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"I understand that it's an annual thing for the U.S. and a few small islands to reject UN resolutions/proposals concerning Palestine. My question is why? The Jordanian proposal SEEMS reasonable though I've only read the BBC's readers digest version. Essentially Jordan wishes Israel to consider not building anymore settlements in occupied territories (or disputed territories according to Israel) and to return to the 1967 borders with both sharing Jerusalem as a capital. Are those things unreasonable - so much so that Israel completely rejects them? Confuzzled. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-30543138" Israel possibly considers that just conceding things is not really compromissing. | |||
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" Israel possibly considers that just conceding things is not really compromissing." Conceding land that (by international law) doesn't even belong to them? | |||
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" Israel possibly considers that just conceding things is not really compromissing. Conceding land that (by international law) doesn't even belong to them? " Op asked why Israel rejected it. I haven't become the Israeli foreign minister overnight! | |||
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"Israel has shown over the years that they have no intension of returning any land or conceding any borders they currently have let alone back to 67 or 47. They have one objective and that is to ethnically cleanse the area of Palestinians. After all it was promised to the "chosen ones" by god and that seems like a good enough reason in the 21st century apparently." Whatever Israel does it will never be enough. | |||
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"Israel has shown over the years that they have no intension of returning any land or conceding any borders they currently have let alone back to 67 or 47. They have one objective and that is to ethnically cleanse the area of Palestinians. After all it was promised to the "chosen ones" by god and that seems like a good enough reason in the 21st century apparently. Whatever Israel does it will never be enough." . Giving dignity and self determination to 3 million people on their own land would be a start. And if their still bombing you then fair play, but occupying someone else's land withholding basic necessities like water, medicine, electric, controlling their movement and their livelihoods and then saying "hey there bombing us" ... Well no shit Sherlock | |||
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"Israel has shown over the years that they have no intension of returning any land or conceding any borders they currently have let alone back to 67 or 47. They have one objective and that is to ethnically cleanse the area of Palestinians. After all it was promised to the "chosen ones" by god and that seems like a good enough reason in the 21st century apparently. Whatever Israel does it will never be enough.. Giving dignity and self determination to 3 million people on their own land would be a start. And if their still bombing you then fair play, but occupying someone else's land withholding basic necessities like water, medicine, electric, controlling their movement and their livelihoods and then saying "hey there bombing us" ... Well no shit Sherlock" 
Also let's mention that Israel have also found the U.S. backing extremely helpful too and if any other country behaved like Israel have, the shit would truly have hit the fan.... | |||
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"Israel has shown over the years that they have no intension of returning any land or conceding any borders they currently have let alone back to 67 or 47. They have one objective and that is to ethnically cleanse the area of Palestinians. After all it was promised to the "chosen ones" by god and that seems like a good enough reason in the 21st century apparently." The population of palestine gradually rises year on year so as ethnically cleansing goes Israel are doing a pretty shit job. | |||
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"Lovely. Yet another thread showing who to block." Yep I think you will be blocked! | |||
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"I accept political naivety - I'm not an expert. However, all sides recognise that there's a problem in that region... France is producing a plan, Jordan just has made a proposal. Israel called it a gimmick. My question is, officially at least, what do Israel want? Are the 1967 borders off the table completely? What does that say about the UN? " Its a cluster fuck all round and will bleed like an open sore with little or no chance of it healing. I am off to start a thread about God................ | |||
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"Lovely. Yet another thread showing who to block.Yep I think you will be blocked! " Excellent, much appreciated!  | |||
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"Israel has shown over the years that they have no intension of returning any land or conceding any borders they currently have let alone back to 67 or 47. They have one objective and that is to ethnically cleanse the area of Palestinians. After all it was promised to the "chosen ones" by god and that seems like a good enough reason in the 21st century apparently. The population of palestine gradually rises year on year so as ethnically cleansing goes Israel are doing a pretty shit job. " that's just the eugenics of industrialisation over third world.ie Africa and India population has been increasing for years regardless of HIV, Ebola, malaria, Dengue fever, famine, war etc etc where as countries like Japan and Europe have falling populations even though we have much less people dying from such extremes. If you look at what the US did with the native Americans, stolen land, cutting off the food supply, stopping travel rights, water rights.. It's exactly what Israel have done with Palestine for years. The trail of tears was an aptly named (movement of indigenous people by an invading foreigner claiming the land as theirs) by the Cherokee and is widely regarded as genocide and ethic cleansing in most modern day history books. | |||
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"Israel has shown over the years that they have no intension of returning any land or conceding any borders they currently have let alone back to 67 or 47. They have one objective and that is to ethnically cleanse the area of Palestinians. After all it was promised to the "chosen ones" by god and that seems like a good enough reason in the 21st century apparently. The population of palestine gradually rises year on year so as ethnically cleansing goes Israel are doing a pretty shit job. that's just the eugenics of industrialisation over third world.ie Africa and India population has been increasing for years regardless of HIV, Ebola, malaria, Dengue fever, famine, war etc etc where as countries like Japan and Europe have falling populations even though we have much less people dying from such extremes. If you look at what the US did with the native Americans, stolen land, cutting off the food supply, stopping travel rights, water rights.. It's exactly what Israel have done with Palestine for years. The trail of tears was an aptly named (movement of indigenous people by an invading foreigner claiming the land as theirs) by the Cherokee and is widely regarded as genocide and ethic cleansing in most modern day history books." There may indeed be a case of the Americans ethnically cleansing the native Americans as many tribes were wiped out but to say Israel is doing it is just using emotive language. | |||
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"Israel has shown over the years that they have no intension of returning any land or conceding any borders they currently have let alone back to 67 or 47. They have one objective and that is to ethnically cleanse the area of Palestinians. After all it was promised to the "chosen ones" by god and that seems like a good enough reason in the 21st century apparently. The population of palestine gradually rises year on year so as ethnically cleansing goes Israel are doing a pretty shit job. that's just the eugenics of industrialisation over third world.ie Africa and India population has been increasing for years regardless of HIV, Ebola, malaria, Dengue fever, famine, war etc etc where as countries like Japan and Europe have falling populations even though we have much less people dying from such extremes. If you look at what the US did with the native Americans, stolen land, cutting off the food supply, stopping travel rights, water rights.. It's exactly what Israel have done with Palestine for years. The trail of tears was an aptly named (movement of indigenous people by an invading foreigner claiming the land as theirs) by the Cherokee and is widely regarded as genocide and ethic cleansing in most modern day history books. There may indeed be a case of the Americans ethnically cleansing the native Americans as many tribes were wiped out but to say Israel is doing it is just using emotive language. " . Ethnic cleansing is not always about shooting people. It's just about making life so difficult that indigenous people fuck of somewhere else (in Palestine's case it's pretty hard as the entire country is cut off from people leaving!. The vast majority of ethic cleansing like Bosnia, Jews in Germany, native Americans, Africans and the boars just involved fucking people off else where and then murdering the ones who refuse! | |||
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"Israel has shown over the years that they have no intension of returning any land or conceding any borders they currently have let alone back to 67 or 47. They have one objective and that is to ethnically cleanse the area of Palestinians. After all it was promised to the "chosen ones" by god and that seems like a good enough reason in the 21st century apparently. The population of palestine gradually rises year on year so as ethnically cleansing goes Israel are doing a pretty shit job. that's just the eugenics of industrialisation over third world.ie Africa and India population has been increasing for years regardless of HIV, Ebola, malaria, Dengue fever, famine, war etc etc where as countries like Japan and Europe have falling populations even though we have much less people dying from such extremes. If you look at what the US did with the native Americans, stolen land, cutting off the food supply, stopping travel rights, water rights.. It's exactly what Israel have done with Palestine for years. The trail of tears was an aptly named (movement of indigenous people by an invading foreigner claiming the land as theirs) by the Cherokee and is widely regarded as genocide and ethic cleansing in most modern day history books. There may indeed be a case of the Americans ethnically cleansing the native Americans as many tribes were wiped out but to say Israel is doing it is just using emotive language. . Ethnic cleansing is not always about shooting people. It's just about making life so difficult that indigenous people fuck of somewhere else (in Palestine's case it's pretty hard as the entire country is cut off from people leaving!. The vast majority of ethic cleansing like Bosnia, Jews in Germany, native Americans, Africans and the boars just involved fucking people off else where and then murdering the ones who refuse!" In Donegal after Irish independence in the 1920s to date or border regions of N Ireland in the 1970s to date, or in Londonderry 1970s to date | |||
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"Israel has shown over the years that they have no intension of returning any land or conceding any borders they currently have let alone back to 67 or 47. They have one objective and that is to ethnically cleanse the area of Palestinians. After all it was promised to the "chosen ones" by god and that seems like a good enough reason in the 21st century apparently. The population of palestine gradually rises year on year so as ethnically cleansing goes Israel are doing a pretty shit job. that's just the eugenics of industrialisation over third world.ie Africa and India population has been increasing for years regardless of HIV, Ebola, malaria, Dengue fever, famine, war etc etc where as countries like Japan and Europe have falling populations even though we have much less people dying from such extremes. If you look at what the US did with the native Americans, stolen land, cutting off the food supply, stopping travel rights, water rights.. It's exactly what Israel have done with Palestine for years. The trail of tears was an aptly named (movement of indigenous people by an invading foreigner claiming the land as theirs) by the Cherokee and is widely regarded as genocide and ethic cleansing in most modern day history books. There may indeed be a case of the Americans ethnically cleansing the native Americans as many tribes were wiped out but to say Israel is doing it is just using emotive language. . Ethnic cleansing is not always about shooting people. It's just about making life so difficult that indigenous people fuck of somewhere else (in Palestine's case it's pretty hard as the entire country is cut off from people leaving!. The vast majority of ethic cleansing like Bosnia, Jews in Germany, native Americans, Africans and the boars just involved fucking people off else where and then murdering the ones who refuse!" So as I said earlier the Israelis are doing a poor job as the Palestinians are not fucking off elsewhere and their population is rising so they are not all being murdered. | |||
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"I understand that it's an annual thing for the U.S. and a few small islands to reject UN resolutions/proposals concerning Palestine. My question is why? The Jordanian proposal SEEMS reasonable though I've only read the BBC's readers digest version. Essentially Jordan wishes Israel to consider not building anymore settlements in occupied territories (or disputed territories according to Israel) and to return to the 1967 borders with both sharing Jerusalem as a capital. Are those things unreasonable - so much so that Israel completely rejects them? Confuzzled. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-30543138" They won't do that the 1967 border left the Israelis without the high ground and vulnerable to mortar attack etc. Something needs to be done but it won't too many want the hostilities. | |||
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 ... Who'd have guessed | |||
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"Israel has shown over the years that they have no intension of returning any land or conceding any borders they currently have let alone back to 67 or 47. They have one objective and that is to ethnically cleanse the area of Palestinians. After all it was promised to the "chosen ones" by god and that seems like a good enough reason in the 21st century apparently. Whatever Israel does it will never be enough." What they need to do is live by international law. Like everyone else. That would stop a lot of Muslim resentment towards western foreign policy. Which is back Israel m fuck everyone else. | |||
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"Israel has shown over the years that they have no intension of returning any land or conceding any borders they currently have let alone back to 67 or 47. They have one objective and that is to ethnically cleanse the area of Palestinians. After all it was promised to the "chosen ones" by god and that seems like a good enough reason in the 21st century apparently. Whatever Israel does it will never be enough. What they need to do is live by international law. Like everyone else. That would stop a lot of Muslim resentment towards western foreign policy. Which is back Israel m fuck everyone else." Not saying that Israeli actions are always justified but Arabic counties' foreign policies do tend to be DON'T back Israel and fuck anyone else. I deliberately avoid equating Muslim and Arabic as there are millions of Muslim Russians, or Muslim Chinese or Muslim Britons. | |||
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"Israel has shown over the years that they have no intension of returning any land or conceding any borders they currently have let alone back to 67 or 47. They have one objective and that is to ethnically cleanse the area of Palestinians. After all it was promised to the "chosen ones" by god and that seems like a good enough reason in the 21st century apparently. Whatever Israel does it will never be enough. What they need to do is live by international law. Like everyone else. That would stop a lot of Muslim resentment towards western foreign policy. Which is back Israel m fuck everyone else. Not saying that Israeli actions are always justified but Arabic counties' foreign policies do tend to be DON'T back Israel and fuck anyone else. I deliberately avoid equating Muslim and Arabic as there are millions of Muslim Russians, or Muslim Chinese or Muslim Britons." . The most anti Israel country isn't Arabic though | |||
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"So?" . But they are Muslim, so why did you equate Arabs to disliking Israelis when it's much likely to be Muslims and not Arabs? | |||
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"So?. But they are Muslim, so why did you equate Arabs to disliking Israelis when it's much likely to be Muslims and not Arabs?" Indonesia is Muslim. Niger is Muslim. Neither is particularly significant in terms of Israel, but I concede I would have been better to say Arabic and Pakistani and Afghani and Persian | |||
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"Israel has shown over the years that they have no intension of returning any land or conceding any borders they currently have let alone back to 67 or 47. They have one objective and that is to ethnically cleanse the area of Palestinians. After all it was promised to the "chosen ones" by god and that seems like a good enough reason in the 21st century apparently. Whatever Israel does it will never be enough." Anything at all would be something and I am sure a few million Palestinians would like to have their homeland back but I guess they would settle (excuse the pun) for not being being erased from the planet. | |||
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"Israel has shown over the years that they have no intension of returning any land or conceding any borders they currently have let alone back to 67 or 47. They have one objective and that is to ethnically cleanse the area of Palestinians. After all it was promised to the "chosen ones" by god and that seems like a good enough reason in the 21st century apparently. Whatever Israel does it will never be enough. Anything at all would be something and I am sure a few million Palestinians would like to have their homeland back but I guess they would settle (excuse the pun) for not being being erased from the planet." Actually the whole point is that they didn't settle for not being erased. (Not saying they should have or that the option was given to them.) | |||
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" There may indeed be a case of the Americans ethnically cleansing the native Americans as many tribes were wiped out but to say Israel is doing it is just using emotive language. " Firstly I don't think there is the slightest doubt what American immigrant settlers did to the Native American peoples. They removed them from their homelands and hunting territories, herded them into refugee camps and then proceeded to make life so intolerable the Native Americans erupted into full scale armed uprisings. Foe which they were systematically butchered. I am left wondering exactly what the difference is between what the US did to Native Americans and what the US has been doing behind Israel to the Native Arabs.... What the Israelis have been doing to the people in Ghaza for decades is worse than what the Nazis did the the Polish Jews in Warsaw. And what makes it even more disgusting? Because the Israelis play the Holocaust card at the drop of a tin of gunpowder. And once again I am in total agreement with 'sexy-bum'... | |||
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"So?. But they are Muslim, so why did you equate Arabs to disliking Israelis when it's much likely to be Muslims and not Arabs? Indonesia is Muslim. Niger is Muslim. Neither is particularly significant in terms of Israel, but I concede I would have been better to say Arabic and Pakistani and Afghani and Persian" the iranians aren't Arabic either but they seem to be Israels number 1 enemy. If I were Iranian I'd be more worried about Saudi Arabia than Israel mind. | |||
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" Actually the whole point is that they didn't settle for not being erased. (Not saying they should have or that the option was given to them.)" Quite right they haven't. Yet. But my statement wasn't a final summary .. Israel WILL erase them unless the USA says 'enough'. And they won't because of the grip Zionist money has on US politics. Christ there are floors of the US State Department dedicated to Israel and staffed by Israelis. US Foreign Policy is dictated by Israel at every turn. | |||
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" There may indeed be a case of the Americans ethnically cleansing the native Americans as many tribes were wiped out but to say Israel is doing it is just using emotive language. Firstly I don't think there is the slightest doubt what American immigrant settlers did to the Native American peoples. They removed them from their homelands and hunting territories, herded them into refugee camps and then proceeded to make life so intolerable the Native Americans erupted into full scale armed uprisings. Foe which they were systematically butchered. I am left wondering exactly what the difference is between what the US did to Native Americans and what the US has been doing behind Israel to the Native Arabs.... What the Israelis have been doing to the people in Ghaza for decades is worse than what the Nazis did the the Polish Jews in Warsaw. And what makes it even more disgusting? Because the Israelis play the Holocaust card at the drop of a tin of gunpowder. And once again I am in total agreement with 'sexy-bum'... "I agree that the treatment of the Native Americans was ethnic cleansing, even if it was mostly unintentional. The US authorities considered the natives as sub human, just as the Nazis considered Jews. Even if you consider Israeli action, in Ghaza, as ethnic cleansing, I don't think saying they are worse than the Nazis is sensible. It makes any statements about Palestinians suffering just incredible | |||
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" Even if you consider Israeli action, in Ghaza, as ethnic cleansing, I don't think saying they are worse than the Nazis is sensible. It makes any statements about Palestinians suffering just incredible" I think it is much worse for 3 reasons: a) The Jewish State should know better simply because of the Holocaust. b) Israel has treated Palestinians like this for 68 years. c) It is totally contrary to all post WWII legislation and International accords. (Which came about BECAUSE of the Holocaust!) | |||
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" Even if you consider Israeli action, in Ghaza, as ethnic cleansing, I don't think saying they are worse than the Nazis is sensible. It makes any statements about Palestinians suffering just incredible I think it is much worse for 3 reasons: a) The Jewish State should know better simply because of the Holocaust. b) Israel has treated Palestinians like this for 68 years. c) It is totally contrary to all post WWII legislation and International accords. (Which came about BECAUSE of the Holocaust!)" I agree with point a I think b combined with point a, it makes it worse I disagree with c. If something is bad and ilegal it's not worse than something that was done that was so evil it had never been contemplated. I can see your argument but in my view the sheer scale of the Nazis atrocities has not been equalled; even in Cambodia or Bosnia. | |||
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"The systematic removal of a people from a land is the very definition of ethnic cleansing and when the British gave the land of Palestine away - this is what is documented to have happened. The illegal settlements are a continuation of this. I wish the past could be forgotten, at least for the purpose of negotiations, and the two countries could figure out a just compromise. The 0.5 million settlers aren't going anywhere - nor are the Gazans. It feels as though the U.S. see Israel as being too strategically important a little like how we, or the British Eatablishment, at least, view Chagos - which was also pretty much ethnically cleansed by us in the 80's. *sigh" Thought it was the 70s but it was appalling. Not many people noticed it because they didn't blow people up. Violence doesn't work does it! | |||
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" Even if you consider Israeli action, in Ghaza, as ethnic cleansing, I don't think saying they are worse than the Nazis is sensible. It makes any statements about Palestinians suffering just incredible I think it is much worse for 3 reasons: a) The Jewish State should know better simply because of the Holocaust. b) Israel has treated Palestinians like this for 68 years. c) It is totally contrary to all post WWII legislation and International accords. (Which came about BECAUSE of the Holocaust!) I agree with point a I think b combined with point a, it makes it worse I disagree with c. If something is bad and ilegal it's not worse than something that was done that was so evil it had never been contemplated. I can see your argument but in my view the sheer scale of the Nazis atrocities has not been equalled; even in Cambodia or Bosnia." Not yet but we are still counting  | |||
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"The systematic removal of a people from a land is the very definition of ethnic cleansing and when the British gave the land of Palestine away - this is what is documented to have happened. The illegal settlements are a continuation of this." Whoaaa ... the British did what? Can we just back up here please? The British didn't 'own' anything in Palestine to 'give away'! We were the Internationally agreed Mandated Protecting Power in Palestine and had been since 1916. Yes we (as in Balfour Declaration) allowed for progressive Jewish immigration. Indeed there had been Jews, Muslims and Christians living peacably together there for hundreds of years. So for 30+ years including a World War we British kept Palestine safe. And it cost us over 740 British lives to do so. But what ACTUALLY happened in '47 and '48 was that the USA funded the Stern Gang terrorists and their Zionist brethren to murder British soldiers and policemen, Arabs and Christians and anyone else who disagreed with the Zionist view of Jewish supremacy. They flooded the Arab neighbourhoods with European Jews who had never had anything to do with Palestine and started the bloodiest 'Jihad' accompanied by murderous ethnic cleansing. And then the USA strongarmed the UN to recognise the new Jewish State of Israel in '48. So my friend Britain 'gave' nothing except blood and sweat and guts protecting the innocent Arabs regardless of their religion. To say we did otherwise insults every one of those 740+ dead. | |||
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" Even if you consider Israeli action, in Ghaza, as ethnic cleansing, I don't think saying they are worse than the Nazis is sensible. It makes any statements about Palestinians suffering just incredible I think it is much worse for 3 reasons: a) The Jewish State should know better simply because of the Holocaust. b) Israel has treated Palestinians like this for 68 years. c) It is totally contrary to all post WWII legislation and International accords. (Which came about BECAUSE of the Holocaust!) I agree with point a I think b combined with point a, it makes it worse I disagree with c. If something is bad and ilegal it's not worse than something that was done that was so evil it had never been contemplated. I can see your argument but in my view the sheer scale of the Nazis atrocities has not been equalled; even in Cambodia or Bosnia. Not yet but we are still counting ". Actually they estimated the US killed twice the amount the Nazis did at around at least ten million native Americans over a 15 year period. Never mind the 15 million others who were forced onto other less productive land and died of sheer hunger. And don't forget after the revolutionary war there was 100s of thousands of settlers and native Americans who stayed loyal to the British and were relocated to Canada and given land for fighting for us. | |||
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" Whoaaa ... the British did what? Can we just back up here please? The British didn't 'own' anything in Palestine to 'give away'! We were the Internationally agreed Mandated Protecting Power in Palestine and had been since 1916. Yes we (as in Balfour Declaration) allowed for progressive Jewish immigration. Indeed there had been Jews, Muslims and Christians living peacably together there for hundreds of years. So for 30+ years including a World War we British kept Palestine safe. And it cost us over 740 British lives to do so. But what ACTUALLY happened in '47 and '48 was that the USA funded the Stern Gang terrorists and their Zionist brethren to murder British soldiers and policemen, Arabs and Christians and anyone else who disagreed with the Zionist view of Jewish supremacy. They flooded the Arab neighbourhoods with European Jews who had never had anything to do with Palestine and started the bloodiest 'Jihad' accompanied by murderous ethnic cleansing. And then the USA strongarmed the UN to recognise the new Jewish State of Israel in '48. So my friend Britain 'gave' nothing except blood and sweat and guts protecting the innocent Arabs regardless of their religion. To say we did otherwise insults every one of those 740+ dead." Thank you | |||
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" Even if you consider Israeli action, in Ghaza, as ethnic cleansing, I don't think saying they are worse than the Nazis is sensible. It makes any statements about Palestinians suffering just incredible I think it is much worse for 3 reasons: a) The Jewish State should know better simply because of the Holocaust. b) Israel has treated Palestinians like this for 68 years. c) It is totally contrary to all post WWII legislation and International accords. (Which came about BECAUSE of the Holocaust!) I agree with point a I think b combined with point a, it makes it worse I disagree with c. If something is bad and ilegal it's not worse than something that was done that was so evil it had never been contemplated. I can see your argument but in my view the sheer scale of the Nazis atrocities has not been equalled; even in Cambodia or Bosnia. Not yet but we are still counting .
Actually they estimated the US killed twice the amount the Nazis did at around at least ten million native Americans over a 15 year period. Never mind the 15 million others who were forced onto other less productive land and died of sheer hunger.
And don't forget after the revolutionary war there was 100s of thousands of settlers and native Americans who stayed loyal to the British and were relocated to Canada and given land for fighting for us."Death's due to the Nazis was in the region of 50 million and dwarfs any other genocide, (even Stalin's). That doesn't make another ethnic cleansing justifiable, from hundreds in Northern Ireland to thousands in Bosnia. All wrong. | |||
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" Even if you consider Israeli action, in Ghaza, as ethnic cleansing, I don't think saying they are worse than the Nazis is sensible. It makes any statements about Palestinians suffering just incredible I think it is much worse for 3 reasons: a) The Jewish State should know better simply because of the Holocaust. b) Israel has treated Palestinians like this for 68 years. c) It is totally contrary to all post WWII legislation and International accords. (Which came about BECAUSE of the Holocaust!) I agree with point a I think b combined with point a, it makes it worse I disagree with c. If something is bad and ilegal it's not worse than something that was done that was so evil it had never been contemplated. I can see your argument but in my view the sheer scale of the Nazis atrocities has not been equalled; even in Cambodia or Bosnia. Not yet but we are still counting .
Actually they estimated the US killed twice the amount the Nazis did at around at least ten million native Americans over a 15 year period. Never mind the 15 million others who were forced onto other less productive land and died of sheer hunger.
And don't forget after the revolutionary war there was 100s of thousands of settlers and native Americans who stayed loyal to the British and were relocated to Canada and given land for fighting for us.
Death's due to the Nazis was in the region of 50 million and dwarfs any other genocide, (even Stalin's).
That doesn't make another ethnic cleansing justifiable, from hundreds in Northern Ireland to thousands in Bosnia. All wrong."the thing with Stalin tho is we probably don't know the full truth ! | |||
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