 16yr old had a blazing row Saturday night resulting in her daughter getting her dad to come to pick her up.

Her daughter then called the police and to cut a long story very short they came with social services.

They suggested it might be best if her two much younger children stayed somewhere else while they got to the bottom of things.

She agreed and called the father of those two. (Different dad).

As far as we are aware there has been no kind of order to take the kids away.

the father of the youngest two has now decided he's not going to give them back and social services are dragging their feet having not spoken to anyone except the two fathers on the phone.

The relationship with the 16yr old has been getting bad for a long time with the 16yr old being openly abusive of her mum.

The little ones are besotted with mum and are very distressed to be away as dad is just palming them off onto people they don't know so he can work.

Advice gratefully received!!!!!

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By (user no longer on site) OP   
over a year ago

I should clarify; she didn't agree the little ones would be better going away for a while. She just agreed to do it because she thought she had to.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Not sure swingers would give the best advice. I certainly don't feel qualified to do so. Citizens advice will, however. They are impartial and non-judgemental. They will give her honest, legal advice on the best way forward. I hope she gets it sorted soon. For hers, and the younger children's sake.

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By (user no longer on site) OP   
over a year ago

She's trying to get SB appointment with citizens advice. Easier said than done it seems!

People on here are people with life experience as well as swingers.

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By *ipsTeaserCouple
over a year ago

here and there, thereabouts

No expert at all, but I would suggest contact with both the police and social services to determine what and why the initial recommendation was made and how official that first arrangement was, as all else from there. CAB is a really good call.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"Not sure swingers would give the best advice."

Because they're not real people??

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"Not sure swingers would give the best advice.

Because they're not real people??

"

Because legal advice is required, and very few people are likely to be qualified to give such advice.

Heresay and experience is all well and good, until it leads someone to do the wrong thing.

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By *issHottieBottieWoman
over a year ago

Kent

I think (emphasis on think) that if the dad who the kids went to live with have their name on the birth certificate and therefor have parental responsibilities that he can legally keep the kids in his care (unless she has been to court and there is agreed access through them)

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By *onbons_xxMan
over a year ago

Bolton

Difference between opinions and advice here...I think professional advice is needed for this one. Most will have opinions, that's not to say the opinion is wrong either but I'd be seeking professional advice.

Stick it in the in-tray...

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By *iamondsmiles.Woman
over a year ago

little house on the praire

Does the mum have a residency order for the youngest two? If not than the dad doesn't have to give them back

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By *ap AdgeMan
over a year ago

Wirral

Have no.dealings with docial.services

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By *obbytupperMan
over a year ago

Menston near Ilkley


"Not sure swingers would give the best advice.

Because they're not real people??

Because legal advice is required, and very few people are likely to be qualified to give such advice.

Heresay and experience is all well and good, until it leads someone to do the wrong thing."

Very wise words.......and from one so young too!

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By *eryBigGirlWoman
over a year ago

East Yorkshire


"Does the mum have a residency order for the youngest two? If not than the dad doesn't have to give them back"

A mum doesn't need a RO for children she has automatic parental responsibility for them. If the father doesn't have pr then he is withholding them illegally!

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By *eryBigGirlWoman
over a year ago

East Yorkshire


"I think (emphasis on think) that if the dad who the kids went to live with have their name on the birth certificate and therefor have parental responsibilities that he can legally keep the kids in his care (unless she has been to court and there is agreed access through them)

"

You're correct

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By *iamondsmiles.Woman
over a year ago

little house on the praire


"Does the mum have a residency order for the youngest two? If not than the dad doesn't have to give them back

A mum doesn't need a RO for children she has automatic parental responsibility for them. If the father doesn't have pr then he is withholding them illegally!"
can you tell me when this law changed as it definetly used to be the case, I had first hand experience and had to go to court to get a residency order put in place

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By *iamondsmiles.Woman
over a year ago

little house on the praire


"I think (emphasis on think) that if the dad who the kids went to live with have their name on the birth certificate and therefor have parental responsibilities that he can legally keep the kids in his care (unless she has been to court and there is agreed access through them)

You're correct "
that's what I've just said and you told me i was wrong

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I suggest getting a solicitor asap .....find out if a section 20 was said.....is the father on birth certificate etc. Go to the local social services office and find out what they are doing and what if any concerns they have. X hope this helps

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Actually taking a few steps back I am very surprised the police were accompanied by social services. Outside office hours there is a duty social worker available who covers quite a large area and would not turn up at a domestic to which the police were called. If the police were concerned for the safety of any minors in the household they would remove them there and then to a place of safety. Are you sure this is what happened?

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By *eryBigGirlWoman
over a year ago

East Yorkshire


"Does the mum have a residency order for the youngest two? If not than the dad doesn't have to give them back

A mum doesn't need a RO for children she has automatic parental responsibility for them. If the father doesn't have pr then he is withholding them illegally!can you tell me when this law changed as it definetly used to be the case, I had first hand experience and had to go to court to get a residency order put in place"

No sorry it's never been law. A RO (or child arrangement order as it is now) is usually only granted when the parents cannot agree on things and the court steps in to make the decision but in the majority of cases there is no order. My daughter remained with me after separating from her father but I have no order

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"Not sure swingers would give the best advice.

Because they're not real people??

"

No cause they are not qualified

If it was me I'd go see a solicitor and gets some proper legal advice

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By *reelove1969Couple
over a year ago

bristol

when you say 'palming off' do you mean

arranging childcare whilst at work or something different ?

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By *eryBigGirlWoman
over a year ago

East Yorkshire


"I think (emphasis on think) that if the dad who the kids went to live with have their name on the birth certificate and therefor have parental responsibilities that he can legally keep the kids in his care (unless she has been to court and there is agreed access through them)

You're correct that's what I've just said and you told me i was wrong"

Sorry you referred to a residence order this refers to whether the father has pr or not!

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By *iamondsmiles.Woman
over a year ago

little house on the praire


"I think (emphasis on think) that if the dad who the kids went to live with have their name on the birth certificate and therefor have parental responsibilities that he can legally keep the kids in his care (unless she has been to court and there is agreed access through them)

You're correct that's what I've just said and you told me i was wrong

Sorry you referred to a residence order this refers to whether the father has pr or not!"
oh OK, maybe I wasn't clear how I worded it.

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By *iamondsmiles.Woman
over a year ago

little house on the praire


"Does the mum have a residency order for the youngest two? If not than the dad doesn't have to give them back

A mum doesn't need a RO for children she has automatic parental responsibility for them. If the father doesn't have pr then he is withholding them illegally!can you tell me when this law changed as it definetly used to be the case, I had first hand experience and had to go to court to get a residency order put in place

No sorry it's never been law. A RO (or child arrangement order as it is now) is usually only granted when the parents cannot agree on things and the court steps in to make the decision but in the majority of cases there is no order. My daughter remained with me after separating from her father but I have no order "
I agree with that, but what was to happen if her father was to take her away for the weekend. I was told because my ex had pr I had to have a residency order in place with particular access times otherwise he was well within his rights to keep him

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

A dad here that has been there and got the t-shirt from both adult and kid side as well as helping sis through the mums side of a very very similar situation right now, and can tell you that in most cases, if social are involved you are entiteled to legal aid in custody cases. Get a solicitor asap, get to court for residancy if she dont have it, and get visitation orders in place. That way she will always have the law on her side. If in what i assume is this case and you dont have them orders in place then your only option is to get them first.

So ring around all the family law places and find 1 that does legal aid and they will tell you the finer points.

I do know that if you agree to hand children over to social to stop thing getting out of hand or any reason like that, and not have social take them with out you signing the forms, then the whole process will be quicker and easier if you keep on at them as they dont have as much power in those situations, but will never tell you that. That is a back handed approch they always try and use. But thats social for you.

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By *iamondsmiles.Woman
over a year ago

little house on the praire

Thanks, I'm no longer confused I was making the assumption the mother and father had been married

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

As soon as the state interferes in the upbringing of your kids,

You need to get a solicitor, this is covered by legal aid no matter how much you earn

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

It's been a while but...if the parents weren't married the dad has no more right to residency than anyone else, if his name is on the birth certificate he has parental responsibility buy no more.

And as mentioned above keep social services out of it as much as possible.

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By *ust RachelTV/TS
over a year ago

Horsham

[Removed by poster at 20/01/15 16:02:53]

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By *ust RachelTV/TS
over a year ago

Horsham

Go get legal advice, some solicitors do give free legal advice, try them as they will either give you good advice or tell you how much it might cost to get things started.

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By (user no longer on site) OP   
over a year ago

Spoken to a solicitor. No order is in place so he says she's free to just take them back.

If they are with her they will be in a familiar home. Near their school and friends.

With dad they are sharing a single room he rents. He's working away from tomorrow so has asked his new girlfriend to have them.

They went there once before and her kids picked on them. They hated it.

Social serices say they are waiting to see what the police want them to do but the officer investigating isn't in work til Thursday!

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"Not sure swingers would give the best advice. I certainly don't feel qualified to do so. Citizens advice will, however. They are impartial and non-judgemental. They will give her honest, legal advice on the best way forward. I hope she gets it sorted soon. For hers, and the younger children's sake."

I know a swinger who works for citizens advice. Would you trust him ?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"Does the mum have a residency order for the youngest two? If not than the dad doesn't have to give them back

A mum doesn't need a RO for children she has automatic parental responsibility for them. If the father doesn't have pr then he is withholding them illegally!"

That will depend on the ages of the children as, if they were born after 1st Jan 2003 and his name is on the birth certificate he will automatically have parental responsibility. Bear in mind also that the Police have been involved. I suggest that BOTH parents seek professional legal advice

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"Not sure swingers would give the best advice.

Because they're not real people??

"

im rwal

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By *eavenNhellCouple
over a year ago

carrbrook stalybridge

Don't trust anyone from the SS don't agree to anything without a lawyer present don't agree to allow children to leave you no matter how temporary they say it is make them get a court order for everything

DO NOT TRUST ANYONE FROM SOCIAL SERVICES no matter how friendly they may seem

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"Does the mum have a residency order for the youngest two? If not than the dad doesn't have to give them back

A mum doesn't need a RO for children she has automatic parental responsibility for them. If the father doesn't have pr then he is withholding them illegally!can you tell me when this law changed as it definetly used to be the case, I had first hand experience and had to go to court to get a residency order put in place

No sorry it's never been law. A RO (or child arrangement order as it is now) is usually only granted when the parents cannot agree on things and the court steps in to make the decision but in the majority of cases there is no order. My daughter remained with me after separating from her father but I have no order "

I stayed with my father when my parents separated.

I do not believe that mothers get automatic custody of children. But this is why real legal advice should be obtained.

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By *eryBigGirlWoman
over a year ago

East Yorkshire


"Does the mum have a residency order for the youngest two? If not than the dad doesn't have to give them back

A mum doesn't need a RO for children she has automatic parental responsibility for them. If the father doesn't have pr then he is withholding them illegally!can you tell me when this law changed as it definetly used to be the case, I had first hand experience and had to go to court to get a residency order put in place

No sorry it's never been law. A RO (or child arrangement order as it is now) is usually only granted when the parents cannot agree on things and the court steps in to make the decision but in the majority of cases there is no order. My daughter remained with me after separating from her father but I have no order

I stayed with my father when my parents separated.

I do not believe that mothers get automatic custody of children. But this is why real legal advice should be obtained."

If a father has no PR then the mother would indeed get automatic custody as she is the only person who holds PR for the child. However obviously a child can live with either parent if they both mutually agree or it can be agreed through the courts if they don't.

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By *issHottieBottieWoman
over a year ago

Kent


"Does the mum have a residency order for the youngest two? If not than the dad doesn't have to give them back

A mum doesn't need a RO for children she has automatic parental responsibility for them. If the father doesn't have pr then he is withholding them illegally!can you tell me when this law changed as it definetly used to be the case, I had first hand experience and had to go to court to get a residency order put in place

No sorry it's never been law. A RO (or child arrangement order as it is now) is usually only granted when the parents cannot agree on things and the court steps in to make the decision but in the majority of cases there is no order. My daughter remained with me after separating from her father but I have no order

I stayed with my father when my parents separated.

I do not believe that mothers get automatic custody of children. But this is why real legal advice should be obtained."

No mothers don't get automatic custody if the father is on the birth certificate they have equal parental responsibility. When I was having real trouble with my ex I was worried sick that he would pick my son up from school one day and not let me have him back. If that had happened I would of had to go to court to ask them to make him return him to me. Luckily I don't think he would want the responsibility of being a parent full time so he's never done anything like that.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"

If a father has no PR then the mother would indeed get automatic custody as she is the only person who holds PR for the child. However obviously a child can live with either parent if they both mutually agree or it can be agreed through the courts if they don't. "

If that is true, then society is deeply fucking wounded.

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By *eryBigGirlWoman
over a year ago

East Yorkshire

[Removed by poster at 20/01/15 18:50:36]

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By *eryBigGirlWoman
over a year ago

East Yorkshire


"

If a father has no PR then the mother would indeed get automatic custody as she is the only person who holds PR for the child. However obviously a child can live with either parent if they both mutually agree or it can be agreed through the courts if they don't.

If that is true, then society is deeply fucking wounded."

I can assure you it is true and why fathers have fought for equal rights for years. However, the mother gets automatic PR as she has physically carried and birthed the child therefore parenthood cannot be questioned but a father is only ever a punitive father in the eyes of the law hence the mother has to name them on the birth certificate or be married to them at the time of birth to have PR. Outdated and antiquated but sadly still so.

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By *iamondsmiles.Woman
over a year ago

little house on the praire


"

If a father has no PR then the mother would indeed get automatic custody as she is the only person who holds PR for the child. However obviously a child can live with either parent if they both mutually agree or it can be agreed through the courts if they don't.

If that is true, then society is deeply fucking wounded.

I can assure you it is true and why fathers have fought for equal rights for years. However, the mother gets automatic PR as she has physically carried and birthed the child therefore parenthood cannot be questioned but a father is only ever a punitive father in the eyes of the law hence the mother has to name them on the birth certificate or be married to them at the time of birth to have PR. Outdated and antiquated but sadly still so.

"
I would assume though that majority of fathers that where either in a relationship with the mother or cared about the child at the time of birth would be on the birth certificate,

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Seeing all the contradictions here from people with "experience" but clearly no or very differing grasp of the law....I refer to my first post. THIS is NOT the place to ask. C.A.B. is the place to go. If you act on opinion and here say, and get it wrong...you will just make it worse.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Regardless of any advice offered on here this is an issue that can only be resolved by going through the proper channels .i.e. Social services and the Police .

Whether people agree or disagree with the way these difficulties are handled is irrelevant .

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By *trawberry-popWoman
over a year ago

South East Midlands NOT

When social services suggest that children should live elsewhere and the parent agrees to this its a section 20 arrangement where the parent effectively signs over the children.

It's strange they took the younger children, it's more common for the 'problematic' child to be removed.

She can retract her permission for the local authority to care for her children if it *is* a section 20, and can even request that the older child is accommodated due to the break down of the relationship.

Social services will still want to run assessments etc, which should be co-operated with as best as possible.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

What if it has been done with good cause? Maybe there is a reason they were taken, we don't know. I'm not assuming anything but just cannot see police turning up with social worker in tow and the younger children being taken away without reasonable cause.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

It is indeed a section 20 if a child or parent of the child voluntarily agrees to the child being placed elsewhere .Also to remove the younger children with out good cause is unusual as the family are as a rule encouraged to stay together . I think that as none of us know the FULL facts then we shouldn't be advising . There could be more to this than we know or are likely to know.

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